imc indymedia

Los Angeles Indymedia : Activist News

white themeblack themered themetheme help
About Us Contact Us Calendar Publish RSS
Features
latest news
best of news
syndication
commentary


KILLRADIO

VozMob

ABCF LA

A-Infos Radio

Indymedia On Air

Dope-X-Resistance-LA List

LAAMN List




IMC Network:

Original Cities

www.indymedia.org africa: ambazonia canarias estrecho / madiaq kenya nigeria south africa canada: hamilton london, ontario maritimes montreal ontario ottawa quebec thunder bay vancouver victoria windsor winnipeg east asia: burma jakarta japan korea manila qc europe: abruzzo alacant andorra antwerpen armenia athens austria barcelona belarus belgium belgrade bristol brussels bulgaria calabria croatia cyprus emilia-romagna estrecho / madiaq euskal herria galiza germany grenoble hungary ireland istanbul italy la plana liege liguria lille linksunten lombardia london madrid malta marseille nantes napoli netherlands nice northern england norway oost-vlaanderen paris/Île-de-france patras piemonte poland portugal roma romania russia saint-petersburg scotland sverige switzerland thessaloniki torun toscana toulouse ukraine united kingdom valencia latin america: argentina bolivia chiapas chile chile sur cmi brasil colombia ecuador mexico peru puerto rico qollasuyu rosario santiago tijuana uruguay valparaiso venezuela venezuela oceania: adelaide aotearoa brisbane burma darwin jakarta manila melbourne perth qc sydney south asia: india mumbai united states: arizona arkansas asheville atlanta austin baltimore big muddy binghamton boston buffalo charlottesville chicago cleveland colorado columbus dc hawaii houston hudson mohawk kansas city la madison maine miami michigan milwaukee minneapolis/st. paul new hampshire new jersey new mexico new orleans north carolina north texas nyc oklahoma philadelphia pittsburgh portland richmond rochester rogue valley saint louis san diego san francisco san francisco bay area santa barbara santa cruz, ca sarasota seattle tampa bay tennessee urbana-champaign vermont western mass worcester west asia: armenia beirut israel palestine process: fbi/legal updates mailing lists process & imc docs tech volunteer projects: print radio satellite tv video regions: oceania united states topics: biotech

Surviving Cities

www.indymedia.org africa: canada: quebec east asia: japan europe: athens barcelona belgium bristol brussels cyprus germany grenoble ireland istanbul lille linksunten nantes netherlands norway portugal united kingdom latin america: argentina cmi brasil rosario oceania: aotearoa united states: austin big muddy binghamton boston chicago columbus la michigan nyc portland rochester saint louis san diego san francisco bay area santa cruz, ca tennessee urbana-champaign worcester west asia: palestine process: fbi/legal updates process & imc docs projects: radio satellite tv
printable version - js reader version - view hidden posts - tags and related articles

View article without comments

SHERMAN AUSTIN SENTENCED TO ONE YEAR IN FEDERAL PRISON

by R Wednesday, Aug. 06, 2003 at 4:50 PM

.

SHERMAN AUSTIN SENTENCED TO ONE YEAR IN FEDERAL PRISON

Sherman Austin, webmaster of RaisetheFist.com, was sentenced today, August 4, 2003, to one year in federal prison, with three years of probation. Judge Wilson shocked the courtroom when he went against the recommendation of not only the prosecution, but the FBI and the Justice Department, who had asked that Austin be sentenced to 4 months in prison, and 4 months in a half-way house, with 3 years of probation.

Austin's probation stipulates, among other things, that (1) he cannot possess or access a computer of any kind without prior approval of his probation officer, (2) if his probation officer gives permission, the equipment is subject to monitoring and is subject to search and seizure at any time, without notice, (3) he cannot alter any of the software or hardware on any computer he uses, (4) he must surrender his phone, DSL, electric, and satellite bills, (5) he cannot associate with any person or group that seeks to change the government in any way (be that environmental, social justice, political, economic, etc.), and (6) he must pay over ,000 in fines and restitution. Austin must surrender himself to the Federal Bureau of Prisons by September 3, 2003.



FROM SHERMAN AUSTIN:

On Jan 24, 2002 , my home was surrounded and raided by approximately 25 heavily armed FBI and Secret Service agents in one of the governments first attempts to exercise the new US Patriot Act. I was interrogated for several hours while they ransacked my room and they seized a network of computers which I used to run my web site raisethefist.com. They also seized protest signs, and political literature. Their excuse was a protest guide (which I didn't author) that was posted to my site which a small portion contained information on explosives. The FBI had been monitoring the site long before this was ever posted, and long before Sept 11. The "explosives information" on my site (again which I didn't author) doesn't compare to what you an find on any other web sites such as howthingswork.com, Loompanics.com, Bombshock.com, Totse.com, Amazon.com, or the many neo nazi web sites which cover everything from assassinations, explosives, fraud and firearms. It's obvious a web surfer interested in making a bomb or taking part in other extra-illegal activities would not have to rely on Raisethefist.com. So how could the "bomb making information" on raisethefist.com be a concern to authorities? It wasn't a concern, it was simply used an excuse to exercise the new Patriot Act and take down the site. And that's what they did when federal agents spent 5-6 hours interrogating me while they disassembled each computer one by one , mirrored each hard drive, then loaded everything into a big white truck. During this whole process I was told I wasn't going to be arrested, and that I could even leave if I wanted to. Once the agents finished packing everything up, Special Agent John I. Pi, who was conducting the investigation and raid said that I had crossed a line, and as long as I got back on the other side of that line I'd be okay.

A week later despite what happened I still continued with my plans to attend the demonstration against the World Economic Forum in NY. As I was waiting for the march to begin, a swarm of NYPD officers rushed straight at me and scooped up about 26 people, one of which was me. We sat on a bus for 7 hours before being taken to Brooklyn Navy Yard Jail. I was there for about 30 hours before I was taken out of my cell and put into a backroom in handcuffs and interrogated once again by the FBI and Secret Service for several hours. They asked me questions such as if I was a terrorist or involved in any terrorist organizations. During the interrogation I noticed more and more agents walking through the room. I was told I wouldn't leave custody unless they searched my car. I said I had nothing to hide and simply wanted to go home. Stressed and aggravated, I signed over my keys. A few minutes later I was driven to the court and released. As I was waiting for someone to pick me up, about 5 FBI agents entered the court and said I was arrested for "distribution of information related to explosives over the internet". One of the agents grabbed my neck and told me to shut the fuck up while I tried to tell one of the legal observers I was being arrested. I was hurried out of the court house into a black SUV where I was driven to a federal building. I was then taken to lower Manhattan MCC maximum security 24 hour lockdown federal jail facility. At my bail hearing the FBI called me a "man on a mission" and said I drove 3,000 miles to carry out my alleged "plot". The judge said I was a "threat to the community" and denied me bail, and I was to be extradited back to California to face my charges. After 11 days I was shackled and taken to an airforce base where federal inmates are boarded onto planes surrounded by guards with M16's and shot guns, like prisoners of war, and flown to a federal jail "hub" in Oklahoma. Once I got there, I learned the next day that the prosecutors decided not to file an indictment. I was released after spending 13 days in custody. When I got back to Los Angeles I put raisethefist.com back up almost immediately. I continued my political organizing within the community, as well as my work with Raise the Fist which developed into a Direct Action Network with chapters setup around the world. 6 months later prosecutors contacted my lawyer and said they found nothing to prosecute me for on my computers, but didn't want to "let me off the hook". They offered me a pre-indictment binding plea agreement which was initially 1 month in jail, and 5 months in a "community corrections facility". I rejected the plea at first, wanting to go to trial until we discovered the case was eligible for a terrorism enhancement, which could have added 20 years to my sentence.

