The other subsidies besides US taxpayers' cash moolah are in the form of water diverted from the Rio Colorado and other rios throughout the west. At the expense of migratory anadromous fish, delta and other riparian ecosystems (including desert springs and aquifers), the rio agua ends up in industrial agriculture fields like the hot and dry Imperial Valley to grow temperate (water dependant) crops like iceberg lettuce. The monocultura fields also require heavy applications of pesticdes and fertilizers, all petrochemical based. That is another reason the US military is still occupying oil rich Iraq, we are hooked on petroleum to feed our industrial agriculture..

Here's a list of the top 15 farms in the Westlands Water District;

http://www.ewg.org/reports/westlands/part2.php

Then there's the issue of labor. Undocumented immigrants usually end up in the largest industrial agriculture fields breathing toxins of pesticides and suffering heat stroke. For this they don't even get paid above minimum wage (though CEOs get millions of taxpayer dollars?), if they become ill from the bioaccumulation of pesticide toxins they are secretly deported back to Mexico..

The UFW needs to be less about compromise with industrial agriculture and more about zero tolerance of pesticide exposure. Since the CA gubenator Arnold the Actor has chosen to support measure 75 to further weaken the unions, this may not happen. Ceaser Chavez would be rolling in his grave if he knew how the UFW has sold out to industrial agriculture in the name of compromise. Consider this a challenge to the UFW to prove me wrong..

All the Cucapah of the Rio Colorado delta ask for is 1 percent more fresh river water to recover from the decades of drought and increased salinity from lack of fresh water. Even this is too much for the Imperial Valley iceberg lettuce growers who insist on claiming the lion's share of the water so that Taco Bell can put some lettuce leaves on their tacos. Just ask the owner of a seafood restaurant in El Golfo de Santa Clara about the steady decline in sealife over the decades from lack of fresh water. This criminal behavior on the part of these corporations will only continue so long as people allow it..

Until now, the Minutemen are considered by many (including myself) to be racist for scapegoating immigrants and ducking the source problem of "illegal" immigration, economic inequality. If the Minutemen want to show the world what they are really about (another challenge to prove me wrong), organizing a protest of industrial agriculture and their abusive treatment of undocumented immigrant labor would be a great idea to throw off the label of being racist. Maybe some counter-protesters could also show up and the corporate media would be forced to cover this controversial issue that effects everyone..

No agua, no vida: Slow Death of the Colorado Delta
http://www.blueearth.org/projects/colorado_river/

"Over the course of millions of years, water and silt from the Colorado River Basin flowing downstream to the Gulf of California created one of the greatest desert deltas the world has ever seen. During the past century, efforts to harness Colorado River water, primarily for agriculture but also municipal uses and hydroelectricity production, have radically reshaped, or more accurately, decimated the delta. Upriver water management policies favoring consumptive use of the resource have greatly reduced the amount of water and silt reaching the delta, causing drastic, damaging changes to the physical characteristics of the landscape. As a result, the plants and animals that adapted over large periods of time to this vibrant, yet temperamental and unforgiving environment have suffered mightily. The Cucupá Indians who survived for some 2,000 years off the rich and diverse biota of the region consequently find themselves no longer able to do so.

PHOTO: Beginning in 1963, the delta received none of the Colorado's annual flood flows for 17 years while Lake Powell filled behind Glen Canyon Dam. CREDIT: USGS

The seeds for change were sown in 1901 when prospectors attempted to irrigate the desert lands of the Imperial Valley in southern California by diverting water through a privately built canal. Shortly thereafter, the swollen river revealed its true force, smashing through the canal and forging its own path before accidentally creating the Salton Sea. Undeterred, the powerful Imperial Irrigation District gained the support of the Bureau of Reclamation in 1921, calling for a more capable water delivery system to aid the flourishing agriculture businesses of the area. The Boulder Canyon Project Act included construction of what was then the world's biggest dam, known today as Hoover Dam, and behind it, Lake Mead, America's largest man-made storage reservoir."

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/article.cfm?contentid=2644

"A rocket-fuel chemical that has polluted drinking water supplies across the Southwest may also be contaminating a large portion of the nation's winter lettuce crop.

Tests commissioned by The Press-Enterprise found the chemical perchlorate in all 18 samples of winter lettuce and one sample of mustard greens. Roughly 90 percent of the nation's winter lettuce is grown in the Imperial and Coachella valleys and irrigated with Colorado River water. The river is contaminated from a Cold War-era manufacturing plant near Las Vegas that stopped making perchlorate in 1998."

