The sun was hot in Long Beach but an anti-Minutemen protest at St. Luke’s was not. Tame by comparison to past anti-Minuteman actions in the past the gathering last Saturday lacked the usual “fire”. However the Minutemen and Save Our State were soundly beaten by numbers alone with the anti-immigrant protesters only being able to field about 40 members and pro-immigrant forces gathering to about 100 at the height of the event. Meant to be the start of an all out offensive on immigrant harboring churches this clear program of intimidation by Save Our State and The Minutemen Project was far less than successful. The SOS and Minutemen camp dwindled to about 15 or less before the end of the action.
The morning consisted of statements being fired back and forth via megaphone as both sides faced each other on the corner of 7th and Atlantic. Both groups were separated by wooden barricades, orange vested volunteers and of course the Long Beach police. One anti-immigrant protester was led away by police after he tried to cross into the pro-immigrant side. The SOS and Minutemen showed their usual ignorance to history, politics and the socioeconomic situation and even religion. A few of their signs bore harsh criticism of the Catholic Church even though the protest was at an Episcopal house of worship. One anti-immigrant protester responded with a blank stare when questioned about the incongruity. Pro-immigrant supporters were on the other hand confident and upbeat making plans for future meetings, plans and events.
The anti-immigrant megaphoned rants were later drowned out by the Aztec Dancers and the event got a little emotional when Liliana’s two young children came out in front of the news cameras and made a plea to have there mother returned home to them.
After the event when you’re humble narrator and companion were confronted by Long Beach Police officers. While on our way back to our car around the corner from where pro-immigrant protesters were filtering away and fifteen minutes after the SOS/Minutemen had already left . We came across three squad cars, four cops were “gearing up” with riot helmets, gas masks and 4 foot long nightsticks. We turned on the video camera and started shooting and asked them what they were getting ready for. One very large officer came up to us and barked “step back…you are too close to my police vehicle!” we stepped back and he barked at us again declaring that we were getting too close to him. I notified him that he was the one walking towards us, he replied with a smirk. Clearly using provocational tactics reminiscent of MacArthur Park we never the less and held our ground.
The police became very self conscious of the camera and began to fiddle with their equipment as they looked towards their leader for further orders. Two other units pulled up but by then an order was given to pack away there weapons and gear. We decided to leave. We took an indirect route back to our car, as we turned up 6th street we noticed a couple of police units and an unmarked car cruising slowly behind us. We stopped and looked right at them as they photographed us with their little digital cameras and cell phones. When asked why they were photographing us one officer responded by saying “if you can do it, we can do it to”. We told them that they could go ahead since “we are the ones with nothing to hide”. We changed direction and they went on there way.
We zigzagged a bit and headed back to our car; I spotted the undercover car in an alley but decided to continue on our way home. As we made our way down to Atlantic the undercover car was clearly tailing us. I turned into the crowded left lane and slowed down, the undercover police car with it’s darker than night smoked windows pulled along side and we waved our hands and gave them big smiles.
We made a left turn and made a round about journey back to the 710 deciding not to patronize the City of Long Beach and ditched our plans to see the Soviet sub moored along side the Queen Mary.

Thank you so much for the great commentary on this rally!
Once again, SOS fails!
I also love how you handled the police!

Minutemen, Save Our State followers in Long Beach, July 28, 2007

Minutemen, Save Our State followers in Long Beach, California, July 28, 2007.

Long Beach, July 28, 2007

July 28, 2007, Long Beach.

Long Beach, July 28, 2007.

Long Beach, July 28, 2007.

I thought SOS/MMP/SDMM going to bring alots of people on the street of the church? what happen gerry nance?

If you mean Border Raven, he was there. He's in one of the videos Naui has on his youtube username.

VIDEO: Minutemen Unwelcome in Marin
http://indybay.org/newsitems/2007/07/30/18438006.php

On July 28, 2007, the Minutemen border vigilantes held a meeting in Larkspur, California, to organize a new chapter in Marin County. Local immigrant rights activists greeted them with the message that racists are unwelcome in our county.

[click the link to indybay to view the video!]

gerry, sos/mmp/sdmm are pathetic. you guys cant bring out any great amount of people one your side. is that your best gerry? even jeff didnt come out.

