Save our State continues to defy the law: earlier this year, the 9th Circuit Court upheld the right of day laborers to solicit work under the 1st and 14th amendments in Comite de Jornaleros de Glendale v. City of Glendale.

LAGUNA BEACH, SEPTEMBER 25, 2005--At its peak, 40 day laborers were joined by 60 human rights advocates in opposition to a small group from Save Our State at the Day Labor Center in Laguna Beach, after only two days of concerted organizing.. Save Our State managed to muster about twenty people in its bid to prevent day laborers from soliciting employment at the Center, after four weeks of effort.

By scheduling their event for the morning of the international anti-war rally, Save Our State had hoped for little opposition but were outnumbered five to one by the jornaleros and dedicated supporters of immigrant rights.

In what was largely an exchange of taunts across Laguna Canyon Road interspersed with brief debate and a few chants, an assortment of protestors representing La Tierra es de Todos, assorted anarchists, the International Socialist Organization, and committed individuals confronted Save Our State's dwindling band. One anti-SOS protestor was detained and handcuffed. Whether he was charged or only detained remains unclear.

Although many of those who came out against SOS left early for the anti-war march, they propped trifolded anti-racist signs up in the parking lot and leaned them along the fence, leaving a clear message that SOS was not welcome in Laguna Beach. Passing motorists affirmed the message, honking and waving almost uniformly in favor of the day laborers. The sentiments expressed by motorists suggest Congressional candidate Jim Gilchrist's anti-migrant platform has little support from local residents. One anti-SOS at the rally protestor tore up a Gilchrist for Congress sign in a symbolic rejection.

In a surprise to protestors, neo-Nazis again appeared in support of Save Our State in the closing moments of the rally. SOS leader Joe Turner had announced that he would be "more than prepared" for a brawl, but the anti-SOS protestors had not anticipated a return of the neo-Nazi group. On July 30, SOS faced off against some of the same protestors in a noisy standoff that culminated in SOS holding U.S. flags amidst Nazi swastikas and Confederate flags. Reports are that SOS's Chicana spokesperson, Lupe Moreno, left the organization after that display. At this weekend's event, the neo-Nazis arrived without fanfare precisely at noon, the final minutes of the permitted rally, as SOS members were heading to their cars. Whatever the ten or so neo-Nazis' plans, whether to provoke a brawl or escort SOS out, the Laguna Beach police intervened, detaining one and ordering the others to leave. The neo-Nazis raised their arms in Nazi salutes at the protestors as they left.

The day labor supporters were escorted to their cars by the jornaleros.

On July 16, a contingent of SOS members handed out flyers opposing the day labor center at an art fair in the city. One anti-jornalero protestor was arrested at that event for wielding a knife. SOS may be returning for a third try at dismantling Baldwin Park's Danzas Indigenas monument, probably in October.

error

SOS has officially been SMASHED. If not for the twenty thousand protesters against the War in Los Angeles I'm sure that the SOS'ers would have gotten a much larger crowd.

We have all waisted too many Saturdays and too much gas money with the SOS losers. We have seen that they will never even have more than 50 supporters( and half of those are Stormfront,National Alliance, Aryan Vanguard, White Supremacist, Neo-NAzi's, and all other types of white trash hillbillies) There are bigger fish to fry. The Minute Klan, James Gilchrist, and Tom Tancredo.

Oh yeah, and El Vendido Andy Ramirez and his band of cubscouts "The Friends of the Border Patrol" have also recently been SMASHED.


Let us not forget the biggest Nazi we must SMASH, THE GOVERNATOR.


ViVA EL PUEBLO

Plz, for the love of everything good, plz keep it up!

When a big group of very badly dressed and oh so smelly teenagers shows up, it is the best entertainment we could ever ask for ! We loved all the threats about killing us if the cops were not there, (even tho we were there before the cops showed up, you could have been also to meet us.) and all the homophopic rants against us ! Hypocrites. I will say that a few of you were actually mellow and had a brain. Refreshing.

On a more serious note, SOS=NAZI's bluff has been totally exposed, as he did not show to 'beat me down', as he says he wants to do. Also, regarding your rants about my wife or whatever, my younger son has the following to say to you....

Lupe Moreno has never been a 'spokesperson' for SaveOurState. She came to the Lagoona protest on the 16th, but that was not a SaveOurState event!

Leslie, plz try to get the facts a bit better. Your account this time was a bit closer than before, but still had several mistakes. You just can not seem to get #'s right when it comes to protesters. it was 45 goons, 25-30 SaveOurState, 25 illegal Alien job stealers. The only # you did get correct was the Nazi's. There were 10 of them. My speculation is that they were planning on picking up where we left off, but then again, since do not ask them about their plans, we do not know.

Other than that, pretty good, save the fact that we did in fact shut the center down. I was there at 7am waiting for SOS=NAZI's to make good on his promise to beat me, and there were a total of 2 pickups from 7 am to 12 noon for a whopping 3 illegals stealing jobs and committing crimes.

Thank you Jesse Diaz for rallying the smellies !

Somebody ? wrote;

"and all other types of white trash hillbillies"

Hey, does anyone think this type of dialogue is beneficial to ever building a larger movement? Please tell me this was not an "anti-Minuteman" organizer who wrote this?

Classism is the greatest hurdle yet, so long as we continue this name calling, people will never get beyond cultural hatred to becoming organized. Even if this comment is not authentic, it seems to follow the thread of middle class "socialists" using slurs to put people down for being lower class. The "hillbillies" in Appalachia are also fighting coal mining corporations that dynamite their mountain homes, similar to people living in the hills of Mexico fight corporations taking minerales, bosques (timber) and agua. People everywhere are finding themselves struggling against the forces of neoliberalism and corporate plunder of "resources" yet we cannot see past two fucking European languages? Let's not find any common ground between different cultures, let's continue name calling instead so the corporations can continue unimpeded!!

It is equally a waste of time to read about the immigration uber alles (above all) cabal (ANSWER socialists) vs. the niemals (never) immigration cabal (aka Minutemen, SOS, neo-nazis, etc.). Hey, did it ever occur to anyone that maybe BOTH sides are wrong? Immigration based on economic hardship at the source is never desirable, the problem is economic hardship at origin. NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. are not going to fix this either. This isn't about the border wall (an ineffective "band-aid" measure no matter how many "SOS" vigilantes or huffing INS agents roaming the desert), it's about addressing economic inequality and preventing the financial need for people to flee their homes in the south to look for work in some factory, plantation field or other primo spot in the north. Yeah, people from Mexico really LOVE mowing lawns for de white folks, remember? The Mexicans have nothing better to do at home besides organize autonomous communities and fight the Mexican military to save their land from neoliberalism, eh? Better send 'em up north and put 'em to work for el blanco, eh?

Something about Mexican nationalism and the EZLN needs to be brought into the Minutemen debate also. We are getting a very one-sided opinion if only the "move 'em all north" voice of immigration uber alles is heard. How do the Zapatistas (EZLN) feel about immigration as a cultural and human loss to Mexico, do they agree that Mexicans should "follow the money north" and find their survival base in mowing lawns and working day labor in plantations so the blancos can have their iceberg lettuce at Taco Bell for 99 cents? Is there another option, is autonomy possible for Mexicans at home?

If this yo vs. yo dialogue is meant to be a distraction from other more pressing border migrant issues (economic inequality, water theft, pesticide exposure, maquiladora sweatshops, femicide, etc.) it is certainly working..

My guess is that the continuation of the Minutemen vs. the ANSWER socialists will continue unresolved until enough people catch on to their game. The same heirarchy ANSWER uses in their "anti-war" rallies can be found in these "anti-Minutemen" dialogues that serve to widen the gulf between people based on language, culture and ethnicity..

Congrats to both sides for continuing to make each other and yourselves look like assholes (if the shoe fits..). The longer people continue this petty shit, the longer GW Bush, Vincentes Fox and the real tyrants of neoliberalism will remain in power unchallenged. Keep up the good work!!

This "Minuteman" charade is becoming really tiresome, people need to look at the bigger picture of capitalism, psuedo-socialism (ANSWER) and neo-liberalism as the driving forces behind economic inequality, classism and racism. As a wannabe green anarchist the thought of people working in monoculture fields all day breathing pesticides is repulsive, regardless of their "legal" status. The "unions" (UFW, PRI, PPP, etc.) seek to bolster their ranks by getting more workers from the south. This strengthens the union muscle but weakens the lungs of the workers who continue to breath pesticides. Remember, monoculture plantations are dependant on pesticides/herbicides, a zero tolerance for pesticide exposure is seen as unrealistic by the UFW. What people are demanding is true autonomy (see Tlalnepantla) within Mexico, not economic hardship as a coercion to leave their homes and slave away in some norteno monoculture plantation with democrat socialist union overseers who always have the ANSWER..

Tlalnepantla declares autonomy;
http://www.uusc.org/news/alert020504_2.html

other ideas about immigration and ecology;

http://www.ciepac.org/

http://www.greenanarchy.org/

BTW i'm used to being called "racist" and "white trash" by leftist socialists for bringing some honesty and overlooked issues into these debates, so keep it up, eh?

luna moth

System? We don't need your stinkin' system!!

A BIG thanks to IndyMedia from SOS.

As you know, the SOS goal is to shut down the Laguna Beach Slave Labor Site for the day and we are not sure we could have done it with you! All those masked men on your side, looking like they ready for a car jacking or to knock or to knock off a liquor store scared off the Laguna Beach Neocons and meant that only two slaves were exploited that day!

Shame on racist Neocons, for exploiting the desperate migrants who have to work for less than minimum wage with no benefits, so Neocons can drive their gas guzzling SUVs and Jaguars around Laguna Beach.

Shame on them for watching and feeling their White Power as the migrants clamor around their $80,000 cars, each begging for some meager under the table income for performing tasks they distain as beneath them.

Shame on them for handing out sandwiches from the trunks of their cars, tossing them as if feeding dogs, bemused by their gratitude, relieving their quilt for laying off employees last week to increase their stock price and personal wealth.

I didn't see any whites, Asians or Blacks, in the Day Labor Center in Laguna Beach, although I did bet one of the college kids, $150 he could not get a job there.

You seem to gage a victory by the numbers of participants on either side of the street. We at SOS, gage a victory by the accomplishment of a set of goals. The fact that we at SOS were able to accomplish a shutdown of the Day labor Center, with fewer people than you had, only proves the efficiency of our process. But not only did we shutdown the Day labor Center, but we dragged your sorry asses, out to the site, and stole your time. Time which you could have spent on other pursuits.

Gee, do ya think everyone should schedule their plans on your calendar? Since when is that? I must have missed the email or I didn't make it to the meeting. BTW -- Who wrote that policy anyway? They are not in my chain of command.

Yup, it sure seems as if you attract many different groups, which can only dilute your strength and blur your focus, on the objective.

So far your side has scored more arrests, than the SOS side. Why is that?

I noticed after an across the road debate, that about 10 anti-SOS protesters, dropped their signs, in the dirt, and walked off. This group contained the young lady, who kept yelling "Fu*k Yo*", which I assumed was a proposition, and which I politely turned down, because she was too young for me. Another member of the walkoff group was the white guy, who couldn't get a job at the Day Labor Hiring Center, in a $150 bet.

One anti-SOS protester, was seen desecrating an American flag, and doing obscene and insulting actions with the cherished emblem of our great nation. Two men, appeared from nowhere, and confronted him. It seemed as his penance they made him hold a Jim Gilchrist for Congress sign, for a while, while standing on the Anti-SOS side of the road. He later tore up the sign.

Human Rights? You are not looking out for anyone's human rights. You are allowing the Day laborers ti hve thair human rights violated, and allowing them to victimize others.

It seems even a key SOSer like Old Preach can't keep the neo-Nazis away. So who's bringing them in?

And when is SOS going to take the cause to Joe's turf in Ventura County? Surely Joe can find some migrants to pick on closer to home. Or doesn't Joe want to be too "out" on his home turf? What would his neighbors think if they knew he was protected by National Alliance?

Maybe the repeated SOS concern on this thread for migrant "exploitation" means that SOS is joining the living wage campaign. With their new awareness of human rights, I guess they've changed their position that migrants should return to no jobs in Mexico--the jobs taken away by their government's support (note their flag-waving) of NAFTA and now CAFTA (expect more economic refugess from Central America). Free corporate trade necessitates that labor free itself.

Another theme I'm reading here is that keeping people from working was a goal. The contradiction with the position above is too obvious to merit comment. But let's check out the alternative SOS is suggesting for us. Say we don't take up the day laborers' request for help. SOS takes the Labor Center side of the street. No employers, zip. Instead, on Saturday, according to the Center manager, a dozen people were hired. That's a dozen more than SOS, unopposed, would have allowed.

But let's look at SOS's after-the-fact goals, posted by Joe when he got home from the rally. And allow me a few comments.

Joe's Public Goals:
1. Raise public awareness about the taxpayer funded illegal alien hiring center.

Or raise residents' awareness of the convenience of the Day Labor Center, the service it provides to those seeking work, and the quality of life the day laborers and their Center bring to Laguna Beach.

2. Discourage employers of illegal aliens from hiring.

Or raise employers' awareness of a convenient source of flexible and capable workers.

So neither of these goals hold up under even cursory examination.

Let's get down to the real goals of SOS, its "New Paradigm" of transfering pain: making life as comfortable as possible for SOS ideologues, at the expense of anybody they perceive as the enemy, including Laguna Beach police, taxpayers, and city government. Here is that "principle" in action:

3. Require Laguna Beach to expend resources on police personnel.

Comment: This will certainly endear you to the city council.

4. Increase traffic congestion/frustrate residents/compel them to demand the city shut down the center

Comment: And this will bring out the community to support you.

5. Demonstrate to Laguna Beach PD that we wont be deterred by shoddy police enforcement and that in fact, will only encourage us to return to their community.

Comment: And statements like this (along with the inevitable neo-nazis) will surely make you friends with the LBPD.

btw Don, I'm a little unnerved that you're willing to confirm nearly everything in my report except the numbers. I had to go back and re-read it. That you're so conscious and open about what's been going down on your end is . . . refreshing, I guess, but it makes you a much nastier dude. Do all the SOSers understand as much as you do about what's really going on inside SOS?

Tell us leslie,
What is going on inside SOS? but tell us only the things that can be verified someway. A confidential source will not be sufficient either. We want to see the smoking gun, or the bloody glove.

must be those frat boy good looks.

Discourage employers of illegal aliens from hiring.


It worked. only 2 were hired Saturday

You People Are So Stupid : You have not figured out why you are going to loose this fight . Just rember..... The Vigilantes Are Coming.... so have your green cards ready...or pack your bags and head to the nearest place you can get a free ride back....Adios WETBACKS

Leslie, First, let me ask you how my being candid makes me a 'much nastier dude'? I am wondering why my children do not think of me in this way now! Maybe I am somehow! Really, sometimes I am a bit thick, and do not see the obvious. Plz explain. Well, I have no problem letting you in on a few things. It makes it interesting, and I usually have little to hide. Oh yeah, except how those on your side of the issue might just kill me. Sad that it comes down to this kind of thing. Again, we would not return the favor, something you might want to consider the next time you walk among them. I am sure you personally are not like that. While I am blabbing away, let me point out a more things to you that may be of interest to you. We are just NOT interested in what the city council thinks, or the LBPD, or the elitist residents of Lagoona think of us. We want them to hate us really, or hate our presence. You must understand the psychology of all that are involved, and of the issue on the whole. We are doing what will get the job done, period. The city council wants the center there, so how would being nice and making friends with them get it shut down exactly ? Right, it would not. We made the PD so angry the first time, they litterally where a different people this time around. We were almost royalty this time around. Residents, making them angry is inevitable. We are threatening their supply of slave labor, and they are having a hissie. Make a BMW 745i slow to a crawl, and that is all it take. Your side of all peoples should understand this, and thank us for it. I thought you all hated classist elitists ??? Make them mad and inconvenience them, and the center falls that much quicker. The residents themselves will throw a hissie directed at the council...wah wah wah, close that place, wah wah wah, its making us upset to slow down and blah blah blah. The laborers at the center ARE being exploited, and need to be integrated, or go back to Mexico/Central America. Living in the shadows like that spells one thing - go nowhere. Cruel. Our main stance is that of the law. Ignore it or no. Say it is unfair and it needs to be smashed. That is up to you, but they are still on the books. They are foreign nationals that are here illegally, and need to go. Forget circumventing the laws for your idealologies. That is anarchy, and anrachy kills. Sorry, I forgot the rest of your points, and am to lazy to open another window. This indymedia format is lame. Like I said before...GET A MESSAGE BOARD! Its free for crying out loud. Hey, is this you ? Cute. Not to be a flirt or anything.

looking at the big picture and the waste of time and energy this squabbling really is, while the real source of the problem is ignored

both sides are burning gas and throwing away money to add more pollution and toxins for a feel good cathartic shouting match then burning more gas to return home while never even dealing with the cause of the problem - never threatening lifestyles or living standards which involve exploitation of the very people at the center of this issue that support the lifestyles and standards through close to slave labor -

mowing lawns, picking lettice

if the combatants were even half serious they would arrive on bicycles for example..

the pesticides that sicken and kill these workers also make it into your and my food to give us cancer just as the car exhaust from driving there & back does

so the real enemy are the companies that produce these chemicals and gasoline as they are hurting EVERYBODY for profit

that's who we should be going after - not eachother

but doing so is a long non-cathartic and lifestyle threatening undertaking

so let's just drive somewhere to scream then return home to our comfortible lives while we get sick and they die

I hate to break it to you but SOS is not yet "smashed" nor are the Minutemen. Ramirez was a punk out of his league, and while it's fine that he tucked tail and ran, it hardly indicates that this battle is over.

Let's get clear - this is a struggle against developments toward fascism in the US.

The US economy is in deep trouble. If oil prices continue to spiral out of control, and they will, the point will be reached when the whole game collapses.

If and when there is a serious downturn in the economy , migrants will become the #1 target of the system - we're talking about mass roundups and deportations of millions, perhaps utilizing the National Guard or the Army, mass detention centers of the kind where Japanese Americans were incarcerated, and massive turmoil in Mexico and elsewhere to the South, even as millions more try to flee the economic chaos in their own countries spurred by credit shocks and panics here.

In other words millions may be pressing to get in even as millions are being rounded up and deported - or worse. (This kind of thing could also develop around what is called "sudden climate change" as the Pentagon has noted
see http://www.fortune.com/fortune/print/0,15935,582584,00.html

This is a _political_ struggle over whether the US will become an overtly fascistic state, and to prevent genocidal potential actions on the part of the US government.

The Minutemen and SOS types are an ideological vanguard for fascism, and that it is not enough to "smash" them in demonstrations or to shut down the migrant hunters at the border.

What we have to do is create public opinion against fascism and against the racist scapegoating that is an inherent part of fascism, and do it in such a way as to ensure that public opinion is so polarized that such developments _cannot_ occur, because the price the white ruling class would pay would be seen as too high.

SOS, the Minutemn, and Co. have all the resources of white nationalism and racism that are structured into the very fabric of the white imperialist colonial settler state called the US.

