washingtonpost.com

Looters Stole 6,000 Artifacts
Number Expected to Rise as Officials Take Inventory in Iraq

By Guy Gugliotta
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, June 21, 2003; Page A16


U.S. and Iraqi officials have confirmed the theft of at least 6,000 artifacts from Iraq's National Museum of Antiquities during a prolonged looting spree as U.S. forces entered Baghdad two months ago, a leading archaeologist said yesterday.

University of Chicago archaeologist McGuire Gibson said the U.S. Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement told him June 13 that the official count of missing items had reached 6,000 and was climbing as museum and Customs investigators proceeded with an inventory of three looted storerooms.

The June 13 total was double the number of stolen items reported by Customs a week earlier, and Gibson suggested the final tally could be "far, far worse." Customs could not immediately obtain an updated report, a spokesman said.

The mid-June count was the latest in a confusing chain of seemingly contradictory estimates of losses at the museum, the principal repository of artifacts from thousands of Iraqi archaeological sites documenting human history from the dawn of civilization 7,000 years ago to the pinnacle of medieval Islam.

It now appears, however, that although the losses were not nearly as grave as early reports indicated, they go far beyond the 33 items known to have been taken from the museum's display halls. Gibson said looters sacked two ground-floor storerooms and broke into a third in the basement. Two other storerooms appear to have been untouched.

Gibson noted that there are "thousands of things that are broken" but not listed as missing. And teams of archaeologists sent by the National Geographic Society found widespread looting of artifacts from sites outside Baghdad. None of these are museum pieces, and most were simply plucked from the ground.

"Like any museum, the display collection is an iceberg," Gibson said. "Because this is an archaeological museum, there's a huge amount of stuff that's important to the sites themselves and to researchers, but never goes on display."

Looters broke into the downtown Baghdad museum and sacked it for several days in early April as U.S. forces toppled the government of Saddam Hussein and took possession of the Iraqi capital. U.S. soldiers were harshly criticized for standing idle as the looters rampaged through the building.

The museum housed 170,000 numbered items and thousands more artifacts that had either not yet been catalogued or had been set aside in a ground-floor "study collection" storeroom for researchers to examine.

Reporters and investigators arriving in the first days after the looting saw a virtually empty museum that had been thoroughly trashed. They assumed the worst, Gibson said, an impression that the museum staff did not seek to dispel.

In fact, the staff -- anticipating possible looting -- had spirited away a huge portion of the inventory, including almost everything portable in the display collection, and stashed it either in the basement or in off-site bunkers, Gibson said. Staff had also hidden a gold collection in a Central Bank vault during the 1991 Persian Gulf War and never removed it.

When U.S. authorities took their first close look at the damage, it appeared the finest artifacts had been "cherry-picked" by thieves with inside knowledge. Some U.S. officials suggested that staff members might have been complicit.

"This was unfortunate" but easily explained, Gibson said. Bitterly offended by U.S. forces' failure to protect the museum from the looters, staffers "were not going to give information on where things were," he added. Today, museum staff and U.S. investigators from Customs and the FBI have "a very good relationship," Gibson said.

Although the display collection lost only a few heavy, nonremovable artifacts that were either cut in pieces or ripped from their pedestals, the overall toll was much worse. Staff members began to inventory the museum's five storerooms in May. Losses there numbered in the thousands.

Both ground-floor storerooms had been looted, Gibson said. One housed the study collection, while the other held shelved artifacts and about 10 steel trunks containing as-yet unnumbered material from recent digs. All the trunks had been opened and emptied, Gibson said.

Two basement storerooms appeared to be untouched, including one containing most of the museum's priceless collection of cuneiform tablets, Gibson said. The third had been breached, however, and contained "some of the most important stuff in the museum, including pottery and ivory inlays," he added.



© 2003 The Washington Post Company

Comment by Michael Rivero:
"According to the CIA whistleblower story at Al Martin Raw, much of that loot was grabbed by US Covert teams. No wonder the US military stood back and let the public loot the place, to cover up the original crime. "

...to cover the story up.

We believe you.

Really we do.

Wanna buy a Bridge?

BUSH LIED, CHILDREN DIED. It really is that simple.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52824-2003Jun12.html

"It took only 48 hours for the museum to be destroyed, with at least 170,000 artifacts carried away by looters."

-- New York Times, April 13

"You'd have to go back centuries, to the Mongol invasion of Baghdad in 1258, to find looting on this scale."

-- British archaeologist Eleanor Robson, New York Times, April 16

Well, not really. Turns out the Iraqi National Museum lost not 170,000 treasures but 33. You'd have to go back centuries, say, to the Mongol invasion of Baghdad in 1258, to find mendacity on this scale.

What happened? The source of the lie, Donny George, director general of research and study of the Iraqi State Board of Antiquities, now says (Washington Post, June 9) that he originally told the media that "there were 170,000 pieces in the entire museum collection. Not 170,000 pieces stolen. No, no, no. That would be every single object we have!"

Of course, George saw the story of the stolen 170,000 museum pieces go around the world and said nothing -- indeed, two weeks later, he was in London calling the looting "the crime of the century." Why? Because George and the other museum officials who wept on camera were Baath Party appointees, and the media, Western and Arab, desperate to highlight the dark side of the liberation of Iraq, bought their deceptions without an ounce of skepticism.

