As the Minutemen and their supporters held a protected rally on the southeast corner of Hollywood Blvd. and Argyle Street, the opposition overflowed to the nearby corners with the biggest crowd on the southwest corner.

Having already surrounded the opposition protestors, members of the LAPD aggressively approached. This despite the fact that the opposition activists were non-violent even when approached by Minutemen provocateurs that frequently drifted across the street.

A young woman in her 20’s was dragged from the crowd, violently thrown down in the street and was hit several times with the policeman’s baton. This was the beginning of the cop riot.

For the next several minutes aggressive members of the LAPD hit several people with batons.

An innocent bystander, a middle-aged Latina, more than likely a grandmother, was on the other side of the street and had apparently just happened upon the intersection after exiting a city bus. She was thrown to the ground by the LAPD. She was pushed and hit with the cop’s baton and thrown backwards down the sidewalk, landing hard on the ground.

She had nothing to do with the protest. She was an innocent passerby on the other side of the street. She can be seen in the photograph below sitting in tears on a bus bench. Above the law, police were allowed to act in a manner contrary to the civil society they are supposedly sworn to protect and serve.

All the action took place to the soundtrack of Minutemen cheers and calls. The violent migrant hunters were all too pleased to see their brothers in oppression crack a few members of the opposition and excessively brutalize an innocent grandmother. As much as the cops, the Minutemen love violence. It was never more apparent than in their reaction to the police brutality. Who could really be surprised?

An anarchist’s flagpole was confiscated by the LAPD despite the fact that Minutemen were allowed to carry much larger flagpoles. The flagpole was only 1 ¼ inches in diameter. It is suspected that the police believe that the flag, if flown, could be used to as a signal of sorts for other anarchists. Are anarchists really that organized?

The opposition rally was led by the ANSWER Coalition but was attended by many individuals and members of different groups.

After the police riot, the Minutemen marched down Hollywood Blvd. about 2 miles, turned around and came back to the original rally site. Most of the opposition was thwarted by the police and was not allowed to march along the sidewalk with the Minutemen, as was the case on May 21st when the Minutemen marched up Broadway in downtown Los Angeles.

The only ones who were able to follow the Minutemen were the opposition members that ended up on the other side of the police line after the cop riot.

However, the ANSWER crowd out-flanked the LAPD through the Hollywood streets and met the Minutemen at the corner of Wilcox and Hollywood shortly before 7. Police once again brutally suppressed the counter-protesters with wild swings of the baton and aggressive tactics. And once again the Minutemen cheered. This is the America they seek.

The Minutemen received very little positive reaction from the Hollywood Blvd. crowd. I’m sure they envisioned passersby joining them and marching with them as they fight for their country. By my estimation there was not once case of that actually happening.

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...looks like a smuck in that picture.

Borderraven said that Advocate(member of Stormfront White Nationalist community) arrived, but was asked by the police to leave.

http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/?p=1480

Here's where Watchdog posted a video where he and others have a laughing attitude about this. What I saw in that video was a female using a camera or some type to document the incident with the guy with the white shirt. Another guy in a black shirt assisted her, then tried to get her away. And of course the LAPD officers attacked them with their batons. Commies or not, that aside, if they're wrongfully charged with anything I will personally donate money for their defense.

How many were arrested?
How many brutalized?

http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_189230248.html

posted by the Nazi calling himself Watchdog, it's obvious those arrested did nothing to provoke arrest. The blonde woman did nothing but take a video of someone else being arrested, but she is viciously attacked with billy clubs, and the man who seeks to shield her is beaten as well. She is shoved aside, and he is arrested. He's Chicano. She's white.

We have a "Chicano" mayor, a former MEChista, who rides in parades with the Minutemen and lets his pigs do this to his people.

Between the parade, the pig brutality and the Farm and this, it's time the "mayor" paid a political price.

Let's take it home to his punk a#$

Hey, there were a ton of cameras floating about the area - - we need more documentation of this event!

I'm not sure if I wish I was there to film the incidents, or glad I wasn't there incase I could have been physically handled and arrested by the LAPD. If I was there, I would surely have gotten Advocate on camera again.

I guess in Los Angeles, you're only allowed to film police brutality without trouble if your name is Watchdog.

...some anarchists are in fact that organized. pull your head out of your sectarian ass.

http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=13516&pid=127787&st=200&#entry127787

LAPD put the BEAT DOWN on the ANSWER goons SO hard, it was enough to make you wince. I guess not everyone saw it, but it was a MELEE! ANY goon that got out of line with the cops by running thru them or whatever had the smack laid down on them with a night stick being weilded like an axe handle. It was amazing. The Che flag was in full running retreat at one point...bobbing up and down as it went down the sidewalk southward, and at high speed. The goons were routed and beat down no less then 3 or 4 different times, with arrests made all over the place. Amazing stuff,

"...some anarchists are in fact that organized. pull your head out of your sectarian ass."

I guess someone can't take a joke...

It's kind of lame to criticize Next Move who got this story with pictures up on LA Indy only a couple hours after it happened. I think you need to get your head out of your sensitive ass.

