"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attacks would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good…….Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)"

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Occupied Jerusalem: 3 October, 2001 (IAP) -- According to Israel radio (in Hebrew) Kol Yisrael, [Shimon] Peres warned [Ariel] Sharon Wednesday that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and "turn the US against us."
At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turned toward Peres, saying "every time we do something you tell me Americans will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it."
The radio said Peres and other cabinet ministers warned Sharon against saying what he said in public because "it would cause us a public relations disaster."

error

These quotes have been falsified for years. Read the expose:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=775

Anti- Zuinist lie because they have to . History and truth are not on their side. All that remains are lies.

Every single one? Hmmm....actually, you're wrong.

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle."
Raphael Eitan
Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

Who said this in 1948

" The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill -- From the Nile to the Euphrates."

points will be given at end of test.

I don't think they'll want to live near the Euphrates .
Too damn much U238+
40,000 Hiroshima type bomb [ what! ] equivalent material contamination deposition, you know. More if Israel sets off nukes in this coming awful and quite possibly final debacle.
Lord help us .
Any One will due.

error

Actually read this so called "expose," and you find it filled with straw men, ad hominems, etc., and other typical Zionist double talk. What you wont find is what the Zionists claim you will find.

For example:


>"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

Not mentioned in "expose".


>"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"Expose" claims quote actually attributed to Israeli Northern District Commissioner Israel Koenig, and is said to be a misquote at that. There is no mention of Ben-Gurion.


>"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.


Not mentioned in "expose"


>"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

Not mentioned in "expose"

And so forth. Read it and see for yourself. The Zionists are counting on you being too lazy and/or stupid to actually read the article. They expect you to simply take them at their word. Never take Zionists at their word. They lie. But don't take my word for it. Read the article and see for yourself.

And when you catch them at it red handed, they try to change the subject. Almost always it is to either alleged anti-Semitism or alleged Arab wrong doing.

error

ha ha ha
According to the Torah.... Upon this piece of mythology you steal a nation and grind its people into the dirt.
Why not according to the 3rd episode of Fantasy Island? More partying and less slaughter .
You religious fanatics are a hoot,

But dangerous, and in a sane society, tolerated only so long as they didn't cause harm.

This is a straw man. It debunks a quote that wasn't even cited, while *not* debunking the quotes that were cited. In othger words, the Zionists are trying to dictract you by changing the subject again. Don't fall for it.

Resist Israeli Terror

The Biblical Jewish Kingdom extended beyond the Jordan river.
The Balfour declaration , recognizing the Jews right to self determination in their historic homeland included the area that is now Jordan- and was over 118,000 sq. kilometers.

In 1921, over 77% of the Madate was closed to Jews forever, and became TransJordan.

Doesn't that make Jordan the homeland of the Palestinian people? Many people believe this.

here's a better definition of who belongs where.
How about calling the people who were living there for centuries, Palestinians? And the invaders, pirates?
There; I hope that cleared that up for you.

because it explains so damned *much*.
"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to
settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel.... Force
is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the
ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us
on all fours ... When we have settled the land, all the
Arabs will be able to do will be to scurry around like
drugged roaches in a bottle." -- Israeli Chief of
Staff Rafael Eitan (Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 4/13/83,
NYTimes 4/14/83)

You know, that word he used... Palestinians... not weeds or rocks or open lands just waiting for the Jewish people to settle.

Words are weapons.

'"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department in 1940. From "A Solution to the Refugee Problem" Joseph Weitz, Davar, September 29, 1967, cited in Uri Davis and Norton Mevinsky, eds., Documents from Israel, 1967-1973, p.21.'

Isn't it true that Palestine was empty and inhabited by nomadic people? No. But this is what the lying zionist scum try to tell you.


From the early stages of Zionism to the present, Zionists have propagated the myth that Palestinians did not settle Palestine until it was later developed by the Israelis. To facilitate such disinformation, the Zionists adopted the following slogan to entice European Jewry to emigrate to Palestine:

"A land with no people is for a people with no land".

Had the Zionist leadership admitted the existence of an indigenous people, then they would have been obliged to explain how they intended to displace them. To disprove this baseless myth, let's quote Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister) who stated as early as 1918 that "Palestine is not an empty country". According to Shabtai Teveth (one of Ben-Gurion's official biographers), Ben-Gurion stated in an article published in 1918 that:

"Palestine is not an empty country . . . on no account must we injure the rights of the inhabitants."

Ben-Gurion often returned to this point, emphasizing that Palestinian Arabs had "the full right" to an independent economic, cultural, and communal life, but not political. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 37-38)

To destroy this baseless myth, click here to view a page that was scanned from a book which was conceived and edited by Ben-Gurion himself, stating that Jews made up 12% of the total Palestinian population as of 1914. It's not only that the majority of the Jews in Palestine were not Zionists (by Ben-Gurion's own admission), but they were also not even citizens of the country since many had recently fled anti-Semitic Tsarist Russia.

As the Ottoman census records show Palestine was widely inhabited in the late 19th and early 20th century, especially in the rural areas where agriculture was the main profession. According to Justine McCarthy (p. 26), an authority on the Ottoman Turks, Palestine's population in the early 19th century was 350,000, and in 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews (including many European Jews from the first and second Aliyah).

So the Jewish population in Palestine as of 1914 were under 8% of the total population, which was much smaller than the Palestinian Christian Arab population. It should be noted that our source, Justine McCarthy was quoted by many Israeli Jewish scholars like Benny Morris and Tom Segev. In that regard, it's worth quoting one of the most ardent Zionists, Israel Zangwill, who stated as early as 1905, that Palestine was twice as thickly populated as the United States. He stated:

"Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us." (Righteous Victims, p. 140 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7-10)

In other words, Palestinians were recognized by the Zionist leadership as "humans" who populated Palestine, however, that was not good enough of a reason to "grant" them the same political rights as Jews, who mostly lived outside of Palestine. Consequently, this ideology was the prelude to the wholesale DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING of the Palestinian people during the 1948 war.

Soon after the first Zionist Congress in Basel (Switzerland) in 1897, a Zionist delegation was sent to Palestine for a fact finding mission, and to explore the viability of settling Palestine with persecuted European Jews. The delegation replied back from Palestine with a cable that stated:

"The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man." (Iron Wall, p. 3)

Despite that many Zionists were aware of this happy marriage as early as 1897, they have deliberately chosen to terminate this relationship since they think that Jewish rights are more important than Palestinian rights. The forcible divorce of Palestine from its indigenous people was eloquently articulated by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of the Israeli political Right, in 1926 who explained that:

" ... the tragedy lies in the fact the there is a collision here between two truths .... but our justice is greater. The Arab is culturally backward, but his instinctive patriotism is just as pure and noble as our own; it cannot be bought, it can only be curbed ... force majeure." (Righteous Victims, p. 108)

The questions which beg to be asked are these:

* Do two wrongs make a right?
* Is it just to solve an injustice by perpetrating another injustice?
* If at one point, Palestinian injustice becomes greater than Jewish injustice, does that justify perpetrating war crimes to solve their injustice?

What makes many Zionists dangerous over time is that they start believing their own propaganda. For example, Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's Prime Minister between 1996-1998, proposed lately that Israel should never relinquish control over the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip since he claims that the local population are the descendents of non-indigenous Palestinians. He also alleged that these people came to look for employment that was generated by the influx of new European Jewish capital. Yehoshua Porat, a Hebrew University professor, refuted the late Prime Minister in an article published in Ha'aretz Daily, click here to read his rebuttal. It's worth noting that Professor Porat worked for the campaign to elect Benjamin Netanyahu in 1996, so it might not be a good idea to call him Netanyahu hater.

It's really amusing that while nearly all Israelis and Zionists believe that Hawaii, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Tahiti, and Iraq were all populated by indigenous people prior to WW I, however, they find it extremely difficult to imagine that the "Promised Land" (one of the most strategic areas in the world) had any indigenous people whatsoever. It's as if the "Promised Land" had been waiting for over 2,000 years for Israelis and Zionists to settle it and make it bloom.

Finally, it's not only that Palestine enjoyed a strategic commercial location (being the land bridge between Asia and Africa), its lands were also fertile and planted with all sorts of trees a long time before the Zionists came to its shorelines. So to claim that Palestine had no people until the Zionists came to settle it, is an absurd claim. Sadly, many Israelis and Zionists hate the idea of an indigenous Palestinian people to the point that they've created a fictitious world based on illusion. In that respect, the Palestinian people have a simple message: Over 8.5 million Palestinians are not going away. The sooner the Israelis and Zionists understand this simple message, the faster they will wake up from their delusional coma.

Could we have a URL on this or did you write this yourself?
Or part of it.
Thank you for the excerpts from
Iron Wall

amazing
' Zionist leadership as "humans" who populated Palestine, however, that was not good enough of a reason to "grant" them the same political rights as Jews, '
Do you have ANY idea how racist this sounds?
Nah.
You're one of those useful idiots Stalin always went on about.

' Zionist leadership as "humans" who populated Palestine, however, that was not good enough of a reason to "grant" them the same political rights as Jews, '

and


American leadership regards the millions of undocumented immigrants here as humans, but refuses to give them the same political rights as Americans

Tia, Schtarker Yid, CM, Gehrig -- Indybay discarded the hidden comments section earlier today. It's no longer possible to access any of the hidden comments there anywhere on the 'net.

Here's hoping that's a sign they're sinking faster.

"The only solution is Eretz Israel, or at least Western Eretz Israel (=all the land west of Jordan River), without Arabs. There is no room compromise on this point ... We must not leave a single village, not a single tribe." Joseph Weitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194. Machover Israca, January 5, 1973 p.2.

Do you just dip you finger in the quotes pool and spinkle them in intervals onto the wire for the heck of it as a form of recreation, or do also bother to check out their veracity at all?

Here's the deal... you do what you do, namely, provide a platform for dangerous zionist ideology, and I'll do what ever I want to do.
Is that sufficient for you?

This is your 'question'
Do you just dip you finger in the quotes pool and spinkle them in intervals onto the wire for the heck of it as a form of recreation, or do also bother to check out their veracity at all?

I believe I have provided sources for the quotes.
You dispute which one? Come on, snap it up.

Although not from an Israeli .

"I am a black South African, and if I were to change the names, a description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank could describe events in South Africa." Archbishop Desmond Tuto, observes during Christmas visit to Jerusalem, December 25, 1989. From Israeli daily Ha'aretz, cited in Palestine Perspectives, January/February 1990.

Context:

From the very outset of the Oslo process, Arafat and his lieutenants viewed the agreements as an implementation of this strategy, not as its abandonment. Arafat said just that as early as September 13, 1993, when he addressed the Palestinians in a pre-recorded Arabic-language message broadcast by Jordanian television, even as he shook Yitzhak Rabin's hand on the White House lawn. He informed the Palestinians that the Israeli-Palestinian declaration of principles (DOP) was merely the implementation of the PLO's "phased strategy." "O my beloved ones," he explained,

"Do not forget that our Palestine National Council accepted the decision in 1974. It called for the establishment of a national authority on any part of Palestinian land that is liberated or from which the Israelis withdrew. This is the fruit of your struggle, your sacrifices, and your jihad … This is the moment of return, the moment of gaining a foothold on the first liberated Palestinian land … Long live Palestine, liberated and Arab."

error

"The inhabitants of Palestine are composed of a large number of elements, differing widely in ethnological affinities, language and religion. It may be interesting to mention, as an illustration of their heterogeneousness, that early in the 20th century a list of no less than fifty languages, spoken in Jerusalem as vernaculars, was there drawn up by a party of men whose various official positions enabled them to possess accurate information on the subject. It is therefore no easy task to write concisely and at the same time with sufficient fullness on the ethnology of Palestine." -- Encyclopedia Britannica, 1911

Note how they fail to cite an URL to back up this claim. How typical.

URLs in 1911? Read a real book idiot.

He knows very well I meant a URL where "nessie" agrees with that. He didn't because he can't. None exist. So he's trying to distract you by changing the subject. It's a typical Zionist trick. Don't fall for it.

Benny Morris, for example, claims in his book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, that the Israeli leader David Ben Gurion wrote to his son, “We must expel Arabs and take their places,” which fits quite well with the assertion that Israel banished the Palestinians.

But Professor Efraim Karsh, in his book Fabricating Israeli History: The New Historians, refutes this, showing that the Ben Gurion letter actually states the opposite, “We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their places.” (Karsh, p. 46-51) And this is just one of the many examples of fraud and misrepresentation Karsh exposes in the work of Morris, Shlaim, et. al.

... Anita Shapira, has herself written extensively about the scholarly failings of Morris and his colleagues, in one article comparing them to Soviet propagandists:

In fact, the ideas advanced by Benny Morris, Avi Shlaim and Ilan Pappe, the vanguard of the “new historians,” were nothing new. An anti-narrative of Zionism, counterposed to the Zionist (and Israeli) narrative of Zionism, had existed since the very inception of the Zionist movement. Opponents of the movement, Jewish and non-Jewish, had created an entire literature explaining what was foul in Zionism and why Zionism was destined to fail, and later why the state of Israel was an illegitimate and unjust construct that had to be resisted. The Soviet propaganda machine excelled in developing this anti-narrative, and in proliferating it. Arab propaganda also did its work. And at the margins of the Israeli left, there had always been groups and currents that doubted the right of Israel to exist and stressed the wrongs that were perpetrated against the Arabs. Yet these heretical elements remained marginal in Israeli politics and culture, and failed to gain wide public support. The advent of the “new historians” changed all that. These views now gained a certain legitimacy, since they appeared in the context of a debate between ostensibly objective scholars. (New Republic, November 29, 1999)

Judging on the basis of how they act online, who is more likely to be lying, a Zionist or an anti-Zionist?

My conclusion is the anti-Zionists *cough-cough* are far more likely to be lying.

Note that he fails to cite a single URL He actually expects you to take him at his word. That's how little respect he has for your intelligence. How typical of the master race mentality. Their mentors, the Nazis, were the same way.

Once again they demonstrate what fundamentally dishonest people they are:


http://www.sfimc.net/news/2002/12/1555696_comment.php#1692248

(snip)

Sometimes they take something that an anti-Zionist has written, subtly alter it’s meaning by changing a few words, and post it

(snip)

Once again he demonstrates what fundamentally dishonest a person he is:


http://www.sfimc.net/news/2002/12/1555696_comment.php#1962248

(snip)

Sometimes he takes something that a Zionist has written, subtly alters its meaning by changing a few words, and posts it

(snip)

This begs the question, and twice at that, a typical Zionist trick.

(1.) It's not a lie. It's the truth.

(2.) I didn't say it. Ostrovsky said it.

It's a great book. Check it out.

Ehud Olmert’s ‘Convergence’ Plan for the West Bank
and U.S. Middle East Policy

Caroline Glick

Executive Summary

Israel’s incoming Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has announced his intention to implement what he refers to as “the convergence plan,” which involves an Israeli pullout from some 90-95 percent of the West Bank and from several neighborhoods in Jerusalem by the end of 2007. Mr. Olmert is scheduled to visit Washington in May 2006 to present his plan to the Bush Administration and Congressional leaders in the hope of securing U.S. monetary and policy support for his plan.

Olmert’s convergence plan entails the expulsion of between 50,000-100,000 Israeli civilians from their homes in the West Bank and the destruction of between 50-100 Israeli towns and villages in the area. It further requires the withdrawal of Israeli military forces to garrisoned locations in proximity to Israel’s security barrier which will encompass the remaining 5-10 percent of the West Bank territory located along the 1949 armistice lines that constituted Israel’s national boundaries until 1967.

Olmert maintains that implementation of his plan will enhance Israeli security and regional stability by lessening the daily contact between Israelis and Palestinians and by safeguarding Israel’s demographic durability as a democratic Jewish state. He further maintains that an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank will enhance U.S. and Israeli interests by improving Israel’s political posture internationally.

Upon scrutiny, however, it is clear that Olmert’s plan will do none of the above. An Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank will effectively cause the area to be transferred to the control of the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority. As experience from Israel’s withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in September 2005 has shown, the area will likely become a base for global terrorists allied with Iran and other terror-supporting states.

In fact, terrorists operating in the relinquished areas will be capable of conducting missile attacks against Israel’s major cities, its international airport and other strategic locations in Israel. They will constitute a destabilizing force that could lead to the fall of the Hashemite regime in Jordan. Mass expulsions of Israeli civilians will destabilize Israeli society and will manifest a serious blow to the morale and retention levels of the Israeli military’s combat officer corps. Also, an Israeli pullout from the West Bank will likely make it easier for terrorist forces to execute infiltrations of Israel for the purpose of conducting large-scale bombing attacks in Israeli population centers like Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa and mobilizing the Israeli Arab minority in the cause of jihad against the Jewish state.

>From a U.S. perspective, the implementation of Olmert’s convergence plan will damage American efforts in the Global War on Terror in the Middle East and throughout the world on several levels. Jordan and Israel are the United States’ most stable allies in the region and their likely destabilization in the aftermath of the operation will both motivate and facilitate the operations of those fighting the U.S. in Iraq and other places in the region. The Palestinians are supported by terror supporting states such as Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria. The destabilization of Israel and Jordan will be perceived as a victory for these supporters of the Palestinians and they will be strengthened at the expense of America, which is perceived as Israel’s sponsor.

Indeed, in a manner even more significant globally than the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, which brought Hamas to power in the Palestinian Authority, an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank will be perceived as a strategic victory for Global Jihad. Recruitment efforts by organizations like al Qaeda worldwide and particularly in Europe, Turkey, India and Indonesia will be greatly strengthened.

Moreover, U.S. efforts at mobilizing support against jihadist groups and efforts in these states as well as in Iraq, the Persian Gulf region generally and the greater Middle East will be significantly weakened. Individuals, political leaders and civil society organizations throughout the region and the world that are overtly sympathetic to the U.S. and its goals of defeating global jihadist forces and democratizing the Middle East will be substantially and perhaps irreversibly weakened.

Although an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and the dismantlement of Israeli communities there seems consonant with traditional American policies in the Middle East, in light of the radicalization of Palestinian society, as evidenced by Hamas’ electoral victory in January 2006, it is unclear how an Israeli withdrawal today will align with U.S. national security interests and goals. Unfortunately, it seems evident that an Israeli retreat from the West Bank will empower the terror supporting, anti-American de facto Palestinian state and will create a new base for global terrorism.

In light of all this, the Bush Administration and the congressional leadership would be well-advised to refuse Olmert’s requests for U.S. support for his convergence plan while backing alternative policy options that will serve to strengthen U.S. allies in the Global War on Terror, while weakening those opposed to U.S. efforts. Such alternative policies will be the subject of an additional Center for Security Policy report that will be released in the near future.

error

People who do stuff like this can't be expected to tell the truth about anything.

As for the motto, we're not talking about the bible. We're talking about the Mossad. Don't let these people distract you.

Personally, I am far more inclined to believe Ostrovsky, who was actually part of the Mossad, than gehrig, who never has been. That is, of course, assuming that gehrig has never been part of the Mossad. Has he been? Is he now? If not, let him deny it. If he is, let's hear whether he's a paid agent or just another one of the sayanim.

If gehrig is not part of the Mossad, even as a sayan, how on earth can he expect us to take his word against that of Ostrovsky, who was an active paid agent with the moral courage to defect?

If gehrig is part of the Mossad, how can we expect him to tell the truth about anything?

So which is it? Is gehrig working, paid or otherwise, for the Mossad? He could tell us. A simple "yes" or "no" would suffice. Will he tell us? I doubt it. But he, maybe in this case, unlike that of the Israel Lobby, maybe I'll be proven wrong.

When somebody asks an uncomfortable question, they try to change the subject. How typical.

Hershl Grinshpan did murder a German official in 1938 to avenge the deportation of his parents by Nazis. This does not imply that Jews are any worse than gentiles.

Neither are they any better. They're just another tribe on a planet with thousands of tribes. Why are people making such a big deal about just another tribe?

Indeed why? You yourself do so often. Do tell why.

Zionists love to sign other people's names. We cannot help but wonder how many atrocities they have signed Osama bin Laden's name to, or Hamas' or the PLO's.

Unsubstantiated allegation. Where's the proof "heard it before" is Zionist? Meanwhile, do you intend to answer his/her question?

They honestly believe you'd believe it was anybody *but* a Zionist. That's how little respect they have your intelligence.


>You yourself do so often.

No, I don't. I make a big deal about people who make a big deal abut Jews. Most of them aren't even Jewish. They're Christians.

Sure you do. That's how much contempt you have for everybody's intelligence.


>>Where's the proof heard it' before' is Zionist?

>they take you for fools
>They honestly believe you'd believe it was anybody *but* a Zionist. That's how little respect they have your intelligence.

He's exhibiting even more contempt for the readers' intelligence. He knows full well there's a rabid anti-Zionist using the "heard it before" handle ratsher often. He just can't be ever trusted to tell the truth about anything.

Note ther their failure to present evidence.

How can you guys criticize other posters when you aren't any better?

In fact, I don't follow anyone's train of thought. I just repeat the zionist lies that I've been taught over an over again. I am angry, steaming mad in fact that I lost my delusional battle at Indybay. In fact, I feel like a small whining boy who's gotten his lunch money taken ever since I was humiliated at Indybay and proven to be an impotent ineefectual troll.
I will just dismiss myself. I am broken.

Ah little troll, you can't defend your cross country trolling--first you have to admit to it, then you have to jsutify the bunk logic. I guess that's hard when you're chsing nessie around. I think it's love
"i've earned my bitching rights"
by your bunk logic, because you volunteered at ONE IMC, you have "bitching rights" at IMC's NATIONWIDE---
You are a TROLL, "bitching" at IMC's far and wide that don't meat your nutty zionsit standards--when your not emboriled in your years long ad-hominem love affair w/ nessie.
Here's a sample of gehrigs cross country trolling
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=gehrig+indymedia

>Point to anything I've said that's any more racist than simply this: "I think the Palestinians deserve and should have their own viable, democratic state side by side with Israel."


That's racist enough. I calls for the world to allow the racist state of Israel to exist. This is no different than calling for the world to allow the racist Third Reich to exist. A racist is a racist is a racist. There is no difference between a Zionist and a Nazi, or a Chetnik or a Klansman or the Interahamwe, except for name of the favored ethnic group.

By Way of Deception, & The Other Side of Deception.
by Victor Ostrovsky
the written word of a high level Mossad agent.

-LA.IMC monitors: please remove that posting as someone has used my name-
if would be better, in order to eliminate, nonsensical clutter, to remove *all *
postings under your name in order to reduce your personal humiliation.
Your support team of zionazi weasels don't mind forgeries so don't whine about it. The sooner this collective decides to implement bans on certain sectors of the deranged pathologies of racism, the better.

Mean while, how about another quote in the spirit of staying on topic!


"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in a position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs..." Vladimir Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall, 1923.

Lets start with the first quote... from Ben Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs by Shabtai Teveth.

I happen to have the book in front of me. It says

From page 5. "the land belonged to those prepared to work it and develop it, and it was immoral to deny a dynamic people the opportunity to better the country through its own labors. We have the right to build and be built in Palestine; we will win the country by building it..." These were the credos he etched in Zionist doctrine."

"...the Arab community in Palestine is an organic, inseparable part of the landscape. It is embedded in hte country. The Arabs work the land and will remain. Ben Gurion even held that the Arabs had full rights in Palestine, "since the only right by which a people can claim to posess a land indefinately is the right conferred by the willingness to work"

p. 28 With the help of the Jews, the Arabs would prosper.... "We are building and revitalizing the country, wrote Ben Gurion...We will win the land through its reclaimation, and our renewal in this land will come through hhe renemwal of the land itself, and that means the renewal of its Arab inhabitants."

So, whoever posted these quotes, how do you reconcile what the book says about Ben Gurian and with the first quote in your list "We must expel the Arabs and take their places"

It has ceased to be a mouthpiece for the Zionist propaganda mill. For this, they should be commended.

Now if they would only stop doing thing like this:

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/11/1722251_comment.php#1724697

Then we might be able to believe things we read there.

OK, I lied. My posts are an admission of my burning frustration at having lost my nutty battle at Indybay. I am a failure. I spammed and they shut me out. Then they laughed at me and I couldn't even respond to their comments...in fact, they are laughing at me right now.
I was desperate to shout them down and now I ma powerless. I feel terrible about myself as a man.
Can't I win at anything?

