Protesters gathered on December 23rd, 2005 at a corner of the Bristol/Sunflower intersection at 3pm to conduct a march to the Costa Mesa Police Department. Members of various groups and other individuals were there to protest the City Council's decision to train city police to enforce immigration law. There are concerns about possible racial profiling, effects on relations among people, and other issues. There was dissent expressed towards city mayor Allan Mansoor and the vote to close a day-labor center in Costa Mesa.

Among the groups involved in the protest/march were A.N.S.W.E.R., Colectivo Tonantzin, S.E.I.U.(Service Employees International Union), music band Error Collective, some Anarchists, and other individuals. Some children and family members were also in the march and protest, giving representation to people in general who may be affected by this issue. Some reporters and photographers also walked with the march to the police station. When the march started at around 4pm, there were approximately 50 people in the march. Upon arrival at the Costa Mesa police department, estimations went up to about 100.

An couple of people from NBC were present for the gathering before the march. A reporter for the Register was also on hand. Other reporters and video cameras were in action at the police department after the march. During the march itself, a man from channel 62, a Spanish network, observed but didn’t have a news crew with him.

An Anarchist, who’s identity will remain private, was there to show support and confirmed that being an Anarchist isn’t necessarily being anti-American. He stated that he likes his country and wants it to be better.

A couple of children used markers to make some signs. One of them read “Aztlan.” The father explained some historical significance of the Aztlan idea from his point of view and acknowledged it to be mythical. He didn’t speak about any type of “reconquista” takeover or actually turning any part of the U.S. officially in to Aztlan. He did recommend visiting New Mexico, which he says the center of what he spoke of.

As the daylight slowly faded, the march continued on until finally reaching its destination, the Costa Mesa Police Department. Some members of the police department observed. As the participants walked through the parking lot and onto the grass area where they gathered, an unidentified person sitting in the bed of a truck chanted “USA!” holding a small American flag. A member of SOS(Save Our State) who called for a counter-protest was also there taking pictures of the protest. When the protest concluded, a truck drove by(not the same truck in the parking lot with the counter protester) with a passenger who displayed a sign that read, “Go back to Mexico.”

The participants all gathered to hear some speakers and chant slogans such as “the people, united, will never be defeated!” Some participants had guitar-like musical instruments. When the protest concluded, some more negativity towards the protest briefly made an apperance. A truck drove by(not the same truck in the parking lot with the counter protester) with a passenger who displayed a sign that read, “Go back to Mexico.” It is not known at this time if someone got a photograph of that occurrence.

Some participants give A.N.S.W.E.R. a presence at the march and protest.

error

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Protest signs supporting the people.

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Going along Bristol, the march passes Anton and proceeds all the way to the Costa Mesa Police Department.

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An individual sat on a truck bed, waved the American flag, and repeatedly said "USA!"

At the police department.

Everyone gathers around to hear speakers and chant.

A member of SOS takes photographs. He called for a counter-protest.

When I arrived at Bristol and Sunflower, I immediately engaged in plenty of dialogue with individuals at the gathering. I spoke with an NBC person and offered what I’m going public with(Gilchrist) and my contact information. I was there to see if there’s any members of the press/media to speak with. Also for my own curiosity and to take some photos.

I spoke with an Anarchist and, as I assumed, he said that being an Anarchist isn’t being Anti-American. This guy likes this country and wants to make it better through his efforts. Hear that Jim Gilchrist?

During the march, I spoke with a guy named Joe from the A.N.S.W.E.R. organization about various things. He informed me of the big anti-war protest in Hollywood this coming March in 2006. He straightened some things out about the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition, how it got started when the 9/11 attacks hit, how they’re made up of various groups that check on each other. I’m against the war in Iraq as always, but I’m still not interested in being involved with the A.N.S.W.E.R. groups. It should be known that there are MANY groups involved in the big protest marches in Hollywood, such as Code Pink, the Anarchists, among many others. Not just A.N.S.W.E.R.