Those are not the same people from the South Central Farms. You think everybody look the same right Brooke "NeoNazi" Young. How's David Duke Ms. Young?

Is Goon a cross between gook and coon? No offense meant to anyone, but I see no difference in terms - all are meant to dehumanize a person to rationalize violence against them.

LAPD protects and defends the Minutemen. The Mexicans' Farm is bulldozed. King-Drew is systematically destructed. Homeless people are routinely rousted, and decent housing is out of reach for most people. Police kill joyriding Black 14-year olds and sleeping women. Wealthy whites cordon off the beaches. The people are literally beaten down, deprived of what little they have, tossed in jail like trash into an incinerator.

The next LA rebellion will be sooner, not later. And the Mayor will hide his chickenshit head in developers' beach sand until the Marines come back to save his sorry ass because some advisor told him he'd get to be President that way.

Mr. Mayor, we know you're reading this: your Brown skin will not save you.

Sounds like some LAPD had it out for the counterprotesters or ANSWER.

It's funny how the MM/SOS people will whine and cry about anything that doesn't go their way with the police. But when something like this happens, they flat out cheer for it on their SOS message board. I would they would be smart and not have Watchdog post that video clip of two people that got beaten for trying to get pictures or footage, and trying to get away. It may even look like the police them because of that. I didn't see one person on the SOS message board question the actions of the police. Back at the Sacramento rally at the capital, I think I was the only one who was concerned about the actions of the police against the counter protesters. And I was still a Minuteman at the time. I felt that if the police were out of line, I'd be ashamed to have their "protection," the kind of protection that let a guy pass out National Alliance/Vanguard literature mingling with the Minutemen(of course Gilchrist let that go, he even told me).

I meant I would think SOS would be smart and not have Watchdog post footage of the police being out of line. But they laugh at this and take joy in the physical abuse of people who don't share their same attitudes and opinions. So much for freedom of speech. The LAPD with their batons and weapons were the threatening factor in this event, not a bunch of angry protesters with bandanas on their faces.

I'm almost certain you weren't there. The Minutemen were having their rally at the time of the beatings and half of them weren't even paying attention to what was going on. The other half were doing what they usually do and that's interacting with the other side/ the opposition/ us.

At no time were any of the "peaceful marchers" threatened. The only ones threatened were the anti-minutemen counter-protesters and they were threatened by the cops.

But in your world the police are always right and those who get beat and arrested by the cops are always wrong. Your "community" has a different view of law enforcement so your perspective and your comments are understood in that context.

I think the pigs are to get ANSWER back because majority of the anti war ANSWER rallies were at hollywood blvd. the pigs have a great advantage because this time ANSWER did not have any permit. The pigs want to get back at ANSWER. what if the counter have called the NLG to watch over the rally. Will the pigs acted the same way? Proably not. as you can see on the video the pigs push the man and the woman against another pigs. so the pigs will get hostel towards them. you can see clearly that the pigs are out in control of the situation. I do want these pigs watching my back.
the sos/mmp does. the sos/mmp wants the good old days back.

>>>I do want these pigs watching my back.

I dont want these pigs watching my back.

Looks like fun was had by all!

Why do u still talking to border raven, Jammer?

Why not? I find him to be a nice guy to talk to. At least he wants to keep the Stormfront/Nazi types away.

Okay maybe that was a snide reply. Well, he and I sometimes talk online. Not as much lately. But also in person like we did in Irvine. It doesn't mean I'm collaborating with him on anything. He's not trying to persuade me to anything. We're just talking in a civilized manner. I guess people get tired or bored of yelling and verbal combat after a while. We've had a conflict before and I'm critical of his actions towards others in protest situations. But we can't get anti-social just for any reason we can think of.

Try this video. 1 minute mark. I can't help that the chant of LAPD by the minutemen had to make the black men in their numbers a little nervous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7u3L1gU0ng

The behavior and laughter of the Minuteman side and calls of "kick their ass" it sounded like, are truly despicable. If the LAPD had done worse and dragged an unconcious beaten female with blood spilling from an eye socket, I'm sure some of the Minutemen people would laugh at that. They say this is their last march but I wouldn't be surprised if they call for another one just to attempt to get more counter protesters beaten and arrested for their enjoyment.

Why was the second photo in this story removed?

Were there any non whites in the hate march?

damn the good luck : )

The whole event was organized by non whtes - you need to get your information somewhere other than the Soros Web site.

So now you're claiming SOS organizer Chelene Nightingale aka "Patriotic Dream" is non-white? Get your head outta your *ss before you DARE post here!!

I really hate to see anyone get hurt, but were the counter-demonstrators told not to march and to stay back? Did they do it anyway? This article's author writes: "However, the ANSWER crowd out-flanked the LAPD through the Hollywood streets..." If the Police tell you that you can't march and bullhorn around on the sidewalks or anywhere else cause you have no permit, then they mean it. "Out-flanking" the PD and yelling obscenities at them daring them to do something about it doesn't get you much sympathy with me. No one is above the law.

Most of the police brutality with a few exceptions occured at least a half an hour before the march began. The counter-protesters were not given any warning that the cops were about to explode with violence.