It played on front pages everywhere and allowed for some deeply satisfying antiwar preening. For example, a couple of nonentities on a panel no one had ever heard of (the President's Cultural Property Advisory Committee) received major media play for their ostentatious resignations over the cultural rape of Baghdad.

Frank Rich best captured the spirit of antiwar vindication when he wrote (New York Times, April 27) that "the pillaging of the Baghdad museum has become more of a symbol of Baghdad's fall than the toppling of a less exalted artistic asset, the Saddam statue."

The narcissism, the sheer snobbery of this statement, is staggering. The toppling of Saddam Hussein freed 25 million people from 30 years of torture, murder, war, starvation and impoverishment at the hands of a psychopathic family that matched Stalin for cruelty but took far more pleasure in it. For Upper West Side liberalism, this matters less than the destruction of a museum.

Which didn't even happen! What now becomes of Rich's judgment that the destruction of the museum constitutes "the naked revelation of our worst instincts at the very dawn of our grandiose project to bring democratic values to the Middle East"? Does he admit that this judgment was nothing but a naked revelation of the cheapest instincts of the antiwar left -- that, shamed by the jubilation of Iraqis upon their liberation, a liberation the Western left did everything it could to prevent, the left desperately sought to change the subject and taint the victory?

Hardly. The left simply moved on to another change of subject: the "hyping" of the weapons of mass destruction.

"Of course it isn't to cover the story up. We believe you. Really we do. Wanna buy a Bridge?"

The ignoratti who are blindly against anything "Bush" don't get it.
They are incapable of getting it.

Read this:

Well, not really. Turns out the Iraqi National Museum lost not 170,000 treasures but 33.

Sorry, no sale you will note the dateline on the posted story is today not April 13th.

The numbers quoted reflect current estimates not PR Spin
designed to defuse a very ugly situation.

Further, for what it is worth, according to ex Bush Cabal insider
Al Martin and his Whistleblower report the Bush Cabal was complicit
in the looting of the museum.

Data insufficient to draw a firm conclusion. However, we do know that the damage was extensive.

By the way did the Dog Eat Your WMDs?

BUSH LIED, CHILDREN DIED.

PROTESTERS GET HIGH, STARVING CHILDREN DIE - It really is that simple.

We've already heard from you. Either they will find no WMD's, or if they do, it was
because the "Bush Jaunta" had them planted. In your world, there is no possibility
for any other explanations. That is, the world of the open-minded ones who know
all and see all and are to be worshipped by the masses for bringing us all
out of darkness into the wonderful light. Thank You. Thank You. Thank You. We
bestow all our worldly possessions to the working class of the world in your honor
and fall down and worship you, the one and only living god who has led us to truth.
Thank You. Thank You. Thank You. We can never say it enough, the lord and master
of all those who believe as you do.

It is very clear and simple but let me explain in small words so you get it.

Bush Junta say we know bad man have weapons.
We know where weapons are.
We invade.
We take weapons.
No weapons found despite pious claims.
Bush Lied.
Case Closed.

No weapons found YET!!

Case still open.
Case never closed on account of left.
Left opinions don't matter.
Evidence already showing left don't matter.
Evidence already showing people like you
don't matter.
Further evidence will be election 2004.

Why Saddam not cooperate with UN inspectors
if he have no WMD's?
Why he make everyone believe that he do?
Why no other countries (France, Germany, Russia,
China) speak up at UN and say they don't believe Iraq
has WMD's?
Why no links to anything you wrote on LA-IMC prior
to war starting saying anything about Bush lieing
about WMD's?
If you knew different, why only afterwards are you
accusing Bush of lieing?

PROTESTERS GET HIGH, STARVING CHILDREN DIE - It really is that simple.

...I did in fact say so before Duhbya launched his murderous campaign.

Here are few names of some of his victims:

Army Sgt. Michael E. Dooley, 23, of Pulaski, Va., was killed in an ambush on an American checkpoint in western Iraq. Dooley served in the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment out of Fort Carson near Colorado Springs, Colo. Army Pvt. Jesse M. Halling, 19, of Indianapolis, Ind., was killed in Tikrit, Iraq. Halling was assigned to 401st Military Police Company at Fort Hood, Texas. A rocket grenade and small arms fire hit a military police station in Iraq, killing Halling, the Department of Defense said. Army Pfc. Branden Oberleitner, killed in Fallujah, Iraq, when he and other soldiers were fired on by a rifle-propelled grenade. Sgt. Atanacio Haromarin, 27, of Baldwin Park, Calif., a member of the Army's 4th Infantry Division was killed near Balad, Iraq, when he and other soldiers came under attack while manning a checkpoint. Haromarin was assigned to Battery C, 3rd Battalion, 16th Field Artillery Regiment at Fort Hood. Army Spc. Kyle A. Griffin, 20, an infantryman with the 51st Infantry (Long Surveillance), 519th Military Intelligence Battalion, was killed when the tactical vehicle in which he was traveling had an accident on a road between Mosul and Tikrit in Iraq, according to the U.S. Army. Staff Sgt. Michael B. Quinn, 37, and Sgt. Thomas F. Broomhead, 34, both of the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, based in Fort Carson, Colorado, were killed in a firefight in Fallujah. Maj. Mathew E. Schram, 36, died when a convoy was ambushed 120 miles north of Baghdad. Army Pvt. David Evans Jr., 18, a member of the 977th Military Police Company in Fort Riley, Kan., was killed in an explosion at a munitions site he was guarding in southern Iraq. Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. Dick Cheney, August 26, 2002 Army Spc. Nathaniel A. Caldwell, 27, Omaha, Neb., vehicle accident Army Lt. Col. Dominic R. Baragona, 42, Niles, Ohio, vehicle accident. Marine Capt. Andrew David Lamont, 31, of Eureka, Calif., helicopter crash Marine Lance Cpl. Jason William Moore, 21, of San Marcos, Calif., helicopter crash Marine 1st Lt. Timothy Louis Ryan, 30, of Aurora, Ill., helicopter crash Marine Sgt. Kirk Allen Straseskie, 23, Beaver Dam, Wis., drowning Marine Staff Sgt. Aaron Dean White, 27, of Shawnee, Okla., helicopter crash Army Spc. Rasheed Sahib, 22, New York City, accidental weapon discharge Marine Cpl. Douglas Jose Marencoreyes, 28, Chino, Calif., vehicle accident Master Sgt. William L. Payne, 46, Otsego, Mich., ordnance explosion. Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons. George W. Bush, September 12, 2002 Lance Cpl. Nicholas Brian Kleiboeker, 19, Irvington, Ill., explosion Army Spec. David T. Nutt, 32, Blackshear, Ga., vehicle accident Air Force Staff Sgt. Patrick L. Griffin Jr., 31, Elgin, S.C., convoy was ambushed Marine Lance Cpl. Jakub H. Kowalik, 21, Schaumburg, Ill., handling unexploded ordnance that detonated Marine Pfc. Jose Francis Gonzalez Rodriguez, 19, Norwalk, Calif., handling unexploded ordnance that detonated Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew R. Smith, 20, Anderson, Ind., vehicle accident in Kuwait Marine Lance Cpl. Cedric E. Bruns, 22, Vancouver, Wash., vehicle accident in Kuwait Cpl. Richard P. Carl, 26, King Hill, Idaho, helicopter crash. Chief Warrant Officer Hans N. Gukeisen, 31, of Lead, S.D., helicopter crash. Chief Warrant Officer Brian K. Van Dusen, 39, of Columbus Ohio, helicopter crash Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons. ... We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have. George W. Bush, October 5, 2002 Army Pfc. Marlin Rockhold, 23, Hamilton, Ohio, sniper Army Pvt. Jason L. Deibler, 20, Coeburn, Va., non-combat weapon discharge. Army Sgt. Sean Reynolds, 25, East Lansing, Mich., weapon accident Army Pfc. Jesse A. Givens, 34, Springfield, Mo., tank accident Army 1st Sgt. Joe J. Garza, 43, Robstown, Texas, vehicle accident Army Spc. Narson B. Sullivan, 21, North Brunswick, N.J., non-combat weapon discharge. Army 1st Lt. Osbaldo Orozco, 26, Delano, Calif., vehicle accident Army Sgt. Troy D. Jenkins, 25, of Repton, Ala., cluster bomb explosion The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas. We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States. The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons. George W. Bush, October 7, 2002 Marine Chief Warrant Officer Andrew T. Arnold, 30, of Spring, Texas., grenade launcher accident Army Spc. Roy R. Buckley, 24, of Portage, Ind. Marine Chief Warrant Officer Robert W. Channell Jr., 36, of Tuscaloosa, Ala., grenade launcher accident. Marine Lance Cpl. Alan D. Lam, 19, of Snow Camp, N.C., grenade launcher accident Army Cpl. John T. Rivero, 23, Gainesville, Fla., vehicle accident If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world. Ari Fleischer, December 2, 2002 Army Pvt. Johnny Brown, 21, Troy, Ala., vehicle accident Army Spc. Thomas Arthur Foley III, 23, of Dresden, Tenn., accidental grenade explosion Marine Cpl. Armando Ariel Gonzalez, 25, of Hialeah, Fla., vehicle accident Army Spc. Richard A. Goward, 32, of Midland, Mich., vehicle accident Army Pfc. Joseph P. Mayek, 20, of Rock Springs, Wyo., accidental weapons discharge Marine Cpl. Jason David Mileo, 20, Centreville, Md., friendly fire Army Spc. Gil Mercado, 25, of Paterson, N.J., non-combat