The event could be titled "mass mobilzation" to "confront" the SOS/MMP/ Other Racists rhetoric of ignorance and hate. And this title wouldn't be a false given the images that so many have contributed about the action that took place in Baldwin Park the last Saturday, June 25, 2005. But if you were to soar high above the scene and look very carefully with good set of binoculars, you might see that much more was taking place than the images so far presented might show. You might notice that marching with signs wasn't the only resistance going on. Some of us resisted with politics woven in the fabric of poetry, song, dance, theatre, art and others forms of expression. Some of us thought it a more appropriate response to help build the culture of resistance, so that regular people could seize it for themselves

Among these people was Michael Heralda who taught people a song in their original language, Nauatl. Also contributing were students from Baldwin Park High School who wrote a play about "Pottie", the SOSer who had a bad bottle day, as well as their spoken word called "Letter to Joe Turner". Local SGV Jornaleros ( Day Laborers) spoke up about their struggles and gave poetry of their own. Bands like MEZKLAH and CIUAHTL TONALLI sang songs of resistance and revolution aganist the fear at the root of the SOS hysteria. FUPA Teatro layed down the history of a country made by robbery and lies. Judy Baca and SPARC Mural added their skit and amazing 90ft. mural to help explain how borders try to contain us all to no avail. Rudy Rude and BOOMARANG POLITICS slammed Joe Turner and the Minuteman Project with earth-shattering rhymes, and the militant AZTLAN UNDERGROUND closed the ceremony with its own musical assault on the foolishness of racism and imperialism, reminding everyone that, " We didn't cross the border; the border crossed us" There are many other contributors/conspirators who added their own impressions though they are not named here, but their contribution was felt among us who were open to them.

So you could say that "The Reconquista of Justice, Peace, Liberty and Love" was lost among the more "sensational" stories of arrests and lines of cops. But that position totally ignores the importance that it had to us who agreed from the beginning that it was the best way to deal with a few so called "patriots" who have no ability other than to stir up divisive statements and let the corprate media do the rest. For all the children, teens, mothers, workers, and activists who stayed with us, it was an unforgettable experience.

Photo by D Giron.

Photo by D Giron.

Photo by D Giron.

Photo by D Giron.

Photo by D Giron.

Photo by D Giron.

Photo by D Giron.

Photo by D Giron.

Photo by D Giron.

Photo by D Giron.

Photo by D Giron.

sheesh, thank you!!!

I was beginning to think none of the art stuff
actually happened on saturday, the way all the "indy"
reporters mimicked the mainstream and just presented
images and stories about the more "sensationalized"
aspects of what happened. one of the main points of having a cultural component was to present alternative images to the predictable shouting match protest sign pictures that we all know will show up on the mainstream news, so it was disappointing to see the same thing replicated here, when there was so much amazing, cool stuff happening at the site of the monument.

one thing missing: the Puppets!

does anybody have any pictures of them? if so, could
you post to this thread of indymedia please, so we
have some record of them? we worked really hard and
it's been a little disappointing that nobody has
posted pictures of them anywhere except for one of the
"Four Directions" one. Our other puppet was a tribute honoring Corky Gonzales, Lalo Guerrero, and Gloria Anzaldua. I produced a zine honoring them as well and distributed it at the event; if anybody wants a copy, email me:
raskache-at-yahoo-dot-com.

thanks to everbody who worked to make this happen. I
met some really fantastic people these last several
weeks. I think for those of us who worked so hard and
spent so much time making art, this was an empowering
experience. It wasn't so much about the end result as
it was the process. Through these last several weeks,
I made new friends and got to know old friends better
and gained strength from engaging in the creative
process--we spent time creating something together,
instead of just marching around and yelling at a bunch
of people a block away and then marching around some
more.

that's not to dis on the marchers, though--for me personally it would be disempowering to march, but I'm glad that for others, there was the space to do things their own way. I think the highlight of the day for me was when the marchers came back and Aztlan Underground interrupted their set and the crowd gathered around the band extended a moment of silence and raised fists in solidarity and respect for the marchers.

Every movement needs its marchers and its speakers, but it also needs its artists and cultural component. We have to make sure we all give each other space to do our own thing, and also, respect the contribution that each person makes in her or his own way, whether it is with a bullhorn or a trumpet horn, a protest sign or a painting, a march or a danza.