The "outflanking" occured 1/4 of the way through the march.

Most of the police brutality and beatings occured about a half an hour before the Minuteman march began. The crowd was given no warning that the police were about to erut in violence.

The "outflanking" occured about 1/4 of the way through the march.

I heard a voice bit of Jim Gilchrist speaking about the march on KFI radio today. He said that the counter protesters were gang members in ski masks and were throwing objects(I think he said bottles and something else). I haven't see any footage of that happening. I don't even recall any reports or posts from the Minuteman side about that. Gilchrist is know for exagerrating things and making stuff up.

Shooting and honest? Ah hahhahahahha

just because they're not white doesn't mean they don't prescribe to white-supremacist idealogy

> The whole event was organized by non whtes

The question was whether there were any non whites in the hate march. For some curious reason it's quite difficult getting an honest answer that addresses the question out of a certain class of people.

Yes Frederic Yes there were non-whites at the rally including the co-organizer Ted Hayes

CNN decided to cover the rally and police violence on Saturday with a report Monday night and to get "the truth" they brought on Jim Gilchrist for an unbiased analysis of events.

I swear Gilchrist looks like he is on something. His is so bug-eyed these days. So Anderson Cooper brings on the grand-wizard Jim Gilchrist for the "straight facts". Seemingly no attempt for balance was made. Why not at least get a police representative on there, after all they're the ones that went nuts.

Gilchrist tells Cooper that the counter-protestors numbered 2000, which is a total lie. I'd say 150 at the most. He says if the police were there the counters would have killed each and every one of the American patriots participating in the hate march. He said the march had to be stopped 3 times which is a lie. They just had to tighten the march up since there was no reason for a march of 200 people the drag for 2 or 3 city blocks.

Gilchrist also said on the radio that the counter protestors threw things at the Minutemen and cops which brought on the violent police response. Another lie. I did see one item thrown but it was thrown at police after they started beating demonstrators and innocent bystanders.

Gilchrist made no mention of the Minutemen cheering the police violence, of Minutemen provoking a response by coming onto the counter's side or of heavy-handed police "crowd control" tactics used which saw innocent bystanders beaten by police.

The guy is a lying sack of shit. CNN is worthless. And KFI is hate radio.

You can always tell when Gilchrist is lying because his lips move.

> Yes Frederic Yes there were non-whites at the
> rally including the co-organizer Ted Hayes

So the hate marchers managed to get one black guy to join the sea of white faces -- presumably someone who has given up his own class struggle for equality in the aftermath of New Orleans and wishes to deny equality for others.

Amazing.

I can't imagine any amount of money, any incentive, any motivation that would prompt me to march in hatred against another human being.

> He says if the police were there the counters
> would have killed each and every one of the
> American patriots participating in the hate march.

Got to smile. }:-} There is a marked behavioral trait among dysfunctional pathologies which seek to elevate the realm of mundane opposition into the titanic, cosmic, and threatening absurd.

By pretending that one's perceived enemies are out to murder you or hijack your brain through secret electronic mind control, one is attempting to raise one's own importance.

By pretending one's enemies are all powerful and out to kill you, one's survival is internalized as vindication that one is even more powerful and stronger than one's perceived enemies.

Pathetic hate mongers playing pretend on sidewalks can whip themselves up into believing they're facing down the evil, all powerful enemy, thus proving that the hate mongers have the Christian gods on their side and fight the fight of what's right.

The fact that the anti-hate counter protesters are non-violent, oppose hatred and bigotry, and don't pose a hazard (leave alone a threat) to anyone is ignored utterly in favor of the self-grandizing mythology.

Good grief. Human evolution has resulted (so far) in an overwhelmingly disgusting species.

My opinions only and only my opinions.

You know Frederic if you looked at the picture I posted you would see more than one Black American. More than Ted Hayes. Blacks were around 10% of the total. since they are 13% in the general population, its about 3% less than the national average. We also had representation by asians, american indians, and yes hispanics.

Now look at at prictures of the raza counter protestors. No blacks that I saw. Hispanics and a small contingent of whites

Next time you want to protest. Try getting a permit first. Then tell your moronic followers to get rid of the masks. You guys are about as gullible a bunch as I have ever seen.
Never in my life have i been so proud as to be part of an organization in opposition to the likes of you idiots. It truly is a pleasure.
Keep up the great work. You are doing our job FOR us.

Are you blind, Roger? On the 7th picture down, I can see an african american woman. oh wait you are blind. my bad

> if you looked at the picture I posted you would
> see more than one Black American.

Interesting notion. Normally one can't determine the affiliations of everyone in photographs unless there's labels. 'Can't imagine how you thought everyone would know there's more than one non-white hate monger depicted in the photograph.

Still, there's no accounting for why some people who've had to fight for equality and still don't get it would march in hatred against others who also don't have equality.

the black guy is there because he would love to have a job back home in new orleans with a construction co. rebuilding his city, for $25.00 an hr....but he can't, because so many illegal alians have saturated the industry, and rushed to that area (as they have most everywhere else.) that his chances of finding a job are somewhere around,.... zero.