Otherwise you wouldn't have engaged in your silly transparent forging of posts in my nym trying to jam these hilarious lies you wish were true in my mouth.

Your "small penis" spam is probably self-descriptive. So much for your masculinity. Heh, your spiritual mentor Hitler had one testical only. Maybe there's no coincidence here. You're both abysmal failures and you know it.

From the mid-1830s to the late 1850s, wealthy Arabs (effendi) from Cairo to Beirut, Jaffa to Damascus, purchased land previously owned by hundreds of thousands of fellahin, who suddenly found themselves landless serfs instead of successful small farmers, now working what had once been their own land as tenants of the effendi.

In years of inadequate harvest, Arab money lenders granted usurious loans and took as collateral both future harvests and whatever land remained under communal ownership. When future harvests were insufficient to pay off the debt, with its astronomic interest rate, the money lenders confiscated more land and pushed the fellahin deeper into a modern-day version of feudal serfdom. In other words, the Palestinian Arab peasantry watched helplessly as their land was bought out from under them, by their own people, 50 years before Zionism.

From the 1830s onward, travelers such as Karl Marx and Mark Twain commented on the desolation and emptiness of the area. The Sultan could not collect taxes from unoccupied land. So the Turkish authorities forcibly relocated Bulgarians, Circassians, and Arabs from surrounding regions. Some stayed, worked the land, and assimilated into the local population. Others found a way to escape back to their homelands. The crown’s policy of forced resettlement impacted negatively on the indigenous Arab fellahin. The newcomers created competition for resources (especially water) and offered new sources of supply for agrarian markets. The Arab peasants, already reduced to subsistence agriculture, had to work harder simply to survive.

From the 1880s onward, Zionists bought land in ever-increasing amounts all over what would later be called Israel, and in trans-Jordan. They purchased land from two main sources: The crown and the wealthy Arab land-owners (Effendi), both local and absentee. The fellahin or peasants were already dispossessed.

Owned by the Sultan, crown land was largely unoccupied and un-worked. The Sultan was delighted to have someone purchase, develop, and pay taxes on it. The purchase of crown land rendered no one landless. In fact, it had a positive influence on the neighboring fellahin. The technologically advanced Zionist agrarian endeavors resulted in the reclamation of arid areas with modern irrigation. In addition to learning new agricultural techniques, the Arab peasants could graze flocks on the newly created grassland surrounding the Zionists’ fields. In the swampy areas of the Jezreel and upper Hula valleys, newly drained swampland created arable tracts beyond the holdings of the Zionists, and local Arabs worked those lands, albeit illegally as squatters as far as the crown and wealthy Arab landowners were concerned.

Unlike the wealthy Arabs who purchased land under the Tanzimat and kept the fellahin on the land as serf-like peasants, the Zionists worked the land they purchased themselves, as farmers, and thus had no use for peasant labor. Re-location of the Arab peasants was accomplished in several different ways. Zionist purchasers sometimes paid an additional fee to the wealthy Arab land owner, for instance, to help subsidize the peasants’ move. There was much un-worked land both in the land west of the Jordan River and in Trans-Jordan (the land to the east) that could be bought with these funds. The former Arab serfs could now once again become land-owners, thanks to the surcharge paid by the Zionist purchasers.

Sometimes, the wealthy Arab land-owner illegally kept the surcharge. When Arab peasants did not receive their payment, they complained and sometimes sued the Zionists in the Muslim courts of the Turkish administration. In many cases, the Zionists paid the surcharge again to the peasants rather than incur the expenses and risks of a court case, especially as Jewish plaintiffs in a Muslim court.

Sometimes, the Arab peasants demanded that other land be bought for them so they would not have to search for uninhabited farmland. The Zionists often did this to avoid confrontation. But after fulfilling their part of the deal, they often found their land suddenly covered with Bedouin tents or the shanties of squatters. Having no police or other armed force of their own, they turned to the Ottoman rulers of the region for justice. Sometimes honest neighbors would attest that the new occupants were indeed interlopers trying to extort money from the Zionists. At other times, in the absence of such witnesses, the Zionists had to pay off these squatters or buy land for them elsewhere.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Who Is Really Oppressing the Palestinians?
By David Meir-Levi

How did the Palestinians reach their current tragic state? Are the Israelis responsible? What about the other Arab states and the Palestinians’ own leaders? What part of the blame falls on them?

These are important questions. The answers are complex, requiring a historical literacy and a willingness to go beyond the simplistic notion of the international media that the Mid-east conflict is a matter of conflicting rights and Israeli “occupation” of Palestinian lands.

Early Oppression of Palestinian Arabs by the Ottoman Turks

The exploitation of Palestinian Arabs began more than 170 years ago, when Israel was still an impossible dream, and intifadas and suicide bombers were unimaginable. At the height of its rule in the early 19th century, the Ottoman Empire instituted “Tanzimat,” a series of laws promulgated over several decades which radically changed the nature of land ownership. As a result of the new laws, wealthy land owners, bankers, business owners, and money lenders anywhere in the Empire could now buy land formerly owned communally by the Arab peasants (fellahin) in the towns and villages of the region that would later become known as Israel.

From the mid-1830s to the late 1850s, wealthy Arabs (effendi) from Cairo to Beirut, Jaffa to Damascus, purchased land previously owned by hundreds of thousands of fellahin, who suddenly found themselves landless serfs instead of successful small farmers, now working what had once been their own land as tenants of the effendi.

In years of inadequate harvest, Arab money lenders granted usurious loans and took as collateral both future harvests and whatever land remained under communal ownership. When future harvests were insufficient to pay off the debt, with its astronomic interest rate, the money lenders confiscated more land and pushed the fellahin deeper into a modern-day version of feudal serfdom. In other words, the Palestinian Arab peasantry watched helplessly as their land was bought out from under them, by their own people, 50 years before Zionism.

From the 1830s onward, travelers such as Karl Marx and Mark Twain commented on the desolation and emptiness of the area. The Sultan could not collect taxes from unoccupied land. So the Turkish authorities forcibly relocated Bulgarians, Circassians, and Arabs from surrounding regions. Some stayed, worked the land, and assimilated into the local population. Others found a way to escape back to their homelands. The crown’s policy of forced resettlement impacted negatively on the indigenous Arab fellahin. The newcomers created competition for resources (especially water) and offered new sources of supply for agrarian markets. The Arab peasants, already reduced to subsistence agriculture, had to work harder simply to survive. (1).

The Benefits of Zionism to the Arab Peasantry

From the 1880s onward, Zionists bought land in ever-increasing amounts all over what would later be called Israel, and in trans-Jordan. They purchased land from two main sources: The crown and the wealthy Arab land-owners (Effendi), both local and absentee. The fellahin or peasants were already dispossessed.

Owned by the Sultan, crown land was largely unoccupied and un-worked. The Sultan was delighted to have someone purchase, develop, and pay taxes on it. The purchase of crown land rendered no one landless. In fact, it had a positive influence on the neighboring fellahin. The technologically advanced Zionist agrarian endeavors resulted in the reclamation of arid areas with modern irrigation. In addition to learning new agricultural techniques, the Arab peasants could graze flocks on the newly created grassland surrounding the Zionists’ fields. In the swampy areas of the Jezreel and upper Hula valleys, newly drained swampland created arable tracts beyond the holdings of the Zionists, and local Arabs worked those lands, albeit illegally as squatters as far as the crown and wealthy Arab landowners were concerned.

Unlike the wealthy Arabs who purchased land under the Tanzimat and kept the fellahin on the land as serf-like peasants, the Zionists worked the land they purchased themselves, as farmers, and thus had no use for peasant labor. Re-location of the Arab peasants was accomplished in several different ways. Zionist purchasers sometimes paid an additional fee to the wealthy Arab land owner, for instance, to help subsidize the peasants’ move. There was much un-worked land both in the land west of the Jordan River and in Trans-Jordan (the land to the east) that could be bought with these funds. The former Arab serfs could now once again become land-owners, thanks to the surcharge paid by the Zionist purchasers.

Sometimes, the wealthy Arab land-owner illegally kept the surcharge. When Arab peasants did not receive their payment, they complained and sometimes sued the Zionists in the Muslim courts of the Turkish administration. In many cases, the Zionists paid the surcharge again to the peasants rather than incur the expenses and risks of a court case, especially as Jewish plaintiffs in a Muslim court.

Sometimes, the Arab peasants demanded that other land be bought for them so they would not have to search for uninhabited farmland. The Zionists often did this to avoid confrontation. But after fulfilling their part of the deal, they often found their land suddenly covered with Bedouin tents or the shanties of squatters. Having no police or other armed force of their own, they turned to the Ottoman rulers of the region for justice. Sometimes honest neighbors would attest that the new occupants were indeed interlopers trying to extort money from the Zionists. At other times, in the absence of such witnesses, the Zionists had to pay off these squatters or buy land for them elsewhere. (2)

The Hope-Simpson report in 1930, addressing the question of uprooted Arab peasants under the British Mandate (imposed after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I), concluded that only a bit more than 800 families were actually rendered landless by Zionist land purchases over the decades from 1880 onward. While initially more than 3,000 Arab heads of households claimed such status in the hope of gaining land or money at the expense of the Zionists or the British, the Hope-Simpson staff found that only a fraction of that number were legitimate (3).

Over all, the Zionist endeavor in the late 19th and early 20th centuries was highly beneficial to the indigenous Arab population ruled by the Turks. Among the benefits were the agricultural advances the Zionists brought to Arab peasants and Bedouins who migrated in from surrounding areas in considerable numbers from the 1880s onward. Wealthy Arab land-owners enriched themselves at the expense of the Zionists who were willing to pay inflated prices with double and triple surcharges in order to procure land for the creation of a Jewish homeland. And some Arab peasants were able to reverse the tragic consequences of the Tanzimat land-grab and regain their status as land-owning farmers thanks to the Zionists’ willingness to pay them or buy land for them, often in trans-Jordan (4).

this one's good.
:>)
"If it is proper to 'reconstitute' a Jewish state which has not existed for two thousand years, why not go back another thousand years and reconstitute the Canaanite state? The Canaanites, unlike the Jews, are still there." H.G. Wells, quoted in Palestine Dilemma: Arab Rights Versus Zionist Aspirations, by Frank C. Sakran, Public Affairs Press, 1948, p. 204.

To provide our enemies with a soapbox is more than just immoral. It's stupid.

>Indybay has proven that it exists only to perpetuate an agenda.

If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

Isn't it true that Palestine was empty and inhabited by nomadic people? (the lie debunkedhere:

From the early stages of Zionism to the present, Zionists have propagated the myth that Palestinians did not settle Palestine until it was later developed by the Israelis. To facilitate such disinformation, the Zionists adopted the following slogan to entice European Jewry to emigrate to Palestine:

"A land with no people is for a people with no land".

Had the Zionist leadership admitted the existence of an indigenous people, then they would have been obliged to explain how they intended to displace them. To disprove this baseless myth, let's quote Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister) who stated as early as 1918 that "Palestine is not an empty country". According to Shabtai Teveth (one of Ben-Gurion's official biographers), Ben-Gurion stated in an article published in 1918 that:

"Palestine is not an empty country . . . on no account must we injure the rights of the inhabitants."

Ben-Gurion often returned to this point, emphasizing that Palestinian Arabs had "the full right" to an independent economic, cultural, and communal life, but not political. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 37-38)

To destroy this baseless myth, click here to view a page that was scanned from a book which was conceived and edited by Ben-Gurion himself, stating that Jews made up 12% of the total Palestinian population as of 1914. It's not only that the majority of the Jews in Palestine were not Zionists (by Ben-Gurion's own admission), but they were also not even citizens of the country since many had recently fled anti-Semitic Tsarist Russia.

As the Ottoman census records show Palestine was widely inhabited in the late 19th and early 20th century, especially in the rural areas where agriculture was the main profession. According to Justine McCarthy (p. 26), an authority on the Ottoman Turks, Palestine's population in the early 19th century was 350,000, and in 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews (including many European Jews from the first and second Aliyah).

So the Jewish population in Palestine as of 1914 were under 8% of the total population, which was much smaller than the Palestinian Christian Arab population. It should be noted that our source, Justine McCarthy was quoted by many Israeli Jewish scholars like Benny Morris and Tom Segev. In that regard, it's worth quoting one of the most ardent Zionists, Israel Zangwill, who stated as early as 1905, that Palestine was twice as thickly populated as the United States. He stated:

"Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us." (Righteous Victims, p. 140 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7-10)

In other words, Palestinians were recognized by the Zionist leadership as "humans" who populated Palestine, however, that was not good enough of a reason to "grant" them the same political rights as Jews, who mostly lived outside of Palestine. Consequently, this ideology was the prelude to the wholesale DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING of the Palestinian people during the 1948 war.

Soon after the first Zionist Congress in Basel (Switzerland) in 1897, a Zionist delegation was sent to Palestine for a fact finding mission, and to explore the viability of settling Palestine with persecuted European Jews. The delegation replied back from Palestine with a cable that stated:

"The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man." (Iron Wall, p. 3)

Despite that many Zionists were aware of this happy marriage as early as 1897, they have deliberately chosen to terminate this relationship since they think that Jewish rights are more important than Palestinian rights. The forcible divorce of Palestine from its indigenous people was eloquently articulated by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of the Israeli political Right, in 1926 who explained that:

" ... the tragedy lies in the fact the there is a collision here between two truths .... but our justice is greater. The Arab is culturally backward, but his instinctive patriotism is just as pure and noble as our own; it cannot be bought, it can only be curbed ... force majeure." (Righteous Victims, p. 108)

The questions which beg to be asked are these:

Do two wrongs make a right?
Is it just to solve an injustice by perpetrating another injustice?
If at one point, Palestinian injustice becomes greater than Jewish injustice, does that justify perpetrating war crimes to solve their injustice?
What makes many Zionists dangerous over time is that they start believing their own propaganda. For example, Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's Prime Minister between 1996-1998, proposed lately that Israel should never relinquish control over the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip since he claims that the local population are the descendents of non-indigenous Palestinians. He also alleged that these people came to look for employment that was generated by the influx of new European Jewish capital. Yehoshua Porat, a Hebrew University professor, refuted the late Prime Minister in an article published in Ha'aretz Daily, click here to read his rebuttal. It's worth noting that Professor Porat worked for the campaign to elect Benjamin Netanyahu in 1996, so it might not be a good idea to call him Netanyahu hater.

It's really amusing that while nearly all Israelis and Zionists believe that Hawaii, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Tahiti, and Iraq were all populated by indigenous people prior to WW I, however, they find it extremely difficult to imagine that the "Promised Land" (one of the most strategic areas in the world) had any indigenous people whatsoever. It's as if the "Promised Land" had been waiting for over 2,000 years for Israelis and Zionists to settle it and make it bloom, click here to read our response to this argument.

Finally, it's not only that Palestine enjoyed a strategic commercial location (being the land bridge between Asia and Africa), its lands were also fertile and planted with all sorts of trees a long time before the Zionists came to its shorelines. So to claim that Palestine had no people until the Zionists came to settle it, is an absurd claim. Sadly, many Israelis and Zionists hate the idea of an indigenous Palestinian people to the point that they've created a fictitious world based on illusion. In that respect, the Palestinian people have a simple message: Over 8.5 million Palestinians are not going away. The sooner the Israelis and Zionists understand this simple message, the faster they will wake up from their delusional coma.

Just Palestinian Propaganda off of the "Palestine Remembered " site. We've all seen that trash posted, refuted, adn then re-posted. Do we have to go and disect it lie by lie yet again?

I don't see that the zionists just didn't come over and peacefully settle into Palestine.
They used armed force, after some of their business partners purchased toe holds and then massacred peaceful farming communities that were already established and even exported their orchard products. Oranges, olives, grapefruit. They had well systems and irrigation complexes to stretch meager water resources.

www.ifamericansknew.org

An ad hominem is not a rebuttal. It's a way to change the subject.

Nessie: To provide our enemies with a soapbox is more than just immoral. It's stupid.

Tia: No. The only hope of achieving peace is recognizing the essential humanity of all people. This is best achieved through exposure and dialog.


Nessie: If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

Tia: Puerile crap.
Listen to each other. Exchange ideas. Dialog. Work towards consensus.

It wasn't the legislation that changed people people's hearts and minds re: civil rights for African Americans- it was going to soccer together- going to church together- going to school together.

Segreation doesn't work. Segregation- physical, intellectual or psychological- is a barrier to overcome.
Channels of dialog must remain open.

Beware of people who want to limit your exposure to information. Ask yourself- what are they trying to hide?

See:

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/156114_comment.php#157903

Dialogue.
Bah, time to end the pain and death.
Not excuse it.
-spit-

Lets have some fun with the obvious stupitiy of the myths being spread by the "anti-zionists."

"I don't see that the zionists just didn't come over and peacefully settle into Palestine."

So in this myth, starving Jews in the Shet'ls and Ghettos of Europe instantly, perhaps while on the boats, transformed into a formitable fighting force and militarily expelled a larger, armed Arab population.

From "The Rape of Palestine" William Ziff, 1938;

"We should expect to find an exodus of Arabs from lands where Jews are settled. But exactly the opposite is true: it is precisely in the vicinity of those Jewish villages that Arab developement is most marked. Arab Haifa, profiting from the Jewish boom grew from 1922 to 1936 by 130%, Jaffa by 80% and Jerusalem by 55%...In the vicinity of the Jewish villages Arab workers earn twice the wage paid in other parts of Palestine.

Once the poorest , sorriest population in this whole section of poverty stricken masses, the Arabs of Palestine are now the richest per capita of their race"

"Fully 75% of the area in Jewish hands morever has not known the plough for centuries. The northern colonies in Galilee were built on land rendered impossible for life since roman times because of marsh and endemic disease. Tel Aviv was erected on sand dunes which were considered without monetary value. The great granary, the valley of Jezreel, now nestling so trim and green in the shining sun, was so deserted and pestilential when Jews bought it that it was said any bird trying to cross it would fall dead in its flight."

According to this book, the "Jews of Jerusalem constitute 72 % of its souls"

Ziff says "In the case of the peasants who sold to the Jews, with the exception of a bare five percent who bettered themself in urban pursuits, all remained on the land. Most of them sold only part of their acres and with the money obtained got out of debt for the first time in their lives. Within the past 6 years the debt of the Arab cultivator has been reduced by 60% while his income has sharply increased. The most solicitous prodding of the Government over the last ten years has not been able to bring forth more than 664 Arab families that could come under the definition of displaced."

Next myth;

" They used armed force, after some of their business partners purchased toe holds and then massacred peaceful farming communities that were already established and even exported their orchard products. Oranges, olives, grapefruit. They had well systems and irrigation complexes to stretch meager water resources"

In reality;
From the mid-1830s to the late 1850s, wealthy Arabs (effendi) from Cairo to Beirut, Jaffa to Damascus, purchased land previously owned by hundreds of thousands of fellahin, who suddenly found themselves landless serfs instead of successful small farmers, now working what had once been their own land as tenants of the effendi.

In years of inadequate harvest, Arab money lenders granted usurious loans and took as collateral both future harvests and whatever land remained under communal ownership. When future harvests were insufficient to pay off the debt, with its astronomic interest rate, the money lenders confiscated more land and pushed the fellahin deeper into a modern-day version of feudal serfdom. In other words, the Palestinian Arab peasantry watched helplessly as their land was bought out from under them, by their own people, 50 years before Zionism.
.

"then talk about reperations and return"
It was discussed at Camp David. 30 billion dollars was offered, along with an independent state. Do you think that was fair? Why or why not?

oh then, it was like evicting squatters on the landlord's property.
Only with machine guns and handgrenades.
that sounds good.

Ziff says "In the case of the peasants who sold to the Jews, with the exception of a bare five percent who bettered themself in urban pursuits, all remained on the land. Most of them sold only part of their acres and with the money obtained got out of debt for the first time in their lives. Within the past 6 years the debt of the Arab cultivator has been reduced by 60% while his income has sharply increased. The most solicitous prodding of the Government over the last ten years has not been able to bring forth more than 664 Arab families that could come under the definition of displaced."

He barely has humanity within. A wise deceased man once said of creatures like him (and I paraphrase), "don't sit down and have a cup of coffee with antisemities. Smash them."

Hmmm. Thats what Yid says. Maybe thats my personal weakness- I can't escape from the American female girl scout leader vegetarian pacifist lets all hold hands around the campfire and we can all be friends mentality.


He and 'nessie' have always chuckled to themselves when beautiful-souled Jews tried to engage in give-and-take by apealing to their supposed humanity. But at base, these creatures are governed by too much and too great a darkness to be nudged away from their racist hatred.

Like trying to negotiate with Voldemort, huh? You are probably right. My type are easily ambushed and eliminated. Its Darwinian, though- only the warriors remain.
Every once in a while I think I see a glimse of a soul from some of these people, and I think if I can find the right words, that perhaps they are reachable.... I'd be wrong, most likely.
So, do you think we've invested enough time in peace love and understanding, and now its time for war?

Theres a big difference between human rights, property rights and the right to soveriegnty which the Palestinians seem to confuse greatly. Yes, a tenant farmer has no rights of ownership to the property he farms, but he has human rights. A land owner may own the property, but that doesn't mean rights of soveriegnty. I.e. just because a person owns a house doesn't mean that they can write laws that exclude the U.S. government.

Don't forget the armies of five Arab nations invading Israel in 1948 in response to Israel's declaration of independence. Its not as if the Palestinians are andhave been on their own militarily.

read this URL
.http://www.truepeace.org/campdavid.html

"The Palestinians had stated publicly that they did not see Sadat as their representative. He had no commitment to them, nor they to him. For sure, to try to upgrade his image in the Arab countries he felt it necessary to raise the Palestinian issue. But once it was raised, Israel could and should have answered the truth: "This is no concern of yours. Peace with the Palestinians has to be made with the Palestinians." And he would have left it at that, for his interests really lay only in strengthening his own country.Nevertheless, the Israelis made commitments to him, acknowledging a limitation of their rights to the West Bank."

Now you've begun to figure out that Israel made peace with Egypt, returning the Sinai, more territory than it retained from the Six Day War. At the same time, the Palestinians refused and continued to refuse to negotiate peace.

Tia:
So, do you think we've invested enough time in peace love and understanding, and now its time for war?

All I can say is I'm delighted with the more militant line and rhetoric Gehrig has adopted in the last several months. I don't know if some of my ideas have been used consciously, but that's hardly what matters.
But from where I am maybe I'm in no position to suggest to US Jews to abandon the more kindler, gentler approachs. After all, you're the ones that need to live with these dummies one way or another. You might always run into jackasses who'll cuss you out as "you Jew!", "beany wearer" or "you Christ killer!" as occurred to Yid.

While not losing sight of ther fact pro-Israel articles get hidden here, my hat goes off to the editors who tolerate acidic retorts to Jew haters.

Camp david 2000

According to Dennis Ross, Barak offered to withdraw from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip and to allow the Palestinians to establish an independent state.

Barak offered to dismantle isolated settlements and Arafat himself agreed to allow Israel to maintain blocs of settlements within the area annexed to Israel.
Ambassador Ross states flatly that Israel offered to create a Palestinian state that was contiguous.

Barak guaranteed the right of Palestinian refugees to return to the Palestinian state and proposed that they receive reparations from a $30 billion international fund.

Why did seven well equipped Arab armies attempt to destroy the poorly armed and newly founded 'Jewish State'? (the lie is debunked here:

The baseless myth, of how the Arab armies wanted to destroy the 'Jewish State', has been propagated in all sectors of the Israeli society, especially in its school system, military boot camps, and media. As it will be proven below, this myth was deemed necessary by most Zionists to legitimize their continued USURPATION of the Palestinian people's political, civil, and economic rights.