I therefore decided to enter a plea. I played months of legal limbo until I finally expected to get sentenced to 4 months in jail and 4 months in a community corrections facility based on the final pre-sentencing report written by the USPO. The judge rejected the 4 months saying what kind of an example would it set for "future revolutionaries" wanting to act in the same manner. He stated he wanted to give me at least 8-10 months but first wanted the opinion of the Justice Department and the Director of the FBI in Washington, DC (Robert Muller). My sentencing was rescheduled several times until August 4th. I was convicted for felony; distribution of information related to explosives with intent, and sentenced to 1 year in federal prison with 3 years supervised release.

Distribution of information related to explosives is not illegal.. What's illegal is the INTENT part. They have to prove you have intent to use the information to cause further crime of violence .. and how do they prove intent? I think Bush made it clear when he said "you're either with me or against me".

Remember, fascism and a police state doesn't come all at once, it comes piece by piece.

How far will we allow it go until we are all locked up in concentration camps.

If we don't take matters into our own hands and do something about this now, then we are already prisoners of war.

Raisethefist.com is not shutting down, and the RTF Direct Action Network will continue to grow and remain active. A 1 year sentence is not the end of this. It's just the begining.

Report this post as:

..

by Chantel G. Wednesday, Aug. 06, 2003 at 5:02 PM
liveiranlive@riseup.net

Sherman, I cannot tell you how much my heart was hurting yesterday, the injustice that's happening is so vile and beyond words

but anyone that spends any time with you or knows you like myself and the ones you care about do clearly are able to see that you are one of the most loving and decent human beings. You have so much care and concern for the world around you, you would never hurt one person, you would never want to inflict pain on another. I know this about you, because you are such a gentle person, and almost everything that you touch and do is out of concern and love.

You've been like a little brother to me, and I have enjoyed being around you every chance that i've had and know that there will be so much more. Your love and passion inspires me, and I know how much care you are capable of. Your mom should be so proud to raise a son like you, and im in turn very lucky to have you as a friend.

I cannot imagine what you are going through, but i know you are remaining clam because you have never been one to lash out either. I want your mom to know what an incredible job she has done to raise a man like you that cares, is able to give love and be so unselfish in his actions. I know she's hurting, so much more than the rest of us, and that hurts even more.

I want you to know that you not only have our support but the support of so many all over the world who are just hearing about this case. Even people who are not activists, and are still disgusted by this, they cannot believe it's happening.

I remember when you first got locked up in New York over this issue, I remember talking to your attorney half a dozen times a day and how frantic all of us were, at that time you had my love and support, and you have it even more today. Were all here for you, your loved ones, your friends, your family. Were in this together till the end, you are not and you will not be alone. Keep your head up and forget all the haters, ignore them and push their nasty words away from you.

keep your head up, you will come through this even stronger and with more care.

i love you/we love you -Chantel-



"It's said that anarchists live in a world of dreams to come & do not see the things that happen today We see them too well, & in their true colors, and that's what makes us carry the hatchet into the forests of prejudices that beset us." --P.Kropotkin

Report this post as:

Sherman Austin.....

by lynx-13 Wednesday, Aug. 06, 2003 at 6:03 PM

i guess we can count on cowardly 'KOBE SBM' to avoid upsetting the authorities at all times....

women all around the world have infinitely more courage every single day.

standing up to oppression takes courage. Austin's enemies have yet to show any understanding of this elementary moral concept.

will someone step up and engage in the discussion that 'black-block-head' avoided?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anticrisis

lynx

latest comments

Report this post as:

bored by 'Anna from KOBE'....

by 5yrold Wednesday, Aug. 06, 2003 at 6:58 PM

blablablablablablabla

get to the point 'Anna from KOBE'....

you're wasting our time.

will someone step up and engage in the discussion that 'black-block-head' avoided?

Report this post as:

I'll miss you Sherm

by Soy Wednesday, Aug. 06, 2003 at 7:16 PM

Personally I felt the judge completly ignored request by the prosecution and

defense for a four month jail sentence and four month community

confinement.Even the justice dept. and fbi head agreed. The judge seemed

headstrong and only seemed to see theopportunity for the trouncing example

he felt he would set to deter future

revolutionaries from acting in the same manner.

I even thought the 4+4 months were harsh for simply having a link, which

Sherman Austing did not author. The information in the link could be found

in many other sites like amazon, bookstore, library, anarchist cook book,

steal this book, howthingswork.com, etc.

The 12months + 3years probations and a ,100 fine is Bull Shit!!! Some of

you might have probably met Sherman or heard him give a speech or probably

never heard of him before, but he is one of the most helpful and caring

people you'll ever meet. He's really laid back, non-aggressive, and peaceful

young idealistic man.Everytime I'm with him he's never shown anger, except

at the court sentencing. Even then he still remained calm and focused.

Yesterday's hearing hurt everyone around him. everyone seemed to be in

disbelief.

Yesterday's hearing hurt everyone around him. We all were in disbelief.

Seeing the fbi agents leaving the court with a huge smile on their faces was

revolting.

I will miss him and will stay with him while he's in, helping him any way I

can and ask any of you interested to help raise money for his fines, write

to him, organize someting against the patriot act, etc. You can e-mail me

at Herstory17@sbcglobal.net if you wanna help put something together.

STrenght and Love to shermn and all those also affected by all the

injusttice.

Report this post as:

Wah. fucking WAH.

by Smiling FBI Agents Wednesday, Aug. 06, 2003 at 7:24 PM

"Yesterday's hearing hurt everyone around him. We all were in disbelief.

Seeing the fbi agents leaving the court with a huge smile on their faces was

revolting. "

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The fucking dude is an ANARCHIST! That fact alone warrants severe and swift action in the most powerful NATION on earth. Nations are run by GOVERNMENTS. Anarchists and other anti-government groups are a virus to our nation. The FBI are our antibodies.

PUT ALL OF YOU FUCKING GERMS IN JAIL!

Report this post as:

OneEyedMan

by KPC Wednesday, Aug. 06, 2003 at 7:36 PM

Uhh.....Sieg Heil, dude.....

Report this post as:

i don't get it

by john fish Wednesday, Aug. 06, 2003 at 7:42 PM

what was the actual crime?

It's b.s. if he was sentenced for being an anarchist.

Report this post as:

The real crime

by Mumia Abu-Jamal Wednesday, Aug. 06, 2003 at 11:16 PM

Sherman Austin's real crime was telling the truth about the American evil Empire. All of this bullshit propaganda that Austin's site was linked to bombmaking sites is a canard that American Brownshirts like some of the posters above hide behind.

All of the bomb-making sites that Austin linked to can be found on similiar NeoNazi and even mainstream websites. I don't see the Fascist Bureau of Interrogation prosecuting the owners of these websites.

Report this post as:

We will get around to them later.

by Smiling FBI Agents Thursday, Aug. 07, 2003 at 12:37 AM

One at a time, ordered by their threat factor.

