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"Save Our State" defies civilized society

by Fredric L. Rice Friday, Jun. 24, 2005 at 5:52 AM
frice@skeptictank.org

The San Gabriel Valley Tribune reports that the "Save Our State" a.k.a. "Minutemen" a.k.a. Whatever they're calling themselves this time around are going to deliberately defy polite, civilized society and the rules of civilized conduct. The SGVT reports that these disgusting creeps wish to deliberately terrorize the City of Baldwin Park to the tune of one million dollars, if possible.

"Save Our State...
a.jpgegsstc.jpg, image/jpeg, 640x480

http://www.sgvtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,205~12220~2934402,00.html

This is a fairly good article covering the June 25'th anti-hate rally coming up here in two days though the right-wing newspaper continues to change the number of anti-hate participants from the May rally ever downward.

What's interesting about this article is the stark contrast between the peaceful anti-hate protesters and the "Save Our State" a.k.a. "Minutemen" a.k.a. Whatever they're calling themselves this time around.

On the anti-hate side of the ledger, we see all the various and diverse groups of individuals pledging to behave themselves as always, as is done in a polite, civilized, Constitutional Democracy where community, laws, and respect for others is the rule of the land.

On the hate side of the ledger, we read demands, threats, refusals, violence, refusal to obey proper rules of reasonable conduct, and everything that the American ideal is opposed to.

Above all, in this article -- ironically published in a heavy right-wing newspaper -- we see easily and clearly who's on the side of wrong, and which side is actually upholding the American ideals of civilized society.

My opinions only, of course, and only my opinions.

http://www.sgvtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,205~12220~2934402,00.html
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Seditious Statue

by Pachuco Friday, Jun. 24, 2005 at 6:16 AM

Seditious Statue...
seditious_statue.jpg, image/jpeg, 442x477

Next on the SOSMM agenda . . .
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Awesome

by johnk Friday, Jun. 24, 2005 at 8:37 AM

That's an awesome cartoon.

For all the rebellious bluster, the SOS are, ultimately, a bunch of wannabe corporate attorneys. "Sue sue sue! Cops cops cops!"

They think like bureaucrats and nitpicky accountants. It should be no surprise that the founder of the MMP was an accountant.
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Give us your tired, oppressed... If they're white

by Fredric L. Rice Friday, Jun. 24, 2005 at 8:48 AM
frice@skeptictank.org

Excellent cartoon. }:-}

Whol makes a better American? Someone who sneaks across the border, finds a job, pays his taxes, sends money back to Mexico to help alleviate the poverty and hunger there... Or people who state in public that they're working to inflict what looks to me to be economic terrorism against cities that don't bow to their racist hatred and bigotry?

The good guys have agreed to follow the City's rules and regulations and to be safe and good citizens of the community while doing so. The bad guys?

Well, my opinions are irrelevant. These SOSMM et al. indivioduals speak for themselves and express and expose exactly what they stand for. This SGVT newspaper article allows the SOSMM to speak clearly what they stand for and what they advocate so my opinions are irrelevant.
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Here's their religion too

by Hex Friday, Jun. 24, 2005 at 12:12 PM

Here's their religio...
gopchurch.gif, image/png, 350x270

.
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Who Needs the Patriot Act

by FBIISTHERE Friday, Jun. 24, 2005 at 2:11 PM

When you dupes will give up your names? LOL
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Twisted Reality

by Tim Duncan Friday, Jun. 24, 2005 at 3:31 PM
aaabbbccc@yahoo.com 123-123-1234

Mr. Rice,

I don't know what video you may have watched, but I've watched extensive video of the Baldwin Park event that showed many, many minutes of running footage of both groups from both sides of the street. Your version of events is a twisted reality.

If you just watch the running video footage you see:

On one side of the street, you have the relatively small SOS group, holding up signs, but otherwise holding a peaceful demonstration ... no yelling, no chanting, no bullhorns. Just standing there holding signs.