weapon discharge Marine Cpl. Jesus A. Gonzalez, 22, Indio, Calif., combat Marine Lance Cpl. David Edward Owens Jr., 20, of Winchester, Va., combat. Marine Staff Sgt. Riayan A. Tejeda, 26, New York, N.Y., combat The president of the United States and the secretary of defense would not assert as plainly and bluntly as they have that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction if it was not true, and if they did not have a solid basis for saying it. Ari Fleischer December 6, 2002 Marine Gunnery Sgt. Jeff Bohr, 39, of San Clemente, Calif., combat Army Staff Sgt. Terry W. Hemingway, 39, Willingboro, N.J., combat Army Cpl. Henry L. Brown, 22, Natchez, Miss. combat Marine Pfc. Juan Guadalupe Garza, 20, Temperance, Mich., combat Army Sgt. 1st Class John W. Marshall, 50, Los Angeles, combat Army Pfc. Jason M. Meyer, 23, Howell, Mich., combat Air Force Staff Sgt. Scott D. Sather, 29, Clio, Mich., combat Army Staff Sgt. Robert A. Stever, 36, Pendleton, Ore., combat We know for a fact that there are weapons there. Ari Fleischer January 9, 2003 Marine Lance Cpl. Andrew Julian Aviles, 18, Tampa, Fla., combat Air Force Capt. Eric B. Das, 30, of Amarillo, Texas, combat Army Staff Sgt. Lincoln Hollinsaid, 27, Malden, Ill., combat Army 2nd Lt. Jeffrey J. Kaylor, 24, Clifton, Va., combat Marine Cpl. Jesus Martin Antonio Medellin, 21, Fort Worth, Texas, combat Army Pfc. Anthony S. Miller, 19, San Antonio, combat Army Spc. George A. Mitchell, 35, Rawlings, Md., combat Air Force Maj. William R. Watkins III, 37, Danville, Va., combat It appears to be a re-run of a bad movie. [Iraqi President Saddam Hussein] is delaying. He's deceiving. He's asking for time. He's playing hide-and-seek with inspectors. One thing is for certain — he's not disarming. George W. Bush, January 21, 2003 Army Pfc. Gregory P. Huxley Jr., 19, Forestport, N.Y., combat Army Pvt. Kelley S. Prewitt, 24, Alabama, combat. Army Sgt. Stevon Booker, 34, Apollo, Pa., combat Army Spc. Larry K. Brown, 22, of Jackson, Miss., combat Marine 1st Sgt. Edward Smith, 38, Vista., Calif., combat Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. George W. Bush, January 28, 2003 Army Capt. Tristan N. Aitken, 31, State College, Pa., combat Army Pfc. Wilfred D. Bellard, 20, Lake Charles, La., vehicle fell into ravine Army Spc. Daniel Francis J. Cunningham, 33, Lewiston, Maine, vehicle fell into ravine Marine Capt. Travis Ford, 30, Oceanside, Calif., helicopter crash Marine Cp. Bernard G. Gooden, 22, Mount Vernon, N.Y., combat We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more. Colin Powell, February 5, 2003 Army Pvt. Devon D. Jones, 19, San Diego, vehicle fell into ravine Marine 1st Lt. Brian M. McPhillips, 25, Pembroke, Mass., combat Marine Sgt. Duane R. Rios, 25, Griffith, Ind., combat. Marine Capt. Benjamin Sammis, 29, Rehoboth, Mass., helicopter crash Army Sgt. 1st Class Paul R. Smith, 33, of Tampa, Fla., combat We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have. George W. Bush, February 8, 2003 Marine Pfc. Chad E. Bales, 20, Coahoma, Texas, non-hostile accident Army Sgt. Wilbert Davis, 40, Hinesville, Ga., vehicle accident Marine Cpl. Mark A. Evnin, 21, South Burlington, Vt., combat Army Capt. Edward J. Korn, 31, Savannah, Ga., combat Army Staff Sgt. Nino D. Livaudais, 23, Ogden, Utah, combat Army Spc. Ryan P. Long, 21, Seaford, Del., combat Army Spc. Donald S. Oaks Jr., 20, Harborcreek, Pa., combat Army Sgt. 1st Class Randy Rehn, 36, Longmont, Colo., combat Army Capt. Russell B. Rippetoe, 27, Arvada, Colo., combat Army Sgt. Todd J. Robbins, 33, Hart, Mich., combat Marine Cpl. Erik H. Silva, 23, Holtville, Calif., combat So has the strategic decision been made to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction by the leadership in Baghdad? . . . I think our judgment has to be clearly not. Colin Powell, March 7, 2003 Army Capt. James F. Adamouski, 29, Springfield, Va., helicopter crash Marine Lance Cpl. Brian E. Anderson, 26, Durham, N.C., non-hostile accident Army Spc. Mathew Boule, 22, Dracut, Mass., helicopter crash Army Master Sgt. George A. Fernandez, 36, El Paso, Texas Marine Pfc. Christian D. Gurtner, 19, Ohio City, Ohio, non-combat weapons discharge Army Chief Warrant Officer Erik A. Halvorsen, 40, Bennington, Vt., helicopter crash. Army Chief Warrant Officer Scott Jamar, 32, Granbury, Texas, helicopter crash Army Sgt. Michael Pedersen, 26, Flint, Mich., helicopter crash Army Chief Warrant Officer Eric A. Smith, 42, Rochester, N.Y., helicopter crash Navy Lt. Nathan D. White, 30, Mesa, Ariz., F/A-18C Hornet lost over Iraq Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised. George W. Bush, March 17, 2003 Army Sgt. Jacob L. Butler, 24, Wellsville, Kan., combat Marine Lance Cpl. Joseph B. Maglione, 22, Lansdale, Pa., non-combat weapon discharge Army Spc. William A. Jeffries, 39, Evansville, Ind., illness Army Spc. Brandon Rowe, 20, Roscoe, Ill., combat Marine Capt. Aaron J. Contreras, 31, Sherwood, Ore., helicopter crash Marine Sgt. Michael V. Lalush, 23, Troutville, Va., helicopter crash Marine Sgt. Brian McGinnis, 23, St. Georges, Del., helicopter crash Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly . . . all this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes. Ari Fleisher, March 21, 2003 Marine Staff Sgt. James Cawley, 41, Layton, Utah, combat