Often when Israelis and Zionists are confronted with facts contrary to their liking, they counter by accusing the sources of fabrication or being part of the "anti-Semitic" Arab propaganda. To avoid such a "confusion", we'll directly quote two of the most prominent pro-Israeli historians, Martin Van Creveld (the renowned Israeli military strategist and historian) and Martin Gilbert, who wrote:

"In the Event of invading [Arab] forces were limited to approximately 30,000 men. The strongest [consider this fact while reading the next quote] single contingent was the Jordanian one, already described. Next came Egyptians with 5,500 men, then the Iraqis with 4,500 who ..... were joined by perhaps 3,000 local irregulars. The total was thus around eight rather under strength brigades, some of them definitely of second-and even third-rate quality. To these must be added approximately 2,000 Lebanese (one brigade) and 6,000 Syrians (three brigades). Thus, even though the Arab countries [population] outnumbered the Yishuv by better then forty-to-one, in terms of military manpower available for combat in Palestine the two sides were fairly evenly matched. As time went on and both sides sent reinforcements the balance changed in the Jews' favor; by October they had almost 90,000 men and women under arms, the Arabs only 68,000." (The Sword And The Olive, p. 77-78)

"Senior Hagana commanders met with committee [UN Special Committee On Palestine-UNSCOP] members in Jerusalem's Talpiot quarter in similarly surreptitious circumstances to express confidence that Jewish forces, which they numbered at 90,000, including 35,000 reservists, could overcome any Arab assault should it come to war." (Jerusalem Post)

"Ben-Gurion made serious efforts, shortly before the United Nations vote on the Partition proposal, to seek the neutrality of King Abdullah of Transjordan, whose British trained and officered army, the Arab Legion, was the STRONGEST fighting force in the Middle East. The king had long been at loggerheads with Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, for the moral leadership of the Arabs of the whole region. Abdullah's secret interlocutor was to be Golda Meir:"' ...... He [King Abudullah] soon made the heart of the matter clear: he would not join in any Arab attack on us. He would always remain our friend, he said, and like us, he wanted peace more than anything else. After all, we had a common foe, the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini.'"(Israel: A History, p.149-150)

"As for Abdullah's Arab Legion, it had fought better than any other Arab force. Yet on scarcely any occasion had the Arab Legion attempted to conquer territories allotted to the Jews by the partition plan, preferring to stay on the defensive." (The Sword And The Olive, p. 95)

".... there was no common military headquarters, no attempts at coordinating the offenses of the Arab armies, and ... not even a regular liaison service for sharing enemy intelligence." (The Sword And The Olive, p. 83)

"Perhaps the most important [of the Arab armies problems] was a crippled shortage of ammunition, owing to the international arms embargo ..., in the case of the Iraqis and Egyptians, long lines of communications. For example, after February 25, 1948, the Arab Legion received no new ammunition for its 20mm guns. Some of the ammunition used by the Iraqi artillery was more than thirty years old; the Syrians had no ammunition for their heavy 155mm guns. Whereas Jewish stockpiles were growing all the times [especially the big arms shipment from Czechoslovakia in May 1948], the enemies were so depleted they stole ammunition shipments for each other. In addition, they were ill-coordinated, technically incompetent, slow, ponderous, badly led, and unable to cope with night operations that willy-nilly, constituted the IDF's expertise." (The Sword And The Olive, p. 95-96)

Soon after the execution of Operation Dani in the first half of July 1948, Yigal Allon wrote a Palmach (Haganah's strike force) report stating that the expulsion of Lydda's and Ramla's inhabitants had:
"clogged the routes of the advance of the [Transjordan Arab] Legion and had foisted upon the Arab economy the problem of "maintaining another 45,000 souls . . . Moreover, the phenomenon of the flight of tens of thousands will no doubt cause demoralization in every Arab area [the refugees] reach . . . This victory will yet have great effect on other sectors." (Israel: A History, p. 218 & Benny Morris, p. 211)

Although we disagree with the Arab armies' statistics (30,000 men) that was presented by Mr. Creveld, the reader could conclude the following:

The strongest Arab army to enter Palestine was in cahoots with the Israelis from the start. Based on H.M. King Abdullah's orders (who also commanded the Iraqi Army in addition to Transjordan's), the strongest Arab armies did not even encroach on the areas allotted to the Jewish state by the 1947 UN GA Partition plan. On the contrary, the truth was the exact opposite, for example:

1- Lydda, Ramla, and the Triangle Areas were handed over to the Israelis without a fight. Although Transjordan's Army withdrew based on the orders of H.M. the King, the Iraqi Army (which was positioned few kilometers north in Ras al-'Ayn) was given explicit orders not to intervene (their motto in Arabic was: maku 'Awamer). It should be noted that these areas used to be densely populated with Palestinians, were fertile, and were strategically located for both Arab and Israeli supply lines.

2- When the Israeli Army attacked the Egyptian (south) and Syrian (northeast) armies in mid-October, 1948, the Iraqi and Jordanian armies were forbidden from opening a third front in the middle and south. The Iraqi Army was capable of splitting Israel in half if it was given the orders, and the Jordanian Army watched from the sidelines as the Israeli Army mauled the Egyptians in southern Hebron and Beersheba areas (Righteous Victims, p. 244). Note that the Iraqi Army was well positioned in the Tulkarm-Jinin areas (southeast of Haifa) which is only 12-14 kilometers from the Mediterranean.

The other strongest Arab armies, Egyptian and Iraqi, had long supply and communication lines away from their bases in their respective countries.

Saudi Arabian and Sudanese armies contributed few thousand soldiers in the middle of the war to shore up the exhausted Egyptian army in southern Palestine.

Under American and French pressure, the Lebanese Army was sidelined from the start, and it did not even cross the international borders. At the most, the Lebanese army provided a mediocre artillery cover to some ALA [Arab Liberation Army] volunteers at the beginning of the war. (Righteous Victims p. 233-234)

When the Arab armies entered Palestine on May 15, 1948, close to 400,000 Palestinian refugees were already ethnically cleansed out of their homes, and they clogged the roads, burdened local economies, and demoralized the Arab populations and armies, as it was admitted by Yigal Allon. In other words, the Palestinian refugees were used as a weapon against Israel's enemies.

The Arab armies neither coordinated their military operational plans, nor shared military intelligence among themselves. In fact, it wasn't until April 30, 1948 that the Arab armies' chiefs of staff met for the first time to work out a plan for military intervention. It's worth noting that this plan was later wrecked by H.M. King Abdullah, when he made last minute changes just before the entry of any Arab army into British Mandated Palestine. (Simha Flapan, p. 133 & Iron Wall, p. 35)

According to a Jewish Agency assessment of the Arab intentions and capacities, submitted in March 1948, reported that the Arabs chiefs of staff had warned their government against an invasion of Palestine and any lengthy war because of the internal situation in most of the Arab countries. For example, revolt in Yemen kept the Saudis at bay and there was a mass riot in Iraq against the Anglo-Iraqi treaty, (Simha Flapan, p. 123-124)

Yochai Sela of Tel-Aviv University, has provided the following breakdown for the number of Israelis killed during the 1948 war:
Fatality Category Value Percentage of Total
Civilians killed*
1,150 20.15%
Military killed 4,558 79.85%
Total
5,708
100%
Soldiers killed between
Nov. 30, 1947 - May 15, 1948 1,345** 23.56%
Soldiers killed between
May 15, 1948- March 10, 1949 3,213** 56.29%
Killed within the
areas designated by the UN 1,581 27.70%
Killed outside the
areas designated by the UN 2,759*** 48.33%
Killed defending
Jewish settlements 984 17.24%
Killed attacking
Arab settlements 1,212 21.23%

Source: Simha Flapan, p. 198-199.
* Majority died in Jerusalem
** The number of Israelis killed while fighting the Arab Legion 1,367; the Palestinians, 1,092; the Egyptians, 910; the Syrians, 238; the Iraqis, 241; the Lebanese 129; Qawukji' ALA, 336, the British 30.
*** Mostly soldiers, non-civilians.

These statistics clearly show that the number of Israeli soldiers killed in offensive actions were well over 60% (2,759/4,558) of the total Israeli soldiers killed between November 30, 1947 and March 10, 1949. So from the Israeli prospective, the so called "War of Independence" was more offensive than defensive in nature.


The Israelis maximally exploited the rivalry between H.M. the King Abdullah of Transjordan and al-Hajj Amin al-Husseini. For example, before the entry of any Arab armies to Palestine on May 15th, 1948, al-Hajj Amin (who resided at the time in Tyre-southern Lebanon) wanted to declare a provisional Palestinian government in the Galilee, with Safad being its capital. To preempt such a plan, H.M. the King pulled out Transjordan's irregulars troops out of Safad on May 11th, 1948, which was the primary reason for its falling into Israeli hands few days later (Benny Morris, p. 105). Another good reason that enticed H.M. the King to collaborate with the Jewish Agency was the promise of future payments of $4 million a year for the next subsequent 5 years. (Simha Flapan, p. 138)

Although there was an arms embargo on the warring parties in the Middle East, the embargo negatively affected the Arabs more than the Israelis. While the Arab armies were depleting their arms and ammunitions, the Israeli army was stockpiling weapons and ammunitions from a huge arms shipment from Czechoslovakia that arrived in early May, 1948.

By October 1948, the Israeli army had 90,000 armed men, while the Arab armies had 68,000 armed men.

It's a fabricated myth that seven well equipped, organized, and coordinated Arab armies attempted to PUSH the poorly armed Jews into the sea.


Ben-Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, recognized that Palestinian nationalism created the very danger he was most afraid of. He knew that the victory in 1948 was achieved not because the Israeli Army was more heroic but because the Arab armies were corrupt and the Arab world was divided. He became obsessed with the fear that a charismatic leader would modernize Arab education, their economies, and unite all the Arab states. He wrote on November 11, 1948:

"The Arab people have been beaten by us. Will they forget it quickly? Seven hundred thousand people beat 30 million. Will they forget this offense? It can be assumed that they have a sense of honor. We will make peace efforts, but two sides are necessary for peace. Is there any security that they will not want to take revenge? Let us recognize the truth: we won not because we performed wonders, but because the Arab army is rotten. Must this rottenness persist forever? The situation in the world beckons towards revenge: there are two blocs; there is fear of world war. This tempts anyone with a grievance. We will always require a superior defensive capability." (Simha Flapan, p. 238)

Finally, we like to end this article by directly quoting the famous Israeli historian Avi Shlaim who stated in his famous Iron Wall book:

"This popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war has been used extensively in Israeli propaganda and is still taught in Israeli schools. It is a prime example of the use of a nationalistic version of history in the process of nation building. In a very real sense history is the propaganda of the victors, and the history of the 1948 war is no exception." (Iron Wall p. 34)

"Despite all the political miscalculations and failures of those who planned the Sinai Campaign, it is their version that became firmly entrenched in the mind of the overwhelming majority of Israelis. The popular perception of the 1956 war in Israel is that it was a defensive war, a just war, a brilliantly executed war, and a war that achieved nearly all of its objectives. This version of the war was propagated not only by members of the Israeli defense establishment but by a host of sympathetic historians, journalists, and commentators. However deeply cherished, this version does not stand up to scrutiny in the light of the evidence now available. It is a striking example of the way in which history can be manipulated to serve nationalist ends. The official Israeli version of the 1956 war, like that of the 1948 war, is little more than the propaganda of the victor." (Iron Wall, p. 185)

In a nutshell, thearticel says that although the armies of seven Arab countries invaded israel in 1948, (as welas theGrand Muftis forces) in an attempt to strangle the fledgling nation at birth, they LOST!

Why did they lose? Were they out gunned, out manned, out manuevered? No, because the Israelis had their backs to the wall, and retreat wasn't an option.

Had the Arabs (G-d forbid!) won, they would have perpetuated the promised genocide against Jews, and we would never have heard the word, "Palestinian." The Arabs states would have simply divided the territory among themselves and the ancestors of todays "Palestinians" wouldhave been called, "Arabs" just like it was before the name "Palestinians" was made up.

Oh, look. We've been blessed with more cut and paste from Palestine remembered. Its the site ANSWER uses as a reference for "talking points"

Israel was born on May 14, when the British finally left the country. (Happy 58, Haverim!) Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq) immediately invaded. Their intentions were clear- Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League declared "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."

Jordan's Arab Legion was armed and trained by the British, and led by a British officer. At the end of 1948 and beginning of 1949, British RAF planes flew with Egyptian squadrons over the Israel-Egypt border.

The Jews, on the other hand, were forced to smuggle weapons, principally from Czechoslovakia. When Israel declared its independence in May 1948, the army did not have a single cannon or tank. Its air force consisted of nine obsolete planes. Although the Haganah had 60,000 trained fighters, only 18,900 were fully mobilized, armed and prepared for war.

Happy birthday, Israel shelaynu.

Why am I so dumb? Why am I so obsessed? Why can't I just get laid, then maybe I wouldn't have this compulsion to be a zio-nutspammer......
I just feel like such a weak, impotent coward and failure after being slapped like a fly off of Indybay.
I am an ineffectual bot who can't do anything.
I even copy most of the words that I use from other posters. I am a real flake. Another right wing flake for israel.

I met Mark's dad- one of the American volunteers with the Israeli air force in 1948. Lovely, lovely man. Nothing like speaking with an eyewitness to re-enforce what you've already learned form the history books:


On the 1948 War of Independence:

"Point of fact, Israel possessed no up-to-date fighters and bombers. Up to date, at this point were jet aircraft, developed and used at the end of WWII by Germany and used extensively in Korea just 2-3 years after the Israeli War of Independence. The first Israeli Air Force, of which my father was a member, used any type of plane they could find (and absolutely no jet aircraft) to resist the onslaught of combined Arab forces that completely outnumbered those defending the new state of Israel.

Some of these planes were single-engine Piper Cubs from which they threw hand grenades (I guess this is Weir’s “up-to-date” bomber) and surplus Messerschmitts SOLD, not given, to Israel by Czechoslovakia, one of a very few countries that would sell arms to Israel. The US, at that time, would not provide arms to Israel. Sprinkled in and amongst were a hodge-podge of aircraft left over from WWII.

As for the “vastly superior army”, Israel faced a crack army in that of Jordan’s, for example, elite forces trained by the British. And they were vastly outnumbered by the sheer amount of manpower at the disposal of all of the Arab countries that attacked.

I’d like to know what credentials Weir has for her “expert” opinion on the issue. I certainly don’t think she was there. By contrast, my father, and a handful of other foreign volunteers, were. Had it not been for their involvement and the mustering of every able-bodied member of the new state of Israel INCLUDING WOMEN, the state of Israel might not exist today. "

Thank you Mark. Thank you, Marks' dad, for your contributions now, as well as in 1948.

>So in this myth, starving Jews in the Shet'ls and Ghettos of Europe instantly, perhaps while on the boats, transformed into a formitable fighting force and militarily expelled a larger, armed Arab population.

It wasn't "instant." Neither have they "expelled a larger, armed Arab population," at least not yet. But they're trying. They've learned along the way to not call it "expelling." That alienates potential supporters. For a while they tried calling it "transfer." But even that was as blatant a euphamism as "selection." So now they don't talk about it any more. But they control the land from the river to the sea, and they themselves are occupying ever more of it as the years go by. Now they call it "settlement." It's the other side of the "transfer" coin.

Also, note that not all the Jews who fled Europe went to Palestine. Most went somewhere else. The smart ones went to America.

Not all of the ones who went to Palestine were starving, helpless refugees, either. The ones who formed the core of the Zionist army, were veteran partisan fighters. They learned their skills on the Eastern Front. They were some of the best warriors on earth at the the time. They were especially skilled at making do with inferior arms and limited supplies. Primo Levi conveys some sense of their experience in his brilliant, fact based novel "If Not Now, When?" It's a great book. I highly recommend it. Wisely, Levi focuses on the partisans' resistance to Nazi oppression, and leaves off before his protagonists become so corrupted by power that they, themselves became oppressors. Read it anyhow. If you like hearing about ingenious ways to kill Nazis, you'll get a real kick out this book. The list ranges from kitchen knives to runaway trains. It's always good to know things like this. You never know when you might have to use one.

Please delete the forgeries depicting me as a zionist. I am against the Israeli occupation and aggression toward the people of Palestine and do no want to be associated with supporting Israeli terror.
Thank you.

Zionism
Zionism represents itself as a political movement concerned principally with the establishment of a state in Palestine to be controlled by and for Jews. It began in the late 19th Century and attained its stated objective with the creation in 1948 of the state of Israel by the United Nations (at the insistence of the United States and without the agreement of existing Middle Eastern states). Subsequently Israel doubled the amount of territory it controlled by means of its illegal occupation of the West Bank in the 1967 and 1973 wars.
In its current form Zionism seeks to dominate all of Palestine and the Middle East by means of violence and the threat of violence (using weapons manufactured and purchased with billions of dollars of "aid" supplied by the United States) and to maximize its influence in world affairs and in world history, principally by means of control of the government of the USA (primarily by blackmailing its many corrupt politicians), at the expense of the social wellbeing not only of the Palestinians but of the peoples of all lands.

Zionism is not a part of the Jewish religion, but rather is parasitic upon it. Most Zionists are Jews, but not all Jews are Zionists. To condemn Zionism as immoral (racist, vicious and depraved) is not to condemn Judaism.

Zionists claim that Jews have the right to possess all land between the Nile and the Euphrates because (they say) this land was given to them by some entity they call "YHWH" as claimed in the Old Testament (Genesis 15:18). But this would not be the first time that documents written by humans were used to justify land grabs. (And this "YHWH" appears, from accounts in the Old Testament, to be a particularly repulsive entity, vain, jealous, given to fits of rage and directing his followers to massacre civilian populations — an entity who, if he existed, would be quite unworthy of the devotion of anyone with a sense of justice and morality.)

Zionists also lay claim to Palestine because this was territory controlled by two Jewish mini-states, Judah and Samaria, until their destruction by the Romans in the 1st C. CE. To which may be replied: If Zionist claims to a Jewish "homeland" in Palestine, based on Jewish occupation of that area 2000 years ago, are accepted as valid then the claims of North American Indians to their former homeland (all of the United States) and the claims of Australian Aborigines to their former homeland (all of Australia) should also be accepted as valid, and those homelands returned. Not to mention the descendants of the inhabitants of countless mini-states which have risen and fallen over the course of thousands of years of human history. Jews have no more rights than anyone else.

Zionists are not content with having acquired a state of their own in Palestine, they also want this state to be for-Jews-only, thus the desire and intention to expel from Israeli-controlled territory all the indigenous inhabitants (a practice sometimes known as ethnic cleansing, a concept derived from the Nazi practice of "cleansing" areas of all Jews so that those areas are then Judenrein).


The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist movement from its very beginnings, first appearing in Theodore Herzl's diary. In practice, the Zionists began executing a mini-transfer from the time they began purchasing the land and evacuating the Arab tenants.... "Disappearing" the Arabs lay at the heart of the Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition of its existence.... With few exceptions, none of the Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer — or its morality. — Tom Segev, One Palestine, Complete : Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate, quoted at http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_conc1.htm
The Palestinians, being Arabs, are Semites. By their open contempt for, and racist persecution of, the Palestinians the Israelis show that it is they who are the real anti-Semites, and their accusations of anti-Semitism (and the accusations of their American and European coreligionists) cast at all who criticise Jews or Israel amount to no more than blatant hypocrisy.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Zionism and Judaism
Zionism should not be equated with Judaism. The contemptible treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government is supported and approved of by most Israeli Jews but not by all Jews. There are some Jews who are totally opposed to Zionism and to Israel's policies in the occupied territories of the West Bank.

Yep, more forgeries from the anti-Zionists. Are they _trying_ to wreck the shattered remnants of their credibility, or does it just happen all by itself?

@%<

Forgery is bad.
Now it's getting confusing. Which troll is which?
@%<

It real clear to me. "Anti-zionists" have no support for their positions, especially the supprt of Hamas, so since morals, facts ,truth, history and logic aren't on their side, they lie, distort history, spam and false post. Its a pattern.

That's why they're doing it. When they can't convince us with their lies, intimidate us with their death threats, or smother our message with noise, they try to confuse you as to who we are.

Not, not to worry. There's an easy work around. Ignore the byline and judge each comment on its content alone.

What title-deeds do the Jews of today actually have to the land of 'Israel'? The idea that a people can possess some kind of ethnic ancestral right to a territory supposedly vacated by their forebears some millenia previously, implying a right in perpetuity, can have no legal basis. Or otherwise Americans of European ancestry, to name just one group of people, will have to pack their bags.

According to Dr Alfred Lilienthal in his book The Zionist Connection, "The Jewish population of Palestine [what is now Israel and the occupied territories, the West Bank and Gaza] at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917 was a mere 7 percent of the 700,000 inhabitants. The rest were Muslim and Christian Arabs. At the time of the (US-dominated UN) partition vote in 1947 there were only 650,000 Jews in Palestine while there were 1.3 million indigenous Palestinian Arabs, either Christian or Muslim. Under the partition plan, 56% of Palestine was given for a Zionist state to people who constituted 33% of the population and owned about 6% of the land. These UN figures have never been in dispute."

But there is a further issue, which also (yet again!) demonstrates the fundamentally questionable foundations of Zionism.

Jews are actually not even the modern descendents of the Israel of the Biblical Old Testament:

According to both the early-20th-century popular historian H.G.Wells and the Hungarian-Jewish intellectual and author Arthur Koestler, amongst numerous others, the people known today as Jews are primarily the descendents of a Turkish tribe known as the Khazars. The Khazars have no historical connection to Palestine. They converted to Judaism between 620 and 740AD, and have no genetic connection to biblical Israel, and hence to the narratives of the Bible and the "Holy Land". Koestler actually devoted an entire book called The Thirteenth Tribe (1976) to the fact that the Jews of eastern European origin, who are known as the Ashkenazi Jews and who make up about 95% of the Jewish population of today, are of Khazar origin. In other words — virtually all of the Jews of the modern world have no Hebrew ancestry, and no ancient connection with Palestine.

Does it matter? Does world peace matter? Do the human rights of a violently oppressed people matter? Does anything but sport and television sitcoms matter?

Arthur Koestler was by no means the first to draw attention to this particular issue. He quotes from 20th-century works on the subject by, amongst others, Professors A.N.Poliak of Tel Aviv University, D.M. Dunlop of Columbia University in New York, and J.B. Bury of Cambridge University. The courageous Jewish anti-Zionist commentator Dr Alfred Lilienthal raised the issue 50 years ago and has continued to do so for decades. In fact, the famous H.G.Wells in the early 1920s in his popular Outline of History described the Jews as "a Turkish people" and stated that "[to the] Jewish Khazars ... are to be ascribed the great settlements of Jews in Poland and Russia" (Chap. XXXII:8) and "The main part of Jewry never was in Judea, and never came out of Judea" (XXIX:1).

Lord Moyne, the British secretary of state in Cairo, declared on June 9, 1942, in the House of Lords that the Jews were not the descendants of the ancient Hebrews and that they had no "legitimate claim" on the Holy Land. A proponent of curtailing immigration into Palestine, he was accused of being "an implacable enemy of Hebrew independence." (Isaac Zaar, Rescue and Liberation: America's Part in the Birth of Israel, New York: Bloch, 1954, p. 115).

On November 6, 1944, Lord Moyne was assassinated in Cairo by two members of the Stern Gang led by Yitzak Shamir, latter to become premier of Israel. (This assassination was not unique in the history of Zionism. In September 1948 Count Folke Bernadotte, appointed by the UN as mediator between the Zionist settlers in Palestine and the native Palestinians, was murdered on orders from the same Yitzhak Shamir. Count Bernadotte was the head of the Swedish Red Cross and had risked his life to save thousands of Jews from German concentration camps. This set a precedent and encouragement for the Zionist use of assassination as a convenient political instrument, which the US and European governments have in effect condoned since then.)

Much old documentary evidence exists on the subject of the Khazars dating from the ninth and tenth centuries and earlier — from Arab, Byzantine, Hebrew, Russian and other sources. The conversion of the Khazars to Judaism is described in the so-called 'Khazar Correspondence' dating from the tenth century between Hasdai Ibn Shaprut, the Jewish chief minister of the Caliph of Cordoba in Spain, and Joseph, the king of the Khazars. In this the king traces the ancestry of his people not to Shem, father of the Semites, but to Japheth, Noah's third son. The Book of Genesis (10:2,3) itself also describes Ashkenaz as a descendent of Japheth, rather than Shem. In other words, the Jews are not a Semitic people, but their contempt for the Arab world and their bitter and violent war of dispossession against the Palestinian Arabs could be termed anti-Semitic.