This battle is hardly over.

>>Leslie, First, let me ask you how my being candid makes me a 'much nastier dude'?

It's that you're conscious of what you're doing that makes you repugnant. Consciousness implies the consciousness to stop what you're doing, and that you don't stop makes you even more distasteful. That's why I asked if the run-of-the-mill SOSers are on to your inner circle's agenda. Do they know that SOS goals are to piss off the Laguna Beach community, ensure their own comfort at the expense of others' livelihoods, and front for neo-Nazis?

On the one hand, the membership is told Stormfront and the National Alliance will be kept at bay (which in itself implies communication). On the other, the neo-Nazis keep showing up like clockwork. The connection between SOS and the neo-Nazis is undeniable. So what do you tell your members? Or has the inner circle decided that those who won't be photographed with swastikas might as well go away?

And don't tell me SOS isn't fronting. It's an open discussion at Stormfornt, and you, for one, are in regular contact with Baldy.

Your argument du jour is that you're willing to inconvenience the elitists, the bourgeoisie in socialist terms, the capitalists to others, by depriving people of their livelihood. Yeah, your little band of middle-class minutemen may move up a notch or two with tactics like that, but don't delude yourself that the ruling class will ever let you in. And at what cost?

That's what unalienably divides you and me. So you can chill on the flattery. I have a small bell in my psyche -- my "good girl" alarm. Its cousins are "nice girl" and "little lady." The long version is something like, "Be a good girl, and let the [white] men take care of it." For centuries, white women have been held in thrall by white men, who've traded off a bit of their white patriarchal privilege for obedient and compliant women who will enforce white patriarchy. And the men take back the privilege any time we dare step out of line.

Cleverer men than you have offered to let me back into the white patriarchal clan if only I'll "stop hanging out with those people." I've made my decision: none of my friends and allies are white patriarchs or their adherents. The "Hey little lady" John Wayne posturing doesn't work on me. I've seen it on your lists, over and over again. Save it for the SOS women who suck it up. And if Dotty stands on the front lines, I'll treat her like she's on the front line.

>>I am wondering why my children do not think of me in this way now!

Of course, the question is how long is "now."

The Machsimo Culture she loves leaves Latino women, under educated with too many babies.

Beating your is not even a crime in Mexico.

I was of course adding the comment about your looks to bait you a bit into telling me if that was really you. We needed that for the usual "gallery of the goons" area caption. Thanks! As if I would post such a thing seriously in public as a married man! I know if is easy to assume all that you have about me from what little has been on here. But the picture you paint is not me...not one little bit. Ask my wife! You can now that this little freak is getting her name and plastering it on here. Good folks you stand with. Also, none of us care about skin color. We do not want you to come back to 'whitey'. You are dead wrong about us fronting. We do not want them there, period. We also do not care about what your side thinks, or published for that matter. The nazi thing is past used up, and you all better find some substantive things pretty soon, or retire.

I started a dialouge with you in part becuzz I felt that you might be resonable. However, the world might be just a little to black and white to you still. For instance, for me to be human with folks, even tho I vehemently disagree with their view, is something that still escapes you it seems, as it does so many on the goon side. Funny, I speak to your side all the time ! They are safe coming over and speaking to us, and I enjoy it when one of them actually has a thoughtful discussion. If one of us comes over to your side of the street....forget it! Of course, this does not mean all, but lets face it; the majority on your side of the street would do nothing by shout us down, and possibly even harm us. However, his does not seem to disturb you in the slightest! I am not saying you should change your stance, but at least have the common decency to admit this, and stop the double standards and hypocrisy. You are too smart for this. No flattery, just my usual talking. I am this way with everyone.

>Beating your is not even a crime in Mexico.<

Domestic Violence is a crime in Mexico.

Your assertions are racists stereotyping.

The US has a critically high amount of domestic violence incidents. The US poor suffer a greater percentage of domestic violence cases. 65% of the poor in the US are white.

Here is a link to domestic violence laws by countries: http://tinyurl.com/ck7kj

It's great seeing so many good people turn out to oppose racist evil -- and on a busy day where a great many people around the world turned out to oppose the Bush racist fascism.

Good job, everyone. Toi judge by the comments by white supremists and other scumbags, the anti-hate rally was another success.

I read the following comment:

> if the combatants were even half serious
> they would arrive on bicycles for example..

And had to laugh. }:-} I always arrive on my bicycle, even in the heat of August.

But Hex, when racism shows its face, there _must_ be a response by the community to stand in opposition to racism. To step aside and allow the SOSMM and National Vanguard and whatever else free reign to hold Klan rallies or whatever they call them this time around, that _certainly_ doesn't stop the hate.

It's not a waste of effort, time, or gasoline to come out to oppose racism -- or to oppose this fascist regime's war crime atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan. If nobody opposed this fascist regime, the Christofascists would have invaded Iran and Lybia by now. It's only the fact that we've been taking to the streets in strong opposition -- burning gaslone, riding our bicycles, targeting recruitment centers -- that has kept these racist fascists from invading Iran and Lybia, among others.

No. Good people must stand and oppose these types. Obviously there's not a hope in Hell of ever changing the mind of such people. They were raised the way they are and they sopped it up with their mother's milk. But that's never been the goal of good people who stand up to such scum. It's the fact of being seen opposing them that lets them know they don't get a free pass. It also shows others who overwhelmingly oppose these SOSMM / National Vanguard / Skinhead / Aryan Nations / Stormfront et al. people that their own distates for racists is mirrored in their community by others.

So no. It's not a waste of time. And no, taking a gasoline powered vehicle or a bicycle is irrelevent.

My opinions only, of course, and solely my own opinions.

Juan Santos, I stiil cannot fathom how you connect the Minutemen/SOS with fascism.

The MMP is all about a form of national defense, as required by the US Constitutiton, of the people in the nation. SOS is about deporting the illegals, and preventing the fall of the state to unregulated- immigration.

Fascism, is a form of government or political party.

You say the "Nazi thing" is "past used up." Is that why Baldy is repeating your orders about last Saturday's event over at Stormfront? (see my link above) Is that why neo-Nazis have been with SOS at every Laguna Beach and Baldwin Park event?

You say we're the violent ones, while Baldy gets arrested with a knife at LB1, the Swastikas come out at LB2, and your thugs show up in your wake at LB3. Maybe the SOS crew are couch potatoes, but you have one hell of an enforcement team.

But you'd like me to be more "reasonable," more civilized I suppose you mean--you want to dialogue. That's difficult when you evade all the issues I pose about Joe's real agenda, what rank and file SOSers are told is going on, the undeniable ongoing connection to neo-Nazis.

I've addressed the issues you've raised pretty consistently and with some depth. It would be "civilized" of you to do the same, and stop minimizing and diverting from the subjects at hand.

And a note to "mexicana" (who, I'm sure, isn't): The first article of the Mexican Constitution asserts the equality of men and women. The United States has never conceded that fundamental principle. Domestic violence legislative position in Mexico is national and more comprehensive than California's, even with VAWA. Fact-checking isn't rocket science.

just becasue something is the law does not mean that is way life is.

What is the average education level for women in the Mexicali Valley? Number of women abused? The police laugh if you report your husband for abuse. Girls are sold into marriage at age 11 and have 7 children before they are 20

> not a waste of effort, time, or gasoline to come out to oppose racism


waste of time isn't what I meant - it's not that people travel or how they travel (obviously not everyone can ride a bike like you & I do) its what they do when they get there - just like on here lately - shouting matches and childish taunting isn't constructive, screaming at eachother with or without megaphones - cursing, yelling, flipping birds, etc...

the context I was refering was traveling to the companies that make the pesticides and protesting there - together

as long as people are screaming and at eachother's throats we fail to see and move against our common enemy - who exploit all of us by poisoning us for profit..

those who can should avoid burning gasoline (like you & I do - I use a bike for transportation to my job and sometimes other places like the store, etc.. even when I don't I share a small car with a friend and we shop together in one trip to save gas) compare that to a single person driving a SUV everywhere with the A/C on which is how many of the protesters drive...

A big improvement would be car pooling and resisting the tempation to act like a jackass once there. Screaming - shouting down the other side does nothing except make the person doing it feel good, combined with gas guzzling it's just not a very positive activity compared to what a person could do if they were more concerned with the worst victims - the people we supposedly are doing it for..


> would have invaded Iran and Lybia by now. It's only the fact that we've been taking to the streets in strong opposition -- burning gaslone, riding our bicycles, targeting recruitment centers -- that has kept these racist fascists from invading Iran and Lybia, among others.


Iran has nukes supplied by Russia according to my information, plus Russia and China have recently made it clear they will react badly if we attempt to invade Iran (or Syria if I recall correctly)

The invasion of countries rests with powers and factors beyond mere popular protest especially when the people are a minority - look at Iraq

25 million people protested against invading Iraq and *it happened anyway*


I have serious doubts anything we, the progressive movement as a whole or even the mass population of this country thinks or says has any effect at all about such issues - from the posts on here to street protests to popular vote

The only thing that would make a difference is STOP PAYING TAXES

That's sure to have an effect - vote with your wallet.




and the comments directed at Leslie about domestic violence are obviously troll bait - the troll thinks he can get a rise out of her. while I disagree with her about the true statistics of women v men in sexual assault and the value of porn, I wholeheartly support defending women from assault or battery from men (I'm not sure if that seems sexist but men are physically stronger than women so if a man attacks a woman the way I was raised I automaticly come to her aid and am inhibited from ever assaulting a woman - if two women are fighting I would stay out of it)

The only problem with your tax protest is that the governments chokehold on the economy is more reliant on the gas tax and its' related cousins than taxes that we can easily stop paying. Income taxes we have some measure of control, but telecommunications taxes and fees; banking taxes and fees import duties; etc that are just collected by others but still go directly to the big government monster. notice that we stopped hearing about all the IRS agents abuses and collection tactics that seemed like gestapo rather than bureaucrats? seems they found a better way to keep a steady supply of income flowing:
open the borders and let more paying customers in. More drivers spending on taxable gallons of fuel; more cell phone users paying taxes on thier bills each month; so many exise taxes, so many potential payers.
On a related note:
How far would walmart have made it without the millions of people who are here in the area illegaly?
If they are allowed to import thier customers, we have zero input on their future actions. No boycott would ever work if they can just bring in zillions more "strike breakers" from whatever country or area they choose.
the government has caught on to this enterprise as well now.
Big government = big business = immigration = the drowning of the American voices

your background and affiliation

(not that I didn't know it anyway - not that I *haven't been watching you*)

You see it as us v them and are blind to the main point - that people on both sides (of the border in this case) need to work together

I see the tax portfolio you just enumerated completely differently - as tax upon tax

matter of fact recently I attempted to figure out the total tax burden by adding all those taxes together and am actually pissed off about all the other taxes you mentioned (besides income & sales) on a daily basis..

I think the total tax burden when all those taxes are considered is shockingly high !

I still have that as an unanswered question that I'm actively looking into (since I keep in mind I think about ways to accurately figure it out as an ongoing question)

Once I figure out the answer it will help in finding ways to eliminate these tax "leaks"

A few solutions are already at hand like shared telephone and internet, shared electricity, natural gas, water and property tax, shared use of car.

We divide these taxes among several people already...

(one utility meter with 8 to 12 people using it so the tax is divided by that number)


When I suggested stop paying taxes I didn't specify - just any/all taxes in general in whatever ways you can (I avoid much tax by riding a bike for example)

Well, look Border Scavenger;

The common thread between SOS and the MinuteKlan is WHITE NATIONALISM.

You must think people here are complete fools to imagine that we don't know that the Minutemen and SOS lines on migrants are full of the same fascistic, vile, genocidal paranoia and propaganda - down to the terminology used - as found on Nazi sites like Stormfront, the National Alliance site, etc.

What you are all about is scapegoating Mexicans and migrants JUST LIKE HITLER SCAPEGOATED THE JEWS.

The whole stinking scenario is being played out in miniature - the terms like "cesspool", "breeders," the talk about "inferior cultures," the paranoia about the "danger" that Jews - I mean Mexicans - present to the White Nation and it's patriarchal capitalist overlords, the phony populism and appeals to "patriotism," the calls for mass roundups using the military and National Guard - the recent attempted murders of migrants by the Jim Chase crew in Campo - right down the line.

For god's sake, the arch - fascist George W Bush isn't far enough to the right for you stormtrooping assholes.

I've been face to face with you gun - toting pigs in Campo - I KNOW what you are.

And I know what Little Joey Turner is - a little wannabe Hitler with fantasies about his "natural leadership" and a great "destiny."

Well the only thing Joey is fit to lead is the SAME OLD SHEEP. That's all he can attract - losers and miscreants who rate ZERO on the scales of charisma and social intelligence.

YOU ARE NOTHING BUT Nazis scum.

> Jews - I mean Mexicans


hahaha yeah

they think they're clever but I concentrate on exactly the same thing - the values, viewpoints, outlooks, language, rhetoric - what they fear, what they consider threatening or a problem, what classes of people they blame, and what they ignore, are blind to, what they value in thier own lives, (just like Tim's post above - "bank account" being the most obvious)


who links to them, keyword searchs on those web sites, spelling errors crossed to handles, crossed to the other particulars above...

mostly the same people posting under different handles on different websites from the mild (SOS/MM) to the extreme (stormfront/aryan nations)

Well hex,

We've been at odds on the immigrant issue in the past, and I've identified myself plainly before. Not trying to be sneaky here at all.
Nor am I trying to make one race out to be villians. If you are watching me as you mentioned, you'd see that from my posts. They've posted my name and address, phone number here on the site. I gotta wonder just from my name alone why anyone would think I'd try to further a race based agenda. But rather than engage in redundant dialogue, I'll just say that we differ if that's ok.

your style gives you away - I stick to one handle and never ever post as any other so when a person posts for awhile as one handle then suddenly drops it and starts using a different handle it suggests to me he wishes to get a "fresh start as a new person" and hide away the old debates his real name is associated with - to me that's hiding, hiding your past on here..

recalling past debates you were pretty nasty with me - assuming I didn't know it's you, do you think I would react the same now knowing that compared to a new person just entering the subjects being discussed ?

unlikely - except in my case I can tell it's you and have been replying knowing so all along - I was waiting for the right moment to reveal it..

I don't follow all the threads - I'm not even on this site or the internet at all sometimes, so while it's possible to have tracked the evolution of your new identity by doing so I haven't - I'm just unusually good at following writing styles and other markers with what time and threads I do see is all..

Assuming you don't use a proxy IMC staff can track you by IP - they can track me by HTTP headers too, but I rely only on my memory of mostly writing style on the limited amount of time and number of threads I do see - using mostly my brain not datamining tools..

I only invest automated tools and extra time when the subject merits it because I have too many other things to do here.

I did do some digging on the posts on SOS compared to more extreme web sites for example a while back, did a fair amount of digging on the trolls this IMC was plagued with - a few days worth - and it payed off - those trolls are gone except for the occassional Ned & Claira posts as BA & (now) tramp. The only goal with SOS is to show that they are mostly really nazi's playing moderates - that's been covered well enough..
If anyone that matters needs more evidence I have more to post but lately the denials have taken on a broken record quality that needs no further rebuttal

I believe you're right. The only way to stop the government from invading innocent countries and slaughtering non-white people who worship the "wrong" gods is to stop paying taxes -- but that only works if everybody stops. Or enough stop to make any kind of difference.

As a country, the United States is now totally fucked. The American Dream of Democracy under a Constitutional Republic is dead. EVEN FOR WHITE CITIZENS now, thanks to this fascist regime.

It used to be when police were bashing blacks, shooting them indiscriminately, disappearing them, and all the rest, that was accepted by the vast majority of the US populace since it was "a black problem." Fascism and the violent denial of civil and Constitutional rights were "a black problem."

Along comes this fascist Bush regime which has turned it into an American problem. We're all under the same brutal thumb, the only exception: rich white Republicans.

The US will never recover from this. Never.

There's so much injustice in the world -- then along comes these SOSMM/AN/NV/SF/Skinhead types to add more hate, more evil, more injustice, more Christian fascism, as if America didn't have enough to begin with.

My opinions, of course, and only mine.

And that brings up another issue:

> I've been face to face with you gun - toting
> pigs in Campo - I KNOW what you are.

These SOSMM et al. people demand and want people to actually believe that they're not neo-Nazis, not hate filled fascists who "only want the laws to be obeyed." Their public relations effort is utterly nullified by their actions, their words, and their rhetoric.

What we find is that violently assaulting peaceful anti-hate activists, illegally parading around with firearms like common Nazi thugs, spewing hatred like any common Klan member -- what we SEE, what we OBSERVE is diametrically opposed to what these people CLAIM.

So what's reasonable, intelligent, rational people to think? What kind of sick people assault peace activists out in the desert while waving guns at grand parents, children? Isn't that what NAZIS did? Isn't that what NAZIS do?

"We didn't ask them to come. We don't want them to come." That's what these people state when the Nazi flags come out. When the Confederate flags come out. And yet they assault people who love their fellow humankind in the desert, waving guns in the faces of people who calmly, rationally stand there and respond to their Nazi hate with love, even understanding, peacefully standing in opposition to what these SOSMM/AN/NV/SF/Skinhead people stand for.

And when anyone demands that their rhetoric doesn't match their actions, doesn't match the guns in these scumbag's hands, the scumbags yark off into Republinazi personal attacks, refusing to address the fact of their own violence, their own brandishing of firearms, their own fascism and race hate.

Now I'm certain that there are SOME of these people who actually believe they're not racists. SOME who actually believe they're "only against ILLEGAL immigration," not against anyone with brown skin. Of that I have no doubts.

But one doesn't join the KKK and then demand one isn't a racist. One doesn't join ANY group and then proclaim one's against the core precepts of the group.

I'm against open borders.

I'm against illegal immigration.

But I'm even MORE against racist hatred, bigotry, theocracy, fascism, Republicanism and the evil in that, superstition, occultism. Anyone who shares my views would never rationally join up with these people.

Fact is, there are legitimate anti-illegal immigration organizations out there, ones that aren't stuffed with clowns who drag out the Nazi flags, give stiff armed salutes to the cars that wave the middle finger at them, drag out the Confederate flags.

People who don't share the SOSMM / National Vanguard / Aryan Nations / Stormfront / Skinhead ideologies have alternatives. If they TRULY belioeve that hate isn't the answer, they have alternatives to join.

There's no excuse to retain membership in an organization one doesn't agree with. Anyone who does is admitting they agree with it; with its actions.

Honest people should flee the SOSMM et al.

My opinions only, of course, and speaking solely for myself.

Leslie,

I honestly do not see how I am evading your questions or assertions. Perhaps I am not adressing each and every one becuzz I am so bzy right now.

This is how it is regarding the WN's, Nazi's and such; as you know, this last time, they contacted us out of respect as to what to do. They already know this, as it is posted clearly on the web site that our position is that we want no help, or attending from them at our protests. Our attitude is go do your own, which they have been doing in Nevada and Washington state. Thats where this is headed, they will fade from piggy backing us, and do their own thing. So, we tell them this time again no thanks, and if you do disrespect us and come anyway, we will not stand there with you.