Army Cpl. Michael Curtin, 23, Howell, N.J., suicide attack Army Pfc. Diego Fernando Rincon, 19, Conyers, Ga., suicide attack Army Pfc. Michael Russell Creighton-Weldon, 20, Palm Bay, Fla., suicide attack Marine Lance Cpl. William W. White, 24, New York, vehicle accident Army Sgt. Eugene Williams, 24, Highland, N.Y, suicide attack There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. And . . . as this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them. Gen. Tommy Franks, March 22, 2003 Marine Sgt. Fernando Padilla-Ramirez, 26, San Luis, Ariz., combat Army Sgt. Roderic A. Solomon , 32, Fayetteville, N.C., vehicle accident Marine Gunnery Sgt. Joseph Menusa, 33, Tracy, Calif., combat Marine Lance Cpl. Jesus A. Suarez Del Solar, 20, Escondido, Calif., combat Marine Maj. Kevin G. Nave, 36, White Lake Township, Mich., vehicle accident One of our top objectives is to find and destroy the WMD. There are a number of sites. Pentagon Spokeswoman Victoria Clark, March 22, 2003 Marine Pfc. Francisco A. Martinez Flores, 21, Los Angeles, combat Navy Hospital Corpsman 3rd Class Michael Vann Johnson Jr., 25, Little Rock, Ark., combat Marine Staff Sgt. Donald C. May, Jr., 31, Richmond, Va., combat Marine Lance Cpl. Patrick T. O'Day, 20, Santa Rosa, Calif., combat Marine Cpl. Robert M. Rodriguez, 21, New York, combat Air Force Maj. Gregory Stone, 40, Boise, Idaho, grenade attack Marine Lance Cpl. Thomas A. Blair, 24, Broken Arrow, Okla., combat Marine Cpl. Evan James, 20, La Harpe, Ill., drowned in canal Marine Sgt. Bradley S. Korthaus, 29, Davenport, Iowa, drowned in canal Army Spc. Gregory P. Sanders, 19, Hobart, Ind., combat Army Spc. Jamaal R. Addison, 22, Roswell, Ga., combat Army Sgt. Edward John Anguiano, 24, Los Fresnos, Texas Marine Sgt. Michael E. Bitz, 31, Ventura, Calif., combat Marine Lance Cpl. Brian Rory Buesing, 20, Cedar Key, Fla., combat Army Sgt. George Edward Buggs, 31, Barnwell, S.C., combat Marine Pfc. Tamario D. Burkett, 21, Buffalo, N.Y., combat We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat. Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003 Marine Cpl. Kemaphoom A. Chanawongse, 22, Waterford, Conn. Marine Lance Cpl. Donald John Cline, 21, Sparks, Nev., combat Army 1st Sgt. Robert J. Dowdy, 38, Cleveland, combat Army Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, 18, El Paso, Texas, combat Marine Lance Cpl. David K. Fribley, 26, Fort Myers, Fla., combat Marine Cpl. Jose A. Garibay, 21, Costa Mesa, Calif., combat Marine Pvt. Jonathan L. Gifford, 30, Decatur, Ill., combat Marine Cpl. Jorge A. Gonzalez, 20, Los Angeles, combat Marine Pvt. Nolen R. Hutchings, 19, Boiling Springs, S.C. Army Pfc. Howard Johnson II, 21, Mobile, Ala., combat Marine Staff Sgt. Phillip A. Jordan, 42, Enfield, Conn., combat Army Spc. James Kiehl, 22, Comfort, Texas, combat We are in the process of trying to liberate that country. And at the moment where the war ends and the coalition forces occupy the areas where those capabilities -- chemical and biological weapons -- are likely to be, to the extent they haven't been moved out of the country, it obviously is important to find them. Donald Rumsfeld, April 9, 2003 Army Chief Warrant Officer Johnny Villareal Mata, 35, Pecos, Texas, combat Marine Lance Cpl. Patrick R. Nixon, 21, Gallatin, Tenn., combat Army Pfc. Lori Piestewa, 23, Tuba City, Ariz., combat Marine 2nd Lt. Frederick E. Pokorney Jr., 31, Tonopah, Nev., combat Marine Sgt. Brendon Reiss, 23, Casper, Wyo., combat Marine Cpl. Randal Kent Rosacker, 21, San Diego, combat Army Pvt. Brandon Sloan, 19, Bedford Heights, Ohio, combat Marine Lance Cpl. Thomas J. Slocum, 22, Thornton, Colo., combat Army Sgt. Donald Walters, 33, Kansas City, Mo., combat Marine Lance Cpl. Michael J. Williams, 31, Phoenix, Ariz. We have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. Ari Fleischer, April 10, 2003 Navy Lt. Thomas Mullen Adams, 27, La Mesa, Calif., helicopter collision Marine Sgt. Nicolas M. Hodson, 22, Smithville, Mo., vehicle accident Marine Lance Cpl. Eric J. Orlowski, 26, Buffalo, N.Y., machine gun accident Army Capt. Christopher Scott Seifert, 27, Easton, Pa., grenade attack Army Reserve Spc. Brandon S. Tobler, 19, Portland, Ore., vehicle accident Marine Maj. Jay Thomas Aubin, 36, Waterville, Maine, helicopter crash Marine Capt. Ryan Anthony Beaupre, 30, St. Anne, Ill., helicopter crash Marine 2nd Lt. Therrel S. Childers, 30, Harrison County, Miss., combat Marine Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez, 28, Los Angeles, combat Marine Cpl. Brian Matthew Kennedy, 25, Houston, helicopter crash Marine Staff Sgt. Kendall Damon Waters-Bey, 29, Baltimore, helicopter crash For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on. Paul Wolfowitz, May 28, 2003
ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE DEAD BECAUSE BUSH LIED. ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE DEAD BECAUSE CHENEY LIED. ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE DEAD BECAUSE POWELL LIED. ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE DEAD BECAUSE RICE LIED. ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE DEAD BECAUSE PERLE LIED. ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE DEAD BECAUSE WOLFOWITZ LIED. ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE DEAD BECAUSE BLAIR LIED.