The Khazars were formerly well known as a powerful people who, at their peak, 'controlled or exacted tribute from some 30 different nations and tribes' (Koestler), and were the supreme masters of the southern half of eastern Europe for more than a century. The Caspian Sea is still known today in Arabic as Bahr-ul-Khazar, 'the Khazar Sea'. These people controlled trade on the Dnieper, the Don and Volga Rivers between the Swedish Vikings, known as the Rus (the founders of Russia) in the north, and Byzantium-Constantinople (capital of the Eastern Roman Empire), Persia and Arabia in the south. The extent of trade along these rivers is indicated by the very large number of Arab coins, approximately 50,000 found, strangely enough, in Sweden and dating from Viking times.

After their conversion to 'Judaism', a religion based primarily on the teachings of the Pharisees and the Talmud, the Khazars adopted circumcision and became known as the 'Jewish Khazars' and then later simply as 'Jews'. Before the conversion, the 'Jewish' population of the entire region was sparse; afterwards, understandably, it suddenly became large. Writing in the 10th century, the Muslim chronicler Muqaddasi says 'In Khazaria, sheep, honey and Jews exist in large quantities' (Koestler p. 43).

After being defeated by the Rus around 965 AD, the power of the Khazars waned, and a gradual migration commenced westwards and northwestwards into Eastern Europe — the Ukraine, Hungary, Poland and Lithuania. Koestler shows that Yiddish (the former Jewish lingua franca of eastern Europe which is classed as a German dialect) developed not in Germany but in Poland as an amalgam of German, Hebrew and Slavonic (Russian and Polish) — the strong German basis of the language being the result of the German social and cultural prominence in the main cities of Poland in medieval times (Koestler Chapt. VII:3). Hebrew itself was only used for liturgical and rabbinic-scholastic purposes, not for everyday communication. No archaeological or other evidence exists of the use in biblical times of the six-pointed 'star of David', the emblem of the Ashkenazi Jews and the Israeli state, and the yarmulke, the skullcap worn by Jewish males, likewise has no biblical foundation. So neither the use of Hebrew nor the star of David nor the wearing of the yarmulke indicate any historical connection with the territory. Koestler says: "The historical evidence ... indicates that the bulk of Eastern Jewry — and hence of world Jewry — is of Khazar-Turkish, rather than Semitic, origin" (p. 175).

This of course poses various interesting questions on many issues, including that of the violent and manipulative Jewish takeover of Palestine during the last century. The reason these questions are not asked is that the story of the Khazar conversion is generally so little known. The academic, church and media establishments generally have shown no interest in correcting such an awkward and fundamental misperception, the source of so much suffering and spilt blood. They consider the issue to be unimportant or potentially dangerous in spite of the shocking human-rights outrages that the mainly Khazar-descended 'Israelis' and their Khazar-descended international Zionist supporters have perpetrated against the native people in Palestine over the last century.

Is there any doubt about the issue?

The British journalist Douglas Reed, former chief Central European correspondent of the Times, in 1950 wrote "The Eastern European Zionists are not Semites (though the Arabs are), have no semitic blood, and their remote forefathers never trod Palestinian earth."

Mr Benjamin Freedman, a Jewish industrialist born in New York, wrote in the Economic Council Letter published there of October 15 1947: "These Eastern European Jews have neither a racial nor a historic connection with Palestine. Their ancestors were not inhabitants of the Promised Land. They are the direct descendants of the people of the Khazar Kingdom. The Khazars were a non-semitic, Turko-Mongolian tribe."

Mr Freedman was challenged, unwisely, by a Zionist objector. He invited his challenger to go with him to the Jewish Room of the New York Public Library. There they could together examine the Jewish Encyclopaedia volume I pp. 1-12, and the published works of Graetz, Dubnow, Friedlander, Raisin and many other noted Jewish historians, which, as well as other non-Jewish authorities, "establish the fact beyond all possible doubt." (Somewhere South of Suez, 1950, pp. 349-350.)

If the Khazar account is untrue, we can be sure that a swift and comprehensive rebuttal would have followed Koestler's book and Lilienthal's long-standing allegations, let alone those of H.G.Wells. Can anyone name the book or books in which such a rebuttal appeared?

To confuse the Jews of today with the Hebrews of the Bible is like believing that the Cherokee 'Indians' not only follow the Hindu religion but will eventually return in triumph to the valley of the sacred Ganges.

If Joe Vialls was right, then we are on the brink of World War III, specifically because of Zionist neocon crazies willing to bet everything they have — and everything you have, as well — that they can bludgeon the whole world into submission with their money, their weapons, and their hypocritically sanctimonious and psychologically flawed dogma.

But if Joe Vialls was not right, and if he was little more than a would-be writer of sensational fiction thrillers in the style of Robert Ludlum or Tom Clancy, then we're really screwed, because so much he said seems to have so much validity. In a way, if Joe Vialls was wrong, it would mean George Bush and Ariel Sharon were right, and maybe we should nuke the world and obediently worship a Jewish messiah in Israel. So, even if Joe was wrong, in a bass-ackwards, serendipitous way, he was still right, because we know Bush and Sharon are twisted mass murderers willing even to kill their own people. This says something of the remarkable magnitude of what Vialls accomplished.

Joe Vialls hated the Zionist neocon cabal that runs the Western world with a raging passion. In many of his reports he often speculated in great detail about the precise kind of rope that should be used in the hanging of top officials in Washington, London, Tel Aviv, and Canberra (the capital of his adopted country Australia) as punishment for their crimes against humanity.

Here's a salient example of Joe's flammable prose:

Twenty years ago 'The Great Satan' referred only to a collection of murderous Zionist Jews who illegally invaded Palestine in the 1940s, to butcher the residents and steal their land for Ben Gurion's "Yisrael". But as Zionists later took firm control of the United States, and forced the use of American soldiers in the 1990 Gulf War against Iraq, a subtle change slowly took place. In the minds of about 70 percent of the global population, America had simply become Zionist Headquarters, and was thus itself anointed 'The Great Satan'. Nowadays the contempt and hatred of the civilized world is being directed against ordinary American citizens, who in the future will pay a heavy price for failing to remove a handful of Zionist madmen from Wall Street while they still had the chance to do so. The rest of the world will no longer tolerate the megalomanic 'New Zion', and is now taking active steps to destroy it. — http://vialls.net/cowards/byebye.html

Few intelligent observers with an international perspective (which excludes virtually all Americans) would disagree with that as the view of most of the world's beleaguered inhabitants.

Joe Vialls' reports were often so astounding, so over-the-top, so incredibly detailed with seeming ties to top levels of the world's intelligence agencies, and so quickly produced after a whole series of world-shaking events, that it produced two distinct reactions: Either you thought he was some kind of deep-cover intelligence renegade who had chosen to enlighten the public no matter what the risk to his own safety, or he was an extremely resourceful rabble-rouser with possibly multiple purposes in opposing the political chicanery of Israel and its vampiric sycophants known as America, Britain, and Australia.

Those who chose the second option were virtually all of the mainstream media, as well as most of the alternative news community, which threw a blanket over all Joe's stories, no doubt owing in large part to, whether overt or covert, the Zionist orientation of their employers. Right or not, Vialls was simply too hot to handle for all but his most ardent fans, and there were — and are — many, many thousands of those.

But the fact is, he was not always right. Consider this rash prediction:

Based on received intelligence, it seems likely that the Island of Cuba will soon be used as 'point man' in a grand plan to deny American warships and other vessels safe transit through the Gulf of Mexico. Quite apart from thoroughly humiliating New York and Washington, such a move will have a far more devastating effect if tankers are denied access to the southern American oil terminals. Without oil imported through its critical southern oil terminals, and also possibly facing denial of access to underwater oil reserves in the Gulf of Mexico, America will collapse in less than six months. — http://www.vialls.com/myahudi/greatsatan.html

That wild assessment was written Dec. 22, 2004, and it being almost August 2005, the event has not happened. Perhaps time will prove him right, but thus far, there is no indication it will.

He made other mistakes as well that led reputable observers to point out the gaffes: in the Port Arthur massacre story, a misreported plane crash in Holland, and other lesser blunders. But these blemishes worked against his other stupefying assertions, eroded confidence in his stories, which were mostly about Israeli agents committing crimes and blaming them on someone else, principally Muslims.

Plus, all those astounding conclusions to which history has yet to supply convincing verifications or refutations: a micro nuke in Bali, Mossad complicity in the Madrid bombings, etc. Vialls is the only person I know who thought Russia had something to do with 9/11.

Some began to wonder if it weren't Vialls' purpose to come off so outrageously alarming about the Zionist menace that his overstatements would eventually delegitimize his every mind-boggling assertion. In fact, he was later to cause this very own self-inflicted injury to his own reputation in his very most important story.

However, the single most shocking charge he ever leveled (IMHO) involved the unprecedented, horrifying Christmas tragedy in the Indian Ocean.

You see, unless I don't understand English, Joe Vialls has proved that the Dec. 26, 2004 tsunami that killed some 300,000 people in Southeast Asia, India, and Sri Lanka was caused by a nuclear device. He wrote three epic reports that have convinced many that the disastrous Sumatran tsunami was "a nuclear war crime on an unprecedented scale."

"If the tsunami was man-made, then we are unquestionably looking at the biggest single war crime in global history," Joe wrote, and then, as he always did, trotted out graphic science to back it up.

"An earthquake at a convergence fault like the Sumatran Trench cannot create a tsunami under any circumstances," Joe wrote, providing charts and graphs and professional citations that took his readers through every twist and turn of the coverup.

"The media and its tame prostitute 'scientists' have been lying all the way for the USA," he concluded.

"And the big trick right now (in fact the biggest game in town) is to make you believe that a Richter 6.4 earthquake on December 26, created a massive tidal wave powerful enough to murder 300,000+ people, while the infinitely more powerful Richter 8.7 earthquake on March 28 barely rippled the waters of the Indian Ocean."

Read 'em and weep, folks.

http://www.joevialls.net/sumatra/earthquake.html
http://www.joevialls.net/subliminalsuggestion/tsunami.html

Keep an eye out for "seismic signals ... looked curiously similar to those generated many years ago by large underground nuclear weapons in Nevada."

Vialls brought it all back to a familiar boogeyman. "Who is insane enough to kill more than 150,000 civilians just to hang on to power? Based on their past performance in Iraq and other luckless countries, it would seem that the only realistic candidates are Wolfowitz and company, striving as always to create a 'One World Government.'" Vialls suggested.

After unearthing a report about an old OSS plan to destabilize Japan with an earthquake, Vialls cranked out a conclusion full of evidence that appears irrefutable.

http://www.vialls.com/subliminalsuggestion/tsunami2.html

Were it not for a handful of amateur cameramen in Banda Aceh on Boxing Day 2004, we might easily have been fooled into believing that Sumatra, like San Francisco, had been subjected to a naturally-occurring nightmare earthquake, first peddled by the American NOAA at 8.0 on the Richter Scale. Then of course the NOAA realized that 8.0 was simply not enough to cover this thermonuclear sabotage, and developed a new exciting "flexible" Richter Scale to take care of the public relations problem.

Onwards and upwards the NOAA went, from 8.5 to 8.9, and then from 9.0 to 9.1. Finally they managed to convert the single Padang seismic compression spike ... into a whopping great Richter 9.3, sufficient they thought to cover the destruction of the cooling pipes of India's Chennai nuclear reactor in the southern state of Tamil Nadu. The reactor should have been perfectly safe, of course, because the Bay of Bengal has never before experienced a tsunami in recorded history.

"More than a half of the dead are Muslims," Vialls added with his customary anti-Zionist vitriol, "which will no doubt bring a smile to the faces of the perpetrators in New York, because this is a perpetual one-way war against Muslims, Hindus, and even ordinary Christians."

Conclusion: Subsequent earth tremors in the Indian Ocean produced not a trace of a tidal wave. Only one event did, and that, according to Vialls, was caused by a nuclear device.

But while that seems like his most devastating discovery, my favorite story was his 'Fortress Americas' series, which insisted that the true aim of Israeli predators was not merely to create an Eretz Israel that stretched from the Nile to the Euphrates, but rather one that conquered and controlled the entire Western Hemisphere. Four separate reports combined to make a movie script that could bring down the world, were Hollywood not controlled by pro-Israel fanatics. Take together, they are equal to the best-selling potboilers penned by Frederick Forsyth, a popular thriller writer whom Vialls mentioned in one of his pieces.

http://www.vialls.com/myahudi/fortress1.html
http://www.vialls.com/myahudi/fortress2.html
http://vialls.net/cowards/byebye.html
http://vialls.net/cowards/byebye2.html

Joe begins the tale with an evocative rendering of the murderous deception from which the nation of Israel was born, and then begins the story of the real plan, which he says he got from "a disgruntled source at the very top of Zionist chain of command."

Vialls generously concedes that many Jews are the enemies of the Zionists, and they won't fare well when the 'Fortress Americas' objective is achieved. Among his eyepopping claims are that 250,000 Israeli mistravim agents are deployed in the U.S. ready to let loose biological agents, and that the oil fields off the Falkland Islands are ten times the size of Saudi Arabia's petroleum resources.

This was Joe's thesis:

In essence, the entire American continent, from Inuvik in northern Canada to the southern tip of Tierra Del Fuego, is to be invaded and captured for Zionist use, with the cabal exercising central command and control from New York City, currently located in the much smaller United States of America. Within this new massive fortress, the USA will be the focal point of all significant economic activities, with Canada and the former countries of Latin and South America providing the bulk of natural resources and cheap labor.

He then explains how it was Israel that carried out the murder of the American marines in Lebanon during Ronald Reagan's lame tenure in the White House, and explains the principle that Israel follows, which is to weaken America's military as much as possible (an assertion that conveys particular resonance today with the U.S. debacle in Iraq).

It was in this story, I must note, that Joe first started complaining of chest pains.

Despite the sweeping assertions in Joe's 'Fortress Americas' narration, by the time he picked up the story some months later, the whole gist of it had changed.

With 'Fortress Americas' now in tatters because of Russia's coalition with Brazil and Venezuela, Wall Street's neocons and other Zionist traitors will desperately try to avoid War Crimes Tribunals and the waiting hangman's noose, by fleeing aboard special jets to a little-known Australian island. — http://vialls.net/cowards/byebye.html

Thus began Joe's Tasmanian fantasy, of defeated neocons fleeing trial and punishment and flying to a remote retreat, which they would usurp and defend with high-tech weaponry. Regardless that it had no basis in fact and was only speculation, Joe ranted on, as he had with earlier descriptions of how the Russians has furnished Syria and other Arab states with deadly missiles that could destroy the American fleets.

And now he was saying that the balance of power in the world had shifted, and the neocons were bailing. Last time I looked, that simply wasn't true. Cheney's finger is still twitching on the red button.

Somehow the past had become all tangled up with the future, and Joe was writing history as he wished it to be. Still packed with delicious facts and astute political insights, the saga ends with a Russian jet shooting down an airliner full of American Jewish bankers fleeing America before the missiles presumably start raining down on America in the ultimate nuclear nightmare.

The more symbolic types among us might read this as a prescient prediction of our immediate future, but the hard fact is that this has not happened yet, and is such, while it may be prophecy, it necessarily must be categorized as fiction.

So there we have the central enigma in the earthshaking prose of Joe Vialls. To true believers, it blends in with the other passionate anti-Zionist rhetoric. To skeptics, it rings hollow, and to some fellow Australians who have been tracking the particulars of Joe Vialls' meteoric and mercurial literary career, it rings consistent.

Two respectable Aussies — Stewart Beattie, a retired gunsmith from Wagga Wagga, and Andrew MacGregor, an ex-cop from Victoria — have watched the curious Vialls personality for almost 15 years and have come to the conclusion that the pieces of the Vialls puzzle simply don't fit together.

They recount a very public persona who claimed he was the victim of "mind games" and insisted he was under the spell of posthypnotic suggestions, and while they all agreed about the basic deception of the Port Arthur massacre (in which a mentally defective young man was convicted of an inexplicable mass murder right around the time Australia was debating tough new gun control laws), both Beattie and MacGregor became alarmed at Joe's demeanor and his apparently playing fast and loose with the facts.

Beattie's serious digging into the story of what Vialls claimed was his history turned up some suspicious discrepancies, not extraordinary for someone, as Vialls claimed to be, who has worked in the oil industry and had dealings with intelligence agencies.

Beattie also discerned a recurring aspect in Joe's many stories, mostly on the Internet but also in Nexus magazine. It seemed Joe was consumed by the murder of British policewoman Yvonne Fletcher in 1984, which was blamed on Libyans.

Beattie discovered that Joe's real name was Otho Jewell Vialls (listed as owner of the property where he lived in Carine, Western Australia).

Then Beattie read a story written by Vialls that appeared in Nexus called "The Terrorist Factory." In that story, Vialls named the fictional killer as Otto Jewell."

The connection gets more vivid.

According to Beattie, it was an article published in Issue 113 of the ForteanTimes, a UK published periodical promoted as dealing with the 'World of Strange Phenomena'. Accessible at the time of his writing [but no longer] at: http://www.shoah.free-online.co.uk/801/now/wavies.html [but see http://www.geocities.com/mknemesis/mknemesis1.html] the article really should cause any thinking person's alarm bells to jangle:

"In a statement to Lobster editor Robyn Ramsay," Beattie writes, "Vialls now believes he was programmed to kill WPC Yvonne Fletcher outside the Libyan People's Bureau in London, 1984. According to Ramsay, Vialls says he fired on the policewoman from the office of the Hughes Tool Company, a firm long linked to the CIA."

Thus emerges perhaps the subconscious reason why many respected writers on the Internet and elsewhere regard Joe Vialls as too hot to handle, too volatile to be trusted. It also explains that seething razor's edge to his feverish reports.

So what are his devoted fans to think, when the roiling rhetoric of Joe Vialls echoes in their partisan eardrums?

American politicians and officials must be executed with the same attention to detail as any other common criminal, so the 'governed' should make sure that correct protocol is followed. The traditional American hangman's noose has from five to thirteen coils, which slide down the rope delivering a heavy blow to the side of the neck. The modern American coiled noose is prepared in accordance with a procedure laid down in a US army manual, from 30 feet of 3/4" - 1" diameter manila hemp rope, boiled to take out stretch and any tendency to coil. It is formed into six coils and then waxed, soaped or greased to assure that the knot slides easily.

It seems unlikely that the American public in general will be sufficiently motivated to take action for at least another year (or when crude oil prices exceed $100 per barrel), but this does not mean that you personally cannot prepare yourself for the day when New York and Washington's murderous master criminals are brought to justice. If you have time on your hands and a little spare cash, why not drive down to the hardware store and buy a 30' length of manila hemp rope? Pick up a can of axle grease from the gas station on your way home, and then use the twilight hours to grease your rope, and learn how to fashion a really good hangman's noose.

It pays to be ready, and try to remember that this is not a joke, or even simple vengeance for being abused and suppressed by these out-of-control fanatics. Removing these criminals from power, and punishing them for their crimes, is your solemn duty under the Declaration of Independence. — http://www.joevialls.net/sumatra/earthquake.html

Joe wrote this description on his website:

Joe Vialls website exposes media disinformation that covers three major investigations conducted since 1992. The first is an independent investigation into the murder of policewoman Yvonne Fletcher outside the Libyan Embassy in London during 1984, and links to the CIA and Israeli Mossad. The second is an investigation into the bombing of Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie in Scotland during 1988, and the trial of the two accused Libyans at Camp Zeist (Kamp Zeist) in Holland. Once again with links to the CIA and Mossad. The third and last investigation takes a long hard look at the Port Arthur Massacre in Tasmania, Australia, a crime for which intellectually impaired Martin Bryant was convicted without trial.

Needless to say, as one of the most prolific and sensationalistic writers on the Internet, Joe Vialls went much further afield than that, setting himself up as an expert on international politics, military hardware and deep-cover intrigues.

Perhaps he had a better perspective on certain covert matters than any of us dared realize. Whether that makes what he had to say invalid is a matter for debate.

Possibly it was guilt that compelled him to be so driven to expose the psycho government pervs who misused him. Or, the possibility remains that he was warped by his sad history and thus compelled to attempt to salve his sins until the end of his days. Or, one must concede, perhaps his own history was a work of fiction. Yet even this, in my mind, does not neutralize the authenticity of most of his insights and conclusions.

The legendary and prolific Internet polemicist Joe Vialls died a couple of weeks ago [2005-07-17] at his home [in Western Australia], of a heart attack, according to his wife Marilyn. Likely the solution to this mystery died with him.

But the sheer intensity of the Vialls crusade to expose what he saw as a Zionist neocon conspiracy to enslave the world — which is something verified by thousands of principled journalists and ordinary objective observers around the world — combined with the unfathomable mystery of his motivation led me to reconsider and audit my own prejudices about accounts of events that are happening in the world.

It also led me to contemplate the nature of disinformation in these troubled times, especially since I have spent three years trying to decode the nuances, motivation and data of the 9/11 skeptics community without much success. In fact, I may be more confused about that than before I started, although I still have no doubts that 9/11 was an inside job, Israel had a lot to do with it, and the supposed hijackers were at best props — hired hands, used to perform certain functions for large amounts of money

It had occurred to me before these revelations were sent to me by Beattie that Vialls' hyperbole often seemed to miss the mark. His insights about oil in the Falklands and nukes in the Sumatran trench certainly rang my conspiratorial bells, and his evocative mentions of Israeli genocide against the Palestinian people and the folly of America's war for Israel in Iraq resonated with the intense outrage I feel about these same subjects.

But I wondered whether Vialls' seeming overstatements about certain aspects of the Israeli deception didn't impede public comprehension of the threat by being too sensational.

To adequately publicize the Zionist threat to the rest of the unsuspecting world, I feel it is necessary to talk about the Scofield bible, the Rothschild empire, the Federal Reserve legislation in the early part of the 20th century, the Treaty of Versailles, Bernard Baruch, Hollywood, the medical profession becoming drug pushers, the National Education Association essentially being a Zionist outfit designed to turn America's children into zombies, and more categories like those.

Vialls' propensity to focus on missiles and violence I found entertaining in a shoot-'em-up sort of way, and that probably got the attention of lots of people who like those kinds of movies, but in a funny way, they moved us away from some of the real problems, problems that affect us that we don't always see, that have allowed a majority of the American people to think it's OK to torture innocent Muslims, rape innocent Iraqi women and boys, and all the while making themselves sick with their own poisoned ammunition. I mean, Dante couldn't have constructed a more realistic vision of hell, and apparently, many Americans appear to revel in this insane debauchery of innocents.

Still, it is undeniable that there are a multitude of Israeli agents running around the world committing false flag crimes and blaming them on the Islamic world, which is what 9/11 was, and, according to Vialls, the atrocities in Bali, Madrid, Istanbul, Mogadishu, Istanbul and London. I believe Vialls is right about all that. There's a massive coverup of who the true criminals are, and the mainstream media as well as major law enforcement authorities are complicit in all these hellish crimes.

I also have cause to reflect on my own anti-Israel, Talmud/Bible suspicious orientation and I am reminded of the words of my archenemy in the 9/11 skeptics movement, another Australian named Gerard Holmgren, who, upon hearing my intent to drag Israel with its Silverstein/Wolfowitz/Zakheim connections to the perfidy of that tragic day into the heated debate reminded me forcefully that America doesn't need anyone else to blame for its horrendous, bloodthirsty past, which started with the obliteration of the continent's natives followed by a truly diabolical string of massacres around the planet while "making the world safe for democracy" (as we continue to do now in Iraq). Holmgren's point is well taken.

No, America never needed any help at all. Though the Jews/Zionists/Israelis may be in ascendance now in the worldwide violence category, they have merely assumed the title from the previous champs and still record-holding White Anglo Saxon Protestants, who themselves took the title from the Roman Catholic blood machine of Dark Ages/Inquisition fame.

And on and on goes the human race, killing each other at breakneck speed to prove they don't die. Yay God. Worship, all ye faithful, your bloodthirsty God, and observe where we have wound up.

Does the dark secret of Joe Vialls' past make his reports invalid? Or do they make them more real?

