I'm just curious. Having spent a fair amount of time today, sparring with several of you, I have to wonder why it's soooo hard for some of you to accept that the Iraqi people are HAPPY.
I'll say again, that I don't have the "flag-waving" pic that so many of you seem to require before moving on to the more obvious evidence. But, really, how can any of you deny what is happening in Baghdad right now? I can't believe that ALL of you who are having trouble admitting that there are celebrations going on, actually believe that ALL of the coverage is staged and faux. And I can't understand why, given this overwhelming evidence of celebration, that you can't be happy for the Iraqis. Is it that important for you to be right?
All along you've all said this was all about oil. Given that I think that's a false claim, let's just pretend I agree with you. That this war was fought so that we could insure an oil resource in Iraq. Are you all actually saying that you would willingly trade Iraqi freedom, which is obviously being born as we speak, for the knowledge that "big oil" was foiled. Would you honestly rather Bush and his alleged "OIL CRONIES" take one on the chin in return for another year, month or day of Sadam's brutal treatment of his own people?
I find it hard to believe that any of you are that much of a monster.
So why then all the angst at admitting that we have freed these people and they are ECSTATIC?
Surely, we all know that people on both sides died in order for this to happen. That, unfortuantely, is what is almost always required in order to bring down a monster. Sadam's legacy will be the deaths that occurred in order to rid him of power.

The reaction to the news of the day from some of you is really unbelievable. It's sad actually.

Quote: "I'm just curious. Having spent a fair amount of time today, sparring with several of you, I have to wonder why it's soooo hard for some of you to accept that the Iraqi people are HAPPY. "

Question: Are you referring to the dead Iraqis or just the homeless and wounded ones?

"Are you referring to the dead Iraqis or just the homeless and wounded ones?
"

Do you really believe this? Honestly?

The dead are not happy.

So, what you're saying is, is that either there are NO Iraqi's celebrating OR there are but, they too, are callously forgetting those that are dead and wounded. Is this correct?

I do not dispute the fact that Iraqis are happy.

But I am just outraged that America's role in the killings of thousands of Iraqis under Saddam Hussein's rule in the 1980s has been downplayed to a point where people don't even consider it to be an issue.

They were accomplices to murder. They are war criminals.

Being American does not mean you are above the law.

I would appreciate a genuine and valid response.

The Iraqis are happy now, but once the U.S. occupation is in place, there will increased terrorism and tension in Baghdad. The US regime will be no different from Sadam.

In my previous post
I refer to US officials in the Reagan and Bush sr. administrations and not the american population as being accomplices to murder.

The american population of course had no fucking idea what the fuck was goin on outside of their home towns after all.

jus wished to clarify

Is it really over for him? Is he happy? Will Haliburton be rebuilding his arms?

Shame on every damn one of us!

I am truly ashamed to be an american and everything it supposedly stands for.

"I do not dispute the fact that Iraqis are happy.

But I am just outraged that America's role in the killings of thousands of Iraqis under Saddam Hussein's rule in the 1980s has been downplayed to a point where people don't even consider it to be an issue.

They were accomplices to murder. They are war criminals.

Being American does not mean you are above the law.

I would appreciate a genuine and valid response."

Ok then. Believe it or not, I accept some of your point. I fully realize America's role in the machinations of plenty of brutal regimes. Our propping up of scumbags like the Saudi royal family, for instance is an adomination.
However, I also realize that, like it or not, sometimes we must get in bed with scumbags in order to fight greater enemies. Funding Afganistan muslims in the fight against the USSR was necessary at that time. Unfortunately the Taliban springs up. But to say that that is our fault is not valid. To say that the crimes of OBL are our crimes is ridiculous. Of course we play a role in it, as we have with Sadam. But we are not responsible for the treatment he meted out to his own people. Just because we are American does not mean we are responsible for everyone's crimes.
I have never said nor believed that we were in this war for the sole sake of the Iraqi people. But their freedom is a very valuable product of this war. I believe that we have to defend ourselves against those who have every resource and rationale for abetting, in the future, those that attacked us on 9-11. Say what you will, but the world is better off today than it was yeaterday beacause of what we've done to Sadam. Regardless of what we've done in the past, we are obligated to try to do the right thing in the present and future. and I dismiss any notion, categorically, that because we've aided Sadam in the past, we shouldn't have toppled him now.