"Why no links to anything you wrote on LA-IMC prior
to war starting saying anything about Bush lieing
about WMD's?"

"...I did in fact say so before Duhbya launched his murderous campaign."

Provide the LA-IMC link where, prior to the war starting, you said their were no WMD's to be found in Iraq.

With the handy "Search" feature here at LA-IMC, it shouldn't be too hard for you to cut and paste that little info for us all.

It were you guys that was telling us that even Blix and all the others were wrong.
I'm sure you would have giving us so much credence.

...Dio says he had 'em.

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/47558_comment.php#66383

I stand corrected
by Diogenes • Wednesday April 09, 2003 11:36 AM



...however, the original cultures of the disease organisms, Small Pox, Botchulinim, Anthrax, and Bubonic Plague were all purchased from AMERICAN TYPE CULTURE CORPORATION while there was a Bush in Office in the White House. So, your point while valid, is misleading as it is clear from the article you cite what the Russians appear to have done was simply to help make the production of Weapons Grade "Product" more effective.

------

So, Dio:

You use the sale of cultures to condemn Bush.

You use the lack of WMD finds to condemn Bush.

Make up your mind...did he have them, or did he not?

Either way...you lied.

He had them prior to the Gulf War 1.
Thier programs were introduced to them by the CIA and funded by the US government.
They were either destroyed or lost during the devastation of the GW1 and the subsequent bombing for the next 10 years after.
Saddam did not want the UN or the US snooping around thier country looking for anything. They wanted a stop to the harassment and the foriegners off thier soil.
Bush knew this
and he lied.
so now there is no WMD
and many civillians and soldiers are dead.
And the ministry of oil is safe.

"They were either destroyed or lost during the devastation of the GW1 and the subsequent bombing for the next 10 years after."

Then why didn't Saddam state this in the farcical report he submitted to the UN?

You people just can't get your story straight, can you? In you mad rush to condemn Bush, you forget inconvenient details, distort facts, and outright lie. And everything you did to oppose the war simply supported Saddam.

Your side lost.

"Your side lost."

Their side always loses. Against all odds, they are the have-nots. On paper, they shouldn't lose: they are white, middle-class, usually male, usually have some college education. But they can't make it. They work menial jobs. Aren't able to attain a vocation that they find interesting. All day, they see successful people and it angers them. People who make more money and/or people who work at something they are passionate about and find intellectually stimulating. They lash out. Fantasize about an economic system where they aren't losers. But where everybody is equal. Nobody would be able to tell that they are the losers.

So they have this sounding board, this forum. Like farting in the wind, most people don't notice them. Sometimes the public smells their stench, when they dress in black, cover their faces, and throw bricks through storefront windows (often the same coffeeshop chain where they work). But most of the time, they are invisible.

I have noticed a peculiar phenomenon. ' Success' is dependent upon a few criteria.
1. Ability to compromise your moral standards to fit the needs of the structure in which you operate.
2. Willingness to reveal information about your fellow workers to gain
favor with the higher echelons.
3. A total disregard toward the truth.

The qualities together with the slightest amount of low cunning, will indeed insure a successful business career until your services aren't require anymore. These individuals seem to rise like scum to the top of the pond cutting off the light and air until the health of the pond suffers. Forget about competence or loyalty or work ethic.
Look at the chump in the white house.

No wonder you're afraid of success. With a perverse definition like that, who can blame you?

My definition of success is making enough money to support myself and my family (not relying on one's parents or handouts from strangers -- charity or welfare), and spending my 9-5 time doing something I enjoy and find intellectually fulfilling. Simple as that. In fact, your three points above have absolutely nothing to do with it. Where did you get perverse ideas like that?!

By spending over 20 yrs in the manufacturing/technology private enterprise.

for my curosity, what do you do to bring in income?

Just because those bad people said so, doesn't mean you have to live your life like that. Being successful is much broader than trying to fit in with the bad boys at work.

That's for sure.

...the more they remain the same.