On the other side of the street was a large loud, angry, screaming throng. Chanting insults, yelling out racial slurs. Insulting signs: "F*** the Alamo", "Go back to Europe Gringo", "This is Mexico", etc. Megaphones. A loud crowd screaming out hate. One guy shouting "Yes to Bin Ladin the Gringo killer" and "Zarqawi was right, death to gringos". Someone from the pro-Latino group threw a full water battle that hit a SOS protester in the head and sent her to the emergency room.

The BP Police eventually escorted the SOS folks away because the pro-Latino crowd had grown in their size and furver that the Police didn't think they could ensure the saftey of the SOS protesters any longer. And you describe youself and your cohorts as peaceful, democratic, constitution-loving angels?

Who are you trying to fool?
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the police's reaction

by Hex Friday, Jun. 24, 2005 at 4:00 PM

was to arrest Hal (SOS)

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Do try to keep up, please

by Fredric L. Rice Friday, Jun. 24, 2005 at 4:35 PM
frice@skeptictank.org

> I don't know what video you may have watched

Do try to pay attention, please, and go back and read the San Gabriel Valley Tribune article again and work through it slowly until that Republican IQ of yours manages to soak up the relevant aspects of the hate mongers and their latest terrorist threats against the City of Baldwin Park. Specifically make note of the head ringleader deliberatly stating he wanted to terrorize the City of Baldwin Park for one million dollars, if possible, if they didn't cave to his racist demands.

That's not a claim I made, that's not a claim any anti-hate activist made, that's not a claim that the San Gabriel Valley Tribune made, that's a statement issued against the City direct from the scumbag yap of the "Save Our State" a.k.a. "Minutemen" ringleader, one you can neither explain nor justify, huh?

Who's the ignorant, terrorist savage? Those who advocate racial equality and tolerance, or those who issue death threats and economic terrorist threats against our Democratically elected government representitives?

Right. Look at what you try to defend. (I'd bet you're all for George W. Bush's war crime atrocities in Iraq, huh?)

Go try it again and keep reading it until you get it right. And if you still can't get it right, go spew your hatred on the "Save Our State" a.k.a. "Minutemen" web site where you'll find your intellectual equals who will be willing to believe any hate filled notion you dredge out of your ass.

Thank you for your prompt assistance!

My opinions only, of course, and only my opinions.
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Tim Duncan

by 1Planet1People Friday, Jun. 24, 2005 at 9:24 PM

Tim,

You haven't done all your homework. While we argue about what progressives do, acknowledge the faults of your own racist people.

sparcmurals.org/downloads/vid/Part3.wmv
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Hey, KPC, Ready for Round 2

by Enduring Voice of Freedom Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 4:24 AM

TIM - BELOW WAS MY POST TO YOUR RACISTS & BIGOTS POST. GUESS WHAT? THESE INDYMEDIA HYPOCRITES REMOVED THE POST. That's their M.O. - ingore the facts, offer meaningless slogans and labels, and censor what opinions they don't like.

* * * * * * * * * *

I've pretty much given up debating the activists here at LA Indymedia. It's like cheating at a game of chess - you have checkmated your opponent and then he/she unilaterally decides that the checkmated king can move 2 spaces per turn instead of 1.

A perfect example, I provided links to some sound and comprehensive studies that show illegals take more in taxpayer-provided benefits than they could ever possibly pay in taxes. Their response? All these guys do here is label (so much for being true “progressives”). The study was from a "think tank" (yes, so what’s your point), they’re associated with "Fox News" (Fox will report on their studies, but that does not mean Fox owns the think tank), you’re a “Republican” (no, actually I’m an independent and despise our current president for being so pro-corporate and open-borders), and so on and so on.

Another example: I provided “anchor baby” poncho 3 occupations hit hard by illegal immigration, throwing Americans and legal U.S. residents out of work, and he'll make up something like that they're union occupations. Most landscapers or construction workers I know are not in a union. The stats on union membership in the U.S. are around 20-25% of all jobs. You will give them fact after fact, and they will simply ignore them and continue to label you. And, of course, their favorite cut is calling you a “racist” just because you support legal immigration but oppose illegal immigration, and believe our borders need to be secured.