Thanks for the article, but our name is BOOMERANG POLITICK not boomarang politics. But great documentation.

Thanks to all who made the event happen; on this note, I must say that I am still blown away by the music of Boomerang Politick. Anyone who was there will probably agree that their set was a virtual coup d'etat of the event; WOW! Their Emcee / Vocalist, JG I beleive, layed down some of the nastiest rhymes I've heard, period; bridging the struggles of the Haitian people with the Mexicanos and Latinos of LA and beyond. The music, break-beat science, punk, Hip Hop stands apart from anything I've heard in the past few years. Again, thanks to all who made their participation possible. Are they playing the Farce of July event?

Mil gracias, Tatonka.

To be fair to those who have posted on this so far, they all went down the road to confront the Nazis, and the stories I've heard speak to their bravery, wit and imagination, and to the goodness of their hearts in doing so.

I felt like Raskche - deeply moved, when they returned, with the moment of silence, our fist raised in salute and tribute to their courage.

It was as if this were our village, and our warriors had returned - even as other warriors, the red shrted ones, defended us time and again from the crazed white men seeking to count coup by coming into our village with clubs and flags and masks.

They were all very brave, and we remember those arrested in our prayers.

At was as if the two apparently "separate" aspects of what occurred were really one unified thing - and I believe we all felt that when they returned.

There was another return that I will only touch on, the culmination of our day of ceremony, when Yaotl of Aztlan Underground declared at the opening of their set - "In the Spirit of Toipurinah! " - just as we would declare in other times and ways "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse!"

Our day was a ceremony of war, and a ceremony of healing for the land and for her spirit, and for our Peoples.

It was all that it could be, and all that it needed to be.

Those who were there heard and saw and felt what was needed, received what they needed.

It is hard to write about art, and harder to write about the Spirit.

Thank you for your beautiful images, which embody spirit and struggle, and show the depth of soul and dignity that was present among us.

Tlazocamate.

Noxtinnomecayotzin.

I am very glad that pictures from the celebration at the monument have made their way on to indymedia. Hopefully we can get some more of the puppets posted. I'll try to get a hold of some from people I know that had cameras and get them posted here.

I was one of the marchers that went down the street to confront the racists and I can say that when we walked back and were greeted by the people at the monument with their fists in the air in solidarity it was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen.

I can only speak for myself but I know that we weren't trying to undermine the celebration at all. Like Raska Che said, movements are made up of all different kinds of people that want to express themselves in different ways.

What would be the point of making this world a better place if we couldn't have art. Artists should be at the forefront of any movement for change.

They can go hand in hand with those that chose to fight and even get arrested as some of our brothers and one sister did on Saturday.

http://www.thedarkwind.org/june25.htm

I've got some photographs of some of the things hanging in the trees that I couldn't figure out. The photographs are available at the URL posted here.

One thing, though: I disliked the anti-white sentiments being depicted during this rally and I would expect that fewer lone white guys like me are going to want to stand in solidarity against racism because of it. The Socialist groups and other groups that have a bunch of white people in them will probably still show up, but I was really annoyed by the hostility directed at my white face.

The first anti-hate counter rally in BP, I didn't get any hostility or negative remarks, and the protest signs were positive and didn't brand whites as "European invaiders." BNP1 had a much more positive message than BP2.

While I was watching the skit taking place with the microphone, I was getting hostile looks from the people around me. Either my Right Guard had stopped working or they were annoyed with my white face.

Still, 99% of the people there were upbeat, friendly, and focused on oppoing the racists. Yet still, I could wish that the anti-white sentiment didn't exist at all.

http://www.thedarkwind.org/june25.htm

Yes! If you missed Boomerang Politick, you must get out to see them. They blew the place apart. I only wish they played more on saturday--I was waiting for them to kick some more of that drum n bass sound and JG lays down some dope French rapping. I saw them a week before BP2 at East Side Cafe and invited them to play because I was so floored by their sound and their message. they are on the bill for Farce of July, get out and show your support. and watch for these guys in the future, they are the real shit! the RATM of the zeroes???

how many comments like 'mexidirtbag' and 'jesse jackoff' do we have to tolerate?

this website is being turned into a trashbin for racist filth by the sos crowd.

what gives?

yes, i know, "free speech."

that's fine for you - free speech doesn't include advocacy of violence against your people.

advocacy by gun toting mexican hunters and literal nazis.