It is 'used up' becuzz we are obsessed with this. Your side is becuzz you perceive this as a weakness you can exploit, and then perhaps ruin us with. Face it, it is fading quick, and you better look for something else in a hurry, that is all I am saying. Baldy asks, I respond. I do recon on them, the same way I do recon here. This is a racist sep site just like theirs is. Am I evil for being here also ?

This is what I am Leslie, feel free to take it back to KPFK, Radiojustice, or where ever else you would like, I am a Christian minister of almost 20 years of experience who did not even know what stormfront was 6 months ago, or indymedia for that matter. I had a bzy life, and was not involved with activism like you all are. This is your life, it seems, like many here. After we make ground with all t his, I am back to my life...the real one. I am doing what I am doing becuzz I recongnize, although somehow you do not, that my very well being is threatened. Perhaps if YOU someday lose a child, or family member at the hands of an illegal alien, you then will feel differently. Until then, you hang with the Aztlan crowd, who will btw throw you out on your white behind the minute they came to power, if they ever did set up the mythical homeland as they would want. Read the fine print Leslie Radford, you are not welcome in Aztlan ! You are white...a gringo!

Only a few of you are worth the time there. You perhaps...i I am not totally sure yet. Maybe Hex. One or 2 others that I have seen. I just can not take the kind of time needed to answer every point here. Perhaps via email, I can spend much more time there, the format is much kinder.

I havce your last post copied. If you want me to answer it point by point, feel free to email me and let me know at the following address...

oldpreachin@yahoo.com

luna moth,

The opposition is not saying "immigration above all." It's saying that people have a right to seek work, and people have a right to move from place to place.

The primary group(s) engaged in this fight are concerned about human rights, not "rights only for Americans". They believe it's self evident that all people are created equal, to paraphrase our founding document.

They're also motivated by concerns of creeping fascism. Look at how many fascists support SOS. Don Silva said 30% at the last demo, and that's the conservative estimate.

The day laborers are not "slave labor." They are "wage slaves." Slaves are people who are compensated just enough to subsist, and these particular workers are compensated more than minimum wage.

To call them slaves might make us forget that there are a lot of real slaves in our area. These are the women working in massage parlors, for restaurants, as nannies and domestics, and in sweatshops. They owe money to gangsters who smuggled them in, and cannot move freely.

The journaleros are relatively free people. They are poor, but free.

You SOSers aren't, somehow, liberating "slaves". You are creating increasingly oppressive situations for free working people.

Fascism is concerned with identifying who is "in" and "out" of a society, so that the national resources can be enjoyed only by the "in" group. That's why the Nazis identified their enemies and killed them. The enemeies were non-Germans: Gypsies, Jews, gays (degenerates).

SOS and MMP are concerned with defining an out group and eliminating their presence via deportation, or threatening to shoot them for crossing over from "outside" to "inside".

Fascism is supportive of a strong state, and strong national identity to implement these goals. They also believe that capitalism and corporations need to be tamed to the will of the people, to partner with the state. That is the "socialist" aspect of national socialism.

SOS members have said they're opposed to corporations because they're "globalist" or otherwise not executing what SOSers believe is the proper role of a country's corporations: to increase the wealth of the people within that nation.

You forgot the sales tax. That tax is the most visible tax we experience.

The three biggies are income, sales, and property tax. The balance of these three affect us more than the use fees and other taxes. I think in any city or state, the balance between these three affect how government will behave.

Shifting away from property taxes and toward sales taxes in California has given retail business more influence in government. Government ultimately supports the people who fund them, and, for this reason, I think that direct income and property taxes are good, and sales taxes are bad.

I was referring to the taxes that were federally mandated and collected. But you are right, the sales tax is a most unrepresented parish. people from out of an area come in and support a repressive government by spending in that area, leaving the inhabitants somewhat disenfranchised by the overwhelming power of money.
That is exactly the case I was pointing out with having some many out of parish people buying gas here, and supporting this outlaw regime. We have no control over their income by staging a tax boycott, cause they will flood the area with new buyers.

And Hex,
I haven't published here on Indy under any other name but mine. the writing style you may be referring to could just indicate like minded people out there. And yes, I was abrupt at first. I hope I have corrected that lately

Sorry bewildered,

But we SOS'ers are always looking for some common dialogue among our counterparts. We want to make change. And I think many of the indy posters would agree, as would most SOS members, that people with your attitude are not really valuable to either side.
You can keep up that assinine name calling and racial argument baiting and all you'll end up with is a hostile environment everywhere you post. Don't you ever get tired of having the door slammed in your face?
If you consider my efforts a waste of time, then you are a waste of mind

Undocumented Mexicanos probably have fewer cars per capita than any other group of working-age people in Los Angeles. I see them on those cheap Magna bikes.

They aren't paying many gas taxes, but, they also aren't impacting the environment and roads so much.

(Bewilderd's racist comments are visible in the hidden area: http://la.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=136070#136372)

Yes, they are fewer in drivers in the more densely populated areas, but that doesn't hold true everywhere at all. And it is an immigrant tax, not just a mexican one. It's just that mexicans make up the lions and tigers share of immigration pie. They'd bring in customers from china too, say if the mexicans got brave and sealed the border from thier side. That would probably take the demon right out of mexican stigma in the process.
The thing that I am saying is, it only is helping support both big biz and big gov. And I believe it to be in a big way.

Don;

It's interesting watching you strike a "reasonable," even "conciliatory" tone.

Why, you're so "civilized." So superior.

After all you're a "minister." A "reverend." And who could question the good intentions of a "man of the cloth?"

Well, I could.

What do you think the story of the Good Samaritan means, Don? Is the lesson of the story to DEPORT the Good Samaritan ?

Who WOULD Jesus deport, Don?

Now, the figure you pretend to worship - and maybe your worship is "sincere" for all I know - said that as you do unto the least of these, my children, so you have done unto me.

If Jesus were a Mexican, Don, would you deport him?

Or how about a Salvadoran, active in the Church, who was forced to flee death squads sponsored by the US. Should they be deported, too?

Or Mayan Indians from Guatemala. They suffered a genocide a couple of decades ago that wiped out 250,000 of their people. It was initiated by Rios Montt, a close buddy of Falwell and what's his name from the 700 Club, the televangelist. Millions fled or were displaced. Should the Mayans be deported?

Is THAT what Jesus would do?

How about Nicaraguans who were involved in the Liberation Theology movement, and who fled the US sponsored death squad Contras. I bet Jesus would just as soon execute them, eh?

Oh, they're commies? Wasn't it Jesus who said to give up all you have, share it with the poor and to follow him? Isn't that _just_ how the early Christians lived?

Wasn't Jesus on the side of the poor, Don? Didn't he say a rich man had practically ZERO chance of redemption? Then why are you trying to defend your wealth against the poor?

Wasn't it Jesus who said blessed are the meek? Well, Joe Turner is anything but meek. Why are you following him instead of Jesus?

So, Don, I don't think Jesus would say that Mexico is a cesspool, or that a good day is a day without a Mexican, or that Mexican culture is "inferior," or any of the racist filth that is found on the SOS website.

So, Don, I just have one thing to say to you:

Get thee behind me, Satan.

-------------------------------------

(excerpt below from Marimba Ani's "Yurugu."

http://www.africawithin.com/ani/excerpt_chap6.htm

Hypocrisy as a Way of Life

Within the nature of European culture there exists a statement of value or of "moral" behavior that has no meaning for the members of that culture. I call this the "rhetorical ethic;" it is of great importance for the understanding of the dynamics of the culture. The concepts of traditional European anthropology are inadequate to explain the phenomenon to which I am referring here, as it has no counterpart in the types of cultures to which anthropologists have generally directed their attention in the past. But with the concept of asili, which facilitates an ideological approach to the study of culture, the rhetorical ethic becomes visible; even compelling. It fits the logic of the European asili, assisting the culture in the achievement and maintenance of power. Without this interpretation certain manifestations within the verbal iconography of the culture appear to be inconsistent with its underlying ideological thrust. And that simply would not make sense. Let us see how the mechanism of the rhetorical ethic works.

The related distinction used traditionally in anthropology is stated in terms of "ideal culture" and "actual behavior" and is said to be characteristic of all cultures, thereby helping to confuse the issue of the uniqueness and problematical nature of European culture. The conventional distinction is illustrated in the following manner by the authors of a recently published anthropology textbook.

For example, an idealized belief, long cherished in America, is that all doctors are selfless, friendly people who chose medicine as their profession because they felt themselves "called" to serve humanity, and who have little interest in either the money or the prestige of their position. Of course, many physicians do not measure up to this ideal. Nevertheless, the continued success of television programs that portray the average American M.D. as a paragon of virtue indicates how deeply rooted in our collective psyche the ideal of the noble physician is.

This is a common misconception that has led to a mistaken view and superficial understanding of the nature of European (Euro- American) society. To refer to the images offered above as "ideal" is a misuse or at least a misleading use of the term "ideal." The projection and success of the image of the committed, altruistic doctor do not indicate that it is a "deeply rooted" ideal in the American psyche.

It is rather an indication of the fact that this is how Americans want to appear to others, most often to non-European peoples-their "objects.'' In this case it is the way that the doctor wants to appear to his patients, or ''objects,'' because this appearance works to his advantage. On the other hand, an image that projects him as a potential exploiter can lead to the possibility of malpractice suits and to the institutionalization of socialized medicine-neither of which is lucrative for him.

An ''ideal'' should be understood to be some thing that functions normatively and something that is emulated; that which has meaning for those who share it. It is the European experience that encourages the confounding of meaning and commitment with mere verbal expression. (It was within the incipient European experience that "rhetoric" came to be regarded as art.) In African culture words have power. The European mind is a political one and for this reason constantly aware of the political effect of words and images as they are used for the purposes of manipulation. By "political" I mean to indicate an ego that consistently experiences people as others; as representatives of interests defined differently and, therefore, as conflicting with this "ego." The individual is concerned, therefore, with the way in which his verbal expression and the image he projects can influence the behavior of those to whom he relates, be they patients (would-be consumers), neocolonial subjects, an opposing candidate for office, or an African selfdeterminist/nationalist. This is what is "deeply rooted" in the American mind-the psychology of "public relations," "salesmanship," and political strategy. It is in the Euro-American vernacular that the word "image" is used so frequently. To be concerned with one's image as opposed to one's self is a European characteristic.

To be aware of the strategical advantage of appearing to be altruistic when one is operating out of self-interest does not mean that altruism is a meaningful "ideal" in terms of one's value-system. It is, instead, an outgrowth of the propaganda that the Europeans have fed "non-European" peoples since they first sought to conquer them. Because they exported ("sold") this altruistic image so successfully, they have had to project themselves as adhering to this "ideal"; similarly, the projection of themselves or their motives in this way has been essential to the successful imposition of this "ethic" on others.

The basic principle to be kept in mind in order to understand this dynamic of European culture is that the major contributing factor to the success of European nationalism has been its projection as disinterested internationalism,

The use of "ideal" in the passage quoted above is simply an inad- equate concept for the ethnological analysis of European culture. Hoebel, in an earlier textbook, offers his version, which is similarly inadequate: "Ideal Culture consists of a people's verbally expressed standards and behavior." The examples that these anthropologists offer from other cultures to explicate the distinction between "ideal" and "actual" in no way represent the phenomenon in Western culture under consideration.

Hoebel describes "normative postulates or values" as "deep- lying assumptions about whether things or acts are good and to be sought after, or bad and to be rejected." This is precisely what the "rhetorical ethic" is not. Hoebel's definition can be used to get at the converse of the phenomenon I wish to describe. A "rhetorical ethic" is not a "deep-lying assumption." It is a superficial verbal expression that is not intended for assimilation by the members of the culture that produced it. The "rhetorical ethic," a European phenomenon, has been neglected in conventional ethnological theory, which has consistently offered concepts devoid of political significance.

Anthropologists talk about the gap in all cultures between thought and deed, between ideas and actions. The gap to which I am referring, however, is between verbal expression and belief or commitment; between what people say and what they do. Nowhere other than in European culture do words mean so little as indices of belief. It is this characteristic that is of concern here and this characteristic for which the concepts of traditional anthropology are inadequate to explain.

As a cultural trait it has, however, been described by others, particularly those who have been made victims of European cunning. Below an indigenous American describes European behavior:

They would make slaves of us if they could; but as they cannot, they kill us. There is no faith to be placed in their words.

They will say to an Indian, "My friend; my brother!" They will take him by the hand and, at the same moment destroy him.... Remember that this day I warned you to beware of such friends as these. I know the Long-Knives. They are not to be trusted.

It is an inherent characteristic of the culture that it prepares members of the culture to be able to act like friends toward those they regard as enemies; to be able to convince others that they have come to help when they, in fact, have come to destroy the others and their culture. That some may "believe" that they are actually doing good only makes them more dangerous, for they have swallowed their own rhetoric-perhaps a convenient self-delusion. Hypocritical behavior is sanctioned and rewarded in European culture. The rhetorical ethic helps to sanction it. European culture cannot be understood in terms of the dynamics of other cultures alone. It is a culture that breeds hypocrisy-in which hypocrisy is a supportive theme a standard of behavior. Its hypocritical nature is linked to the Platonic abstraction, to objectification, to the compartmentalization of the person and the denial of the emotional self. Below Havelock characteristically understands the case:

Another thing noticeable about them [pre-Platonic" Greeks] in this period is their capacity for direct action and sincere action and for direct and sincere expression of motive and desire. They almost entirely lack those slight hypocrisies without which our civilization does not seem to work.

The distinction and definitions that can lead to a better under- standing of the Europeans and their culture can only come from a perspective that is not one of European chauvinism; for it is the method of European chauvinism or cultural nationalism to conceal European interest. As I use it, "value" is only meaningful value; it is that which motivates behavior and is the origin of human commitment. Value determines what is imitated and preserved, what is selected for and encouraged. "Avowed values" on the other hand, which are merely professed, which find expression only verbally, which are not indicative of behavior, belong to what I have called the "rhetorical ethic."

The European rhetorical ethic is precisely that-purely rhetorical- and, as such, has its own origins as a creation for export; i.e., for the political, intercultural activity of the European. It is designed to create an image that will prevent others from successfully anticipating European behavior, and its objective is to encourage nonstrategic (i.e., naive, rather than successful) political behavior on the part of others. This is the same as "nonpolitical" behavior.) It is designed to sell, to dupe, to promote European nationalistic objectives. It "packages" European cultural imperialism in a wrapping that makes it appear more attractive, less harmful. None of these features represents what can culturally be referred to as an "ideal" in any sense. The rhetorical ethic is, therefore, not dysfunctional in European culture.

It does not generate nor reflect conflict in European ideology or belief-system; but it is, rather, necessary to the maintenance and projection of the utamaroho and performs a vital function in sustaining European cultural nationalism in the pursuit of its international objectives.

The rhetorical ethic is made possible by the fact that hypocrisy as a mode of behavior is a valued theme in European life; the same hypocritical behavior that its presence sanctions. Again, "value" refers to that which is encouraged and approved in a culture. European culture is constructed in such a way that successful survival within it discourages honesty and directness and encourages dishonesty and deceit-the ability to appear to be something other than what one is; to hide one's "self," one's motives and intent.

People who are duped by others and relate to a projected image are considered fools or "country bumpkins." Hypocrisy in this way becomes not a negative personality trait, not immoral or abnormal behavior, but it is both expected and cultivated. It is considered to be a crucial ingredient of "sophistication," a European goal. European intracultural, political behavior is based on hypocrisy-as are business relations, the advertising media, and most other areas of public, and social interaction. It is merely a manifestation of this theme when Americans claim that politicians are basically honest. The claim itself is hypocritical, and the public expects it to be so. We all know that the objective of commercial advertising is to convince us to buy products so that manufacturers can make large profits, but the slogans attempt to persuade us that the product is beneficial to our well being, as though the producer has our welfare at heart.

This hypocrisy touches the lives of every member of the culture in their dealings with one another, and yet it originates in part in the nature of their intercultural relationships. It is a part of the mechanism of European expansionism, All of these factors must go into the understanding of the rhetorical ethic and not an overly simplistic distinction between "ideal" and "actual" culture; perhaps a relevant distinction with regard to other cultures that create and are created by very different "cultural personalities." Let us look more closely at this "ethic" and see how it has functioned historically.

They let you post here because you're a loser. You look like a fool...kissing the ass of people who would kill you if they caught you without a police cordon.

You can't reason with savages. They don't understand the concept.

> kissing the ass of people who would kill you

that's not true at all - I for one am very peaceful, I wouldn't kill anybody. And no one "let's" him post here - it's open publishing, anyone can post here (that's why I like it)

It's kinda interesting to see what other people you wouldn't normally talk to have to say - it opens the possibility of radically different people getting together and seeing eye to eye on issues that in the long run have more impact than the immediate concerns we all tend to be blinded by..

if you choose to characterize that as ass kissing that's fine. But the fear angle is baseless. I know fear can be a powerful motivator however your addressing people of a *peace movement* and some are extremely peaceful - the most I would ever do is fist fight - no weapons even, and not even try to really hurt anyone either (I get practice at this here where I live with drunk friends who pick fights and I end up restraining them - defusing situations.) In these scuffles I try to prevent anyone from getting injured. We had one guy "crazy Jackie" who had a large knife (he was known to stab people) He was attacking a drunk friend of mine, so I sneaked behind hin and grabbed the knife away from him - cutting my hand a bit in the process..

As I was holding it he came at me. I turned and walked away, took it across the street and set it down. When the police showed up I explained that to them.. I disarmed him and no one was hurt..

And he was crazy violent too..



Re: sales tax

hey John.. I consider sales tax the second most important tax after income (9.25 % here) I might not have posted it because it's a given..

As to Wonka - he comes as close to me as any character in any movie does. It's one of my favorite movies and I love the messages they relate about books and TV, pampered brats, etc.

so to insult the movie is to insult me.. Sorry about being sarcastic - I don't want to wear out my welcome or anything here.. When IMC was upgrading I checked out your blog and almost posted but I was afraid it would be imposing and wasn't sure what entry was current and if you would see it (besides the only thing I would have had to say was a question about the status of this site) and since it seemed a semi-private "programmers corner" type deal I thought it would be out of place and out of line to post there

I think luna moth is going in the right direction. I have a slightly different more "abrasive" take on the situation (reflects my personality) but agree with that position

so that makes 3 of us.

That article "hit the spot." Been dealing with corporate folks, and, well, it's like deja vu all over again.

I do not recognize a clegy/laity split. My ministry work was in the trenches, something most of you young goons know nothing of. You just enslave the Mexican Nationals that come here, and pretend you are righteous.

I care nothing for you hypocrite rant. As if you can speak for Chrisianity. Stow it, no one is buying it. You sound silly, thats all. Just as I would sound silly speaking of something I know nothing of.

" You can't reason with savages. They don't understand the concept "

In your case, I'll heed that advice, bewildered.