That's why I said at the top of this long screed, that even if Joe Vialls was over the top or even dead wrong about some things, he is still right. Because if we continue to let the Zionist neocon crazies, who have the WASP Protestant and the Roman Catholic hierarchies in their political and philosophical pocket, continue to pillage the planet and insist they are acting in the name of their bloodthirsty God, what hope is there for any of us?

Whether Joe was right or Joe was wrong, the vast majority of ordinary people on this planet are definitely headed for a new and terrible kind of either death or slavery. Which makes Joe, regardless of the personal secrets he chose to hide or the accounts he chose to hyperbolize, absolutely and terrifyingly right.

Lately I have involved myself in topics about which I seem to offend partisans on both sides of the same question.

As a journalist, this gives me great satisfaction, because true objectivity demands constructive criticism of both sides of any given issue, and in this I often succeed. But as a human being, it frustrates me that everybody from all points of the political spectrum can be so blindly biased; so unwilling to admit their own faults; so profoundly dense not to see that other people's arguments are often the same as their own though couched in different terms; so lacking in understanding, empathy, and fairness; so selfishly parochial as a new unprecedented worldwide disaster closes in on us.

Like, why should the United States have the right to declare other nations not suited to possess weapons of mass destruction? Or, why should one country have them (Israel) and another country not (Iraq)? Does it all hinge on Condoleezza Rice's statement that we are a nation of truth and goodness and can determine what is right for everyone? And what of those who disagree? Are they wrong? Are they evil? Isn't the United States the country most likely to use weapons of mass destruction?

No wonder there are so many wars. Everybody says they're listening, but nobody's hearing anything, because everyone's consciousness is set up in such a way that they believe they are right, and anybody who says anything else is automatically an evil enemy. Objectivity seems to be an impossibility, determined entirely by those who control the methods of communication.

This process of getting caught in the middle of these kinds of arguments and being blasted from both sides regularly happens to me because I consort with people from all angles of the political spectrum, from pistol packing Patriots to grandmoms eager to lay in the street in front of tanks. Both groups, the nobility of whose motives are not really to be questioned, routinely fall into the careless use of stereotypes to characterize the nefarious forces they believe oppress them.

The Patriots call the Clintons Communists when they are actually cynical stooges for corporate totalitarians, and the lefties tag those on the way-right as selfish gun-toting racists when they are actually arguing for principles that would enrich all our lives. But seen from a slightly different angle, those same Patriots (and libertarians, too) become shills for those very processes that now threaten to plunge the world into the darkness of war, and liberal lefties — who preach that if we all don't make it to freedom and security, none of us are going to make it — are all too often oblivious to the destruction of individual rights that they themselves espouse in their political campaigns. Never the twain seems to meet.

Anyway, the latest tar baby that has attached itself to my butt involves really kind of a toss-off line I used in my last essay about "The Dead Zone," when I waxed poetic that I was sitting on the shore of Vichy France waiting for the American bombers to arrive and change the nature of the world. To those certain few of my e-penpals who have identified with my previous critiques of Israel's fascist behavior throughout recent decades, it was as if I'd blasphemed the messiah.

How could I denigrate Hitler, when he was clearly a victim of the Western chapter of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy which set him up to take the big fall?

Whoa, Nellie! Just because I happen to believe in that worldwide Jewish conspiracy doesn't mean I have to believe that the little fruitcake with the funny mustache was a good guy. I mean, nobody made him invade France, Poland, Czechoslovakia and all those other countries. Nobody made him preach a gospel of racial superiority (that now, very oddly, seems to have been adopted by the Jews) and herd his little coterie of black-uniformed twits into venom-spewing, hate-mongering robots out to obliterate the rest of the world.

No conspiracy made him do that. He took the ball and ran with it.

Just because I believe that Western business interests have manipulated worldwide markets and armies into numerous wars doesn't make me a fan of someone who wanted to take over the world.

But the real reason I can't identify with Hitler is that I can see from his philosophical descendants that he was pure, insane evil. And who are those philosophical descendants? Well, they are the Bush family, tied into the Hitler legacy through the second Bush president's forebears, Herbert Walker and Prescott Bush, who both made millions off their backing of German businesses during World War II. This is no fiction. Do a Google search. It's easy to find. These are Hitler's real philosophical descendants: the pro-war, Zionist Christian Republican establishment.

The Nazi legacy was passed to the conquering Americans through the CIA and the Dulles brothers, and the American space program, which wouldn't have succeeded without the help of German scientists. Nazi principles live on in the American corporate establishment, which condones absolutely anything in the name of profit and now has been given its favorite Nazi gift: the indefinite imprisonment (or even murder) of mere suspects without trial or appeal.

Yes, I can believe there was funny stuff going on prior to WW II involving Jewish control of the media and the financial markets that uncannily reflects what is going on now. I know about the implications of the Balfour declaration: Germany would have won World War I, except that Jewish interests got the U.S. to enter the war after Britain made a secret promise to Zionists that they could have Palestine. But no, despite what was major provocative Jewish propaganda against him, I still believe Hitler was a white racist bent on destroying anybody who didn't have the kind of genetic heritage he preferred (and didn't even possess himself).

But just because I revile Hitler doesn't mean I believe the fictions the Jewish dominated media have spun about the Holocaust. I have been driven irrevocably into the category of Holocaust denier (a 1947 AP story said 875,000 Jews were killed in Germany during WW II) simply because of the way the Jewish community has trumpeted its martyrdom for financial gain, how the Jewish community has destroyed freedom of speech in a dozen European countries by making it a crime to talk about the events that led up to World War II.

I mean, if what the Jews were saying were actually true, they wouldn't need to pass laws to prevent their opponents from talking about it. They'd simply defeat them in an empirical argument, or in a court of law.

But to pass laws about talking about the events of World War II ... I mean, that's almost as bad as George W. Bush preventing a thorough investigation into the events of 9/11/2001. It's a certain admission of guilt, an undeniable indication of a falsehood being perpetrated.

I submit the degree to which a reader of this may be horrified by this pronouncement is exactly the degree to which this same reader has been indoctrinated by media myths that severely alter the truth.

And when you realize that the Jewish community has stamped out freedom of speech throughout much of Europe, you naturally have to ask what that same group has done to legitimate political debate in the United States of America.

Back in World War II, there never was much coverage about how Eisenhower let two million Germans starve to death in French prison camps that didn't even have buildings or latrines, an event surely as shameful as German concentration camps. [See Mass Starvation of Germans, 1945-1950.]

It's more of the same today. Nothing on TV or the big newspapers about the investigations into 9/11 or the anthrax murders, no coverage of the Palestinians being caged up in prison camps and murdered indiscriminately by bulldozers and helicopters on a daily basis, and not an audible peep about how it is Israel that has violated U.N. mandates about weapons of mass destruction and inhuman treatment of political prisoners. Yet the U.S. gives Israel so much money ($14 billion per year) that it has begun to tip over the entire American economy, and still not a peep in the American mass media ... because it is totally controlled by Jewish interests. This is not an exaggeration, no matter what trendy, left-leaning mass media observers like FAIR have to say about it.

But that still doesn't mean I have to like Hitler, or think he was right about anything, least of all Aryan superiority.

Same deal with Saddam. I can rail against how unjust and immoral the continuing target practice against Iraq is without saying anything nice about the Iraqi leader. Hell, the worst thing I can say about him was that he was a partner of the Bush family in acquiring weapons of mass destruction for his war against the truly legitimate democracy of Iran.

So, the Nazis say I'm soft on Israel because I don't like Hitler, and Jews call me an anti-Semite because I don't like Israeli soldiers putting bullets through the heads of old ladies and little babies. Everywhere I look I'm busted.

Anti-Semite. Hah. That's a laugh.

As many observers have written recently, an anti-Semite used to mean someone who hated Jews because they were Jews. Now, the term anti-Semite is used by Jews to tar and feather anyone who disagrees with Jewish policies, influences, and effects. Complain about Israelis burying alive Palestinian residents of Jenin and Jews say you're an anti-Semite. Wonder about the preponderance of Jewish influence on the American government and you're an anti-Semite. Worst of all were the recent remarks by Harvard president Lawrence Summers and his henchman Alan Dershowitz, who decried the recent rise of anti-Semitism. All this means to me is that Harvard is no longer a great university, but just another influential vehicle for Jewish propaganda. Check out the school's Enron investments sometime.

It's not a rise of anti-Semitism; it's a rise of disgust by thoughtful people who are appalled by the Jewish failure to admit the appalling crimes against humanity their Israeli cousins are perpetrating against the dark-skinned peoples of the region, and their political double agents are doing to the integrity of the American government.

This is a smokescreen kind of lie in which Jews exploited the so-called Holocaust for a kind of political immunity. Let's be nice to them because they've had a hard time, everyone was encouraged to think. And now we have more of the same: a worldwide wave of anti-Semitism used to camouflage obvious genocide in the Middle East.

I'm not an anti-Semite. I'm anti-Israel, an illegal nation which has inherited all the worst traits of Hitler's regime and passed them onto the United States. And I'm anti-Jew because there are so few Jews with the honesty to admit their beloved sanctuary of Israel is a lethal menace to every decent nation and ethnic group on earth, including itself. This too is a Jewish legacy that has been successfully passed to the United States.

Anti-Semite. That's a good one.

Jews aren't Semites at all; they're Turkic Mongols, who stormed their way across Asia with Genghis Khan 1500 years ago, became Khazars in the Ukraine a thousand years ago, adopted Judaism as a political strategy, then infiltrated eastern Europe, always ashamed of their Oriental lineage, which they have done their best to conceal.

But it's no secret; they're still behaving like Genghis Khan, taking what they want and lying about it. They picked up a lot of good pointers from Hitler, that's all. They have become like Hitler, but they always were like Hitler, because they're a lot like Genghis Khan, the greatest butcher of all time (although the Bushes are in the running), because they're descended from him.

It's a terrible hoax, just like the Holocaust. Zionists had an office at Hitler's headquarters to funnel a "chosen" few to Palestine. And because Zionists controlled the American media, we fell for the myth of the Holocaust, although it wasn't really introduced into the public until 20 years after the war ended. Just like we're falling for it now — Israel freedom fighters against Palestinian terrorists. Hah. Israelis are stealing Palestinian land. They, and we, are the real terrorists.

America, controlled by Israel, is the genuine terrorist threat, just like the Christian crusaders of long ago were the real terrorists butchering the indigenous inhabitants of Arabia and India. Just look at any of the current polls. The whole world knows the real axis of evil: America, Britain and Israel, trying to bribe the whole world into seeing things in their ugly way. Everybody knows this except the American people, who are kept in the dark by Jewish media.

We are the real terrorists, people. Time to wake up.

Having said all this, I can't fault the Jews for being to any great degree worse than anyone else. Consider the Europeans, from whom most of you reading this are descended. Consider the European heritage from an American Indian perspective.

Who are the real killers now? Who are the true manipulators now? Pass out the smallpox blankets, people. Just plead guilty and take the deal. It's too late to argue. The verdict has been in for more than a century. It's just that you don't hear it because the media are all controlled by Europeans and Jews, trying hard to tell us what great folks we are, and how we have the right to destroy the world in order to rule. Just like Genghis Khan. We are all descended from Genghis Khan. Or Charlemagne. Same difference.

I don't have to prove any of this to anyone, because I don't want to kill anyone to defend a deep dark secret, and they do. They want to kill to take what they want so they can keep their deep dark secret.

Nothing gets fixed until the secret gets exposed. The secret is this: there are no colors and no nationalities. We are all members of the same tribe. Those who establish differences are just trying to make money off conflict. It's no more complex than that.

But in this game of political roulette happening right now on the eve of World War III, it's just a case of heads they win, tails we lose. It's a coin flip we can't win. The minute you turn on the TV or open a well-known newspaper, the game is fixed. Reasons to kill are plentiful and continually repeated: "They hate our freedom."

I'm going to lose the argument no matter what I say, because everyone has been conditioned to believe that there has to be good and there has to be evil. No one — or damn few, anyway — have even considered the possibility that the striving for this "good" is the very thing that creates the "evil."

Consider this conversation I had with two schoolteachers the other night. Of course, I managed to offend both of them. One asked me what to do about children he could not reach, because they were only interested in computer-game retribution and seeing things in black and white.

I told him he wouldn't gain their confidence until he convinced them he believed there was a conspiracy against them. Silence followed. All teenagers know there's a conspiracy against them. They feel like adults but they're treated like kids. It's only the adults who pretend there isn't a conspiracy. And there is a conspiracy: kids are honest, adults are not. These same adults are the ones who wave the flag and support war.

I can argue til I'm blue in the face that the human race has been conditioned to look to war and conflict as a way to solve its problems, but until each one of us in an actualized way realizes that we die and are not going to some holy place in the sky because we've exterminated those we've decided are infidels or enemies, nothing is going to get fixed, no message of peace — no matter how articulate and compassionate — is ever going to get through to us, because we're always going to have that enemy to be vanquished — even though the true enemy is always ourselves.

My response was greeted with uncomfortable silence. I had given them the right answer, but they couldn't even hear it. It made me wonder what myths they would actually teach.

So this is how I manage to offend people on both sides of the same issue. I like to think it's good journalism, which is more important to me than whether you like me, or agree with me.

And damn! I think I've just done it again.

Why don't we let Toady keep himself amused and we can all go meet somewhere where saner minds prevail?

At the next Zionist conspiracy meeting, we should pool our funds and get him a puppy, or a blow up latex doll. He needs a new hobby.

Its not even worth dignifying this crap with comments.

Why don't we go get this zionist forger something like a good dildo?
Let's get it straight. I'm the real Tia and I am firmly against Zionism. Zionism is racism. Period.

Thank you, Becky, once again, for elevating the quality of debate.

This is from Ziff "The Rape of Palestine" (1938)
Dr. W.E. Blackstone, quoting the foremost authorities on international law, pointed out in 1891 that since the Jews never gave up their title to Palestine, the general "law of dereliction" could not hold in in their case; "for they never abandoned the land. They made no treaty; they did not even surrender. They simply succumbed, after the most desperate conflict, to the overwhelming power of the Romans...and were captured or enslaved...Since then, having no sovereign nor political head through whom they could speak, they have disputed the possession of their land by continued protest through their literature and their public and private worship...
Blackstone quotes the outstanding leading legal luminaries of his day, who agree that the Jewish claim was legally, at least, sound that the Jewish claim is legally sound. He points out that according to the logical precedents established by such authorities as Buswell, Wheaton, Clifford, Phillimore and others, "the forcible manner by which Israel has been kept out of the land, with no means of redress, is equivalent in principle to a continued state of war..."
The greatest legal authorities have agreed that according to the foundation principles of international law there is no basis for prescription against Israel... therefore THE JEWS HAVE A VALID CLAIM ON PALESTINE AS LONG AS THERE IS A SINGLE ZIONIST ALIVE"

Quoting the Britannica, "Although Zionism originated in eastern and central Europe in the late 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient and deep-felt nationalist attachment of the Jews and of the Jewish religion to Palestine, the promised land where one of the hills of ancient Jerusalem was called Zion. This attachment to Zion continued to inspire the Jews throughout the Middle Ages and found its expression in many important parts of their liturgy". ["Zionism," Britannica 2002 Deluxe Edition]

Zionism has emerged even earlier than cited in the Britannica. Psalm 137 "Besides the streams of Babylon we sat and wept at the memory of Zion... Jerusalem, if I forget you, may my right hand wither, may I never speak again, if I forget you!" is a twenty-five hundred years old Zionist expression. Nehemiah, who came to Jerusalem about 440 BCE, giving up a high position in the Persian court, was a Zionist and so was Hillel who emigrated from Mesopotamia four hundred years later. So was Judah Halevi, the philosopher poet who wrote "Better a day in the land of God than a thousand on foreign soil, the ruins on the Holy mount than coronation halls..." Halevi immigrated to Israel in 1141. So were hundreds of Jewish Rabbis who immigrated to Israel in 1211, followed by Nahmanides in 1267. And so were hundreds of other Jewish spiritual leaders and scholars and thousands of their followers who came to the Land of Israel over hundreds of years, way before the modern political Zionist movement was even born.

There they go again, invoking the supernatural to justify their naked aggression.

It sort of puts one in mind of the ancient Israelites. You know, the people whose cause the Zionists claim to be carrying on.

These guys:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

(snip)

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

(snip)

NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."

NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."

(snip)

NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."

JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."

JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."

JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.

JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."

JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.

JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.

JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

(snip)

* * * * *

And so forth.

Tia:
Why don't we let Toady keep himself amused and we can all go meet somewhere where saner minds prevail?

Like where? We need to establish email contact or something to make that happen.


Tia:
Its not even worth dignifying this crap with comments.

Maybe we should let this freeloading parasite wimp echo himself here for a week or so hoping he'll find something better to do in the interim?

A must see for the open mind.
Remember, the mind is like a parachute, it works best when open.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/index.cfm

someone, Toady presumably, forging Tia: "A must see for the open mind."

The Neturai Karta are a tiny little self-publicizing sect whose idea of a good time is going to Iran and sucking up to the dictator. They are to the Jewish world what Toady is to humanity in general: an tiny little embarrassment.

@%<

http://www.nkusa.org/
Looks like there's quite a few, as opposed to gehrig's depiction of a small fringe group....
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/
and more Jews against the occupation/war on Palestine:
http://www.jatonyc.org/
Here's their mission:
Jews Against the Occupation

Our Mission

Jews Against the Occupation is an organization of progressive, secular and religious Jews of all ages throughout the New York City area advocating peace through justice for Palestine and Israel. Our points of unity are as follows:




NO OCCUPATION IN OUR NAME


We as American Jews reject the Israeli government assertion that it is "necessary" to subjugate Palestinians for the sake of keeping Jews safe. We assert that security can only come from mutual respect, and that the occupation of Palestine is only worsening the position of Jews in the Middle East and around the world.



RESTORE HUMAN & CIVIL RIGHTS


The Israeli military fires bone-crushing rubber bullets and live ammunition at unarmed Palestinian civilians engaged in peaceful protest, failing to distinguish between peaceful and violent resistance. The Israeli government has been demolishing Palestinian houses and crops in the Occupied Territories, while allowing Jewish settlers -- many of them American -- to illegally occupy the same land.



END U.S. AID TO ISRAEL


The U.S. government provides more aid to Israel than to any other country—the vast majority of this is for military purposes. Billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars have propped up the occupation and fueled the Israeli government’s war machine (as well as disguising the occupation’s true cost). This aid must end.



STOP ECONOMIC ATTACKS ON PALESTINE


The Israeli government has attacked the Palestinian economy by: closing Palestinian banks; imposing extreme taxes on business; withdrawing operating licenses; destroying industrial equipment; bulldozing farmland and banning fishing; restricting workers' movement; controlling the export of Palestinian goods; closing the borders of the Occupied Territories; and refusing to fund infrastructure like water and electricity -- even in Arab villages within Israel.



LET PALESTINIANS RETURN HOME


Thousands of Palestinians were driven out of their houses and off of their farms during and after the creation of Israel. They must be allowed to return to their homeland.



ANTI-SEMITISM VS. CRITIQUES OF ISRAEL

Jews Against the Occupation stands firmly against anti-Semitism and racism in all its forms. We see our historical struggle against anti- Semitism--a cornerstone of European white supremacist ideology--as inherently linked to all struggles against oppression. We therefore stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people in their struggle for freedom.

Judaism is a cultural and religious identity, which must not be equated with Zionism, a political movement. Criticism of the state of Israel, its policies, or the idea of a Jewish state does not by itself constitute anti-Semitism. Dismissing critics of Israel or of Zionism as "anti-Semitic" is a means of stifling debate and masking the impact of the occupation.

Here's a good site:
http://www.jatonyc.org/
also, here's another one!
www.ifamericansknew.org

This 'indybay' guy must be the same nut who made the zionist forgeries of me earlier. Let's get this clear:
I am not a zionist. I am anti-zionist
In fact, I support Jewsih Voice for Peace:
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

So is spam, but that never stopped him:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y28916948

I just use that name to get zionist's attention because I know they won't bother reading anything that doesn't support their nutty right wing views...so I just real 'em in by saying that I'm blocked at indybay.

I am the real 'autoblocked' and i am not a zionist.
I don't support Israeli apartheid at all.
http://www.canpalnet.ca/

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0420,perlstein,53582,1.html
The Jesus Landing Pad
Bush White House checked with rapture Christians before latest Israel move

by Rick Perlstein
May 18th, 2004 10:00 AM









It was an e-mail we weren't meant to see. Not for our eyes were the notes that showed White House staffers taking two-hour meetings with Christian fundamentalists, where they passed off bogus social science on gay marriage as if it were holy writ and issued fiery warnings that "the Presidents [sic] Administration and current Government is engaged in cultural, economical, and social struggle on every level"—this to a group whose representative in Israel believed herself to have been attacked by witchcraft unleashed by proximity to a volume of Harry Potter. Most of all, apparently, we're not supposed to know the National Security Council's top Middle East aide consults with apocalyptic Christians eager to ensure American policy on Israel conforms with their sectarian doomsday scenarios.
But now we know.

"Everything that you're discussing is information you're not supposed to have," barked Pentecostal minister Robert G. Upton when asked about the off-the-record briefing his delegation received on March 25. Details of that meeting appear in a confidential memo signed by Upton and obtained by the Voice.

The e-mailed meeting summary reveals NSC Near East and North African Affairs director Elliott Abrams sitting down with the Apostolic Congress and massaging their theological concerns. Claiming to be "the Christian Voice in the Nation's Capital," the members vociferously oppose the idea of a Palestinian state. They fear an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza might enable just that, and they object on the grounds that all of Old Testament Israel belongs to the Jews. Until Israel is intact and Solomon's temple rebuilt, they believe, Christ won't come back to earth.

Abrams attempted to assuage their concerns by stating that "the Gaza Strip had no significant Biblical influence such as Joseph's tomb or Rachel's tomb and therefore is a piece of land that can be sacrificed for the cause of peace."

Three weeks after the confab, President George W. Bush reversed long-standing U.S. policy, endorsing Israeli sovereignty over parts of the West Bank in exchange for Israel's disengagement from the Gaza Strip.

In an interview with the Voice, Upton denied having written the document, though it was sent out from an e-mail account of one of his staffers and bears the organization's seal, which is nearly identical to the Great Seal of the United States. Its idiosyncratic grammar and punctuation tics also closely match those of texts on the Apostolic Congress's website, and Upton verified key details it recounted, including the number of participants in the meeting ("45 ministers including wives") and its conclusion "with a heart-moving send-off of the President in his Presidential helicopter."

Upton refused to confirm further details.

Affiliated with the United Pentecostal Church, the Apostolic Congress is part of an important and disciplined political constituency courted by recent Republican administrations. As a subset of the broader Christian Zionist movement, it has a lengthy history of opposition to any proposal that will not result in what it calls a "one-state solution" in Israel.

The White House's association with the congress, which has just posted a new staffer in Israel who may be running afoul of Israel's strict anti-missionary laws, also raises diplomatic concerns.

The staffer, Kim Hadassah Johnson, wrote in a report obtained by the Voice, "We are establishing the Meet the Need Fund in Israel—'MNFI.' . . . The fund will be an Interest Free Loan Fund that will enable us to loan funds to new believers (others upon application) who need assistance. They will have the opportunity to repay the loan (although it will not be mandatory)." When that language was read to Moshe Fox, minister for public and interreligious affairs at the Israeli Embassy in Washington, he responded, "It sounds against the law which prohibits any kind of money or material [inducement] to make people convert to another religion. That's what it sounds like." (Fox's judgment was e-mailed to Johnson, who did not return a request for comment.)

The Apostolic Congress dates its origins to 1981, when, according to its website, "Brother Stan Wachtstetter was able to open the door to Apostolic Christians into the White House." Apostolics, a sect of Pentecostals, claim legitimacy as the heirs of the original church because they, as the 12 apostles supposedly did, baptize converts in the name of Jesus, not in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Ronald Reagan bore theological affinities with such Christians because of his belief that the world would end in a fiery Armageddon. Reagan himself referenced this belief explicitly a half-dozen times during his presidency.