DIG ???????

Frederic you ask, several times if there are any non-whites in the picture. There are and I post the pic

You then allude that there was only one vendido. wrong again

You wonder why I thought everybody would know that there are more than one black patriot in the group. Well since you didnt go to the rally, you'll have to depend on videos supplied courtesy of SOS.

One more time the rally was organized by Ted hayes a black activist who has worked in the LA area for 25 years. He invited SOS. Do I care that I went to a rally sponsored by a Black? Not all all, I'm not be as race obsessed as you (were there ant non-whites?) Again you dont get it.

Note to e Brown The black guy in the picture near Ted Hayes does not want to get a $25 buck an hour job in New Orleans. I guess you decided that because hes black so that must be his goal. He's a physician and specializes in Sports Medicne. He makes more in a week than you have ever seen. You are one more bigot like Frederic who dosn't get it.

I spoke with "czernel" from Save Our State about the Hollywood protest. Basically excused the behavior like "kick their asses!" as human behavior or whatever. He spoke about things being thrown at them, but said it was a few weeks ago. I don't recall him saying that about the Hollywood protest, like Jim Gilchrist claims. Otherwise this guy was cool to talk to.

On a side note, I never posted as "yumyumtree" on the Save Our State forums. It could be one of them doing it without the leaders knowing. If it's someone here, please don't.

I didn't bring any signs. I just went to talk to people and speak at the mic.

Now, back to the Hollywood protest thing. They're planning on counter protesting an ANSWER demonstration. Let's see if the LAPD pulls any double standards.

And if anyone from SOS is reading this, I was never an infiltrator. I was an honest member of SOS and Gilchrist's campaign until the problems happened.

The conversation with czernel was at Laguna Beach yesterday, not at Hollywood. I wasn't at the Hollywood event.

SOS is throwing together a short notice protest at the Laguna Beach day labor center this Saturday, July 15th. 10am.

Basically it's the SOS/MM saying, "things aren't going our way so we're coming back to cry about it some more."

If Barbara Coe is really worried about sex offenders, she should join the Preverted Justice group.

They need to know that their lies are being noticed.

There's also Lupe Moreno and the Hayes sidekick. There are non-whites in the MMP. The issue isn't race -- it's racism and hatred of illegal immigrants. It's related, but not the same thing.

WTF? There are more than Mexicans in NO. There are contractors and subcontractors and all kinds of bullshit going on there. The ONLY way to guarantee a high wage to residents of the city would have been to mandate it so that the residents would get a preference in hiring -- no hires, no contract, simple as that. It could have been done by the fed. They did NOT do it. The fed, aka GW Bush, is to blame on this one. He contracted things out to Haliburton. What a scummy president. It's true: George Bush don't like Black people.

> but he can't, because so many illegal alians
> have saturated the industry

Is that what the non-white hate marcher claimed? Or is this something you decided you'd make up on the fly all by yourself?

> There are non-whites in the MMP

And Catholics, Irish, and blacks in the Ku Klux Klan. Yes. I know.

Advocate, who post at Stormfront and SOS, was at the rally on the 8th. He was not in his white hard hat which is his signature wear at SOS rallies.

Did anyone get photos or footage of him? How long was it until someone got the police to ask him to leave?

You know all the video I have seen on this website was provided by an SOS member. If you saw only those I would agree that the police were pretty heavy handed. The couple videotaping who got whacked are a case in point. What you dont see on the tape are the police telling every one including the woaman with the camera to keep away because an arrest was in progress. They walked right by 2 police who shouted at them to keep away. They got within about 2 feet of a guy who was being arrested. The police shouted at them one more time to keep away but I guess they thought a cam corder gave them special powers. If you think you have some special right to stand over a cop while he's making an arrest, well I wish you luck.

I did see a policeman get spit on. I have a special prolem with that and It likely would be my career ending move to shoot the little bitch dead. He kept his cool and maintained his position. Most of the razas seem to have acting out issues. The police have far more control than any of the counterprotesters I saw.

The raza is there for one purpose to harrass the minutemen and as a side bar to harass the police and pretty much anyone who they disagree with. You and I both know the goal is to find the limits of harrassment. Good for you, you found it.

Roger, here is a video from this site NOT provided by an SOS member.

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/168035.php

The fact that you mix up your tenses makes me think you’re a cop and you may have even been there. You said: “It likely would be my career ending move to shoot the little bitch dead”. Were you one of the cops involved in the riot? Obviously you were there or at least it sounds like you were.

Were you one of the cops that threw the grandmother to the ground? Justify that. You probably weren’t if you were near the beatings on the north-west corner as she was beat on the north-east corner. I saw it with my own eyes and it was bullshit. You guys acted like a violent mob. And the thing is you have guns and clubs and the counter-protesters were unarmed. You acted like a bunch of violent punks.

I saw cops, one that comes to mind is Officer Cotti. Know him? He looked like a raving lunatic. He was practically drooling at the chance to beat people. If you know him, I’m sure you’ll agree.