Moving on to less primitive posters:
Cutting and pasting large articles to post in order to bolster your argument seems a little plagauristic. Actually, it seems like cheating. But I guess when you run out of things in your own mind, it at least lends an air of credibility to your posts.
All that stuff about Jesus being deported is so much in the fantasy world. Cmon now. Jesus died.
How about confining your arguments to this century, or at least the last one

And lastly,
The police are there to protect the property and people of the town. I doubt they have much sympathy for anyone else, especially so troublemakers on either side of the issues. They are not thier to protect my side of the cordon. The cordon is there so the riot police can divide up the assembled masses by squad. " OK, Squad one beats the people on this side, squad two pepper sprays all those on that side" "whoever doesn't come back with blood and hair on their baton has to pick up all the yellow tape afterwards"
The point is, I would never count on thier protection in a protest situation. There ain't no "safe" side of the police cordon, if they have to put one out

Believe me, the Nazis were not there to escort us anywhere.

Um, Don...

"Silly" is not a theological argument or position, is it?

They don't teach ad hominem attacks in seminary, do they?

Well, "Oldpreach" won't bow before anyone but Joey Turner, I suppose.

But sure as the devil, the man lost his facade of "reasonable," civilized" superiority, didn't he?

Not that I have no sympathy for the Devil, but no so as to be taken in by his tricks.

I mean how tortured are we when we commit evil. The torment is worse, of course, when we become evil, when it becomes our principle mode of relating and existence.

We could say, along with Christian psychologist M. Scott Peck, that evil is the use of power to scapegoat others in order to avoid one's own spiritual growth - that's how he put it in "The Road Less Travelled."

And that is exactly what SOS and it's co-Satanists (so to speak) in groups like the Minutemen are all about. It's what Don is all about. Not about Jesus or any of that.

For those who care to think more on this, see the link and excerpt below:

http://www.yuricareport.com/RevisitedBks/How%20to%20Detect%20Evil.htm

Peck draws a profile of the evil: they have no regard for the truth; they lie and live in a world of lies. They are masters of disguise and cloak themselves with masks of respectability, goodness and often piety. (Peck tells us that religiosity is a common and effective disguise.) But it is the appearance of propriety and respectability that is the important factor. Peck defines evil as: “The exercise of political power—that is, the imposition of one’s will upon others by overt or covert coercion…” Or in other words: it is the use “of political power to destroy others,” for the purpose of defending or preserving the integrity of one’s sick self (or group).

There is today in America a disease, a sickness of hatred. It’s very existence is a universal form of group narcissism. Peck calls it, “enemy creation,” or “hatred of the ‘out-group.’” If a group does not have an enemy, “it will most likely create one in short order.” Peck wrote, “The groups become cliques. Those who do not belong to the group are despised as being inferior or evil or both.”

---------------

Oh gee, I am so rebuked now!
by Don Silva Thursday, Sep. 29, 2005 at 3:30 PM

I do not recognize a clegy/laity split. My ministry work was in the trenches, something most of you young goons know nothing of. You just enslave the Mexican Nationals that come here, and pretend you are righteous.

I care nothing for you hypocrite rant. As if you can speak for Chrisianity. Stow it, no one is buying it. You sound silly, thats all. Just as I would sound silly speaking of something I know nothing of.

> This is how it is regarding the WN's, Nazi's and
> such; as you know, this last time, they contacted us
> out of respect as to what to do. They already know
> this, as it is posted clearly on the web site that our
> position is that we want no help,

Apparently the SOSMM et al. think normal people are idiots. One can bring up the National Navguard / Stormfront web sites and one can see the cross polination to the point where it becomes an absurdity to suggest that there's any differenciation. Indeed, when the Nazi flags and the Confederate flags come out, one gets another eye full of what it is these people stand for.

All of the public relations denials and web pages plastered all over the place doesn't detract from the fact of what our eyes see and what we read from SOSMM et al. postings which contradict their PR claims.

If SOSMM et al. followers were honestly against their own Nazi et al. supporters, defenders, members, participants, applauders or whatever you want to call them, such SOSMM followers would walk away and join a legitimate anti-immigration group, one that doesn't suffer from the public relations exposures they try to deny.

Now Don S. _may_ be honest in his desire to divest SOSMM from the neo-Nazis and such, but what Don S. _hasn't_ said is why he sticks with SOSMM. What he hasn't said is why SOSMM followers who honestly don't want such people among them don't do something about it -- or denounce the postings of their own followers when they state it's okay to have Nazis as long as they don't bring out their flags.

Actions. They speak louder than claims.

Don, if you're honest, if you're serious that the SOSMM doesn't want anything to do with your own membership's overwhelming racism, why don't you and your fellow honest anti-immigration activists walk away and either join a legitimate group or start one of your own?

It's time to face it: SOSMM won't recover from the massive public exposures. If you want to divest yourselves of the racism, you have to walk away.

Sweet Jesus, Don, at least _try_ to be reasonable.

My opinions only, and solely my opinions.

Well said, Aguila. Who WOULD Jesus deport?

Not only is the Christian mythologies utterly opposed to everything these SOSMM / Stormfront / Aryan Nations / National Vanguard / Skinhead people support and defend, there's another issue that trumps even the Christian Bible: The morality of the thing.

Among the Christian myths there's the two men that Lot saved from the rape gangs, strangers that he saved by offering his own daughters to the rape gang. It's a mixed message, to be sure, but defending _strangers_ is a Christian act, isn't it? A Christian act of love.

There's also the admonishments, "What you do to the least of these, you do also unto me." Jesus warns that if you don't defend the least of his mortals, you "know me not" meaning you're not Christians.

I'm not surprised that Don S. claims he's a Christian. He seems to have forgotten to read his own Bible.

Pravda wrote: "just becasue something is the law does not mean that is way life is.

What is the average education level for women in the Mexicali Valley? Number of women abused? The police laugh if you report your husband for abuse. Girls are sold into marriage at age 11 and have 7 children before they are 20"

You don't know squat do you.

Your assertions here are so inaccurate, but I realize that you have to prove that there are people inferior to you and those that look like you, even if you have to invent lies.

I won't offer contrary information and statistics to counter your lies, since I believe you are incapable of accepting reality.

Don can't decide if I'm worth his time. OK, I'll be the first. Don's latest comments on this thread are not worth more of my time than this brief rejoinder will take.

Don says there's no affiliation between SOS and formal neo-Nazi groups, while he admits Neo-Nazis are calling him for marching orders.

Don says he's not trying to bring me back into the white clan, but he generously alerts me that I'll have no where to turn if the Mexicans win back the Southwest.

Don says the Nazi-SOS connection is "used up" because SOSers "are obsessed with this." Really, he did. Freudian typos are such fun.

Don says he's worried about the exploitation of migrants by white employers, but mostly he's worried about threats to his "very well being."

Don reminds us that the SOS website says they don't want neo-Nazis, but the neo-Nazis keep showing up. Don, if you told Baldy not to come to Laguna Beach, who told his "brothers" to be there? Or were those rogue Nazis, incapable of following orders, kind of like the "rogue" minutemen James Chase admitted shot two migrants in July? And here I thought discipline and obedience were Nazi "virtues."

Don says he too "bzy" to answer my questions, but he can dash out 500 words to tell me that. And Don can make the time to answer me if I write him privately, so he can try to pump me full of disinformation. Or maybe bring me back into the clan.

And for what it's worth (which isn't much to me), Don apparently undertakes his Reseda ministry from the driver's seat of a cab, according to Matt McClain of the Ventura County Star. Ever since he left Faith Child, I guess.

NO ONE showed up to protest at Irvive. You guys are scared to go to Orange County unless you are Laguna Beach. TOO funny

no - I'm 1,000 miles away

Is it just my imagination or has there been a great deal of censorship of these posts lately?

(This letter to the Star won't get printed, so it's here. Maybe it'll get associated to the original article by some search engine.)

The story "Activist feels a calling to oppose illegal immigration" of July 8th contained some incendiary accusations that completely mischaracertized the opposition to SOS. The editorial staff at the Star need to get their act together. The following incorrectly characterizes the counter-protesters:

"Radicals on both sides showed up. White supremacist groups sided with Turner, and one man chanted pro-Osama bin Laden chants on the other."

I was at the demonstration. There was exactly one nut who was saying pro-Osama stuff. People thought he was a plant from the oppostion. He was 1/600th of the population there. At later demonstrations, this guy was not present.

The opposition' main chant was "racists go home." The opposition was composed of various individuals and groups, and some of them were radicals. The vast majority of people present to oppose the SOS were unaffiliated individuals who showed up because they got an email or saw a flyer, and saw the SOS website.

At the first Baldwin Park demonstration, the white supremacists were clandestine. Neo-Nazis didn't become more open about their participation until later, after realizing they were a large minority of the demonstrations. This is the REAL story of the SOS -- that the message is being overwhelmed by the increasing presence of armed neo-nazis in the demonstrations.

This sick dynamic between the racist groups and SOS is being ignored by the media. Clearly, the ignorance continues at the Star.

Leslie,

I said you 'might' be worth the time. A person only has so much time. I do not know how many responsibilities you have. I do not know if your main responsibility in life is making sure your cat has enuff food in its bowl. It seems that is, or might be the case for many that post here. This may be the reason many are able to show up at protests that share some of your views.

I do not have that kind of time.

I certainly can not respond to everything you have said. I will say that much of your last post is full of confusion becuzz of all the mis-information that you have already swallowed as being fact.

Lets take the most glaring example. Chase NEVER admitted to anything even close to what you are saying. What he said after the shooting incident on the border was that it was not outside the relm of possibility that MM could have done it. However, I believe the bullet was lodged in the man, and needed removal. Have you ever heard of Ballistic analysis? Why did not the cops persue the MM that might have done it and get something like that going ? Becuzz they knew that it was pointless to do so since we were not even in the area in question at that time, and we would never do such a thing.

For you to say for fact they did, and that Chase actually SAID this, shows me that most of what we would be talking about would be lost on you. It seems many times you take things, twist them around to serve your agenda, then spit them out everywhere. Your writing varies from mostly truthful, to a volatile mixture of half truths and lies.

Perhaps it was worth a try.

"'The rogue theory is absolutely true,' he said." "He" being James Chase, head of the California Minutemen. San Diego Union -Tribune, July 26, 2005.

According to Andy Ramirez of Friends of the Border Patrol, as reported in the North County Times, James Chase told Ramirez he wanted to put snipers on the border. Chase countered that he said he wanted to put an ex-military sniper from his team on the border alone to do reconnaissance. I don't know (and don't care) whether Ramirez or Chase was closer to the truth. But why would Chase use a sniper to do reconnaissance? Anyway, two people were shot, and Chase said the perpetrators were rogue minutemen. Sounds like a connection to me, but note that I have never claimed that the rogues reported to Chase, however likely that may be.

If the shooters were "special ops" minutemen, or rogues as Chase says, then they wouldn't be with the regulars, i.e. you guys, and likely not even known to you. Ballistics testing of your weapons would be pretty much pointless if the special ops guys weren't in your camp. Besides, it would have taken days to test the scores of guns the handful of you were hauling around for "self-defense." But I hear the shooting matter is still open. Maybe we'll know more soon.

OK, you're too busy to answer all my questions. So let me try one easy question and see how far we get: How come Joe has to travel to Orange County and east Los Angeles County, and the rest of you never get to travel to Joe's home base, Ventura County? Surely there are a few people without papers up that way.

And, yeah, all I do is feed cats, expose neo-fascists, and unwind the knotted mess you try to make of publicly available facts. So how about a break, Don?

He is at the border, no computer access.

We are looking for Patriotic Musicians and Singers that they want to be part of the Minuteman Project Bands, to tour America & defend our Borders!
Who am I..
My name is Luca Zanna, a recent Legal Immigrant from Rome, Italy. I am a proud American Citizen and member of The Minuteman Project. I am the composer of the song "the Minutemen" and producer and author of the patriotic CD "Wake Up America",and the music director of The Minuteman Project Bands.

What I am looking for...
I am looking for great bands (already together and established) and/or good musicians from all over the 50 states who wish to become the official "Minuteman Project" band in their own state and/or region. The "Minuteman Project" will be a highly publicized music group that will tour across America and help The Minuteman Project to protect our borders and citizens! So, just to be clear, we are not just seeking musicians who are looking for gigs, but we are seeking American Patriots who love America and wish to support The Minuteman Project and its cause!

How to become the Minuteman Band in your own state...
Send us a demo (cassette tape or CD audio) or, if you wish and are able, a music video of your band performing at least 3 songs from the CD "Wake Up America". We don't care about the quality of the recording...we need just to listen to your live sound and evaluate your musical skills. Also, along with the demo, send us a clear photo of your band and a personal biography of each element and your accomplishments, if any.

What is for you and your band...
If your band is selected, it will be officially named "The Minuteman Project Band" for your state and we will start to book your band for concerts in your state (and /or region), with TV and Radio interviews and possible promotion/live and taped performances.
We invite you to join us and entertain during all of our local and national events... that means extra revenues for you and your band, extra fun, a little (or possibly a great deal) of fame, and a public forum and outlet to expose your talents.
But more importantly, the opportunity to help to give national promotion to the Minuteman Project and yourselves with your Live performances.
Your participation will also help us to raise the necessary funds to fight against the Illegal Invasion in America.
You may be helping in the war on terror, assisting in stopping the illicit drug trade across our borders which is poisoning Americans, and in preserving the United States as a nation governed by the orderly rule of law...
not by the chaotic rule of political tyrants and their pandered mobs of illegal aliens!


The Music...
The concert will consist of at least 12 songs selected from the CD "Wake Up America", plus the following revised with your own style: Yankee Doodle, God Bless America, Star-Spangled Banner and, of course, some of your own original songs in theme with our message.
Our music style can be defined: Patriotic Folk/Rock!
We have no affiliation with, nor will we accept any assistance by or interference from separatists, racists or supremacy groups or individuals, no matter what their race, color, or creed.

What to do next
Make a demo and send it to:
Luca Zanna
PO BOX 1767
Apple Valley Ca. 92307
and meanwhile, thanks for your support and please join the Minuteman Project!

Luca Zanna

Too bad the Young Americans, that rightwing choir fom the 60s, aren't that young anymore, but they probably can still whistle Dixie for y'all.

Hasn't anyone responded to your offer, how long have you been searching now?

You must be desparate if you have to solict at this commie site . . .

Fred ... good to read some of your comments again.

With as much energy being spent here on who is or isn't a racist, fascist, etc., there's so much dust being kicked up that I felt some important issues were being lost in the noise.

1st point: regardless of your personal view of the connection or lack thereof between folks like Stormfront, etc., and SOS/MM ... and regardless of how much you despise racism and bigotry, and I do despise it as well, those skinhead pinheads can't be prevented 'legally' from showing up where ever they please. Freedom of speech and right to assemble cuts both ways. It's very, very unfortunate that these skinheads feel the need to come out and corrupt and obfuscate an otherwise real set of problems introduced with uncontrolled illegal immigration.

2nd Point: whether a bunch of skinhead idiots want to show up and muddy the debate on illegal immigration isn't going to change the way I vote for future candidates for office or on state initiatives. I don't care one way or the other about anyone's skin color ... but I do care about what control I can exert over what programs my tax dollars do or don't fund. I don't believe that the USA has a moral or legal responsibility to import the economically disadvantaged of the world and force the American public to fund not only the social, educational, and law enforcement services consumed by them, but also involutarily subsidize the profits of the businesses that employ them by picking up the tab for the public services they consume. I view efforts by the liberal left or the business lobby right to 'force' people like me to accept funding this as attempts at coercion.

Why do I use a word like 'coercion'? Because the liberal left has a belief system or framework that believes all the economically disadvantaged of the world have a 'right' to live and work here in the USA. The business lobby right-wing believes they have a right to circumvent our labor laws and subvert the government's program on checking employee's work status to maximize their profits and shift some of their 'cost of goods' onto the American public. I believe that neither group has the right to force me to pay my hard earned dollars to support their beliefs, especially when I disagree with them.

I believe that there should be a LEGAL mechanism for companies to solicit the use of foreign nationals in their labor pool, and that employers should be forced through rigorous enforcement to carry the associated costs of making that choice to fulfill their labor needs. I believe that participation in that imported labor force should NOT grant foreign nationals any special or accelerated privileges towards US citizenship ... they can apply for citizenship just like anyone else and follow the processes and time durations like anyone else.

hey - I have some more talc right here for ya

I've datamined the connections between the extremists websites and SOS

Your weak and redundant denials are doing you no good here - no matter what words you use or how you rephrase it

Your own attempts to steer the issues on agribusiness gave you away - you dropped the ball and fouled out on that little play

Oh well - can't win them all I guess

I think they should appoint someone else - someone smarter and slicker for the job

butt that's just me

for sorry candy ass luca zanna

Hex, again you miss my point while you chase butterflies.

I'm saying that it really doesn't matter to me what you do or don't find out about people in groups like SOS/MM ... so knock yourself out.

My opinions on the ISSUE of illegal immigration are formed upon my own experiences and research. I grew up on a farm that was literally on the border. I know a lot about agribusiness, from both sides. I've worked with green card workers, and I've dug ditches and driven tractors 12 hours a day with them.

I'm not saying I'm any more an expert on the issue than anyone else ... just that I have my opinions on this issue that are MY OWN. They are not formed by groups like SOS or MM, so whatever you find as fact, or what you pose as fiction isn't going to have any impact on my understanding of the ISSUE of illegal immigration.

Data mine me all you like ... doesn't matter to me. I'm not affiliated with any group, so you'll just waste your time, which is a good thing. I just think there's a lot of people just like me out there in the population who are tired of our government's policies (or lack thereof) on illegal immigration and will be voting for cadidates and initiatives along those lines.

Glad to see your paranoia is still keeping you busy.

> Data mine *me* all you like

you ? who said anything about you ?


> there's a lot of people just like me

more wet dreams



> your paranoia

what do *I* have to be paranoid about - I'm not pushing an agenda or fronting for a group which is..

notice though how your still here - still plugging away - still pushing those ideas which *just happen to be SOS's new public image* of not being tied to extremists and being "average popular public values"

-all while the SOS website dips so low it's not even on the chart anymore..


but IMC is


like I said, if I was them I'd fire you since your failing to sell their new public image

but you are smart enough to con them it seems - or simply the best they could scrounge up


as to what I'm busy doing - it doesn't even involve you or SOS - the datamining I do is on a variety of subjects for issues far more important than a handful of local racists floundering about while they fade away

I don't even bother to post at all unless it's to expose and refute people like you - I have no agenda

in part because I'm too busy doing other more important things online, and also have a life involving work and other activities which I do for free that are not even political at all

Hex, not sure what you mean by "Your weak and redundant denials" as my post contained no comments denying anything.

All I said is that whether or not there is real proof of a connection between the skinhead pinheads and SOS/MM does not affect my own personal opinion on the separate issue of illegal immigration. I don't draw my opinions from SOS/MM. I'm not convinced that there is factual proof of a connection ... unfortunately, the racist pinheads can show up where ever they like, and I think it's fair to say that the pro-immigration crowd has ample motivation to "make political hay" from their appearances. My personal take on the Skinhead pinheads is that they have their own twisted reasons for wanting a stop to illegal immigration that only they subscribe to, and no one in the mainstream on either the 'pro' or 'anti' side of the debate would give the skinheads view of 'solutions' any validation.