While the language of apocalyptic Christianity is absent from George W. Bush's speeches, he has proven eager to work with apocalyptics—a point of pride for Upton. "We're in constant contact with the White House," he boasts. "I'm briefed at least once a week via telephone briefings. . . . I was there about two weeks ago . . . At that time we met with the president."

Last spring, after President Bush announced his Road Map plan for peace in the Middle East, the Apostolic Congress co-sponsored an effort with the Jewish group Americans for a Safe Israel that placed billboards in 23 cities with a quotation from Genesis ("Unto thy offspring will I give this land") and the message, "Pray that President Bush Honors God's Covenant with Israel. Call the White House with this message." It then provided the White House phone number and the Apostolic Congress's Web address.

In the interview with the Voice, Pastor Upton claimed personal responsibility for directing 50,000 postcards to the White House opposing the Road Map, which aims to create a Palestinian state. "I'm in total disagreement with any form of Palestinian state," Upton said. "Within a two-week period, getting 50,000 postcards saying the exact same thing from places all over the country, that resonated with the White House. That really caused [President Bush] to backpedal on the Road Map."

When I sought to confirm Upton's account of the meeting with the White House, I was directed to National Security Council spokesman Frederick Jones, whose initial response upon being read a list of the names of White House staffers present was a curt, "You know half the people you just mentioned are Jewish?"

When asked for comment on top White House staffers meeting with representatives of an organization that may be breaking Israeli law, Jones responded, "Why would the White House comment on that?"

When asked whose job it is in the administration to study the Bible to discern what parts of Israel were or weren't acceptable sacrifices for peace, Jones said that his previous statements had been off-the-record.

When Pastor Upton was asked to explain why the group's website describes the Apostolic Congress as "the Christian Voice in the nation's capital," instead of simply a Christian voice in the nation's capital, he responded, "There has been a real lack of leadership in having someone emerge as a Christian voice, someone who doesn't speak for the right, someone who doesn't speak for the left, but someone who speaks for the people, and someone who speaks from a theocratical perspective."

When his words were repeated back to him to make sure he had said a "theocratical" perspective, not a "theological" perspective, he said, "Exactly. Exactly. We want to know what God would have us say or what God would have us do in every issue."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Middle East was not the only issue discussed at the March 25 meeting. James Wilkinson, deputy national security advisor for communications, spoke first and is characterized as stating that the 9-11 Commission "is portraying those who have given their all to protect this nation as 'weak on terrorism,' " that "99 percent of all the men and women protecting us in this fight against terrorism are career citizens," and offered the example of Frances Town-send, deputy national security adviser for combating terrorism, "who sacrificed Christmas to do a 'security video' conference."

Tim Goeglein, deputy director of public liaison and the White House's point man with evangelical Christians, moderated, and he also spoke on the issue of same-sex marriage. According to the memo, he asked the rhetorical questions: "What will happen to our country if that actually happens? What do those pushing such hope to gain?" His answer: "They want to change America." How so? He quoted the research of Hoover Institute senior fellow Stanley Kurtz, who holds that since gay marriage was legalized in Scandinavia, marriage itself has virtually ceased to exist. (In fact, since Sweden instituted a registered-partnership law for same-sex couples in the mid '90s, there has been no overall change in the marriage and divorce rates there.)

It is Matt Schlapp, White House political director and Karl Rove's chief lieutenant, who was paraphrased as stating "that the Presidents Administration and current Government is engaged in cultural, economical, and social struggle on every level."

Also present at the meeting was Kristen Silverberg, deputy assistant to the president for domestic policy. (None of the participants responded to interview requests.)

The meeting was closed by Goeglein, who was asked, "What can we do to assist in this fight for these issues and our nations [sic] foundation and values?" and who reportedly responded, "Pray, pray, pray, pray."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Apostolic Congress's representative in Israel, Kim Johnson, is ethnically Jewish, keeps kosher, and holds herself to the sumptuary standards of Orthodox Jewish women, so as to better blend in to her surroundings.

In one letter home obtained by the Voice she notes that many of the Apostolic Christians she works with in Israel are Filipino women "married to Jewish men—who on occasion accompany their wives to meetings. We are planning to start a fellowship with this select group where we can meet for dinners and get to know one another. Please Pray for the timing and formation of such." Elsewhere she talks of a discussion with someone "on the pitfalls and aggravations of Christians who missionize Jews." She works often among the Jewish poor—the kind of people who might be interested in interest-free loans—and is thrilled to "meet the outcasts of this Land—how wonderful because they are in the in-casts for His Kingdom."

An ecstatic figure who from her own reports appears to operate at the edge of sanity ("Two of the three nights in my apartment I have been attacked by a hair raising spirit of fear," she writes, noting the sublet contained a Harry Potter book; "at this time I am associating it with witchcraft"), Johnson has also met with Knesset member Gila Gamliel. (Gamliel did not respond to interview requests.) She also boasted of an imminent meeting with a "Knesset leader."

"At this point and for all future mails it is important for me to note that this country has very stiff anti-missionary laws," she warns the followers back home. [D]iscretion is required in all mails. This is particularly important to understand when people write mails or ask about organization efforts regarding such."

Her boss, Pastor Upton, displays a photograph on the Apostolic Congress website of a meeting between himself and Beny Elon, Prime Minister Sharon's tourism minister, famous in Israel for his advocacy of the expulsion of Palestinians from Israeli-controlled lands.

His spokesman in the U.S., Ronn Torassian, affirmed that "Minister Elon knows Mr. Upton well," but when asked whether he is aware that Mr. Upton's staffer may be breaking Israel's anti-missionary laws, snapped: "It's not something he's interested in discussing with The Village Voice."

In addition to its work in Israel, the Apostolic Congress is part of the increasingly Christian public face of pro-Israel activities in the United States. Don Wagner, author of the book Anxious for Armageddon, has been studying Christian Zionism for 15 years, and believes that the current hard-line pro-Israel movement in the U.S. is "predominantly gentile." Often, devotees work in concert with Jewish groups like Americans for a Safe Israel, or AFSI, which set up a mostly Christian Committee for a One-State Solution as the sponsor of last year's billboard campaign. The committee's board included, in addition to Upton, such evangelical luminaries as Gary Bauer and E.E. "Ed" McAteer of the Religious Roundtable.

AFSI's executive director, Helen Freedman, confirms the increasingly Christian cast of her coalition. "We have many good Jews, of course," she says, "but they're in the minority." She adds, "The liberal Jew is unable to believe the Arab when he says his goal is to Islamize the West. . . . But I believe it. And evangelical Christians believe it."

Of Jews who might otherwise support her group's view of Jews' divine right to Israel, she laments, "They're embarrassed about quoting the Bible, about referring to the Covenant, about talking about the Promised Land."

Pastor Upton is not embarrassed, and Helen Freedman is proud of her association with him. She is wistful when asked if she, like Upton, has been able to finagle a meeting with the president. "Pastor Upton is the head of a whole Apostolic Congress," she laments. "It's a nationwide group of evangelicals."

Upton has something Freedman covets: a voting bloc.

She laughs off concerns that, for Christian Zionists, actual Jews living in Israel serve as mere props for their end-time scenario: "We have a different conception of what [the end of the world] will be like . . . Whoever is right will rejoice, and whoever was wrong will say, 'Whoops!' "

She's not worried, either, about evangelical anti-Semitism: "I don't think it exists," she says. She does say, however, that it would concern her if she learned the Apostolic Congress had a representative in Israel trying to win converts: "If we discovered that people were trying to convert Jews to Christianity, we would be very upset."



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Kim Johnson doesn't call it converting Jews to Christianity. She calls it "Circumcision of the Heart"—a spiritual circumcision Jews must undergo because, she writes in paraphrase of Jeremiah, chapter 9, "God will destroy all the uncircumcised nations along with the House of Israel, because the House of Israel is uncircumcised in the heart . . . [I]t is through the Gospel . . . that men's hearts are circumcised."

Apostolics believe that only 144,000 Jews who have not, prior to the Second Coming of Christ, acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah will be saved in the end times. Though even for those who do not believe in this literal interpretation of the Bible—or for anyone who lives in Israel, or who cares about Israel, or whose security might be affected by a widespread conflagration in the Middle East, which is everyone—the scriptural prophecies of the Christian Zionists should be the least of their worries.

Instead, we should be worried about self-fulfilling prophecies. "Biblically," stated one South Carolina minister in support of the anti-Road Map billboard campaign, "there's always going to be a war."

Don Wagner, an evangelical, worries that in the Republican Party, people who believe this "are dominating the discourse now, in an election year." He calls the attempt to yoke Scripture to current events "a modern heresy, with cultish proportions.

"I mean, it's appalling," he rails on. "And it also shows how marginalized mainstream Christian thinking, and the majority of evangelical thought, have become."

It demonstrates, he says, "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."

The problem is not that George W. Bush is discussing policy with people who press right-wing solutions to achieve peace in the Middle East, or with devout Christians. It is that he is discussing policy with Christians who might not care about peace at all—at least until the rapture.

The Jewish pro-Israel lobby, in the interests of peace for those living in the present, might want to consider a disengagement.

Toady, you are just pitiful. If this is the anti-Israel representative, then we have nothing to worry about.

I didn't post the aobe comment. Apparently one of our resident zionist nutcases posted it.
I am the real SchtarkerYid.

Chaim Weizmann-A Brief Biography & Quotes (Zionist sleazebag)
1874-1952

Chaim Weizmann was Russia born Jew, and later he spent several years in Switzerland. In 1904 he settled in England, at the age of thirty, where he lectured in the University of Manchester chemistry department. During WW I, he was credited with developing a method of producing acetone from maize; which was needed for the production of artillery shells, and in 1917 he was credited with securing a promise from the British to build a "Jewish National Home" in Palestine, (better known as the Balfour Declaration).

Weizmann was one of the three Zionist leaders (along with Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion) most responsible for turning Zionism into reality. Soon after Theodor Herzl's death in 1904 (the father of Zionism), Weizmann was becoming a prominent figure in the Zionist movement, having acquired a reputation as a powerful public speaker, until the mid-1930s. As the Zionist movement center of gravity shifted from Europe to Palestine in the late 1930s-early 1940s, Weizmann played a secondary role behind David Ben-Gurion, who led the movement until 1962. Soon after the conclusion of the 1948, and the establishment of the "Jewish state" he became first Israeli President.

Weizmann was a very patient and savvy politician, who knew how to patiently lobby for Zionism in Europe, specially among the British whom he knew very well how to charm and court. He is credited with clarifying Herzl's vision of Zionism in the West and many Western Jewish communities. Weizmann's style of management was almost the exact opposite of Ben-Gurion's, who became militant, rigid, and uncompromising after the Nazis rose to power in Germany. As evidence of the Nazi atrocities was surfacing, Zionists and Jews in general advocated the creation of a "Jewish state" as soon as WWII ended, and the slogan "never again" became their motto. All of these factors pushed Weizmann to the background, and the Israeli Hawks dominated the Israeli political spectrum to the present day. It should be noted that Moshe Sharett was marginalized in a similar fashion as well.

Related Links

* More About Chain Weizmann and 'Transfer' by Rabbi Dr. Chaim Simons

Famous Quotes

In 1914, Chaim Weizmann attempted to lay down the foundations of realizing Zionism, and began by asserting that Palestine was empty and that its current inhabitants have no say in its fate. He stated:

"In its initial stage, Zionism was conceived by its pioneers as a movement wholly depending on mechanical factors: there is a country which happens to be called Palestine, a country without people, and, on the other hand, there exists the Jewish people, and it has no country. What else is necessary, then, than to fit the gem into the ring, to unite this people with this country? The owners of the country [the Ottoman Turks] must, there for, be persuaded and conceived that this marriage is advantageous, not only for the [Jewish] people and for the country, but also for themselves." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 6)

Note how Weizmann didn't claim that the country was empty (see the quote below), but he denied that there was a people which deserved the right of self-determination. The selective definition of "who are a people, and who are not" was crafted to serve Zionists' agenda for the following reasons:

* To lure European Jewry to immigrate to Palestine,
* To secure international legitimacy for the emerging "Jewish state", and
* To deceive the Yishuv, the Jews who were residing in Palestine before 1948, into believing that they were robbing no other people's rights.

Repeatedly, Zionists argued that Palestinians could be "transferred" to neighboring Arab states without infringing their right, and such "transfer" would be beneficial to both communities. Click here if you wish to read our response to this argument.

Just prior to the British conquest of Palestine, Chaim Weizmann wrote describing the Palestinian people as:

" the rocks of Judea, as obstacles that had to be cleared on a difficult path." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 17)

Note how Weizmann referred to the Palestinian people, as rocks. Usually Zionists use similar dehumanizing language to refer to the Palestinian people, such as rocks, primitive, naive, ignorant, savage, demographic problem, ticking time bombs, question, 5th column, obstacles, "transfer solution", " should be cleared", "should be broomed", etc.

Zionist leaders stressed the strategic advantages to Britain of a "Jewish state" in Palestine. In a letter written in 1914 to a sympathizer, Chaim Weizmann said:

"... should Palestine fall within the British sphere of influence, and should Britain encourage a Jewish settlement there, as a British dependency, we could have in 20 to 30 years a million Jews out there - perhaps more; they would ... form a very effective guard for the Suez Canal." (UN: The Origins And Evolution Of Palestine Problem, section II)

Another Weizmann letter of 1916 reads:

"... The British Cabinet is not only sympathetic toward the Palestinian aspirations of the Jews, but would like to see these aspirations realized ...

England ... would have in the Jews the best possible friends, who would be the best national interpreters of ideas in the eastern countries and would serve as a bridge between the two civilizations. That again is not a material argument, but certainly it ought to carry great weight with any politician who likes to look 50 years ahead." (UN: The Origins And Evolution Of Palestine Problem, section II)

Ironically, the disadvantages of establishing a "Jewish state" are never discussed. For example,

* What if Arabs and Muslims perceive the creation of a "Jewish state" as the 2nd Crusade? What is the impact of this perception on America's and England's national interests?
* What if England's and America's national interests run contrary to the "Jewish state's" national interests? Would Israel point its bayonets against the American and British peoples? It should be noted that Zionist bayonets in Palestine were pointed toward the British (who practically created the "Jewish state") during WWII until May 1948.

Soon after the arrival of Weizmann to Jerusalem in late 1918, he described the ultra-orthodox neighborhoods of the city to his wife as follows:

"There's nothing more humiliating than 'our' Jerusalem. Anything that could be done to desecrate and defile the sacred has been done. It is impossible to imagine so much falsehood, blasphemy, greed, so many lies. It's such an accursed city, there's nothing there, no creature comforts. . . [It] hasn't a single clean and comfortable apartment." (One Palestine Complete, p. 71)

In 1918 Chaim Weizmann denied the existence of an Arab nation in Palestine and portrayed them as ignorant and naive. He described Palestinians in a letter to a colleague of his:

"The poor ignorant fellah [Arabic for peasant] does not worry about politics, but when he is told repeatedly by people in whom he has confidence that his livelihood is in danger of being taken away from him by us, he becomes our mortal enemy. . . The Arab is primitive and believes what he is told." (One Palestine Complete, p. 109)

While the peace conference was convening at Versailles in early 1919, Weizmann was asked of his understanding of the "national home" referred to by Balfour Declaration, he answered:

"the country [Palestine] should be Jewish in the same way that France is French and Britain is British." (One Palestine Complete, p. 117)

Similarly, Weizmann pronounced the same formula in an address to the English Zionist Federation on September 19, 1919:

"By a Jewish National Home I mean the creation of such conditions that as the country is developed we can pour in a considerable number of immigrants, and finally establish such a society in Palestine that Palestine shall be as Jewish as England is English or America American." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 41)

Even in the early 1920s, the Zionists goals were not popular among many Jewish comminutes around the world. However, the Zionist Organization, with Weizmann's leadership, was a able to erect a powerful lobbying facade in England and the United States as if they were speaking on behalf of all Jews, and in that regard Chaim Weizmann stated:

"The Balfour Declaration of 1917 was built on air ... every day and every hour of these last 10 years, when opening the newspapers, I thought: Whence will the next blow come? I trembled lest the British Government would call me and ask: 'Tell us, what is this Zionist Organization? Where are they, your Zionists?' ... The Jews, they knew, were against us [the Zionists]; we stood alone on a little island, a tiny group of Jews with a foreign past." (UN: The Origins And Evolution Of Palestine Problem, section V)

On the other hand, the holocaust propelled the Zionist Organization, the Jewish Agency, and later the "Jewish state" to become the representative of Jewish interests among most Jews, especially in the United States. For example, the Jewish Agency and the "Jewish state" took the leading role in securing compensation for German atrocities and for Swiss' looting of Jewish artwork.

In the early 1920s, Ben-Gurion asked Chaim Weizmann why he had accepted the promise of a "national home" in Palestine (as referred to by Balfour Declaration) rather than holding out for a state, Weizmann responded the he did not demand a state because he would not have gotten one. For him the choice of "national home" was a "tactical question". Weizmann believed in cautious, gradual action, in a doctrine of stages. (One Palestine Complete, p. 101)

Weizmann argued for increased Jewish immigration to Palestine because they were unwanted all over the world. He stated in 1930:

"while they [European Jews] are seeking an outlet, every door of those countries into which the Jews emigrated in the past is gradually being closed before them: America, South Africa, Canada, Mexico, each used to be a country of immigration; they are closed now." (Israel: A History, p. 65)

Similarly, at the annual dinner of the Anglo-American Palestine Committee, Weizmann declared that Palestine must be the only place for settlement for Jewish refugees. He stated on May 25, 1942,:

"Palestine alone could absorb and provide for the homeless and the stateless Jews uprooted by the war. It is canalized all the sympathy of the world for the martyrdom of the Jews that the Zionists reject all schemes to resettle these victims elsewhere-- in Germany, or Poland, or in sparsely populated regions such as Madagascar." It was Hitler who, in 1940, had first suggested Madagascar as a place where all the Jews of Europe might be sent, before the policy turned to physical extermination. (Israel: A History, p. 113)

It's not only that this was lie, it was also criminal against Jews since Zionists' main objective was to channel all fleeing European Jewish citizen to Palestine. This was was done for one and only one purpose: to turn Palestinian into a Jewish state where Jews would constitute a majority. Ben-Gurion stated similar statements in 1938.

By no mean we imply that Zionists did not care about European Jewish citizens, however, achieving Zionists' main goal was paramount, and securing a Jewish majority in Palestine, as Moshe Sharett called it in 1948, was the "crowing achievement". As a result, Zionists' main objective had blinded them from protecting their European Jewish brothers. This serious and divisive question is silently being debated in many Jewish communities around the world.

Chaim Weizmann attempted on more than one occasion to extend Zionist colonization outside the borders of British Mandated Palestine. For example, in 1934 Weizmann tried to interest the French Mandate authorities in his settlement plans in Syria and Lebanon. This plan was originally submitted by the World Zionist Organization in the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 which included Western Jordan, Southern Syria including the Golan Heights, and Southern Lebanon south of the Litani River, click here for a map illustration. Similar ideas were also proposed by Ben-Gurion and Moshe Dayan. (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 47)

In a letter Chaim Weizmann sent to the Palestine-British high Commissioner while the Peel Commission was convening in 1937:

"We shall spread in the whole country in the course of time ..... this is only an arrangement for the next 25 to 30 years." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 62)

Chaim Weizmann wrote in a letter dated April 28, 1939 to the American Zionist leader Solomon Goldman about the possibility of acquisition of a large tract of land belonging to the Palestinian Arab Druze in the Galilee and eastern Carmel:

"The realization of this project would mean the emigration of 10,000 [Palestinian] Arabs [to Jabal al-Druze in Syria], the acquisition of 300,000 dunums. . . . It would also create a significant precedent if 10,000 [Palestinian] Arabs were to emigrate peacefully of their own volition, which no doubt would be followed by others." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 167)

Ironically, what actually happened during the 1948 war was almost the complete opposite. The Palestinian Druze Arabs were the ones who were permitted to stay (among other minorities as some Shi'ites Muslims and Maronite Christians), especially in and around the Haifa and al-Carmel area.

On July 8, 1947, Weizmann described how the average stateless Jew felt like to UNSCOP (UN Special Committee On Palestine) as follows:

"We ask today: 'What are the Poles? What are the French? What are the Swiss?' When that is asked, everyone points to a country, to certain institution, to parliamentary institution, and the man in the street will know exactly what it is. He has a passport.

If you ask what is a Jew is -- well, he is a man who has to offer a long explanation for his existence, and any person who has to offer an explanation as to what he is, is always suspect--- and from suspicion there is only one step to hatred or contempt." (Israel: A History, p. 147)

This explanation eloquently articulates how the average dispossessed, ethnically cleansed, and occupied Palestinian feels.

Similarly, he continued to explain "Why Palestine?" should be the only place where Jews should establish their political independence:

"Why not Kamchatka, Alaska, Mexico, or Texas? There are great many empty countries. Why should the Jews choose a country which has a population that does not want to receive them in a particular friendly way; a small country; a country which has been neglected and derelict for centuries? [click here for rebuttal to this myth] It seems unusual on the part of a practical and shrewd people like the Jews to sink their effort, their sweat, and blood, their substance, into the sands, rocks, and marches of Palestine.

Well, I could, if I wished to be facetious, say it was not our responsibility -- not the responsibility of the Jews who sit here -- it was the responsibility of Moses, who acted from divine inspiration. He might have brought us to the United States, and instead of the Jordan might have had the Mississippi. It would have been an easier task. But he chose to stop here. We are an ancient people with old history, and you cannot deny your history and begin fresh." (Israel: A History, p. 147-148)

It is worth noting that Weizmann's argument is classic among Zionist leaders to gain international support and sympathy for Israel and the Zionist movement. Similarly, when Ben Gurion was interviewed by the British Peel Commission in 1937, he also used the Bible as a "Mandate" or a real estate deed for the "Jewish people". (One Palestine Complete, p. 401)

What baffles many Palestinians and Muslims is: Why the Bible not used to "redeem" the "Promised Land" during the Crusade's Genocide between the 11th-13th century?

Briefly, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has little to do with religion, and a lot to do with Europe's racism towards its Jewish citizens and Palestinian dispossession by the Israelis. On both sides of the conflict, God is being used to distract and confuse the conflict to achieve political gains. The conflict would have been at the same level of intensity even if both warring parties had been Jewish, Christians, or even Muslims.

By war's end in 1949, Chaim Weizmann was surprised by a sudden "miracle": Palestinians are almost out of "Eretz Yisrael", how did that happen? As if the the Haganah, the Irgun, and the Stern terror gangs were angels who played no role in this sudden and swift so called "miracle". He described the EXODUS of the Palestinian people from their homes, farms, and businesses as follows:

" a miraculous CLEARING of the land: the miraculous simplification of Israel's task." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 175 & Simha Flapan, p. 84)

Note the racist use of the term "simplification" as if the Palestinian people are question or a mathematical conjecture. Click here if you wish to learn more how the "miraculous clearing" took place based on declassified Israeli and Zionists archives. The question that is begged here is:

Was it the Almighty's miracle or not?

"Anti-zionism" is racist in that it seeks to deny the Jewish people alone, "peoplehhood."

The old fake quote game AGAIN. Whenthey persist in lying, it means there is no support for their position in reality.

The Indybay editor has got to be the stupidest "anti-Zionist" to quote under bar-Kochba's nym. Somehow this nutcase believes the imagined offense to "Zionists" he's metting out by doing so outweighs the transparent idiocy of forging bar-Kochba''s name to them.

...As A First Resort!

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The Arabs are not denied 'national rights' because there is not, and never has been, a sovereign nation known as "Palestine." The primary goal of Arab- "Palestinian" terrorism is not to achieve a military or even a political end. The goal is simply to kill Jews indiscriminately as an end in and of itself. Let's call it what it really is... a blood lust! This is what Arafat has tolerated, encouraged and practiced for his entire career.


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Many people have been persuaded to believe that the various Arab-Palestinian terrorist organizations were daring guerrilla fighters springing out of the Arab population within "Palestine," determined to regain their lost homeland from the cruel Israeli occupier. They were pictured as modern day Fidel Castros of Cuba, Che Guevaras in the Bolivian jungle, Mao Tse-Tungs of China or even American Revolutionaries! This is the type of characterizations that capture the imaginations of Europeans and Americans. But it is, in fact, a perversion of reality.