V, SOS/MM/SDMM realize we don't bring large crowds to the street, for our protest rallies, but we have come to realize, by calling a rally, we may or may not, attract counter protesters. However, if we acheive our intended goal, or even an unintended goal, then we call it a successful rally. I will concede the rally in Long Beach, could have been conducted better, it could have been organized better, and the attendees could have been more cooperative, instead the SOS/MM/SDMM crowd who did show up were more like a bunch of sheep, with a few crows tossed in. While many focused on getting the message out to the passing public and recruiting, a few ignored advice and engaged the counter protesters. While the SOS/MM could have come prepared and with specific assignments, they came with a few signs and flags, expecting the public to actually infer thier message. Did any of the SOS/MM signs actually mention which orgaizations were present at the rally? maybe a few. Did anyone pass out leaflets to the public, before or during the event? no. Was church operations disrupted no. Was it peaceful and safe? yes. In critique, I believe SOS/MM did well, but could improve with training and discipline.

And if they don't take part in the training and discipline, I know what happens. You tell them to STAND DOWN!

any pictures????????????

This was such an obvious failure for SOS/Minutemen. Even BorderRaven admits to that! And then you have the other SOS/MM comment that instead of having anything intelligent to add, flings ridiculous insulting accusations which carry no merit whatsoever! An obvious sign of defeat.
The truth of the matter is, SOS cannot pull in the numbers to make a difference, or even a statement. That organization has become a joke, even to others within the same movement. The constant immature bickering, banning of its members, outright racism, dictator-like leaders,harrassment of Mexicans, & the splintering off of members joining/creating 'other' groups is beginning to wear on this group.
They're gonna have to do a lot better than scraping together just 40-50 "patriots"!
P.S.:
The pics for you Naui! When they stoop so low as to fabricate lies about you, it becomes obvious to all that you are deemed a threat & are important enough to do so!!

It was obvious to all that SOS failed once again with this latest attempt! Even BorderRaven could see this! And then you have the other comment, that instead of having anything intelligent to add, just spits ridiculous accusations that hold no merit, towards a pro-immigrant activist! An obvious sign of defeat.
SOS has become a joke. They cant even muster up more than 40-50 "patriots"??! Again, they were outnumbered. All the constant childish bickering, dictator-like leaders, banning of members, racism, harrassment of Mexican workers, backwards attempts at gaining support/members such as the whole reperations issue, arrests & assults, & the splintering off to form/join 'other' groups by its members is taking a toll.
P.S>
This pics for you, Naui! When they have to resort to making grossly ridiculous unfound accusations about you, it becomes quite evident to all that you are making an impact & deemed a threat! Keep up the great work, comrade!

Immanuel Pres gives shelter to immigrants seeking refuge from the Gestapo!

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1645169,00.html

The above poster called government employees/police enforcing the laws of this nation the gestapo? That's ridiculous and the reason why sentiment like this can only take root on indymedia and why it will never successfully spread anywhere else. If anyone needs to be villified, it's the *illegal* immigrants (don't forget that first half of the phrase) who break the laws of this country the moment they come here. Enforcing borders and laws is basic to sovereignty, if you truly don't believe government, laws borders etc are needed, if you are a true anarchist/no borders believer, go to somalia and other regions in Africa and see how you like the logical conclusion of this philosophy.

"Immanuel Presbyterian on Wilshire gives refuge as well !
by BaBaBooey! Wednesday, Aug. 01, 2007 at 3:15 PM
Immanuel Pres gives shelter to immigrants seeking refuge from the Gestapo!

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1645169,00.html

The Human species has existed without legal borders in many cultures for the vast majority of the existence of the species on Earth...
Recorded History and "Civilization" has only been around 6k years- homo sapian sapian for 50K.

Civilization as we know it is only a failed experiment.

during the Holocaust: taking refuge from an iron-fisted tyranny.

BTW, "Jorge" is a fake Latino:

embrace capitalism

"give up these backward socialistic practices and develop a free(r) market system. Your unemployment will certainly go down, socialism doesnt work, socialism is like chopping down the fruit tree that feeds you."

chris gordon
mail e-mail: jorge_610@hotmail.com

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/03/335990.html?c=on

Is what you people live in. Again, this is why this same group of people will be talking amongst themselves and shouting their empty slogans 5, 10, 50 years from now while the rest of the world makes decisions without them (just like today!). Okay, lets talk about lack of legal borders. How about American Indians, North or South American you pick. You know what happened if one tribe encroached on the territory of another? There was war. Read up about it. Didn't need legal borders because each tribe knew where their people were and where the others were. How about the germanic tribes of pre-roman era. Same thing. How about African tribes until just a few hundred years ago. Feel that sensation? That's the real world interrupting your make-believe.
As for anarchy, I'm sure after a week in a non-society where anarchy reigned you'd be begging to be rescued. You'd be hoping that the failed experiment of civilization would reclaim you. The same failed experiment that has given you protection to say such ignorant things, given you medicines that have allowed you to grow to this age, science that has allowed you to understand the world around you and made your life more comfortable, security that (except for crime perpetrated by those who act as if we don't have a social order, sounds like a form of anarchy huh?) has allowed you to grow and live without being raped, enslaved, murdered, etc. Every enlightenment thinker thought true peace and coexistance in anarchy wasn't possible. Hey, if you wan't to try, go ahead. There are places in the world where you can live free as an anarchist with no laws. It will be an ideological evolutionary process though! In a few generations you will be dead and me and my family will be sleeping peacefully at night. But please, put your money where your mouth is, as they say...