Also, why did the bike cop ride directly into the two people in the video, knocking them into another cop and then pushing them toward other cops? Is that taught as a crowd-control technique?

You say the police had far more control than the counter-protester you saw. Well, that’s debatable, but it’s their job, they are supposed to represent the law. But what they really represent is the violent, on the street, arm of a violent state and violent society.

Do you guys get back to the station and laugh and joke about things like beating a 60-year old woman and rioting in the streets against a bunch of local activists? It is no wonder the divorce and suicide rate is so high among cops, you guys are sick.

I think what may have been discovered by the cops was the limit to their harassment. You’re gonna lose the lawsuit. Once again the LAPD will be successfully sued.

No, I am not nor have I ever been a member of the LAPD. I'm an engineer by trade. I was a cop long ago. Yes I was there with the SOS/minutemen.

I was a reserve police officer in the Idaho Falls Police departments about 15 years ago. I was also a reserve Army officer. It was very common to have 2 uniforms in the closet. When Desert Shield hit(soon to be desert Storm) came along. I had to resign from Boise PD. After that I never went back.

Do I see the Cops view nore easily than the demonstrator? Maybe. I do know what it's like to have to walk into the middle of a hot dispute where one and sometimes both parties are acting like children.

Yes police represent the law but that does not mean you will be respected as the law. No amount of training makes one appreciate being cursed or spit at. The police at this demonstration have the legal right and responsibility to keep the two groups separated. When there is a conflict between the two groups the protestors and not the counter-protesters should prevail. You pick a spot, maybe get a permit. The SOS will now be on the outside looking in. Thats how it is supposed to work. The police are supposed to use resonable force. When people charge a line after being told not to, with the obvious purpose of interferring with a lawful assembly, reasonable force just might be going up the side of your head with a night stick. Get a lawyer if you dont like it.

My experience with riot control is limited. We both know that a lot of the Raza group is not going to respond well to"please". Their own flyers used words like "disrupt, destroy, confront." Do you honestly think the raza side or the anarchists would give a damn what the police said if they were prohibited from using any force at all?

The bicycle officer charged the couple with the obvious intent of keeping them away from the other officer on the group cuffing somebody. The supreme court ruled you do have the right to observe police activity but the Police do have the right to a defensive perimeter. The couple went way past that by every established standard.

I know nothing about the woman, didn't see it, don't know anybody who did. Did you actually see it?

Don't know officer Cotti.

I'm not going to lose a lawsuit because once agin I'm not LAPD.

The divorce and suicide rates are indeed high. It might have something to do with situtions like for instance when a large group of people who curse you, spit at you , throw things chant bang drums and noise makers. All of this because they want to shut down a lawful assembly because they don't like the speaker.and it's your job to not let them.

I hope this clears it up.

Thanks for your response.

Yes I did see the woman get beat and thrown down by two cops and it was disgusting. It happened, defend it.

Since you are a former cop you should know that NO PERMIT is necessary for a demonstration or counter-demonstration that is taking place on a public sidewalk. The only time it is a problem is when the demonstrators are blocking traffic.

In this situation, the Minutemen had a permit to march in the street but the counter-protestors had an equal right to demonstrate on the sidewalk. Both the counters and the Minutemen had an equally lawful right to be where they were on Saturday.

You can explain the situation however you want to but nobody “charged the line”. Jim Gilchrist and everybody else on your side has completely exaggerated the situation to make it seem like you life was in danger. If that was the case why were so many of you mingling on our side? That’s the truth and I can show pictures to prove it.

To me it looked like the bike cop crashed into the couple as a means of “crowd control”. And he pushed them down and initiated the beating from which the couple will surely win a judgment. The law which you so vehemently defend will find in their favor.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

The Constitution gaurentees you the right to assemble. The police can not prevent you from having a political rally.
No problem there.
HOWEVER

The Minutemen/SOS/Ted Hayes decided to have a rally. They picked the time and the place. They notify the Police. The rally is on.

The Raza groups hear of the rally. They suddenly want to go to the same spot on the same day. They intend to bring noise makers and big signs. Their stated intent is to disrupt the Minutemen. They freely distribute flyers speaking of disrupting the original rally..

Sorry, your right to that spot on that day is secondary to the primary right of the minutemen to assemble. You are there only because the Minutemen are there. If the Minutemen decided to move their rally over a few blocks, the Razas would move too. The Razas DO NOT have the right to interfere with the Constitutional rights of other groups to assemble. The freedom of speech does not give one group the right to shout down others. Since some people think they DO have a right to blow whistles when others speak, the Police are now involved.

The demonstrators lives may or may not be at risk. But their right to peaceably assemble was certainly at risk. The only way to gaurentee both sides their rights is to keep them apart. But the guys with the Anarchy flags and bandanas tied on their faces are not at all interested in having their own rally, their stated goal to to keep the Minutemen from having theirs, so a confrontation wiith the police happens.

I have stopped trying to predict how courts will rule,especially in California. If the couple believes their constitutional rights have been abridged,they can of course tell it to the judge. I do find it ironic that some people, who's stated goal is to prevent the exercise of rights of others, are so quick to claim the constitution for themselves.