Is a terrorist someone who hates peace and just kills for the thrill of it? In the case of the Arab Palestinian terrorist, that could be. For nearly ALL of them, THAT'S the ONLY job they've ever held and they take this job very seriously! Their goal? By murdering and terrorizing Jews indiscriminately, they hope to drive ALL Jews from Israel!



The seeds of the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) were first sown in 1956 by an EGYPTIAN, Ahmed Shukairy. He was the guiding light of this terror group and is remembered today as the one who coined the organization's famous slogan about "driving the Jews into the sea." Yasser Arafat took control of the PLO in 1964.

Some "Palestinian HE was for he was born in Cairo, Egypt! Arafat is also a not-too-distant relative of that convicted Nazi war criminal, Haj Amin El Husseini, the so-called "Grand Mufti" of Jerusalem. This was Arafat's weak connection to "Palestine!" FACT: The birth of this "Palestinian" nationalistic organization was unnatural in that it was conceived and nurtured from outside "Palestine."

Besides being committed to terrorist attacks against innocent Israeli citizens, the PLO was the most important member of the international terrorist network. It provided training, money, intelligence and weaponry for terrorist movements in Ireland, Spain, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Africa, Asia and Latin America! The PLO left behind a trail of blood and an atmosphere poisoned with racist hatred over all corners of the world. In any conceivable trouble spot on Earth, they were always there, fanning the fires of death and destruction. And while at it, the PLO, together with their Arab allies, have been methodically and diligently spreading the virus of anti-Semitism under the guise of anti-Zionism.


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The PLO was actually an umbrella organization for various other factions:

1. Fatah, the largest, was founded in 1956 by a group of young Gazans. It was, and STILL IS, the military arm of the P.L.O. Among the young terrorists was Yasser Arafat. By 1968 Arafat was al Fatah's leader. Among the offshoots of Fatah was the infamous Black September which massacred the Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics. Rent the video, One Day in September, for stunning news footage of this horrendous brutality.

2. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) was the second largest of the commando groups. It was founded in 1967 by George Habash. The P.F.L.P. carried out some spectacular skyjackings in the 1970. But 30+ years does not diminish their thirst for Jewish blood. In October or 2001, several of their operatives murdered the Israeli Government Minister Rechavam "Ghandi" Ze´evi.

3. The Popular Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine split from the P.F.L.P. which it accused of not being militant enough. This group carried out the terrorist raid on Ma'alot in May of 1974 in which 21 young Israeli school children were murdered.

4. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command was another splinter group of the P.F.L.P. They were responsible for the 1974 incursion into Northern Israel in which 16 residents of Kiryat Shemona were murdered.

5. Al Saiqa was formed by Syria in 1967 and was tightly controlled by Syrian intelligence. Most of its terror participants were Arab-Palestinian refugees who fled to Syria during the 1948 and 1967 Arab-Israel wars.

6. The Arab Liberation Front, a minor player in the terrorism against Israel.

These were the original PLO terrorist splinter groups. The role they play today is rather insignificant compared to the new terrorists on the block... Islamic Jihad, al Aqsa Brigade, Hizb'Allah, Hamas, Tanzim and countless other ARAB terror squads that seem to spring up every week! But one face has remained a constant over the last 40+ years and that is the ugly face of Yasser Arafat... Godfather of Arab-Palestinian Terrorism. He may have renamed his PLO the PA (Palestinian Authority) and he may have been given a Nobel Peace Prize (the first one ever given to a certified mass murderer!) but beneath his facial stubble is the same old butcher of Jews. It must also be pointed out that most of the early Arab-Palestinian terrorist groups were formed BEFORE the 1967 Arab-Israel War... a defensive war against the combined armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan resulting in the so-called Israeli "occupation" of the "West Bank" (from Jordan), Gaza Strip (from Egypt) and the Golan Heights (from Syria). So unless it makes sense that the PLO and its various splinter terror groups were originally formed to get back territories the Arabs already controlled, then obviously, the "occupied land" was then, as it remains today... Israel itself!

The various Arab terrorist groups were then, and are still now, not freedom fighters...
They are gun-crazed Arabians itching to kill Jews!


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Israel and the PLO are not equal in more ways than power. Israel teaches their people that they have to live with the Arab "Palestinians" and to accept them; whereas the PLO teaches their people from the cradle to the grave to hate the Jews and to drive them into the sea. During every crisis, Israel used the media to call for Israeli restraint and moderation. The PLO, on the other hand, urged violence and more violence. The PLO orchestrated the violence whereas Israel only responded to that violence. Israel keeps their children at home to protect them, the Palestinians send them out into the street preferring martyrdom to safety. Israel made many compromises for peace, the PLO made none. Israel doesn't destroy religious sites, the Palestinians did when they occupied Jerusalem and they are at it again. Israel has a democracy whereas the PLO is authoritarian. Israel has a free press whereas the PLO controls the press. The PLO alone could stop the violence when they want to, but Israel can only defend against it. Israel absorbed all the Jewish refugees from the Second World War and from the Arab lands from which they were expelled in 1948. The Arabs kept their refugees in camps for fifty years. And on and on and on it goes. Same old, same old.


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LONG BEFORE ARAFAT, THERE WAS HEBRON...

The war against the Jews of "Palestine" began long before Yasser Arafat came of killing age and certainly NOT just after he became the acknowledged leader of the PLO. Spontaneous massacres of Palestine's Jews was the pastime of packs of roaming Palestinian Arabs which could be ignited merely by the urging of the local religious leaders. These brutal attacks occurred throughout pre-state Israel culminating most notably during the Jerusalem Riots(1929, 1936-9). One such example occurred in Hebron (1929) where hundreds of men, women and children were hacked to death by frenzied packs of wild Arabs.

The Jewish connection with Hebron goes back to Abraham and there has been an Israelite/Jewish community there since Joshua... long before it was King David's first capital. Hebron, the old capital of Judea, is the cradle of the Jewish nation. In 1929, Arab rioters with the passive consent of the British -- killed or drove out virtually the entire Jewish community. There were no Jews patrolling the "West Bank then. There were no such things as "occupied Arab lands of 1967." There was not even a Jewish State in existence! In fact, there was nothing that the Jews did to contributed to the Arab hatred except one thing... they existed!

The Jewish presence in Hebron was completely destroyed but their property remained, awaiting their return. The Arabs transformed the Jewish neighborhood into a garbage dump and stockyard for animals. The ancient Jewish cemetery was turned into a vegetable patch. Jewish property was destroyed, ravaged and plundered, but the truth remained and the memory of the past survived. It is therefore logical to expect that when the Jewish people returned to Hebron in 1967, it was their G-d given moral entitlement to return to their city, to reclaim and recover their property, to prevent terror from overcoming a peace-loving Jewish community.


Above left, Joseph Hayyim Brenner, alive and well. Above right, Joseph Hayyim Brenner, a victim of Arab-Jewish "co-existence" in Jaffa ... stabbed to death during these riots presumably because of the land Israel would be forced to occupy sixty-six years later!

Arab riots and the ensuing massacres continued in 1929 and again in 1936-1939. To get some idea what an Arab massacre looks like, view the video of the recent Ramallah Massacres of those two Israeli reservists who were beaten, knifed, disemboweled, thrown out the Palestinian police station window, dragged through the street and finally burned.

For more information on the 1929 Hebron Riots
and its Jewish victims please click HERE and HERE


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YASSER ARAFAT HAS SO MUCH BLOOD ON HIS HANDS
That He Makes Osama Bin Laden
Look like a Punk!

By 1968, Yasser Arafat took control over Fatah. No one else has since had a knife sharp enough carve his way up to the top! His actual name is Abd al-Rahman abd al-Rauf Arafat al-Qud al-Husseini. He was born in Cairo, Egypt 1929 [Left Photo] but in 1939 came to "Palestine" at the age of ten. Majid Halaby was Arafat's school teacher in Gaza and introduced little Rahman to the pleasures of sodomy. Halaby named the chubby, effeminate little fellow, "Yasir" after Yasir al-Bira who had previously introduced him [Halaby] to homosexuality! The adopted the name Yasir means 'easy-going' and Abu Amar was named after a companion of the Prophet Muhammad. He shortened it to obscure his kinship with the notorious Nazi and ex-Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini.... the very same Moslem Religious leader who incited the massacres of Jews in the 1920s and 30s and later collaborated with Adolph Hitler! [Photo of Arafat. He's the fellow with purple lips and pubic hair on his face]

From his earliest days, Arafat has indulged in exaggeration and the weaving of myths about his life, insisting, for example, that he was born in Jerusalem even though his birth, in 1929, is clearly recorded in Egypt. He even speaks Arabic with a decidedly Egyptian accent. Perhaps he just forgot where he was born! (Maybe it was because he was so young at the time!) His parents were NOT "refugees" or "exiles." They had simply moved to Egypt in the 1920s … more than twenty years BEFORE the State of Israel came into existence! So if Yasser Arafat wants to fix blame where it belongs, he should be cursing on his parents’ graves for making the choice to leave Palestine and should stop blaming the Jews of Palestine who chose to stay and create a Jewish State!

One more thing... Arafat is a butcher of Jews. He is the biggest post-Hitler Jew-killer! This little savage is a certified criminal psychopath... a modern day "Creature from the Black Lagoon!"


Arafat is Gay (click this audio-video link)
More on Arafat's Homosexuality (click this WorldNewDaily Article)

"Not that there's anything wrong with that!" Jerry Seinfeld

He is also a certified child molester. Have you heard about the Romanian pedophilic orgies with young boys provided him by his host Caucescu and described in detail in the book, "Red Horizons," by Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa, the former head of Romanian intelligence. No wonder his wife Suha keeps Arafat's daughter stowed away from him in Paris!

Arafat is NOT the Prince of Peace as some would have us believe. Does anyone seriously believe that Yasser Arafat opposes the murder of Jews? The PLO and the PA, (Palestinian Authority...their new sanitized name since the 1993 so-call Oslo "peace" negotiations began) were created SOLELY to murder, remove or otherwise separate the Jewish people from the Land of Israel. In return, the Jewish people have no obligation whatsoever to provide this Arab Nazi with anything, much less another Arab Terrorist State!

One might also say, "But Arafat says he and his PLO/PA want peace." Well, perhaps they do. But their idea of "peace" is a Middle East WITHOUT a Jewish Nation. Be assured that what they say in English to the Western press is far different than what they say in Arabic to the Muslim on the street!

In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. These words could have come right from Arafat's mouth too!

Sure Arafat was delighted to shake the hands of so many stupid leaders, both Israeli AND American. Sure he loved to be treated as some foreign dignitary in the White House. And sure he was probably amazed to be given a Nobel "Peace" Prize soaked in Jewish blood. But remember this... with one phone call he could put the Muslim religious leaders on notice and within an hour every mosque loudspeaker would be turned on to full volume with the familiar words echoing forth, "Allah hu achbar; Itback el Yahud!" (God is Great; Slaughter the Jews!).

"Land for Peace?" How should this be described?
How about "Absurd?
How about "INSANE!"

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For more on Arafat Click HERE

For the Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini / Yasser Arafat Blood Connection
Click HERE


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DOES YASSER ARAFAT REALLY REPRESENT THE "PALESTINIAN PEOPLE?"


Yasser Arafat: "I am willing to sacrifice 70 martyrs to kill one Israeli!"

As part of the 1993 Oslo "Peace" Accord agreement, Israel agreed to arm Arafat's "police force" with thousands of weapons to reign in the "extremist" Arabs. Are these words an example how Arafat and the Palestinian Authority reign in Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hamas and the many other Arab-Palestinian butchers of Jews?

The average Arab strives to liquidate Israel. While it is true that there may exist more "pragmatic" and "moderate" Arabs who may make a tactical decision to lay down their arms today, this would be done ONLY to put themselves in a better position to destroy Israel tomorrow.

Israel will not win the war until she understands that Arafat and others like him are only a reflection of the "Palestinian" street. This may be a painful reality, yet it is the truth! The Arab "Palestinian" people have declared war on the Jewish people. They did this on the very day Israel declared her statehood on May 14, 1948. They must now be removed from any position where they could be of harm to Israel. Hostile Arabs must be removed from ALL of Israel if Israel wishes to regain internal security.

Does Yasser Arafat represent the Arab Palestinians? In a word, yes. But so do the suicide bombers of Hamas, Hizb'Allah, Islamic Jihad, FATAH, PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine),Tanzim, Force 5, al-Aqsa Brigade and all the other Palestinian "liberation movements" who wish to "cleanse" the land of Jews! In effect, the ENTIRE Arab-Palestinian population is one giant incubator for terrorism and thus share a collective guilt.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Moshe Smilansky-A Brief Biography & Quotes

eMail to a friend

Posted on OCTOBER-23-2001
BASED On Declassified Israeli Documents & Personal Diaries

Moshe Smilansky, a Zionist writer and Labor leader who emigrated to Palestine in 1890:

"Let us not be familiar with the Arab fellahin [peasants] lest our children adopt their ways and learn from their ugly deeds. Let all those who are loyal to the Torah avoid ugliness and that which resembles it and keep their distance from the fellahin and their base attributes." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7)

Moshe Smilansky wrote in Hapoel Hatzair in the spring edition of 1908:

"Either the Land of Israel of Israel belongs in the national sense to those Arabs who settled there in recent years [before 1908], and then we have no place there and we must say explicitly: The land of our fathers is lost to us. [Or] if the land of Israel belongs to us, the the Jewish people, then our national interests come before all else. . . . it is not possible for one country to serve as the homeland of two peoples." (Righteous Victims, p. 58)

Note that even when the Zionist presence in Palestine was negligible in 1908, they still looked at the Palestinian people as " recent immigrants". Ironically, many Zionists still propagate this myth to this date.

Zionist leader Moshe Smilansky said in 1914:

"We must not forget that we are dealing here with a semi-savage people, which has extremely primitive concepts. And this is his nature: If he senses in you power- he will submit and will hide his hatred for you. And if he senses weakness- he will dominate you .... Moreover ... owing to the many tourists and urban Christians, there developed among the Arabs base values which are not common other primitive people ... to lie, to cheat, to harbor grave [unfounded] suspicions and to tell tales.... and a hidden hatred for the Jews. These Semites- they are anti-Semites." (Righteous Victims, p. 43)

Moshe Smilansky described the looting which GRIPPED the "Jewish state" citizens who covered all spectrum of the Israel society during the 1948 war:

"The urge to grab has seized everyone, Individuals, groups and communities, men, women and children, all fell on the spoils. Doors, windows, lintels, bricks, roof-tiles, floor-tiles, junk and machine parts. ..." He could have also added to the list toilet bowls, sinks, faucets and light bulbs. (1949, The First Israelis, p. 70)

The old Fake quote game, again. These old Comintern made up quotes are nonsense. If not, post a legit source.

I guess the zionist filth are pretty manaical.

Thanks for proving the point. They wouldn't have to false post if they weren't using the cover of "anti-zionism"as protective cover for old fashioned Jew hatred. .

Toady: "I guess the zionist filth are pretty manaical."

Grow up, Toady. Forgery is bad.

@%<

While you hide behind your keyboard, making threats and taking yourself oh-so-seriously (LOL!) and telling everyone what a big, strong manly thing you are, and then steaking out indybay's mtng site you have proven the insanity of one fanatical zionist troll beyond a shadow of a doubt...

It looks like Toady's mother left the computer on again.

You push them a bit too hard, they both shatter...
TW into his violent, misogynist anti-semitic ravings.
Toady in his whining little forgeries.

Not a lot of raw material to work with , here.

Notice that they fail to call eachother on spamming, trolling, gatekeeping and threats.......

And I forgot to mention Yid, if you push him far enough, he will just make threats and talk about how manly he is!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Overlook their own behavior (trolling, spamming, threats, attacks, ect.) 'cqause then it's different, right?
I guess when you are the chosen ones, you can do anything, huh?

except that never happened. All the false posting, treyfeh porn, etc is all identifiable as beginning with toady's arrival.

Overlook their own behavior (trolling, spamming, threats, attacks, ect.) 'cause then it's different, right?
I guess when you are the chosen ones, you can do anything, huh?

As we know, the zionist fantasy (guised in rhetoric of 'self-determination') is based on the religious idea that God somehow gives the Jewish people divine rights to the land--and to quote your co-troll (autowhiner/aka Scapegoated Jew, et al) the Jews are supposed to be an example for all the others....
This is supremacy at its best. Instead of always relying on the dimwitted default of "antisemtism", try thinking gehrig. All the trolling is turning you into a real dunce.

I wonder if the Israeli pilots who strafed Palestinians in 1948 saw the bitter irony in the fact that they were flying World War II German fighter planes. The Luftwaffe as predecessor to the IDF; I love it.

They were using re-chambered mousers the Wermach had used.
Why not the Luftwafa as well? Scapegoated Jew /Lord Locksly seems to have a problem with the Zionists and Nazi connections.

>there simply werent any Me-109's left for Israel or anybody else to fly.....

http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/bf109/Bf109Story.htm

(snip)

After the war production of the 109, under various guises, continued. The Czechoslovaks found themselves with a German factory for producing the 109 left on their soil, they also had another for the production of Junkers engines. To get their aircraft industry going they continued 109 production with the Jumo 211 engine. The annular radiator of the Jumo gives it the appearance of a radial engine. In this form, called the Avia S199, the aircraft equipped units of the Czech Air Force. The newly independent state of Israel needed aircraft to defend itself against the Arabs. At this time the Soviet Union and its satellite states looked favourably on Israel, thinking it could extend its interests in the middle east it allowed numbers of the Avia S199s to be smuggled into Israel, despite an arms embargo.

(snip)

* * * * *

>it was obsolete by 1944 anyway....having been essentially superseded by the Focke-Wulfe 190


This is technically true, but they nevertheless remained in use for decades:

http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/bf109/Bf109Story.htm

(snip)

Spain was where the Bf109 had first seen combat and Spain continued to take delivery of 109s during the War. After Germany's defeat the Spanish continued to assemble 109s bought from Germany. They fitted their own Hispano Suiza engines to these aircraft, but performance was unsatisfactory, and British Merlin engines were fitted instead. Known as the Hispano HA 1112, these aircraft were in service until as late as 1967.

(snip)

.......everybody who doesn't bend the knee to Karl Marx is 'evil'......you can equivocate all you want to....which is what you have to do now to distract attention from the fact the the IAF wasn't trying to emulate the Luftwaffe like Meyer the Liar inferred.....everybody is a 'Nazi' except you and your little lefty friends,right?...well you've really had to twist things to make the case that the IAF was emulating the Luftwaffe, and everybody is "Hitler' who doesn't agree with you,so have at it

>you've really had to twist things to make the case that the IAF was emulating the Luftwaffe,


They flew Messerschmidt clones, built by Nazi collaborators, in support of an militaristic, expansionist, ethnic based state. If you don't want to call "emulation," then what is it.



> everybody is a 'Nazi' except you and your little lefty friends,right?

That's a straw man. I never said any such thing. But Eichmann was a Nazi and so was Rauff. These are indisputable facts, as is their undeniable collaboration with Zionists.


>Or if it's biplanes with poison gas ( Churchill favored this concept )

The Brits have once more invaded Iraq. Their excuses this time included Saddam Hussein allegedly gassed some Kurds at Halabja.

But before Saddam was even born, the Brits had gassed Kurds and Arabs, men, women and children alike.


http://www.sundayobserver.lk/2003/04/27/fea30.html

(snip)

Brutality of the British

Britain merged the provinces Baghdad, Basra and Mosul into a new entity, the state of Iraq, inhabited by three different groups of people: Shias, Sunnis and Kurds. Problems appeared as the British administration did not give administrative posts to the local people. Soon imperial order penetrated at all levels. Under the British rule the Iraqis were subjected to pay more taxes than to the Ottomans. They armed themselves and revolted against the British rulers in 1920.

To crush the rebellion Churchill, at that time the Secretary of State for War, introduced new tactics - bombing as means of shock and awe. He encouraged the usage of mustard gas stating: "I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas, I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes".

He argued that gas fired from ground-based guns or dropped from aircraft, would cause only discomfort or illness but not death. Others protested saying gas would permanently damage eyesight and kill sickly persons and children who are most vulnerable to such a situation. Churchill remained unimpressed arguing that the usage of gas is a "scientific expedient" and it "should not be prevented by the prejudices of those who do not think clearly".

The army men followed their master's policy to the extreme limits. Whole villages were bombed. There was wholesale slaughter. Men, women and children fleeing from villages had been machine gunned. The British Royal Air Force routinely bombed and even used poison gas against the Kurds and Shia tribes.

Wing Commander J. A. Chamber: "The attack with bombs and machine guns must be relentless and unremitting and carried out continuously by day and night on houses, inhabitants, crops and cattle."

Geoff Simons in his book "Iraq From Sumer to Saddam" writes: "Iraq and Kurdistan were useful laboratories for new weapons devices specially developed by the Air Ministry for use against tribal villages. The ministry drew up a list of possible weapons: Phosphorus bombs, rockets, metal crowsfeet to maim livestock, man-killing shrapnel, liquid fire, delay action bombs... Many of these weapons were first used in Kurdistan".

The cruellest was Arthur Harris, known as bomber Harris due to his bombing of Dresden in World War II, who said: "Arabs and Kurds now know what real bombing means, in casualties and damage: they know that within 45 minutes full-sized villages can be wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or wounded". This notorious man is now called "Sir Arthur Harris" and a monument stands in the centre of London.

(snip)

>they weren't Nazi 'collaborators'

Some were and some weren't. The ones who built arms for the Nazi war machine were.


>what Britain did in Iraq is irrelevant to Israel defending itself against Arab states hell bent on its destruction

Au contrair. In both cases, colonialist invaders attack the indigenous people of the Middle East. In both cases, the struggle against them continues.


>trying to say the IAF was the Luftwaffe in drag

Zionists are Nazis in drag. The only difference between Nazis and Zionists is that Nazis like Aryans, while Zionists like Jews. Everything else is the same.

Both Nazism and Zionism are militaristic, expansionist, aggressive, oppressive ethnic based nationalism, whose central philosophy is "Blud und Boden." They even share a "drive to the east." They are both doomed.

It is unclear whether the German fighters were built by the Czechs after the war or whether these were planes that had been grounded before the War ended because of minor damage, lack of fuel, or airstrips overun by the Red Army. What the hell difference does it make? They were the primary German fighter during World War II, and there is a very good chance that they were manufactured by Czech slave laborers during the war. Even you must see the dark irony of zionists flying these planes in a vicious mission to drive Arabs out of their homes so that their land could be stolen.
The fact that the plance were manufactured outside of Germany (if they actually were) means nothing. It may be that some of the gas chambers used in the death camps to kill Jews were manufactured in Poland. If the zionists had decided to do a "final solution" on recalcitrant Palestinians who refused to leave, would it have been ok as long as the death machinery had not been made in Germany?
Some of the arms used by the zionists in 1948 were supplied by Las Vegas organized crime big shots. Does that bother you? I would guess that it does not.

>It is unclear whether the German fighters were built by the Czechs after the war or whether these were planes that had been grounded before the War ended because of minor damage,


They were built after the war from left over parts, by guys who had armed the nazi war machine, and without whom, Hitler could not have waged war. The designs were Nazi designs. The blueprints were Nazi blueprints.

But what makes the IAF the spiritual heir to the Luftwaffe is not their equipment, but their racist ideology. Zionists differ from Nazis only in the ethnic group they favor. Everything else is the same. A racist is a racist is a racist. Whether they are Jews or Aryans, Croats or Serbs, Hutus or Tutsis, or whatever, is completely and totally irrelevant. Anyone who favors one ethnic group over all others is a racist. Period.

Cowardice is no excuse.

...when your family is hostage in the bargain....

....how many of the million or so Arabs who live in Israel and mind their own business and obey the law and arent whackjob splodeydopes think of themselves as 'hostages' in Israel...especially since they all know they are free to leave at any time and clearly choose not to so so....if it were as bad as the lefties want us to believe, they would have run for the border years ago

....how many of the million or so Arabs who live in Israel and mind their own business and obey the law and arent whackjob splodeydopes think of themselves as 'hostages' in Israel...especially since they all know they are free to leave at any time and clearly choose not to so so....if it were as bad as the lefties want us to believe, they would have run for the border years ago

"if it were as bad as the lefties want us to believe, they would have run for the border years ago"
[ Actually they are different from you. They have the strength of love for their land and culture where as you are driven by greed, fear, hate and dogma.]
"whackjob splodeydopes"
If the above piece of noise is a method of proving anything, then I rest my case.