The Shills would just love to trap me in a false dichotomy.
You're not good enough or smart enough to make it stick davie.
The only thing that you have proven is that when I have made
an error I will own up and accept responsibility for my errors.

A. The fact that I mad the statement that the Biowarfare
cultures sold to Saddam under the Regime of Reagan
and Bush I were American sourced is not proof of his
having them at the time Duhbya began his War Crimes
Rampage.


As usual absent facts to back your position you attempt
to distort and discredit those who have flayed your position.

B. Bush claimed at the time of his illegal Crime against Humanity
that he KNEW Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction.
He asserted that we had solid intelligence that PROVED IT.
That means he should have known exactly where they were at
in order to justify the use of deadly force resulting in thousands
of civilian casualties.
That also means that upon completion of the initial massacre
that he should have been able to order his flunkies to
take his other flunkies the in-bedded Presstitutes
right up to the Sites for a Glorious Photo Op to prove his
masculinity and rightness.
He did not.
This means he COULD NOT. Because if they existed it was the
one thing that would justify his attack and murder of several thousand people.
Again he did not. Absent without leave is any evidence vindicating
the Bush Junta's claims.
None, Nada, Zero, Zip, Nyet, Nein, No supporting evidence of any kind.
It would not matter now if somebody stumbled over a canyon
full of banned weaponry.
It is clear and obvious to any objective viewer of events that BUSH LIED.

LET ME REPEAT THAT: B-U-S-H L-I-E-D!!!!!

Anyone who attempts now to assert otherwise is either a Suck-up of an apologist,
a Paid Shill, a moral Coward unwilling to accept the truth,
or a COMPLETE SUCKER - BRAIN DEAD BEYOND BELIEF.

You have no evidence, no credible witnesses, and no case.

Your position is logically and morally bankrupt.

BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED.
BUSH LIED, CHILDREN DIED.
BUSH LIED, WOMEN DIED.
BUSH LIED, MEN DIED.
BUSH LIED, AND OUR LOYAL SOLDIERS DIED.

BUSH IS A PROVEN LIAR.
CHENEY IS A PROVEN LIAR.
WOLFOWITZ IS A PROVEN LIAR.
RUMSFELD IS A PROVEN LIAR.
PERLE IS A PROVEN LIAR.

I will forgo any attempt to ridicule you. While I do like pungent
one liners I am not so cruel as to rub your nose in the lies
which you have either been tricked into believing or are paid to believe.
You are the guardian of your own conscience and honor.
You are responsible for your actions and for the actions of
those whom you support.

BUSH LIED, AND TOO MANY PEOPLE DIED. It really is that simple.

911 - What Really Happened?

"B. Bush claimed at the time of his illegal Crime against Humanity
that he KNEW Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction."

This statement is the end of your argument. It's a false statement. There was no "illegal Crime (redundant by the way) against Humanity". That being the case, everything that follows it is baseless.

Your lies are tiresome.

Your histrionics are embarrassing.

And your support of tyrants is monstrous.

...as always a tiresome twit.

You prove nothing and then act as though you invented the wheel.

"LET ME REPEAT THAT: B-U-S-H L-I-E-D!!!!!

Anyone who attempts now to assert otherwise is either a Suck-up of an apologist,
a Paid Shill, a moral Coward unwilling to accept the truth,
or a COMPLETE SUCKER - BRAIN DEAD BEYOND BELIEF. "

frescaw you do nothing but embarass yourself and reveal yourself as an apologist
for War Crimes.

You know as well as I do that an unprovoked war of agression contravenes the Nuremberg Codes
and is a War Crime - A Crime against humanity.

How do you justify to yourself your continued defense of evil?

BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED. It really is that simple.

...to assert otherwise is either a Suck-up of an apologist,
a Paid Shill, a moral Coward unwilling to accept the truth,
or a COMPLETE SUCKER - BRAIN DEAD BEYOND BELIEF."

You really believe that, don't you?

Wow...you're the first magalomaniac I've ever met.

You are so closed-minded, so arrogant, so pompous, you cannot belive someone can look at the same data and come to a different conclusion.

Well, everybody, we can just stop this discussion now, because DIO HAS SPOKEN. As a matter of fact, all IMC needs to have is just Dio making his pornouncements; no commentary necessary. Unless you'd like everyone to post how awesome they think you are. Yeah, I think you'd like that.

Get this and get it good, Dio. You do not know everything. Your caps-lock pronouncements are tiresome. You have a couple of butt-kissers in here, but I am definitely not one of them. You claim you want to provoke discussion and thought, then when someone disagrees with you, he's, let's see: "a Suck-up of an apologist,
a Paid Shill, a moral Coward unwilling to accept the truth,
or a COMPLETE SUCKER - BRAIN DEAD BEYOND BELIEF."

Yeah...it sounds like you really want some discussion. You don't want debate; you want (more) sycophants.

You're a pompous, arrogant, closed-minded little Napoleon.

And you're boring.

"Come up with different conclusions."
One working brain required. We can't all be on the government payroll.

...that despite davie's whining and blustering he is incapable of mustering a sound counter argument.

So, davie if you disagree with me show how my argument is in error.

The Bush Junta asserted that they had PROOF of the existence of WMD®.