>>>Okay, lets talk about lack of legal borders. How about American Indians, North or South American you pick. You know what happened if one tribe encroached on the territory of another? There was war...<<<

thus, following this so-called logic, the first European "settlers" on this hemisphere are the real "illegal aliens" as they encroached on the territory of the First Nations, violating the sovereignty of said Nations, and thus all Euro-Americans should be rounded up and summarily deported .

>>>So I'm going to test this out. You imply that Lilliana or whatever this chick's name is, is on a moral equivalent as Anne Franke escaping the Nazi's. That the supposed tyranny of enforcing laws and national sovereignty in America is about on par with exterminating people. I didn't say it, you did. <<<

the Holocaust began with the "tyranny of enforcing laws and the national sovereignty" of the Third Reich, with the Enabling Laws, anti-immigrant laws, the anti-Jewish laws and "rallies" (i.e. Kristalnacht) , etc., and then it did later progress to extermination. The difference between the persecution of Anne Frank by the Nazis, and the persecution of Liliana by the descendents of the Nazis, is in degree, not kind.
Today, with the encatment of the "Patriot act" which is our own version of the Nazi Enabling Laws, we may see the progression to extermination yet.

As for the concept of Anarchy, I shall defer to the Circle A folks.

First off, I'm a little offended by your bigotry. How do you know that I'm latino/not latino, based off my name? I know plenty of latinos with anglo sounding names and anglo looking faces! Im surprised something of this sort of race-name judgement comes from anyone on indymedia. Jorge isn't my birthname (a lot of people call me that though), but neither is bababooey yours (at least I hope not). Notice I'm not asking you about Robin/Howard/Hank the angry dwarf?.
You and I agree on something! (but I don't think you'll like it, you'll see why in a minute). I absolutely agree the first euro explorers and conquerors carried a mindset of conquering, exploiting, moral/cultural/religious superiority and can absolutely be characterized as illegal aliens. This wasn't there's, they came they took it. I also agree that if any of those dudes are still alive, absolutely deport them! The native peoples called this continent their home because they were born here and their families lived here. Same story with most modern day Americans...
However, here's the catch that I promised you. First off, if you want to label those europeans anything other than legal migrants, you need to presuppose some concept of property rights and if not legal borders, borders in the abstract, both of which those Euros are violating. Once that logical presumption is made, you can’t argue that Mexicans are legally migrating into the US. Using the same standard applied to those first Europeans, then modern day Mexicans are illegal aliens as well.
You reject the historical form but champion the modern day version. See boys and girls, this is called contradiction. Now you might say that that there's a difference between the europeans of the 15th and later centuries and modern day illegal aliens. However, your own words can't let you do this, as the difference "is in degree, not kind." (that should sound familiar, look at your last post) So you have a choice, you can ignore this whole argument and resort to debating my ethnicity, which has been your crutch so far, or you can reconcile your logic and admit that this Lilliana chick is some lady who came here illegally and needs to be removed as per the laws of this country.

>>>First off, I'm a little offended by your bigotry. How do you know that I'm latino/not latino, based off my name? I know plenty of latinos with anglo sounding names and anglo looking faces! <<<

And I know plenty of Anglos who go around claiming to be "2% Native American!" or "part Latino" in a vain attempt to mask their virulent Aryan supremacist arguments. These same Neo-Nazis claim that "I'm NOT racist-- some of my friends just happen to be Negroes!"

>>>Jorge isn't my birthname (a lot of people call me that though), <<<

so, following this so-called logic, if people were to refer to you as "King of all A$$holes" you would adopt this as your name .

>>>I absolutely agree the first euro explorers and conquerors carried a mindset of conquering, exploiting, moral/cultural/religious superiority and can absolutely be characterized as illegal aliens. This wasn't there's, they came they took it.<<<

they took it and then handed it over to none other than Chris Gordon, which makes him an unindicted accomplice and co-conspirator.

Here is where the contradiction lies. The fake Latino Jorge/Chris Gordon wants Liliana to "go back" to wherever she came from, but he will not "go back" to Europe. Even "Gary the Retard" can see it..

