The government does not want successful people, doing their own street vendoring or entrepreneurship. They want you working for them or a big corporation, ones that the government has under their thumb. The real revolution, which the most radicals have not thought about, is getting the State out of our lives. Taxes should be voluntary, force is immoral. Why does the State act like a common criminals. Why does the State want us deprendent on them, sick and poor and miserable? If you make money, they will go after you. They have so much power and money now that they can afford to put cameras everywhere, tracking our every move and getting every last penny. Government is just a gang of thieves, stealing from the real workers, the real people, the entrepreneurs and street vendors and others that want to live without government force.

Help Starve A Feeding Bureaucrat

Make Money, Not War

For more on government abuses, check out Alex Jones (www.infowars.net)

You've got it all wrong; government does not control corporations; they control the government. The Libertarian Party should really call itself the Authoritarian Party. The only kind of autoritarianism it oppeses is government authoritarianism, failing or at least pretending to fail to see the myriad of authoritarians that make life miserable for most people - bosses, employers, spouses, abusive parents, landlords, local cops, religious fundamentalists, private schools where physical assaults on students and religious/"patriotic" indoctrination by religious loonies is common.

As for small businesses, they tend to grow into big ones, or at least the "winners" in the cut-throat competition do. The Ralph's Market chain was, only ten decades ago, a small neighborhood store actuall called Ralph's Market. There is no point in romanticizing small busineeses. They are often more reactionary than their corporate counterparts. They fought child labor laws more fiercely, and still fight against the minimum wage and the most basic protections for workers' safety. Many of them are parasites in low income communities, encouraging people whose lives are already miserable to forget about their troubles for a while with beer or wine.

In the US, the most priveleged imperialist nation on earth, most people are far more likely to be victims of local tyrants like cops and landlords than they are of "Federal bureaucrats." At least entities like OSHA and the various government bodies that investigate child abuse put some minimal brakes on the tyrants of this world. Libertarians want "liberty" for the exploiters, the batterers, the thieves and the sweat-shop operators. They are frauds - as fraudulent as other pro=capitalist groups. A century an a half ago they would have been defending the "liberty" of Southerners to own slaves and factory owners to employ eight-year olds and work their fathers to death with 12 hour workdays and 7 day workweeks. Maybe it is no coincidence that one of the authors of the racist and classist Bell Curve is a libertatian.

-

You've got it all wrong; government does not control corporations; they control the

government.-

Did you mean that, and I state my own convictions, is that

it's the other way around, corporations control the government?-

You've got it all wrong; government does not control corporations; they control the

government.-

Did you mean that, and I state my own convictions, is that

it's the other way around, corporations control the government?

Because, if true (and it is, of course) we live in the

sweet dream world the germans were dreaming in 1938.

What the hell happened to my post? Let's try again.

ops

-

You've got it all wrong; government does not control corporations; they control the government.-

Did you mean that, and I state my own convictions, is that

it's the other way around, corporations control the government?-

...since many of the families in the inner circle of Power in this country were big supporters of Hitler and the Third Reich.

Take for Example Prescott Bush. Banker to the Third Reich.

Convicted of 3 Counts of "Trading With The Enemy".

He's not the only example but I love bringing it up because it is well documented and drives the Trolls berserk.

You bet I mean it - and no amount of libertarian clap-trap is going to cover up that basic reality.

Business - big and small - financed Hitler in Germany. And don't forget about the fantastic profits that IBM made selling the Nazis pre-computer data collection machines which they used to identify Jews and send them to the death camps. Hitler, like Pinochet, did many of the things that libertarians demand - such as abolishing limitations on work hours and regulations that protected workers' safety.

Upon this point we agree.

Really doesn't matter what form of social structure

we use to care for ourselves and our citizens, I think

it relies on an informed politic.

To un tangle this choke knot we need to understand how

it's tied and by whom.

Without suspicious public light and involvement, the beast

grows like a blackberry bush. It needs constant trimming

by conscious and concerned people who are given the forum to

view the situation for themselves.

This is the great fear the ruling class has. Loss of information control.