Colin Powell got up in front of the U.N. and delivered a badly written Lie.

The Weapons Inspectors described the leads given by the U.S. Gov. as "Trash".

No banned Weapons were found by the Inspectors.

No evidence has ever been produced by the Bush Junta.

Despite over a month of scouring the country frantically searching for weapons the Bush Junta has come up empty handed.

However, remember BUSH KNEW - and had solid "Intelligence" before the conquest.

No Weapons have been found or can be proven through any credible evidence.

BUSH LIED.

He sent our loyal Soldiers, Marines, Navy, and Airman to die for a LIE.

His war has resulted in the near total destruction of Iraqi infrastructure. Baghdad is still without power.

Thousands of Years of Archaeologic Treasures have been looted and/or destroyed. This is a Crime against Humanity.

Thousands of innocent Iraqi Civilians have died.

Because of the destruction of Infrastructure many more, perhaps thousands, will die.

The countryside is a radiologic disaster from the DU Waste.

Australia has already admitted that their soldiers are suffering from DU exposure.

What you support is a lie, and a deadly one at that.

You may rail at me all you want, but it is your own anguish at supporting and defending a lie that speaks.

May G-d have mercy on your soul.

BUSH LIED, MANY MANY PEOPLE DIED. It is that simple, and that horrible.

And if Bush were so sinister as to lie about WMD's, he would have made sure that
they were there, whether they were ever "really" there or not. People who are that
way and who are that powerful don't miss a big detail like that when covering their lies.

...if people buy. However, according to a breaking story on Al Martin's Web Site a Pentagon Whistleblower, in fear for her life, has come forward stating that there was a team inserted into Iraq to plant "evidence" of WMD®. However, they were killed by "friendly fire" before they could.

How ironic.

If this source were in fear for her life for coming forward with such earth-shattering information, why would she come forward to some website nobody has heard of, rather than the NY Times or Washington Post?

It's so easy for these people on their fly-by-night websites to make up stories. Do you ever notice how they never name sources?

Al Martin is not a fly-by-night operation. He is a Retired Naval Officer
and a former member of, as he puts it, the Bush Crime Family.

Would you like to play again?

Please insert 25 Cents.

Tilt.

BUSH LIED, AND MANY PEOPLE DIED. It really is that simple.

You need more than one witness. You need at minimum two, and you need all of them to be telling the exact same story. And that's just barely scratching the surface of what you would need to make a case.

Besides, people who intend on planting WMD's have backup plan B & C & D & E........... Covering up THE BIG LIE is not something that can be left to chance.

...that the Bush Junta was bright, just evil.


BUSH LIED, MANY PEOPLE DIED. It really is that simple.

Why not come forward to the NY Times, Washington Post, Time, or Newsweek?

If you fear for your life, you'd try to maximize publicity.

...something worth paying attention to you would not have to keep repeating it.

UH, yeah and go to the FBI with reports about corruption in their ranks. ROFL!

Slime, Newspeak, and the New Yuck Times are corrupt. Why go to someone already corrupt?
It's a good way to get whacked before you can speak.


BUSH LIED, MANY PEOPLE DIED. It really is that simple.

You steal from me again, you sponge. I believe it was I who called you arrogant and pompous first (not to mention ignorant!) Now I see you using the same words on someone else days later. What a joke! Need anymore ideas, Davey? I'm always here for your vocabulary needs.

Ask me what happens when you expose an FBI sting aimed at disrupting non-violent dissent by arresting peace protestors in a fake march sponsored, led, and executed by the FBI and it's BS henchman. Add the NSA, Park Police, Coast Guard, SFPD and CHPs to the equation, and you get 33 arrests on the Golden Gate Bridge. But they didn't get ALL the protestors. Someone escaped to tell. And that someone is now under survelliance 24/7, 365. All of this persons family and friends have been caught in the Fed net since then, and all have been used to try and entrap this person. Yet the person remains free, despite daily attempts to frame, entrap and enrage them.

This person was slandered by the Feds after the sting was uncovered. They said the person was a snitch for the Feds. When that didn't work, they put the word out that the person was a drug dealer. When that didn't work, they said a pimp. When that didn't work, they came up with child molester. All of these set-ups were bolstered by attempts to plant 'evidence', record 'illegal behavior' and enticement through others.

To list all the things the authorities have tried on this person would take me hours of typing. Needless to say, whistleblowers pay a high price. However, sacrifice is often required from those committed to justice and human rights.

The story is with Al Martin for a good reason. Other reporting organizations have
standards, like actually being able back up your stories. Or, as in the case of
the NYT, cleaning house of those who lie so as to try and regain your reputation.

Al Martin could make-up whatever he wants and present it as fact. Who's
going to go after him? He's an unknown with an agenda. Not exactly
someone whose reports to stake your life upon.

'Who's going after him'? $hit! If exposes the truth, every capitalist pig in the country will be on his @$$! Only f*cks with immunity from prosecution/persecution don't worry about the payback for telling the truth.

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' - George Orwell

"If (he) exposes the truth, ...)

Big IF. Big, big IF. Big giant hugh enormous IF. Really, really, really, really, ................. big IF.

Don't hold your breath.

On second thought, DO!!!!!

...for exposing lies these days. Seems like all the White House CAN do is lie...