About 20 SOS/MM attended a party yesterday in Long Beach. Discussions ranged from guns, and knives to cameras, computers, Star Trek, and of course illegal immigration. The event was quickly planned, and regretably, I didn't have enough time to invite Leslie Radford, as prevously offered, but maybe next time, as she wants a one-on-one interview with Joe Turner. Perhaps her and Joe can arrange to meet sometime. Naui, was missed, as we know he would have livened up the party, and he would prefered to leave sooner than later. Also missed were Duane Robers and John Earl, but then again they never wander far from the OC. Anyway, I had fun, maybe next time we can conduct focus groups. Oh, yeah, Brook Young, seemed eager to avoid any conversation with me. What's up with that, Brook? Hey, maybe we can talk about guns, ammo, I'll give you my favorite recipie for an explosive compound and how to tie a good lynching noose.

Who cares what you did at a park. I doubt you were interfering with day labor or harassing people in parking lots this time.

Jammer, so your point is SOS/MM partying in a park is a "low value target"?

Depends on who you ask. To me it's hardly a "target." I couldn't give a rat's butt what you and the others do at a park amongst yourselves. Better that than clog up traffic in Laguna Beach.

I thought it funny that you all would be talking Star Trek at your little park get-together. I would have to asume that at least some of you are fans which is very ironic. The Federation is essentialy a socialist state, funny since you hate us reds so much. Also the Federation has no borders except for the Neutral Zone. All member planets also have no borders, worlds that have any artificial or political boundries are not allowed and considered not socially advanced enough for membership in the Federation. Refugees created by economics, warfare or otherwise are always cared for and there needs met by the Federation, i.e. the Bjorans.

Also in terms of law breaking both Captians Kirk and Piccard and even Spock and Data have broken Federation and Starfleet regulations on many occasions because it was the human thing to do. They have even broken the Prime Directive when it meant protecting the wellfare of an alien culture. So I'm glad you are watching Star Trek, keep at it and you all may learn somthing.

Isnt it sad that the minuteklan have to meet at a secret location just to have a bar-b-que? : )

Sad, so sad. Wassa matter? Afraid we might show up and ruin your whole day? There, there, Gerry. Dont cry. ; )

Interesting point but if any of them are Trek fans, it could be simply entertainment for them. I'm sure when they're done watching Star Trek, the Trekkie fan turns off and the close minded behind-the-times border fanatic turns back on.

Atheist, it's funny that foothillpages stole the idea to have a picnic from gerry. after the "stand down" argument.

Excellent point, V!!!
And I particularly love the fact that Dennis Slater (AmericanPatriot77) has decided to go against everything he supposedly stood for, and GO "P.C."!!!!

They are only trying to patch things up between each other because we are all on to them, & we enjoy watching all the internal strife that is sure to destroy these pathetic groups!

It's funny how Gerry confirmed the two nazis back in 2005, and now he says the opposite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_-ZAngquI0

You may remember those two.

>>>And I particularly love the fact that Dennis Slater (AmericanPatriot77) has decided to go against everything he supposedly stood for, and GO "P.C."!!!! <<<

hey, i thought it was just a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert t-shirt!!!!

And when one of them came here saying the Nazi symbol was also used by monks. I get it, those skinheads in Laguna in 2005 were really Buddhist monks!

there are plenty of videos/pix by people like Jammer and very many others showing the Nazis/SOS/MMP harassing day laborers on private property i.e. Home Depot, city day labor sites, etc.

What is the likelyhood of getting some legal group to get a court ordered injunction/restraining order against these groups, so when they resort to their dirty tricks they'll get their @sses hauled off to jail?
I read about a restraing order filed last week against a notorious internet pedophile that's enforcible STATEWIDE, so it's been done before!!!

You're an ignorant fuck. A simple Google search will tell the Budist swastika rotates CCW and the Nazi swaztika rotates CW. And you are to thank for the skinheads comming to Laguna Canyon, as it was your friend, who tipped them to the rally. Cliff, you better stop, you've been telling your lies for so long now, you are forgetting the original story.

What do you want Cliff?

Do you want a one on on with Jim Gilchrist?

Are you man enough?

Last time I spoke with Gilchrst one on one was in Capistrano recently and he kept asking me if I wanted to hit him.

The friend I brought to Laguna in 2005 is Mark who I met at a Megadeth concert. I had no experience with dealing with Nazis at the time nor was I sure of his character. And he actually tipped me off about the possibility of Nazis showing up. I didn't know what to make of it and showed up for SOS anyways and that day was a whole mess.

