BURBANK, January 21, 2006--Minuteman Don Silva, also of Save Our State, called the showdown. He named the site--Burbank's new Home Depot. He brought in the TV crews, and radio and newspaper reporters. He pleaded with every minuteman in southern California to attend. The neo-Nazi group VDARE posted a notice of the event on their blog.

Silva managed to raise sixty-five people. He lost his "battle at the black gate of Mordor," as he overdramatically called the protest, when ninety hastily assembled and loosely organized Los Angeles-area counterprotestors brought the minutemen's invasion of Burbank to a standstill.

The protestors took the northeast and southeast corners of the Home Depot entrance. The minutemen and Save Our State clustered on the southwest corner. The police claimed the northwest corner for their staging ground. The Burbank day laborers, who usually number upward of twenty-five, reportedly started the day with only fourteen on hand. The rest had scattered to the streets of Burbank to find work.

By 6:30 a.m., long before the minutemen had brushed their teeth, Mexica Movement were in place with their signs declaring indigenous ownership of the continent and demanding that the colonizers return to Europe, grounding the counterprotestors in the long history of racist oppression in Anahuac.

AnswerLA brought a vocal contingent, ready with banners, bullhorns, and chants. World Can't Wait and individual socialists, anarchists, and others added their voices and noisemakers to the cacophony.

The National Day Laborers Organizing Network arrived by 8:30 a.m. and held their banner resolutely by the day labor center's driveway, in solidarity with their brothers.

By 9:00 a.m. Danza Cuauhtémoc took their place across the street from the day laborers. As they crossed the two-lane road, a roaring cheer rolled down the lines of counterprotestors. The danzantes' pounding drums and rattles all but drowned out a Cuban minuteman on an oversized bullhorn, who tried to threaten people with arrest for traveling with undocumented passengers.

Determined counterprotestors alternated between chants and drums for two and a half more hours.

Meanwhile, SOS and the minuteman waved their flags and raised signs that displayed the confusion in their message and the splits in their ranks: some derided Home Depot, others pointed to the Burbank City Council, some attacked employers, while others proclaimed themselves "Latinos for Legal Immigration" and "Veterans Against Open Borders."

Passing Burbank residents who took note of the protest from their cars and trucks, almost to a person honked and waved for the day laborers. Apparently, SOS has seriously misjudged Burbankians.

Unlike a Glendale protest earlier this month, the police kept the counterprotestors away from the minutemen's corner, even separating chance encounters between individuals as we walked to the protest site. On the other hand, counterprotestors reported that "any white guy with a camera" had free passage through the counterprotestors' ranks, some making it as far as the danzantes before counterprotestors blocked the cameras with their hands, signs, and a Mexican flag.

The media was there en masse, as arranged by Silva, and counterprotestors took full advantage of the opportunity to get their message out. Multiple interviews were ongoing as the sun warmed up the street. Reporters were eager to interview and film; it seemed as if any counterprotestor who wanted press attention could get it.

Apparently, minutemen in general are less tied to their watches than SOS, which typically makes their escape at the stroke of 11:00 a.m. This time, some of the racists hung out for an extra forty minutes, until the counterprotestors seized the moment and swarmed the minutemen's corner. The remaining minutemen backed down the street in small groups, dogged by counterprotestors demanding "Go home, racists." A lone SOSer remained, until Silva, driving a cab, swung around, picked him up, and sped away.

As I looked around, a day labor organizer, an anarchist, and an indigenist were still talking to the media. One anarchist commented to another, "That was rad!" Her friend responded, "Let's go get lunch and celebrate."

A laborer in the passenger side of a cab rode off from the labor center with his employer. I greeted him with "Buenas dias." Only seven day laborers remained.

error

Me and my friends really appreciate your posts on LA-IMC. Thanks a lot.

Way off reality, even for you, Leslie.

You guys were ferociously outnumbered from 8AM, when SOS showed up, until well after 10, when most of your hung-over little band climbed out of their PJs, turned of their Saturday cartoons, and hitched rides to the site.