When speaking with a guy about Aztlan, again, he wasn’t there advocating a takeover of America and he wasn’t wearing a brown beret hat. He even refered to the Aztlan idea as mythical. So maybe he’s one of the people that may refer to this area of the U.S. as “Aztlan” in a personal, unofficial, or cultural way, perhaps on some would be spiritual level. Curious, no doubt.

I spoke with another individual who noted that I’m getting a different perspective. Yeah, I’ll say! I’m very glad I came to bear witness and interact with some people. I recommend it to anyone.

After the march at the police department, I decided to put my bandana over my nose and mouth, concerned about any police officers taking photographs or footage. Also, I was aware that some members of SOS(Save Our State) may actually be on hand. It’s not that I cared if they saw or knew I was there. It’s just that if they make a big ruckus out of it, I have the hassle of explaining that I was there to observe, interact, and take some pictures and footage. There are people who can verify this. They know who they are, if they wish, they can reply and do so here. But none of that “OC” nonsense from imposters please.

Indeed, BorderRaven was there and took pictures. I took pictures of him, but I guess that wasn’t okay because he approached me and yelled at me, calling me an ***hole. He figured out who I was, tried to tug at my bandana, and one or two participants in the protest came to my defense and told him to not do that. Again, I wasn’t an actual protester, but I never thought I’d see the day when someone who would surely oppose SOS would defend me from SOS! Now I’ve seen everything! Anyways, sincere thanks to those who defended me from the loud SOS member(yes, the thanks is real).

BorderRaven repeatedly said my name out load. Yeah, like that matters to me. I repeatedly asked him about the firearm he brandished in Lake Forest. Finally he acknowledged it and tried to justify it saying he was after felon assailants or criminals or whatever. Yeah, like the other party knew that? What they saw was a guy drive after them and show them a gun. Looks like vigilantism to me. Not concluding it is, but it sure sounds like it from what BorderRaven admitted to. He also admitted to maybe needing a lawyer and possibly facing a brandishing charge. Gee, I wonder why. I think anyone reading who is involved in counter efforts against SOS/Minuteman types should be aware of this guy. I’ve known him to be reactive, going too far in his conduct and conducting foolish and unnecessary actions.

At the counter-protest situation in the parking lot, one lady said it was obscene for me to wear a ski cap, shades, and a bandana. She said I looked like a terrorist. Oh no, I look like a terrorist! I must be a domestic insurgent! Jammer CC the domestic terror insurgent! An older guy who said he was a veteran from the Korean war asked me to take my mask off. We did shake hands, oddly enough. The same lady said something like I should respect him. Hey, I know he’s a veteran and all, but I don’t know him personally. Excuse me for not dropping to my knees in worship in all his veteran-ness. I could unconditionally be nice to him and yield to everything he says just because he’s a veteran, but I didn’t. I showed him enough courtesy. I could take offense to his time in Korea since I’m Korean(born here though). But I didn’t do that either. When it comes to basic interaction with me, being a veteran does not give you special privileges, priority, or a high horse to sit upon and talk down on me.

I guess some people will simply be bewildered and outraged that I’m interested in interacting with people. Sacrilege!

Again, very interesting and informative experience. Can’t wait for the next!

Footage of the march

Sorry if this file is kinda big, but it's good.

"Statement on people here against US immigration laws."

It was supposed to be this photo.

One more

How come a person is illegal only in the U.S.?

MEXICO CITY Dec 21, 2005 — Mexico's federal Human Rights Commission acknowledged on Wednesday that the country uses some of the same methods in dealing with illegal migrants that it has criticized the United States for employing.

The admission comes as Mexican Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez called on Latin American countries to unite against a U.S. House of Representatives bill to toughen border enforcement.

The bill, which passed on Friday with a 239-182 vote, would make illegal entry a felony, and enlist military and local police to help stop illegal entrants.