The counter-protesters were not going to the side where the Minutemen were doing their thing and disrupting anything. People were beat and arrested for making noise and trying to "disrupt" the Minutemen rally from across the street. They had every right to do so.

A permit is not needed for political protest on a public sidewalk! The counters were across the street. They were not trying to enter the Minuteman rally. That would have directly invited aconfrontation with police and that did not happen.

I know that the SOS/Lou Dobbs/Jim Gilchrist version of events is that the counter-protestors were "attacking" the Minutemen. That is simply not true. I did not see that while I was there and I have seen no video of that since.

Gilchrist is known for lying or at the least exaggerating about events. I know this because I have been to the same events and when he gets on national television he always exaggerates about things because he has his agenda and he think he can accomplish it by scaring white middle Americans.

You're using the Minuteman PR tactic of referring to those beat by police as anarchists. Why? There is no law against being an anarchist or a communist. Do you know the definition of anarchy?

All the anarchists and communists I know are technically as American as you white-flight outer-suburb dwellers. Among a lot of other things (genocide and slavery) this country was founded on political dissent and dissenting does not make someone anti-American. Being anti-capitalist does not make someone anti-American either as capitalism is an economic system and does anything but "guarantee happiness" for billions around the world.

Roger, there have been many protests involving these groups, over this issue, and nobody has been killed. I think the three times it got dicey were when a Nazi guy pulled a knife out, when Hal Netkin drove into a small crowd, injuring counterprotestors, and when Ted Hayes carried out a coordinated assault. (The MM and SOS side are the violent ones, as usual.)

More often, it's the police who are getting into a fight. Usually it's with the counterprotesters. A few times, the cops have targeted the MM or SOS. Generally, though, when there's a "police riot" it's against the counter protesters.

Your assertions about danger are mere conjecture, and disputed by two years of history. The "right wing" groups are the violent ones. The "left wing" groups are not; they are intimidating because there are more of them, and they are very loud.

>And Catholics, Irish, and blacks in the Ku Klux Klan. Yes. I know.

Well, maybe not... but there were Jews who supported Nazis, and there were gays who were in the Nazi party. One gay Nazi was the leader of the Brownshirts (SA, aka, Storm Troops, or the street gangs that supported Hitler).

He was eventually killed off by Hitler's men, to add to the bodycount of dead homosexuals gassed by the Nazis.

There were Jewish collaborators too. They'd report on their neighbors, or be "little Eichmans" who went along with the genocide program, and protected their own well being by selling out other Jews. They survived. Tomming and degrading themselves was a survival strategy. Their motto is something like, "it's better to live on your knees, than to die on your feet."

As someone who used to hang with the MM/SOS, I've found the MM/SOS to be the ones to seek confrontations while the actions of their opponents were in reaction. Joe Turner is still talking about bringing "pain" to Laguna Beach in regards to their scheduled protest there this coming Saturday. 1inchgroup once told a Lake Forest day labor worker he'll shooting him in the "f***ing face" if he pulls out a supposed knife(the existence of which I haven't seen, but won't deny), after exiting his truck to seek a confrontation. They go out of their way to try to blacklist businesses on the wehirealiens.com website. If they really cared about this issue from a law standpoint, all these actions are virtually ineffective and will hardly do anything. I got into it before putting enough thought and consideration into the issue. I'm not sure what's still compelling the rest of them to do this to this day. But I'm sure that some of them have invested so much time and effort into this and developed close relationships that they're emotionally stuck in their position and don't have the courage to follow their true judgement.

Joe Turner's post on the SOS forums:

"Clearly, Laguna Beach must endure financial pain associated with enforcement of our rallies and I believe we need to be much more aggressive with the residents who are using the facility."
http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=13790&st=0&p=128516&#entry128516

Financial pain to be exact. He's made his intention clear. If it's proven that the actions of the MM/SOS this Saturday has no effect on the overall operation of the day labor center(which I'm sure will be the case), maybe there are legal grounds to make the MM/SOS responsible for the costs of enforcement of the rallies. Again, Joe made it clear he intentionally wants to cost the city money.

I'll try this one more time.
The Bill of rights is the supreme law of the land or at least it is supposed to be. The Bil of rights gives all citizens the right to peaceably assemble. The US Supreme court has ruled on this a number of times with uncommon clarity.Basically;
Any group or individual may protest, picket or peaceably demonstrate at just about any place open to the public and the Supreme Court has your back.. The police know that any refusal to allow a demonstration is practically a certified denial of civil rights. The Hollywood demonstration cost somewhere in the neighborhood of a hundred thousand dollars and the city has no option but to pay it. The May 1st immigrant demonstration is said to have cost in the millions. Dosn't matter, the immigrant groups have a right to demand co-operation from the police.

The often ignored part of that is "peaceably" . You have the absolute right to make your case in a cililized fashion.