You got outnumbered, outshouted, and just plain spanked yesterday. Your people knew it, so do ours, and so did the media.

Home Depot "suits" were livid at the hit they were taking, and as you were prevented by excellent and strictly neutral policing from the usual thuggery and violence that's your movement's stock in trade, having to rely on logic left your side at a vast disadvantage.

We do thank you for showing up, because when the "Burbankians" saw what you folks are about, like they did over and over and over yesterday on Fox Live, your days of being listened to are numbered, and illegal alien centers will go the way of the dodo bird.

SOS outnumbered you this time. Admit it.

I do hope that you will bring more with you next time. The more people we can gather in front of a Home Depot the better it is for SOS. It doesn't matter if the person has a sign stating "White People Go Back To Europe" or a sign that says "Shop At Lowes."

The goal for these protests is to create as big a scene as possible and give home depot a black eye. We can tackle day labor pick-up sites with just a few people and video camers but for these protests we need bodies with bullhorns. You guys have always been a great help.

It was nice to chat with you Leslie. Maybe we can talk more next time.

Speaking of DoDo Birds, your mental capacities are extinct.

By the way, DoDo, I don't think people on our side wear pjs. Aren't you jealous?

You guys probably wear itchy pjs, sort of like the Mormon hard liners, right?

Like Leslie said, the Mexica Movement was out before you guys even brushed your teeth. Have you brushed them yet?

By the way, even your own frickin website's forum admits you were outnumbered. Your claims of being on top and outnumbering us are pitiful. Talk about someone being in denial!

DoDo, do get help.

been able to, in one year, put together as many "on the street" as a well funding; years old professional protest machine like ANSWER. Yeah, I hate to break it to all you want to be rebels, but you are protesting for The Man.

Why was Rafeal wearing a mask? Like we won't know it is him? He is like 3 feet all and only wears black.

Make the white anarchists go accross the street so you had brown on one side and white on the other?

The SOS site says it was 100 sosers and 150 counters.

The numbers here say 75 sosers and 100 counters. Roughly the same proportions.

The SOS were outnumbered, obviously, but this time, it wasn't over 5 to 1 as they usually are. This was clearly the best showing SOS ever had, and one of the worst that the counterdemonstrators ever had. (Shame on me -- I didn't go to this one.)

It's like when the Lakers play the Clippers. Nobody ever expects the Clippers to win, but when they get close, Clippers fans are happy.

When people like watchdog lie about the facts (that even SOS state), it only serves to make their side look dishonest. I hope someone editing the wikipedia article sees this, and from it can evaluate the usefulness of watchdog's comments on the wikipedia article.

I was there and you weren't. You are quoting a 100 - 150 figure that was inaccurate and how that guy came to that conclusion is just plain weird. A more accurate figure was around 70 -80 Mexica racists/communists/anarchists and about 100-110 Patriotic Americans. That realistic figure was stated numerous times on the SOS website and you are choosing to ignore it. I also have the videotape to back it up.

You can argue about who won and who lost who by who had the most protesters but the clear loser at the end of the day was Home Depot. It was a bad day for them so our objective was met with all of your help.

Drumsme7:

100 of us vs 150 of them? FANTASTIC!
Our numbers are growing!
Congrats patriots!
Can't wait to hear the other reports from the "frontlines

Maybe you're right about the numbers, but, I trust Next Move's numbers more.

I've been going into the HD after these events, and, they are always very crowded. The last time, the lines were so long (and the wait for help was so long) that I ended up going to another hardware store. (The HD in Alhambra, actually. It wasn't crowded.)

I think the demos become some kind of magnet for the local lookie-loos, who end up doing some shopping.

I am familiar with that post, Chivo. Drumsme7 wasn't there either. He lives in Chicago. His number was incorrect and it was corrected. Maybe you would like to dig up those posts?

Here in Indy Media-land where the sky is green and the grass is blue we can actually debate about whether protests are good for a business. Hilarious! I am certain most business' would rather not have a hundred or more protesters in front of their store.