Yet one more example: I ‘outed’ one of the prime instigators here at Indymedia, proving this guy was a militant atheist and an extremist whom harasses people whom believe in religion, and further that this guy lives in an ultra-white gated community (yet is coming to Baldwin Park to celebrate diversity). His response? You got it, I must be a “racist.” Ironically, many of these student counter-protestors that claim to be against racism show up with signs and flags celebrating MEChE, a racist group whose motto is “Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada.” (Translation: For the [Chicano] Race, everything. For those outside the Race, nothing).



You are really wasting your time here. These radicals do not care about facts and will not honestly debate you on anything. They will label you “racist” just because you do not share their dreams of world socialism, and ignore all the anti-white racists in their our group. And they’ll spew forth, over and over, all the buzzwords and catch phrases that get the socialists all hot and bothered: “Fox News,” “racist”, “Nazis,” “Republican,” “No person is illegal” (true, not a person, but their immigration status in the U.S. is), “We didn’t cross the border; the border crossed us” (I don’t think anyone present at Indymedia was alive in the 1840’s when Mexico’s questionable claim to what is presently the Southwest U.S. ended), “Our community is not a cesspool” (no, but if you won’t walk the streets at night for fear of your safety, there certainly is something significantly wrong with that particular town), etc. You’ll give them reasoned arguments, and will got nothing back but hypocrisy, slogans, labels and catch phrases.
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Something I dredged out of my ass

by Tim Duncan Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 6:28 AM
aaabbbccc@yahoo.com 123-123-1234

Mr. Rice,

I read the article from the SGV Tribune. I don't support or agree with everything Mr. Turner of SOS says, but I also know that most print 'reports' for any newspaper typically is framed with an agenda supported by the editorial staff of that newspaper. Liberal or conservative, doesn't matter.

My comments were specifically referring to watching actual video footage of actual events, not promoting an agenda formed from the mind of some newsprint editor. If you WATCH the running video of the actual event, WATCH the real people at the event itself, you see one side screaming racial slurs, threats, and expletives and the other side quietly carrying their signs up and down the sidewalk. Go watch the video and then you tell me which side is which, and which side shows more respect for the opposition's constitutional right to assemble.

Frankly, I think protesting the monument in BP is itself meaningless ... what it means is vague and open to interpretation, and in the overall scope of issues on illegal immigration, illegal employment, healthcare crisis, etc., that monument is a zit on the ass of the flea on the dog. The monument is really nothing more than a place to voice opinions on the broader issues.

I do think that the BP city's position of wanting to impose a financial fee for getting a permit to demonstrate is a slippery slope regardless of your position on the issues. The right to assemble is a constitutional right. Any time the government can impose financial obstacles to ANYONE gaining access to that constitutional right it becomes a suppression of EVERYONES rights, even if you hate the other side. Just imagine if the Alabama state government had imposed insurmountable financial obstacles on the civil rights movement of the 60's, and had succceeded in setting that as a legal precedent! I think Mr. Turner is right to challenge that precedent, because it negatively affects your rights to assemble and demonstrate too. Even if I disagree with someone's position on issues, I have to respect their rights ... because if I don't, that means the door is wide open for my rights to be suppressed as well. That's what it means to live in this wonderful country.
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OneEyedMan

by KCP Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 6:47 AM

Fred, I think Tim is on the money here. The tactics used by the anti-SOS group might work well for Skinheads and KKKers in white robes, where the opposition is wearing the uniform of the bad guy...

...but in this instance, such tactics backfire. I understand that some of the SOS'ers might have robes and hoods in their closet, but if they are not wearing them then it is not obvious to the casual onlookers that you are protesting racism...regardless of your intentions.

If you really want to counter what I agree is a wrong-headed SOS group, then the anti-SOSers need to organize and strategize better...or else you will shoot yourself in the foot every time.

Tim, thanks for your reasoned and level headed posts...very refreshing and appreciated.

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Ass dredging

by Fredric L. Rice Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 9:07 AM
frice@skeptictank.org

How amusing. Utter denial of everything "Save Our STate" and "Minutemen" stand for isn't a rational or legitimate rebuttle. Nor is it a condemnation of the white supremicy.