Counter-protesters have no such rights if their action interferes with te original protest. It does not matter where the harrassment comes from. If Delete the Borders wanted to have a protest and the Police blew air horns everytime they tried to speak, that would be a violation of Delete the Borders civil rights acording to the Supreme Court. If some Minuteman group blew airhorns at Delete the Borders demonstration, that would also be an actionable denial of the anarchists civil rights. As a practical matter by local police is would most likely be charged as disturbing the peace but the anarchists could walk into federal court and ask for relief from a violation of their constitutional rights.

Nobody expects you to be stand there head down when some nutcase is standing on the corner with the latest conspiracy theory. But there is a line the public can cross. where the courts say the nutcase had his rights abridged.
The line for heckling is not always clear. It is much clearer with noisemakers like drums and airhorns. You are not offering spirited counterpoint with an airhorn or a drum, you are trying to drown a voice out. In effect prevent somebodies peaceable protest from being heard by those who might otherwise want to hear it. You can not petition your governmnt for a redress of grievences, if somebody or anybody keeps banging on a drum when you try to speak. In overlapping protests the courts have a simple test. "Who wants to speak?" and "who is there to primarily drown someone out.?" Flyers and web posting made it abundantly clear the raza side was there to "disrupt" and "shut down" Their words.

Conclusion. The claim that you have the absolute right to go to the spot where somebody is protesting, with a much much louder protest is absurd and not supported by the law. You do not have the right to stand across the street and heckle if your heckling prevents the original protesters from conducting their protest in a peaceful way. The founding fathers wanted all voices not just the loudest one to have an equal chance of being heard.

"If it's proven that the actions of the MM/SOS this Saturday has no effect on the overall operation of the day labor center(which I'm sure will be the case),"

I guess you failed to count the number of pickups that last time that you personally picketed the DLC in Laguna. The count was 1 pickup from 7 am to 11 am, remember ? Or, are you not talking about the number of pickups when you mean the overall operation of the DLC ? Do you just mean that it stayed open ?

As for the costs associated with protesting, any police action taken that day for whatever reason can not be tagged on to protestrs for just standing around on a sidewalk. If that were the case, groups like ANSWER and other anti war groups that regularly do things in NY, DC and such 1-- times bigger than in So Cal would be long gone.

Alright, maybe there are no legal grounds. Whatever. As for less pick ups during any past protests, any pick ups that were turned away probably came back the next day. So big deal. The workers still get paid so they can eat, which is a good thing.

FROM THE ACLU

Can I stage a counter protest at an event supportingsomeone whose policies I oppose?

Yes. The First Amendment guarantees the right to “petition the government for a redress of grievances.” It is constitutionally protected to attend public rallies and speeches and to carry protest signs to demonstrate opposition to the speaker and/or the policies being advocated by the speaker.

ALSO SEE

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/Assembly/topic.aspx?topic=civil_rights


The Supreme Court issued several rulings protecting civil rights advocates from criminal charges for engaging in First Amendment-protected activity. In the 1963 decision Edwards v. South Carolina, the high court struck down the breach-of-the-peace convictions of 187 African-American students who marched to the South Carolina Statehouse carrying signs with messages such as "Down with Segregation."

Saying the "circumstances in this case reflect an exercise of these basic constitutional rights in their most pristine and classic form," the Court ruled that the government could not criminalize "the peaceful expression of unpopular views."

In its 1961 decision Garner v. Louisiana, the court overturned the disturbing-the-peace convictions of five African-Americans who engaged in sit-ins at an all-white café counter in Baton Rouge. In his concurring opinion, Justice John Harlan wrote that a sit-in demonstration "is as much a part of the free trade of ideas as is verbal expression."

Harlan wrote that a sit-in was entitled to the same level of First Amendment protection as "displaying a red flag as a symbol of opposition to organized government," a form of expression that the Supreme Court protected in the 1931 case Stromberg v. People of California.

.... UNC’s Blanchard said, "NAACP v. Alabama established the right of people to join together to advocate causes even in hostile environments."

Counter protesting is a right. A group can't expect to silence another by paying for a permit. The permit isn't ownership of the public area they're permitted to demonstrate. If they want to own a medium, granting them the ability to not let another group have a voice(for one reason or another), they should get their own radio show, station, website, local cable show, whatever.

"Conclusion. The claim that you have the absolute right to go to the spot where somebody is protesting, with a much much louder protest is absurd and not supported by the law. You do not have the right to stand across the street and heckle if your heckling prevents the original protesters from conducting their protest in a peaceful way. The founding fathers wanted all voices not just the loudest one to have an equal chance of being heard."

The issue of using amplified voices and other means to be louder than permitted demonstrators is a complicated matter, I'm sure. If there's an attempt to completely block out a demonstrator's voice, yes I think that is not appropriate. Whether or not that was the case in Hollywood, I'm not sure because I wasn't there and I don't know the strategies of all those involved with counter-protesting. I'm not defending the counter-protestors in an unconditional manner.

I know there are questionable tactics on the part of some of the masses of people who oppose the Minutemen/SOS. And there are some people of questionable character. I'm not trying to turn a blind eye to this. I'm simply not going to drive everywhere and try to figure everyone out.