Not that numbers mean anything since as SOS has always said victory is not about having more people show up but if it did matter this is where I got the SOS claim of 100 SOS vs. 150 anti:

"100 patriots vs. about 150 open borders radicals"
Raymond, SOS site

http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=7186&st=40

Silva's numbers are always off a little bit.

When do numbers not matter?

When SOS is outnumbered. Then, they mean nothing. Then, it's all about invisible influence.

When do numbers matter?

Anytime there are more than fifteen of these podunk racist yahoos.

Do public opinion poll numbers matter? Clearly not - if they did there would be no war in Iraq.

What matters is this: When the intelligence agencies sum up how stiff the resistance will be if they try to impose new levels of repression.

On that front, we've won every time out, and SOS, with its aging clowns and know nothings, just doesn't get it.

"fair and balanced."

(Yeah I know,
that's the Faux News line..)


If only more Europeans (white people) were like Leslie,
the world would be a much better place.

I read your account of the Burbank Home Depot.

Have you attended a Burbank City Council Meeting? Citizens at the meeting spoke out against the Home Depot DL Site 30 to three. Repeatedly.

Here is what is interesting. Groups like ANSWER- I thought - would oppose a big, money-grubbing U.S. corporation like Home Depot. However, you have liberals and open border activists standing with BIG MONEY - demonstrating FOR a corporation! Doing the bidding of a big corporation!

In addition, I found many mixed messages coming from the open borders side. Racist signs. Flags from foreign lands. Vulgarisms. Profanity. It was a hodgepode.

Minutewoman, I concur, the open borders side, needs a lesson in problem solving.

It is best if you work the problem, and not let the problem work you.

SOS, CCIR, Minutemen, came out to protest against the corporate Giant Home Depot, the illegal aliens, and the employers who suck off the underground economy, while the open borders side, came out to project their energies against us, which we know did no good for their cause.

They are so owned, they are pathetic.

We called a rally, and they came out to help us. Then Leslie spins her propaganda. Leslie, please less lies.

:)

BR

You're doing the bidding of white supremacists.

John K you support greedy corporations - you are standing on the side of corporate America's darling - Home Depot.

White supremacy?

Corporations do not know a skin color.

In today's market, they stand for unbridled greed - and from what I can observe, your side is promoting the money-grubbing employer AND greedy corporations in the modern day slave trade - known as the day laborer site.

I would think open border activists would be in a stampede to shut down these worker abusing day laborer sites!

Border Raven - you speak words so wisdom! Veritable pearls of wisdom drop from your lips BR!

I see that there's still a notion that the number of people who turn out dictates who "won" and who "lost."

The fact is that any time racist scumbags are opposed, the good guys win. It's only when white supremacists and other racists are allowed to spew unopposed that the racists win.

Personally I've come to the conclusion that the Mexica Movement is roughly equal to the SOSMM, but I'm always glad to see that SOSMM are profoundly out numbered and out witted everywhere they show their faces.

My opinions only and only my opinions.

That's kind of amusing. ANSWER comes out to oppose racist hatred, as is part of their charter, and some unfortunate individual wants to pretend that what ANSWER is really doing is supporting Home Depot. Good frocking grief. (That's Republicanism, folks.)

Here's a clue: Home Depot isn't an issue. Race hate is the issue. Human rights is the issue. Civil rights is the issue. The ANSWER Coalition couldn't care any less than it already does about companies that racists parade around in front of -- it's irrelevent whether they're parading outside of Home Depot, Kentuckey Fried Chicken, or a gasoline station.

It's like the Republican IQ that tries to pretend that if you oppose this fascist regime's rape, torture, murder, genocide, and treason, you're some how against America. If the ANSWER Coalition opposes race hatred, they're some how in favor of whatever corporation's nearest.

I'm sorry, but the racists just are too, too amusing. With the usual Republican IQ, that's understandable. (No offense intended, I'm sure.)

My opinions only and only my opinions.

You oppose illegal immigration but somehow YOUR reasons are okay but EVERYONE else is a racist.

Everyone Fred? Except you.