... is that we're only getting a limited picture of what's going on over there. We may see happy Iraqi's on CNN, Fox and other corporate media, but just last week journalists were reporting "indifference and outright contempt" from the so-called liberated. You see a few hundred Iraqis celebrating with their invaders on the boob tube and you honestly believe the whole population is pleased?

Even the president has said that this thing isn't over yet, not by a long shot. So before you start making blanket claims about the jubilance of the emancipated, perhaps you should wait until the dust has settled.

You're right punkerbob. I'm just wondering why so few people will even admit that there's celebration going on.

Admit there is a celebration going on? It's hard to "admit" something that is not happening. Did you mean "lie" about the celebrations going on? Why bother, idiots like you who believe anything have encouraged the media to lie about it as it is. And why? Because no one questions them. Fresca, are you going to follow the rest of the sheep off the cliff, too? What about going into Syria now.....they are saying that Saddam/followers of Saddam have fled there.

Now...can you tell us about the WMD that were supposedly in Iraq? Give me a break with the response about us just getting there. Like we can't find them? You are an idiot.

I'll put you down as "not believing a single word of it" in regards to the evidence of Iraqis celebrating. Thanks for your time.

I just received this from a list:

"While networks around the world are showing pictures of jubilant Iraqis, albeit in areas that have suffered most under his regime including the very poor Saddam city and the Kurds in the North, the International Red Cross says that the situation in downtown Baghdad is another story.

In a phone interview from the centre of Baghdad, Red Cross representatives said that the situation is very hostile and that the American forces are "shooting at anything that moves", including one of their own convoys. At the time of this filing, the IRC have been unable to evacuate one of their seriously injured colleagues which may prove fatal.

The streets are scattered with casualties and US soldiers are firing at anyone that tries to evacuate them. The IRC says they are shooting at their clearly marked vehicles and preventing treatment of the wounded is not only against the Geneva Convention but "unacceptable".

The situation in the city is extremely critical. Hospitals are reported to be overwhelmed by the inflow of war-wounded patients and some are without water or power. The water supply for Baghdad is becoming an issue of major concern following reports that the Qanat raw water pumping station in the north of the city has also stopped functioning. "

"I just received this from a list:

"While networks around the world are showing pictures of jubilant Iraqis, albeit in areas that have suffered most under his regime including the very poor Saddam city and the Kurds in the North, the International Red Cross says that the situation in downtown Baghdad is another story.

In a phone interview from the centre of Baghdad, Red Cross representatives said that the situation is very hostile and that the American forces are "shooting at anything that moves", including one of their own convoys. At the time of this filing, the IRC have been unable to evacuate one of their seriously injured colleagues which may prove fatal.

The streets are scattered with casualties and US soldiers are firing at anyone that tries to evacuate them. The IRC says they are shooting at their clearly marked vehicles and preventing treatment of the wounded is not only against the Geneva Convention but "unacceptable".

The situation in the city is extremely critical. Hospitals are reported to be overwhelmed by the inflow of war-wounded patients and some are without water or power. The water supply for Baghdad is becoming an issue of major concern following reports that the Qanat raw water pumping station in the north of the city has also stopped functioning. "
"

Thanks. I'm open to checking this out. Since this is a dispatch from the IRC it should be very easy to substantiate.

Hmmm, if I survived depleted uranium, cluster bombs on civilian installations, shooting of women and children at checkpoints, overcrowded bloody human remains at hospitals, food and water threats, burning oilfields( one of like two things I can unequivocally find support to attribute to Sadam), wait, what else can i think of, looting, shooting, being called diseased, bombing of news sources known to be in the area and opposed to the war, being held in large barbed wire concentration camps as an Iraqi POW without water food or shoes, U.S. chemical sales to Sadam, U.S. shaking hands with him afterward, birth defects, and all the other crap that comes with war..............If I suvived that, I'd celebrate.
But I'd celebrate more when the Americans got the fuck out of there. I'd say thanks but no thanks you radiation poisoning fuckwads. The soldiers will too when you see their mangled born on the four of july style bodies coming home.
one captain who is serving his third tour said "I can't enjoy burnt out bodies and dead children, this is a dirty business, I don't rejoice in any of it."
He has military honor of truth.