That was the first day I had anything to do with SOS, but it wasn't the first day the Nazis were involved with SOS and you know it. So does Debbie Sattler who told me on Sept 24 of 2005 that Joe Turner used to let the Nazis rally with them. She made that clear and it was the reason, at the time, why she quit SOS and focused more on the Gilchrist campaign.

The day in question you speak of is July 30, 2005 which was my first day of involvement with SOS. Sept 24 is the 2nd occasion(3rd if you count a banner display at an Angels game) of participation and the day when Debbie told me about SOS and Joe Turner.

If you don't believe that I met Mark through Medadeth well before July 30 of 2005, here's a picture of us with Dave Mustaine himself of Megadeth.

gerry, I hate to tell you this that SOS has dealt with the neonazi well before the laguna beach incident. They were at the 1st and 2nd rally at baldwin park. Also, SOS sponsored their rally at victorville. Still the person who calls himself "advocate" still shows at SOS rally. The last time I saw him was at sos/mmp rally in downtown l.a. dont act stupid gerry.

And the one Advocate attended in Irvine, which I got on video. I can always upload it again on youtube.

Gerry, you cant handle the truth right? believe what sos/mmp tell you. be that sheep they want you to be. just dont ask questions and follow the herd and you r going to be alright. is this what they are teaching u?

before I'll trust hearsay evidence.

My God you people are idiots. Back in early 2005, SOS was a new group, that was growing. Anyone showing up was accepted as being possible membership. Fault lies with leadership for not using an application form or vetting process to limit membership. Fault lies with leadership for not establish a security group to recognize and neutralize problems. SOS is still evolving. SOS is going through phases of evolution common to new groups. It is shedding and splitting, but can rejoin, and reform into a new and improved SOS, anytime. What emerges in the future could be what you have most feared.

Alright, the SOS was so young that Joe Turner didn't know any better than to let skinheads rally with him.

And I guess Borderraven was so young he didn't know any better when he brandished a firearm in Lake Forest

Gerry tells us "SOS is still evolving." Here's the most recent evolution in their relations with their splinter group, nomoreinvasion.com:

Joe Turner, today referring to Dennis Slater's August 25 car wash protest: "Due to some unforseen circumstances, Save Our State is pulling out of this event."

"If you would still like to participate with a group of individuals or any other organization that is participating, that is great. However, Save Our State needs to reassess its strategic goals and objectives at this point in time."

With three members left, I can see why.

But three weeks ago, Turner was saying, "If you post on Save Our State and you engage in personal attacks, slams, back biting, gossip, etc., about No More Invasion or members and leaders of No More Invasion, you will be given one warning and suspension. If it comes to a second offense, I will personally ban you and I don't care how long you have been with the organization, what you have done for the movement, etc."

How quickly things "evolve." And split, and split, and split, and split. Is that a split I hear in nomoreinvasion????

P.S.
Sandinator's splinter group up to anything these days? . . . I didn't think so.

your lying gerry. Now your saying that SOS were ignorance about skinheads being at there rally before the laguna beach. And you keep saying that Cliff brought the skinhead. And how come, I saw same exact skinhead in Baldwin Park and Laguna Beach. Did SOS had a vote on Cliff and skinhead after Cliff left SOS. I keep seeing same exact soundbite at sos site. what givies your ignorance gerry. be that sheep gerry. and follow that herd gerry? and esspecially dont order people to "stand down."

Again, Cliff, you require education. What is it with your fascination or fear of guns? Have you ever or never owned or held a firearm? Perhaps some local training course would aleviate your fears. Anyway, here is one of many the laws, I follow.

CA PC 12031.(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

V, it is ever more evident conversing with you is non- productive, as you lack cognitative skills.

So, stand down.

While you are attempting to comprehend, the above, I invite you to read the archives of LA Indy concerning SOS in Laguna Canyon. Also try to seek out Duane J. Roberts, the photographer in the canyon that day. He is Editor at http://www.ocvoice.com/.

Some time in late 2005 there was an incident where Vince Estrada was struck by someone. They took off in a vehicle and you got in yours and gave chase. You came back and admitted to showing your firearm to them, resulting in them speeding off. That's brandishing a firearm.

Hey there big guy. Don't you know it's like super illegal to be sporting shooting irons at any parade, public gathering or government building, mr. law&order?

California is in a condition of war memergency and I am preparing for war. Attack is eminent.

California Government Code
8558. Three conditions or degrees of emergency are established by this chapter:
(a) "State of war emergency" means the condition which exists immediately, with or without a proclamation thereof by the Governor, whenever this state or nation is attacked by an enemy of the United
States, or upon receipt by the state of a warning from the federal government indicating that such an enemy attack is probable or imminent.