I believe completely that everyone on both sides of the illegal immigration debate should confront, protest against, and otherwise rebuke the Stormfront skinheads and get those cockroaches to go back and hide in their holes ... but I don't consider the pro-illegal immigration crowds motivations as entirely 'pure' at trying to portray them as the 'face' of the anti-immigration groups. It's a convenient means of detering the debate away from real solutions to real problems.

And why is this tactic effective for the pro-immigration crowd? Because deflecting the debate away from holding meaningful public debate on solutions to the very real problems introduced by unhindered illegal immigration helps maintain the status quo ... the status quo means continuation of the exploitation of those that cross the border illegally, continued deaths in the desert, continued failure of our social services, and the continued coerced subsidization of US business profits by the American public through their taxes.

It's a reality that the mainstream American public will never, ever support truely "open borders". It's also a reality that the mainstream American public will never ever support sealing the borders utterly and completely. So where's the middle ground? The middle ground is a enforcable, verifiable work visa program that does NOT grandfather people that have already violated our laws to enter the US ... to do so would start a "Gold Rush" tsunami of people entering the country illegally in order to participate in the grandfather clause. Once you have that program in place, and you aggressively enforce it both at the border and at the business offices ... people stop dying in the desert because they can take a bus instead. Companies have to righteously build their labor costs into their products and services instead of pushing a portion of their "cost of goods" onto the American public, which then 'levels' the playing field. I have no problem with importing labor into our economy from any country as long as the businesses the employ foriegn nationals are forced to carry the financial responsibility for creating that labor market and attracting that labor pool.

looks to me like you're spending more time than I am - doing damage control

so now I'm part of the crowd that interferes with the productive resolution of your immigration woes ?

- a resolution that just happens to involve the "not important" issue of extremist racists pushing it for their own ends

oh boo hoo

poor Timmy can't win for losing it seems

> looks to me like you're spending more time than I am - doing damage control

Uh ... damage control? Who's damage do I care about controlling? Go after the skinhead nazis with a vengence, knock yourself out, hope you drive them back into their holes. It would be the best possible outcome for everyone. Good hunting.

> so now I'm part of the crowd that interferes with the productive resolution of your immigration woes ?

I just said that the skinhead issue and the immigration issue are two separate issues. The unfortunate thing is that you have the two groups trying very hard to gain leverage through attempts to connect the two isssues: the skinheads themselves by using the real problems of illegal immigration as a means to attempt to provide validation to their twisted and repulsive belief system; and some of the pro-immigration open-borders crowed who want the bluster of "fighting racism" to obfuscate and deter discussion of real solutions to the problems introduced in our society by unregulated illegal immigration.

> - a resolution that just happens to involve the "not important" issue of extremist racists pushing it for their own ends

I never said that running the skinheads back into their holes wasn't important ... it would actually help make it possible to debate the immigration issue without all the 'racist' spear rattling. I just said they were 'separate' isssues. The skinheads want to stop immigration for a bunch of repulsive reasons all their own that have nothing to do with the real world where we are ALL being impacted by the REAL problems introduced by unregulated illegal immigration. It's not MY problem ... it affects all of us, including the illegal immigrants themselves who are being exploited.

>oh boo hoo
>
> poor Timmy can't win for losing it seems

I'm not trying to win anything, not trying to powder up, put down, or disenfrancise you or anyone else ... just stating an opinion ... my own personal opinion. If you or anyone else find anything of value in it, fine, if you disparge it, whatever ... I've got nothing wrapped up in it. Take it at face value. The only person making an attempt to twist my personal opinion into some larger 'scheme' is you. There is no 'scheme', no cover up, no damage control. Just a statement of my own personal beliefs. I don't expect you to agree with it, nor do I care. If you want to spend your time making my opinions seem like they are part of some other agenda, plan, etc., ... Uh, whatever, yawn ... you're free to spend your time as you please.

> my opinions seem like they are part of some other agenda


that's what the datamining shows


if anyone important who doesn't already know this wants to see I'll post it


You know Timmy it's too bad our memory isn't quite as bad as yours is -

Looking at older threads we see how you "evolved" from DIRECTLY DEFENDING THEM to the newer tactic of distancing youself and SOS from them to the newest tactic of now mildly play attacking them (which always stops short of actually staying away from them at protests - no we're treated to weak excuses insted)


play attacking

and my how defensive you've become - you spend more time deflecting my exposure than you do playing the "let's forget how I got started on here" role

Hex, the only person spending the time to dig and try to artificially construct some larger conspiracy theory is you.

A couple months ago, I simply took a position that it was ethically and morally wrong to stalk someone and try to do material damage to their lives because of their personal beliefs ... regardless of what those beliefs are or how repugnant they may seem ... because to do so, and support such actions starts us all down the slippery slope of classifying who's beliefs are protected and who's beliefs are open to material attack. Who then judges if a personal and material attack by one civilian upon another is justified or not? Do we want to live in a society where individuals like yourself are permitted to make that judgement outside the law? To do so violates the "equal protections" guaranteed under our constitution. Once you step outside that box ... even if it seems justified by a vile belief system ... you put everyone's equal protection in play, even your own. I never validated the beliefs themselves. We're back to the Salem Witchhunt days if we say that kind of behavior is acceptable ... or justifiable based upon your own 'moral' judgement of someone elses beliefs. You can't one day say it's OK to persecute someone based upon their beliefs, then the next say your own personal beliefs are protected under the law ... because to live in that world means you can be next.

Two months ago I said the skinheads were repulsive trash, and I said it again here in this thread ... the only inconsistency is in how you twist, rearrange, and try to create an appearance of inconsistency to support and promote your own agenda. You twist my words because you'd rather spend your time focused on character assassination of people you disagree with instead of debating and discussing real isssues and posing real solutions.

If I were concerned about anything I've ever posted here, why would I use the same handle? Because I've consistently made my statements based upon the same basic positions while you've consistenly tried to paint and repaint your own views of my words as a means to discredit anything that sounds like reasoned debate. You can cut/paste and rearrange my words to come up with anything you want ... the only person scheming and promoting an agenda here is you.

They think it's time for you to fold up your sheets and go home.

> regardless of what those beliefs are

defending NAZIS and equating their beliefs WHICH KILLED MILLIONS (they "believe" in GENOSIDE - such "beliefs" are ILLEGAL in many countries in the world - as was pointed out to you) with the peace movement's beliefs of non-violence (as opposed to nazi mass murder)


> stalk / material attack

again as was pointed out to you PUBLIC EXPOSURE of PUBLICLY AVAILABLE INFORMATION

NOT illegal...



so there you have it - he admits it himself - he was DEFENDING THE NAZIS just a few short months ago on here

then when he saw the reaction, he waffled to start distancing himself and SOS (mind you this was all in the context of our displeasure with the NAZIS and SOS protesting together - the first reports and pictures of the nazi flags, the *very same people seen at only SOS events then later seen WAVING NAZI FLAGS LATER WITH THEM*)

THIS is what Timmy started out defending on here...

using exactly the same doublespeak word games he's using now - the datamining shows it's still him and he's still doing it even when he uses different handles

he's toned down, shifted *appearent* positions since then but he's never actually changed - anything..

his own words above prove it - he STILL defends nazi beliefs and calls public exposure of them "illegal"

just as he calls undocumented aliens "illegal"

same ol' Timmy..

all his games revolve around the original issue - the only issue he's interested in

everything else he says IS A RUSE - he's trying to trick us and talk us into supporting SOS...

he thinks if he candy coats and white washes these facts we'll bite and swallow them

it never seems to sink into his thick skull WE DON'T CARE and don't want to play his endless word games

he's very persistent and keeps plugging away at it because that's why he's here - that's his agenda, he's fronting for SOS, doing PR and damage control

He thought if he changed handles it would help - it didn't because we know his style, know his AGENDA...

He's become a troll

a SOS troll

trolls don't take NO for an answer - they never give up and never go away

they change handles, they change tactics, change positions but the heart of the matter - the agenda - never changes

we should ignore him and be on guard for his next face change

SOS is dying and most of the hits they got were from trolling on here - I saw a clear relationship when I transposed traffic graphs...

and that's why he's here - he thinks he's smart enough to trick us, smooth enough to talk us into supporting SOS, and thinks we don't REMEMBER HIM, remember what he started out doing on here - DIRECTLY DEFENDING NAZIS by claiming they are legal but us exposing them is ILLEGAL

He's a NAZI SUPPORTER, a NAZI SYMPATHIZER - his last post just above proves it

1) The only thing I've defended on this board is the concept of our country's constitutional framework for equal protection.

2) I've said repeatedly that Nazi beliefs are vile and repugnant, and any LEGAL means to thwart them is a very good thing. Just as I believe any LEGAL means should be taken to thwart the anti-abortion religious zealots who believe they have a God-given right to bomb clinics and murder doctors. Anyone who acts upon their belief system to commit a crime and violates the rights of others should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law ... if that crime is racially or ethnicly motivated, lock em up and throw away the key.

3) Yes, I do believe that foriegn nationals that cross our borders in violation of our federal laws are 'illegal' aliens ... because it's ILLEGAL ... and I don't believe that foriegn nationals from any country have a born, God-given, human-rights based, whatever, right to freely immigrate to the US in an uncontrolled or unregulated manner. I am very much in favor of LEGAL immigration ... as that has formed the foundations of our country for 200+ years ... and believe that continued LEGAL immigration can only enrich our culture and economy.

4) I believe the solution to the problems introduced by illegal immigration CANNOT be solved by stationing federal agents on the border every 100 feet ... it must be solved by addressing the labor market and the businesses that exploit that labor market. That means a viable guest-worker program and BIG penalties for businesses that try to circumvent it. Unfortunately, we have a pandering, deceitful Republican administration and Congress that has the business lobby holding one gonad ($$$) and the Latino pro-immigration lobby holding the other gonad (Votes).

5) I believe that placing two feet on US soil does not automatically infer the privileges associated with being a LEGAL resident or US citizen. Note I said PRIVILEGES. Human rights - absolutely. Equal protection under the law - absolutely. Access to CIVIL services that are funded by taxpaying LEGAL residents - No. Getting a free education, free health care, welfare, or government subsidized housing in the US is NOT a global human right for anyone on the planet that can take a boat, plane, car, or bicyle to physically step across our borders ... these are CIVIL privileges that should be made available to any LEGAL resident and LEGAL immigrant as they have properly applied for the residency status and are paying into the tax base to help fund the services they consume.

6) I'm not a member of or 'associated' with any organization. I'm not promoting anyone else's 'agenda'. I'm just an individual expressing an opinion based upon my own experiences.

7) I am very open to learning other people's alternative solutions or approaches to changing our broken and inequitable government policies and systems. I think the G.W. Bush administration is one of the worst things to happen to this country in a very long time. I actually get a lot from Fred Rice's writtings ... don't always agree 100% with him, but I often find more common ground than I thought I would, and that makes me rethink some of my opinions or beliefs.

8) Hex, instead of calling me a racist ... why don't you actually contribute something constructive. If you were President for a day, what would you DO to address the problems associated with unregulated illegal immigration?

1.) - 2.) you completely side-stepped the point about calling nazi beliefs legal yet calling public exposure of nazis illegal


3.) > foriegn nationals from any country (don't) have a born, God-given, human-right

this side-steps the issue that anyone can and should expose nazis, that doing so is a universal human right - you attempt to frame rights within nationality, another giveaway


4.) side-steps the issue that you started out defending SOS - who DO think guarding the border is important and who only attack the labor issue on the VICTIM's side insted of protesting at the businesses *headquarters* like WE suggested


5.), 6.), 7.) - blowing smoke up our asses. either not the issue, not important (diversionary tactics) or represent more waffling - looking for straws to clutch at to spin that damage control web around SOS and NAZIS


8.) bait and diversion plus rhetorical - a classic one, matter of fact...

what I "would" do doesn't matter - it's what YOUR DOING and what you've BEEN DOING that does

the "constructive" high ground shelter pops up once more - I already answered it - I'm down in the water below muck raking. That's MY "constructive" effort...

to ignore the obvious and attempt to frame the debate is an attempt to box me in - to drag me up that hill and imprison me within a cage of your own making, to pigeonhole me, so that I can no longer muck rake, as the muck I'm collecting is FROM YOU



and new twists exposed ;


"I'm learning" - (this lays the groundwork for waffling in an acceptable way, and opens a new round of time consuming exposure to prove otherwise, when you revert back yet again. Plus baits people into "teaching you" - a way to waste even more time while you keep practicing, figuring out ways to get us to accept SOS's new image)

IMC is nothing but a testbed for you to practice your PR skills on...


"I'm not connected at all with anything or anyone" - (just a random person, yet another "fresh start please" - even more distance please)

Hex, the only thing your response proves is that holding a reasoned debate on real issues and real solutions is impossible with you ... you can't debate or argue with an idiot, they just drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience.

Bait? What bait? This is a public forum ... isn't one of the cornerstones of indymedia where the average person can express their opinions in an uncensured, uncontrolled environment as long as they are 'civil'? I'm sure there's some reasonable people here that think for themselves and will DO something constructive about improving our society instead of listening to your endless droning. Politically, the middle ground is ultimately going to 'win' the debate on illegal immigration. The extremists on both sides ... the left wing open borders crowd and the right-wing close the borders crowd can't succeed in setting the national agenda because neither group can appeal to the mainstream voters.

> can't debate or argue with an idiot, they just drag you down to their level and beat you with their experience.

that's the second time you've pasted that wisdom insted of your own original thoughts which I saw long ago elsewhere but I thought I'd cut you some slack on and not expose the plagiarism



and more framing -

> left wing open borders crowd / right-wing close the borders crowd


the extremist racist club trying to get mainstream / normal people

ah - that's better


the implication is that not being willing to being talked into accepting the agenda guarantees failure in all things immigration related..

obviously *if it was a failure* you wouldn't be here trying to alter it in the first place


you know it's funny - you can't even get me to take a stand on the issue as a point of attack, yet the more you "debate" the more you give away yours

and I don't see anyone debating either - no one else here will even give you the time of day anymore, and I'm only doing so to expose you - muck raking


"impossible" implies your failure is my fault, implies there IS failure in general on the issue - now I wonder who would see it that way ? someone with an agenda to sell ?

clue: who is it that whines about the number of "illegal" border crossings *as things stand now* ?

idiot indeed !

Welcome to Hex doublespeak ... where open and honest expression of an opinion on a factual issue is labeled 'Hostility'? And you say I'm the one with the agenda?

Let me clarify one thing ... I shouldn't have used the term 'impossible'. I should have used 'pointless' since you and I have daimetricly opposed goals: my goal is to present an personal opinion about real issues and learn from others. Your goal is to label, obfuscate, and confuse any communication that isn't perfectly aligned with your agenda so that you can drown it out with your noise.

> confuse any communication that isn't perfectly aligned with your agenda


tell me Timmy, what's my agenda ?



and confuse ? I thought I've been perfectly clear - I've said it several times now


Muck raking - does that confuse you ?



tell you what, let another day and a couple of posts go by - then plead that you only wish to learn again


who knows - you might get lucky and someone will take the bait this time..

luca come out come out where ever you are. Are you playing your sorry ass piece of crap music?

A visit to the SOS site showed that the SOS discussion forums are down. All other links except one to a now-past demonstration are functional.

One cannot access the forums and one cannot register to join the forums. Both links are down. All other links except one to a now-past action are functional.

I'm told that some people were sort of challenging Joe Turner's authority there lately - Maybe that has something to do with it.

The bulk of SOS's "members" do nothing but post on the forums, as witnessed by the fact that after weeks of preparation they could only pull 20 people out to their latest Laguna Beach demo, and by the constant harping by Turner and others to try to get these people off their asses.

Well, _that's_ not gonna happen, and if the forum stays down - or has been shut down - then it may indicate that the deeper crisis in SOS some of us have been expecting may have materialized.

If not, it's only a matter of time.

I've been monitoring their traffic and they've fallen completely off the chart - there's no longer anything to monitor..

on a lighter subject I have a friend (who recently bought one of my transmitters) that rides a mountain bike try to claim he gets more exercise than I do riding fast on the street (3 or 4 days a week to/from work)

I ride very fast - I told him no, it's because I ride faster, the air resistance causes drag which takes more effort to overcome, I was just now looking at nutrition info for cider (which I'm drinking right now) and came across this;

BMX or Mountain - 578 calories per hour
< 10 Mph, Leisure, To Work or for Pleasure - 272 calories per hour
14-15.9 Mph, Racing or Leisure, Fast, Vigorous Effort - 680 calories per hour
16-19 Mph, Racing/not Drafting Very Fast, Racing General - 816 calories per hour
> 20 Mph, Racing, Not Drafting - 1088 calories per hour

I ride 23 - 26 Mph always..

So I burn twice as many calories as he does, plus he hits rocks and tree roots and hurts himself and his bike..

The truth regarding immigration as of the year 2000. It has only gotten worse than these statistics. These stats dont reflect the entirety of the Illiegal immigrant problem.

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/stp-159/STP-159-Mexico.pdf

what problem ? I don't see any problem, except ^

It matters not if one or more forums go down. Another will spring up. That is the way of a dedicated movement. The statement you made in regards to a challenge to turners "authority" highlights that mindset. If what you wrote is true, and the members are less than satisfied with the progress at SOS, then a challenge would indicate a simmering desire to do more. It would prove our desire to push forward, rather than quit or step back. So I am a little confused about the wisdom behind your logic that this theoretical developement you proffer would bode well for illegal immigration proponents.
The power behind any movement springs from those who support it, rather than a single entity that delivers that message.
If Something were to happen to SOS, along the lines of it being sold out, censored, changed entirely, or the owner suffered some illness; The dedicated activists will just go on, learning from that turn of events and develope a defense against it.
The owner of the SOS site is the creator of that entity; but the will and drive of the individual members is what propels the movement.
Just look around at all the other posts that reference the multitudes of other websites in the immigration law enforcement movement. SOS is hardly our only choice

we'll be stuck with 'em - I can see it now ^

The truth--not your imaginary projection from 5-year-old data--is that immigration, with and without U.S. permission, is significantly down from 2000. http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/53.pdf

So let's see--the minutemen aren't really fighting an "invasion," and they're not interdicting drug traffickers or terrorists. So what are they doing? Hmmmm. Stirring up anti-Mexican, anti-Chicano/a bigotry, perhaps? Fingering scapegoats to cover the U.S. government's determination to cut social services and keep real wages stagnant?

Suggestion to the remaining minutemen--turn your guns to the policy makers and the fat cats who are sucking up wealth and consolidating power. Stop fingering fall guys for their agenda. Shooting border crossers might relieve some of your stress, but it isn't going to fix the problems.