"As a matter of fact, (Mexico's) population law does include prison terms for illegally entering the country … and this is something that has been the subject of constant complaints," said Mauricio Farah, a national inspector for the rights commission.

Jose Luis Soberanes, president of the rights commission, said that Mexico also uses many government agencies, such as the police and the military, to detain undocumented migrants, even though Mexican law technically doesn't allow that.

"One of the saddest national failings on immigration issues," Soberanes told a news conference, "is the contradiction in demanding that the North (the United States) respect migrants' rights, which we are not capable of guaranteeing in the South," along Mexico's border with Guatemala.

But Soberanes slammed another provision of the U.S. immigration bill that would build 700 miles of additional fences or walls along the U.S.-Mexico border, calling it "absurd."

The commission also acknowledged that Mexico mistreats many migrants mostly Central Americans who cross Mexico in a bid to reach the United States and called for improvement on that front.

The human rights commission also presented a report on Wednesday that found overcrowding and bad conditions at about three-quarters of Mexico's 51 immigration detention centers and 68 other holding facilities.

Confused posted a good point. Worth looking into I'd say.

Back to yesterday's event, I want to note that the Mexica Movement were not there. Neither were any Aztlan brown berets. I didn't even see any Mexico flags. The march was about the Costa Mesa police department and the major of the city. I didn't see anything that indicates hostility towards the USA. It was a very friendly atmosphere, other than the counter protesters.

Lemme correct the hyperlink for ya.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1431252

Well I find it confusing that south of our border countries can have illegal immigrants (including Mexico) yet the protestors always make statements here that no human is illegal. Why is that? I have been on the Amnesty International website and have read were Salvadorian migrants get beat, imprisoned, robbed, and deported by the Federales and Mexican Military. Human rights abuses run rampent in South America yet those same people that come here from those countries, and some of your members as well, ignore this. Is the Mexican Government racist toward the Salvadorians? You and I both know this is not about illegal immigrants per se. Its about illegal immigrants in the U.S. only. I understand they come here for a better life however, there needs to be some controls. In south of border countries there laws and customs differ from ours. What may be exceptible to them may not be exceptible to the citizens of this country. I have to abide by other countries laws when I visit, why shouldn't they be subjected to our laws. This hypocritical illegal immigrant issue is only about the U.S. Why is that?

Maybe you can enlighten me without going into the aztland and we stole the land BS. From the time of homoerrectus, tribes and nations have been conquering land.

if you are concern about illegals coming to the USA look at the root problem and not scapegoating people. The root problem is about FREE TRADE and the usa is playing a huge part of it. and it's gone global.

Also what you're describing Confused, is perhaps something people are trying to escape by coming here. Mistreatment not just of migrants and people there against US immigration laws, but citizens as well. And I'm saying perhaps here, because of course I don't have the insight that many others have(one of the reasons why I've taken a step back from all this).

Sorry, I mean people there against their immigration laws.

I'd like to give thanks for posting this report and Leslie's report on the main page of LA Indymedia. I really like the format and yeah there is variety here to be seen when rid of the Minuteman-mentality, heheheh. Happy holidays everyone. Not to be selfish but I'm taking a nice break from, oh, everything tonight. Saw King Kong, awsome movie.

Maybe you can explain what free trade has to do with a city that wants to enforce the immigration laws? I do agree with you that free trade should be ended but I don't see how free trade has anything to do with people illegaly entering this country. Again it goes back to what I stated. The issue is hypocritical. The Mexican government deported 100,000 illegal aliens in 2004. Are you saying free trade does does not allow a country to enforce its immigration laws? Did Mexico violate the free trade agreement by deporting those migrants that only wanted a better life in Mexico? Again, this is only about U.S. immigration laws, all other countries get a free pass, right?