> I read the article from the SGV Tribune. I don't
> support or agree with everything Mr. Turner of SOS
> says, but I also know that most print 'reports' for any
> newspaper typically is framed with an agenda
> supported by the editorial staff of that newspaper.
> Liberal or conservative, doesn't matter.

Are you trying to claim that the SOSMM's threat of economic terrorism is a "liberal conspiracy" lie?

Also one doesn't jopin the KKK and then claim one isn't a racist. One doesn't support and defend the rhetoric and actions of the KKK and then proclaim one isn't a racist. I'm against illegal immigration but would never even dream of signing on with hate mongers that can boast of being supported, defended, applauded, and joined by such wonderful American heros as Turner, Storm Front, American Nazi Party, National Vanguard / Alliance et al.

If you support and defend these SOSMM scum, you _must_ be in favor of what they stand for once you become awar of what that is. Trying to pretend you can ignore the white supremists and other racists and demanding you're not supporteing and defending them is a contradiction; it's irrational.

Clue: If you're against illegal immigration and are not a white supremist scumbag, don't go joining a white supremist cult. Go join a real anti-immigration group that doesn't enjoy the support and defense of Nazis, Skinheads, Aryan Nations, National Vanguards, and STorm Fronters.

My opinions only, of course, and only my opinions. What I see from the rhetoric and actions -- including the threats being made by the SOSMM ringleaders -- indicates to me that they're all virtually indistinguishable.

Incidentally, I also think you can't break up such groups into subgroups and sdtand them on different corners screaming the same hatred and bigotry, and then glibly proclaim, "We didn't invite those Nazis. They're not with us, we don't want them here, they don't represent what we stand for."

What do you clowns think is the reason why so many real, normal American citizens turn out to oppose everything you people stand for? Do you honestly think they're all "pro illegal immigration" or some how all Communists or Socialists or some other obsolete demonization out group that you can point to in order to discount the fact that _real_ Americans oppose hatred and bigotry?

If you're against hatred and bigotry, racism and white supremists, then what the _frock_ are you doing with these SOSMM people? You contradict your own ideology, in my opinion.
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Oh, I should apologize, Tim

by Fredric L. Rice Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 9:15 AM
frice@skeptictank.org

I should add that if I'm mistaken in my assumption that you support and defend SOSMM, please let me apologize. I understand that one can be opposed to what the SOSMM people stand for and also make critical comments on the actions of some of the anti-hate counter protesters.

The issue for this discussion thread is the comments that the SOSMM ringleaders issued to the SGVT newspaper and the utter refusal to abide by the rules of polite, Democratic society. One of the larger anti-hate groups _has_ agreed to play by the rules of polite society and that is a stark exposure of what SOSMM stands for.
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Ass dredging revisited

by Tim Duncan Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 11:19 AM
aaabbbccc@yahoo.com 123-123-1234

Mr. Rice,

I am not a member of either SOS or MM. I've never had any intent on joining in the BP protest, as I see the explicit protest of the Danzas Indegenas monument as a waste of time and energy. I grew up within throwing distance of the Mexican border and am intimately familiar with the Latino culture. As I said in my prior post, I am anti-illegal immigration but I am in favor of LEGAL immigration if there is tight coupling between a guest worker visa program, aggressive border enforcement, and agressive employer enforcement. I have a problem with 1 million people a year sneaking across our borders and the financial, social, economic impact it has on our country. I'd welcome a world where migrant workers take air conditioned buses from Mexico to the US and their employers had to bear the full burden of the financial costs for their choice to employ a foriegn national instead of our current system of forcing the US public to bear the burden of those costs while they pocket the extra profit.

I'm sure there's extremists in both the SOS/MM and the pro-immigration crowds that everyone should be wary of, whether that's the guy on the BP video yelling "Go back to your Mexico cesspool" or the guy yelling "Bin Ladin Gringo killer, Yes, Yes". The first guy I'd call unimaginative and uninformed. The second guy I'd call downright dangerous.

I'm sure there's some people in both groups with righteous concerns and productive approaches to address those concerns. I'm sure there's a lot of people with righteous concerns in both groups that just say really stupid things ... but that don't have white robes or revolutionary camo in their closets.

That's why I'm staying away from the whole 'racist' and 'illegal alien hugger' bag.