THE BLATANT HOMOPHOBIA

I'm not one of the editors, but I help out a little each day to "hide" posts, and try to scrub some. The main problem (shared by many IMCs) is that the posts go up without moderation, and bad ones are "hidden" after the fact.

The reason for this is primarily legal. It's the easist way for the organization to avoid liability, because it acts as an "open forum." I'm not sure what the case law is anymore, but a while back, Compuserve was found liable because they approved and edited posts. (It has probably changed.)

Back to volunteering. The collective used to meet (and probably still meets) at Rocotitlan in Hollywood, on the first and thrid Saturdays at 11am. Double check on that.

Drop a note to info@la.indymedia.org for more info.

You know, John, I am really _tired_ of complaining about white people on the left. _Really_ tired.

I just haven't wanted to give up on them. But the overwhelming majority are unresponsive and a number are downright cruel in their unresponsiveness.

A whole lot of the right wing ideology about racism has seeped in on the left and among left-liberals.

Marxists and socialists reduce most things to class - not that class isn't highly relevant, just that racism doesn't reduce to that.

Really, leaving aside the "progressive" middle class, how can the alleged "proletariat" of a colonizer nation - a white settler state, actually ally itself with the oppressed nation whose land it occupies and whose people it must degrade to assure its own social status and well being?

I suppose it's really not possible.

I for one, am tired of spitting in the wind.

With respect to Indymedia, it can't be any different . Perhaps we need an Indymedia de Aztlan .

The efforts you make personally are appreciated, and the Indymedia concept is basically a good one.

I understand your point about legalities, and the lack of people to monitor all this.

But to get people for such a task requires consciousness in the first place, and since 70% of LA is peoples of color, there is a limited pool of workers from the start - if you are largely a white group.

The consciousness comes first, if , sad to say, it ever comes at all.

> how many comments like 'mexidirtbag' and 'jesse
> jackoff' do we have to tolerate?

How about all of it? We _want_ to allow such people to express and expose what it is they actually stand for, don't we? Allowing them a free and open channel to express what it is they actually stand for in their own words is _exactly_ what those of us who oppose such people want to see more of.

> THE BLATANT HOMOPHOBIA

That's also something that needs to be exposed in their own words. Antiu-women, anti-gay, anti-brown skin is all tied hand-in-hand among those who harbor such ideologies.

They sop it up from their parents all in one lump and then pass it along to _their_ sons.

The recent coverage on anti-immigrant groups has caused a spike in racist comments and postings. The staff is unpaid and sometimes postings by trolls stay up for awhile before they are noticed. Overtly racist comments are hidden immediately when noticed.

The LA-IMC collective is diverse in its membership, and is always working to expand its diversity to be inclusive of all the communities of Los Angeles. With open publishing the content of the site is whatever the community posts. Stories with lots of traffic are promoted to the front page. Special categories also have pages. Perhaps the addition of a new category is what is needed to address Murrieta's concerns.

For suggestions please email to:

info@la.indymedia.org

There are also meetings which are open to the public. Please look for an announcement for the next meeting.

SOS claims they aren't racist but ever since their supporters started visiting indymedia there has been lots of racism spewed by their supporters on the message boards here... It's really disgusting.

It's a volatile situation, and many interested party's are veiwing all the boards that are discussing the influx of mass illegal immigration from our southern borders.
With a blantant disregard for the Indigenos Californians.. So of course, many fringe groups on both sides are going to air their views under an anonymous proxy.. But the core people I've seen with SOS that stand in the middle waving American flags are generally straight forward and concerned citizens..

How do you know they are straightforward and concerned citizens, because they are not wear sheets?

Your assumption is as faulty as CC's, except CC didn't not say SOS members, he said SOS supporters. All you need to do is look at the postings on their site to see that is it a fact that they are attracting a quite undesireable element and some outright nazis. To assume that they only buzz the group and do not join is awfully naive.

Some SOS members are probably straight-forward American citizens who think they are doing what they can to defend the U.S. from "invading hordes of disease infected vermin" (SOS rhetoric).

But my point, and maybe the sarcasm was lost, is that for a group like SOS that claims they don't have a racist message they sure have lots of supporters that "under an anonymous proxy" spew disgusting racist views.

The SOS counter-protestors can legitimately say that they are fighting for a better world and even some SOS with their limited world view can say that they want to make the world a better place...

but the racists are simply haters and dividers that just want to tear things down and as far as I'm concerned I'm really not interested in hearing what they have to say and I tend to scroll past posts made by obvious racists and I suspect other do as well..