... in the Libertarian position. It not simply that Work Hour rules and "protection laws" be abolished.

There are really two factors:

1. These laws generally have been rigged to benefit the company from the get go. The Politicians are bought off and supply the neccessary loopholes.

2. That with strict laws on liability allowing workers to sue employers for their actions, or inactions, the system becomes self policing because the Companies do not want to be sued into bankruptcy.

And a third not directly related is that Libertarians are not opposed to Unionization - they are opposed to government interference in the right of Companies and Workers to negotiate to a position of equilibrium between company needs and worker needs.

I could go into more detail but those I think suffice to give a thumbnail sketch of a frequently misunderstood position.

I can't imagine a less "nuanced" ideology than that of the libertarians. It calls for a return to 19th century British liberalism - anyone who wants to know how that worked should read the novels of Charles Dickens or the numerous scholarly works on how the working class and the masses in general lived in 19th century Britain. Hardly nuanced, Libertarianism is capitalist ideology expressed in its crudest form.

Anyone who lives in the real world knows that it is not possible to organized unions in any area but skilled trades, crafts and professions without government protections such as the Wagner Act. Otherwise, yellow-dog contracts, firing workers at will for mentioning the word union even when not on the job, and other vicious practices would make it impossible. Look into labor history and see what organizers like Walter Reuther faced in the 1920's and 1930's faced and you will see what I mean. Actually, I am being too kind to the libertarians; they want to go back not to the 1930's but to the 1830's.

...missing the point. Yes all the abuses you cite did occurr. However, they also had Government Connivance to be able to continue suppressing the Working People.

The actions against the industrial abuses could just as easily have been solved by passing laws granting workers greater rights in suing and recovering for damages from their employers.

You have to start digging into the nitty gritty a bit - just one off of the top of my head was with the Creation of the Federal Rail Road Administration (sold as a curb on abuses of the Rail Road Industry) - one of the more interesting documents to surface was a letter from the first head of the RRA to Old man Carnegie, if memory serves, commenting to the effect that "this should placate the opponents of abuses in the industry".

The history of Government Regulation is largely a history of Government Corruption.

Yes laws are needed to protect workers from abuse - but with strict liability penalties, and no government intervention in favor of industry, Workers and Unions can protect themselves.

Big Government almost inevitably winds up in bed with industry. The FDA is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Phamaceutical Industry. Government regulation is always sold with a Patina of "helping the common man" when frequently the real effect is to protect corporations from liability for their criminal acts and getting the Public to pay the damages.

Big Bureauacracies act first in their own interest and then maybe in the interest of others.

History does not support your position.

And Libertarianism is about Liberty not ever more government "here to help us".

Trouble in Paradise, gentlemen?

You'll never get the revolution off the ground at this rate.

...the grownups are having a discussion.

I don't have a room, as I live under a rock.

Someone out ther has absolutely no cojones.

Oh, and Diogones...who aksed ya?

Ha ha ha ha!

I did not post the above comment. Stop using my handle, you liberal towelhead.

He whines about people making fun of his silly nickname but deals almost exclusively in slams and innuendo. No facts.

Would you like some Cheese davie baby?

"He's not the only example but I love bringing it up because it is well documented and drives the Trolls berserk."

Why should that drive even the staunchest Bush fan berserk. Who cares if his Granfather was Hitler himself. So what?

I doubt that you're able to drive that many people "nuts" with this comment. No more than to point out Joe Kennedy's support of the Nazis.

If that's your "smoking gun" you better keep digging.

Bush, et.al are proving to be pretty bad nazis since they sure do agree on supporting Israel come hell or high water.

Somehow, isreal was to turn into the new nazi's...

But that could never happen.

"Somehow, isreal was to turn into the new nazi's...

But that could never happen."

I agree. Now if we talk about the tendencies of the Arab world we have a whole different ballgame.

Please consider enlisting in the Zionist army. You sound as though you have as mush hatred for Arabs as I do. You'd make a good killing machine.

Please consider enlisting in the Zionist army. You sound as though you have as much hatred for Arabs as I do. You'd make a good killing machine.