We have not set our strategy solely on one aspect of the illegal immigration scheme. Most of us very well understand the complex nature of the causes and what is behind them. If people tring to cross the border illegally would stop viewing us as the enemy, and turn on the those who would enable and encourage thier exodus in thier countries of origin, they would be having a more profound effect on the root of the problem. You cite some racist agenda, but yet fail to realize that if racism did not exist, we would still be having the same problems with greedy, power hungry, and lustful people. Would you feel better about things in general if those who seek to oppress did so in another fashion? Would depriving the oppressors of the racism tool stop them? All the evidence at hand does not support that conclusion. History does not support that conclusion. these are very intelligent, driven people. They have used color, race, nationality, religion, politics, language, money, and who knows what else against us for generations. Illegal immigration is not solely some manifestation of human growth or trends. It is another weapon of the conquering entity that we all refer to as globalalist domination. That some of us feel a need to draw a boundary based on our current national ones does not necessarily mean it to be a racially contrived one

^
We know
We have not
Most of us
us as the enemy
some of us

the group spokesman

>>We have not set our strategy solely on one aspect of the illegal immigration scheme.

No, but you're after "illegal" immigrants on the border, at day labor centers, at your representatives' offices, in Sacramento, and in Washington. At every turn, you blame Mexican migrants, and in that you're handing a new scapegoat to the system. And the only people being hurt are the migrants--you know and I know that you haven't even bruised the economic forces at work.

>>If people tring to cross the border illegally would stop viewing us as the enemy . . .

Then stop holding guns on them. Stop waving swastikas in their faces. Stop depriving them of a livelihood, and stop trying to make them the target of mainstream hatred.

If your plan really is to force the migrants back to Mexico to be good capitalists so they can "fix Mexico," I don't think they'll see that light at the end of your capitalist gun barrel.

>>if racism did not exist, we would still be having the same problems with greedy, power hungry, and lustful people

No, not the same problems. We would have taken away their divide-and-conquer technique, which the minutemen are only reinforcing. We would have gained liberty and unity for a force of people that would be large enough and powerful enough to actually create change.

>>They have used color, race, nationality, religion, politics, language, money, and who knows what else against us for generations.

The minutemen and their ancestral bigots have used color, race, nationality, religion, politics, language, money, and who knows what else against us for generations.

>>That some of us feel a need to draw a boundary based on our current national ones does not necessarily mean it to be a racially contrived one

Maybe it doesn't "necessarily" mean that, but that is, in effect, what it is. See my comment for more on why I call you racists.

The net effect of what you're doing is to harm living, breathing human beings. That's what Turner's New Paradigm, "the transference of pain," really means: harm others to benefit yourselves. Somehow you've gotten all twisted into thinking that attacking Mexicans is irrelevant if you can make Baldwin Park shell out $40K.

And there's the racism: that you're hurting vulnerable people doesn't matter if you can bring some attention to your cause, whatever it is, because those Mexicans just don't count in your tally. Because, as is clear on your lists and at your rallies, you don't think of Mexicans as people. If you did, you couldn't sacrifice them so blithely. If, indeed, you really have some other agenda.

Again, brandishing guns at border crossers is nothing but racism at its most manifest. You seem like a thoughtful person, so surely you can see that the minutemen have had no other effect at all, except to grease the machinery you claim to despise.

The minutemen are not the only civilians at the border with arms. There are drug dealers, coyotes, rapists, murderers and more; primarily on mexicos side, but encroaching on US ever more. If Mexico would step up enforcement on thier own side, people would feel less need to protest with weapons.
As far as generations of minutemen oppressing the mexicans; I doubt you'll find such prolific genetic links at the border. I'm sure there are some, but many are first timers to causes such as this.
You also have to remember that many criminal elements have been deported to southern countries as part of, or in lieu of, punishment here in America. If they can come back in at will, how will this keep them from harming people on this side of the border? As you can see, our president does not take our safety very seriously. And in addition, the mexican government does not take any responsibility for the safety of the mexican people, or American people seriously either. Both administrations wish to drop the barriers for the sake of trade, not security, prosperity for its' citizens, and not for the betterment of people in general. Standing in defiance at the only barriers we have now, even if it seems merely symbolic to anyone, at least conveys a message to both sides. Surely that can't be denied.
I can't deny the existence of racism, or racists. But to state that that is the sole reason behind, or that everyone's motivation is such, is just not in keeping with all of the available information. No one is pure of bias. To proclaim so would be disingenous. We have seen what appears to be racism from some that would oppose us. Certainly you've read or heard comments by people who openly advocate for the killng of white people in an effort to overthrow the American government. I doubt that everyone involved subscribes to that mentality, but yet I do not see much finger pointing from our opposition regarding those people for thier racist commentary or actions.

"drug dealers, coyotes, rapists, murderers and more; primarily on mexicos side, but encroaching on US ever more. If Mexico would step up enforcement"


the broken record - this is what gives you away


"I can't deny the existence of racism, or racists."

> But to state that that is the sole reason


it can't be ANY reason




> No one is pure of bias. To proclaim so would be disingenous.


that's the highest quality whitewash I've seen in awhile


the ol' "you're just as bad as us" in a pretty candy coating that goes down easy

Well, putting your best foot forward changes nothing. You speak volumes when you put the phrase "Turner's Authority" in quotes. It says Turner's "Authority" is defunct, or close to it.

I mean, look, everyone on the left understands a split.

They usually lead to mutual ruin, and they don't often tend to advance the cause. Sometimes they do - there are some notable cases, but a split in SOS won't be one of those.

No one else is doing what Turner was (?) doing. No one else has his flash in the pan media presence, his dictatorial "Will" or, frankly, his drive.

If you're counting on the "drive" of the people who (formerly?) made up SOS, well, they've demonstrated over and over that they are asleep at the wheel.

SOS may not have been your only choice, but it was the only
group in town playing its particular game.

I mean, what are _you_ going to do - form something new?

Like Ayatollah's Against Mexicans?

Hey, that's got a ring, don't you think?

-----------------------

won't matter
by AyatollahGondola Sunday, Oct. 09, 2005 at 2:57 AM

It matters not if one or more forums go down. Another will spring up. That is the way of a dedicated movement. The statement you made in regards to a challenge to turners "authority" highlights that mindset. If what you wrote is true, and the members are less than satisfied with the progress at SOS, then a challenge would indicate a simmering desire to do more. It would prove our desire to push forward, rather than quit or step back. So I am a little confused about the wisdom behind your logic that this theoretical developement you proffer would bode well for illegal immigration proponents.
The power behind any movement springs from those who support it, rather than a single entity that delivers that message.
If Something were to happen to SOS, along the lines of it being sold out, censored, changed entirely, or the owner suffered some illness; The dedicated activists will just go on, learning from that turn of events and develope a defense against it.
The owner of the SOS site is the creator of that entity; but the will and drive of the individual members is what propels the movement.
Just look around at all the other posts that reference the multitudes of other websites in the immigration law enforcement movement. SOS is hardly our only choice

add your comments

Hex may have already said all that needs to be said, but maybe I can add a bit more clarity to Ayatollah's comments.

>>There are drug dealers, coyotes, rapists, murderers and more; primarily on mexicos side, but encroaching on US ever more. If Mexico would step up enforcement on thier own side, people would feel less need to protest with weapons.

So you're on the border, many of you carrying both sidearms and longarms, because you think a drug dealer, coyote, rapist, or murderer is going to call you out for a showdown? My first thought is that you read too much Zane Grey as a child. But if that's what frightens you, then I suggest you arm yourself in Des Moines, too, since they probably have as great a concentration per square mile of drug dealers, rapists, and murderers. OK, the number of coyotes is probably smaller. But stick to one gun: looking at you guys, you'd probably be swimming in a pool of your own blood by the time you figured out which gun you were going to use.

Let me ask you this: how many confrontations have you all had with armed drug dealers, coyotes, rapists, and murderers on the border? That's what I thought. So tell me again, who are the guns for?

>>You also have to remember that many criminal elements have been deported to southern countries as part of, or in lieu of, punishment here in America. If they can come back in at will, how will this keep them from harming people on this side of the border?

And you're frightened by criminals sneaking back in from south of the border. Oh, come on--they got deported, they're at liberty, and you think they're tiptoeing across the desert to see if that warrant on them is still out?

Btw, what is a "criminal element"?

>>Both administrations wish to drop the barriers for the sake of trade, not security, prosperity for its' citizens, and not for the betterment of people in general. Standing in defiance at the only barriers we have now, even if it seems merely symbolic to anyone, at least conveys a message to both sides.

Are you really telling me you're patroling the borders trying to snatch up immigrants and call in la migra on day laborers for the sake of the Mexican people?!!?!??

Let me repeat myself: if your message is about "the betterment of people in general," it's not getting through. The only message from your side is that the all the problems of the U.S. can be solved by deporting and shooting Mexicans. And we agree, apparently, that that's crap.

>>But to state that that is the sole reason behind, or that everyone's motivation is such, is just not in keeping with all of the available information.

It's consistent with nearly everything I've read from minutemen/SOSers when they comment on Mexicans.

But I don't need to judge your motivations. If a guy calls me a bunch of foul names, throws a table lamp at me, rapes me, but then says he was really angry at his boss and didn't mean to take it out on me, I'm still sure I got that treatment because I'm a woman. It doesn't matter what he says he meant, what his motivations are. And every one of his buddies who take him out for a beer afterwards, tell him I deserved what I got and they're sure he didn't mean it, are misogynists, too.

So a lot of minutemen and SOSers say obscene things about Mexico, Mexicans, and Mexican culture, try to deprive Mexicans of employment, photograph them at gunpoint in humiliating T-shirts, vow to destroy their art, and try to kill them. And you tell me that they and the people who pat them on the back aren't racist. That argument isn't working for me, Ayatollah.

>>Certainly you've read or heard comments by people who openly advocate for the killng of white people in an effort to overthrow the American government. I doubt that everyone involved subscribes to that mentality, but yet I do not see much finger pointing from our opposition . . .

Nope, can't say that I have heard anything like that from our side. I've heard people demand European-Americans leave the hemisphere, but that's about it. I'll be happy to respond if you can find any comment about killing white people to overthrow the U.S. government from an anti-minuteman activist . Quotes and citations would be appreciated.

Ayatollah, your arguments are getting thin. But I appreciate the opportunity to clear things up.

Turner is the leader of our effort. We consign ourselves to that leadership, not necessarily due to our lack of qualification, but because we chose to do so. His authority is revoked only by individual action, or by his own desire to stop. We all sought out a place to gather and become active. He did not shanghai the membership either by treachery, connivance, bribery, or charisma. Neither does he possess or use some sort of prowess that have supposedly served people such as reverend Jim Jones of Guyana fame, or Sun Myung Moon. I believe you are wrong about the many members of SOS, but time will be the teller there. As for his authority now: I still have my heart in SOS, and will continue when the boards are back up. If they ever go down and stay down, I may solicit ideas for names here, but you'll need to do much better than what you have offered so far.
When I'm at SOS, I agree to follow Turners rule. It's command structure you know.

already said all that needs to be said, but maybe I can add a bit more clarity

you definately do - I was going to say that you make the points very well and detailed

sometimes I feel more like White on Rice suggested - having fun with them, more visual..

when I get down to brass tacks I post exactly the same as you do - covering each issue point-by-point

it's great to take a break and see other IMC people doing it too.. the pictures and commentary compliment eachother I think

I may solicit ideas for names here ^

"If Something were to happen to SOS", we'll come here

damn now I'll have to stock up on more talc..

The NEW THEME SONG for Ayatollahs Against Mexicans
(to the Tune of Tiptoe Thru the Tulips With Me)

Gondoleering thru the cesspool
oh, it's so cool
you can be like Joe,
Gondlolering thru the cesspool,
you know?

Stick ur pole in
well we're showin
all our Nazi sympathies,
Gondoleering thru the cesspool with me

The Chihuhuas cause me traumas
Hating Mexicans - it empowers me
Gondoleering thru the cesspool with me

Well its so fun
to carry a gun
at the border
taking shots for free
Gondoleering thru the cesspool with me

Well it's no joke
Joe's a good bloke
no more Mexicans
then we'll all be free
Gondolering thru the cesspool with me

Sure the US has it's own criminals. When we convict them, we put them in prison, or they get the death penalty in some cases. But as part of an agreement with Mexico, some of the people who commit crimes here in the US serve only some of their sentences here, and then are deported to Mexican prisons supposedly. But the US has seen many of the deportees re-arrested in the US for even further crimes here, during the times they are supposed to be in mexican jails. This leads to two in-escapable conclusions: They are re-entering the country in violation of their sentence, and that Mexico is not following through on their end of the incarceration agreements. That is a criminal element. A person who refuses to accept an rules on either side of the border. They break laws, serve some time or not, then go back and re-offend again, and again. Criminal element is not endemic to any one nation either. I have been close to that situation here in America too. I have had employees that have been molesters of children, convicted, incarcerated, and re-offended again, under the same circumstances. I'd call them a criminal element. But in any case, the human smuggling along the border has increased in volume over the past several years, and has now caught the interest of contraband profiteers as well. Now mostly they want to stay quiet, and undetected since that is the best way to move product and not get sent to prison, however that is the strategy of the more intelligent ones. When an opportunity of this level is advertised, and the porosity of the border is in the news a great deal now, the sound of easy money draws some rather short thinking entrepreneurs that employ the more pedestrian levels of protecting their investment. So yes, there are drug dealers/smugglers out there using illegal aliens as both cover and additional income sources, and they are armed. They will shoot people who might crimp their ability to move product. In addition, many people living on the border have been attacked, shot at, robbed, and burglarized. Several people have had their pet dogs killed just to prevent them from barking or because the dogs might have posed a threat to both smuggler and human contraband. I could easily argue this point with many references to articles and photos, but I have noticed that this media tends to censor nearly every post I make that contains them.


I won't tell you that I want to defend the border for the mexican people. Everyone on this planet needs to rise to their own defense primarily, and secondly to the defense of those who might not be able to defend themselves. The mexican people would not be served well by expecting or subjecting themselves to anyone’s protection, as that would lead to a symbiotic relationship in which they would be forever vulnerable to their host. Rather, their empowerment would be a much greater gift in the form of aid to work towards the common goal of unseating those powerful influences that have a chokehold on the ever elusive prosperity of all things mexican. I am not so noble as to have you believe that I am out for the betterment of all people. In fact, any one with such stated lofty goals should be considered suspect or dreamer. In either case, they wouldn't be much help towards solving the actual problems. I only want to contribute a little and protect a lot, but I am neither pathologicaly selfish, nor ferociously greedy. I'll point out that my interests do not include enslaving people in the form of economic servitude. I do however, believe that allowing the US borders to become obsolete at this time is premature, and that I believe it would be playing into the hands of those who have kept mexico, and many other Latin American countries under their thumb for quite some time. You have to consider any actions proffered by the global interests under suspicion due to their history, and their potential for abuse. I know it may seem harsh for those who may be affected first by the resistance to the plans and actions underway at present, but consider the long range damage to both cultures on either side of the border should the worst cases of globalist corporation/entities prove true. We have to think on the same scale as those who would plan our futures for us if we are to have any possible hand in altering or controlling it. Thinking as they do does not necessarily mean we need to act as they do, but it may seems like it sometimes.
I won't argue that the rhetoric on both sides has elevated the tensions and devolved into what seems like racial hatred and nationalist pride. Neither of these has any real human value that I can see at present. But I stated before that anyone claiming purity of racial bias would be disingenuous, so I won't tell you I'm not immune, nor will I defend or deflect an attack based on that premise. All I can say is that with that being the case on both sides of this debate, it would serve little purpose to aggrandize it or oversimplify that as the only problem as it will just detract from looking at any other solution. Racial barriers have been endemic to human conflict for a lot longer than America has been a country, or Latino has been a race. Solving our border crisis might be somewhat possible if we do not attempt to incorporate the far-reaching goal of eliminating racism at the same time or making that a prerequisite. Some deeply rooted differences take time to resolve, but that shouldn’t stop the work in other areas of conflict.
I have read about the mistreatment of some migrants, and I don’t doubt that some of these are true. Likewise, I have followed the prosecution of some Americans who were charged with committing them. I don’t believe in assessing the blame on solely one perpetrators crime, just because that crime seems to be more publicly humiliating though. If we are going to live in equality, and the rules are meant for everybody, all those involved should be held accountable for what laws they have broken. So improper detention should be punished, but the victim of those crimes were also perpetrators of one themselves, and many times they are not pursued due to the perception that their crimes are to be overshadowed by their victimization. Equality in the justice system cannot be applied this way or it will have a weakness that is exploitable by those who can profit from it. It is hard to uphold that standard, I’ll say, but I also believe that adherence to principles can be rewarding in the long run. As far as destroying someone’s art, I don’t think that art is at issue, but statements are; More to the point, when statements become demands or warnings. Everyone is entitled to freedom of expression within their own sphere, but I hardly feel that is justification for the rampant graffiti and tagging that has become commonplace on everything stationary or flat. There are private places for personal expression. Those that are public warrant the input of those involved, and from those footing the bill or living under its influences. Not everyone agrees on what is art. Baldwin Park is a prime example of how disagreeable an interpretation can be, and how not to go about discussing it. Getting to the employment issue, we have tried to influence contractors and homeowners’ decisions to hire improperly form the streets. Putting aside the unlawfulness of it for a moment, it is both a safety and an equity issue. I own a business and I am losing it to people who refuse to honor the system that guarantees worker safety, pay, and security standards. If they choose to sneak around and attempt to subvert these rules, they are the only ones who will profit, and myself, and others similarly situated will be driven to bankruptcy and beyond unless we defend ourselves by exposing them. You may view this act as being hateful towards the intended workers, but you are not considering all of the workers, but rather just the ones on the streets that day or those days. You must also take into consideration, the workers currently in my employ, many of them immigrants also I might add, as they will lose their jobs, health insurance, and pay scale to the ones on the street corner who will just keep offering themselves at lesser compensation rates as the competition keeps increasing, and the employers that skirt the system take further advantage

In closing, I’d address your request to provide quotes and citations regarding killing white people and overthrowing the American government, but I am once again fearful that the censorship activities might then omit the entire post over it. So I’ll continue that for a day next week, if I may, and see if this one makes the trip in its’ entirety tonight.

I'll give you an E for effort on your attempted lyrics Hmmmm. But don't send your resume off to the music networks just yet. By exposing your knowledge of Tiny Tim's nearly one and only claim of fame, you have dated yourself into the outcasts of the middle aged, who are usually not in consideration for jobs catering to the wants and desires of youth.
Thanks for thinking of me though

Well, enough playing around for now.

If you are in any way serious - in any way whatsoever beyond simply using a mis-stated or misinterpreted anti-globalist position as a veil to justify racism, imperialism, colonialism and genocide, - which I sincerely and completely doubt - then pay attention to this.

The cause of the disarticulation of Third World economies the world over is Imperial Capitalism, primarily European and Euro-American capitalism. The cause of the disintegration and degradation of the world's cultures is the same.

The forces that drove immigrants - mostly Mayan Indians - from Guatemala to the US were death squads "made in the USA."

Same for El Salvador.

The expansion of the global circuits of capitalism and its profits that people call "Globalization" has driven millions of Mexicans from their land - I mean their FARMS.

The city economies cannot absorb them because the _profits_ from such industrialization as exists _does not stay in the country_.