Are you suggesting that we should allow all poverty stricken nations that engage in human rights violations to send there people to this country. or just latin america? If you consider the poor in Africa, Asia, and Europe we would end up having most of the worlds populatin in this country. Is it the responsibility of U.S. police the worlds poverty striken country? Is it the responsibility of the U.S. to police the human rights violaters? If the answer to those two question is yes, please suggest how we do this? (war) Where do we house everyone? What about infustructure such as roads, sewage,energy, etc? Do we build in our national forests? Do we errect more hydro electric dams? Do we ruin the enviroment to accomodate mass migration? Again this issue is hypocritical. from my view. Latin America has vast resouces and a large labor pool. Is there own goverments investing in this or are they lining there pockets at there citizens expense? Protesting a city that wants to enforce U.S. immigration law is not going to solve the root problems as el chivo states, so Whats the answer? Open borders?

Whoa hey, I'm not advocating or taking a stance with what I said. Certainly I don't think that's a valid solution on a large scale. It was just a thought, something to consider. Someone may be a criminal on paper for coming here against US immigration laws, but that someone may actually feel more like a survivor. Depends on who it is. Just taking that into consideration, that's all.

I was just trying to point out that it is easy to protest something and make heros out of a protestor but unless the protestor has a solution they are just advocating a personal agenda which I believe has been done in your reports. El Chivo, at least believes free trade is the main factor. I may not agree with the reasoning however, he is willing to discuss the root. Theres much to be considered when addressing this issue and its not at all black and white or racist in nature as some have indicated on this board. Should the U.S. build a fence? The U.S. shouldn't have to build one however, why is it there's a need for a fence? Is it that latin american governments have failed? If so, then why is this? All countries can have an economy like the U.S. The blue print resides in U.S. history. Some good and some bad however, the blue print is there. It does take a willingness to make sacrifices. Maybe the latin american countries are not willing to make those sacrifices yet. Its funny how the U.S., with this issue, is the bad guy and is no fault of the latin american governments. I have to question the true motives of your protestors. Are they attempting to solve the root of the problem? Protesting a city police department that may start enforceing immigration laws does not address the root. I believe you need to look south to address the root.

If the laws of the USA, were respected, by all of those persons wanting to come here, then a 5 foot high fence with three strands of wire, and signs posted every quarter-mile, would be sufficient.

If, the Immigration laws of the USA were respected, the Minutmen Project, would never have happened.

If, the Immigration laws of the USA were respected,
I'd happily go back to my boring existence, but until the situation, is at the "new normal", and a normal I like, then I'll be out there doing the job the illegals and the governments, don't want me to do.

I don't have a personal agenda when it comes to the border issue or the protest in Costa Mesa. And the protest was more about the Costa Mesa police department and the mayor. I didn't see any signs about the Minutemen or Bush or SOS. I try to use the photographs and footage to reflect what it was like to be there, right up to the counter protest in the police parking lot. But not taking their side. But I did enjoy speaking with quite a few individuals about various things, including the protest itself.

about Mexico's immigration policy? I can't do anything about htat.

Besides, migrating to Mexico prolly won't make the difference between surviving and not. Migrating to Amerikkka just might.

Name calling does not further the debate. It just inflames people to do the same. Organizations such as the Minutemen and SOS draws media attention to the issue which informs the public of there concerns. No different than the protests at WTO meetings. Both sides of the issue engauge in tactics to make the other side look bad. In general I don't believe SOS or the MM are a racists group. Nor do I believe they have alterier motives in what they are attempting to do which is securing the border. Many protestors from other organization appear to have a special agenda which I believe is selfish on there part if they really want true change. I believe most immigrants, illegal or otherwise, would prefer living in there own countries. However, as long as it benefits themselves to live abroad they will continue to do so. Over 20 billion dollars a year is privately transfered from the U.S. to latin america and it has done nothing to better there future or there childrens future. It just satisfies there immediate needs. Again I state this is not a illegal immgration problem per se'. It is a U.S. illegal immigration issue only. It appears to be simpler to come here than it is to address the problems at home. The people from other countries rasing there countries flag at protests here in the U.S. should actually be raising those flags at there own governments and demanding change. This would take courage on there part. The kind of courage that will be written about in history books.

this is good, for simple solutions for simple minds.