How can this be?

the counter protesters that divided along color lines?

long standing professional protesting group.

They give aways signs and rides and can barely match the SOS numbers.

1. You assume that HD supports these sites, but, I think they view it as the cost of doing business. It's a way to regulate an informal economy that threatens to saunter over into the neighborhood to take a leak in the front yard.

2. Day work is not "slave trade". Slaves don't have the freedoms that the workers have. The day laborers are free people, even though they have second-class status. To call them "slaves" is hyperbole, and also unfair to the people who really *are* slaves, toiling in brothels, sweatshops, and as nannies and domestics. (Note that slaves work in steady jobs for one owner.)

3. If day laborer sites are shut down, the workers will end up in temp agencies, and then, they'll be more like slaves, and making minimum wage, too.

Workers who are employed by temp agencies are alienated from each other. They cannot talk about who is good and bad, how much people are paying, about who got ripped off, and about who the best workers are. Without this information, the people doing the hiring have an edge over the workers.

Leftists would (or should) never shut down any place where workers congregate to seek employment. That is where they (should) organize, so workers may get better pay.

4. Corporations still know skin color, but, the point that they try to treat people equally is well taken. Despite corporate racism, they are quicker to see that $1 = $1, no matter who has it. Many people would sacrifice a dollar to push their agenda. I'm sure some folks here have stories about going to a "nice" store in a "nice" neighborhood, and not getting any service at all. "Oh, we're all out of those."

Escuchame mentirosa Minutewoman:

The idea that you were out there protesting a corporation is ridiculous.

You were out there protesting workers- migrant workers - and making sure they had nothing to eat for the day.

You want me to prove the point? Well, I will if you want me to or not.

If the migrant workers went away, and Home Depot remained, you'd be happy.

If Home Depot went away and the migrants stayed, you'd be unhappy.

1. The Burbank site, in particular, will be supported by HD by a cost of doing business, of $94,000* annually.
Yes, in one sense the DLCs do provide an avenue for regulation by the governments. In another they serve to attract more immigrant laborers, like a gold rush.

2. It is not slave trade, but closer to it than a temporary agency, in some respects. There are no written contracts in the underground economy, no redress of wrongs, no arbitration, no Small Claims court.
Day laborers face many dangers when they take a ride in a stranger's vehicle. And there is no record of who took them, and no witnesses, to come forward.

3. Not really, in temp agencies, if the worker is eligible for employment per the DHS I-9 Form, the agency will keep records of each worker, and who hires them, what the market rate of labor is.
Remember: Labor owes no loyalty to the employer. Labor can sign up with many agencies.

The contracts, allow a 90-day period for the employer to elect to hire the worker full-time. The employer can even buy the contract of the worker, after the first month -- as happened to me. Also, the employyee can apply directly with the employer after 90-days.

I was earnig $9.16, an hour, in October 1998 when I was laid off in Carlsbad, after 4.5 years. I signed with a few agencies. The lowest I worked for an agency was $6.00, in November 1998, and that was a 4-hour general labor job. I only took the job because I had turned down a previous job. Four people, 1,025 cases of Australian wine, from a sea-tainer, in 2-hours to meet a loading dock deadline. Then we assembled sampler cases for outside sales representatives, for 2-hours. That was in Vista, but I later relocated to the OC. My lowest in OC was $9.00, but it was temporary. Most of my jobs are $12 hourly, but I have earned $17 doing maintenance. Compare that to the $35 per hour I charge to fix a PC.

The stories I can tell about the places I have worked for, some great others nightmarish.
The people doing the hiring know the market. Today, I sent a resume for a job offering $18 an hour (negotiable). I'll ask for $15 and stand a better chance of getting the job, but at $17 an hour, I'll clear $,1000 monthly (my military retirement) and be able to pay off my debts, in two years, or less.