It comes _here_ in the form of superprofits that vastly enrich
the elites. HERE. It's just a more subtle form of the vast rip of of Mexico's gold and silver that occured over the pat several hundred years - and that , along with slavery, fueled the industrial revolution here and in Europe.

In other words, viewed through the narrow lens of economic values understood from a Eurocentric standpoint - the wealth of the US originated with and belongs to the people of the world - especially including the survivng First Nations and Mexican peoples and the African peoples who were enslaved here.

Viewed through the lens of the materialistic values of this society the WEALTH IS OURS BY RIGHT - It does not belong by right to the rich white man or to the white nation that "enjoys" a standard of living that was and still is BOUGHT WITH OUR BLOOD, LABOR AND TEARS, OUR LAND AND OUR "GOLD."

In the meantime the governments in the third world are all but universally puppet governments that must do the bidding of US imperialism if they are to have a place in The global economy _at all_.

If Mexicans want to "fix" Mexico the place to start is _here_.

Because the US imperialists run Mexico, just like they run the death squads, just like they run the drug trade you claim to be so concerned about.

These same forces have a record of genocide that is unparallelled in world history.

And if one thinks that under current conditions any country can break the imperial stranglehold without the most thoroughgoing revolution, well think twice.

The list of those who tried and died is long, from Lumumba to Allende, from Saddam Hussein to Manuel Noriega, and many others besides, from Iran to Guatemala and many points in between.

In fixing the blame for a worldwide system of death and exploitation of Mexican and other migrants who are forced here by the cold blooded operation of the system you help cover up the reality that drives that system and you help keep that system in place.

That is the most generous interpretation possible of your politics.

The probability - and it is high - is that instead you are a conscious supporter of the genocidal system of world exploitation, at least insofar as it serves you as a member of the white nation who lives off of our blood.

Truthfully, I prefer the neo-Nazis to the SOS phonies.

At least they are upfront about it all.

The sentence that reads:

In fixing the blame for a worldwide system of death and exploitation of Mexican and other migrants who are forced here by the cold blooded operation of the system you help cover up the reality that drives that system and you help keep that system in place.

Should read:

In fixing the blame for a worldwide system of death and exploitation ON Mexican and other migrants who are forced here by the cold blooded operation of the system you help cover up the reality that drives that system and you help keep that system in place.

he'll talk your ear off - about things you didn't ask about ^

so much so he doesn't even bother to use S P A C E S

but as to providing PROOF - well now he's *afraid to*

I don't understand many of your cryptic messages Hex, But I'll point out that you were the one that showed me that Indy had both hidden and deleted posts. I have posted many pictures and articles that were either hidden or deleted. None of them seemed offensive even to major news media outlets, so I can't help but wonder about thier reasons for doing so. But in any case, I have learned that if you want your message to get through, it is best not to include the offending material at the same time, lest you lose the whole post.

The cause of the disarticulation of Third World economies the world over is Imperial Capitalism, primarily European and Euro-American capitalism. The cause of the disintegration and degradation of the world's cultures is the same. >

Capitalism in itself is not the enemy, but rather the abuse of it is. Any form of economic distribution is open to exploitation. Communism might serve as an example as well. With the stated intentions of serving the masses, powerful interest quickly seized upon its' vulnerabilities and party priviledges to control both wealth and politics. So any system can be abused. Changing the economic systems rarely has a long lasting effect; The people that strive for dominance both politicaly and financially are quite intelligent, and would have ended up with the spoils under any economic system that did not provide a safety valve that would prevent it. I don't believe that rank and file Americans would defend the abuses of any economic system overall, especially in light of the way it has been used to sieze control of the political power base in the past century. I'm not at all saying that Capitalism doesn't have its' faults; Personally I believe that it has stifled the free market, and free enterprise covenants that supposedly stand at its' core. However I have not seen any terrific replacements that would end up equal to, or better, so I cannot support making that system the primary enemy at present. At the root of the problem is those who would abuse it, or any other.



Migrants coming to the US are being driven by many different methods. Death squads are just one of the tools in the arsenal the power hungry. I doubt the area of thier contrivance matters at all, as the ones behind that are free to roam the planet at will and set up shop whereever they choose. Placing the blame by current location would serve only to heighten tensions on the associated inhabitants which would then be used to justify another conflict, all the while the true perpetrators would steal away unscathed.

The expansion of the global circuits of capitalism and its profits that people call "Globalization" has driven millions of Mexicans from their land - I mean their FARMS. >

The attack on family farms happened in america too, if not first. Large corporations forced many out of thier lands and into bankruptcy. Some had been in the families for generations, just as the claim is made by Latin Americans based on years of inhabitation. Americans have not gone unscathed in this arena either, nor has it stopped. But migration has empowered the global agricultural entities here, and allowing it to continue will serve no long term strategy to combat them overall. I believe it will just continue to aid thier further conquests.



Profits do not stay in any country anymore. Profits are thought of on a global spectrum now. Just because they use them here in America, hardly means that Americans are thier chosen people. The wealth that is here is merely used as bait in a prolonged effort to disguise the scheme of dominance. If Americans turned thier backs on thier wars or prevented them from using the country as a power base, the wealth would be siphoned out of here faster than a 300 foot tsunami could destroy an island

the elites. HERE. It's just a more subtle form of the vast rip of of Mexico's gold and silver that occured over the pat several hundred years - and that , along with slavery, fueled the industrial revolution here and in Europe.
In other words, viewed through the narrow lens of economic values understood from a Eurocentric standpoint - the wealth of the US originated with and belongs to the people of the world - especially including the survivng First Nations and Mexican peoples and the African peoples who were enslaved here.
Viewed through the lens of the materialistic values of this society the WEALTH IS OURS BY RIGHT - It does not belong by right to the rich white man or to the white nation that "enjoys" a standard of living that was and still is BOUGHT WITH OUR BLOOD, LABOR AND TEARS, OUR LAND AND OUR "GOLD." >

This statement contributes to and exhibits the very racism that everyone so vociferously complains about. If you believe that all persons white are inherently at fault, or are to be accused or demonized by race, then you have succumbed to the mentality that you claim to despise. You cannot have a definition of racism that serves only one race, else it would not be called that. Make up another term, or admit the double standard. There are far too many mixed races in America for this to be a white nation. I am the product of racial mixing, as are my children. To demonize them by the content of thier genes would allow them no opportunity to live or fight for equality on either side of thier genetic makeup. Likewise for so many other Americans. There is no solid evidence anywhere that wealth is inherently gained by racial means. It might seem that way, largely due to the oversimplification of how it is acquired. But wealth does not have some mystical magnetic field that is drawn to a specific race. Wealth has been acquired by people of all races in all nations throughout the history world. It has just as easily been acquired and abused by all racially oriented people. It is the specific person(s) not a specific race that has either learned or evolved into a power seeking, lustful, entity. You find them in every country.

If Mexicans want to "fix" Mexico the place to start is _here_. >

The place to fight injustice is everywhere. But there is no place like home. If your homeland is not worthy of defending, than you do not belong anywhere. Mass migration does not indicate a willingness or ability to make change, but rather to escape. An area full of escapees does not indicate a willing army, or one that wants to fix anything. Face up to this reality please. If you believe that change will not be possible without the most thoroughgoing revolt, you will not obtain that through a population that flees from the enemy at nearly every opportunity. Whether you believe it or not, the mentality of those you are speaking in defense of, will not defend themselves or any deeply held principles. It is not in thier nature to do so. The ones that will, are the ones who have already fought and died, or are still fighting in thier homelands. It is hard to extend the respect you desire to those who would not stand with them. I understand why they flee. I just don't want to support them as you do. The planet can be a harsh place to live, and I don't believe that the responsibility to ensure equality should be shouldered solely by the voluntary few.



I am concerned about death squads, and about the drug trade. Both are tools of oppression and both need to be opposed. But once again, Imperialism is not an inherent American value. Granted there are those who have succumbed to its' excesses. But just like in any country, it is not the masses, but rather the few. I will agree that many Americans have lived well largely due to the inequities of the current systems. But it is not all of them, nor is it most; and waking them up to this is difficult since the media is controlled by the same powerful interests that would like to continue down this path. America needs a wake up call to injustice and the precarious perch of freedom we sit upon, as it is slipping away every year. I don't believe that wake up should include mass murder in any form though. Lashing out in that manner just exacerbates the loss of more freedoms worldwide, and will speed up the demise of yet one more democratic society.

And if one thinks that under current conditions any country can break the imperial stranglehold without the most thoroughgoing revolution, well think twice.
The list of those who tried and died is long, from Lumumba to Allende, from Saddam Hussein to Manuel Noriega, and many others besides, from Iran to Guatemala and many points in between.
In fixing the blame for a worldwide system of death and exploitation of Mexican and other migrants who are forced here by the cold blooded operation of the system you help cover up the reality that drives that system and you help keep that system in place.
That is the most generous interpretation possible of your politics.
The probability - and it is high - is that instead you are a conscious supporter of the genocidal system of world exploitation, at least insofar as it serves you as a member of the white nation who lives off of our blood. >

I will say this again. I am a product of race mixing, as are my children. I would not willingly or knowingly further any agenda that would openly or subversively seek to dominate them by genetics, without fighting it in some manner. I have no such white privilidge alledged. Any benefit derived by the exploitation of others is at most, coincidental, but not solicited or demanded. Neither would it be tolerated without response. I am not a member of a white nation. The American Constitution no longer allows, or makes exception for any race, color, or creed. That America has enemies within its' boundaries that do, does not implicate or prove that all Americans are.



It does surprise me that you'd prefer a small band of Nazis to the millions of Americans as opponents, since those with such small numbers, and easily refutable ideologies would make for a pitiful contest in the eyes of any spectators. nazism, neo-nacism, facism and related followers are so minute in quantity in America that they could hardly be considered as formidable opponents. In addition, the history of thier political influence makes a shooting gallery for anyone with a room temperature IQ. So debate or engage them if you desire, but it is not they who will either aid or oppose you to any worthwhile degree in as much as it pertains to what we have been discussing.

> I have posted many pictures and articles that were either hidden or deleted.

well well a known troll with a history on here wants to assure his direct PR BS won't go to the hidden section because people are supposed to find value in snowjobs devoid of any facts that educate us all about SOS and Timmy's club rules

I had some respect for your posting until recently hex, mostly because you exhibited a level of intelligence that would normally be accompanied by a standard of intercourse between other posters that wouldn't sink to juvenile taunting, and/or name calling. I don't know who Timmy is, or if it is meant to be some sort of negative reference somehow, but it is quite evident at this point that your goal is superficial, and your maturity is still incubative. I will expect yet another, or more posts from you, laced with the usual cryptic responses and feeble attempts at cynical humor after my final one addressing you.
Enjoy your solitude.

snowjobs devoid of any facts

gee - like we need more of that

Apologies- I'm just slammed this week - but really, your last post in reply to my comments is weak.

It's principle error is that at every turn you deny the systmic nature of opression and dispossession,

Maybe you just don't get the dynamics of history, maybe you're in denial, maybe you have a bad, very bad case of "American Exceptionalism."

Maybe this is nothing but labels to you.

I just don't have time now for a fuller exposition.

The problem is in your premises, and adressing that takes time and effort I can't afford at the moment.

I will get back to you though, at the latest by next Monday - hopefully much sooner.

After having much time to think out on the beatiful Texas - Mex border, I remembered some conclusions that I had come to some time ago, and they are namely...

You indy posters on the Aztlan side of things are a bunch of hypocrites, and I do not care about what you think of me. You stand with racist sep group memebers of Mecha and such, and you look at us and try to tell us we are racists for this or that reason ????? Sorry, YOU all are the ones that need questioning, not us. END OF STORY. Goodbye

All that you do means nothing, and only helps us more than you know, but you can not help yourselves and will continue.

You can not stop us on the streets, you can not stop us on the border. All that is happening is we are getting our demands meet. All week long, congress has snapped to it, just like we have wanted all this time, and you all just give us more attention. Thank you.

This is our country, and it is NOT the mythical nation of Atzlan, where racists will kick out all the whites and blacks. Racist and hypocrites are ye all !

You are all propagandized duped usefull idiots that serve your masters. They give you your thoughts...and you obey them.

Also, in just under a year, The Minutemen and saveourstate.org have obtained the attention from the Government/Congress that you all so desire, but can not get. We get it because we represent the stable, sane and hard working people of middle America that are not obsessed with race like you all are. Check this weeks new, and know that our gols are within reach, and some are already come to pass.

See you on the streets and on the border.

Everyone in the Indy/A.N.S.W.E.R./Aztlan/Anarchy is running on herd mentality. I actually feel sorry for the members who aren't hispanic because they either don't realize or deny the probability that if the Aztlan activists and illegals get their way, those non-Hispanic members will get screwed over just like the rest of us. Don't be foolish. Take a break and look at all the perspectives. And I mean credible perspectives. Come to a CCIR meeting or something without your protest signs or cameras. Just come by and listen. It couldn't hurt, right? What are you afraid of? We won't harrass you. You don't even have to tell us who you are. Just say you're there for some awareness and information. Pick up our literature materials, do some research at your own pace, and compare with yours.

While we're waiting for Hmmm to return . . .

Aya, your first claim is that all governments are equal. In your view, any government is as bad as any other government, so I let me note that you've taken the first step to anarchism.

You imply that displaced U.S. farmers resorting to bankruptcy courts are in the same predicament as displaced Mexican farmers. The plight of many family farmers in the U.S. is indeed serious--and here I think of the plight of Black family farmers especially, who's only compensation for centuries of slavery has been systematically stolen by whites, in agribusiness, oil business, and almost any other business. But the answer is _not_ to confront any of the farmers with guns. Deporting or shooting Mexican farm laborers is _not_ going to return a single farm to any U.S. family. But I do hope to see you protecting the South Central farmers.

Finally, you argue that by enforcing the very system that has created the injustices you see, somehow that capitalist system will heal itself. Get a clue--read history. The U.S. has been heading down this path since its conception, that is what capitalism is designed for. It has always been about the accumulation of wealth and power by the elite, and about resistance to that. The capitalists aren't going to invite you to join in their fête, no matter how many Mexicans you round up and deport.

>>If Americans turned thier backs on thier wars or prevented them from using the country as a power base, the wealth would be siphoned out of here faster than a 300 foot tsunami could destroy an island

So we should stay in perpetual war, and turn the U.S. over to the rulers, so we can all have SUVs. Now I begin to see . . .

>>I don't believe that wake up should include mass murder in any form though. Lashing out in that manner just exacerbates the loss of more freedoms worldwide, and will speed up the demise of yet one more democratic society.

!!!!! Whoa, I'm breathing deeply . . . .Yeah, lashing out in mass murder is just so messy, isn't it? So, would mass murder be OK with you if the people left were a bit freer and Amerika survived? That's just what George and Co. are promising with the Iraqi War. Amerika First, all others Last, killing each other for the crumbs the U.S tosses them, right?

>>Any benefit derived by the exploitation of others is at most, coincidental, but not solicited or demanded.

I'm trying to understand this statement in context, but I can't come up with anything but either naiveté or utter denial. Are you arguing that white power, wealth, and domination in the U.S. are sheer coincidence since U.S. law supposedly prohibits discrimination? Are you saying that the benefits to employers of exploiting workers are happenstance?

The solipsism here is deep, Aya. Get over yourself--the world is bigger than you, and you're clever enough to grasp that. What you've said here adds up to no ethics at all--no concern beyond holding onto your back yard and the bit of "freedom" you're granted (which is no freedom at all) in return for your toadyism. What you've said is that overnment doesn't matter, keeping the elite happy does, and if that means war, killing, and turning a blind eye to the survival of other people, so be it.

Fostering death, hatred, bigotry, greed, and exclusion will do none of our children any good. Your children are safe and secure when all the children are safe and secure, and not a moment sooner.

Speaking of, someone posted a good interview with Paul Samuelson about (what else) economics. Things are looking pretty grim, at least according to Samuelson, if we don't get our act together and tax the rich more, redistribute wealth, and repair our trade imbalances (in other words, tool up our people and export more).

This guy is a capitalist, Nobel winner, and a bunch of other things. He's sounding more like Paul Krugman than F. Hayek or the Ayn Rand influenced "capitalist" loonie faction of the Republicrat party.

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/137096.php

Okay that was a pretty deep post by Leslie and I admit I haven't been immersed like that. But what I do know is that there are lots of Americans who oppose illegal immigration and also Bush, war, corporate elites, media elites, you name it. I'm working for an ideal America. Secure the borders, have people immigrate legally in a rate that our infrastructure can allow, and make this nation more self sufficient. We don't necessarily have to be the most productive, richest, or powerful nation. We just want American citizens to have their country and government back. And I want to fight off distractions so that people can be better consumers.

It may sound hopelessly hopeful, but if you want that, just look at the 15 year old Anarchists running around in their Hot Topic gear.

Anyways, why do you put the "k" in "Amerika"? Would it hurt to just refer it to "America"?

Once we have our nation back and people like Bush aren't fucking things up, we can be a prosperous nation. I want to see America and Mexico flourish. I also want to see Mexico go back to the people there, not Vicente Fox and the 18 families who own all the riches. Mexico has plenty of natural resources to be self sufficient as well. If they need the help of Americans, that would be wonderful, but not with bombs or an invasion.

Speaking of which, the invasion in Iraq is disgraceful. I don't know how it can end peacefully, but if there's a way, America should be responsible to repair all the damage it has caused. And that's just damage to the cities, landscape, you name it. As for the lives lost, I don't know how that can be made up for.

There are compassionate Americans who want to secure the borders and keep the families here safe.

"if we don't get our act together and tax the rich more, redistribute wealth, and repair our trade imbalances "

Absolutely. I'm understanding more and more the effects of the corporate elite. American companies that are hardly even American anymore. Outsourcing jobs to other countries and exploiting illegal labor. I've been discussing that with a few fellow advocates of secure borders.

I'm in the process of making a study of this for a complete understanding. It may actually take some of my time away from advocating the security of borders, but I'm still hot on that trail as always.

I was reading some 1950s magazine stories about the farm crisis in America. The cause wasn't just "big business" but changes in farming technology that radically changed farming, making it more scientific and efficient. Technology tends to be capital intensive, especially when it's new; the family farm simply could not compete with a better capitalized, more technologically advanced system of agribusiness.

What followed were basically some 40 years of handouts and welfare for farmers. That's pretty reasonable, IMHO, because the vast gains in farm productivity should have been used to offset the pain those gains caused. That's "socialism" and wealth redistribution -- ideological no-nos here, but when it's for symbols of American Jeffersonian agrarianism, it's acceptable to most people. (In contrast, when the guys being put out of work are industrial workers, many who are people of color, the handouts and loans dry up a lot faster.)

Ultimately, the agribusiness interests will do to farming what all markets do: move toward monopolies or cartels. All such businesses, once they're entrenched, dominate local, state, and national government and bureacracies to make sure that laws are favorable to the monopoly or cartel. They'll own the FDA and USDA the way that the big media own the FCC, and big oil own the President and war department.

Buy organic :-(

I'll try this one more time.
I have posted things that have been deleted in entirety, so those would not show up on any search. So in an effort to see what causes the deletions, I will enter the proof you folks ask for on several different posts, over several days.
Starting here:
You asked who had ever threatened to kill white people in an attempt to take over America.