You can find extremists in any movement conservative or liberal, particularly if you are lazy and want to simply label people as an easy means of avoiding really thinking about what is right or wrong with their positions.

I'm trying hard to look at both sides here. Sure, the MM and SOS positions will also attract a 'fringe' element that focus too much on the ethnic aspects of the anti-illegal immigration argument. If you look at the pro-immigration forces, you'll also find 'fringe' elements of socialists, one-world-order liberals, and Azteca Reconquistas that actually believe in the eventual secession of the American SouthWest into a Latino independent state. Both are of those 'fringe' groups are extreme, and both have elements of racial division.

There are moderates in both groups that aren't racists, and that have rational positions on trying to deal with REAL problems in our society ... today's problems ... not trying to get retribution for Cortez' landing in 1524, or the Crusades of the 1200's, or the Moorish conquest of Spain in 711.

Today we have real problems induced by the unlimited flow of illegal immigration across our borders. While pro-immigration advocates may support this status quo on grounds of culture, race, Azteca, world-without-borders, whatever ... they need to recognize that the people that allow this to happen are not necessarily their 'friends'. Who allows this? Our government. But WHY does our government support this? Because it directly benefits the business lobby by providing below-market unskilled labor that can be easily exploited and replaced without having to carry the cost burden of hiring a legitimate worker. This means they can be your friends today, but your enemies tomorrow ... as soon as they figure out that our government's lax enforcement of illegal border crossings means that the business lobby can freely import ANY foreign national in their quest for the cheapest possible labor pool. Today, human smuggling is being done by opportunists and criminal gangs ... just wait until the smuggling is actually sponsored and organized by the companies themselves. Next thing you'll see are Pakistanis in the meat packing plants of the mid-west that were smuggled into Mexico via professional 'coyotes', then on into the US. Then the Latino pro-immigration crowd is going to SCREAM about the unfairness of letting "these people" into "our country" unchecked and in violation of our immigration laws. Wait. Sound familiar?

That's because unchecked illegal immigration IS unfair, unjust, and preferential in it's very nature, regardless of race or culture. There should be a guest worker visa program so that willing workers from Mexico can take an air conditioned bus from TJ to LA for a real job instead of risking their lives in the desert. But that also requires secure verification of their work visa, meaning a biometric SSID verification for ALL workers ... migrants, legal residents, and US citizens alike. It requires REAL border enforcement. And most importantly it requires AGGRESSIVE employer sanctions and enforcement so we can remove the incentives for the business lobby to coerce our political system to bypass our laws to create the grey labor market ... and force the employers to level the playing field where they have to absorb the costs of payroll taxes, health care, etc., uniformly regardless of whether an employee is a guest worker or a US citizen.

I don't care about the race or ethnic background of illegal aliens. I care that our current government's policies are costing US tax payers $65 Billion/year; I care that my children's classrooms are overflowing and lacking critical resources because the schools can't keep up with the budgets, teachers, or classrooms; I care that my local emergency rooms have become free clinics for the uninsured and are imploding financially under the burden while employers pocket their profits; I care that our jails are crowed to overflowing with large percentages of the available space being taken up with illegal alien criminals ... causing catch-and-release of real criminals back onto our streets because of the lack of space; I care that there are large metropolitan areas that are the dangerous domains of violent gangs that burden their communities with senseless violence ... usually deadly violence acted out upon their own ethnic group.

I want our government to take away the financial and political incentives for businesses and politicians to continue to support this self-serving, self-promoting, pandering grey market and force immigration of foreign nationals as a labor pool out into the light, where that labor pool is a level playing field for EVERYONE of ANY race, and where the costs associated with that labor pool are asorbed by the people wishing to benefit from it ... instead of the current non-system where the costs are pushed onto the unwilling American taxpayers as a hidden subsidy.

Did I say anything racist? The lazy may call this commentary racist. Someone may disagree with my position ... but if they are earnest, they will look at these REAL problems and promote their own REAL solutions.

The status quo is not a solution ... and forces are marshalling on both sides to change the status quo.

I agree with some of the positions that Tim Duncan made. I agree that our government, which is really run by big capitalists, wants a pool of cheap labor. And I realize that those of us that defend the rights of undocumented workers are actually doing the bidding in an indirect way for big capitalism.