Now, to step away from this whole BP monument mess ... whether or not you support or hate what the MM project did in Arizona in April, objectively it did demonstrate two very important points: it proved that with enough resources, national attention, and focused government will on both sides of the border, that the flood of illegal immigrants CAN BE significantly reduced; and, it proved that our federal government CHOOSES not to effectively enforce our borders. While everyone likes to beat their chest about MM being armed vigilantes ... and I'm sure there were probably a few scary looking people with guns ... the reality is that the majority were average middle class folks armed only with binoculars, cell-phone, lawchair, and an ice-chest ... and a simple goal to lift the veil on our own government's hypocrasy. What hypocrasy you ask? The hypocrasy that our government is willing to sacrifice 2000+ lives of our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan in the name of the "War on Terror", while turning their backs on the flood of people crossing our borders (mostly migrant workers, but also some criminals, some armed militia (Zeta, M13), and possibly a few terrorists) ... while the business lobby and politicians line their pockets and prostitute themselves for votes. Every parent of a dead soldier should be having a BIG problem with that.

What other evidence do I have about our Federal government CHOOSING not to enforce our borders? I have a relative that is retired DOJ ... he led drug interdiction teams along the border that included Border Patrol. The BP agents complained that they had been reprimanded for making arrests of illegal aliens at the border. When asked why, they said that the BP managers in D.C. wanted to declare a section of the border "successfully suppressed" ... they did this by moving their agents to other areas so that the arrest reports would show fewer arrests in a given region. Fewer reported arrests means they've successfully stopped the crossings, right? When these BP agents made arrests in the wrong region, their arrest reports screwed up the stats on the "successfully suppressed" area ... and they were reprimanded by BP brass. The BP brass were completely unconcerned with the legitimate goal of enforcing our laws ... they just want their reports to make it LOOK like they are being effective.

The BP brass in D.C. works for Bush, and Bush panders to the business interests and Latino-voting-bloc lobbies. Bush says he's tough on the War on Terror? Well, only as long as it only involves killing our boys in a war overseas and doesn't involve upsetting the apple cart in his key voting blocs domestically. This is hypocrasy that makes me want to just puke every time I see Bush on TV.
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Yet more lies...

by Caught Lying Again Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 11:31 AM

Is there no bottom to this deep pit of lies?

By the way, why is Indy Media continuing to rattle on about this woman "hit by Minuteman supporter". Its now well known and publicized that you fraudsters faked the whole incident. Video of the fraud being committed was posted here several times and it was removed. Just like a Stalinist propaganda machine.

WHY ARE YOU COVERING UP YOUR LIES. YOU SEEM RATHER PROUD OF MOST OF THEM.
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Don't waste time with Fred

by Caught Lying Again Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 11:35 AM

Why would anyone attempt to engage Fred Rice in a logical discussion. He is a lying machine and not playing with a full deck. After all, he is part of the Indy Media propaganda factory.
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 11:37 AM

...ever seen the movie "Rashomon"?

...sound like some Hollywood thief could make a remake set in BP...

...I don't expect that the screaming banshee above could understand it....he's about as subtle as a fart in a crowded elevator.
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Pants down w/ dick in wringer

by Render Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 11:40 AM

"Indy Media propaganda factory"

I wasn't aware that an open discussion board to which anyone can comment constituted such a far fetched judgment.

Shows where someone's mindset is at.
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Twisting Reality

by The Mórrígan Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 12:45 PM

Tim—

You see what you want to see. I see two groups, one larger, one smaller. The smaller one has traveled a hundred miles to invade a small town and object to artwork there. The art is not theirs, it wasn’t intended to speak to them, but they seem to think it’s their right to put on their middle-class clothes and hover under their parisols, and object to someone else’s art.

They are met by a large group of people ready to defend the town’s art installation, a tribute to the original people of that town and their leader, a woman who stood up to earlier invaders. The large group is outraged: they yell, they cuss, they call names, and they have a bullhorn. OHMIGAWD! None of this is new to the protest circuit, but you hold this group to a different standard. A water bottle is thrown, a woman is struck, and, after coaching, she falls to the ground. At any point the larger group could have erupted into real violence, but they don't do so.