With loonies like you running around "ready for combat" ( BTW. look at yourself.Sgt Slaughter) armed and anxious, it makes sane normal people who own guns, disgusted.
You need a stair master more than a fire arm to be ' prepared for war' you moron.

Gerry, I know the truth. you pathic loser bullshiter. gerry, u r the number 1 sheep of the anti immigrant. i am gald they banned your big fat ass. be the sheep they want you to be gerry and follow the herd and shut the fuck up.

So, all venting of hate aside here. Does anyone here really think "Nazis", in sunny California of all places are anything other than a gang of alienated white kids? The nazi thing is just an image they want to project. I won't deny, a bunch of pissed off kids can kick someone's ass, but let's be honest and consider what you're calling Nazis. Half of them will probably end up growing up and getting married with kids and drive a minivan.

California in a state of war emergency? There aren't enough Minutemen to put California in such a condition.

u r an idiot jorge the nazi is not the question. it's gerry's lying about cliff. gerry follows the lies of SOS.

>>>Does anyone here really think "Nazis", in sunny California of all places are anything other than a gang of alienated white kids?<<<

and you should know, you're one of them

As I said before gag, I am not the soldier, but the general, who has studied strategy and tactics. I am not the one to go to the front lines, but I have a lot to offer those who do, and the families who stay behind. Simple strategy of awareness of terrain, and geograhpic features for one thing, and how to take advantage if needed. The basice fo food, water, shelter and first aid. Priorities over emotions, but I digress...

V, you wit is all you have to hide your troubled past. I've met people like you before. Sad, V.

I did not lie about Cliff, as much as Cliff is not standing up to his original story of Laguna Canyon, the Neo-Nazis and SOS. Duane Roberts, Pulisher of the OCVoice was the photographer. Granted I was not at that rally, but I've talked to enough people to figure out what happened. SOS was did not invite any Nazis to any rally. Joe Turner has much respect for other's civil rights and did not want any violence at the rally. You had a group of Nazis being called Nazis, so they pulled out their flags, and hammed the cameras. Joe Turner is not a Nazi or a racist and anyone who says so, can face me on the street.

Why dont you blame don silva (under oldpreach) he is the one who posted on stormfront and there are some pictures around the net with national vanguard with him. i doubt it if he will tell you the truth about him being ignorance and not blame himself for bring out the neonazi. as you can see why joey didntt do the posting. He exactly know they were skinheads, neonazi white supremist. It was not cliff who tip the neonazi. it was don silva who tip them off.
oh ya gery, you know me now because i uncover your lies. when will you think for yourself gerry? on the last note, be the sheep they want you to be and follow the herd.

V, you say there is proof in a forum? Can you find a URL to it and/or a screen shot? Much thanks. Let's dig up the proof about SOS and the Nazi connection. Show me what you have.

You could say the same about gangsters. Angry, mentally suggestible, blaming their problems on others, acting out violently, glamorizing crime and engaging in it. Hate cops, and hated by cops....

....unless they find religion or some shit, and then become hard-right reactionaries. Then the cops love them, because they're still thugs, but willing to kiss police butt to get ahead.

...but if they go "Gandhi" and renounce violence, and point at the legions of corrupt cops, try to end racism by proselytizing to doubters, and try to learn to work within a violence society as a contrite person but against violence and war. Then the system hates you. They fry you like Tookie, or harass you like Alex Sanchez and Homies Unidos.

It's not that different with Nazis. The ones who go anti-racist don't get support -- they get grilled on tv talk shows because people don't believe that fascists can reform. The ones who just tone down the violence and become right wing "patriots" get a lot of quiet praise from the conservative establishment.

Do you seriously think I called up a bunch of Nazis and invited them to Laguna Beach? And you say you spoke with other people to hear what they said about me? I bet you spoke to Jim Gilchrist. Last time I spoke with him, or tried to, he was telling everyone at the gathering that I was a spy or infiltrated, I forgot which word he used, and that I was with a gay guy named O'Neil. I've never heard of anyone named O'Neil and never knew anyone in my life with that name. And if there were a gay guy by that name, I wonder why Gilchrist would mention that he's gay. Unless he had a quick lapse of homophobia. Not saying that's his long term stance or attitude towards gays.

Anyways, contrary to BR's claim about Laguna Beach in 2005, I actually tried to do the opposite. Mark was in contact with some of the Nazis and told me about it, advised me to not get near them, and even asked me to pretend I didn't know him. I don't recall his exact words but I recall understanding at the time from what he said that he seemed to be intimidated by the Nazis and may have feared consequences if he didn't rally with them.