Report this post as:

Boy! Smiling FBI agents are really tough!

by Scribblez Thursday, Aug. 07, 2003 at 1:09 AM

Wow, you guys are really tough. I bet you're proud to take out an 18 year old who likes to dress in black clothes and post messages on a WWW site that say, "FUCK THE PIGS!" I bet you couldn't sleep at night knowing that people all over the globe were reading these messages, huh?

So what's your next assignment now? Gonna go after some cancer patient who grows a marijuana plants in their basement for medicinal purposes and prosecute them as major narcotics traffickers?

By the way, while we are at it, where's Osama?

Report this post as:

by lynx-13 Thursday, Aug. 07, 2003 at 1:28 AM

i agree with Scribblez.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Dissemination of information on making explosives...."?

2,000+ in a fraction of a second

"....INTENT"?

"....whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive..... it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..... when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government....."

- - some corny hypocritical revolutionaries

will someone step up and engage in the discussion that 'black-block-head' avoided?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anticrisis

lynx

latest comments

Report this post as:

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander

by Spit in your Face Thursday, Aug. 07, 2003 at 2:06 AM

"whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive..... it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it"

LIKEWISE: When any form of protest or activism becomes destructive, it is the right of the Government to abolish them, send them to prison or spray pepper spray in their faces, take a piss on them and beat them to a pulp.

FUCK ANARCHISM

Report this post as:

Goose is good food

by Sy$teMF@iLuRe Thursday, Aug. 07, 2003 at 2:36 AM

SCUMBAG TRAITOR....

American? I doubt it, you sound like a totalitarian shithead.

How would you classify people like Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, or Madison?

This government is out of control of the people.

By the people and FOR the people.

The framers of the Constitution didnt believe the government should be overthrown for "light and transient causes".

THey believed that it was the RIGHT AND DUTY of every American to hold the torch of FREEDOM AND JUSTICE for their fellow Americans.

But they also knew that most people would rather sit back and continue to live in tyranny that to try to do somthing about it.

Just like brainwashed traitors like yourself.

ONE THING'S RIGHT: When any form of GOVERNMENT or CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS ABUSES become MAINSTREAM, it is the right of the PEOPLE to abolish them, send them to prison or spray pepper spray in their faces, take a piss on them and beat them to a pulp.

FUCK FASCISM

oh yeah,

AND FUCK YOU TOO.

(circle a)

Report this post as:

It will do Sherman good

by Rational Normal Person Thursday, Aug. 07, 2003 at 3:49 AM

It may teach him the benefits of having a system of government. A realisation of the reasons for having laws and a structured society.

The prison "Government" will protect his rights to eat a few times a day and will protect his rights to be free to express his self.

He is too small and feeble to survive an "Anarchist" revolt in a Federal prison.

Report this post as:

when is the price of progress too great?

by jeff buderer Friday, Aug. 08, 2003 at 12:57 AM
Jefbuder@earthlink.net 928.632.7135

We do have government, but it is not a government that is representative of the will of its people. That should be plainly obvious. However the people are so mind numbed by corporate propaganda that most people are not aware that they actually have a will or that the government that they believe represents them is actually funded by rich people whose vested interests are to subvert the will of the people! I am not even sure if people are unaware of what is going on. Mainstream people are easily distracted from the core issues by corporate and government elites.

The question is...in a society that sanctions violence as a means to solve problems...under what circumstances might we have legitimacy to disregard the state and rise up against it? Of course, those who feel it is their sacred duty to defend the status quo, no matter how corrupt, will seek to avoid the question. However, it is a relevant one, not only in the context of the US but that of a modern civilization that has subjugated the individual into the ideal capitalist mold of consumer and producer. As consumers, we have surrendered our autonomy and sovereignty to the corporate state apparatus.

Giving corporations the status of persons was important to the unspoken covenant with the American people. It was though this covenant (this unspoken social contract that came to be seen as America middle of the road pragmatism) that guaranteed American supremacy in the world. From this pragmatism, a fertile soil was cultivated from which to rapidly grow a modern American social architecture and commercial culture. It is upon these institutions and/or concepts of reality that the notion of mainstream now rests.

The usurping of power and sovereignty away from the people and towards corporate systems became seen as a necessary act, ensuring rapid economic development and modernization and the rise of American power in the world. Hence, the loss of true and authentic democratic process in America became another of the many prices that we have had to pay for modern material progress and well-being. The question we have as Americans and in fact all global citizens (all the world's people) is: has the price become too high?

Personally, I hope that the forces of nonviolence will prevail but realistically I see the writing on the wall...

Recent actions to justify preemptive strikes by our government against perceived enemies (domestically as well as internationally) only serve to reinforce the common held notion that violence coupled with a heavy does of arrogance and belligerence makes right. As more people see our own government as an army of occupation serving the rich and the powerful resentment rises and understandably so.

The corruption of our government mirrors the corruption of culture, our social structures and our view of life itself. Yet corruption is not something to be loathed for it the natural process of anything sick and weak to be degrade by parasitic organisms. The parasites are coming in for the kill, infesting the leading nation of a dying civilization without even a real awareness of what they are and their role in the larger social decay, which they live off. In many cases, they are convinced that they are the true patriots, and that what they do is for the good of all.

The problem though is not even the rich and the powerful and their selfish power addicted ways, it is our civilization and its corresponding worldview. Modern civilization is no longer relevant to the time we live in. The world has passed it by but it still lingers on unwilling to fundamentally alter its outlook and resulting patterns of behavior.

As the dying giant of modernity collapses, some of us realize that we live in a time of great potential. We should relish the moment for it is a tremendous opportunity that we have to finally create a world of our ideals that we never before in human history ever possible. Yet it is also a time of caution. Be careful of what you wish for! A collapse of the stock market and the larger economy will only solidify the rise of fascism in America. It is inevitable that the prevailing systems of mainstream America will deteriorate--that the center will not hold. The question is what is there to replace it?

The political and socioeconomic vacuum is ominous and the responsibility for this should not only be placed on the feet of those who defend the status quo, for it is that those who make up the antithesis the anti-establishment have made resistance into a holy war and have focused too much of their energy on destruction and criticism and not enough on building and create new processes of thinking and acting that would be necessary in order for any new paradigm to replace the dominant one.

We can only hope that those parts of the American and modern experiments that are worthwhile--the notion of justice, liberty, freedom, human rights and democracy will survive, but there is no guarantee particularly, if radicals on both the pro and anti-government sides gain the upper hand.



Report this post as:

Smiling FBI Agents

by Jeff Buderer Friday, Aug. 08, 2003 at 1:31 AM
jefbuder@earthlink.net

Threat factor? Sounds like FBI lingo but I am still not totally convinced you are really FBI agents. I'm curious about how you evaluated Sherman's threat factor?

I am not convinced that the FBI's "threat factor" is unbaised, but I do not expect it to be either. Law eforcement people are always more sympathetic to those on the right than those on the left, because they often share the same tactics and overall approach to solving social problems.

Apparently Sherman told the judge on Monday he ``wasn't really thinking'' when he created the Web site. Wasn't really thinking? He added``I'd be devastated if someone used this information to harm others.'



I think there is a lesson here. If you want to destroy the state then so be it, but you should carefully think about everything you do and be sure you are committed to it, and that your actions are consistent with your values.