>It is a U.S. illegal immigration issue only. It appears to be simpler to come here than it is to address the problems at home.<

I thinks this is an exploitation issue and if the state of Mexico had any real choice, it would kick out our paid off politicians there and be able to have a life making a refugee of yourself is the only option for survival. And often not even that.
The major reason Mexico is so messed up, is the meddling of its southern neighbor.

All their hopes get bought off, set up or 'neutralized'.
Mexico is corrupt because the capitalism that runs it is corrupt.
Is that too hard to cover?

It took courage explore the Old World.
It took courage to to do so, by sea, in wooden sail boats, and uncharted territory.
It took courage to stand up to Brtian and build this country, we live in.
It took courage to ride a wagon, across dangerous lands to get here.
It takes, courage to walk here, but it is foolhardy to do so, in violation of the laws.

It takes the daily, courage of men and women, around the world, serving 24/7 to keep it.

Courage is the ability to confront fear in the face of pain, danger, uncertainty or intimidation. As a virtue, courage is covered extensively in Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, its vice of deficiency being cowardice, and its vice of excess being recklessness.

The precise view of what constitutes courage not only varies among cultures, but among individuals. For instance, some define courage as lacking fear in a situation that would normally generate it. Others, in contrast, hold that courage requires one to have fear and then overcome it.

There are also more subtle distinctions in the definition of courage. For example, some distinguish between courage and foolhardiness in that a courageous person overcomes a justifiable fear for an even more noble purpose. If the fear is not justifiable or the purpose not noble, then the courage is either false, or foolhardy.

It took courage explore the Old World. [ don't forget the steel, gunpowder, horses,love of gold, love of god.]
It took courage to to do so, by sea, in wooden sail boats, and uncharted territory. [ I guess that the above mentioned sources for capital gain had nothing to do with it.]
It took courage to stand up to Brtian and build this country, we live in.
[ we did most of our standing up behind a rock sniping at their horses and backs]
It took courage to ride a wagon, across dangerous lands to get here. [ see above references to to gold and god]
It takes, courage to walk here, but it is foolhardy to do so, in violation of the laws. [laws? How selectively do you want them enforced anyway? ]

"Statement on people here against US immigration laws."

I posted a picture of a "Nobody is illegal" sign with that sentence. I wasn't making a statement myself. I used that caption title for the picture because obviously the sign in the photo would be a statement.

El Chivo Saturday, Dec. 24, 2005 at 11:11 AM
"if you are concern about illegals coming to the USA look at the root problem and not scapegoating people. The root problem is about FREE TRADE and the usa is playing a huge part of it. and it's gone global."

You are correct, now what do you suggest doing about it? Don't say Democratic Party because they are almost as bad as the Republicans on globalization. Both Bush and Kerry are Skull and Bones members, it didn't matter which one won last year, the Corporate Globalists would have won either way.

I would also say the problem is not exactly free trade but trade rigged to further enrich the elites at the expense of the poor.

Again, how do you propose to stop it?

Before the march

After the march.

Jammer is under investigation, currently, for his involvement in events that are being scrutinized by more than one entity - affiliated with agencies of global peril and importance.

Care to elaborate?

"I would also say the problem is not exactly free trade but trade rigged to further enrich the elites at the expense of the poor.

Again, how do you propose to stop it?"

Simple: GLOBAL COMMUNIST REVOLUTION!!

I take it that's a reply to Bowman's post.

I should also state that the protesters in Costa Mesa did not act like "goons." But BorderRaven from SOS was confrontational, yelled at me, called me an asshole, and technically assaulted me(tugged at my bandana). I did pursue asking him about the gun he displayed in Lake Forest while driving in his vehicle. Two or three other counter-protesters argued with me, I have the footage.

I was curious as to the identity of the masked person who was pointing a video camera at me.

