It wasn't quite nine when I arrived and parked. The day labor center is situated on Laguna Canyon Road, which is basically a long, two-way stretch from the 5 down to Laguna. It is a small area fenced off with a low chain-link fence and a small building with an office and a restroom. There are bleachers for seating for the day laborers, and the volunteers running the center provide snacks and coffee. A driveway loops off the highway and toward the center, creating a convenient drive-thru pickup area which can be exited just as easily. There are a few other businesses on the highway, some of which sell building materials, but the stretch of road is largely wild and beautiful.
SOS was set up across the street from the center; counter demonstrators protested in the area beside the center itself. Before exiting the vehicle, I made a sign that read "SOS Fans the Flames of Racial Tension", which is the essential reason I oppose them and their efforts. Unfortunately, I forgot to make the other sign I was planning on making, which would have said, "This Land Is Your Land; This Land Is My Land.--Woody Guthrie, a REAL American Patriot". As I walked to the crosswalk, two other parties converged with me on the corner. One was a group that appeared to be of the 'green anarchist' sort: dressed in black, with animal rights tattoos and black bandannas, they came from the street perpendicular the Laguna Canyon Road. I had the impression that they were young (probably in their 20's) locals who rejected the notion that SOS is not racist and wants them to feel unwelcome in their community. One of them saw my sign and said, "Oh, good, I thought that was an SOS sign." I just smiled and shook my head.
The other party was of two middle-aged men, one white and the other Hispanic, probably in their thirties. The white man was the tall skinny man who SOS had mistaken for Frederic Rice. He noticed my shirt, which was created especially for BPII, and remarked about it. I didn't recognize the other man.
I joined the counter protestors on the day labor side. There weren't many of us, but we outnumbered the SOS supporters by about three-to-one. One professionally-dressed young woman, who was accompanied by a cameraman and who said she was a journalism student, asked me who besides M.E.Ch.A. organized the counterdemonstration. I explained to her to the best of my ability that since most of the groups that organize these counterdemonstrations, such as the La Tierra es de Todos Coalition, were occupied with planning the anti-war rally downtown, most of the people were just private individuals who cared deeply about the issue. "La Tierra de Todos, is that a human rights organization?" she asked. "It's probably more of an immigrant-rights, or workers-rights organization," I explained, after correcting her on the name of the organization. "I'm just gonna say human rights organization," she replied. "And what are you guys, protesters?" she asked. "No," I explained, "They are the protesters. We are counter protesters." "I just want to get it right," she contended.
I hope her report was just for a school project, because in all of the several takes she took, she said "La Tierra de Todos" and called us "protesters". Alas, I weep at the current state of journalism. I didn't get a chance to ask her where she was studying or if she was publishing, but later on, she was asking people for background noise for one recording, and also asked people to stand in the background with their signs. Still later, I saw her cross the street (to the cheers of the crowd, and, just incidentally, j-walking with police consent, not that media or people of influence have any special privileges or anything) and interview Joe Turner. Still later, I saw her interviewing a jornalero.
The rest of the counter protesters consisted of a few men who gave up on working that day and expressed their outrage at their harassers (never more than four or five at a time), many young people, but also quite a few who appeared to be in their thirties and forties. Various ethnicities were represented as well. Some of the counter protestors were affiliated with the International Socialist Organization (ISO), and they brought their large red banner reading "Queremos un Mundo Sin Fronteras" and draped it over the shrubbery bordering the road.
Shortly after I arrived, the cops approached a young man wearing a black bandanna over his nose and mouth and asked to speak with him. They pulled him aside, but I'm not sure what came of the conversation. One of the day-laborers-cum-counterprotesters was shouting homophobic insults at the members of SOS. The vegan guy and I looked at each other with an almost shocked look of disapproval. "That's not cool at all," said the vegan, "But I'm not gonna stop him." I wanted to say something to the man using the hate language, but I wasn't sure what was the best way to say what I wanted and elected to remain silent. (I was silent during many of the chants, as well. A staunch believer in the first amendment, I just couldn't bring myself to join in the "Go Home" chant. It seems suppressive of free speech.)
Shortly after arriving and talking to the reporter, I made another sign on the back of the first that paraphrased one of the three quotes I use as my signature on the SOS forum: "SOS Go Back To America". The joke was on the crucial question on the issue of 'illegal immigration': Is this Mexico or the United States? SOS believes firmly that "This land was Mexican once, and will be American forever", a claim I find shortsighted, and many people, laborers and activists included, firmly believe that this land is Mexico and is illegitimately occupied by the United States. I am not a hard-liner either way. I think there is room for everybody's opinion, or in the words of Subcomandante Marcos, "Un mundo donde caben muchos mundos". Many people say that Brazil is an African country; is there strife and conflict resulting from that assessment? I just think that everyone there needs to lighten up. Too many people take themselves and their opinions too seriously (including me sometimes). Especially with contentious issues such as that of 'illegal immigration', or 'economic refugeeism', or 'repatriation', or whatever you want to call it, which threatens to inflame hostilities that lie like powderkegs in many ignorant minds. I'm just afraid that these confrontations will provoke violence. The shouting matches are already too verbally violent. Unfortunately, I don't think anybody got my joke.
It wasn't too long before I proclaimed, "That's it, I'm going over there." I started walking down the street to the crosswalk. (This was before I had seen the reporter cross the street.) One of the anarchist kids caught up to me and warned me to walk down to the crosswalk, because the cops would be looking for any reason to bother us. I thanked him and took the walk. As soon as I got to the other side, a cheer went up across the street. I almost blushed.
I walked right up to Oldpreach and asked, "Don?" He turned and extended his hand. "Ben?" We had hoped to meet earlier, but had never had the chance, so I took advantage of the opportunity to talk to him, the only one I am really friendly with. We talked the inherent hypocrisies he sees in our arguments. He pointed out that despite the fact that wherever they go they are called racists, their Mexican-American members are called coconuts by the same people who make the accusation. "It's like, on the one hand, he wants to make this horrible accusation of us, who just want the law enforced, and on the other and, you wanna use this racist language." Since 'coconut' means someone who is 'brown on the outside and white on the inside', the very use of the term places racial identity over ideological, religious, national, or individual identity. In a certain sense, this is racist, since it assumes that every person from a certain racial background should have the same outlook on a certain political issue.
We also discussed the events of the day. He was satisfied with the turnout on his side, and I was just glad to see other people there on ours. Outnumbering them was just a bonus. "I heard that ANSWER was gonna bring 200 people on a bus before the peace march, but it looks like that didn't happen." "Whoever said that doesn't speak for ANSWER," he informed me. I asked about whom from the boards was there, and he helped me identify some of the people I had heard of from the internet on our side.
Don is actually glad that SOS's protests draw so many counter protesters. They necessitate a police presence and draw the attention of more media than SOS could muster alone. He gave me the example of the Alhambra Home Depot protest. "The last thing Home Depot wants their customers to see is a large angry crowd with helicopters circling overhead. We could never get the ghettobird on our own."
But we also discussed the inconsistencies I see in their arguments. I pointed out that, while they constantly criticize socialism, they also criticize Mexico's elitist system, saying that PEMEX should share more with the people so they won't need to come here. And that Finland just got ranked as the country with the highest standard of living as the result of a combination of wealth and socialism. They say that Mexicans should "fix their own country", instead of coming here, without recognizing the efforts of those who do struggle, many of them leftists and unionists, to better the lot of the common man. I reminded him that AMLO's PRD was ripe to ride the wave of populist leftist sentiment in Latin America to its northernmost crest, with all the possibilities that the world has seen in Venezuela, for example, open to them.
That's another reason I criticize SOS members. They only recognize the negative aspects of immigration, demographic shift, and Mexican and Chicano culture. They devalue the work of the artists who dedicate their lives to the improvement of the community through art and education (Judy Baca is the prime example). They understand the value of labor to the economy, and hence the willingness in the corporate sector to fight for lax border security, but as a largely conservative bunch, they do not recognize the inherent value of labor as a physical, moral, and spiritual discipline. They belittle the efforts of teachers who attempt to open minds and introduce new modes of thinking and questioning, calling ethnic studies classes 'brainwashing'. Where do they think the next generation of teachers, social workers, district attorneys, public defenders, charity workers, etc. are coming from? Educated Chicanos and other Latinos are filling these positions, and in larger numbers than whites. I wonder if it has anything to do with the sense of social responsibility that a Chicano education instills?
I met another SOS member who told me, "We’re in favor of legal immigration, just not illegal immigration." I'm not sure he heard my retort. All I said was that we'd prefer to do it legally too, except that it takes so long and the need is so bad. Another SOS member asked me about my avatar in the forum. "It's Cantinflas, Mario Moreno." I don't believe I got the chance to explain that Cantinflas was the greatest comedic actor of the Mexican golden age of cinema. He recurring role was as an underdog who succeeded by using his wits, usually humiliating the powerful in the process. I guess I just suspected that of course everyone knows who Cantinflas is. "Oh I like him. He looks so cool." I thanked her for the compliment.
I met a few other people, though not many whose handles I recognized. Some of them asked me questions. "I'd better get back" I told Don. "All right," he said, "But have you met Joe?" I told him that I had met him briefly, once, over the phone, when I called in to Charles Kirkby's public access show What's Right With America. "Well do you want to meet him?" I said sure and he went to go talk to him.
"You're Benjamin?" He was unshaven, wearing the SOS Uncle Sam shirt, and must have handed someone his California flag for the meeting. "You're shaking hands with a racist." I realized later that I should have said, "You're shaking hands with an anarchist-communist-socialist" in retort, but my wits were not that quick. I just said it was nice to meet him. "You drove down from Santa Barbara, huh?" I was a little surprised that he remembered the call. "Yeah, well, I was gonna be in town for the anti-war rally, so I thought I'd come by and meet some of the people." "How long you guys gonna be out here?" he asked, apparently assuming I was with some group. "I'll pro'lly stay till eleven, to try to get up to downtown in time." "Look, they made us shirts by proxy," he said to a fellow SOSer, eyeballing my Reconquista T-shirt. "Yeah, I got this one at BPII." That seemed to gratify him.
As I passed a pair of day laborers on the way back on the other side, I overheard one tell the other, "Pregúntale." The other responded, "No habla Español." By that time I was sure they were talking about me, so I asked them, "¿Quién no?" So the first one asked me where I got my monal (Mexican-style bag of woven wool), to which I responded, "En una tienda de segunda en el valle de San Fernando," doubting that that was the question he really wanted to ask me. I'll bet they were really wondering about SOS.
Returning to the other side, some people asked me how the confrontation with SOS went. I told them that while I got some dirty looks. that most of them were polite. However there was not much we could agree on. But it was no reason we couldn’t behave and discuss our problems like human beings.
"You might as well be talking to that lightpost," said a woman who appeared to be in her early thirties. " They're still humans, and I refuse to give up hope," was my answer.
I chatted with a middle-aged woman who was standing beside me. She was affiliated with El Centro Cultural de Mexico, Orange County's momentarily-homeless cultural center. She had a pretty positive attitude.
It was at about that time that a young man standing beside me ground an American flag into the dirt, yelling taunts at the SOS members. He then turned around and bent over, running the dusty flag between his legs. At that point, two of the center's volunteers came up and reproached him. "What are you doing? Don't do that! That's exactly what they want. They call us un-American and you're playing right into their hands!" I was hoping that he would take advantage of the opportunity to assert his right to freedom of speech and his right to his opinion, even if it was anti- or un-American. But I'm not sure he even had that opinion. He wouldn't even respond to them, instead simply asking them to move aside. He was just trying to provoke SOS members and didn't seem to care about anything else. A young woman behind him took up the argument in his stead. "We're here every day," they said, referring to their volunteer work at the center, which is becoming embattled. "You're here only on the weekends." And it pretty much ended there.
Shortly thereafter, an older woman in loose-fitting, free-flowing dress came up the southbound side of Laguna Canyon Road. She seemed to be talking to herself and walked right up to two of the cops and asked, "Where's Jason?" "He's not here, Cindy. Stay off the street, please," they answered her. From their response, we surmised that she was a local, possibly homeless woman, and possibly suffering from some form of mental illness. She assented to the cop's demand and unfurled a bandanna bearing a marijuana leaf. "Read it," she told the cop. The lettering read, "God made weed, man made booze. Who do you trust?" A smile crossed my face. Some of the counter protestors did not like seeing her on our side. They were afraid SOS would assume she was with us and paint us all as drugged-out hippies, which they have already done. Some people even yelled at her. But we couldn't deny her her right to free speech. And I have a feeling I wasn't the only one that was sympathetic to her one-woman legalization protest. So she continued unmolested.
I had noticed a middle-aged Anglo man with a brimmed hat standing toward the rear of the counter protest and holding a clipboard earlier, but did not pay him much heed. Until I heard a young woman call him "Duane". Then I asked him if he was Duane Roberts, which he affirmed. Then he started going into detail about who the SOS members were, and about all the dirt he had uncovered on them via internet and other investigative methods. He also said that Lupe Moreno had left the group after the arrival of nazis at the last Laguna Beach protest, which may be where Leslie got that idea, which has been contested on the SOS forum.
An organizer with the ISO joined in on the conversation. When Duane mentioned that Joe Turner had been arrested in Riverside, the ears of a woman next to me perked up. "Riverside?" she asked, and I explained the context of the city's mention. She was from Riverside and had attended several of the anti-SOS demonstrations.
I was glad to see so many active, committed people there.
It was getting to be near eleven, my intended departure time, so as I wrangled free from my conversation with Duane, who was quite eager to share all his information, I told him that it seemed like he did quite a bit of research to uncover the connections between SOS and the White Nationalist organizations, and to keep up the good work. I told him to look out for me on the boards, and that I was Rockero420. "Yeah, I've seen your posts. You came all the way down from Santa Barbara?"
I asked Duane if he was going to L.A. for the peace march, but he said he was going to stay until the end of the SOS event. "The most interesting stuff always happens in the last 45 minutes of any rally. That's when all the arrests happen, because the cops start getting cranky." Apparently he was right, because not only was one counter protester arrested after I left, but the nazis arrived also. Frankly I'm glad I left early.
Just then another reporter and photographer arrived, these ones from the Laguna Journal. The reporter was copying the statements on peoples' signs. A man standing next to me must've assumed that he was from a right-wing publication, because he demanded to see his press pass and was asking him provocative questions.
After he wrote down what my signs said, he asked my name. I only gave him my handle "Rockero420", which was difficult for him to understand. "Ashamed to hold that sign, huh?" he asked. I just didn't want to be credited by name since it would be very easy to misinterpret the signs without any context, which he didn't ask for. Again, I was disappointed with the superficial nature of the journalist's investigation.
I set off on my hike back to my car, shouting to the laborers as I exited, "¡Qué Dios los bendiga!" As I drove past the demonstration area, I held my bag with the attached flags out the window and honked repeatedly. I received another loud cheer from the counterdemonstrators, and one of the cops yelled futilely "Quiet!" after me. I guess it's never too late for Authority to assert itself. And off I headed to Los Angeles.

Excellent, thanks!

It's great seeing how sane, rational, honest, and reasonable that anti-hate activists are and how easily it contrasts with the SOSMM / Aryan Nations / National Vanguard / Skinhead side of things.

It's also good to see that such evil is confronted every place it shows its white Republican face.

I didn't read this again here, but in this same report on the SOS site you said that you had identified various counterprotestors to SOS people.

This is not acceptable, because it endangers those you identify.

SOS members have said some crazy unreal things about counterprotestors and have alleged violations of the law that never occurred.

If they want to know names it is so they can target people, either for arrest or other forms of retribution.

Some people would consider your actions close to acting like a snitch.

Thanks for the great account of that day's events.

If it wasn't for the constant debasement of Mexican's SOS might have had a chance at building credibility.

Their hate based rhetoric has alienated mainstream Americans who listed immigration reform as a key political issue on recent polls. They don't want to be labeled racist and don't share the attitudes towards Mexicans that is prevalent at the SOS forum.

I agree with your statement of not wanting to give up on the SOS. Inside every bigot there is a baby waiting to cry. Their inner child has been injured and they feel that they need someone to victimize to relieve their psychological pain and suffering. It’s the cycle of abuse, disillusion and failure that repeats itself with every generation. Racism is not an inherent trait, but a learned behavior. It only takes 21 days to change a behavior. The only requirement is the sincere willingness to change.

Keep up the great work!

Nice report. Good to see you goons again. BTW have you seen our thread with all your pictures? Too funny!

http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5046

As far as retribution goes, from now on we will be humiliating you as much as possible by posting photo's of your creepy antics so you best behave yourselves.

If you are not a frothing at the mouth fool and you can protest peacefully then you have nothing to worry about.

Like we do not have a boat load of information on you goons? We do not post it, or use it as your side does to intimidate.(Daune Roberts.) What a crackup !

Even here on this site, I have one guy that is going after my family...uh, you speak of us?????

Hypocrites galore? Wah wah wah! We have our info plastered everywhere, and you cry about his report ???

Admit it, if is your side that is dangerous, save the delusional Fred Rice, who still thinks we are Republicans. Sorry Fred, the heat is getting to you on all those bike rides, most of us depise Bush, and are no longer affiliated with any party. There are many lefties with us too.

This article is interesting because the author attempts to point out exceptions on each side that move beyond polarization. Dialogue with the opposition instead of name calling can lead to a greater understanding of the source problem. The publicity effects of the Minutemen vs. ISO protests could be beneficial to BOTH sides of the debate if the focus is placed on corporations taking advantage of economic inequality and immigrant labor. The important point is not to devolve and divide into nationalism and ethnic centrism, instead to focus on unifying class dynamics among all people and business partnerships between the Bush regime and Vincentes Fox. The topic of Plan Puebla Panama and WTO globalization should be brought up also to avoid the Minutemen being a distraction from the upcoming threats of neoliberalism like Plan Puebla Panama..

Maybe a protest vs. counterprotest could happen at an industrial agriculture corporation that takes advantage of illegal immigrants by underpaying and exploiting workers, exposing to petrochemical pesticide toxins, etc. This would bring the attention of the public to the effects of agribusiness on the ecosystem and their exploitation of immigrant workers..

If the Minutemen would be willing to visit a maquiladora sweatshop on the Mexican side of the human made border maybe they would be in a better position to dialogue without appearing to be racist. Sometimes a challenge to learn can result in self discovery. Maybe a trip to the drought ridden Colorado delta town of El Golfo de Santa Clara would educate the Minutemen about the negative effects of Rio Colorado agua consumption by Imperial Valley iceberg lettuce agribusiness corporations. Yes, those same corporations that exploit both legal and illegal immigrant labor to their fullest profit margin..

"Just before the Colorado crosses the US/Mexico border 75 percent of its flow is diverted into the All-American canal. From there the water is flushed into wasteful irrigation systems and it eventually trickles down into the Salton Sea, once an important stop on the Pacific flyway for migratory birds now a toxic soup of fertilizer and pesticide runoff. Instead of a bird paradise, the Salton Sea has become a killing ground, the avian equivalent of cancer alley.

The water that eventually makes it to Mexico-much of it run-off from Arizona and California alfalfa and cotton fields-- is nearly as salt-laden and toxic as that in the Salton Sea. The situation is so extreme that the Bureau of Reclamation was compelled to build a $211 "reverse-osmosis" desalination plant at Yuma, Arizona. But that plant, built in 1992, has only operated for a year."

http://www.counterpunch.org/colorado.html

Since the Minuteman protests continue to dominate the border discussions, here is another important border topic that is being sidelined by the Minutemen vs. ISO/etc. debate..

"Mexico Solidarity Network Presents:

International Campaign for Justice in Juarez and Chihuahua October 20- 30, 2005

Activists from Juarez and Chihuahua, struggling against a decade-long string of largely unresolved femicides and injustices in the maquiladora sector will travel to three regions of the United States - Southwest, Upper Midwest and Mid South. An activist from Ciudad Juarez or Chihuahua City will speak on the struggle to end the femicides and injustices in the maquiladora sector. A representative of Mexico Solidarity Network will discuss the economic and social context in which the femicides occur.

Femicide in Juarez and Chihuahua: For more than a decade, the cities of Chihuahua and Juarez, near the US-Mexico border, have been killing fields for young women, the site of over 400 unsolved femicides. Despite the horrific nature of these crimes, authorities at all levels exhibit indifference, and there is strong evidence that some officials may be involved. Impunity and corruption has permitted the criminals, whoever they are, to continue committing these acts, knowing there will be no consequences.

A significant number of victims work in the maquiladora sector - sweatshops that produce for export, with 90% destined for the United States. The maquiladoras employ mainly young women, at poverty level wages. In combination with lax environmental regulations and low tariffs under the North America Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the maquiladoras are amassing tremendous wealth. Yet despite the crime wave, they offer almost no protection for their workers. High profile government campaigns such as Ponte Vista (Be Aware), a self defense program, and supplying women with whistles have been ineffective and are carried out mainly for public relations purposes.

Making the global economic connections: Activists fighting gender violence highlight the roles of neoliberal economic policies, drug trafficking and the "war on drugs," militarization, and the evolving maquiladora sector to draw comparisons and link similar struggles in Mexico, Guatemala, and throughout the world. Despite the efforts of state and federal authorities to keep them quiet, the families of victims continue to make small advances in the struggle for justice. Often families suffer threats and defamation by government officials for making one simple demand: STOP THE FEMICIDE."

http://www.mexicosolidarity.org/Speaking%20Tours/Justice%20in%20Juarez%20and%20Chihuahua%20Tours/

luna moth

I'd be interested in an agribusiness protest. I cannot go to mexico though. I'd be willing to try an organize a coordinated one up here in the sacramento valley to coincide with others. I will still fight for American nationality, but I'll also fight to prevent the abuse of it, or an abuse by an alliance of those who would employ it in an inhumane and uncivilized manner.
We have a new congress person here, and although she claims to be a democratic, pro liberal; she also plainly wrote to me that we needed the immigrants labor pool to meet the demands of seasonal businesses. The seasonal businesses pay below living wages, employ below working standard conditions, and depend on wage earners tax supported programs to make up the differences. So yes, On that I would march with you.
But if the marching includes banners say that death to America, This is mexican land, or any thing along those lines, support open borders and the right to freely flow from latin America to America and Canada, Count me out, as that will just make matters worse for right now.
But a concerted attack on the agribusiness alone...you bet...I'd do it. And help

I think luna moth is seeing the light (lol, get it?).

One significant issue is "rights". The ability for people to live well depends on their ability to get a range of protections from harm and exploitation.

The immigrant rights organizations believe that by protecting the rights of undocumented aliens, we prevent splitting society into two classes of people: one with rights, and one without. Some individuals believe that a reason many undocumented can get work is by being paid below minimum wage; make it difficult to underpay, and these workers are less employable.

The anti-immigrant movement believes that you can discourage immigration by restricting the rights of undocumented aliens further. That's why they go after things like health care access, education, and to a certain extent, police protection. They also advocate for turning all government agencies into enforcers for the INS/Border Patrol, in effect, creating a police state within a state for all nonwhite people.

The general trend of democracy is inclusivity, and equal rights. The anti-immigrant movement is using a reactionary, backwards strategy of reducing rights. If they win, it'll probably backfire on them (and us) and increase exploitation.

~i'm having difficulty posting here. If this was posted multiple times, my apologies.

"Returning to the other side, some people asked me how the confrontation with SOS went. I told them that while I got some dirty looks. that most of them were polite. However there was not much we could agree on. But it was no reason we couldn’t behave and discuss our problems like human beings.
"You might as well be talking to that lightpost," said a woman who appeared to be in her early thirties. " They're still humans, and I refuse to give up hope," was my answer. "

I'm with SOS. At the next Laguna rally can you help facilitate a meeting between me and a few select members of the counter protestors? I just wanted to start a civlized dialogue with those I know can speak with. Specifically Leslie, you, and maybe the one with the "Stormfront = Sewermen" sign.

here are some pics, sorry they are so late

Rockero,

You know, cops are still human beings when they kill or incarcerate you: any criminal is still a human being.

You seem to have done no research nor to have any real world clue of what is at stake here.

1. You are dealing with fascists or quasi-fascists and their Nazi allies.

2. You are dealing with the remnant of the Patriot / Militia movement that gave us the Oklahoma City bombing, the Turner Diaries, etc.

3. You are dealing with an anti-migrant movement that has its origins in the Klan Border Watch put together by ex Grand Dragon David Duke back in the 70s.

4. You clearly haven't faced off with the Minutemen. Having a thug like Jim Chase 2 feet from you with a shotgun and an itchy attitude would reorient you. Highly recommended.

5. I don't think you have the first clue about what _violence_ means. These asshoes like Don Silva are out on the border with GUNS.

They are HUNTING people. WHAT PART OF hunting people DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

6. The people in SOS are creating an atmosphere in which _anything goes_ against migrants and Chicana/os. WHAT PART OF BEING A target DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

7. SOS and the Minutemen would _love_ to be able to target people they consider "leaders" on our side. They just can't believe we don't operate on the Turner / Gilchrist "great Furher" model. They don't even know who has organized the Baldwin Park raliies against them.

They WANT to know so they can finger "leaders' to the fricking POLICE.

Now then...

I know what YOU look like.

I'm going to point you out to other people, just like you point out people on our side to your SOS buddies.

I'm going to tell them not to identify themselves to you unless they want SOS or the Minute Nazis to be able to track them down, or unless they want to be targeted by the police.

And if you ever try to take a picture of me your film will never see print.

Rockero,

You know, cops are still human beings when they kill or incarcerate you: any criminal is still a human being.

You seem to have done no research nor to have any real world clue of what is at stake here.

1. You are dealing with fascists or quasi-fascists and their Nazi allies.

2. You are dealing with the remnant of the Patriot / Militia movement that gave us the Oklahoma City bombing, the Turner Diaries, etc.

3. You are dealing with an anti-migrant movement that has its origins in the Klan Border Watch put together by ex Grand Dragon David Duke back in the 70s.

4. You clearly haven't faced off with the Minutemen. Having a thug like Jim Chase 2 feet from you with a shotgun and an itchy attitude would reorient you. Highly recommended.

5. I don't think you have the first clue about what _violence_ means. These asshoes like Don Silva are out on the border with GUNS.

They are HUNTING people. WHAT PART OF hunting people DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

6. The people in SOS are creating an atmosphere in which _anything goes_ against migrants and Chicana/os. WHAT PART OF BEING A target DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

7. SOS and the Minutemen would _love_ to be able to target people they consider "leaders" on our side. They just can't believe we don't operate on the Turner / Gilchrist "great Furher" model. They don't even know who has organized the Baldwin Park raliies against them.

They WANT to know so they can finger "leaders' to the fricking POLICE.

Now then...

I know what YOU look like.

I'm going to point you out to other people, just like you point out people on our side to your SOS buddies.

I'm going to tell them not to identify themselves to you unless they want SOS or the Minute Nazis to be able to track them down, or unless they want to be targeted by the police.

And if you ever try to take a picture of me your film will never see print.

Why the hostility??

"You know, cops are still human beings when they kill or incarcerate you: any criminal is still a human being."

Do you have some kind of Rodney King, fear of cops complex? At the last Laguna rally, the police were fine. They were nice to me. I thanked them for being cool and driving away those Nazis.

"You seem to have done no research nor to have any real world clue of what is at stake here."

How do you know? I'm sure he's at least trying.

"1. You are dealing with fascists or quasi-fascists and their Nazi allies."

We aren't fascists of any kind. The Nazis are not our allies. The July 30th rally was very sloppy in that everyone was intermingled. It was my first rally so when the Nazis came, it was a surprise to me. I just walked around like whatever, so did everyone else. I spoke with Baldy a bit but didn't even realize who this guy is until I got home and looked him up. Much of the other SOS members either left when they came or just did whatever cause they didn't care. Anyone talking to Baldy or whatever were just talking, so what. Just like Rockero came to talk to us on the Sept. 24th rally. But again, July 30th was sloppy and some pictures got misunderstood and lied about. But that won't deter us.

"2. You are dealing with the remnant of the Patriot / Militia movement that gave us the Oklahoma City bombing, the Turner Diaries, etc."

I dunno what your deal is, but illegal immigration is how those terrorists brought about 9/11. And you want open borders? We oppose the government's failure to secure the borders, but we aren't gonna bomb it. Timothy McVeigh doesn't speak for us.

"3. You are dealing with an anti-migrant movement that has its origins in the Klan Border Watch put together by ex Grand Dragon David Duke back in the 70s."

Absolutely not. Our origins are immediately in SOS. The independent protesters and some of SOS have origins also in patriots such as Jim Gilchrist, the MMP itself, and those mentioned in "Fighting Immigration Anarchy" if you wish to read that book. We also have origins in the population growth problems this nation faces.

"4. You clearly haven't faced off with the Minutemen. Having a thug like Jim Chase 2 feet from you with a shotgun and an itchy attitude would reorient you. Highly recommended. "

Either you're paranoid or just screwing around. Jim isn't a thug. He would not kill in anger. I'm sure a conversation with him is highly recommended, and I don't mean that sarcastically. Just leave your bullhorn at home.

"5. I don't think you have the first clue about what _violence_ means. These asshoes like Don Silva are out on the border with GUNS.

They are HUNTING people. WHAT PART OF hunting people DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? "

Don isn't an asshole. If there are guns, they're for protection, not hunting. Protection in situations they avoid anyways. They aren't hunting. They are a border watch operation.

"6. The people in SOS are creating an atmosphere in which _anything goes_ against migrants and Chicana/os. WHAT PART OF BEING A target DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?"

You don't see us with bullhorns or bullying tactics. You don't see us charging into buildings and pushing people around like what happened to a recent Friends of the Border Patrol meeting. Exactly what kind of game are you trying to pull?

"7. SOS and the Minutemen would _love_ to be able to target people they consider "leaders" on our side. They just can't believe we don't operate on the Turner / Gilchrist "great Furher" model. They don't even know who has organized the Baldwin Park raliies against them. "

What do you mean by target? There are some leaders on your side that make it no secret. And yeah, we have to find out who they are and make people aware of their influence. Not exactly familiar with the "great Furher" term, I'll have to look that up. I see great leadership in Joe Turner.

"They WANT to know so they can finger "leaders' to the fricking POLICE."

Well, yeah. Especially if they're a threat to us and to American society.

"Now then...

I know what YOU look like.

I'm going to point you out to other people, just like you point out people on our side to your SOS buddies."

What do you mean? Are you pointing him out to others on your side, which is really his side also? He's trying to be diplomatic here. What, is that not allowed? Is that something you lack? I'm not sure if he was pointing anything or anyone out when he was speaking with Don or Joe. But it's not like we're concerned enough to keep track of those at the Laguna Beach day labor center. We just want to protest with our reasons.

"I'm going to tell them not to identify themselves to you unless they want SOS or the Minute Nazis to be able to track them down, or unless they want to be targeted by the police."

Let it be their choice if they want to identify themselves of not. He's trying to be diplomatic and I respect that and wanted to do the same. The term "Minute Nazis" is false because there aren't any. Minuteman Project and Nazis are separate opposing groups of people. If Rockero were to point any of you out to the Nazis that showed up at the end of the protest, then you got something there. But I seriously doubt that's the case. I doubt these days even the police will care enough to target any of you. Not yet, until they're given the cue to help Americans fix the illegal immigration problem. Again, either you're paranoid or screwing around.

"And if you ever try to take a picture of me your film will never see print."

Is that a threat? I'm very disappointed. I'm sure if you see him and ask him to not take a picture of him, he will gladly comply. Did he even take pictures of your side at the last rally? I only saw a picture of us, none of your side, unless I'm mistaken.

I really wanted to have some civilized discussion with some of the people on your side of the road but with hostility like yours, I'm not sure if I can now. Here's a tip, if all you do is act paranoid, threaten people, and stick to the tactics your side does, you'll never see any progress. Not that there should be any in illegal immigration anyways. But you can at least start a conversation if you're up for it. But if you put the other person in fight-or-flight mode(we'll choose flight before engaging in unnessary fighting), you'll get nowhere.

> illegal immigration is how those terrorists brought about 9/11.


:cough: - got any evidence to back that up ?

Or is that something you swallowed from your puppeteer



> They are a border watch operation.

more like a border SHOOT safari


> You don't see us with bullhorns

or airhorns ? That's some intelligent reply - BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !

and is that anything goes or anything said ? Megaphones are deadly - guns are for "protection"



> There are some leaders on your side

the idea that people just come together as equals eludes you doesn't it



> I see great leadership in Joe Turner.


"Bring your bats, fellas. If we are lucky, we are gonna need them. PING"

bring your guns fellas, if we're lucky we'll get to shoot them

The 9/11 airplane highjackers were illegal immigrants, even if they didn't come from the Mexican border. Or wait, you don't consider that "illegal," so I guess they were in the US legally, right?

One of our guys had an airhorn, but did he cross the street and blow it into your ears? No.

If the border watch was a shoot safari, there would be thousands of illegals dead already.

I've interacted with Joe personally and he would not start a fight with any bats. No one brought any bats afterall so that point is invalid. You folks always twist the things we say and do so much, it will become invalid. Even the term racist will become obsolete by people like you and will simply mean someone you don't like, rather than what a racist really is.

But hey, at least Rockero doesn't seem to pull this shit and I'll talk to him on our side of the street. If any of the individuals from your side that I watned to talk to, wishes to talk, we can meet at the crosswalk south of the labor center.

> The 9/11 airplane highjackers were illegal immigrants

:cough: :cough: - I asked for EVIDENCE not doublespeak


> One of our guys had an airhorn

yes I know - I have video showing it being blown as "dialogue"

and yet here you are whining about megaphones.. At least you can TALK through them -



> thousands of illegals dead already.

but no MM shot anyone, and guns are for "protection" - REMEMBER ?



> Joe / would not start a fight with any bats.

no he just INCITES OTHERS as a "great leader" to do so...



> No one brought any bats afterall


maybe the big stink about it had something to do with it - no ?

but as the "great leader" requested you bring bats and you disobeyed him, what does that say about his leadership - or your need for it ?



> the term racist will become obsolete


in your wet dreams



> will simply mean someone you don't like


it's not about who we don't like - it's about who YOU don't like

for example you can't accuse US of being racists like 200 people to 1 do you




> pull this shit

well I've thrown out the baby with the bathwater again I guess, but then again since you've shat in it anyway and continue to splash it around, it's no big loss

you know it's funny you COME HERE (as opposed to the dying SOS website) and "pull shit" such as making unsupported allegations and claims to bolster your racist views, yet the moment they are refuted or even cited you start your pouting and whining, then attempt to PROJECT the whole mess onto the very people you've brought it to, while ignoring those allegations and claims as if they carry any validity and need no backing up with EVIDENCE

now I suppose it's up to us to DO YOUR DIGGING FOR YOU - AGAIN - so once again you can sit back and criticize while STILL not presenting any evidence, yet expect us to swallow your claims just like you did

and our failure to be as gullible as you, labels us as "shit twisters" yet you're also the one whining about "name calling"

well what a mess we find ourselves in - maybe you should just take a nap and soothe away that cranky whining - I'm sure you'll think of something to say to TWIST the situation around to your advantage...

after all that's why you're here isn't it ?

ps - the talc is standing by

I should have anticipated trouble. I should know better than to think I can perform any reconciliatory role between opposing factions. I suppose I am just too idealistic. Some people are accusing me of some bad stuff. I want to set the record straight.
When I crossed the street to speak with members of SOS, we talked a little about who was in attendance. The member I spoke with identified several members of his organization to me. I asked him if he recognized anybody from the counterprotesters' side, and he identified a few of them. He asked me if I could identify any of the counterprotesters, but not knowing any of them, I could not. (I did meet some of them later, but this was after I had already returned to the day labor side.) Back on the day labor side, I identified some SOS members to some of the counterprotestors, although only by handle, because I don't know anything more about any of them. Later on, when I posted my report of the events on the SOS forum, I mentioned some people by name, but stopped short of outright identifying anyone. I may have inadvertently helped them by saying that someone identified in one of their photos was not the person they thought it was, but not having any proof one way or the other, I retracted that statement. I also apologized to the person I made a claim about; it is unclear whether or not that person has accepted my apology. I am not an infiltrator or a spy. I believe the differences between SOS and their detractors, myself included, derive largely from a great difference in perspective, and that there is much progress to be made in the areas of human rights, workers rights, and freedom of speech, but it can only be accomplished with a spirit of cooperation. If I have done any of you any harm, I want to know about it. I refuse to remain in the shadows being attacked for trying to do what I think is right.

He's simply trying to trick people into supporting and backing off of exposing SOS's agenda and membership by spinning a web of lies and deceit

When his efforts fail he becomes frustrated and projects his own faults & failings using typical rhetorical games we've seen so many people do on here over the years...

All his games and tactics are old school and old news to me - he mistakes simple datamining techniques for "mind reading" and other exotic labels which - as with other rhetoric - he then flings at people smart enough to see through

It's not our fault he's not smart enough to fool us - it's his own fault for TRYING TO

I actually spend much time simply making fun of him since minus his obvious attempts to pull the wool over our eyes - including by using different handles - his efforts amount to little but a waste of time, so we might as well have some fun with him..

Hence "baby Timmy throwing a tantrum" with me powdering his butt with baby powder

(most people like him are pretty uptight so this has a disturbing quelling effect that throws him off balance)

You can see it does too - he demands "adults" to be coldly calculating with, but only in a narrow range of subjects he's comfortible with. Having a man rubbing baby powder on his butt isn't a subject he wants to entertain.. Butt then again if he didn't act like such a big cry baby in the first place I never would have thought of it to begin with.


The one recurring thought I keep having with SOS -

is this the best they have ? No wonder they're dying..

Hell they have all this money pouring into their astroturf movement and they still can't get it together enough to attract anything better than nazi racists - and only a handful at that !

Their "leaders" are shams, their spokesmen are obvious frauds & tricksters and their membership are nazis.

Wow - money well spent

Hex is obviously not being productive here. Rockero, hopefully we'll meet one day and talk. It seems like you want to find people who will talk in a civilized manner. So do I. So let's do this next time we're at the same event. Even if it's just a hand shake and hello, discuss what's going on at the event at the moment, at least that's a little bit more speaking terms and less hostile terms.

productive - that's a good one

if SOS members et al were interested in anything productive we wouldn't be subjected to multible handles, games and trickery now would we

a claim of high moral ground based on whining about being productive immediately devolves into the one track minded rut of immigration

"productive" is only used in that context..

there's nothing productive about selective privileged steering of issues always back to immigration - as has been stated, however it's interesting that you perceive light hearted fun as hostile and straight shooting frank discussion as uncivil, but fear not as I do have datamined dirt to post on SOS which is very revealing - so tell me - how hostile and uncivil would you find THAT compared to what you've been whining about so far ? (like crying over "mr. waffle")

Just play it safe and consider me NOT AN ADULT where your sure to stay dry on the high ground of kind civil controlled dialogue, away from that dark dirty
dangerous bathwater.

I hear it's lonely at the top but you might get Rockero to come up and play with you - go for it

I'm busy muck raking down here anyway, because I find THAT more productive and I'm not afraid of the water..


even yours