I came here because there was headline that said someone was imprisoned for exercising their free speech rights. However when one promotes manuals on making explosives on the internet one should not be surprised when the FBI comes to arrest you.



Report this post as:

some Info

by Soy Friday, Aug. 08, 2003 at 4:47 AM

it is a very cruel sentenced imposed on sherman.

Any other judge would have probably been more understanding and would have

taken the prosecutions position with more consideration and looked deeper into the psychological evaluation.. THis judge seemed to

have involved his personal politics in this case. I wish I had a law Phd and

shove it down their throats for Sherms freedom.

Sherman did not author the reclaim guide. The reclaim guide(aka bomb making instructions) was a completely

different website that was actually written by a 15 year old white rich boy with republican parents. Why don't they go after him?

All sherm had was a link of the page on his site. There was more information than just explosive making instructions on the link, there was information on security culture.

If sherman would have had a private attorney and had money he'd pay his freedom, since that's the way the system seems to work.

American Justice by the dollar.



Many people reading about the story are being mislead with some info on the ap

press article. Sherman is displayed as an immature man with a stereotype of

a violent Anarchist. Its as though he is Hester from the Scarlett letter,

stigmatized by the letter A cirlcled. I personally know SHerman is not what

is potrayed in the media, but of course mainstream media needs ratings and

wing nuts need entertainment.

I deeply feel the effect of his sentence as I know his mother must be 20

times more devasted since she's known him all his life. It's hard not to

love the guy. Wilson's position on setting him as a plastic model of

punishment for future revolutionaries is vulgar to the full extense. A

heartless conservative disgrace, he could've at mentioned his motives.

Report this post as:

Threat factor

by Smiling FBI Agents Friday, Aug. 08, 2003 at 7:29 PM

"I'm curious about how you evaluated Sherman's threat factor"

Lets see....website, black, young, intelligent, American = POTENTIAL FOR SUCCESS

Threat Factor-1 (low)

In and of itself, those things are actually success factors. But when you change the variables as such:

ANARCHIST website, black ACTIVIST, young UNDISCIPLINED intelligent American = POTENTIAL FOR DISASTER

Threat Factor-8 (high)

If Albert Einstein had been a Nazi sympathizer, the world would be a very different place right now.

Report this post as:

PS

by Smiling FBI Agents Friday, Aug. 08, 2003 at 7:36 PM

We also love to suck on dogs dicks.

Report this post as:

????????????

by ???????????? Saturday, Aug. 09, 2003 at 6:44 PM

You sound like your experienced on the matter.

Report this post as:

if alberteinstein was?

by john fish Saturday, Aug. 09, 2003 at 11:29 PM

the fib-agent said: "If Albert Einstein had been a Nazi sympathizer..."

so sorry goof. ones like einy make this impossible.

Report this post as:

Why Socialism?

by Albert Einstein Sunday, Aug. 10, 2003 at 6:13 PM

By Albert Einstein

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Monthly Review, New York, May, 1949.

[Re-printed in Ideas and Opinions by Albert Einstein]

Transcribed by Joseph Woodard

Transformed to HTML format April 9, 1996 by Fredrik Bendz

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it advisable for one who is not an expert on economic and social issues to express views on the subject of socialism? I believe for a number of reasons that it is.

Let us first consider the question from the point of view of scientific knowledge. It might appear that there are no essential methodological differences between astronomy and economics: scientists in both fields attempt to discover laws of general acceptability for a circumscribed group of phenomena in order to make the interconnection of these phenomena as clearly understandable as possible. But in reality such methodological differences do exist. The discovery of general laws in the field of economics is made difficult by the circumstance that observed economic phenomena are often affected by many factors which are very hard to evaluate separately. In addition, the experience which has accumulated since the beginning of the so-called civilized period of human history has -- as is well known -- been largely influenced and limited by causes which are by no means exclusively economic in nature. For example, most of the major states of history owed their existence to conquest. The conquering peoples established themselves, legally and economically, as the privileged class of the conquered country. They seized for themselves a monopoly of the land ownership and appointed a priesthood from among their own ranks. The priests, in control of education, made the class division of society into a permanent institution and created a system of values by which the people were thenceforth, to a large extent unconsciously, guided in their social behavior.

But historic tradition is, so to speak, of yesterday; nowhere have we really overcome what Thorstein Veblen called "the predatory phase" of human development. The observable economic facts belong to that phase and even such laws as we can derive from them are not applicable to other phases. Since the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future.

Second, socialism is directed toward a social-ethical end. Science, however, cannot create ends and, even less, instill them in human beings; science, at most, can supply the means by which to attain certain ends. But the ends themselves are conceived by personalities with lofty ethical ideals and -- if these ends are not stillborn, but vital and vigorous -- are adopted and carried forward by those many human beings who, half-unconsciously, determine the slow evolution of society.

For these reasons, we should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society. Innumerable voices have been asserting for some time now that human society is passing through a crisis, that its stability has been gravely shattered. It is characteristic of such a situation that individuals feel indifferent or even hostile toward the group, small or large, to which they belong. In order to illustrate my meaning, let me record here a personal experience. I recently discussed with an intelligent and well-disposed man the threat of another war, which in my opinion would seriously endanger the existence of mankind, and I remarked that only a supranational organization would offer protection from that danger. Thereupon my visitor, very calmly and coolly, said to me: "Why are you so deeply opposed to the disappearance of the human race?"

I am sure that as little as a century ago no one would have so lightly made a statement of this kind. It is the statement of a man who has striven in vain to attain an equilibrium within himself and has more or less lost hope of succeeding. It is the expression of a painful solitude and isolation from which so many people are suffering in these days. What is the cause? Is there a way out?

It is easy to raise such questions, but difficult to answer them with any degree of assurance. I must try, however, as best I can, although I am very conscious of the fact that our feelings and strivings are often contradictory and obscure and that they cannot be expressed in easy and simple formulas.

Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. Only the existence of these varied, frequently conflicting strivings accounts for the special character of a man, and their specific combination determines the extent to which an individual can achieve an inner equilibrium and can contribute to the well-being of society. It is quite possible that the relative strength of these two drives is, in the main, fixed by inheritance. But the personality that finally emerges is largely formed by the environment in which a man happens to find himself during his development, by the structure of the society in which he grows up, by the tradition of that society, and by its appraisal of particular types of behavior. The abstract concept "society" means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations. The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society--in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence--that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is "society" which provides man with food, home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of many millions past and present who are all hidden behind small word "society."

It is evident, therefore, that the dependence of the individual upon society is a fact of nature which cannot be abolished -- just as in the case of ants and bees. However, while the whole life process of ants and bees is fixed down to the smallest detail by rigid, hereditary instincts, the social pattern and interrelationships of human beings are very variable susceptible to change. Memory, the capacity to make combinations, the gift of oral communication have made possible developments among human beings which are dictated by biological necessities. Such developments manifest themselves in traditions, institutions, and organizations; in literature; in scientific and engineering accomplishments; in works of art. This explains how it happens that, in a certain sense, man can influence his life and that in this process conscious thinking and wanting can play a part.