First I asked him to remove the mask.

He refused.

It escalated from there.

But, I learned, from the experience.

:/

"should also state that the protesters in Costa Mesa did not act like "goons." But BorderRaven from SOS was confrontational, yelled at me, called me an asshole"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There, there now......a little comfort for our Jammers
Let Ayatollah sing you a lullabye

Crock-a-bye baby
on the tree top
When you break wind
The cradle will rock

Feeling better now?

"Suffice it to say, there are the international forces beyond the ken of most. I think you know that."

I'm not sure what you mean by international forces or "beyond the ken of most." I'm not a member of any international forces or anything like that. I was a member of a couple of groups that some consider extreme, but I quit SOS and the Gilchrist campaign. Actually I was kicked out of the campaign for wanting answers, but I would have quit anyways.

As for BorderRaven, I had a digital camera ready at that moment, not a video camera. And sure I refused to take my bandana off, so? Is that a crime? I understand there will be another Lake Forest protest rally on January 7th, 8am to 11am. Are you gonna drive around and chase people with your gun AGAIN BorderRaven?

For those who didn't quite get that, the couple of groups that some consider extreme that I was refering to was SOS and the Gilchrist campaign. I've never been a member of anything "international" unless you count the Class Action Club at Saddleback College, which isn't around anymore, a group of students who basically went to Bush protests and talked about stuff.

Will you be there?

Please say, yes.

:)

I haven't decided yet. I was gonna be at the Lake Forest city council meeting to ask them to move the day labor situation somewhere else. I wasn't gonna say anything about Gilchrist or SOS, other than state that I'm no longer affiliated with them. But even that, I'll probably wait til the next meeting after that. Or just meet with them in an appointment meeting, where I can tell them everything I need to. Don't expect me to hold back.

And why would you want me to be at Lake Forest? Hmm...

Don't hold anything back, just make sure you get it right and can back it up, for your sake. Seriously, I doubt,if they'll give a rat's ass, but go for it.

Tell me are you fearful of guns? Are you hoplophobic?

Have you ever had a firearm?

Have you read the California penal Code Section 120000 series?

You had better do your homework.

The reason why immigration law is the way it is comes from a fundamental contradiction between reality and the way people think about this country.

The reality is that much, if not most of the economic and population growth of this country is due to immigration. Almost every person here is a descendent of immigrants. (Even within the country, a lot of economic dynamism is still coming from people abandoning rural areas to work in cities.)

The way many people think about immigrants, though, is that they are taking from and degrading the country. Also, people have a sense of entitlement because they have been here for a few generations, and they don't like to compete for jobs with someone who they perceive as different.

It's difficult to pass immigration laws that are realistic because people tend to vote based on the latter perception.

The "free" trade argument is that the US and Europe have, since the 1950s, subsidized farmers to not grow crops, or, have bought up surpluses to keep prices high enough for them to stay in business.

Basically, there was a farm crisis that occurred after new hybrids, new fertilizers, and new techniques created huge increases in farming productivity. Agribusiness grew, and the family farm was going out of business. (And, people started to vacate farming towns to move to cities.) To preserve the family farm (and, to avoid an even worse crisis of tens of thousands of middle-aged people out of work), the government created farm subsidies. (Also, farmers have political power.)

To save tax money, and to do something with all these agricultural surpluses, the US negotiates to open up countries to US agriculture. For example, for some 30 years, the US has tried to sell rice to Japan. We grow a lot of decent rice here, in California, and in Texas. Japan keeps trade barriers up, to preserve the local culture of rice farming. They also do this to avoid the crisis of tens of thousands of middle aged farmers becoming unemployed almost overnight. (To adjust, farmers there are doing what family farmers here have done: go gourmet, go organic, grow more expensive crops.)

Well... that's Japan. They aren't subject to the structural adjustment orders of the IMF/World Bank, which holds a lot of debt for poorer countries. The IMF/WB forces these countries to open up their markets to US goods.

