It was hard to get a clear estimate of the crowd because people were all over the place, up and down Ramona and the side streets as well as at the monument and down on Pacific St. confronting the SOS.

Demonstrators marched down Ramona St. west and then back to the monument. Many people stayed for the cultural celebration but when the militant contingent (300 or so) returned from confronting SOS down on Pacific St. the ralliers at the monument raised their fists in solidarity.

It was hard to get near SOS but they seemed to have around 40 people at their rally. Some SOS demonstrators were recognized as the same people that showed up in Victorville including the man with the white helmet and the girl with the plaid skirt. They are admitted white supremacists. In Victorville the SOS organizers requested that they stand on a separate corner so as not to be seen on the same side as the National Vanguard (white supremacists) but today they stood shoulder to shoulder in their shared racism and hate.

The police were more prepared this time and had several streets blocked off with K-9 units and patrol cars on every corner on Downing St.

Once again the police protected SOS even though they had no permit and were not welcome by the community.

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> It was hard to get near SOS but they seemed to have around 40
> people at their rally. Some SOS demonstrators were recognized
> as the same people that showed up in Victorville including the man
> with the white helmet and the girl with the plaid skirt. They are
> admitted white supremacists. In Victorville the SOS organizers
> requested that they stand on a separate corner so as not to be
> seen on the same side as the National Vanguard (white supremacists)
> but today they stood shoulder to shoulder in their shared racism
> and hate.

The SOSMM probably felt it was pointless at this juncture to even try to claim they're not all part of the same ideological crowd though perhaps they just decided they would look better from a distance if they all just stayed together this time without breaking up into subgroups. I get the impression they had really hoped more hate mongers would join them this time but of course that didn't happen. They must have been greatly disappointed once again.

Also I had watched large groups of anti-hate protesters break off and walk West to meet up near the Pacific Avenue corner were so many cops and SWAT vans were lined up. I had headed South on Pacific intent on trying to get to the racists to get photographs of these jackasses but a cop pointed at me and asked me to return to the other side of the yellow ribbon, prompting me to wonder how other white supremists joined the SOSMM crowd if the cops wouldn't let anyone pass. Maybe the SOSMM spoke a secret password -- "Beaners" -- or something and were allowed to pass. I think I got five feet before the cop asked me to turn around; he didn't ask if I lived there or was part of the racists, he just asked politely that I return to the street.

You know, that's another thing.

The cops were well behaved and protected everybody's rights, though I don't like the fact that the white supremists were penned up where the actual citizens of the community could get anywhere near them, give them the finger, photograph the neanderthal hate mongers, or scream "NAZI GO HOME!" at them or anything. The cops did a great job, even with the heat, but I still think the racists' rights were stepped on a bit this time around.

We are going to fight back Mexicans!
Get out of our beautiful Country unless you are legal!

You are stealing our jobs, our wages, our medical care,
our schools.

YOU THIEVES!

You suck! Go back to Mexico, you have a HOMELAND.
We hate you here.

Once again Fred and Duane spread thier self laothing
anti-AMERICAN B.S.
Fred, go to D.C. and protest congress not letting you guys have a same sex marriage.
Duane, teach your students to have class, and not be anti-American like you!

Why don't you look down at your feet fool. If it weren't Santa Ana you would be in Mexico.

Were they released?

there, saw them lyself

What a moron. Im sure she'll want the authorities help when she needs it.

May I suggest that counter protest take the form of silence? SOS will not deal well with being ignored. Their type of thinking demands attention, and their stated strategy is to cost cities/counties money.

Silence equals no big deal. Don't go, Don't give them attention.

Gathering for the purpose of solidarity and education could take place at an entirely different location.

It's true that these racists are using these hate fests of theirs as recruitment efforts and I suspect they're finding picking are rather slim since the community turns out in large numbers to oppose their bigotry at every turn.

But I don't think silence is a good way to oppose such people. It wasn't silence that dismantled the Klu Klux Klun until it's the odd radical handful it is today -- much like these SOS / MM / National Vanguard / Storm Front hate mongers are just odd radical handfuls of hate mongers.

These racists are a fringe, ugly face of America and they represent a disgusting aspect of human evolution and behavior that is considered unacceptable in American society. And I think meeting these monsters with silence is something that the American people have done far too much of. Now that the white supremist scumbags are out in public, showing their faces, not wearing their hoods this time, spewing their hatred of ever American ideal covering tolerance, diversity, and equality, now it's a good time for _real_ Americans who uphold _real_ family virtues and values to speak up loudly and strongly, with diverse opinions coming together to unify for short periods of time against the hate mongers pounding on our city gates.

It seems to me that the majority of Americans have been silent long enough as it is and that now's a good time for Americans from across the country to shout down the savage barbarians once again.

No culture is inferior? I'll remember that the next time I have to use a public restroom and have to look at and smell used toilet paper that a certain "culture" refuses to learn to place in the toilet like civilized human beings.

> I'll remember that the next time I have to use a public restroom
> and have to look at and smell used toilet paper that a certain
> "culture" refuses to learn to place in the toilet like civilized
> human beings.

Look at this insane racist spew. I wonder whether this rightard would care to excuse or justify the Bush regime's invasion and slaughter of over 100,000 innocent Iraqis, half of them children, many of them babies. Maybe this scumbag would like to proclaim _that_ as a "superior culture."

The notion there are "superior cultures" is akin to the notion that there is a "Master Race."

Look at this insane racist spew. I wonder whether this rightard would care to excuse or justify the Bush regime's invasion and slaughter of over 100,000 innocent Iraqis, half of them children, many of them babies. Maybe this scumbag would like to proclaim _that_ as a "superior culture."

here you are comparing apples and oranges.. my guess is that you've never been to Iraq and have absolutely no idea what the hell is going on over there.. before you spew your anti- American filth.. you should do more research on the subject... try talking to the men and women that are comming back from Iraq and ask them how the terrorists we are fighting are bombing us..... damn anti-American people like you make me sick

"Now that the white supremist scumbags are out in public, showing their faces, not wearing their hoods this time, spewing their hatred of ever American ideal covering tolerance, diversity, and equality..."

Just goes to show when someone accuses others of being something, they are usually actually referring to themselves. Not everyone on the other side of the protest line are white. I am a black man, born and raised in South Central Los Angeles. I am opposed to illegal immigration, that is those who sneak across the border into this country, you know, un-documented immigrants as those on the PC left like to say? Such activity undermines the very security of our nation and cheapens the very laws that are the foundation of this country. So, am I racists sir? Am I a bigot?

What I am is seriously disturbed by those who would rather allow countless millions of people to illegally come into this country, this state even, and by doing so, damage our economy and societal structure. It makes no sense. You guys need to wake up and realize that you are merely being used by the extreme leftist, Marxists to push an agenda of Socialism and ultimately Communism. This issue has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with ushering in control of the masses by the few.

Just imagine if we actually did erase the borders, what would really happen to this country? Who would really benefit from having an influx of cheap labor? Not you or me, but rich Republican and Democratic corporate and governmental institutions would reap the "rewards" of such a turn of events. None of the opportunities that many are risking their lives crossing the border to recieve will be available any longer. Much of what we take for granted will ultimately be so devalued as to mean nothing at all. Check out the recent court decision regarding iminent domain, the courts ruled in favor of the big corporations! So now the government can take YOURS and my land for virtually any reason whatsoever!

You people are fighting the wrong enemy, it is not the blonde hair, blue-eyed, caucasian male that you so want it to be. As the saying goes, "I have seen the enemy and it is us". We have to take back our government before it is too late, that is what the Minutemen project is all about, holding our government accountable for what they are supposed to be doing for the CITIZENS of this great nation.

Maybe it already is too late.

"Now that the white supremist scumbags are out in public, showing their faces, not wearing their hoods this time, spewing their hatred of ever American ideal covering tolerance, diversity, and equality..."

Just goes to show when someone accuses others of being something, they are usually actually referring to themselves. Not everyone on the other side of the protest line are white. I am a black man, born and raised in South Central Los Angeles. I am opposed to illegal immigration, that is those who sneak across the border into this country, you know, un-documented immigrants as those on the PC left like to say? Such activity undermines the very security of our nation and cheapens the very laws that are the foundation of this country. So, am I racists sir? Am I a bigot?

What I am is seriously disturbed by those who would rather allow countless millions of people to illegally come into this country, this state even, and by doing so, damage our economy and societal structure. It makes no sense. You guys need to wake up and realize that you are merely being used by the extreme leftist, Marxists to push an agenda of Socialism and ultimately Communism. This issue has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with ushering in control of the masses by the few.

Just imagine if we actually did erase the borders, what would really happen to this country? Who would really benefit from having an influx of cheap labor? Not you or me, but rich Republican and Democratic corporate and governmental institutions would reap the "rewards" of such a turn of events. None of the opportunities that many are risking their lives crossing the border to recieve will be available any longer. Much of what we take for granted will ultimately be so devalued as to mean nothing at all. Check out the recent court decision regarding iminent domain, the courts ruled in favor of the big corporations! So now the government can take YOURS and my land for virtually any reason whatsoever!

You people are fighting the wrong enemy, it is not the blonde hair, blue-eyed, caucasian male that you so want it to be. As the saying goes, "I have seen the enemy and it is us". We have to take back our government before it is too late, that is what the Minutemen project is all about, holding our government accountable for what they are supposed to be doing for the CITIZENS of this great nation.

Maybe it already is too late.

I am a native american from a ACTUAL TRIBAL PEOPLES!!! ( none of that fake "wannabe" bullshit like the racist cultural thieves present there on the mexican side, jeez!( i.e. the 'azltners") - how brazenly stupid can someone be to rip off cultural practice from indigenous peoples ??? I suppose the answer is : alot )
I want to THANK the SOS and MM for standing up to the mexican racists there at baldwinpark2. It makes me PROUD to know that AMERICANS are still FREE to excercise their constitutional RIGHTS as AMERICAN CITIZENS ! ! ! ! !
fucking A !!!!! right on brothers and sisters!!!
fight the RACIST COLONIALIST MExicans!
CALIFORNIA was NEVER MEXICO!!!
mexico " claimed"(lol) ca. for 24 friggin yrs. !!!
that ain't even amounting to a piss drop!!!!
but it sure smells like shit !

go back to mexico and feel free to practice your racism and genocide of INDIGENOUS PEOPLE there, as has always been the custom of the mexican people.
see how far you get, amigos.
chiapas got a payback for ya !

INDIGENOUS FOREVER! AMERICAN AND PROUD!
thank you AMERICANs, SOS, MM and NATIVE PEOPLE

I deal with Native people on a cnstant basis.

This person (this white man posing as a Native) is a fraud.

I have _never_ heard or seen a Native person talk this way.

It is very rare to hear Native people curse. Just last night I heard a Native man say "damn." I've known him for over a year and its the first and only curse word I've ever heard from him.

By white standards Native Americans are what one might call "unassuming."

One might say they will let you go to hell in your own way; besides, they often find it beneath their dignity - and improper - to even call attention to their own oppression.

This poser is no Native person.

It is a racist white man using a Native mask to fool the ignorant in a sick, even demented effort to make a "point."

Dear NCI (not culturally ignorant),
greetings, I am a TRIBAL PERSON. in case you didnt know.
I am a full tribal member of one of the OLDEST tribes here in the "south west" or the "frontera" or whatever the COLONIALISTS are calling it thesedays.
I am telling you exactly what we mean, in no uncertain terms, in a LANGUAGE you can UNDERSTAND.
I certainly have to wish to get you confused about the REALITY of my INDIGENOUS SITUATION here in the year 2005.
so I will lay it out for you, dig?
we the NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBAL PEOPLES of the American Continants have NO desire to futher the CAUSE of the MEXICAN GOVERNment/ PEOPLE.
they are EXPLOITERS and OPPRESSORS of INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.
They have been since the inception of THEIR "cultural" complex, oct. 12 1492.
There is NOT one tribal PEOPLE or Group calling themselves "mexicans"; "xicano", or any variance thereof.
Although there are INDIGENOUS PEOPLES present in mexico, they WILL NEVER call themselves 'mexicans'.
or other wise support the COLNIAL GOVERNMENT of MEXICO.
the MExican is considered a 'whiteman', and in mexico, a particularly oppressive negative entity.
that is not to put down any 'white' person in principal(i.e. Americans). but is a special recognition of the fundementaly false propaganda espoused by the "aztlaner" movment.( false propaganda meant to further the COLINIZATION AGENDAS of NON-indigenous fractions( i.e. whitemen(xicano/mexican/spanish/european/etc), OVER the standings of TRUE INDIGENOUS HISTORICAL ABORIGINAL PEOPLE/CULTURE)
I.e. false claims, ignorance of TRUE TRIBAL HISTORY.
and the "elmovmiento"'s ACTIVE SUPRESSION of INDIGENOUS HISTORY (..them: let us tell you the history of California. what agenda? ca. belongs to mexico..(omission of TRUTH or missrepresentation or facts for thier benefit, NOT the INDIANS)
And you can be DAMN sure I will fight this BULLSHIT for as long as I have a breath left..
Native.
ps. you sound nice, I dont wish to offend you, just trying to speak in a voice you can understand.
send me your email.

ps. line 6 "..I certainly have to wish..."
should be " I certainly have NO wish..."
lates

"Just goes to show when someone accuses others of being something, they are usually actually referring to themselves. Not everyone on the other side of the protest line are white. I am a black man, born and raised in South Central Los Angeles. I am opposed to illegal immigration, that is those who sneak across the border into this country, you know, un-documented immigrants as those on the PC left like to say? Such activity undermines the very security of our nation and cheapens the very laws that are the foundation of this country. So, am I racists sir? Am I a bigot?"

You can be a bigot, no matter what your skin color. The last person who told me to "go back to where I came from" was a person of color. He was Asian. I am also Asian. He was an immigrant. My family has been here around a hundred years. Weird, isn't it? What was he thinking?

The foundation of our country isn't just the law, but also the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. There are also a body of writings about democracy that reflect the origins of American democracy. Among these ideas is the idea of human rights. That's what I support.

"What I am is seriously disturbed by those who would rather allow countless millions of people to illegally come into this country, this state even, and by doing so, damage our economy and societal structure. It makes no sense. You guys need to wake up and realize that you are merely being used by the extreme leftist, Marxists to push an agenda of Socialism and ultimately Communism. This issue has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with ushering in control of the masses by the few."

This is an odd statement. Socialist governments generally have extremely stringent immigration laws. They do this because the people there are entitled to certain services, and the interrelationship between the government and the people is a lot closer than here.

The reason why there are so many leftists at the counter-demonstrations is because they are "internationalists" and seek to create an international working-class alliance. This is different from open borders, because it's not necessarily opposed to reigning in corporations from crossing borders. (They oppose CAFTA.)

Capitalist countries generally had more open borders, because open borders tend to stabilize labor markets, and keep wages from spiking upward.

The latest trend in capitalism is the mobility of capital across borders, and the tightening of borders for workers. This way, corporations can benefit from low wages in any country, while the people in these countries cannot move out. Because the differences in wages between countries is greater than the differences in wages between cities or states, the profits you can get from importing are greater.

"Just imagine if we actually did erase the borders, what would really happen to this country? Who would really benefit from having an influx of cheap labor? Not you or me, but rich Republican and Democratic corporate and governmental institutions would reap the "rewards" of such a turn of events."

This isn't really true. They enter into labor markets that already have relatively high unemployment, and cause wages to drop only a little. It's like, if there are three gas stations on a intersection, adding a fourth won't lower the price much. So the big profits really aren't there.

It *does* hurt the low wage worker, though, because they're already so poor that any drop in wages, even if it's a 15 cent drop, hurts. (That's something a middle class person wouldn't even notice.)

On the other hand, it helps the moderate wage worker, who gets to eat out more, pays less for groceries, and has more opportunities to get into a better job due to economic growth.

The wealthy companies mainly benefit from legal immigration, which tends to keep the high wages of skilled labor down. If it weren't for legal immigration via H1B visas, wages for skilled work would shoot up. In the H1B'd labor markets (nursing, doctors, computer programmers, engineers), unemployment is near zero, and this causes wages to be very high. Immigration reduces those wages significantly.

(This isn't necessarily all bad. It's not bad to have a lot of doctors and nurses. Slow wage growth tends to keep inflation down.)

Generally speaking, these skilled laborers come from Socialist countries (like India), formerly Socialist countries like Russia. These are countries with educational systems that attempt to be democratic and affordable.

The US, being mostly Capitalist, tends to have rapid growth and a need for skilled labor, but inadequate educational systems to supply the demand. Immigration is the simple way to externalize the cost of education, and push that expense onto the shoulders of other governmental systems that are better at it. (Just wait until we see the much vaunted privatized school districts. It'll be a partnership between the Learnin Annex and the 99c Only stores.)

The tremendous growth in the economy caused by this top-heavy growth creates a demand for low-wage services. That's part of the reason why there's so much undocumented immigration.

"None of the opportunities that many are risking their lives crossing the border to recieve will be available any longer. Much of what we take for granted will ultimately be so devalued as to mean nothing at all. Check out the recent court decision regarding [e]minent domain, the courts ruled in favor of the big corporations! So now the government can take YOURS and my land for virtually any reason whatsoever!"

I agree. It was an unfortunate decision. You exaggerate though, because it extended ED to allow redevelopment for tax revenues. The tax revenues argument can justify almost anything, though, if it's a taxable property and use. I think the people who will suffer the most are poor people who live near middle class people who want a "nicer" shopping experience, and want to get rid of the poor people.

Eminent domain should be limited to buying property for non-taxable purposes, like public hospitals, public schools, and other public goods. That was the original purpose.

Obviously, the state is more interesed in helping capitalists make money for the state, than in helping the state directly benefit the people.

"You people are fighting the wrong enemy, it is not the blonde hair, blue-eyed, caucasian male that you so want it to be. As the saying goes, "I have seen the enemy and it is us". We have to take back our government before it is too late, that is what the Minutemen project is all about, holding our government accountable for what they are supposed to be doing for the CITIZENS of this great nation."

You're turning a blind eye to the fascists in those groups.

You're also mistaken about the race thing. People know that the SOS have internal diversity. I think all the people know that people of color can be racists. This is LA. Everyone knows about interracial animosities, about racists of color, and so forth.

These are not anti-white counter-protests. They are anti-racist counter-protests.

"Maybe it already is too late."

.....soooo they're protesting mexico? the pro-illegal alien side?
since you say they are protesting "racism".
and if that is true, why are'nt any of you mentioning racism in mexico? fer gosh's sake, they just released a "sambo" series set of postage stamps !!!(google news: mexican postage stamps).

Of course there is racism in Mexico, nobody is saying that there isn't.

But when racist groups (SOS, NV, CCIR) converge on Baldwin Park (I live about 5 miles from BP) I'm going to show up to oppose them.

It's the job of the Mexican people to oppose racism in Mexico and our job to do it here.

Here is an image of the Zapatista Command...

It says all that needs to be said.

what does the above post mean?