Generally speaking, it is a good day when NO ONE gets hurt.. I mean that for both sides. Actually, I rather enjoy speaking to the 'other side' if you will, if it is a reasonable discussion, and we keep our passions in check. It is hard to do sometimes. And, for some folks, it seems harder than for others.

The numbers I counted were as follows...about 50 SOS/CCIR and others. perhaps 60 at the peak. Media of course wandered about, so it was a challenge to keep recounting while discounting them.

400 goons (counterprotesting types) in eventually 2 groups. One my the monument, and one down by the corner of Pacific and Downing. I assume that the PD shut off the valve at some point as the CP's approched our location, hence a cut off, and then 2 groups. As per my prediction, the PD was not very interested in letting a large group face us again. They let a smaller group face us of about 50, but when a large group, perhpaps 150 arrived, they sent the 50 to join them. They CP's were not allowed in our proximity. Bogus really, since I think it would have been ok to let us at least face off to some extent. I get the feeling that the BP PD and powers that be are not interested in letting us do so for many reasons, including safety. I wont tip my hand on the other reasons...sorry folks, every one has trade secrets ! ;)

Of particular interest to me today were the lime green hatted ambulance chasers. Fist of all, let me say that new hats are in order. Lime green is terrible. It just does not do even the attractive ones justice out there. Belive it or not , fashion is important out there! I choose only hats that maximize my already very sexy presence. Second, it is comical to me that at least 6 chasers decied to join the ranks of the sometimes babling crowd. Do not get me wrong, there are some good folks on your side, and I would really like to talk to some of you. But some of you all , i mean really! Can you at least not lump us all into this 'racist hate monger' camp ? I oppose only illegal immigration. That does not make me by default a racist just becuzz you all feel that there should be no border. Think it thru for a change, and try to be more reasonable. I would love a 'world without borders', but this is just pie in the sky as long as there are those that would come into the USA and just wipe us all out. You all would be screaming for help if we opened up this country to all that would come here...it would be complete chaos, even if only those that didnt want to destroy this place came here. Do not any of you believe that without the militray protecting us, that we would be over-run by those that want our country for themselves, and do not have any intention of sharing it? So, it is just amazing that they law boys and girls decide to be there for a group that has so many thugs in it.

Regarding who we call Marvin the Martian becuzz of his resembling the warner brothers character in the bugs bunny cartoons. He always wears a black riot helmet, big protective shades, and carries a black and red 'sandinista? flag.... we chanted for his appearance. We saw him coming to our local early, but then no Marvin. Eventually , we looked behind us, and there he was ! The police would not let him thru. I moved quickly to ask them to let him in, becuzz without him, it is just not the same! We really enjoy his antics. Well, all of a sudden, he is on the ground being arrested ! Bogus. I assume it was for non-compli ? Anyone knows , plz let me know... I suggested a 'free Marvin' vigil at the PD, but everyone was hungry at that point , and wanted to go home too. Does anyone know 'Marvin's' real first name ?

Ok, so the police presence was staggering, I am sure you agree. Arrests were made of people that decided to smeak thru the train track area. Another arrest was made when someone tried to smeak around a police line. I am never big on arbitrary arrests that are trivial in nature. We did chant various things when one guy was dragged off in front of us...then again dragged the other direction in front of us! What a humiliating experience for him! Anyway, he looked rather thugish, so we really did not have much sympathy. Sorry, many of you would have done the same! Not that this justifies anything, but it was very fun to chant 'ole, ole, ole, ole, go home...go home' to one on your side for a change!

It is not even a question that local biz suffered. Some even were closed for the day on what was there busiest day. Get this one thing straight : this is the fault of the dunce mayor Lazano, and his goons. He said at first, on film , that he would like to see the racist lang on the monument come down, and then when he saw that he had no support , he pulls a John Kerry. Well, he is getting what he deseves now! Local biz owners will fry him for this. Can you imagine... streets shut down for hours. Major intesections closed, close to 200 LEO and ghetto birds deployed, and all they do is issue a 'resolution' stating the it stays! Truely amazing. Politickin at its finest! A true thug of a mayor interested in his own advancement..

You all need to get rid of him before he tries something else like the lame permit bit. I know you all hate that like we do, so on one thing we very much agree on.