BTw - that's why I put "free" in quotes. There's nothing "free" about a structural adjustment plan by the IMF. That's simply coercing a country that is in debt.

The US agribusiness interests find themselves in the catbird seat. Not only can they overproduce grains, they get subsidized for it, so they can actually sell the goods below cost! The local farmers are still using old technology and techniques to grow their grains, so, they just don't have the level of productivity to compete.

Naturally, what US agribusiness wants is to open up the market, and then dump product at low, low prices to totally destroy the competition. Then, over time, as subsidies are phased out by the government, agribusiness can raise their prices because there's no competition. The locals will not be able to compete, because technology-intensive farming has high startup costs. Besides, even if the tech weren't that expensive, you're not talking about rich bankers. These farmers are working to put food on the table, not to get wealthy. They can't wait out the shakeout, and then invest in farms a few years from today -- they need cash now, to eat. The IMF says "grow ABC for export", so they do. Then, there turns out to be a glut of "ABC" on the world market, and prices plummet... but there's nobody who's going to subsidize this farmer.

So the farmers end up moving to the cities... just like American farmers (or their kids) did in the 1950s.

The only problem is, this isn't post-WW2 America, which, at the time, was one of the most powerful countries in the world. These former farmers are in a country with IMF debt, and a history of being a colony.

So, the next natural thing happens -- high unemployment in the cities. Thousands of unemployed middle aged farmers are looking for work.

But for some reason, this high unemployment doesn't cause a zillion businesses to open up. Maybe it's because there aren't any local customers, and there aren't enough exports. (I don't know what's happening.)

Eventually, people start seeking greener pastures rather than face even more misery.

The unfortunate side effect is not that farmers are immigrating. It's the urbanized people who go first, taking their urban skills (and sometimes, college degrees) with them to more modernized countries. Maybe their parent or grandparent lived on the farm or in a handmade house, but, the emigrants live in cities, in apartments.

Think about what this means for us, and for them. For us, it's good, because we gain labor that is largely pre-trained and pre-educated. For them, it's a "brain drain" that will slow down modernization and industrialization.

Why do you harass this Border Raven about his gun?

There is that report which was NOT for public consumption and I think YOU know exactly what you had inside of that holster...

A holster? Ha! Try proving that one. I've never owned a holster in my life. The only type of guns I've ever handled were BB guns and pellet guns. But I never brought one to any protests or events and I haven't owned one in years. I only handled a pellet gun recently in an independent film shoot. I have never owned, used, or handled an actual bullet firearm.

Good, because you are not man enough!

Go play with your BB guns.

CALIFORNIA
PENAL CODE
SECTION 12550-12556

12550. As used in this article, the following definitions apply:
(a) "BB device" is defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12001.
(b) "Firearm" is defined in subdivision (b) of Section 12001.
(c) "Imitation firearm" means any BB device, toy gun, replica of a
firearm, or other device that is so substantially similar in
coloration and overall appearance to an existing firearm as to lead a
reasonable person to perceive that the device is a firearm.

12551. Every person who sells to a minor any BB device is guilty of
a misdemeanor.

12552. (a) Every person who furnishes any BB device to any minor,
without the express or implied permission of the parent or legal
guardian of the minor, is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) As used in this section, "furnishes" means any of the
following:
(1) A loan.
(2) A transfer that does not involve a sale.

>>Good, because you are not man enough!

>>Go play with your BB guns.

That was funny, mister macho he-man tough guy.

Guns don't make the man.

"You KNOW what you have done with assorted,..firearms."

Do you know just how SCARY that sounds? I shot a bird with a Be Be gun once. Nice shot at that distance. I felt bad about it.

So I KNOW what I've done with firearms? Like what? As for Border Raven, hopefully the Lake Forest police or a court will decide that.

Jammer, I was in Lake Forest yesterday, talking with the cops, introduced myself, and not once was I given the slightest hint, they know what you are harping on. At no time was I followed, harrased, stopped, or searched. OTOH - I was treated with respect.