As for Mark himself, I've known him to be friendly towards people of other races, has a black/mexican friend, and even makes efforts to be approachable. It may be an attitude to counter the white nationalist stuff he has gotten himself into. Could be a case where let's say someone is compelled by peers to be mean to certain people. He gets disgusted and suddenly he is very motivated to do the opposite and get to know the people that were his previous target. He said he's not a Nazi and never was, getting into specifics. So I dunno, I regarded him as a person who went with the flow but may grow out of it and focus on day to day life as he struggled to get work and get by. I haven't been in contact with him since late 2005. Believe me, if he was a full on Nazi with tatooes and stuff, I wouldn't have hung out with him nor would it be likely he would have hung out with me.

So anyways Laguna was a mess but it took me one day to figure that out. It took SOS a heck of a long time dating back well before July 30 of 2005, which I wasn't aware of until some time after that date through reports and photos and research.

Don Silva knew they were a white nationalist group and why did he still invite them? that email posted on stormfront he used the same exact email for his chess meeting. look at the bottom. it is confirmed that old preach was the one who tip off the the nationalist.

oldpreach:
Hi there,

I just wanted to add, since I have been involved with MMP since the beginning, still am, and got back from the Campo gig a 2 days ago, that from my perspective the reason is simple. Let me back up a bit.

In todays society it seems as if everyone is carrying around their personal beliefs with them at all times like a little pet dog in their shirt pocket. Many W/N's and etc are just the same way. You would like some kind of alliance, but if the truth be know, there is none to be had becuzz MMP is not really a group the same way say Vangaurd or some other groups are. MMP is simply Americans of all backgrounds coming together to send a message to that currupt King George. Its all just people showing up. There can be no group to group tie becuzz it is not really a group in any political or ideological way.

Here is the deal. If anyone wants to be involved, you just show up and leave all the rest at home. I have to do this with my beliefs. I am not white sep, or any other things related to white groups, but i have my own things as a Christian that I must leave aside for the 'cause' as we call it. You just show up, and expect no glory. What you can expect is dust and lots of it. Heat ansd sweat. Work , and the appreciation from others, and the feeling of accomplishment that goes along with it all.

It is a very satisfying experience to say the least.

Its not about group relationships, its about doing the job that Bush and Congress knowingly refuse to do, and nothing else.

Another post by don silva: I can not seem to PM about the july 10th event. Can one of the orgs of the event plz email me the details ?

Thnks. sfvcc1@yahoo.com
5122

Cliff, so you told Mark about the rally and he told the Nazis and they came an coat tailed off the SOS. But they were not part of SOS, then and have not been. Is that so?

I see what you mean, its like the US military allowing gays, on a don't ask, don't tell basis. But, SOS/MM memberships is open, to all regardless of race, ethnicity, mental illness, beliefs, vegan, carnivore, etc., so technically anyone can join, and they will eventually be discovered. We may even have a mole.

I can't accesss the Stormfront URL to verify it, but I sent an email.

The post looks like somethoing Don would say, and he would be recruiting from a group of whites. OTOH, he would be offering them another place to explore themselves and find their identity.

SOS forums are good for communication. Much better than LA Indy, since you have editing capabilities.

Reading the post, if it is by Don, he is telling them to come out as people or humans, not racists. I have strived to weed out racists from SOS/MM. If I detected it, I challenged it. I made some people uncomfortable, but I was trying to keep people from making SOS/MM look like racists.

Controlling the content of SOS/MM is like controlling the congregation of a church.

No Mark didn't tell them to come. They were coming anyways and were expecting him there.

The SOS/MM may be open to all to rally with them on little more than a first name basis. But from my experience in 2005, to really fit in you have to be Christian(or at least believe in God as they do), conservative, anti-Islam, anti-gay, and have unconditional "patriotism." If you defend Islam on the basis of freedom of religion, you'll probably get an awkward situation.

And now from the speeches I hear from the youtube videos posted by them, it's gotten worse.

Thank you Cliff, for clearing it up about the Nazis and Mark. Bottom line is the Nazis didn't come to the rally as part of SOS -- at that time. So, which came first the Nazis to the rally or Don Silva's invite for them to join SOS incognito?

I seem to remember I made a declaration of my religious beliefs in SOS some time ago. I wonder if I conflicted with Don.

Oh well, we live in a country where religous choice is protected.

I'm not sure if SOS had the Nazis come and I never said that. Debbie said that Joe used to let them rally with SOS. But I'm not sure if he actually picked up the phone to invite them. The Nazis were simply tolerated by him and others. They freak out and get pissed off when they see day labor workers and people they assume are here against immigration laws, yet used to mingle with the Nazis again and again.