Man acquires at birth, through heredity, a biological constitution which we must consider fixed and unalterable, including the natural urges which are characteristic of the human species. In addition, during his lifetime, he acquires a cultural constitution which he adopts from society through communication and through many other types of influences. It is this cultural constitution which, with the passage of time, is subject to change and which determines to a very large extent the relationship between the individual and society Modern anthropology has taught us, through comparative investigation of so-called primitive cultures, that the social behavior of human beings may differ greatly, depending upon prevailing cultural patterns and the types of organization which predominate in society. It is on this that those who are striving to improve the lot of man may ground their hopes: human beings are not condemned, because of their biological constitution, to annihilate each other or to be at the mercy of a cruel, self-inflicted fate.

If we ask ourselves how the structure of society and the cultural attitude of man should be changed in order to make human life as satisfying as possible, we should constantly be conscious of the fact that there are certain conditions which we are unable to modify. As mentioned before, the biological nature of man is, for all practical purposes, not subject to change. Furthermore, technological and demographic developments of the last few centuries have created conditions which are here to stay. In relatively densely settled populations with the goods which are indispensable to their continued existence, an extreme division of labor and a highly productive apparatus are absolutely necessary. The time -- which, looking back, seems so idyllic -- is gone forever when individuals or relatively small groups could be completely self-sufficient. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that mankind constitutes even now a planetary community of production and consumption.

I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society.

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor -- not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. In this respect, it is important to realize that the means of production -- that is to say, the entire productive capacity that is needed for producing consumer goods as well as additional capital goods -- may legally be, and for the most part are, the private property of individuals.

For the sake of simplicity, in the discussion that follows I shall call "workers" all those who do not share in the ownership of the means of production -- although this does not quite correspond to the customary use of the term. The owner of the means of production is in a position to purchase the labor power of the worker. By using the means of production, the worker produces new goods which become the property of the capitalist. The essential point about this process is the relation between what the worker produces and what he is paid, both measured in terms of real value. In so far as the labor contract is "free," what the worker receives is determined not by the real value of the goods he produces, but by his minimum needs and by the capitalists' requirements for labor power in relation to the number of workers competing for jobs. It is important to understand that even in theory the payment of the worker is not determined by the value of his product.

Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of the smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.

The situation prevailing in an economy based on the private ownership of capital is thus characterized main principles: first, means of production (capital) are privately owned and the owners dispose of them as they see fit; second, the labor contract is free. Of course, there is no such thing as a pure capitalist society in this sense. In particular, it should be noted that the workers, through long and bitter political struggles, have succeeded in securing a somewhat improved form of the "free labor contract" for certain categories of workers. But taken as a whole, the present-day economy does not differ much from "pure" capitalism. Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an "army of unemployed" almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers' goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow-men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

Nevertheless, it is necessary to remember that a planned economy is not yet socialism. A planned economy as such may be accompanied by the complete enslavement of the individual. The achievement of socialism requires the solution of some extremely difficult socio-political problems: how is it possible, in view of the far-reaching centralization of political and economic power, to prevent bureaucracy from becoming all-powerful and overweening? How can the rights of the individual be protected and therewith a democratic counterweight to the power of bureaucracy be assured?

Report this post as:

Blue sky thinking

by Fermat Sunday, Aug. 10, 2003 at 8:50 PM

In fairness, this was written in 1949, long before the true evils of centrally planned economies became known.

Society has also moved on a lot since 1949 in terms of equality and opportunity. I think if he was writing today he would not be advocating socialism.

Report this post as:

As Retributiion begins NOW!

by Arena of Death Gladiators Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 10:15 AM

As Retributiion begi...
d1-01.jpgvvpamz.jpg, image/jpeg, 169x252

Enter now into Sweet Liberty's Arena of Death Gladiators in solidarity with Sherman Austin, anarchist webmaster. We stand in solidarity with you Brother.

Now all you brother and sisters out there who believe in standing up and being counted do yourselves a favor... Besides forming a Big Protest over this injustice by standing up and doing something...

Check the judges Financial disclosures, as well as the pigs and FBI's financial disclosures you'll be very surprised what you'll find. + what other dirty deals they are into.

The ones who pushed hard for this over a small deal wanted to make an example of him for the ones who could really be a problem for them already know all that silly dinky crap anyway .

But these same government officials are the same people involved in the know on blowing up shit themselves like 9-11 GET REAL!

Now check out the dirty judge.

This Judge ruled on these cases also

U.S. District Judge Stephen Wilson

Judge Rules Parts of Church Land-Use Law Unconstitutional

Adelle M. Banks

Religion News Service

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/1209367.html

A California district judge has declared a portion of the law aimed at helping houses of worship overcome land-use disputes unconstitutional.

In a little-noticed ruling filed June 24 in the U.S. District Court of the Central District of California, Judge Stephen V. Wilson said Congress "redefined First Amendment rights" by passing the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) of 2000.

And also This Check it out!

Ruling keeps touch-screen vote system

Federal judge dismisses Palm Desert woman’s suit

http://www.thedesertsun.com/news/stories/local/1031369293.shtml

By Christine Mahr

The Desert Sun

September 7th, 2002

A federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of Riverside County’s touch-screen voting system.

Now help Connect The Dots...

The most powerful man in election security (english)

randY 7:52am Sun Aug 10 '03 (Modified on 5:12am Mon Aug 11 '03)

http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=337650&group=webcast

He also presided over this hot issue.

This is the ruling that will get him...ed

Judge in P-to-P case set to consider jurisdiction

http://old.linuxworld.com.au/news.php3?nid=2027&tid=8

Remember they our own government are the same ones who blew up 9-11 and they are planning to blow up some more shit and blame it on the left again.

And they put this small fry young man through all this over a web site, God will punish all of them most severely now. a death curse from god is upon all their evil heads. Railroading all who won't be their bootlicker ass licking Uncle Tom get on your knees goon henchmen.

All the Puppet masters and their gon henchmen are under a Death Watch & are under a Death curse.

For...

Death Death Death

Comes sweeping Down

Filthy Death The Leering Clown

Death On Wings

Death By Surprise

Failing Evil in worldly Eyes

Death Thats Born

as Life Succumbs

Love and Death Two Kindred Drums

So Keep The Faith Until Judgment Day

An Actor In A passion Play

Without Beginning Without End

Forever More AMEN...

We have Spoken!

Arena of Death Disclaimer

***My Skull Smasher & Leg Breaker Buddies both Gladly advised me that this disclaimer must be posted with each of The Arena's articles***

All The above & past Arena posts are Arena Factual and bears "Total Recall" in relationship to the truth and it always contains some factual statements supportable outside the confines of The Arena Heart & Mind in a Collective Gathering Of Souls.

My primary audience is composed of Indy Media Collective Gathering Of Souls, who have a much higher tolerance for Conspiracy Theory Analysis than the other actual goon Brainwashed-Brain-dead ignorant henchmen.

So Anyone not relying on this information for anything except Horror-Show and Terror- A Go Go purposes is advised to seek immediate assistance from certified professionals with practice caring for the Brain washed and brain-challenged.

@The Centrist Arena of Gladiators 2000-2003, there are

# Of the Society Of The Sacred Sword, a wholly-owned

subsidiary of $ Grand Journey Enterprise Release LTD

a privately-held, Investigative Research Source

of Internet Conspiracy Theory%.

The Arena is not a game. The Arena is not a product. The Arena is not a secret. The Arena is a sacred public ritual and a Munus (a sacred obligation to the dead, a funeral rite) and we have been placed on this earth to perform it for the peoples of the world. So we both have our mission impossible to perform.