Imperial Valley lettuce contaminated with perchlorate (rocket fuel)
http://www.ewg.org/news/story.php?id=1675

I seriously doubt that any SOSMM / National Vanguard / Aryan Nations / Stormfront / Skinhead is ever going to stand in protest _against_ corrupt corporations. It'll never happen.

The Glenn Canyon Dam is an atrocity. It destroyed thousands of years of Native history, nearly all of which was never examined scientifically. And then the criminals that built the thing named the resulting lake "Lake Powell" -- Powell, a man who loved those canyons, first navagated the river for the white man, gazed in awe at the ruins of the Native civilizations who used to live in the canyons, Powell who wrote about the overwhelming need to safeguard the canyon environments for future generations.

The fight for fresh water is going to be another bloody one. The faswcist regime's invasion and indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan to seize control of oil is going to be NOTHING compared to the fight that's coming for fresh water, count on it.

"I seriously doubt that any SOSMM / National Vanguard / Aryan Nations / Stormfront / Skinhead is ever going to stand in protest _against_ corrupt corporations. It'll never happen. "
Doubting it, and then making a claim that it will never happen, sounds like you are still in conflict over the concept Fred. When you make up your mind let us know. And by us, I mean everyone who is reading this.

I don't know why it would seem so far fetched given the ideologies of at least some of those groups you mentioned. It seems quite likely actually. I don't know what skinhead actually means as far as groups go, as I have seen shaved heads sported by so many men, and even some women, but SOS members have repeatedly stated thier disgust for agribusiness for thier treatment and thier attraction of illegal immigrants.
I don't know if that were to be true of WN/NA, but I wouldn't make an assumption like you did knowing that they didn't want to have races other than European in thier vicinities.
Most Minutemen would likely participate also. Part of the MMPII project was to target businesses that are using illegal immigrants and hiding that fact.
I would participate, and try to organize one also, but as I stated plainly before, it cannot involve denouncing US borders, soveriegnty, or "this is our land, we are taking it back" Aztlan separatists.
Make it about agribusiness abuse of laws and humanity only

If they did protest industrial agribiz, it would be to bring up the immigration issue.

Duh!....That's exactly why they and I would do it. Why would that be a problem?

> Make it about agribusiness / only

(steering the issue away from what they don't want)


> to bring up the immigration issue. - "exactly"

(steering the issue TO what they do want)


see any problem ?

not I said the spider to the fly

Well Hex,
Obviously I don't want to protest for open borders/Aztlan/mexico.
But I would for removing the evil corporate monsters hands from the victim. But yes, I'd want that victim returned to his country afterwards.
If that is a dealbreaker, then someone else would be attempting to steer the protests as well. But if attacking the devil in a concerted approach is not a worthy goal due to another agenda, then I don't believe it is the true goal

the "deal" is first you get to EXCLUDE what you don't want, but then INCLUDE what you do want

double standard

and it exposes that you're not really interested in social justice - only in manipulating another angle as a stepping stone in your agenda using privilege you demand (the privilege to decide what's included or excluded) while denying that very privilege to others.

So it shows 3 things

1.) you don't really "get" the point of protesting agribusiness - which is the exploitation of BOTH sides - which SHOULD be an over-riding concern compared to pushing your agenda

2.) you think your agenda is better than others and has privileged status (not that you would be expected to support the opposing agenda, but that you automaticly consider your own to be superior and thus necessary for your participation compared to people of the opposing agenda who would be able to drop thiers in favor of the more important point that agribusiness hurts all people)


3.) your agenda is the only real concern and other actually more important issues such as factors that impact ALL sides INCLUDING people not camped in EITHER agenda - (also being poisoned by the pesticides agibusiness uses and the downward pressure of labor standards for example) - are ignored in order to push it

so you ignore how agibusiness hurts people on both sides of the issue, then you deny & demand the privilege of steering the protest, then you ignore how agribusiness hurts people outside the issue as well

this little test beautifully demonstrated exactly what John said to begin with - and your own words did the deed

Yes and no.