What the fuck are you going on about you dumb cunt. Your gibberish is inane and your entire being is irrelevant.. Shut up, get your head out of your ass and read a book.
lol. What an ass.

The vanquished populations usually always welcome the victorious soldiers who are carrying guns. They want to live. Not all Iraqis are terrorists.

In private, who knows what they are thinking. Living in a climate of fear must cause one to hide their thoughts, much like what most of the flag waving knuckleheads want to instill here.

The sadness and grief is a legacy we will
share down here on our own streets.

They're about as significant as a roach on the wall.

I just come here to gloat. They're a lot of fun to piss off! Like a wind-up toy. Wind'em up and watch 'em go!

head down in a still warm pile of gore, feasting.
Good boy,

by your argument, the Taliban should have been left alone. After all it was Al-Qaida who attacked the US not the Taliban. Just because Al-Qaida were operating in Afghanistan doesnt make the Taliban responsible for its crimes right?

As for the issue of greater threats, it is true that during the time of American support of Iraq, Iran was hostile to the US. But go even further back, history shows that the US supported yet another brutal dictator - the Shah of Iran. Because of his "progressive" and vehemently "anti-communist" stance, he was favoured by the US in spite of his dismal human rights record. In addition, he guaranteed the US an uninterrupted pipeline to cheap oil. The fact that he was hated by his own people and was responsible for the deaths of thousands during his many purges was irrelevant to the US government.

At the time, the US was paranoid that the world was being taken over by communists. Thats fair enough, but it is a terrible injustice to sacrifice the freedom, well-being and even lives of others (in this case Iranians) in order to calm one's own perceived fears.

In spite of this history, the Americans still look questioningly at why Iranis are at least somewhat bitter towards the US.

But the point remains that the US repeatedly sacrificed the freedom, justice and well-being of others (the very things it claims to champion) simply to calm its own fears.

Not only that, brutal dictatorships and genocidal regimes are still being supported by the US today (Saudi Arabia and Israel among others).

Yet America still prances around with its false notions of righteousness.

Why cannot America, with its immense military, actually champion human rights worldwide REGARDLESS of their political implications.

I personally think human lives are worth more than cheap gasoline and cheap products. Somewhere deep within its heart, I'm sure the US feels the same way

Fun fun fun till daddy takes our T-bird away!

Comparing me screwing with liberals to vampirism!

HAR!

And I do not oppose the overthrowing of Saddam Hussein. I just oppose it under the grounds that the US is 100% absolutely clean, innocent, pure virgin in this whole mess. All I want, is at least a public admission of its role in supplying the chemical and biological weapons (the very ones used on the kurds) and a promise to uphold human rights in the future at any expense. If it would admit to its past mistakes, and actually LEARN from them, then this war that is going on would be fine. but as you know, most americans feel as if the US has NEVER EVER done nething wrong and its policies should be mimicked by EVERY1 EVERYWHERE etc.

Caducado: "I have to wonder why it's soooo hard for some of you to accept that the Iraqi people are HAPPY. "


...and this I know to be so,

'cause FOX 'n' CNN told me so.....

So you admit that you lefties are full of shit. It's not all about the oil now is it? Thanks for the admission.

First of all, thanks for the actual discussion. I appreciate it.

Look, you and I will both be dead and gone before the MAJORITY of Americans even understand much less admit the misdeads of American foreign policy. Discussions like we're having are quite the anomoly worldwide. Most people don't care to think about this stuff at all. So an admission of American wrongdoing nationwide, as a requirement for this war is not going to happen.

I'll agree, as I did before, that we, like all nations of any sort of prominece put our own needs, percieved or real, ahead of others. It's hard to really argue with that but I agree that at times we've been way off the mark. We've allowed our dependance on oil, as I'm sure you'll agree, bind us to some of the most awful scumbags in history. I'm all for cutting all ties to the middle east,(Israel is a whole seperate issue, which is beyond the scope of this post) developing new energy sources and basically forcing them to evolve without our money. Oil companies be damned.
But, that's not going to happen. You know it and I know it. So, we're left with the realization that we need to learn from our mistakes, as you said, and I agree. We also are forced to act in such a way to deal with 9-11 with methods which were unthinkable prior to that.

Finally, let me say this. At the end of the day, we all, well most of us anyway, want the same thing. I want a world where there's no hunger, no war, and no hatred. I want to live in a country that looks out for the world because we are a leader and the world respects led by an administrtaion which is erudite and honest. I just think we disagree on how to get there. I think we need to protect ourselves first and foremost. 9-11 has forced that upon us. Let's hope that this war leads to more lessons learned from our past.,

They are so happy?
Been to Iraq recently, or just been sitting in front of your TV?
Happy for what?
SO happy they are looting thier cities?
So happy that nothing will change in thier country,
just like nothing changed in any of the places the US has invaded.
Please give me some examples
of when the US has invaded a country to "help"
and there has been a complete change in the way the people live.....
Puppet regime changes dont count.
I want to hear how life has changed for the "common man".

Caducado, good post...I don't agree with most of it...but good post....I am sure that we could have a meaningful discussion with both of us coming away unswayed but respectful of the other...

...but you have to admit, trading insults is just a lot more fun!

Let's see...
the "common muslim man" in Bosnia is not being exterminated en masse anymore.

the "common" women, for instance, in Afganistan are not being murdered publicly in the UN built Kabul Soccer Stadium anymore for wearing makeup.

Jews are no longer being gassed in Germany anymore, although there are plenty in Europe who would love to start that up again.

Your precious French "common man" is no longer walking around with his hands in the air, waiting for a Nazi to compliment his choice of Beret.

Is that enough for you?

"Caducado, good post...I don't agree with most of it...but good post....I am sure that we could have a meaningful discussion with both of us coming away unswayed but respectful of the other...

...but you have to admit, trading insults is just a lot more fun!
"
That's the fun alright. There's no one on this board who is anymore vehemently opposed to my views than a few friends of mine, but we go at it, get all worked up and then move on to the D
baseball or something.

But just to keep everything in order...

Fuck you asshole.

So, we hear reports that Iraqis are happy? Hmmm, what is the source? Ah, an embedded reporter found some nice and willing citizen to provide an enthusiastic interview. Great. Are there any other opinions out there? Don't be afraid little child, tell us what YOU think? Can't? Why is that? Don't be afraid of the guys with the guns. You should be used to that by now. Sure they killed your mother and tortured you father, but hey - tell us what you really think? Come on now - don't be afraid. Ah hell, there is no news story here. Anybody out there wanna tell me they are happy? I'll frame your kind words as if it is the only opinion out there and the greatful american public will lap it up like wine. They won't know the difference. They want to believe in this war and they shall. We will just tell them what ever cute story they need to hear so that they will believe that war is great and good. No need to show the blood and pain and terror and anguish that will never go away. What a bummer. People would turn off their TV. They wouldn't believe the truth anyway. Not if we stffed it up their stupid asses.

"So, we hear reports that Iraqis are happy? Hmmm, what is the source? Ah, an embedded reporter found some nice and willing citizen to provide an enthusiastic interview."

Are you for real? Have you absolutely NO access to any of the hundreds of media outlets (coporate, indy and personal), all of which have been showing hours of footage of thousands of Iraqis celebrating . How is it that you managed to miss all that?

STFU, FRESCA.

"I'm just curious. Having spent a fair amount of time today, sparring with several of you, I have to wonder why it's soooo hard for some of you to accept that the Iraqi people are HAPPY. "

The People of of Iraq ? Really ! How many Iraqis were in that square when they pulled down the stature of Saddam Hussein ? No where near as many who fill the trauma wards of Iraqi Hospitals. Why don't you ask all of those people how they feel about about US Forces Toppling Hussein ?

But don't get me wrong there are alot of of people who are very happy about the events that have transpired in the last 24 hours...THEY' RE LOOTING GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS IN BAGHDAD AND BLOWING UP BANK VAULTS IN BASRA IN AN EFFORT TO PICK UP A LITTLE SPENDING CHANGE.

I wish we could have that democracy like that here !

GREAT POST

What can you say?

FUCK YOU, CUNT

THAT'S WHAT I CAN SAY!

I bet you're a fat lesbian, flap-licking cunt sucker

Fresca - These people have already humiliated themselves. You're just rubbing it in.

That's OK, they deserve it.

They're like the guy who designed the Edsel, and then tried to defend it.

error

LOL