Hope you get our clues, riddles, links and connect the ...s

Strange but true for it always seems the most intelligent

are always at the cutting edge of not only dissent but reason.

For Believing is but half the Battle

Overcoming the other half of the Equation!

May the "Connect the dots" Force Be with You

Signed Sadly and Tragically

at the Swords Blades Edge!!

WE Bitter OVER BITTER Gladiators

Of the Society of the Sacred Sword

"Alone of Angels Death has no love for gifts,

Libation helps you not, nor sacrifice.

He has no altar, and hears no hymns;

From him alone Persuasion stands apart."

Aeschylus (525-465 B.C.) "Niobe"

And then again by chance you never really know (or do we) not only whats really the truth or not but where the connect the dots intrigue might lead you to...

Fade To Black

As Retribution Time Now Dawns!

Hang in there Brother, we all know you were railroaded and made an example of...

The Color of your Skin helped

in that sad racist equation.

True Justice though will win out in the End...

Have Faith and Keep The Faith.

Peace

Report this post as:

Another imprisoned comrade

by Daniel Shays Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 12:19 PM

Talk about not just wanting his death but his silence. Not even Mumia was forced to abrogate his right to free speech and association like Sherman here. Thinking of other comrades in jail Like Free and Critter I know that the government has declared war against a new generation of radicals and revolutionaries. But really what is so radical about the notion that our current state of political and economic order is threatening the very survival of our species and causing global instability and havoc? What is so revolutionary about the idea that we must change our collective course lest we go the way of the dinosaurs? It is a sad and telling state of affairs when simple reason and common sense is considered radical and needs to be outlawed. I take heart in a way- the powers-that-be are on the defensive and thus threatened. Resistance breeds resistance until something has to give. If we as activists and radicals continue on all levels of resistance like the tide we will eventually flood the shoreline. Water over time flattens the most resilient, unmoving rock so in that sense time is on our sides. Even for comrades like Sherman who are doing time.

Report this post as:

What is so revolutionary?

by pointer Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 12:32 PM

Speaking of Shermie:

------------------------------------

With regard to danger to the community, Your Honor, one, there's no question this is a case about a crime of violence. This is a case about the defendant's possession of destructive devices and the posting of instructions about how to make bombs, very specific types of bombs, fuel bombs, fertilizer bombs, pipe bombs, and Molotov cocktails, on the defendant's web site, which he has admitted to operating from his home.



There's no question under the Bail Reform Act, Your Honor, that those crimes constitute crimes of violence, and therefore the Government's obviously entitled to a bail hearing on that determination.

The Second Circuit has long held that items, destructive devices such as Molotov cocktails, simply have no legitimate purpose. They are, by definition, tools of violence. In this case, the defendant possessed Molotov cocktails. Pursuant to a search warrant which was authorized in the Central District of California on or about January 24th, the FBI searched the defendant's home. What did they find there? They found explosives. They found M-80s. They found remote control detonating devices. Again, these are items that have no legitimate purpose. They found bottles, over sixty bottles. They found the Molotov cocktails I mentioned.

------------------------------------------------

The defendant's own words on the web site, Your 18 Honor, I believe speak for themselves:



"Yeah, motherfucker, I'm a terrorist to the United States Government. I'm a terrorist to capitalism."



In another segment, he said:

"We don't gather weapons, plan extreme operation, and risk our lives for nothing. This is real."

------------------------------------------------

In addition, the affidavit submitted in connection with the Rule 40 affidavit established probable cause to believe that the defendant operated a web site which shows if it pans out and is proven, which suggests that defendant does not -- let me rephrase that -- which gives me no confidence -- the statements in the web site give me no confidence that the defendant would comply with an order of his Court.



I'm looking at the February 4, 2002 affidavit Special Agent Pie or Pi, in which he says that defendant's web site contained, among other things, the following comment quote:



"Yeah, motherfucker, I'm a terrorist to the U.S. Government. I'm a terrorist to capitalism, not to innocent people. I'm a terrorist to the evil system that's terrorizing all of us. Fuck the Government.

I hope they burn in fucking hell right back where they came from, motherfuckers. You can't fool all the people. We know your fucking style."

-----------------------------------------------

What did the FBI do after it presumably let Mr. Austin go? They put a watch out, and they notified officials in New York City, indicating -- warning agents of the secret service. Why did they warn agents of the secret service? Because the defendant made threats against the president inside a web site. He had a picture of the president of the United States with a target symbol on his head, and said wanted, dead or alive.

Report this post as:

RE: hahaha and what's so revolutionary

by meddle Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 1:35 PM

you naysayers that do nothing to change or improve the world you live in, and instead spend your energy trying to break down those of us who are trying to Evolve...what will you do when the system turns on you? you're unprepared for anything but criticism; you're not building a new world.

...and you'll be left behind when it arrives.

my heart goes out to this man who's doing a year of time as a political prisoner. if he could afford to buy assault rifles, the NRA would defend his right to carry them and arm his friends against any looming tyranny of the state...but since he doesn't have that sorta bread, he's talking molotov cocktails and that's just too real, that's too accessible to the have-nots, and that's a fucking disaster of a society that chides the people who resist the machine that feeds off of all of us when they get scooped up by that machine.

Report this post as:

meddle

by metal Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 1:45 PM

"you naysayers that do nothing to change or improve the world you live in, and instead spend your energy trying to break down those of us who are trying to Evolve"

That's pretty easy. It's because we don't believe what you are doing will make the world a better place. And you have niether said nor done anything to convince us otherwise.

Now, if you want to believe we're all being lead around by our noses, then you certainly may believe that. We disagree. And, we can and have chosen to ignore you. Don't let it bug ya. We haven't let your ideas get in our way.

Report this post as:

On Notice Prewarning now Given

by Arena of Gladiators Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 1:50 PM

The view from the center

So what that he had put up a picture of the president of the United States with a target symbol on his head, and said wanted, dead or alive. The right used to do it all the time to Billy Bop Clinton.

They are even afraid of a bunch of anarchist kids

shish real brave. So what, many right wingers websites during the Clinton years had real nasty stuff towards Clinton, even much worse than what this kid had put up and Clinton didn't have them arrested , he might be a scumbag but he's not an anal retentive, low, nasty. paranoid piece of shit like the right is, & he's was a man who didn't hide unlike Bush who's a scared rat .

Why are they so Nazi, what do they have to hide or fear so much, why are they so paranoid? Well cause they are up too a lot of no good that's why. For they have a lot to hide, even more to fear and much to be paranoid about. When your a bunch of terrorist war criminals like them you better hide in fear.

We warn you of this though right wingers if the left does come back in power after Bush falls next time around they will not be as lenient and forgiving to you as Billy Bop was and they will persecute you triple for persecuting them so horribly, unjustly and unfairly next time around, beware warning given, what comes around goes around . Enjoy your short lived right wing nazi crap while it lasts but remember this waning what you've done to others and the kick given them will return upon thee a thousand kicks.

but the left is basically not like that and are more liberal and they let free speech and expression go, its actions and deeds that count not mouthy words,

but after this and how they've been treated by the right maybe not next time around, maybe the Patient donkey will kick those thousand times for the kicks given them in the here and now.

get your kicks now right wingers while the getting is good for it may not last long and will be real short lived and then we shall see who will be getting their kicks,

Pre-Warning given!