What leads you to say the invaders and provokers are peaceful, and the people with working class clothes and working class Brown faces are violent? I hope, if nothing else, you respect freedom of artistic expression. Then how can you say that the SOSers are peaceful, when they have publicly declared they will remove this cultural expression of Chicano Indigenists, regardless of the law, and they organize and cross borders to a city that is not theirs to do just that?

Tim, I see history repeating itself, and it’s not pretty and it’s not peaceful. Especially when you call those doing the violence the peace-makers, and those standing in defense the aggressors. No dove flies over the heads of the SOSers.

Hard as it is for you to see, the protestors of Indigenous descent are not the problem, any more than descendents of slaves or Palestinians are. To label them so is invert reality, and it is that inversion that conquistadors require to justify and finance their perpetual wars of domination. Maybe you are a conquerer, I don't know. But if you're not, turn your world right-side up.


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OneEyedMan

by KPC Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 12:53 PM

Hey, I just found out that Telemundo will be coming to Baldwin Park. We need lots of signs in Spanish for the cameras. In case you're Espanol is a bit rusty, just bring signs with these slogans. My roommate help me figure these out:

¡No, usted no puede comprar a mi pequeña hermana para tan poco dinero!

Usted los gringos no puede bailar a la derecha y huelen divertidos.

¡No necesitamos una tarjeta verde! ¡Tomamos lo que deseamos, cuando lo deseamos!

Let's give these racists hell tomorrow.
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What an asshole

by Render Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 1:07 PM

'No, you cannot buy to my small sister for so little money!'
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Can't even use Spanish

by Render Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 1:13 PM

2) Usted los gringos no puede bailar a la derecha y huelen divertidos
[?]You foreign them it cannot dance to the right and smell amused.
3) ¡No necesitamos una tarjeta verde! ¡Tomamos lo que deseamos, cuando lo deseamos!
We did not need a green card! We took what we wished, when we wished it!
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 1:21 PM

I did not post the above...you can tell not because it is racist, but because it is not funny.

You can always tell when you've got the wingnuts number when they steal your handle...


...ah...my public, how the ADORE me....
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Spanish

by The A-hole Replies Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 2:37 PM

Of course I don't speak spanish - this is America. All the decent paying jobs in America require you only speak fluent English, not spanish - NEWS FLASH for all you reconquistas.

The stilted spanish was provide courtesy of the friendly computers at Dictionary.com.

http://dictionary.reference.com/translate/text.html

The 2nd one roughly translates into English as "You Gringos can't dance and you smell funny." Now how did that guy translating this things miss the term "gringo"? You're all full of shit, so that's what you'll get treated as.
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Hola, KPC

by fresca Saturday, Jun. 25, 2005 at 11:02 PM

I'm the one who impersonated you.

Pretty clever, huh?
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The Mórrígan

by Tim Duncan Thursday, Jun. 30, 2005 at 7:51 AM

People who cannot promote their positions on their merits and facts always fall back to the old standard of LABELING their opponents as villians in the hopes the undecided or uninformed will be distracted and swayed by false perceptions.

Again, I personally don't have any issue with the Danzas Indegenas monument. Our state has a multi-cultural history ... Native American, European and Russian explorers, Spanish conquistedors, and American settlers from a many varied ethnic background. Whether you like or dislike any of the acts or contributions made by any of those groups ... its just a simple fact that they're all a part of our heritage. I agree with many people who have said that the protests in BP are really not about the monument, but simply use the monument as a stage to raise the visibility of other issues faced by our society ... namely the problems induced with our current government policy of permitting unlimited ILLEGAL immigration.

Again, I will say: I am pro-LEGAL immigration. I think a guest worker visa program would be great ... but ONLY if it was also tightly coupled to biometric SSID verification, aggressive border enforcement and aggressive employer sactions. If an employer has a legitimate need, and there's a LEGITIMATE foreign national that can meet that need ... that's a wonderful thing. Promoting the current system and policies that not only fosters, but encourages the wonton violation of our immigration laws is simply self-serving to the groups that benefit the most: Business leaders, political leaders, and Latino activists.