The protest does not have to include my agenda. But neither do I want it to include any other. The poisonings as you mentioen is one point of attack. The misuse of people is another one.
My reasons for doing so remain, but they do not have to be inclusive in the protest.
So if you really want to have help in crippling the ag businesses that do all of those, than I'll help. If another agenda comes along with it as I mentioned , I'll go it alone

> (don't want to) include any other

> (just to) bring up the immigration issue -

"That's exactly why they and I would do it."

"I'd want that victim returned to his country"


So which is it PR man ? All this bathwater splashing around is starting to get old-as-the-mold on your underware, and things have barely dried out from your last tantrum...


"Yes and no"

try yes _OR_ no, Mr. waffle

your "reasons for doing so" are at the very heart of the matter - which is what is clear to us

So is the rhetoric. I don't know how much plainer I can be without resorting to the personal attacks like I've just read.
Nor do I understand or even recognize the flag.
Here is my agenda:
1) stop illegal immigration
2) stop those who use illegal immigrants.
3)Stop those who aid those who use illegal immigrants
4) enforce all laws. Concentrating on those that are illegal immigrant related ( here is the part that helps you. AG industries, the people that support them, the politicians that front for them; and the buyers that both profit from it, and perpetuate it by being apathetic or indifferent to the the in-equality of AG industry practices; are all going to be common enemies.

The equality thing is quite encompassing. The foundation for equality is in our constitution. The administration of equality is through laws and law enforcement. Currently, we have selective or no enforcement. By joining in an action with others who have an agenda that seeks to ignore the intent of law, or the laws themselves would not be in keeping with the equality portion of my platform. So that is why I would not wish to march alongside someone who's wish it was to avoid or weaken the laws effect. But if another entity's wish was to have equality enforced as the laws original intent was so stated; Then I'd join.
The American government was never meant to be used to exploit other governments and whole groups of peoples. It has worked out that way for some people though. That doesn't mean that we are all corrupt ,or that the premise is. But getting control of it again will be hard, but I don't believe it to be impossible.
If AG industries stopped getting so many free rides and passes on law enforcement; If the demons that have control of it now were exposed, targeted, and attacked by legislative, legal, and enforcement means; The greedy bastards would have to retreat from the industry. This might return the AG industry to a more localized control, ie; family farms, and the culture of exploitation would be much more difficult to employ. So would the use of improper use of chemicals, irrigation; shipping; etc. The giant corps. have an enormous advantage in that they can evade and defer enforcement actions by political clout. Smaller family farms really never had this advantage. When the government came with inspectors, they had some fear. Global corporations have little to fear.
With that stated, I don't have any objection to family farms in any other country either. And if the price of food goes up for awhile, which I doubt will be very long, there are some unavoidable side effects to solutions.
One thing I don't want to march for though, is to solely bring the AG industry up to some percieved standards that would appease the agrieved parties without addressing the overall issue of enforcing laws that were meant to keep all of this in-equality from happening in the first place. Law enforcement must be equal as well. Any thing less would be subverting the democratic process here, and just setting the stage for a future, much larger battle, or further empowering the global AG intrests.

> Name calling is back

oh my god - the horror !

what a terrible thing to call someone - waffler

(especially when it's true)

Suit yourself Hex....

I'll go it alone

> Doubting it, and then making a claim that it will never
> happen, sounds like you are still in conflict over the
> concept Fred. When you make up your mind let us
> know. And by us, I mean everyone who is reading
> this.

You seem to be laboring under a number of unfortunate misconceptions about what motivates the SOSMM et al. crowd. Indeed, you seem to have bought into their public relations claims that they're against "illegal immigration" and not against dark skin.

Here. Let me spell it out for you.

Corrupt corporations that hire "illegals" won't be protested to any significant degree because said corporations don't care, politicians don't care, and people who purchase the goods and services of such corporations don't care. What they care about are the economics of cheap labor.

Is that clear enough for you to understand? Sorry that I don't have crayons to draw pictures so that'll have to do.

Since you've not been paying attention, I'll reitterate that it's overwhelmingly evident that "illegal immigration" isn't what these people oppose and are against, not as their primary motivational bevahvioral factor. What they're against -0- according to their words and actions -- is their perceived notions that non-white people bringing non-white culture evidences the death of white supremacy and white society -- not to mention the higher standard of living enjoyed by whites as compared against blacks and browns.

No offense intended.

You are not a mind reader, just another phony seer who tries to convince others that you have that ability. As I mentioned to Hex,
I'll go it alone

We'll miss you. }:-}