"Leftists would (or should) never shut down any place where workers congregate to seek employment. That is where they (should) organize, so workers may get better pay. "

I agree, because there is a chance of regulation, and enforcement of laws/codes. In fact I was thinking of organizing the workers at the DLCs and demanding $15-$20 per hour. Imagine the revolution in labor that would create. The ripple would be felt like a tsunami, by the time it hit Wall Street. Screw the Minumum Wage, overnight landscape workers, pizza delivery persons, grocery baggers, and waitresses, would rise up and demand their cut of the pie.

4. I went to a store, and didn't get any service, so I left, it was Home Base. Funny they're gone.

*$94,000, at Grayhound Bus Lines one-way adult fare, Burbank to San Ysidro, $18, would help reunite:
-- 5,000 immigrants with their families, each year.
-- 416 a month.
-- 96 a day.


Sorry for the rant.

:)

Day Laborers at the Centers make 10 dollars per hour. It's enforced.

That's more than the pay for millions of Angelenos, 42% of whom live in poverty.

You want to take that away, and you have the nerve to talk about YOU, of all people, "organizing" the very people you want to deport by the hundreds of thousands.

What sick hypocrisy.

$10 an hour?

Is that paid by check or cash?
Is it reported or kept under the table?
Are the proper deductions made?

These day labor centers may be promoting illegal activies, and robbing our economy of funds, while allowing greedy employers to get rich off the backs of the POOR laborers. Is this something, you might care about? Probably not, hypocrite.

BTW -- If anyone, and your racist "Angelenos" included, are living in poverty:
1. It is not my fault, and I refuse to accept any responsibility or feel any guilt or sympathy for them.
2. It is my concern, if they are illegals, they can deport their asses, and save me the time and trouble.
3. If they are sucking off the taxpayer funded welfare teat, they can wean themselves off or I'll choke them off of it.

Is there anything else, I can help you with? Perhaps you need an edcuation? Just show up at any public school tomorrow, and we'll accommodate you, at taxpayer expense.

:/
BR

> You oppose illegal immigration but somehow
> YOUR reasons are okay but EVERYONE else
> is a racist.
> Everyone Fred? Except you.
> How can this be?

Pay attention, rightard. I oppose illegal immigration because it isn't fair to those who subject themselves lawfully to the process. I oppose white supremacists because I oppose hate.

You employ the fatal logic fallacy known as "begging the question" -- typical dishonesty that's expected from your ilk. Specifically, not everyone else is a racist, just the vast majority of SOSMM / AN / NV / SF / KKK / et al.

And yes, denial about what motivates these people is silly. We can all read their web sites quite easily on our own to see what they stand for and what drives them to hate.

My opinions only and only my opinions.

> The idea that you were out there protesting
> a corporation is ridiculous.

Yeah, it _is_ extreamly obvious what these SOSMM et al. people actually stand for and what it is that motivates them.

This reminds me of the homophobic bigots who loudly proclaim they don't hate gays, they hate the "sin" of being gay. It's like proclaiming one doesn't hate negros, one hates the "sin" of being a negro. The absurdity of such proclamations is evidenced in such people's rhetoric, their web sites, and their actions.

Amusingly I see that the SOSMM et al. have started holding protest signs proclaiming their love and desire to enrich migrant human rights and quality of life by pretending to expose the the slavery of their victims.

See, it's not the SOSMM et al. that are attacking, assaulting, and violating people's human and civil rights. No, it's the people who are hiring the people who are some how the bad guys.

It's funny, and it's not funny. If I were out there on the day labor lot, these SOSMM people wouldn't automatically proclaim me "illegal" because of my white face. They wouldn't play pretend that any individual who hires me is a slave driver.

We've got record percentages of poverty in this Republican recession and the San Gabriel Valley ranks #4 as the county with the highest number of homeless people. The number 1 ranked county for poverty is up there in the Northern sections of Central California among the fertile agriculture lands.

And that doesn't include the people who are in the United States who are here illegally who don't respond to polls.

What kind of sick Republican works to deny hungry people even a few hours of back-breaking work just because of the people's skin hue?

"They're stealing our jobs" is an amusing excuse.

Funny but I don't see a lot of white High School drop outs doing the difficult and unsavory jobs of scrubbing toilets and mopping floors. I see Hispanic people -- good people -- working hard to survive and to feed their families.

It's not fair that some of them jumped ahead of the years-long waiting line, absolutely true, but they're here -- they're human beings, just like the SOSMM people who hate them.

What I see the SOSMM et al. people trying to do is snatch food from the mouthes of people. That's vastly more unfair than sneaking across the border.

My opinions only and only my opinions.

BR: "BTW -- If anyone, and your racist "Angelenos" included, are living in poverty:
1. It is not my fault, and I refuse to accept any responsibility or feel any guilt or sympathy for them. "

Dude, you are so confused it's not funny anymore. You say this but forget the fact that the taxpayer supported and still supports your unemployed ass with your Navy pension. We accept responsibility for your lazy ass. We feed you!

The US Military is the biggest waste of a socialist program in the world. It gives worthless sacks of shit like you a pension.

How about you get off our "welfare teat" and start weaning yourself you big baby. Stop your whining and shut the fuck up!

I am still astounded here.

The open borders crowd has an unholy alliance with the greedy employer in regard to the day laborer crisis.

An employer can pull into one of these modern slave laborer camps, pick up as many foreign nationals as he wants, work them all day - THEN NOT PAY THEM.

THAT is slavery! These corrupt employers are modern day slave traders.

Now, you - I suppose - are going to argue that these corrupt, greedy employers WILL pay the foreign nationals they are abusing.

OK - where is your proof?

Where is your proof that employers are paying these day laborers? There is no record. Only the greedy employer and the modern-day slave know.

Manpower agencies are not perfect BUT the worker is protected. He may have money taken from his paycheck BUT he has rights that way. He is paying his share of payroll taxes - to help fund his community AND not standing on street corner waiting to be abused.

I am astounded that open border activists promote this abuse of foreign nationals.

What if it was guaranteed that day laborers would be paid a reasonable wage? It seems your only problem here is that they might get stiffed?

If someone stiffs you for pay, you tell other people about it, so they won't work for the guy.

Part of doing business is avoiding situations like that. You're always going to get screwed at least once, maybe more. That is just how it goes, when you're doing gigs. I don't know of a single person doing day or short term work that hasn't gotten ripped off at least once, including me. (What you're supposed to do is raise the rate a bit, and then, later on, give the client a discount. Aside from that, you want to establish a relationship with several good clients.)

Slavery is when you have a single employer, who regulates your freedom.

Arguably, some of these people are paying slavery wages, and the day workers are "wage slaves". But, by that standard, Burger King is a slaver. Wal-Mart is a slaver. If you're going to protest low wages, protest McDonalds.

I cannot prove that people are getting paid, but, the fact that people continue to participate in the centers is sufficient indication that people are getting paid. Nobody voluntarily works the same situation without pay.

(Well, that is, nobody works without pay but anarchists, members of ISO, or other leftist sects... but that's a whole other issue.)

The idea that temp agencies are all fair is absurd. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. The good ones might have bad offices. A good office might be staffed by someone who's going to give you a hard time. The only thing you know for certain is that they are taking a nice fat cut of your pay for administration purposes.

Pete Nice,

I consider my military retirment pay, as overtime pay, for the many extra hours, spent on watches, after my 40-hour work week.

In the early years a watch might be 2-4 hours walking around a hanger or flight line, later it was a 4-hour watch as a driver, or roving watch, then came the 8-hour watches, at a desk with a phone. I have worked 8-on with 16- off, and 4-on 4-off, 8-on 8-off, 16-on 16-off. Once I worked two back-to-back 12-hour shifts, because I had expertise on an aircraft system.
In 1979, My 12-hour shift ended at 7:00am, the ship docked at 9:00am, I was responsible for offloading my squadron's gear. Due to seniority of CO's we were last to be offloaded, I didn't get off work, until 9:00pm.

I spent 20-years of my life in the military, so smart asses like you could speak freely, and stand under the USA flag.

I feel I earned my retirement pay, as did every veteran who served long enough to retire.

I will not accept, from any side-stepping beach creature, such as yourself, any question of me deserving retirement pay. I signed the contracts, and I served my country proudly, for 20 years.

GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU FUCKING SAND CRAB!

BR

BRaven... I too am former military (US Navy airdale, like you.) Leftists pond scum only want pensions for WalMart employees and union thugs... not military personnel. These are the same social turds who claim that 'they support the troops'.

I think Pete's point was that your military pay and pension are being paid from taxes, the "public teat" or whatever you call it. When we pay taxes, we pay for your pension.

It's hypocritical that you berate people for doing what you've already done.

First, I don't earn a gov't pension because I left the military after 8 years of honorable service.

Lets hear Pistol Pete savage postal employees for their pensions, or police officers or government school teachers or gov't social workers. Nope... he'll only blubber about military personnel.

johnk wasn't talking to you.

"he'll only blubber about military personnel."

hmm, maybe you're right. Because you don't have to have anything but an 80 IQ and a heartbeat and the government will take care of you for the rest of your life as long as you're willing to kill!!

So, you only need "an IQ of 80" to get into the military?

Wrong again, Petey. The military today has pretty strict recruitment standards, far better than in the VietNam era. The fact that you don't know this shows, once again, that you're really nothing more than an uninformed, mouthy punk.

But even if what you claimed were true (and it isn't) at least you'll never have to worry about being drafted. You wouldn't meet that minimum standard.

You're just a big mouth name caller. Typical. You never even responsed to my retort in the other thread.

Calling me a dunce doesn't change the facts:

"Faced with repeated failures to meet its recruitment targets, the Army has had to lower its standards dramatically. First it relaxed restrictions against high-school drop-outs. Then it started letting in more applicants who score in the lowest third on the armed forces aptitude test—a group, known as Category IV recruits, who have been kept to exceedingly small numbers, as a matter of firm policy, for the past 20 years. "

http://www.slate.com/id/2133908/

Maybe this is why you're so sensitive to this subject:

"Category IV recruit reads at only the 3rd or 4th grade level, which means that even the most basic training manuals for the easiest jobs are beyond their reading comprehension ability."

Source: National Academic Press

Petey... when you want to argue a position, go to the experts (the military in this case), not Slate Magazine. Here are the facts...


Army Has No Plans to Drop Recruiting Standards
By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service


WASHINGTON, Nov. 9, 2005 – The Army is looking for the best in its prospective recruits and won't let standards slip as it fills its ranks, the top general for Army recruiting and retention said today during an interview on C-SPAN's "Washington Journal."
Lt. Gen. Robert L. Van Antwerp, who heads the Army Accessions Command, dismissed allegations that a recent spike in recruits who score lowest in military entrance tests and an increase in those without high school diplomas represents a watering down of the force.

Twelve percent of the Army's October recruits, many of them from the Delayed Entry Program pool, were so-called "Category 4" recruits, whose entrance test scores are the lowest the Army will accept.

Van Antwerp said these accessions tend to be higher than average early in the fiscal year, but that they will even out over the rest of the year. Category 4 recruits will represent less than 4 percent of the Army's recruits by the year's end, he said.

"Based on what we brought in in October, it's high," Van Antwerp said. "But based on the annual mission (through Sept. 30, 2006), we will be well under 4 percent."

Similarly, Van Antwerp said, the Army won't allow more than 10 percent of its recruits to have general equivalency diplomas rather than high school diplomas.

Only about one-quarter of the 17- to 24-year-olds who make up the Army's prime recruiting market are eligible to enlist; a variety of factors, including education, health, weight, morality and legal issues, disqualify many prospects. Despite this recruiting environment, Van Antwerp said he's encouraged by the recent upswing in recruitment.

"Army recruiting is going very well right now," Van Antwerp said. August represented the Army's best recruiting months since July 2001, and the Army exceeded its recruiting missions for both September and October, he said.

"So we are off to a great start," Van Antwerp said.

These recruiting successes are critical as the Army works toward building a force capable of putting 355,000 operational soldiers in the field, he said. The ultimate goal, Van Antwerp said, is to be able to put "the right soldier in the right unit at the right time, trained to standards."

... Complete story here... http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2005/20051109_3283.html

Further, my point still stands... recruitment requirements today are far higher than they were during Viet Nam.


...Now... lets get down to brass tacks, shall we, Petey? Your problem is that you despise the military, period. This isn't about recruiting or retirement benefits... this is about your deeply personal, seething hatred of the military. Who knows why you feel this way... maybe you were rejected at a recruiting office. Do you deny that you despise the military?

Hmm, using the military as a source for an issue involving the military... Wow, you are bright. No wonder you can't seem to figure things out. Did you learn that kind of critical analysis in the military? My guess is probably so.

An Army of Anyone
You need a high school diploma to enlist -- or a recruiter willing to bend the rules.
By J. David McSwane

For Private Kevin Shane Heitman, the completion of Army National Guard basic training last month was a day of sweet reward. After what he describes as "six months of hell," Heitman was done with basic training and advanced infantry training, ready to be a soldier. Boot camp had been the most arduous test he'd ever encountered; graduating from high school was so much easier.

He'd just faked his diploma -- at his Army recruiter's suggestion.

Heitman dropped out of school in the eighth grade and doesn't have a general-equivalency diploma. For him to be a soldier in the Arkansas Army National Guard contradicts the rules and regulations that the Armed Forces set for themselves and reaffirmed this past spring.

But they didn't take into account Sergeant Lloyd Spears of the Little Rock Army recruiting office. Heitman's family says that Spears not only told Heitman a fake diploma would work, he made it for him.

Full story . . . http://www.westword.com/Issues/2005-09-29/news/feature2.html

Wow, Petey... One bad recruiter and that is grounds for damning the entire recruiting system. If that's your 'logic' then by your 'logic' if one Leftist is a raging Communist then all Leftists, including you, are raging Communists.

More to the point, you are apparently afraid to address my core accusation: That you simply despise the military. The recruiting points you mention are merely tools for you to exercise your hate. You don't care a bit about debate, you just want to continue spewing one anti-military article after another. If I question you on one then you'll ignore it and simply post a new article, effectively changing the subject. This is the mark of an unfocused mind, incapable of genuine debate. Its a shame, but its what I've come to expect from the functionally illiterate Left.

Go on Pete, admit that you think the military is fucking heaven on earth and a blessing on humanity.
Then Sgt. Rock can take a rest.
And address the issues on this thread with are about racism. Not officer grade material like scorpio.

Leave it to a fine right-wing mind like Scorpio to insist that we turn this debate into personal accusations and name calling. And he says that "leftists" won't address the issues.

What difference does it make what I think of the military? Do you still yearn for your father's approval too, Scorpio?

Facts are facts: relaxed standards, more Category IV recruits that can't read at a 4th grade level, a full scale poverty draft and people like Scorpio coming out of the system full of shame and desperate to make sense of what they did through ad hominem attacks.

Border Raven, we know that you also post as "Minutewoman" so you can stop the charade.

bodern raven wants to be woman. and he wants to make up an imaginary friend too so he does not feel a loner in the site.

>>>>>>>>>>>I spent 20-years of my life in the military, so smart asses like you could speak freely, and stand under the USA flag.

you are a lapdog of the power elite. you follow what they tell you. i dont want to pull your chain but they lied to you. where does it say in the constitution?

But, thanks for paying for my military retirement. It only took me, and every other military retiree, at least 20-years to earn it. I really appreciate your carring for us.

BR

But don't thank us though - we only paid your way

Thank your "commander in chief" - he's really loves 'ya !

Border Raven you make me laugh. why should i care about you.you have attack immigrants who wants to work.

I am in favor of requiring all illegal immigrants to return to their native country and get in line to come to this country. No matter how long it takes. I am in favor of changing to laws to disallow illegal immigrants born in this country from becoming legal citizens. The mass marches for an illegal and immoral cause is only polarizing this country and bringing shame to your cause.