Dont say nobody ever warned you of things that may come along a future distant event horizon, remember most times the persecutors ended up the persecuted and the persecutors kick was given back to them as the persecuted a thousand times over, so beware!

Report this post as:

Arena of Gladiators

by just asking Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 1:53 PM

"So what that he had put up a picture of the president of the United States with a target symbol on his head, and said wanted, dead or alive. The right used to do it all the time to Billy Bop Clinton."

Provide documented evidence. Be specific.

Report this post as:

Pre-Warning given!

by wow Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 2:05 PM

wow

we're all scared

wow

Report this post as:

wow

by WOW! Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 2:25 PM
wow

wow
another
evil wow
wow!

Report this post as:

Shit man use your fucking head

by arena of remember the 1990's Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 2:29 PM

There were and still are lots of examples of this,it is called political satire by some and terrorism by others!

They are calling these democrates Terrorists which puts a threat to their lives, why arn't they arrested.

This is also dangerous and a threat no, see how stupid this all is, ITS SATIRE! But The Right wants to play hard ball as hypocrites and liars so here ya go

US Releases Most Wanted Playing Cards: Homeland Security Edition

Posted by Big Brother on 2003/4/12 18:06:51

http://www.newshax.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=157

Newshax wire

The United States has released a new set of Homeland Security playing cards to follow up the success of their Iraqi Leader playing cards in Iraq. The playing cards were designed to help soldiers in the field better identify potential criminals and and other banned party leaders among the endless throngs of non-combatant civilians.

"These cards depict the people our administration sees as the greatest threats to freedom and to American safety," says Tom Ridge, head of the Homeland Security Department. The demonstration was somewhat flamboyant for the normally cautious Ridge. It came after US forces bombed a house that belonged to Sean Penn's half-brother.

"We have assembled the 52 biggest threats such as rebel leaders Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, as well as other American subversives such as Susan Sarandon and Barbra Streisand, of course. Never again will their reign of terror be inflicted on the now liberated American public," added Ridge. (more photos...)

He is one dangerous Example for starters more on the way

Another one for you!

DEA Administration Fugitive:

CLINTON,William Jefferson

WANTED

FUGITIVE

Also wanted for questioning in the death of Vincent Foster and several other citizens, i.e., Waco Massacre, Murrah Federal Bldg, and Marine murder in Southwest Texas

http://home1.gte.net/ceyoung/JOKES.HTM

There are thousands of examples veiled in jokes some of them, just as subtly dangerous others more outright!

More on the way if you want Arseholes!

But you can go and find enough Examples Yourselves!

"I just remember, all I'm doing is remembering when I was a kid I remember that they used to put out there in the old west, a wanted poster. It said: "Wanted, Dead or Alive." All I want and America wants him brought to justice. That's what we want."

-U.S. President George W. Bush



And the right hasn't done it. BULL SHIT THEY HAVE!

Good News, Bad News For Abortion Foes

Okay To Spew Hate, Not To Spew Bullets

Friday, March 30, 2001 So a federal court says you can encourage people to murder doctors who provide abortions ó but if you actually go ahead and murder one, you might wind up on the FBIís most wanted list. This week, the court threw out an earlier verdict against the owners of an anti-choice web site that featured "Wanted" posters (as in, "Wanted: Dead or Alive") with pictures of abortion doctors, their home addresses, and their phone numbers; the site also advocated the murder of anyone protecting a clinic or defending abortion rights. The court said that the site did not constitute a threat of violence against the doctors (it "merely encouraged unrelated terrorists," said the presiding judge) and was therefore protected by the First Amendment.

But in a slight setback for those mixed-up pro-life killers, James Kopp, the alleged gunman in the 1998 shooting death of Dr. Barnett Slepian and a potential suspect in other similar but non-fatal shootings, was arrested in France by US authorities after his stint on a "Wanted" poster ó the kind thatís issued by the FBI. With John Ashcroft as Attorney General, will Kopp be prosecuted or praised for violating the FACE (Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances) Act? Too bad Ashcroft took down www.johnashcroft.org, the site he maintained while unsuccessfully campaigning for re-election to the Senate ñ it was about as anti-choice as that other site, and as the top cop, he can make all the "Wanted" posters he wants.

YOU FUCKING WANT MORE!

MORE ON THE WAY!

Report this post as:

If it's more of the same...

by just asking Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 2:51 PM

....don't waste my time.

Those playing cards depecting liberals make no mention of committing crimes against them, it simply calls them terrorists, subversives and rebel threats.

There's a big difference between calling Clinton a Wanted Fugitive" and saying about Bush "Wanted: Dead or Alive". You can't encourage people to kill elected officials, and especially the President.

Look, you've obviouly made up your mind and nothing will convince you otherwise. Stay here at LA-IMC all you want and preach to the choir. You're in similar company.

Report this post as:

wow

by wow Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 2:54 PM

wow

sheepdog

you don't hold the copyrights

to the word "wow"

wow

Report this post as:

wow

by wow Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 3:07 PM

wow
to evil wow.
>10
words
wow

Report this post as:

Sheepdog

by wow Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 3:15 PM

Now that I have your attention, seeing that it appears you now believe that dingo was a plant, you should be thanking those of us who outed him. Of course, just a few weeks ago you were proclaiming him as the "big dog" on the board, so I know it's a bit of a shock. But, something tells me you'll get over it. Then again, if you were to drop dead right now, I could care less.

Report this post as:

tbought police

by farrah Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 4:55 PM

"wow. the thought police. sounds like a good plot for a novel"

Report this post as:

Sheepdog

by wow Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 5:07 PM

Good movie or no is not the point.

You were at SF-IMC. You saw what happened when a dominant personality (i.e. nessie) took over the board. You've even commented on how it had degraded the whole site.

So, the same thing was happening here. It needed to come to an end before the same fate occured. It is a good thing.

Report this post as:

drop dead? Setch talk.

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 8:47 PM

Dear sweetmeat.

I'm not sure what was going on, but if Diogenes was a plant it was one that did some

fine work for our side. You're learning. I'm somewhat impressed with the time and labor involved with the project. Also I am happy to have you following me so closely as to hang on to my humble rhetoric. Good boy. I like it when you pay attention.

Report this post as:

There is no difference

by Arena of go look in the Mirror Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 10:07 PM

....don't waste my time.

ONLY YOU CAN WASTE YOU OWN TIME ASSHOLE!

Think about it and you stupid wording.

**********

Those playing cards depecting liberals make no mention of committing crimes against them, it simply calls them terrorists, subversives and rebel threats.

They are subtle death threats! So terrorists, subversives and rebel threats must then be LIQUIDATED RIGHT! THATS DEATH THREATS inciting others to kill those who you all deem terrorists, subversives and rebel threats.

*****

There's a big difference between calling Clinton a Wanted Fugitive" and saying about Bush "Wanted: Dead or Alive". You can't encourage people to kill elected officials, and especially the President.

There is no Difference you MORON!



Look, you've obviouly made up your mind and nothing will convince you otherwise. Stay here at LA-IMC all you want and preach to the choir. You're in similar company.