It's funny that you use the term 'Conquerer'. It shows a world view where everyone is placed into two groups: Conquerers and Victims. Has there been racial discrimination in the US? Yes, with many a righteous struggle to bring equality to our country. Has there been racial and ethnic discrimination elsewhere in the world? Yes, throughout history, for thousands of years ... one group versus another. It doesn't matter which part of the world you point to, or really what groups are perceived as 'victims'. Close your eyes, spin a globe, and just point. The Spaniards under the Moors; the Jews under the Romans; The Muslims under the Christians Crusades; The Irish under the English; The Bosnians under the Serbs; the list is endless.

The reality is that the US today is one of the few countries in the world where anyone from any ethnic or national background can get a free education and build a successful and vibrant life without the imminent threat some political or ethnic group indiscrimnately or violently taking their possessions or even their lives. Bosnians were shot outright by Serbs for simply walking in the streets just a decade ago. So, sorry if I don't have much sympathy for your world view dipicting you as a 'Victim' ... for most people that call themselves that, it's just an excuse for why they won't or can't take personal responsibility for their own lives. Ask yourself happened to the Vietnamese refugees that arrived in our country in the early 70's ... they started businesses, they had their children get advanced degrees, and now in 35 years it's common place to see Vietnamese doctors, lawyers, business people, professionals ... they came to this land with virtually nothing but the shirts on their backs, saw only opportunity and the only label they allowed themselves was 'Success'.

Yet, here you are crying about the Spanish Conquistadors 400 years after the fact ... and that somehow this means that a large groups of economic refugees that trace their DNA lineage to the the Tultecs of central Mexico and Central America can come north and claim themselves as 'victims' that should permit their privileged ability to ignore our countries laws? The Tultecs of central Mexico may have a distant connection with the Native Indians of the American Southwest, but that connection is separated by thousands of years of migration south and large cultural rifts. Why aren't the Yavapai-Apache in Arizona setting out welcome huts for their lost brothers and sisters from the south? Why aren't the Pueblo Indians of New Mexico out searching the border for their lost brothers and sisters? Why aren't all the Indian Tribes here in CA that have gambling casinos using all those profits to help their oppressed brothers and sisters south of the border? After all, If you're claiming someone's 1/4 Tultec DNA gives them the right to reside here in the US illegally ... may as well go out to Morongo and see if the Morongo Indians will admit their long lost brothers and sisters from Mexico into their tribe ... you might be able to get a cut of their casino profits ... not. Not even your "own people" recognize your claim to any historical 'right' due to some diluted 1/8 DNA chain who's only connection to local Native Indian tribes was a couple thousand years ago.

This isn't a middle class versus working class issue. If anything, the flood of illegal immigrants will impact the working class MORE than the middle class as employers choose to replace legal blue-collar workers with cheaper illegal labor. Maybe you think this is OK today, because the illegal immigrants are your Azteca brothers and sisters ... so what happens tomorrow when the employers figure out our government isn't pro-Latino ... it's really pro-business and pro-profit, and next year the employers figure out they can import a bunch of Pakistani workers that costs them half as much as a Latino? Yeah, you got it ... suddenly all those illegal immigrants will be screaming about how they're being victimized by our nations open border policies and how they want our immigration laws enforced ... for everyone else but them. Then who's the RACIST?

This isn't a white versus Latino or Native American issue. I'm 1/4 Native Plains Indian ... but I'm first and foremost a US Citizen that is being extorted by our own government by it's insistance that my tax dollars subsidize the economic welfare of the business interests that illegally employ illegal aliens. I'm not bemoaning the fact that our history, culture, and society is multi-ethnic. I'm bemoaning the fact that a select group is permitting to wontonly violate our laws for the benefit of the few who profit economically and politically from the subtrafuge, and this violation is something that impacts my tax dollars and the quality of life where I live.
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Save Our State DEFENDS civilized society

by Farkus Thursday, Jun. 30, 2005 at 8:01 AM

This isn't a middle class versus working class issue. If anything, the flood of illegal immigrants will impact the working class MORE than the middle class as employers choose to replace legal blue-collar workers with cheaper illegal labor. Maybe you think this is OK today, because the illegal immigrants are your Azteca brothers and sisters ... so what happens tomorrow when the employers figure out our government isn't pro-Latino ... it's really pro-business and pro-profit, and next year the employers figure out they can import a bunch of Pakistani workers that costs them half as much as a Latino? Yeah, you got it ... suddenly all those illegal immigrants will be screaming about how they're being victimized by our nations open border policies and how they want our immigration laws enforced ... for everyone else but them. Then who's the RACIST?