Supposedly we have freedom of religion in this country. However, if you're Islamic you may get the Minutemen and SOS to visit your mosque and yell at you and act all pissed off.

Atheism seems to be tolerated by them. I was only bothered by one member with disgust when I stated that I'm atheist. Another member stated he was also atheist at the same time, got the same treatment. Another member reacted by sounding intent to convert me to I assume Christianity in the usual manner friendly but assertive manner some Christians do.

Several times SOS has joined UAC to protest a mosque. Goto the link: http://www.saveourstate.org/vforums/archive/index.php/t-13030.html

i saw bret, debbie, ray, ted and several SOS members.

To the best of my knowlege, these days SOS/MM do not allow (Nazis, skinheads, racists, and white-separatists). SOS rally policy, is that group can't be excluded from attending the venue, but must stand separate from the SOS group. SOS/MM continue to seek out racists, for exclusion.

The MM/SOS didn't do that in Irvine when Advocate from Stormfront was there. Nor when Advocate rallied with them at that high school when they were using that student for publicity. He walked right by Old Preach and there's no way Preach didn't know who he is.

And you were there at Irvine by the way. You saw them do nothing.

borderraven, how's your nazi grandfather doing?

Like Uncle like nephew. Still a racist aways a racist. Right Borderraven?

Cliff, you are hangin by a thread, dude. I hardly see Advocate, so it may take a while to recognize him. I Jarupa, he walked by me, and I may have taken his pic. It wasn't until you mentioned it later, that I was aware he was there. But, then 20/20 hindsight is your best quality, Cliff, because you always seem to enjoy pointing things out after the fact. Pathetic.

What do you mean after the fact? I wasn't there at that high school rally so I only saw photos afterwards. But I was there at the Irvine one and was informing the Minutemen there on the spot. And they of course did nothing. Hmmmmm.

Thanks for confirming the 20/20 hindsight a Jurupa HS. True, you recognized Advocate from the photos, from the event. Maybe some of my photos. As for the Irvine Spectrum rally, they MM and others who came out, are not as street smart as you would expect them to be. Sheesh! They're old! They come out for some sunshine and flag waving fun, not to hunt Nazis. And I notice you pointed Advocate out after I had left and we had chatted. When will you stop grasping at straws? What are you seeking? Cliff, do you or don't you have undeniable proof, that the MM/SOS has known members who are Nazis, racists, skinheads? If so, publish a Press Release, under your name, and name them. Put up something that will stand up in court, and that you put you name on. Give us the truth, under threat of a defamation law suit. What do you know Cliff?

At Irvine I didn't see Advocate until later after our chat when I crossed the road to the other corner.

At Irvine I didn't see Advocate until later after our chat when I crossed the road to the other corner.

Herr Schwartzenegger has signed a bill OUTLAWING landlords asking about the legal status of tennants or potential tennants!!!

IT'S OKTOBERFEST, BABY!!! YEAH

an ode to Ahnold:

I'm the cream of the crop
I'll rise to the top
I'll never eat a pig
'cuz a pig is a cop
or better yet a Terminator
like Arnold Schwarzenegger
try'n play me out as is my name were Sega

I agree that government agents shouldn't be called gestapo for enforcing our laws. But make sure you tell Chelene that since she complained about the SVPD and asked if the ovens were next for SOS.

All of this because the police wouldn't allow them onto church property.

>>>I agree that government agents shouldn't be called gestapo for enforcing our laws.<<<

"Remember that everything Hitler did was legal"
--MLK, jr

How dare Don Silva and SOS compare their plight to that of Jews in Germany during the 1930's. This shows how out of touch with reality they are. They should stop going to so many John Birch Society type meetings.

> How dare Don Silva and SOS compare their
> plight to that of Jews in Germany during
> the 1930's

Next these scumbags will start trying to pretend they're the Polish being invaded by the Nazis, or the Iraqis being invaded by the Bush fascists. They want to play pretend that they have enemies and that their enemies are superhuman and powerful, bent on destroying the world. Makes them feel important.

Sometimes I did get the sense that they were revolutionary wannabes with their protest signs.

Also I see them express a lack of sympathy and even snicker at misfortunes like migrant camps being affected by the brush fires and similar incidents. I wonder how long it will be until they regard the idea of killing certain people in the same way. They want to deport people for being here against immigration laws. How long until they want to deport people for not using the English language, on the basis that it's "Unamerican?"

>>>l How long until they want to deport people for not using the English language, on the basis that it's "Unamerican?"

it' was the natural progression in Nazi Germany