I can say that the reason I defend undocumented workers is because I don’t choose the blame the migrant workers for the problems created by a system based on inequality. Attacks of “inferior cultures”, “vermin”, and “invading hordes” show me that SOS chooses to blame them.

The Mexican people should rise up and overthrow the ruling oligarchy but if that happened I bet Bush would send in the Marines to quell the revolution. The interests of the ruling class aren’t the same as those of the American people. If conditions were better in Mexico they would improve here too. Why wouldn’t Bush support a revolution in Mexico then?

Undocumented workers DO generate money for the economy and big profits for the owners. The anti-illegal immigration side can show statistics that show the negative costs of the undocumented. But the pro-side can show statistics as well that show the opposite.

School and hospitals go under-funded and I agree that that is a problem. But realize that there are 87 billionaires in California. These riches are generated by the labor of workers, including undocumented ones. Why is the product of our labor (money) not being put to use where we need it (hospitals, schools, etc.)

My point is that the system of inequality should be addressed and changed. We shouldn’t be attacking our fellow humans who are also suffering under the same system.

The underclass of unskilled, migrant workers has nearly always been a facet of American capitalism. Without them the ruling class would have to deal with an aggressive, demanding work force that would want more pay, benefits, vacation time instead of what we have now which is an American work force living in fear of layoffs, rising health care costs and unemployment.

The government will never close the borders. They understand capitalism too well. The fundamentals of the system need to change.

Chop Chop ... excellent response. You and I may have different perspectives on the costs and benefits of illegal immigration, but in the end we agree on the source of the problem. And we're debating this without labels.

I think we agree here that if you want to find the real promoters of our current non-system, just follow the money: the business leaders that pocket profits by the extortion of subsidies from American public; and the political leaders that want big business $$$ contributions and to maintain their own strangle-hold on political power by pandering to the Latino voting bloc. We all pay for THEIR profits and power ... you, me, even the illegal immigrants in their sub-standard pay and work conditions.

I liked your comments on trying to solve the decades-old root problems in Mexican economy, class stratification, and broken political process. But understand what the Mexican politicians understand so well: the mass migration of the economically and politically disenfranchised out of Mexico into the US means the problem WILL NEVER be solved. With our current broken immigration policies, it is simply far easier for illegal aliens to come to the US than it is for them to stay and try to change these fundamental problems in Mexico. And, the Mexican political and business elite understand that their active support for the exporting of millions of the disenfrancised mean they don't need to worry about those millions staying and becoming a political or cultural force for change. The status quo and class stratification is maintained because the people most desperate for change leave. What do you think would happen if the estimated 18 million illegal immigrants residing in the US took up actively demonstrating in Mexico for a fundamental shift in political and economic power? You think there's inequality here ... it's nothing compared to the class stratification in Mexico. The fact that these immigrants voted with their feet by treking to the US is part of the problem ... and the Mexican power brokers are very, very thankful to Bush and his Business lobby buddies for providing the magnet and leaving the door unlocked.

The illegal immigrants are not themselves THE problem ... they are a part of the problem in that their act of fleeing Mexico reduces the incentive for change there, but they're only human, doing what is easier. They are surviving. And they are part of the problem in that they place a cost burden on our society well beyond what would be expected if we had a real, working, well-regulated guest worker system. But they are not the ROOT problem. If there were a REAL guest worker program (without amnesty for breaking our laws in the past) that could NOT be circumvented by employer or migrant worker ... it would force a level playing field. Employers would be FORCED to carry the costs of the labor they used ... US Citizens or imported ... instead of defaulting to the American public to involutarily subsidize their profits or degrading our public services. Mexican migrants could come to jobs ready to accept them ... legally. People would stop treking across the desert illegally ... because there wouldn't be any jobs for ILLEGAL migrants, so the only people the Border Patrol would find out in desert would be drug runners and criminals. The border would become enforcable. And politicians would stop trying to work so hard at pandering and growing the size of an ethnic voting bloc through illegal population growth and instead work hard at taking righteous positions on issues that were supported by LEGAL voters that cuts across ALL ethnicities.

I think everyone would agree that migrant workers in the form of illegal aliens do generate additional economic activity. The question is whether the benefits of that economic activity outweight the costs, as well as who is benefiting and who is shouldering the bulk of the costs.

I take the Bears Sterns study as a fairly objective view for one simple reason: Bears Sterns is an investment banking firm with a vested interest in funneling their money into areas that will produce more money. If they felt illegal immigration was a net PLUS for the economy ... they would be positively energetic in promoting an economic trend that meant more profits for their investors. The Bears Sterns study wasn't funded by either conservative think tank or liberal idealists. It was formulated by people focused on one thing: is illegal immigration a boon or a drain on the economy ... so they can understand how it affects their investment strategies.

They demonstrated believably that there is a net $65 Billion per year cost to our economy to support the estimated 18 Million illegal immigrants residing here. In order to offset this, you would first have to find out what percentage of jobs and economic activity would simply not exist if not for the presence of illegal immigirants, i.e., only those businesses that would be unable to fill those jobs with legal residents to maintain their contribution to the economy; and, you would have to figure out how much those business have increased the GDP such that ancillary LEGITIMATE activity that generates tax revenues ... sales tax, income tax, property tax, etc., ... offsets the $65 Billion by putting more money into the state and federal treasuries than is taken out to cover the $65B. Note this doesn't include the $15 Billion in annual remittances back to Mexico that are not re-injected into the US economy through consumer spending.

Obviously this is incredibly hard to figure out, even if someone were objective (and smart enough) ... and it's wide open to manipulation if that person were less than objective and has an agenda.

I'm no expert in the dynamics of economic activity ... but if I had to take a wild guess, maybe you'd have to prove that the employment of illegal immigrants for jobs that WOULD NOT otherwise be performed by legal residents would have to generate at least a net increase of 2-3 times the $65 B in the real general GDP growth to offset the costs in providing social services and lost tax revenues. That would be close to $200 Billion per year of economic activity that would have to be tied directly to illegal immigrant employment.

Anyone got some believable, objective numbers, preferable from a source that is in the business of making a living from analyzing the costs & benefits of economic activity?

Tim, thanks again for your reasoned and well thought out analysis. I appreciate your points and you have made me think, which is always a good thing and not easy to do...

...just ask my wife!

Just a single point - but still very important.

Your equating the KKK with the most radical of your opposition is unfair. The KKK were not only a racist, fascist group, but historically, were given a "pass" by the powers to terrorize and kill minorities. They wore hoods because some of their members were prominent citizens in the local power structure.

The most radical elements of your opposition come from a long tradition of people who get beat up by the state, were deliberately undereducated, and restricted from full participation in society.

To say that their race-centered ideas are all equivalently racist is not fair, and ignores many decades of history.

I believe the SOS and MMP are groups with solutions, looking for the specific problems to which they can be applied. Their solution is the ejection of Mexican nationals and the building of a high-security zone at the Mexican border.

That's my gut feeling on this.

That said, I believe that the economic impacts of immigrants with status, undocumented immigrants without status, and work visas should be discussed and debated.

I'm unabashedly pro immigrant. I even like immigrants who, if they knew my politics, would report me to the FBI. I believe that this country was built on immigration. I also believe that Mexicans and Canadians should continue to have higher immigration quotas than other people.

I also believe that our current immigration policy is not realistic. We set the bar pretty high -- so high that your typical American would not be allowed into this country, were he on the other side. This excludes a lot of people from migrating here, and forces them into the underground. This, more than anything else, is the cause of the problem. The larger root issues also matter, of course, but, the issue of status -- illegal versus legal -- originates in our immigration laws.

The net economic effect of a person is difficult, if not impossible, to calculate, if you're trying to measure everyone at once. I think in calculating the costs of "illegal immigrants" different analysts are making an error by grouping all "illegal immigrants" together. They have different economic behaviors, ranging from the lone "sojurner" to those who have every intention of staying forever, or at least a very long time.

I think that the person who intends to settle down in America is an asset, regardless of status. They will just behave differently, and have some long-term goals to become integrated permanently. Their kids will be the next generation of Americans. To measure their economic impact, you have to forecast for a few decades.

Conversely, I think the person who comes temporarily to work is not an asset. While I believe that they have a human right to migrate and seek work, ultimately, they're going to be engaged in short-term strategies of survival and money-making. To measure their economic impact, you can do it moment-by-moment.

I think the long-term worker who sends money back to Mexico is the enigma. If it's only a couple hundred dollars a month, I cannot see it being a huge impact. It's a small fraction of their pay, and an even smaller fraction of their productive output. The economic effects would be felt primarily by the worker and his or her family, then secondarily by the community in the form of reduced spending.

Our current immigration policy penalizes the ones who want to stay, but not the ones who want to leave.

I thought I remembered hearing you say you were a "liberal".

Depends on how I feel that day. Some days, I'm a petit bourgeois liberal, and other days, I'm an anarchist. Sometimes, it's anarcho socialist or communist (or whatever it's called now) and other times, more of a pacifist anarchist (those are pretty good days). Everyone once in a blue moon, I'm a 'green anarchist". But GA, sometimes feels like liberal ecologist politics, or "hippyshit compost making culture".

I'm not a label. Labels should be based on what we do.

John, I was aware that I've said anything about the KKK in any of my postings, so I'm unsure where your reference comes from. I agree, what the KKK once was in the deep south with it's connections to law enforcement and political systems was criminal. While still loathsome, for the most part, groups like the KKK have been severely 'defanged' over the past forty years of advancement in civil rights.

As loathsome as the KKK was and is, it doesn't justify extremism and fanaticism from other opposing groups ... it's all just wrong regardless of where it originates.

As I've said before, I also am pro-immigration. But our current system is severely broken, allowing it to be 'played' by the business and political interests. I want a system that can't be 'played' and where costs cannot be involuntarily deferred onto the American public.

I'll make this a little more personal: I don't resent immigrants. I grew up on the Mexican border in a community that was 99.9% Latino, spent A LOT of time in Mexicali, and gave food and water to any illegal alien that knocked on my door. I grew up immersed in the Mexican culture and was considered an "adoptive son" of several Mexican families.

But, this is what I do resent:

I resent a SYSTEM where I am coerced and extorted into providing my tax dollars to subsidize the businesses and politicians who gain profits and political power by pushing the costs and degradation of our social services onto people like me.

I resent that when I take my son to the emergency room with a broken foot, that it takes five hours to see a doctor while he sits there in pain because the emergency room waiting room is FLOODED out onto the sidewalk with uninsured illegal aliens seeking simple and basic medical care for common colds that should be happening in a doctors office paid for by the businesses that employ them.

I resent that my children's schools can't provide enough classrooms, qualified teachers, books, or other resources to keep up with the tidal wave of children coming into our school system. My son's Spanish 1 class his freshman year had 7 different teachers in six months, only one of which had a teaching credential. His high school had to erect 25 portable classrooms to deal with the flood of students being bused in from Santa Ana ... because the Santa Ana schools had already used up all their available space with portable classrooms. And it's this way everywhere you go in SoCal. I don't resent the children, I resent a SYSTEM that is based upon providing an educational service to tax-paying legal residents, and is incapable of responding to the burden placed upon it by illegal immigration.

I'm not resentful of the immigrants ... I'm resentful of the SYSTEM that pushes the costs and the degradation of the services onto tax-paying, law abiding citizens like me. If businesses MUST have the labor pool presented by illegal immigrants ... let THEM pay the righteous costs associated with importing and utilizing that labor pool. IF THIS WAS CHANGED the "migrant worker" could just go see a regular doctor instead of going to the emergency room for a cold fever. Our schools would get the additional revenues needed to keep up with growth in the student population. If that pushes the price of some goods and services up 3%-5%, fine by me, because I can at least then CHOOSE where and how I spend my money and which businesses I choose to subsidize ... I can vote with my dollar.

Here's the rub ... people can beat their chests about 'racists', 'bigots', 'white supremacists', etc., whenever there's talk about groups like the MM or SOS ... but that's really a distraction because those 'labels' just hide the fact that there's a huge number of common, law-abiding, non-racial biased people prepared to force change upon our elected officials at the ballot box. The real 'groundswell' the MECHA folks need to worry about isn't white supremacists ... it is people like me. I'm not a racist or a bigot. I believe in and support our nation's immigrant heritage. I'm highly respectful of varying cultures. But, I also believe in our nation's heritage in the democratic rule of law, and that NO ONE is ABOVE the law ... in particular the business interests that violate our nation's labor laws and the politicians that actively choose to formulate policies that ignore our laws for their own personal gain.

In this country, if a law is deemed 'wrong', 'bad', or 'discriminating' it is changed to reflect the will of the people while honing to the core values and rights established by our constitution ... it is NOT our heritage that a group of individuals are permitted to selectively circumvent or ignore our laws for personal gain.