My intention used to be to speak out on my being kicked out of the Gilchrist campaign after me, Debbie Sattler, and others found out about a couple people from the Stormfront White Nationalist community working in their campaign.(one did a lot of computer IT work, but Steve Eichler acknowledged the TWO being removed from the campaign when speaking to me on the phone, a few hours before Mary Parker Lewis called me and kicked ME out for who knows what exact reasons...)

My intention was also to speak out on other reasons for my departure from the Minutemen/SOS. One reason is the issue of protesting against day labor pick up sites. I used to join in on the protests as a quick reaction, which is probably expected from newcomers to the issue, before giving it plenty of thought and consideration. Eventually I grew uncomfortable with it and I explained this to the MM/SOS/Gilchrist participants way before I was kicked out of the Gilchrist campaign. I still have all the emails saved that show that this has gone on for quite a while. The reason why I'm supporting day labor is not because I was kicked out of the campaign. It's because many workers may not have a choice, according to their persona situations, and because the general idea is work and labor. I'm not sure what will happen with those here against immigration laws, whether it's deportation, amnesty, work visas, citizenship, etc. But whatever happens won't happen right away and the ones here against immigration laws need to eat to live. If they're willing to work for it, I know this can be managed in good means. That is why I'm okay with organized day labor centers(and why I think Lake Forest, CA needs an organized day labor center).

I still continue those, but it's been going for a while and my time is limited. I'm only active at events in the Orange County area near where I live, such as Irvine and Laguna Beach. I won't go to Los Angeles or Baldwin Park or Hollywood or other places that far. I'm not being paid to do this nor do I want to be. I prefer to be independent from that.

My more immediate interest and angle is now the BEHAVIOR of the Minuteman/SOS participants. It's a matter of concern as well as curiosity. I'm not a pyschology major, but I'm sure someone who is could have a field day with all this.

Again, my time is limited so I'm only observing the MM/SOS participants and supporters when they're active in areas near where I live. I don't see anything weird or odd about this. For example, if someone is successful in quitting an addiction to a certain illegal drug and decides to make a study of it afterwards. That person doesn't necessarily lack credibility in doing so just because he/she used to be involved in what is being observed. Infact it can provide a lot of insight. Another example is John Walsh eventually becoming the host of America's Most Wanted after his son was killed. I'm not comparing my situation with his, but you can see a general pattern there. Another example is a victim of identity theft learning how to deal with this issue and informing the public with the knowledge.

I've been asked why I don't do the same with those who oppose the Minutemen/SOS. Again, I can't cover everything and everyone involved in this issue. I don't have the time, resources, or interested in doing something like that. There are other people who do that. I'm not affiliated with any groups or organizations that oppose the Minutemen/SOS. I've interacted with some people such as John Earl and others as a matter of communication and understanding. But I'm not affiliated with them. I'm not a member of the Green Party, ANSWER coalition, National Council of La Razza, or any other group out there. Just because I'm not observing them in the manner I'm observing the Minutemen/SOS doesn't mean I'm officially supporting them or all their actions.

Again, I won't take any payment for what I'm doing. Being paid would certainly change what I do in ways I wouldn't want. There's also the issue of answering to someone like a group member answers to a leader. I don't answer to anyone in this way. Not even in a partnership manner. I'm completely independent from this.

My focus is very specific and I only have time and interest for that. It may appear biased to people of certain mindsets. But I'll explain this when given the chance to. I'll explain it in person to those I observe if they would please listen to me.

By the way, any MM/SOS participants and supporters out there, yes you can talk to me. You can talk to whoever you want. Don't let people like Eileen Garcia or whoever tell you who you can and can't talk to. I'm not out to manipulate people's words or twist things around.

I spelled Raza wrong, I meant Raza, not Razza. And where I typed persona, I meant personal.

When I use the word angle, I don't mean to say I come in with a pre-planned story or view regardless of what I observe. I don't do that. I just present the footage I have. So far I do that on youtube.com under the username silascode. The word "angle" may indicate a work of fiction or a decided point of view/argument. Actually I think a better term or phrase for what I'm doing would be "focus" or "focal point," even if those aren't the exact words used to describe this. I let the camcorder do the word and the footage speak for itself.

And as an even more focused point of interest, I observe and film behavior that is beyond what's considered normal such as yelling, arguing, hostility, excited behavior, etc. Such footage will also show some people explain their point of view and I think its a good addition to presenting what I'm observing.

Sorry if my arrangement of words isn't the most organized. I expect to type this more than once and will surely fine tune it.

We the People ourselves must wake up and stop wasting time with peace rallies and protests. We need to learn the same tactics and procedures to dismantle the dominant system by ANY means necessary. Call it what you will. Non-violence simply makes us all targets. Train ourselves and our children not the same, but BETTER, fighting tactics to defend ourselves and our God-given liberties from the thugs called "police." Beat them at their own game. Don´t hestitae to resort to dragging THEM out of their beds in the middle of the night, frightening THEIR families, confiscating THEIR property, smearing THEIR reputations, ruining THEIR lives. Let them find no safe haven wherein to shield themselves. Why do we complain about the abuse of power in what was once OUR country? BECOME POWER OURSELVES.

And, um, when exactly do you intend to put your words into action?