I am a veteran of 20-years in the US military. I volunteered, during the Vietnam War, after growing up in the Cold War, and the Vietnam war. I am retired. I have crawled on my hands and knees, the length of an aircraft carrier, and endured 4-hours of humiliation, during a Crossing the Equator rite-of-passage, at the age of 37, in order to earn the honor to be called a "Shellback". Compared to me, you are a wimp (one who lacks courage), and a sad wimp at that. You are a 'Wog, or Pollywog, some would say you are a sandcrab. You have no manhood, at least not in my eyes, nor in the eyes of many people I know. What are you trying to prove by this continued posting of tripe? The more you post, the more you belittle yourself.

And during this service on board a nice floating city, how much combat did you see? Was it the USS Coral Sea?

Like I said, we'll let the court decide if it comes to that. I am concerned because of your choice of actions with your GUN, plus your confrontational behavior at Costa Mesa.

20 years in the navy does not equate to 20-years at sea.

I enlisted in the USN September 1, 1972, during the Vietnam War. I went through two months of boot camp, where I was tested and classed for training in aviation maintenance. After boot camp, I was sent to Florida, for 6-months of school, in aircraft electrical instrument systems. In early 1973, the war in Vietnam ended.

I stayed in for the job, benefits, travel, and the money.

In early August, 1990, I was in the USS Independence, preparing for two days ashore on Diego Garcia, when we got word of the invasion of Kuwait. This turned into my longest period at sea - 112 days port to port. During this period, I crossed into the Southern Hemisphere, for the first time, and had to go through the Shellback initiation, as it was my last opportunity, after 17.5 years in the USN and 37 years old.

I never served in Vietnam. I never served in combat. I never got sent. It was not my job to drop the bombs on target, my job was to make sure the system was accurate. My battle was with learning the military rules and regulations, both written and unwritten, and about studying humanity and learning my inner-self.

Even though "wn ouster team's" post is really late, because I already explained July 30th Laguna Beach, and obviously a joke, the first two lines could have been convincing to anyone new. However, your third line killed it. I came up with the name "Jammer CC" a little over a month ago for my Buy Nothing Day antics. I needed a name to narrate the video footage I got of my activities. And it stuck.

Illegal alien issue has nothing to do with free trade.
Those leftywing folk trying to blame illegal alien
problem on free trade is playing dirty game.
Illegal Alien problem is coming from all Mexican
internal problem which they can't take care of average
mexican people. It has nothing to do with sending
a job to Mexico. Actually thank to free trade, more
job is sending to Mexioc but the illegal Mexicans are
keep moving into US because so many milion and milions of Mexicans are left out of the system while
few elite super-rich white Mexicans are control
every resource in Mexico.

I think that trade patterns always affect immigration to some degree. I was only presenting the argument about "free" trade affecting immigration, and only the current issue with subsidized agriculture.

The agricultural shifts, however, are real, and they are happening all the time, influencing people to move from one place to another.

There are other factors, of course. The preexisting population of Mexican Americans makes immigrating here easier. The long, shared border also influences it, as does the fact that much of America was Spanish territory until 1848.

I'm not sure if the welfare state in Mexico (or the one in the US) is a big factor, but I haven't read much about Mexican welfare. Here is an interesting article, though, about Mexican tortilla subsidies. Neoliberal policy is causing the subsidy to be reduced... with attendant increases in poverty, which may or may not affect immigration to the US.

http://www.american.edu/TED/tortilla.htm

Here's one about a bread subsidy in Egypt:

http://www.iht.com/articles/1992/03/03/edcr.php

Clearly, the WB/IMF and general neoliberal ideology influences the conditions of the poor in other countries.

If it's documented, then post or publish everything you have. I have nothing to hide.

The above reply by me was in reply to someone who's post is deleted or hidden, not to JohnK or anyone else. Just to clarify.