I should have said the National Vanguard. I just had the KKK on my mind, as my point was that these two political positions come from two entirely different historical pasts.

The past certainly doesn't justify the present, but, your interpretation of the present ignores the past.

Historically, there have always been nationalist movements in America by the oppressed people, seeking to withdraw from mainstream society. The most famous of these was the United Negro Improvement Association, headed by Marcus Garvey.

These are ideologies created from frustration with the status quo. They advocate a rejection of America, precisely because America has failed for so many of their constituents. That's very different from white separatist groups, which generally advocate for separation to maintain white domination over political and social power.

I think you have to interpret what they say, and read between the lines.

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As far as hospital waits: believe me, I know. I've been to all kinds of hospitals, and some of them have long waits. I know that County here is 20 hours or more for noncritical injuries. (I've been to the ER, btw, and they didn't have too many folks with colds there. They had broken bones and weird looking bulges and rashes.)

The problem of health insurance isn't just a problem caused by "illegal immigrants". There are some 45 million uninsured Americans. Around 1/5th of America lacks health insurance. The health care reality has changed, and there's less public health care available, while there are more workers who have a hard time affording insurance.

At the same time, health care costs are rising because of labor shortages. In case you haven't noticed, many of our doctors and nurses are from the Philippines and India. Even with these immigrants, we're short-staffed. Salaries for these professions keeps rising.

People are living longer. Today, it's normal for people to live past 75 years, well into their 80s. So the demand will keep rising.

The most direct solution is to increase health-care education, to make a new generation of doctors and nurses.

Also, I don't know what district you're in, but each one is different. LAUSD has small classes. Maybe not great schools, but, I don't think it's really the "illegals" fault things there suck. They sucked back in the 70s too. Dropout rates are always around 50 to 60 percent among African Americans and Latinos, legal or not.

In fact, my teacher friends say that the immigrants seem to do better than the Americans. (They don't ask about status, but when some student is working at McDonalds instead of going to colleges they got into... you know something's up.)

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I'm not opposed to making the employers pay for the costs of using the underground labor. The existing laws established in 1986 are never enforced. Even when it was enforced, the fines were around $5,000 which is nothing compared to what you gain by taking the risk.

The fines first need to be enforced. They need to be large enough to make the enforcement work self-sustaining. That is, they must cover the costs of enforcement, plus the social costs. I'd guesstimate that would be around $10,000 per violation, if you get most of the violators. If that doesn't prove sufficient deterrence, it could be increased, with surplus funds going back into worker education projects to reduce overall labor costs.

Essentially, the risk of hiring unlawfully need to be greater than the cost of hiring legit workers.

This direction in policy is not being pursued by SOS MMP. I heard Gilchrist is going in this direction, but, we'll see. He's more in the FAIR/CCIR direction. I'll assume SOS is headed that way too.

The FAIR/CCIR's policy direction is screwed up. They're trying to pass a law denying normal health care to the undocumented. This is very risky, because if a lot of people are left to get sick, you're going to see increases in TB and other diseases.

The general idea of creating two legal classes of people in the country, which is the conventional wisdom of the CCIR and other anti-immigration groups advocates, is risky -- it's penny wise and pound foolish. Not only that: it'll encourage businesses to hire *more* undocumented workers, because these workers would be more desperate, and work longer for less to make enough money.

That CCIR policy slakes the peoples thirst for revenge, and can encourage more exploitation. I wouldn't be surprised if it had some business backing.

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Why is SOS called "racist"? They are holding demonstrations against "la reconquista". Because whoever does the SOS website is obsessed with MEChA and this reconquest idea.

Others have gone into far more detail about this. I think even Andy Ramirez, another anti-illegal-immigrant activist, didn't support the SOS monument protest. If you cannot understand why SOS is called "racist," well, you need to really look at what SOS is doing. You have to wonder why it is that the handful of Latino people on the SOS boards are ignored when they complain about the anti-Mexican atmosphere, and express reservations about the BP protest? Could it be that the white majority there more readily tolerate anti-Mexican racism, because it doesn't hurt them?

it's not about who you are, Tim, but the group.

(I said the exact same thing to Steve Brow before BP. I'm probably shouting into the wind.)

(I also said back then that the SOS will become a platform for fascist organizing efforts. Guess what? "Told you so." The Victorville protest served as a platform to help organize several National Vanguard people who hadn't ever met before.)