Oh and one more thing about getting the Arabs ( note the all encompassing labile,here folks, meaning the natives, some of which are Christian ) to 'behave'.
What incredible crust.

-governing gun licensing is strictly enforced-
But all the israeli 'citizens' seem to have lots of fire power. Like when they can walk into a Mosque and kill a bunch of unarmed praying Muslims then get a stone commemoration as if he was a hero instead of a hate driven psychopath like a few as yet un mentioned individuals, cause the mob killed him.
Oh. I see what you meant.
Aside from the frothing and weird inversions of history, statistics and repeated UN resolutions directed at thew criminal israeli state.
I understand your point.
You are wrong.

so many weasel words and insults. I must be doing something irritating and this is well.
Good for me.
There is one thing that is particularly irritating to me and that is the total unrepentant denial the true * Apologetic* zionist pundit for Quotations from israel's Psychopathic nazi trained and equipped death squads, have to deal with and then there's the inevitable conclusion I guess, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
:>)

your stock of bullsh*t in staged photo and other sensational, w/o evidence chain or links to the authenticity of these items, psyops will be viewed as crap.

"But all the israeli 'citizens' seem to have lots of fire power. "

The preference for what *seems* true is the excuse for the feebleminded bigot to avoid confronting uncomfortable truths.

"Like when they can walk into a Mosque and kill a bunch of unarmed praying Muslims then get a stone commemoration as if he was a hero instead of a hate driven psychopath like a few as yet un mentioned individuals, cause the mob killed him."

Taking an exceptional individual and an exceptional group of fanatics consecrating his memory and generalizing then to an entire nation is another hallmark act of bigots. Never would you do the same to Arabs or Muslims in general. You're a sorry excuse for a person and even for a headcase.

"Aside from the frothing and weird inversions of history, statistics and repeated UN resolutions directed at thew criminal israeli state."

All of which are biased racistly lopsided resolutions formulated by the criminal arch-racist members of the Arab League moulded in the "Just Us" mindset, and their willing Western dupes come out in force, rain sleet or snow as in this outlet, to apologize and glorify this repetative institutional international racism. Hizbullah and most Palinazi gunmen would slit your throat without blinking if they could reach your arch-leftist Jew hating a**.

"You are wrong."

You offer no proof, as always. You always proffer BS though.

laughing too hard....

Heh heh.
Did my post:

hostages
by Sheepdog Saturday, Apr. 28, 2007 at 7:13 PM

Are you kidding?
Come on. The israeli state has so many hostages it's silly. In their dungeons and ghettoes.
The remaining prisoners in Palestine are the Palestinians you wall and wire in as you rant about the supposed security this offers... to the 1st class 'citizens' of israel when tearing the walls down and offering reparations and following UN resolutions etc. etc...would pour oil over a troubled sea. Everyone in equality, free to travel and live in peace.
All your problems would be solved.
But manufactured paranoid ideology limits this rational solution.
Of course anyone with critical thinking skills would see this.
---
upset you?
apparently it did. And you come up with the previous comments ( please don't hide it ) to invert a rational suggestion with an implausible and twisted reality?

That's satire.
Like the movie, The Producers.

For some reason, somebody doesn't want you to see why most Palestinians' "fear of their Jewish neighbors" is not irrational.

Why, we can only imagine. Perhaps it is because the video evidence is so abundantly clear. Zionist settlers behave in an extremely aggressive and threatening manner. They also have a long history of stealing land and massacring anyone who resists.

For example:

http://www.deiryassin.org/shimontzabar.html

If these people were your neighbors, you would be afraid, too.

If it were so terrible in Israel for Arab Israelis, they would leave. It would take minimal effort to immigrate to any of the 22 Muslim states nearby. yet they chose to stay in Israel.
Why?
Why have 1 1/2 million Arab Israelis chosen to remain in Israel?
Any ideas?

"If it were so terrible in Israel for Arab Israelis, they would leave. It would take minimal effort to immigrate to any of the 22 Muslim states nearby. yet they chose to stay in Israel.
Why? "

You must be serious.
What part of love for your community, people and their heritage lasting sometimes, centuries do you not understand?

There are refugees driven out during the 1948 pogrom that still have the keys to the homes they are denied return to. They loved that land with its meager water supply which they dealt with using passive well and subterranean systems built over to supply the world famous citrus and olive harvests.
It was a sustainable village culture, and unfortunately not a well armed one.

This cracks me up.

'Arab Israelis'. [Everyone in the world who isn't a zionist isn't an anti-Semite, self-hating Jew or Arab. There are dogs.]
About why they just don't go away like you want them to. You mean the original pre-1947 inhabitants who were primarily a mix of Muslim, Christian and Jewish farmers, fishers and shepherds? Please be precise.

And why they refuse to be driven off.
Because they were there before you were. But like I said before, not very well armed. And they find their strength in the love they have. Anyone can read your hate filled posts, spewing unfounded ( you never provide quotes for these supposed epitaphs, but that never stops you... ) castigations about others while never allowing the slightest trace of remorse about the misery and grief for your fellow man the waves of massacres, the clearly expressed ideology your leadership espoused ( espouses ) and even the attitude of your posts has caused the Palestinians.

I believe the true test of a zionist is the total paralysis of the remorse factor.
Coupled with an avid coveting of their neighbors land.

-Taking an exceptional individual and an exceptional group of fanatics consecrating his memory and generalizing then to an entire nation is another hallmark act of bigots-

I think the main problem I have is the fact that it [ this memorial to a man who was allowed ( it later turned out he had IDF support to cover his back ) to walk into a Mosque and empty several clips from an auto-matic weapon into the unarmed and praying Muslims ] was allowed to to erected and to this day stands as a tacit idealized ideology of ethnic supremacy and hate.

It kinda comes through loud and clear.
You can tear that piece of racist celebration down while you're retuning massive property holdings and paying reparations.

I don't know where Wing Commander Locksley gets his aircraft information (perhaps from comic books) but the ME 109 and the Bf 109 were the same plane. He should do a google search on the ME 109 and enlighten himself. Then maybe he cab buy a scale model Bf-109 and fly it around his living room for hours , pretending that he is strafing Arab peasants.
All this nonsense about the zionists not flying Nazi planes is attempt ot change the subject to trivia and away from the topic of zionist theft of Arab land.
By the way, no one here stated that all Germans, or even all German military officers, were in favor of the Holocaust, just as not all Jews support the theft of Arab land and the murder of its owners.

Only a zionist would argue about the *training and particular ordinance* used to attack from automatic cannon mounted in fighter aircraft, a village armed with farm tools and a few muskets.
I can see how the daunted isreal airforce manages to retain its supremacy against the Mighty Palestine High Guard with their advanced Kites.
They must be incredible and skilled heros.

A New low for Indymedia, someone trying to exonerate Germany for the Holocaust, "Well not ALL theGermans officers..."

Purest nonsense, , read "Hitler's Wiling Executioners"

Meanwhile the Grand Mufti Al-Huseini, the leader of the Arabs in "Palestine", sat out WWII in Berlin, while planning where the death camps for Jews would be placed in "Palestine" after Germnay's victory. Those are the REAL roots of "Palestinianism" that we aren't allowed to discuss because its taboo.

Good idea, but allso read this:

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html
On the murderous road to "racial purity" Hitler encountered unexpected detours, largely due to his own crazed views and inconsistent policies regarding Jewish identity. After centuries of Jewish assimilation and intermarriage in German society, he discovered that eliminating Jews from the rest of the population was more difficult than he'd anticipated. As Bryan Mark Rigg shows in this provocative new study, nowhere was that heinous process more fraught with contradiction and confusion than in the German military.

Contrary to conventional views, Rigg reveals that a startlingly large number of German military men were classified by the Nazis as Jews or "partial-Jews" (Mischlinge), in the wake of racial laws first enacted in the mid-1930s. Rigg demonstrates that the actual number was much higher than previously thought--perhaps as many as 150,000 men, including decorated veterans and high-ranking officers, even generals and admirals.

As Rigg fully documents for the first time, a great many of these men did not even consider themselves Jewish and had embraced the military as a way of life and as devoted patriots eager to serve a revived German nation. In turn, they had been embraced by the Wehrmacht, which prior to Hitler had given little thought to the "race" of these men but which was now forced to look deeply into the ancestry of its soldiers.

The process of investigation and removal, however, was marred by a highly inconsistent application of Nazi law. Numerous "exemptions" were made in order to allow a soldier to stay within the ranks or to spare a soldier's parent, spouse, or other relative from incarceration or far worse. (Hitler's own signature can be found on many of these "exemption" orders.) But as the war dragged on, Nazi politics came to trump military logic, even in the face of the Wehrmacht's growing manpower needs, closing legal loopholes and making it virtually impossible for these soldiers to escape the fate of millions of other victims of the Third Reich.

Based on a deep and wide-ranging research in archival and secondary sources, as well as extensive interviews with more than four hundred Mischlinge and their relatives, Rigg's study breaks truly new ground in a crowded field and shows from yet another angle the extremely flawed, dishonest, demeaning, and tragic essence of Hitler's rule.
Mugshot Style Pictures of Anton Mayer
Side and front photographs of "half-Jew" Anton Mayer, similar to those that often accompanied a Mischling's application for exemption.

To see more photographs from the book, click here

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righitpix.html

"Through videotaped interviews, painstaking attention to personnel files, and banal documents not normally consulted by historians, and spurred by a keen sense of personal mission, Rigg has turned up an unexplored and confounding chapter in the history of the Holocaust. The extent of his findings has surprised scholars."--Warren Hoge, New York Times

"The revelation that Germans of Jewish blood, knowing the Nazi regime for what it was, served Hitler as uniformed members of his armed forces must come as a profound shock. It will surprise even professional historians of the Nazi years." --John Keegan, author of The Face of Battle and The Second World War

"Startling and unexpected, Rigg's study conclusively demonstrates the degree of flexibility in German policy toward the Mischlinge, the extent of Hitler's involvement, and, most importantly, that not all who served in the armed forces were anti-Semitic, even as their service aided the killing process."--Michael Berenbaum, author of The World Must Know: The History of the Holocaust

"Rigg's extensive knowledge and the preliminary conclusions drawn from his research impressed me greatly. I firmly believe that his in-depth treatment of the subject of German soldiers of Jewish descent in the Wehrmacht will lead to new perspectives on this portion of 20th century German military history."--Helmut Schmidt, Former Chancellor of Germany

"An impressively researched work with important implications for hotly debated questions. Rigg tells some exquisitely poignant stories of individual human experiences that complicate our picture of state and society in the Third Reich."--Nathan A. Stoltzfus, Florida State University, author of Resistance of the Heart: Intermarriage and the Rosenstrasse Protest in Nazi Germany

"An impressive work filled with interesting stories. . . . By helping us better understand Nazi racial policy at the margins--i.e., its impact on certain members of the German military--Rigg's study clarifies the central problems of Nazi Jewish policies overall."--Norman Naimark, Stanford University, author of Fires of Hatred: Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe

"An illuminating and provocative study that merits a wide readership and is sure to be much discussed."--Dennis E. Showalter, Colorado College, author of Tannenberg: Clash of Empires

"An outstanding job of research and analysis. Rigg's book will add a great deal to our understanding of the German military, of the place of Jews and people of Jewish descent in the Nazi state, and of the Holocaust. It forces us to deal with the full, complex range of possible actions and reactions by individuals caught up in the Nazi system."--Geoffrey P. Megargee, author of Inside Hitler's High Command

"With the skill of a master detective, Bryan Rigg reveals the surprising and largely unknown story of Germans of Jewish origins in the Nazi military. His work contributes to our understanding of the complexity of faith and identity in the Third Reich."--Paula E. Hyman, Yale University, author of Gender and Assimilation in Modern Jewish History and The Jews of Modern France

"A major piece of scholarship which traces the peculiar twists and turns of Nazi racial policy toward men in the Wehrmacht, often in the highest ranks, who had partly Jewish backgrounds. Rigg has uncovered personal stories and private archives which literally nobody knew existed. His book will be an important contribution to German history."--Jonathan Steinberg, University of Pennsylvania, author of All or Nothing: The Axis and the Holocaust 1941-1943

"An original, groundbreaking, and significant contribution to the history of the Wehrmacht and Nazi Germany."--James S. Corum, School of Advanced Air Power Studies, author of The Roots of Blitzkrieg and The Luftwaffe

"Rigg's work has discovered new academic territory."--Manfred Messerschmidt, Freiburg University, author of Die Wehrmacht im NS-Staat (The Wehrmacht in the Nazi State)

"Rigg's bracing and unintimidated study lays bare the contradiction, confusion and expedience that governed Mischlinge policy and the maiming cost to those whose lives were burdened by anxiety, guilt and collusion. In the end we must be grateful for his book, a penetrating light cast on some of the murkier corners of the human psyche."--Michael Skakun, Aufbau

"Rigg has opened brand new territory for historians and students of war, offering new insight into the Nazi mentality on race."--World War II Magazine

"Rigg has done a very significant piece of historical research and writing."--Milt Rosenberg, WGN Radio, Chicago

"Rigg has written a truly important history. It is original, it has outstanding scholarship, and there is plenty of it!"--James F. Tent, author of In the Shadow of the Holocaust: Nazi Persecution of Jewish-Christian Germans

"A brilliant and extremely disturbing work of masterful historical research. A must read for everyone. It raises more moral dilemmas than one can answer."--Steve Pieczenik, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and co-creator of the best selling novels and TV series OP-Center and Net Force

BRYAN MARK RIGG received his B.A. with honors in history from Yale University in 1996. Yale awarded him the Henry Fellowship for graduate study at Cambridge University, where he received his M.A. in 1997 and Ph.D. in 2002. Currently Professor of History at American Military University, he has served as a volunteer in the Israeli Army and as an officer in the U.S. Marine Corps. His research for this book has been featured in the New York Times, Los Angeles Times, and London Daily Telegraph. For more information on Bryan Rigg, view his web site at www.bryanrigg.com.

Click here to learn more about the author and his research experiences.

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righitqanda.html

The thousands of pages of documents and oral testimonies (8mm and VHS video) the author collected for this study have been purchased by the National Military Archive of Germany. The Bryan Mark Rigg Collection is housed in the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg, Germany.

To view resource materials, including notes, bibliography, and index, click here.

http://kudiglib.ku.edu/projects/rigg_bm.pdf

Isn't it interesting that Israel has warm relations with the succesor state to the Ottoman Empire - Turkey, one of the few Muslim states willing to embrace the zionists. Maybe it is just another case of birds of a feather flocking together. Israel had another good buddy in the Shah of Iran - surely a man deeply committed to freedom and dignity for all peoples.

Every time they bring up Al-Husseini, I’m going to tell you about Polkes, Begin, Shamir and the rest of the Nazi collaborator/terrorist gang that founded the rogue state of Israel.

Hajj Amin Al Husseini wasn't Hitler's only stooge in British occupied Palestine. Consider the case of Fieval Polkes:

"Von Bolschwing was deeply involved in intelligence work--and in the persecution of innocent people -- for most of his adult life. He had joined the Nazi party at the age of twenty-three, in 1932, and had become an SD (party security service) informer almost immediately. In the years leading up to 1939, von Bolschwing became a leading Nazi intelligence agent in the Middle East, where he worked under cover as an importer in Jerusalem. One of his first brushes with Nazi espionage work, according to captured SS records, was a role in creating a covert agreement between the Nazis and Fieval Polkes, a commander of the militant Zionist organization Haganah, whom von Bolschwing had met through business associates in the Mideast. Under the arrangement the Haganah was permitted to run recruiting and training camps for Jewish youth inside Germany. These young people, as well as certain other Jews driven out of Germany by the Nazis, were encouraged to emigrate to Palestine. Polkes and the Haganah, in return, agreed to provide the SS with intelligence about British affairs in Palestine. Captured German records claim that Polkes believed the increasingly brutal Nazi persecution of the Jews could be turned to Zionist advantage -- at least temporarily -- by compelling Jewish immigration to Palestine, and that the Haganah commander's sole source of income, moreover, was secret funds from the SS.

It was in the course of these negotiations that the young Baron von Bolschwing gained the trust of Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party. The acquaintance was more than a casual one, for von Bolschwing went on to play a central role in arranging conferences between Eichmann and Polkes in Vienna and Cairo, contacts that established Eichmann as the SS's Jewish affairs expert and laid the foundation for his later career as the architect of the extermination of European Jewry.”

-- Blowback : America's Recruitment of Nazis and Its Effects on the Cold War by Christopher Simpson, ISBN: 1555841066, p 253

Simpson’s source on this is:

Sicherheitsdienst des RFSS SD-Hauptamt, Palastinareise Bericht (U.S. designation no. 173-b-16-14/61), now at Frames 2936012-2936068, microfilm roll 411, T-175, RG 242, NA, Washington, D.C.

* * * * *

After the war, von Bolschwing settled in California. He became a Republican Party activist and a personal friend of Richard Nixon. Among his other accomplishments, he perpetrated the single largest stock fraud in California’s history. He squirmed out of the charges when a patsy took the fall for him. Later he was partners in a defense electronics company called TCI with Iran-contra figures Richard Secord and (Iranian Jew) Albert Hakim.

What a guy, huh? For details, see:

http://www.newsmakingnews.com/mbtape11,22,81,520.htm

* * * * *

Then there was Menachem Begin, terrorist extrordinaire, who later was elected to the highest office in the land.

Before that, he waged war against Hitler enemies.

See:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/irgun.html

Irgun Zeva'i Le'umi
“The National Military Organization” (Etzel, I.Z.L.)

(snip)

From 1943 Etzel was headed by Menachem Begin. In February 1944, Etzel declared war against the British administration. It attacked and blew up government offices, military installations and police stations.

(snip)

* * * * *

Continued at:

http://maritimes.indymedia.org/news/2006/11/14123_comment.php#14322

ever wonder why Adolph Eichmann was kidnapped into isreal to be tried in a sound proof cell and executed?
They didn't want to have the information of his working with the Zionists to invade Palestine with tools and money and weapons to become well known?

re: Eichman

No. Because The civilized Jewish people don't believe in lynching without a trial.

Otherwise, if they did, he would have just had a mysterious anonymous death somewhere. Preferably a long drawn out and painful one, at that

Re: Eichmann
If the intention was to eliminate him, that could have been easily accomplished without a trial.
Anonymously, painful, slowly.

No. The Israelis were not interested in lynching him. There was a trial for the world to see. The world was able to bear witness. And that was precisely the point.

Re: Eichmann
If the intention was to eliminate him, that could have been easily accomplished without a trial.
Anonymously, painful, slowly.

No. The Israelis were not interested in lynching him. There was a trial for the world to see. The world was able to bear witness. And that was precisely the point.

Only a racist would even imagine that all Jews think alike, or that of all the world's peoples, only Jews are incapable of committing extralegal revenge.

For example:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/24/world/main1165149.shtml

Holocaust 'Avengers' Reunite
JERUSALEM, Dec. 24, 2005(AP) A group of elderly Holocaust survivors came forward with accounts of a death squad they formed after World War II to take revenge on their Nazi persecutors, recounting a brazen operation in which they poisoned hundreds of SS officers.

In a Friday broadcast on Israel Channel Two TV, the survivors, some of whom fought in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, recalled hunting down SS officers in the dead of night. Disguised as British or American officers, they would drag the SS men out of their homes and execute them, they said.

In their largest operation, the group, code-named "the Avengers," received a large amount of arsenic from Paris and laced loaves of bread fed to hundreds of SS officers imprisoned in an American camp after the war.

They said they were also planning a broad operation in Dachau and Nuremberg, but the Jewish leadership in what would soon become Israel forced them to abandon the plan.

"I didn't see myself as a murderer, not then and not today," group member Simcha Rotem told Channel Two.

The broadcast focused on a rare reunion of the group that took place earlier this month in a Tel Aviv suburb. Sixty years after the end of World War II, with most of several dozen "Avengers" either dead or in their late 70s and 80s, Rotem told The Associated Press they gave into family pressure to recount their experiences to their children, grandchildren and other relatives.

Over the years, reports of such Jewish death squads have surfaced and several books have been written. The Israeli government has often turned a blind eye to the reports. Earlier this year, it refused a request from Poland to extradite a suspected death squad member.

Aaron Breitbart, senior researcher at the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, said the tale of the bread-poisoning plot is plausible.

"This is not a story that somebody is telling out of a hat. There was such a plan. We just don't know how close they got" to carrying it out, Breitbart said.

With just a handful of Avengers left, and their actions part of history, the elderly survivors feel they have nothing to lose by speaking publicly about their operations.

One of the few surviving members of the fighters in the Ghetto Uprising, Rotem spent the entire war battling the Nazis. At the end of the war, he went to Bucharest where he met Nava (Abba) Kovner, the head of a group of Avengers from eastern Poland who spent most of the war as partisan fighters.

"I don't remember how I found out that they were thinking of this idea, but I also had this idea," Rotem said. "We walked around for two or three hours and we agreed to things and we began to work. It was very simple."

Rotem, 81 and living in Jerusalem, took charge of a plan to poison to death 28,000 SS officers imprisoned by the Americans in Dachau and Nuremberg in Germany.

"I wanted to finish off the SS officers who were held by the Americans ... unfortunately we did not succeed," Rotem said.

But another plan, carried out in part by Joseph Harmatz, largely succeeded. Harmatz found work at a bakery that supplied bread to American-run prisoner camps.

He said he received arsenic in rubber bottles from Paris, which he then used to poison 3,000 loaves of bread. About 2,280 SS men ate the bread, he said, but couldn't say how many, or if any, died. News reports at the time said more than 200 people were hospitalized, but made no mention of deaths.

"We fled (the Nazis) and we took revenge," the elderly Harmatz told Channel Two in a raspy voice. "We saw ourselves as obligated not to leave Europe so we could settle accounts with the Germans.

Michael Bar-Zohar, author of a book, "The Avengers," published in 1967, said the bread poisoning was the group's biggest operation.

They also considered an attempt to poison the water supply of five German cities but decided against it, Bar-Zohar said. Rotem confirmed they had other plans that were called off because they were afraid of killing innocent people.

The group, which included about 40 members, was largely made up of Jews who spent the entire war fighting the Nazis, Bar-Zohar said.

"Their spirit hadn't been broken by the concentration camps," Bar-Zohar said. The camp survivors "didn't have the will or desire to avenge."

How about blowing people up by planting explosives inside their portable phones? Of course, I'm sure that Arafat was not poisoned, and if he was the Mossad was not involved.

Homophobia aside, "everyone" does not "know" that Arafat died of AIDS. Actually, few people die directly of AIDS; they die of some disease that their weakened immune systems could not fight off. Now, what disease do you think Arafat died of? Poisoning seems much more likely to me. In any event, the explosive phone (and countless other incidents) prove that Israel does execute people without trials.

Please do not post messages under my name, Mr/Ms. Zionist. If you have nothing to say, then just don't post anything.

I can't help being on everyone's tongue ( or keyboard ) I'm so popular.
Don't let the zionazi parrots with the usual toe jam they post in order to trash any comment that treads not so softly on their raw nerves, be anything but praise, Mr. London. And think of the whopping huge credit we'll get when the editors do a scupper dump.
Do know you're doing good when they degenerate to noise.
Ever try to talk in the presence of a parakeet? You'd know what I mean if you ever had one and observed the trait of their propensity to try and dominate any attempt to converse by the escalation of their silly noise until they're literally screeching...
Just like zionists.

When the zionists cannot answer an argument, they resort to changing the subject, sliding into buffoonery, or forging posts with other people's names or handles. It shows that they have nothing to say that they didn't read in AIPAC pamphlets or see in the movie Exodus.

You fucking little pricks with the porn ads are only bringing up the embarrassing crap you are trying to smother with this shit. I'd love to kick the living piss out of who is doing it.

help children! if you search for Corporations and any thing SEARCH FOR HELP all incomes will go for the needs of children.email this and say to your friends! Thanks