NO you the one who has already made up your own CLOSED MIND! Stay here at LA-IMC all you want and preach to the choir of GOONS RIGHT WING NAZI SCUM and the likes of you all. Your evil plain and simple. And your not in similar company. so go back right wing troll to your nazi evil company were you belong. Now go take a look in the mirror what do you see the same as the mirror is reflecting a hypocrite who twist the truth and who applies a horrid evil double standard. The right can kill threaten and intimidate but you can't do it back to them.

You all have done it first and then they whine bitch yell rant and rave over an 18 year old. Sheesh!

Point made people they are death threating too and have been even before this kid was even born. Think about it.

Report this post as:

There is no difference

by Arena of go look in the Mirror Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2003 at 10:11 PM

....don't waste my time.

ONLY YOU CAN WASTE YOU OWN TIME ASSHOLE!

Think about it and you stupid wording.

**********

Those playing cards depecting liberals make no mention of committing crimes against them, it simply calls them terrorists, subversives and rebel threats.

They are subtle death threats! So terrorists, subversives and rebel threats must then be LIQUIDATED RIGHT! THATS DEATH THREATS inciting others to kill those who you all deem terrorists, subversives and rebel threats.

*****

There's a big difference between calling Clinton a Wanted Fugitive" and saying about Bush "Wanted: Dead or Alive". You can't encourage people to kill elected officials, and especially the President.

There is no Difference you MORON! But you all can and did right through the 80's and 90's when he was a baby and just a litle lad.



Look, you've obviouly made up your mind and nothing will convince you otherwise. Stay here at LA-IMC all you want and preach to the choir. You're in similar company.

NO you the one who has already made up your own CLOSED MIND! Stay here at LA-IMC all you want and preach to the choir of GOONS RIGHT WING NAZI SCUM and the likes of you all. Your evil plain and simple. And your not in similar company. so go back right wing troll to your nazi evil company were you belong. Now go take a look in the mirror what do you see the same as the mirror is reflecting a hypocrite who twist the truth and who applies a horrid evil double standard. The right can kill threaten and intimidate but you can't do it back to them.

You all have done it first and then they whine bitch yell rant and rave over an 18 year old. Sheesh!

Point made people they are death threating too and have been even before this kid was even born. Think about it.

Wow to scared to admit it.

Real men not kids will be coming for you since you want to play it that way.

Revolutions get started that way!

And we thank you by you honing in on kids it shows us what you truly are.

Glad you GET our DRIFT!

Report this post as:

w00t

by Ness Thursday, Aug. 14, 2003 at 8:18 PM
ness@bugger.off

after a quick poll of my own amongst americans i must announce with regret that what i suspected has come true at last

america, and american government in particular has totally lost its sense of humor and there wasn't much to start with :( - too much pride&arrogance to be funny

ah and a quick search on the net has taught me 10 million ways of making bombs......

seems US law surpresses those individuals that would be an asset to them if they could only loose their paranoia and inadequecy at finding the real culprits - what the hell do you guys mean with your land of the free when your government is taking their frustration out on their own civilians?

free? you are all handcuffed, gagged and blindfolded..

brainwashed and culturally blind

i fear america has become a terrorist state in many european eyes....mind you im not a left-wing radical i am stating facts - i'd say im voicing abt 75% of european populations' opinion here...

Report this post as:

Local News

Marshall Tuck’s racist dog whistle O27 5:01AM

Marshall Tuck’s ethnocentrism contradicts Californian values O27 4:32AM

Contra Costa-Hawkins O25 3:48AM

Debunking Some Anti-Prop 10 Propaganda O12 6:56AM

Why Should California Choose De Leon Over Feinstein? O10 9:55PM

Change Links September 2018 posted S02 10:22PM

More Scandals Rock Southern California Nuke Plant San Onofre A30 11:09PM

Site Outage Friday A30 3:49PM

Change Links August 2018 A14 1:56AM

Setback for Developer of SC Farm Land A12 11:09PM

More problems at Shutdown San Onofre Nuke J29 10:40PM

Change Links 2018 July posted J09 8:27PM

More Pix: "Families Belong Together," Pasadena J02 7:16PM

"Families Belong Together" March, Pasadena J02 7:08PM

Short Report on the Families Belong Together Protest in Los Angeles J30 11:26PM

Summer 2018 National Immigrant Solidarity Network News Alert! J11 6:58AM

Watch the Debate: Excluded Candidates for Governor of California M31 5:20AM

Change Links June 2018 posted M28 7:41AM

The Montrose Peace Vigil at 12 Years M22 8:01PM

Unity Archive Project M21 9:42AM

Dianne Feinstein's Promotion of War, Secret Animal Abuse, Military Profiteering, Censorshi M17 10:22PM

CA Senate Bill 1303 would require an independent coroner rather than being part of police M10 9:08PM

Three years after OC snitch scandal, no charges filed against sheriffs deputies M10 8:57PM

More Local News...

Other/Breaking News

Paraphysique du scientisme N18 9:19AM

USDA Withholds Names Of Turkey Companies Spreading Salmonella N17 7:51PM

Hebron, Ben-Gurion, and UNESCO N17 6:00PM

What Can Destroy Enclosure? N17 1:47PM

Please Help Mississippians Vote For Mike Espy On Nov 27th N17 7:42AM

The Incredible & Brilliant Work of Dr TOMO SHIBATA N17 5:19AM

October 2018 Honduras Coup update N16 9:22PM

Profit de guerre, guerre de profit N16 11:58AM

“Animaniacs in Concert!” Starring Voice Legend Rob Paulsen Heads to Seattle N15 7:22PM

Paraphysique du prodrome oukase N15 12:39PM

President Trump: Hurricane Relief Should not Pay Puerto Rico Debt N14 8:54PM

94 Of Rick Scott's, Brian Kemp's, the Mississippi GOP's & Other Republican Campaign Crime N13 9:42PM

30 Of Brian Kemp's Felonious Racist Vote Suppression Crimes N13 8:42PM

Help translation of From Islam To Womanism book on IndieGoGo N13 12:04PM

COP 21, 25, 32, de l'écocide organisé N11 11:45PM

fbi & fmj are ' Lord of the Flies ' N11 8:26PM

Parangon d'une grande infestation N11 12:03AM

Video: Beautiful Country Burn Again, 39 min N10 10:19PM

OBAMA WERE POW'S LEFTBEHIND IN AFGHANISTAN IRAQ AND LIBYA N08 7:57PM

OBAMA WERE POWS LEFT BEHIND IN AFGAHNISTAN IRAQ AND LIBYA N08 7:29PM

DID BARACK OBAMA LEAVE POWS BEHIND IN AFGAHNISTAN IRAQ AND LIBYA N08 6:43PM

DID BARACK OBAMA LEAVE POWS BEHIND IN AFGHANISTAN IRAQ AND LIBYA N08 5:50PM

Paraphysique de l'Etat d'urgence N08 4:24AM

Republican Vote Fraud Reached A New Level In Midterms N07 7:50PM

Lobotomisation populationnelle N07 7:28AM

Texas Finally Ousts Culberson! N07 4:43AM

Israel Quit UNESCO, Um-Shmum, Make Ben-Gurion Proud! N06 7:37PM

Mafia City Hack Mod Generator - Generate 15.000 Gold N06 2:04AM

More Breaking News...
© 2000-2018 Los Angeles Independent Media Center. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by the Los Angeles Independent Media Center. Running sf-active v0.9.4 Disclaimer | Privacy