I , like most of the others there today, live in the county of Los Angeles. We are no more 'outsiders' than most of you. I grew up on these streets and they are mine also. I am very comfortable on them. Its a glove like fit for me.

We are not going anywhere. We will continue are fight against all forms of racism and double standards. Yes, the National Vangaurd showed up. Is there really anything we can do about it ? We gave them a hard time, and they moved away from us as much as they could. The police would not let them go anywhere , and we are under the impression that there is not much we can do to make them leave. They have their rights i assume , just like you all do, and we all do. Once again, like is stated on the www.saveourstate.org web site, we reject ALL reacist/sep orgs and their various disgusting doctrines. I am not white, and so they reject me from joining their ranks, even if I werer to express an interest. That SICKENS me. I am offended by those that take in consideration race over character, by those that feel the way one is born is of merit. It is not over any merit. Especially sickening is the thought that since my wife is white , that they would accept her and not me! I do not think I would mind it if they wanted to join our side on this cause if they just kept there lame racism to themselves and just went out there as American. They just can not seem to do this, and they come with shirts on that have their web site on it , and even pass out their hate fliers. Sigh....we are doing all we feel we can to discouage them, and when I see them there, i cringe and start to boil becuzz they just can not be civil about it. They just spew out the racism.

This is not a complete reporting. Just to tired for that right now.

It's an interesting contrast to watch these racists report their wishful thinking and Republican IQ out where normal people can read them. No mention of the white supremists among them, no evidence that anyone was arrested, and the usual hate spew against unseen but powerful enemies that threaten the American Way of Life.

Interesting.

It's also interesting to see them claim they had 50 white supremists among them once again. Since they were penned up by the police on their own little patch of sidewalk, it's impossible for the good guys to determine their number with any degree of accuracy, of course, but 30 to 40 just like last time is probably more accurate, despite National Vanguard and Storm Front and others filling out their indistinguishable ranks.

I look at these right wing kook rants in the spirit of anthropology. Specifically, as a scientist examining knuck-dragging neanderthals whose ideologies of hatred, bigotry, and of a white Master Race as being obsolete and something that has been thankfully dying out slowly with each new generation of Americans.

And maybe that's their problem. These scumbags are constantly spewing about how their children are going to grow up in a non-white America and they're constantly spewing about how that unavoidable eventuality is an attack on the American family and on American "culture," whatever that is. As these racists grow older, maybe they're becoming more and more desperate, seeing that the coming generations don't harbor the abject hatred of non-whites that they do -- at least not to the _degree_ that they do (whether overtly or secretly. Makes no different. Children can always see straight through their own parents easily.)

Any way, thanks for posting your spew, SOSMM clown. It's appreciated. I appreciate it. It reconfirms everything that's known about you clowns, right down to your average Republican IQs. Thanks! }:-}

We need to raise the wages of our client countries (duh- who do you think really runs Old Mexico anyway-) to diminish the the incentive to endure the ordeal that most of these people go though to come here. Our businesses ( the little ones, at least) are already competing with slave wages overseas in companies that we subsidized through NAFTA, with our taxes so they fight to keep the undocumented economic refuges at their meager employ.
So the real culprit of illegal immigration is NAFTA, Son of NAFTA, Bride of NAFTA, Son of the Bride...
Anyway, why is so hard to bring this little connection up?
All this rage should focus at NAFTA and merge to break the toe off the boot we give to every asshole who voted for it.

Thanks D (little bo peep), for your post. I think it's sad that you are so passionate about a message that attracts the National Vanguard. You know what? You guys stood there with them and that's that. You've personally said that you wouldn't be a part of SOS if you knew that there were racists in your ranks.

Well, it's time to quit the group.

I don't know what went on at your corner since there was no way to get close but you or Joe Turner or any of the other main SOS guys should have insisted that those guys leave, otherwise you're facilitating a platform for racist hate. And you let them hand out racist leaflets!!

You call us "goons" because we call you guys racists and we don't want you in our communities. But take a good look at who you stood with today, it's really nothing to be proud of.

You guys come into a community with the expressed intent of wanting to cause economic damage.. Why? Can't you just leave people alone. The monument has been there for 12 years and Baldwin Park is a city that you would probably never even set foot in if it wasn't for the SOS protests. And then you bring the National Vanguard with you and stand in solidarity with them!! Truly disgusting.

Why are so many racists attracted to your message??

In this photo you can clearly see a member of a known hate group that has affiliations with Race Supremacy groups.

The SOSMM's membership and supporters political agendas are questionable.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp?S=CA&m=3

Please explain in more detail how this woman and CCIR are racist. How are they comparable to Neo Nazi Aryan Brotherhood moments?

CCIR is classified by the SOuthern Poverty Law Center as a "hate group". National Vanguard is also a hate group.

You can't change the facts: SOS stands shoulder to shoulder with hate groups.. what does that make them?

There is no explaination as to why CCir is labeled a hate group from the splc.. I checked the site and it just lists groups without an explaination. What makes CCIR a hate group?

The people of California voted in prop 187, and the judicial system over rided the peoples vote.

The people of the United States want and will cntinue to call fror a balanced approach to immigration and those here that are illegal to be sent home. How is that hate?

One of the key reasons why CCIR can be labeled “Racist” is the organization’s rhetoric regarding Hispanic groups, particularly Mexican-American community based organizations.

CCIR’s use of misleading interpretations about these Hispanic groups are used to create a sense of impending doom for the USA if drastic action is not put in to play against theses Hispanic groups.

It is known that CCIR is actually FAIR, whose has a history of distributing racists propaganda.

The whole concept of a “Reconquista” was conceived by groups such as FAIR. There is no Reconquista. This propaganda creates distrust and promotes violence against persons perceived to be part of a conspiracy to undermine the US government. There is no such conspiracy.

What has happened is that good people have been misinformed and misdirected by groups such as FAIR, CCIR, SOS, MM, VOCT, AP, etc. into thinking that they must fear an “Invasion” from Mexico. They have been told that these invaders can be identified because they are “Brown”. In the mind of a person fearing impending doom, all brown persons become suspect and therefore targets of discrimination and violence.

That is racism.

> You call us "goons" because we call you guys racists and we
> don't want you in our communities. But take a good look at who
> you stood with today, it's really nothing to be proud of.

I believe it shows the real, core ideologies of these SOSMM/Nazi/Storm Front/ National Alliance guys pretty well. One doesn't join the KKK or stand on street corners with them, advocating the same ideologies, spewing the same slogans, and then proclaim one isn't a racist. It's not reasonable for anyone to assume otherwise.

I see these people's assaults against people with brown skin and their assaults against the Baldwin Park monument as recruitment efforts that have backfired soundly thanks to the overwhelming unity of purpose shown by the actual communities who live where ever these hate mongers attack.

But I also think that those clowns who support and defend the racists and white supremists who then proclaim they're "only against _illegal_ immigration" are merely doing so as a matter of public relations. They're aware of the fact that the overwhelming majority of the American populace oppose race hatred -- overt race hatred. So they concocted some plausible story about being against only illegal immigration yet the story doesn't stand up in light of exposures of these clowns being members of, participants with, and defenders of known, long-time white supremist groups.

It's also probably a braindead Republican ghesalt notion not intellectually articulated but felt within their guts that if they can perform an incrimental, step-by-step hate attack against everyone with non-white skin, it'll be just a matter of time before their true desires -- that of an all-white America safe for blue-eyed, blond children -- will become a reality. Pretend to be against only illegal immigrants today, Zyclon B gas chambers some time in their hopeful future.

I am totally against the Socialist agenda, the Communist ideals, the "return California to Mexico" rhetoric that some of the anti-hate counter protesters were spewing. Every time someone shoved a Socialist or Communist newsletter in my face, I politely informed him or her that I'm a an avowed Capitalist pig but that I admired their desire to right the endless wrongs which result from mostly Republican corporate criminals and from uncontrolled greed.

Point being that if SOS/MM/Whatever scumbags don't agree with their fellow white supremists, that's _quite_ different than someone like me -- a Capitalist Pig First Class -- not agreeing with the Socialists or Communists among the anti-hate protesters. The difference is the core ideologies of hate among the SOS/MM/Whatever scumbags, and the ideals of progressivly addressing real problems facing real America among the anti-hate mongers.

One can disagree with some of the advocacy among the group one protests with and still not be reasonably branded with all the labels stuck to the diverse groups one's with _unless_ all the individuals in the crowd share the same ideological core basis or precepts in which case it's not reasonable to claim one doesn't support the group or their ideals.

Anyone palling around with the "Save Our State" a.k.a. "Minutemen" a.k.a. National Vanguard et al. white supremists who _actually_ is not a racist and _actually_ is only against illegal immigration has no reasonable excuse for supporting, defending, or participating with these racist scum. Rationally, logically, and reasonably they should be forming up their own group, joining _real_ anti-illegal immigration groups, and working hard to keep the abject hate mongers out of their group.

First, Fred...did you even read what I wrote ??? Doesn't sound like it...your comments sound like they are talking about a different article. Btw, plese eat before coming to the next protest. I am concerned for you becuzz you were shaking so much while screaming in the bullhorn. At least you simmered down enuff for us to talk in Alhambra. Maybe you are just reaonable after all. I dont know, I would have to talk at you more.

Chop Chop, Nice job in figuring out who I am...you must really really read the SOS board.

First...there were only 5 or so van guard/WN that were there. The very first thing we did when we arrived was to get angry that they were there with their t-shirts on. I questioned the cops about it, and they offered no solution. I did not expect them to be there honestly. I did not think they would make the trip that far... they are VERY territorial.

If the cops would have let them, I would have basically insisted that they take a different corner. It was not going to happen. Some of our people threatened to leave if the white seps stayed. I personally did what I thought I could. Maybe there is more that can be done, I do not know. One thing is for sure, I will NOT tolerate it further, period. We did not 'let them' pass out their flyers...again, nothing we could do.

I want you to consider who YOU are standing with ! Mecha types ??? Hey, 'for the race everything, for those outside of the race, nothing?" And you have nerve to bring up the goons from NVG/WN to us ??? Is this not the height of hypocrisy ? Plz give an answer to that one, I am really interested.

National council of 'THE RACE' ??? Again, give me a big one!

Maybe you do not attend these protests, and do not stand next to THEM...if so, is the reason you do not becuzz they are racist/sep groups ? Plz do not say they are not...I think you are more hip than that. I would like to assume that at this point.

Chop Chop, the SPLC is a total joke, sorry. CCIR aka, the geratol contingent, are basically a bunch of crotchity old WW2 era types that are not going to let anyone tell them where they can or can not protest in the USA. Their comments sometime come off pretty gruff, but hey, so do the goons, and for that matter, so does my 78 year old aunts! They are just of a different time, period.

This wasn't addressed to me, but I have some answers.


> First...there were only 5 or so van guard/WN that were there.

Meaning that around 10% of your supporters are Nazis?

I'd guesstimate that this is more than 100 to 1,000 times their representation in the general population.

-------

I am okay standing with "MEChA types". The accusations made againt MEChA are untrue. The separatist rhetoric doesn't seem to manifest itself in their actions as an organization.

I've been reading up on the Mexica Movement. I guess that might be what you really mean. I do have some issue with their assertion that a (pretty strict) cultural nationalism should be established; it's just not my thing. Still, I can stand to support them, because I believe we agree on the basic facts. If we have a disagreement, it's on strategy, not on premises. I'm not in their situation. I'm not a poor child of a family that was enslaved by Catholics, and it's not my movement, I cannot presume to know what's best for them or tell them what to do. Maybe the NCLR doesn't work for the people involved in this movement.

National Council of La Raza - from their site:
"The National Council of La Raza - the largest national constituency-based Hispanic organization and the leading voice in Washington, DC for the Hispanic community - is a private, nonprofit, nonpartisan, tax-exempt organization established to reduce poverty and discrimination and improve life opportunities for Hispanic Americans."

"Founded in 1968, NCLR began as a regional organization concerned primarily with providing grassroots support to Mexican Americans in the Southwest."

That's what they are. They are as they describe themselves. The term La Raza is just a term they used in Mexico to describe a mixed race ideology the state promoted.

What?! They actually use the term "Mexican American" and "Hispanic". OMG. They might be a mainstream civil rights organization!

The term La Raza comes from the idea of La Raza Cosmica, a new race composed of a mixture of European, African, Asian, and Indigenous American.

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/%7Eurrutia/chicano/RazaCosmicaOpinion.html

There ya go D. Your issues have been addressed.

I figured out who you were because you’re the only half way reasonable person on the SOS board and you’re also the only halfway reasonable SOS supporter here.

I will address your questions, but first let me say this:

I do attend these protests and help organize them. I’ve been to the last 5 (including Victorville). That’s how I know first hand that white supremacists attended BPII. I know for a fact through tracking the Stormfront message board that the man in the white helmet is National Vanguard (by the way, there is a picture of you standing awfully close/talking to that guy on the SOS board).

My guess is that there were more than 5 white nationalists there simply because they stated on the Stormfront message board that they would try to “blend in” with SOS. . So 5 NV wore shirts (that’s not blending in), many more may have tried to blend in with you guys.

As for your questions of me. . . To my knowledge the NCLR is not an activist organization (I may be wrong) and are not sending people to these protests. From what I can tell they are an advocacy group formed to work for the betterment of “Hispanic” people. Growing up in L.A. I can tell you that, although I don’t speak Spanish, the term La Raza loosely means “the people” NOT “the race” as in racial supremacy. To me it seems like the attacks on NCLR from your side really came out of left field. It’s almost conspiracy theory stuff.

As for MEChA. I’m not an expert on MEChA, so maybe somebody could correct me. But since I was asked, I’ll respond. I was never a member of MEChA but back when I was in college I did know people that were. My understanding is that it is a student club whose real goal is to help young Chicanos get into college and succeed. Is that a threat? The slogan: “for the race everything, for those outside of the race, nothing?” was from the ‘60s, it’s not the motto of MEChA. And I don’t believe that it’s the ideology of the individual clubs, which are all independent of one another. Again, for me, that attack on came out of left field. It seems like “La Reconquista” is something you guys are obsessed with, not us.

Ok, sometimes people on our side of the line yell “go back to Europe” to you guys. That is a reaction to what you guys are doing. You guys want people sent back over the border and reading the SOS board it should be noted that the words “illegal” and “Mexican” are sometimes used interchangeably. And you guys march into Baldwin Park with signs like “This land is my land and it will never be your land” and the majority of people opposing you are US citizens. What kind of a reaction are you going for? Every American has a different experience and has every right to express that experience as it happened to them.

And then you have signs like No La Raza (La Raza with a line through it, inside a circle). Everybody is not in on your conspiracy theory. That signs is racist! I’m not surprised she hasn’t brought it back (or has she?).

And the rhetoric on the SOS site says that most of the people coming out to oppose you are part of the “invading hordes”. Some SOS folks cant’ figure out who’s who so they just call everybody “illegal”. That’s racist! And it’s a lie! You guys need to face that fact that lots and lots of American citizens oppose you guys, your tactics and your message.

The SOS attacks are felt by more than just undocumented people . . . you guys are really offending many, many Latinos, lots of whites, blacks and Asians, indigenous people, liberals, anarchists, socialists, etc. Besides, I’d estimate that the vast majority (95%) of the SOS opposition was born here.

Now there are individuals that oppose you guys that have signs like “Europeans are illegal since 1492”, “The Pilgrims were illegal,” etc. These signs aren’t racist; they are simply reminding people of the history of this country that unfortunately cannot be forgotten (and shouldn’t be). SOS did not happen in a vacuum.

Shouldn’t we look at things in historical context? Our culture in America implores us to forget the past but a lot of people simply can’t.

I’d like to continue this via e-mail but am afraid if I leave my e-mail address here, I’ll be flooded with hate mail.

C

> Btw, plese eat before coming to the next protest. I
> am concerned for you becuzz you were shaking so
> much while screaming in the bullhorn. At least you
> simmered down enuff for us to talk in Alhambra.
> Maybe you are just reaonable after all. I dont know, I
> would have to talk at you more.

I appreciate your concern for my health. I'm overwhelmed with gratitude that you care, the loving Arms of Jesus, flowers, and bunnies and all that...

However I wasn't at Alhambra, nor have I ever held a bullhorn in my life, and I don't yell or scream at people. With over 13 years running The Skeptic Tank, I've seen enough of you guys and read enough of your emails to know that there's always a percentage of the populace that are insensate to reason -- and trust me, I don't even try any more.

But I appreciate your concern. A little sunburn is about all, honestly.