Jose Angel Gutierrez



Jose Angel Gutierrez, professor, University of Texas, Arlington; founder of La Raza Unida political party; :

"We have an aging white America. . . . They are dying. . . . They are shitting in their pants with fear! I love it!" "We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."

Can any of you really deny that he spoke this way?
Do you still need more from him, and others, or would you like to agree that ther have been threats from activists on both sides of the border, and the issue, and move on to more disputed points?

Just to mention here, that the minuteman site was flooded with death threats which would quite well fall directly inside the parameters you wanted, and I can provide a copy, and link to them, but I chose this one for publication since it has already been widely distributed. If it gets by without deletion, I'll try the others

>>Certainly you've read or heard comments by people who openly advocate for the killng of white people in an effort to overthrow the American government. I doubt that everyone involved subscribes to that mentality, but yet I do not see much finger pointing from our opposition . . .

That is the claim I asked you to prove. You say here that some people doing anti-minuteman work are about overthrowing the U.S. government by killing white people. True, Guitierrez wants to kill white people if "the worst comes to the worst," whatever that means, but as far as I know, he hasn't said a public word about minutemen or even immigrants.

More significantly, it's your interpolation that his desire to see the end of white people equates with overthrowing the U.S. government. So if we got rid of white people, the U.S. would crumble, huh? Let me mull that one over . . .

If the Mexi-scum get rid of all the white people, they will only succeed in establishing Mexico here, north of the border. Where will they go then? Whose civilization will they lach on to then? They have proven their own inability to build a country. Mexico is a hell hole that 40% of Mexicans can't even stand to live in. When they turn America into Mexico, will they swim the Atlantic? I don't think so.

When the coloreds rise up and slaughter the whites, the coloreds will be signing their own death warrant. They cannot build or maintain countries. They can only eat each other as they did before the whites came and taught them table manners and as they will do again when the whites are exterminated.

79 hits - and all from right-wing-nut / conservative sites ^

no real URL that I can find to back that up - noticed you didn't post one either..

just you'all talking about it on your board -

"They have proven their own inability to build a country. Mexico is a hell hole that 40% of Mexicans can't even stand to live in. When they turn America into Mexico, will they swim the Atlantic? I don't think so."

I've had conversations with a couple people on this, one who has really read up on what goes on down there. It's not the people that have the inability. Vincente Fox is screwing up down there and the people need their country back. Just like we need our country back from Bush. They have tons, practically unlimited, natural resources down there they could use. If only they had the time to develop ways to do that without worrying about their lives down there. It may surprise to hear that from someone who supports borders, but there it is.

With that, I still think the borders should be secure because we cannot handle the extra millions of people coming here illegally. We don't know who they are or what they've done in the past. The people of the US don't consent to this and want to do things on their terms. They're hardly getting a dignified life here anyways and we're losing ours, it's a lose-lose situation for us. That's why they need their country back as well. Just about everyone I spoke to desires to send aid to places like Mexico, but there's only so much we can do. They simply need their country back. Vincent Fox cannot continue allowing people to cross over here to avoid a revolution.

no free SOS ad's - that'll cost `ya in dirt..

the appearance of an array of groups with large membership bases is nothing more than a mirage.


The principal funding - millions of dollars in financing, comes from just a few of his allies, far-right foundations like those controlled by the family of Richard Mellon Scaife.


Moreover, tax returns suggest that claims of huge numbers of members — in the case of one group, more than 250,000 — are geometric exaggerations put forward to create a false picture of a "movement" that politicians should pay attention to.



anti-immigration groups have been growing harder- and harder-line since 1998, when they first began working together with open white supremacists. Today, many of their leading officials have joined racist organizations


There's a word in Washington for outfits like these anti-immigration organizations — "astroturf," meaning that they lack any genuine grassroots base.

That such groups, with their increasingly direct links to racist organizations, should have real power in the nation's capital may seem hard to believe.




"Tanton is the puppeteer behind this entire movement," Swartz said. "He is the organizer of a significant amount of its financing, and is both the major recruiter of key personnel and the intellectual leader of the whole network of groups."



1985, FAIR would spin off yet another major Tanton organization — the Center for Immigration Studies, which presented itself as an impartial think tank and later even sought to distance itself from the organization that had birthed it.

Today, the Center regularly dispatches experts to testify on Capitol Hill, and last year it was awarded a six-figure research contract by the U.S. Census Bureau.




Between 1985 and 1994, FAIR accepted $1.2 million from the Pioneer Fund — an outfit once described by eugenics expert Barry Mehler as a "neo-Nazi organization, tied to the Nazi eugenics program in the 1930s, that has never wavered in its commitment to eugenics and ideas of human and racial inferiority and superiority."

When the Pioneer link was disclosed in 1988, Tanton, who was then president of FAIR's board, said he knew nothing of Pioneer's unsavory history. Yet his group continued to accept Pioneer grants for another six years, until 1994.



The memos candidly added what anti-immigration groups would not admit publicly — that the "movement" was "heavily based on a small number of donors."




1998 became a kind of political Rubicon for Tanton and his colleagues. That year, a federal judge found much of Proposition 187 unconstitutional, dealing the anti-immigration movement one of its harshest setbacks ever and igniting a kind of desperation that drove many activists into increasingly extremist politics.

At the same time, Congress was whittling away at the 1996 immigration law, and u.s. political and economic elites generally were supporting immigration.

At least partly as a result of these developments, anti-immigration activists increasingly came to embrace conspiracist ideas like the notion pushed by Spencer and Coe of a Mexican plot to reconquer the American Southwest.

More and more key leaders in the Tanton network seemed to abandon all caution when it came to joining forces with like-minded white supremacist activists.



it was in the interest of the now struggling anti-immigration groups to appear to have large numbers of paid-up members.

The problem was, most of them did not.

First of all, the vast majority of funding for most of these groups comes from just a handful of donors, many of them large, right-wing foundations.


In 2000, the latest year for which tax returns are available, Vinson's American Immigration Control Foundation (AICF) received 90% of its funding from just three contributors.

Five contributions accounted for 82% of U.S. Inc.'s income in the same year.

Fifty-eight percent of FAIR's 2000 donations were provided by six donors.

Fourteen donors account for 94% of the Center for Immigration Studies income for that year.
The narrow funding base of such groups becomes even more apparent in cases like that of FAIR (with a budget of $4.2 million in 2000), which received more than $6 million from a single donor between 1996 and 1999.

U.S. Inc. (whose 2000 budget was $2.3 million) likewise got nearly $5 million in that period from one donor, while three other Tanton-linked organizations were given $1 million to $2 million donations by single donors.

If these kinds of major grants are subtracted from the groups' annual donation totals — and if the membership fees posted on group websites are taken seriously — then the membership claims made by many groups are clearly exaggerated.

For example, after subtracting the three major donations reported on AICF's 2000 tax forms, only $39,386 in income is left. If members pay $15 a year, as the AICF website says, then the group has at most 2,625 members — hardly the 250,000-plus that it claims.

Similarly, ProjectUSA has said it has 3,000 members; but if a donation of $20 — a figure recently suggested on its website — was paid by each donor, then it would have had 841 members.

In the case of FAIR, which claims 75,000 members, the 2000 tax forms suggests a real membership base of about half that.

FAIR's executive director, Dan Stein, defends his numbers, telling the Intelligence Report members pay "a certain amount over a period of 24 months ... like $20" — in other words, $10 a year. FAIR's website says that membership costs $25 a year.

The Foundations
The tax returns reveal another hidden aspect of many anti-immigration groups — their heavy reliance on funding by right-wing foundations.

Tanton's most important funding source for the last two decades may well have been the Scaife family, heirs to the Mellon Bank fortune.

Richard Mellon Scaife, a reclusive figure, has been instrumental in establishing right-wing organizations like the Heritage Foundation and supporting causes like the "Arkansas Project," an effort to dig up dirt on President Clinton.

Scaife family foundations, including those controlled by Scaife's sister, Cordelia May Scaife, provided some $1.4 million to FAIR from 1986-2000.

These foundations, along with private trusts controlled by Scaife family members, have also provided millions of dollars to other anti-immigration groups.

Other foundations that have supported the Tanton network include:


The McConnell Foundation, whose president, Scott McConnell, is on both FAIR and the Center for Immigration Studies' boards;

The Shea Foundation, which also funds the Council of Conservative Citizens; and

The Weeden, Salisbury, Smith Richardson, Blair and Sikes foundations.
Joining the Extremists
Since 1998, the links have been strengthened between key anti-immigration activists and groups and white supremacist organizations – in particular, the Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) and American Renaissance (also known by the name of its parent, the New Century Foundation).

That year, Coe, Spencer and Rick Oltman, FAIR's western regional representative, all came to Cullman, Ala., for a CCC-organized protest against a swelling local population of Mexican workers.

After the protest, Vinson, the leader of the American Immigration Control Foundation, began writing of the perils of immigration for the CCC's paper, the Citizens Informer. Spencer started selling his anti-immigrant videotape in the same tabloid.

In 1999, the CCC hosted a panel on immigration that featured four key anti-immigrant activists — Vinson, Spencer, Population-Environment Balance's Virginia Abernethy and Wayne Lutton, who had begun to edit The Social Contract, a Tanton publication, just a year earlier.

More recently, Lutton joined the editorial board of the Citizens Informer — and also became a trustee of the racist New Century Foundation, parent of American Renaissance magazine.

Barbara Coe of California Coalition for Immigration Reform has spoken at three recent CCC conferences and writes regularly for the Informer.

Brent Nelson, who is on the board of Vinson's AICF, began serving as president of the CCC's Conservative Citizens Foundation and as an adviser to the Informer.

Asked by the Intelligence Report about Lutton — who works out of Tanton's Petoskey, Mich., offices — and other anti-immigration activists who have climbed on board with hate groups, Tanton declined to answer that or a series of other questions faxed to him by the Report at his request.

The questions showed "little evidence of tolerance for differences of opinion," he wrote.

Joining Spencer, who warned his audience that a second Mexican-American war would erupt in 2003, was an array of key extremists:


Mark Weber, a principal of the Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review;

White power web maven, former Klansman and ex-con Don Black;

Gordon Lee Baum, "chief executive officer" of the CCC; and

several members of the neo-Nazi National Alliance.
Neo-Nazis like those of the National Alliance were not among those who lobbied Tancredo and the other politicians during the NumbersUSA event two weeks earlier.

But there were strong indications that the Tanton network and some of its new friends did make a number of key inroads in the halls of Congress.

The white supremacist CCC, for instance, later boasted in print about how its "members were welcomed ... and made a number of stops" during the lobbying trip. Both congressmen and senators were offered copies of its Citizens Informer, the group's newspaper reported.

There is a clear tactic by many pro-immigration advocates that if you label EVERYONE as racist or white supremicist that dares to present a position advocating the transition of government policy to one that would curtail the illegal entry of foriegn nationals into our country and would instead institute a fair, regulated, and enforced LEGAL mechanism for foriegn nationals to enter our country that would accomplish two major goals: make it much safer for foreign nationals to enter this country; and, require the businesses that create the labor pool for foreign nationals to bear the true "costs of doing business" for the manpower they require for their business model to function.

Wanting to end the 'welfare' program for businesses that currently allow them to exploit foreign nationals, exploit consumers, and exploit our government services for their own benefit and profits has absolutely nothing to do with race. I believe there are many, many people in the USA that have absolutely no problem with foreign nationals contributing to our economy and culture, but that have a HUGE problem with being coerced into covering the costs of importing that labor pool so that these business can artificially increase their profit margins.

It is not a racial issue. It is simply unfair, unjust, and wrong ... in addition to being against the law.

There is a "background cosmic radiation" of average citizens that don't belong to an organization, that don't contribute money, that don't protest on street corners. They are just average citizens going to work every day and making dinner for their kids at night ... but they write their representatives, they vote in every election, and they will vote every time to stop the EXTORTION being imposed upon the American public by our government, business leaders, and those that continue to advocate and defend the status quo of keeping that back door open. This is a segment of the American populace that isn't particularly vocal or engaged in proactive organizations or events. But it is just like background cosmic radiation ... it's there, it's largely hidden, and it's everywhere if you just look hard enough.

Actually, I think people like HEX are very, very aware of this, and actually fear that average people become more aware of it. Thus the racial slurring, branding, character assassination, and attempts to prove links to white supremicists or racial exremists for anyone that dares to express a position that threatens the "status quo" on the illegal immigration of foreign nationals. Why? Because people like HEX believe that if they can continually reinforce a perception that marginalizes or vilifies anyone with an opinion contrary to the "status quo", they might hide or distract people from believing there is the largely silent yet vast and powerful cross section of the American public that will VOTE to put an end to our government's immigration policies that translate into extortion being perpetrated against them.

Is this large cross section of the American public anti-immigrant? No. Are they racist? No. Are they activist in their support of political causes? Not really. Do they support charity organizations for the needy? Yes. Are they tired of the involutary subsidies they are forced provide to the businesses that employ foreign nationals illegally? Absolutely. Are they sick and tired of politicians that game the illegal immigration debate for political gains and votes through their pandering to exclusive groups along ethnic lines? Absolutely. Do they vote? Overwhelmingly.

This is what people like HEX fear most ... people just like me.

> vast and powerful

the only thing vast & powerful are your snowjobs



> very aware of this, and actually fear

nice strawman - got any proof ?



> people like HEX believe


A twin strawman, where's the proof II



> large cross section of the American public / Are they tired of / Are they sick and tired of

those boxes are closing in again


so - the 'ol pep talk

okay listen up troops, I'm doing my thing on here now - I hide behind different handles but you'll know me by THE RHETORIC

" This is what people like HEX fear most ... people just like me."

That would imply that Hex actually even thinks about this stuff . He doesn't. Read any number of his posts and he's simply another deluded cyber nerd with enough free time to assault forums with copy and pasted non-sequitors or inane droll quips.

Not to be taken seriously.

Hell of a laugh though.

Not only dies a search under the "kill whitey" "quote allegedly from Jose Angel Gutierrez turn up nothing - but the very idea shows a total ignorance of the Chican@ movement and Gutierrez' role and position in it.

Sure, he always talked a sort of quasi-Aztlan style line. Especially in the early days he _had_ to talk militantly - coming off the sixties and all.

But you gotta understand something.

Jose Angel Gutierrez led the reformist, electoral wing of La Raza Unida Party, while Corky Gonzalez led the radicals.

Gutierrez has _never_ been about anything _but_ elections.

His claim to fame is that he led the effort to gain elected political office in Crystal City, Texas, where the Chican@ population was an overwhelming majority, but which, in the early seventies, was entirely excluded from office.

He's never deviated from that premise - of a militant sounding electoral politics.

He is not now and never has been a revolutionary. He's never advocated revolution much less killing hite people to gain revolutionary ends.

He has never advocated the overthrow of any govt.

I wish he had, but he hasn't. The claim that he has is absolutely unsupportable and demonstrates a profound IGNORANCE of the historical record - an ignorance and shallowness that is for all practical purposes intentional.

This whole attack against Gutierrez is just another unmitigated example of racism - a racism that thinks it can stereotype people with no regard to the actual record or history, with no understanding whatsoever of the cultural or political dynamics of the culture and the People they attack.

White racial hatred needs no reasons - it is a self referential and self justifying revolving door where the hatred of Mexicans (in this case) is all the proof needed to justify even the wildest and most unfounded claim - as long as that claim feeds more hatred.

In sum-

1. Jose Angel Gutierrez never said what these racists ascribe to him - they can't back up the claim with _any_ credible source.

2. Jose Angel Gutierrez is _not_ a revolutionary.

He believes and has fought for Chican@ electoral political power and reform.

For the racists, that in itself is enough reason to hate him and ascribe any wild eyed nonsense to him. They are only interested in one thing- White Power and White Privilege.

Ya Basta.

> doesn't think about this stuff


spoken by someone not even qualified to say.




> any number of his posts


cough up "any number" of examples of delusion - this implies abundant proof so let's see some




> copy and pasted


from mrs. copy & paste herself, and my so hate-filled "non-sequitors or inane droll quips" like icing and sprinklies on top


well aren't we crabby lately



my challenge still stands - keyword your phrases into google and you'll see they are direct copy & pastes, mostly from conservative websites or excerpts from Coulter's/Hannity's books, whereas with me that will NEVER happen.

so little mrs sour grapes couldn't help getting in some "hate sex" jabs for kicks...


(Fresca can't decide if I'am a punching bag or a strawman blow-up doll)


well one thing you two have in common - you've seen his troll antics before , been there, done that. the fear angle is weak to me, but a huge thing in SOS's world so he tends to blow it out of proportion, much like you do.


you two'd be a natural - you can be hatefully afraid and trade barbs at eachother

"1. Jose Angel Gutierrez never said what these racists ascribe to him - they can't back up the claim with _any_ credible source"

Why don't you ask mr Gutierrez if he will own up to the statement?
But once again, I only posted that here because he will not deny making it, and he has been recorded while stating that.
It is apparent that no proof would be suitable for those who wish to believe otherwise.

And there is little real debate coming from the poster Hex. Just attacks and confusing commentaries. Resorting to animation as a defense indicates the desired level of exchanges. I stopped watching cartoons after I realized that pictures do not tell the whole story.

Many of you keep trying to paint all SOS people with the label of Nazism, based solely on the association of only a couple members. Then you point the accusatory finger at us for catagorizing all mexicans as criminals, or worse, based on similar premise.
You claim you are willing to stand up for the downtrodden, defenseless, or stigmatized people, but yet advocate doing that from the relative safety of a masked appearance
And nearly all of you refer to White this, and white that, as if that type of referencing had no racist root.
You cannot debate the issues in depth and to any mutually acceptable conclusion without accepting a mutual framework.

Yes, you are as bad as us, and that does matter.
Pot = kettle
When I stop seeing people who hide themselves while expressing their politics, and start seeing them accept some sort of parameters that would be equally applied on the issues, Then I will start believing and trusting you. Until then, I believe you will just continually end up in a plume of tear gas, or zip tied hand and foot, and your entire message clouded and deflected.

well that one's getting old

so we don't endlessly debate with your bias and LACK OF PROOF on all issues so far in the way you want

we won't play nice in Timmy's sandbox

so he's going to throw wet sand (mud) on us then say we're as muddy as him


we're like him

we hate like him
we're as bad as him
we share the same views as him
some/most/all SOS members
majority of American public
most of us
decent Americans
welcome brothers & sisters

mud everywhere !

If it takes pictures to illustrate it to yourself, then I understand.
At least you are writing it, maybe soon you will get to understand it.
Maybe there is hope for us yet

Who the hell is Timmy?

Here's a link to polls on immigration conducted by organizations that are pretty certifiable as NOT being aligned with any racist organization (CBS, NBC, Wall Street Journal, Gallup, FOX, ABC, New York Times). I think these demonstrate pretty well that there is signficant public support for making illegal immigration much more difficult, and that this public support is not some smoke screen PR campaign by 'racists'. These poll results are aggregated by pollingreport.com, an independent, nonpartisan resource on trends in American public opinion:

http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm