I can't say it enough - we need ALLIES, we don't got cash, we don't have political power, we don't have pretty movie stars, and we don't have mailing lists. We need the moral high ground and we need our ALLIES and our ALLIES don't understand property damage - that means dumpsters, tire slashing, regardless of target. Think about - what you gonna do with no allies? Keep on doing your own thing like it has been? And what is the effect on the media - you see it - we worked so freakin hard on this action and we lost any kind of differentiation between police violence and demo violence. The prop. destruction tactic has some benefits and some costs - evaluate them! um OK, err, lessee - if you're wanting folks to understand you, let alone join you, have you thought about DIALOG? Seems like you read the paper cause you're answering some of the misperceptions, so it's not like you're out of the loop. Did you notice how, like, when you burn the dumpsters you get on TV? cool- huh? And while you are on TV the people who aren't destroying property, but are practicing NV CD are getting peaceably arrested, then beat, but no one sees that cause their watching you on TV? You must have seen that. Could you carry on at your OWN action and not poach the hard work that lots of people do? Could you attack police cars that end up being repaired at working people's expense ANOTHER DAY? And if you are going to be around when the puppets are around could you let them STEAL THE SHOW for once. Puppets are doing more to change the culture (which always proceeds social change) and scare the man than any tire-punchin spray paintin paint tossin dumpster burnin. That's why the man arrests puppets and allows you to stand on that burning dumpster with your mask on your face scarin plain folk. Feel me? get it? Don't do it in LA. I appreciate the addition to the diversity of the movement your participation adds, but we got to work together. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE exercise restraint for a few days in LA. All you say about statist - corporatists rings true, just please think strategy. We need to show a DIFFERENCE between how the man comes down and how we do. Your actions are trotted out as examples of misbehavior and do not accurately reflect your OWN message. Smash the state when the puppets aren't around for just this once. We have a lot riding on this, and we are very close to demonstrating a real opening for allies of all sorts to join this movement - we need some space. Do us a big favor and maybe help out with some child care or some radical tree planting actions. Also if you want jail solidarity support which many BB wanted and needed at R2K could you please give us your support information BEFORE

going into the actions? How can we help each other help each other if there's no communication? What's up with that? Also please don't rationalize damaging police property with 1) 'if we disable the cars then we can get away easier so it's a good tactic.' That's not so. And even if it was they don't care, they'd rather just video tape the tires and roll it on TV over and over again tarring NV CD as 'violent'. Talk to me. Get it? 2) 'People of color communities want us to stick it to the man cause we can get away with it and they can't.' I know you didn't say this but I've heard it and it's racist, elitist, and wrong. Poor communities need police - go ask them. please allow some media space for the non-destructives, smash the state the next week - you'll still get press, I'm really sorry BB people got so targeted Aug 1 in the evening. They provoked you, they rode over you, they chose you to provoke. It's just to easy for them to get a reaction. There's too much at stake. Also, best to commit to NV fully and embrace it, cause if you fight fire with fire you better look around and check out where you are - cause this is not the third world. peace -a

Look,

First of all I feel your comments concerning property damaged are anarcho-phobic. You target anarchists as the main people who cause property damage. i think you've been watching the corporate media to much. To my knowledge there are NO anarchist orginizations planning property damage. Second off, where do you get off saying anarchists have random targets for property damage? If you look at the targets they were multi-national corporations that were targeted. I will not tell people what are the right tactics and what are not. I will not tell people to play a part for corporate media so all the rich people think we are good people. This is a war. If you like it or not, this is a war. The target is not people, it is the multi-national corporations that have been murdering people for years. If you want to dance up and down, thats fine, ut for the people taking direct action, either property damage, or peaceful, who are you to tell them they are wrong. What allies do you wish to make?? If you want to make allies with corporate media, good frickin luck. No matter what you do, you will always be the enemy of the people to coporate media. Example: August Collective gives a press conference at the IMC on how the NAAC is not for protest training, and is seperate from the protests. What does the media ask? They asked what we had to say about the property damage in Seattle. A women replied, "Property damage is irrelevent, the NAAC is SEPERATE from the prostests.". What did they do....A little cut and paste ob. They took "Property damage is irrelevant" and thats it. They said that is the August collectives view. As you can see no matter how non-violent you will be, they will always twist it so that you are the "Anarchist Terrorist".

How far will you go! Next you will say the ALF should stop their property damage so they can get in good with media, and make ALLIES. Broken windows can be fixed! These corporations are murdering people ever *#$@ing day, and causing millions in property damages, and you complain about us damaging THEM! The more we dance around and paint a pretty picture on ourselves, the more people are slaughtered in third world countries, because of our "Great Nation". These people need to answer to someone, and they WILL answer to us. They dont think we are serious, then we will show them how serious we are. This is a war, we havent declared it, they have! If we dont act now, then we should pack our bags and leave. Yah your right this isnt a third world country, but I dare you to say that we arent slowly feeling the political oppression that they feel in the third world countries today. The police issued a statement today saying that they will detain anyone wearing a cirled 'A' on their shirt. DAN is being constantly harrassed by the LAPD (every seven minutes!). August Collective is under surveilence by the FBI. We dont need to decrease the pressure, we need to increase it!

Fight the power,

The Idiot

Poor people need the police?

Only someone from the suburbs, someone priveledged, someone horribly arrogant and insensitive and uninformed could bust out with that!

!No se puede creer!

Unbelievable!

What are you a trainer IN?

Making excuses for the cops?

As badly as I don't want to get involved with the pro/anti-anarchist debate, I do have some perspective on this.

The message, the writing, and the leadership of Anarchy is great stuff. I think common people would support alot of it, if they hadn't had the word "Anarchy" drilled into their brains as meaning the same thing as "Chaos".

But, I refuse to believe what we need now is a standup war with the worlds corporations. We need to wage a war on them, I don't doubt that, but not a physical one. As I've said before, even a minor armed uprising in a 3rd world nation looks like World War II compared to the tiny amount of force we could mount against our oppressors. If this were a war on those terms, there would not be a shred left of anarchy or activisim in general by the end of the month, and the American people would thank them for doing it.

Ours is a war of ideology, of public support, of a general people's uprising that involves, well, *the people*, not just a radical splinter group.

How to bring America around? I can't say the singing, dancing, and puppets will do it, but clearly the police seem to think so. I doubt dire warnings of ecological destruction will stir them, as ten years after the fact I still get crap from people who hate the spotted owl because people dared ask that it be saved. The best bet we have is to appeal to them as workers. If all we can do is rid ourselves of the IMF, WTO, and simular organizations that rob us of meaningful local work, and get our government off of the corporate payroll, these things alone would be a massive step toward the world we want to live in.

I was in Philly at the IMC. Every night around midnite I rode back to my hotel on a tourist bus that runs through 'center city' it was almost always empty at that time of night so I had a chance to talk to the driver and the dispatcher during a ten minute layover in front of the a hotel that was filled with Republican delegates. What I came to know was that the driver and the dispatcher did not have a clue what the demonstrations were about. Once I explained (as best as I could) the positions that were held by me(us), they were SUPPORTIVE and GRATEFUL for the work that is being done . I know that corporate media and the police/FBI etc. are impeding our work. However I think that if we could send out 'talking brigades' to get out the message it might make a difference. I think it would be a good idea to not waste time or effort on people who want to argue. just work on being informative to people who will be willing to listen. A number of times in Philly I was thanked for sharing my point of view and felt like I had won over a least one more person who would now look favorably on our actions which is perhaps the first step toward involvement.

Much thanks to the originator of this thread, and the previous two responses. The main point I'd like to add is that, while anarchist tactics and philosophies are most certainly informing the decentralized, nonhierarchiccal, autonomous protests that have characterized this nascent movement, the word anarchy, for most people and even many activists, has unfortunately been linked to the Black Bloc groups who make plainly illogical arguments that destruction of property is not violent behavior.

What is lost among the sounds of slashed tires, breaking glass and overturned dumpsters is the fact that there are many anarchists who agree with the philosophy of aggressive nonviolence. Anarcho-pacifism is a legitimate, historical strain of the anarchist philosophy, and we believe in direct action (NOT liberal reformism) as the other movement demonstrators do.

Taking some of the arguments of the "Message to Circle A (Reponse)":

>To my knowledge there are NO anarchist organizations planning property damage [in LA].

Your knowledge is limited – some groups are, and have done so in 2 out of the 3 major demos so far. Even if Black Blocs do not do any destruction, their refusal to put aside this tactic makes it a possibility. We will see next week what happens.

>This is a war. If you like it or not, this is a war.

Not for us – for us it’s a revolution, where the tactics match the outcome we desire. Any objective view will see that your agititation is not moving us any closer to a better society; if anything, it is holding us back because so many millions disagree with your approach. Anarcho-pacifists seek not to destroy, but transform, beginning with minds. Without changing hearts and minds, no external, physical damage to the structure of this incredibly well-armed and well-financed system of death are meaningless.

>What allies do you wish to make??

We need the people who are being assaulted, who you so righteously claim to be fighting for, to join us in whatever way they can. Fringe groups are laughable without popular backing. We all should know that, as I'm sure we've all experienced the marginalization.

>These corporations are murdering people ever *#$@ing day, and causing millions in property damages, and you complain about us damaging THEM!

How on earth are you damaging them? Try building a boycott. Damaging private property does not harm the elite; costs are socialized and passed on to the consumer. Damage to public propoerty likewise goes to the taxpayer. That's simply no way to advance a revolution.

Finally, although this is a separate argument, for those who wear masks (or circle A's): hopefully you will have noticed by now that the police arrest whoever they like. Anarchopacifists are aware of COINTELPRO, too. Masks do not offer protection. They do, in fact, alienate people. Your best protection is not solidarity amongst each other, but mass solidarity with all demonstrators and people on the sidelines, wearing no special uniform and not separating yourself from anyone.

Of course, putting these thoughts out there probably will be like talking to a brick wall. But we nonviolent anarchists (and the many other folks participating in this movement) ask for unity, even as we continue to tolerate your tactics among demonstrations opened to the masses. Our best asset is our strength in unity -- strength that's fractured by Black Blocs providing the images the corporate media desire and regular people fear.

Peace!

Much thanks to the originator of this thread, and the previous two responses. The main point I'd like to add is that, while anarchist tactics and philosophies are most certainly informing the decentralized, nonhierarchiccal, autonomous protests that have characterized this nascent movement, the word anarchy, for most people and even many activists, has unfortunately been linked to the Black Bloc groups who make plainly illogical arguments that destruction of property is not violent behavior.

What is lost among the sounds of slashed tires, breaking glass and overturned dumpsters is the fact that there are many anarchists who agree with the philosophy of aggressive nonviolence. Anarcho-pacifism is a legitimate, historical strain of the anarchist philosophy, and we believe in direct action (NOT liberal reformism) as the other movement demonstrators do.

Taking some of the arguments of the "Message to Circle A (Reponse)":

>To my knowledge there are NO anarchist organizations planning property damage [in LA].

Your knowledge is limited – some groups are, and have done so in 2 out of the 3 major demos so far. Even if Black Blocs do not do any destruction, their refusal to put aside this tactic makes it a possibility. We will see next week what happens.

>This is a war. If you like it or not, this is a war.

Not for us – for us it’s a revolution, where the tactics match the outcome we desire. Any objective view will see that your agititation is not moving us any closer to a better society; if anything, it is holding us back because so many millions disagree with your approach. Anarcho-pacifists seek not to destroy, but transform, beginning with minds. Without changing hearts and minds, no external, physical damage to the structure of this incredibly well-armed and well-financed system of death are meaningless.

>What allies do you wish to make??

We need the people who are being assaulted, who you so righteously claim to be fighting for, to join us in whatever way they can. Fringe groups are laughable without popular backing. We all should know that, as I'm sure we've all experienced the marginalization.

>These corporations are murdering people ever *#$@ing day, and causing millions in property damages, and you complain about us damaging THEM!

How on earth are you damaging them? Try building a boycott. Damaging private property does not harm the elite; costs are socialized and passed on to the consumer. Damage to public propoerty likewise goes to the taxpayer. That's simply no way to advance a revolution.

Finally, although this is a separate argument, for those who wear masks (or circle A's): hopefully you will have noticed by now that the police arrest whoever they like. Anarchopacifists are aware of COINTELPRO, too. Masks do not offer protection. They do, in fact, alienate people. Your best protection is not solidarity amongst each other, but mass solidarity with all demonstrators and people on the sidelines, wearing no special uniform and not separating yourself from anyone.

Of course, putting these thoughts out there probably will be like talking to a brick wall. But we nonviolent anarchists (and the many other folks participating in this movement) ask for unity, even as we continue to tolerate your tactics among demonstrations opened to the masses. Our best asset is our strength in unity -- strength that's fractured by Black Blocs providing the images the corporate media desire and regular people fear.

Peace!

You said:

"Of course, putting these thoughts out there probably will be like talking to a brick wall. But we nonviolent anarchists (and the many other folks participating in this movement) ask for unity, even as we continue to tolerate your tactics among demonstrations opened to the masses. Our best asset is our strength in unity -- strength that's fractured by Black Blocs providing the images the corporate media desire and regular people fear."

I really have to question whether or not you are truly an anarchist. Anarchist don't go around saying stuff about Black Blocs "providing the images the corporate media desire..." That's a liberal argument and one that fosters marginalization within the movement. It also displays a misunderstanding of what black blocs do. Most black blocs I've been involved with were nonviolent and had a minimal amount of vandalism. Our movement has been successful so far because it has been tolerant of a variety of tactics. If you prefer anarco-pacificism, then go out and be one excellent anarcho-pacifist. But you have to realize that your way isn't the way for everybody.

Want to scare the shit out of corporate leaders, cops, politicians, and every dumbass that supports them? Do you seriously think that property damage makes them worry? No, it does'nt, it never did. When you destroy shit, they smile at their new opportunity to break the law and get away with it (beat protesters to a pulp). They love to use violence, and they love getting away with it even more. Don't touch anything and don't try to escape violence. STAND YOUR GROUND! Nothing will scare them more than watching a bunch of protesters try to get beat up. You don't have to wreck anything, you don't even have to chant, they will beat the crap out of you just for being there.

I see news footage of protesters screaming and crying at the pain caused by cs gas, pepper spray, batons, rubber bullets, tasers, and bean bags. All you have to do is replace those cries with laughter. Enjoy the pain, smile for the camera when there is blood pooring down your face. Walk directly into rubber bullet fire, grab the pepper spray out of their hands and spray yourself in the eye, try to blow smoke rings with the cs gas, hold your face out in front of a swinging baton. Yes, that's right, try to get hurt, and when you get hurt laugh and enjoy it. Pretend to enjoy the pain, or really enjoy it if your into that kind of thing. Nothing will scare them more than 50,000 masacists dancing in the pepper spray rain storm. If they bring automatic lethal fire arms stand right in front of the gun and stick your finger in the barrel, just like bugs bunny. If they don't put that on the news it will be more than obvious that the news is an untrustworthy source of information, like it isn't already. As long as you don't do anything to prevoke the violence then it will make them look bad, and they will look even worse if you refuse to play martyr by enjoying getting the shit beaten out of you.

Once the world sees that you are willing as ever to get beaten to a pulp just to bring up social issues, they will have a hard time ignoring you. I know it does'nt sound good, but it will make you look much better. The opponents of this movement call us cry babies, whiners, wimps, bleeding heart liberals, jobless losers, freaks, and anything else they can say to make us seem less than human. Show them that you are stronger than they will ever be, show them that they are the weak ones by sitting around getting fat, watching too much TV, bragging about their financial success, dwelling on the time they served in the military, insulting and threatening us with the force of someone they rely on for everything, and believing their protectors (cops) are the strongest power pushers alive, hence allowing their mouths to write checks their butts can't cash. Let's show them how weak their big brother is, let's laugh at the pathetic display of force they show by enjoying the abuse imposed upon us. I cannot go to LA (I don't have any money to pay for transportation), however I hope to smile with bloody teeth here at home; if we ever have any action in this boring town that is; for the cameras that wish to demonize me because I care about poor people.

Should I care about the rich, no, I'm not rich. I kind of have to care about the poor because if I did'nt I would'nt care about myself. If they want to call me a terrorist because I respect my freinds and neighbors more than George W. Bush, I am ready to show them how wrong they are. A terrorist is a coward, that is why they don't show themselves until after they kill someone who has no warning thus no defense, none of us have killed anyone. A terrorist would'nt stand in front of a tank that is threatening to run them down, and a terrorist would'nt stand in front of a fully automatic M-16 that is in the hands of a trained killer. It is time to show the world who the real terrorists are by not being cowardly in any way, and by being the exact opposite, to enjoy pain. Even Colin Powell can't deny us respect if we show that we are tougher than his military buddies ever could be. I am not a crook, or a terrorist, or a coward, or a jobless freak, or a martyr, or a bleeding heart liberal, to the man I am a "Bad Mother Fucker,"-Samuel L. Jackson, Pulp Fiction. I am the global justice movement hear me roar!! And watch Al Gore piss his pants as my roar blows his weak eardrums.

My friend Cmdr. Tofu:

>I really have to question whether or not you are truly an anarchist.

Sir (ma'am?), the essential prerequisite for anarchism is total rejection of the state and all forms of authoritarianism, and promotion of freedom, mutualism, etc. Other elements, like choice of tactics, are flexible.

>Anarchist don't go around saying stuff about Black Blocs "providing the images the corporate media desire..." That's a liberal argument and one that fosters marginalization within the movement.

I think discussions of tactics are crucial if we don't want to get locked into a frozen pattern that makes it easier for the cops to smash us, especially while we are still small.

>Most black blocs I've been involved with were nonviolent and had a minimal amount of vandalism.

That's nice, but the black and the vandalism are two things that do indeed set you apart, and you haven't responded to my main points about these things.

>Our movement has been successful so far because it has been tolerant of a variety of tactics.

Successful to a degree, more than most ignored campaigns, sure, but if we want to really succeed -- make great inroads on getting many more workers and folks to join and actually beginning to change the society -- we need to keep reexamining the tactics and not believe we've achieved tactical nirvana.

>you have to realize that your way isn't the way for everybody.

Sure, but a guy can put his views out there, right? Hey, I've stood with black blocs in DC. I'm tolerant, not one of those who defended the Nike shop windows in Seattle. But I ask you and your friends to seriously consider the merits of my points.

Most things, but NOT everything, is everyone else's (cops, media's, gov't's) fault -- there are things that we can do ourselves to make this movement stronger. Personally, I don't think vandalism -- even violence in self-defense -- is one of them. When more people are on our side and get the drift about the police and the state, maybe then. But I don't think so. Remember the movements of Gandhi and King! (and please don't ridicule everything they accomplished, which is simply to build a major part of the tradition upon which we demonstrate today.)

I was in both Seattle for the WTO protests and in Philly for the Republican Convention. I was not in the black bloc for either, but I was beside them at both events. I feel that each individual should personally and collectively with your affinity groups what actions you will take during a protest. this may also mean making a concentual choice on the spot becuase EACH ACTION IS DIFFERENT.

In Seattle, the media was EXTREMELY harsh towards the protesters well before the windows started breaking at Starbucks. Once the windows broke, they tore into the protesters, much to the delight of the cops. Many people at home understood that the targets were planned (McDonalds, Starbucks, Bank of America, etc), but most probably didn't. BUT, that tactic definately steped up the media coverage and dropped the police's charade of also being non-violent. The next day, the police started arresting people in mass, tear gas cannisters started getting dropped in suburbia, residential neighborhoods became warzones, and because the media was watching intently, partly because of the Black Bloc, that they were there to cover the battle in the residential areas of Seattle. And THAT is what brought mass condemnation of the WTO, the Police, and, in part, the System itself.

Philly was different because the police were expecting the property destruction, as were the media. In Philly it would have been better maybe not to have had that happen there, but those are individual choices. People involved should think of the whole movement and what the reaction will be before they participate in actions. THIS IS NOT A CONDEMNATION, though. The dumpsters in the streets were tactical to slow down a police assault and were effective in keeping several people out of jail. The only things busted up that i saw were cops cars and media vehicles. Good or bad, this forces tehm to cover what's going on. BUT that also does scare some people and perpetuates the image that Anarchy is chaos because littel attention is given to the differecne between proterty destruction and the human destruction that is being protested by braking windows. In Seattle, I thought that it was important. In Philly, I felt that it was too scripted and, since they were expecting it, not effective outside of individual affintiy group tactics.

I personally feel that maybe these arguments should be examined when the LA event begins: 1) Whether the protests will be covered by mainstream media without a riot 2) Whether the people we want to convert to our side will get it when they see it on MSNBC back home in Iowa or Texas or Maine 3)Whether it will force a tougher police crackdown on people who are not participating in Black Bloc activities 4)Whether there are enough people supporting the protests to make that an effective tactic, especially with the risk of arrest and jail solidarity etc and 5) if any of this matters.

ALSO, Black Blocs should be aware that there are agents provoceteurs out there to raise the stakes for us. In Philly, I am almost certain that there were at least 2 cops in the gang supporting the Black Bloc actions. These people were instrumental in bringing dumpsters out int hte streets and news paper machines, etc. They had cell phones, looked like cops, and jumped into the protests without affinity groups, and acted to "into it." They were also close enough to police to be arrested but were not. This may be a paranoia kicking in, but beware.

On that note, not all the people breaking stuff were anarchists. There was a group of Young Communists (with Red Flags) that were quite involved in the actions in Philly, too. So it is wrong to imply that the Anarchists were the only ones involved.

In Closing, Evaluate the whole situation and don't criticize more than you support. In the end, it is all the same battle. This infighting is what they want (i.e. COINTELPRO).

Look at who the real enemy is and judge accordingly.

SOLIDARITY

FREE THE POLITICAL PRISONERS

and don't forget, WE WILL WIN!

Yes, the movement needs to engage in a discussion of tactics. It currently is, on listservs and websites. Personally, I think the discussion about vandalism has gotten pretty old. If you don't like vandalism, don't engage in it. But at the same time, please quit hellping the ruling class by engaging in these pointless discussions about how vandalism "hurts the movement." It doesn't, OK? If we wanted to focus on things that "hurt" the movement, then we should focus on the clothes that activists where to demos. If you read enough news accounts that diss activists for looking like hippies or not bathing, you might be tempted to argue that by not wearing suits we are alienating the public. Obviously, this can get downright silly.

We need to stay on message here and not let the media get us worked up about small differences about tactics. Needless to say, based on my experiences post-Seattle, I have plenty of evidence that the window-smashing was an intelligent publicity move. I firmly believe that history will look kindly on those actions, if we manage to win the goals we are struggling for.

End this shit, NOW!

Why, why, do we you keep on with this debate?

Fighting thr power ain't pretty. Infact it's gonna get down right ugly, so we can stop with this mental masterbation. To lockdown or not to lockdown? To smash or not to smash? BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. Lets stop wasting our time; We have a revolution to win...