This isn't a white versus Latino or Native American issue. I'm 1/4 Native Plains Indian ... but I'm first and foremost a US Citizen that is being extorted by our own government by it's insistance that my tax dollars subsidize the economic welfare of the business interests that illegally employ illegal aliens. I'm not bemoaning the fact that our history, culture, and society is multi-ethnic. I'm bemoaning the fact that a select group is permitting to wontonly violate our laws for the benefit of the few who profit economically and politically from the subtrafuge, and this violation is something that impacts my tax dollars and the quality of life where I live.

Eloquently stated, M. Duncan.

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hey how are you> hey how are you?

by ca nat Thursday, Jun. 30, 2005 at 9:20 AM

thank you tim duncan.
i could go on here, but I am truely in thought by your Intelligent treatment of the subject at hand.
one word.SittingBull.
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Sitting Bull

by Fed Up Thursday, Jun. 30, 2005 at 9:35 AM

He wasn't Mexica.
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ok ok ok

by ca nat Thursday, Jun. 30, 2005 at 9:42 AM

or maybe I will go on .....

1/8 ? of what?
I myself am(repeating my self here) Full Tribal of a southwestern tribe.
I may or may not have any "mexican"/european "blood" somewhere in the line, its not anything I have any need or think about. not important to me.

But, the relation here, to the self-proclaimed "xicanos" ...
I am chinese? by some opinions. we supposedly "emmigrated" over the bering strait.
so that means I will now go to communist china and DECLARE my self the Inhereitor of all the lands of china...
what do you think their reaction would be?
the Deed/title or a insane asylum(if I was lucky, most likely a state approved execution)
should I go to spain and declare that I am the long lost heir to the throne and have now returned to RE-CLAIM my land and titles? what would their reaction be??
i'd be laughed out of the continent( after getting the clap from a nice spanish woman)
sooooooo how can some fake ass "movemiento" expect to be taken seriously? give me a friggin break!

sorry charlie, not going to happen. and then on top of it all we get to hear about "the evil gringo stole our land" oh boo hoo, and WHOM do you think you stole it from amigos? the tooth faires? or was it just magicaly non-populated?
perhaps you think that MY ANCESTORS were somehow EXTINCT ??
guess again homies, I am right here in front of you.
And the greatest blessing is that I am here IN America.
land of laws( its not always prefect, but not much is)
and its still the greatest country in the world.

America, its whats for dinner
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Victims

by Tim Duncan Thursday, Jun. 30, 2005 at 11:04 AM

There's an informative thing about the whole Azteca and American SouthWest myth used as political argument ... that it's really just a propaganda tool used promote perceptions and justify illegal acts by perpetrating a myth that illegal immigrants have a "human right" to migrate into the US because of the 'victimization' of the Tultecs by the Spanish Conquistadors in Central Mexico and Central America 500 years ago.

If you follow that thread of logic all the way back through the centuries to find out which ethnic group has been victimized by what other ethnic group ... you'll end up at the Ultimate Tragedy in Racial Cleansing ... the extermination of the Neanderthals by Homo Sapiens. That has to prove that the White Europeans are devils incarnate ... wait, those homo sapiens from Europe populated Asia, migrated across the Bering Strait, populated the Americas ... OhMyGod ... the Aztecs KILLED NEANDERTHALS! Those devils are Conquistadors!

OK, now I admit that's a real reach. But my point is ... we live in a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic society. We could spend 1,000 years trying to figure out which group has been victimized the most, but it's really a waste of time.

The unique thing about the US is we were founded as a nation of laws, where those laws applied equally to everyone. If a law is unfair or violates our constitutional rights, it is changed or rescinded. But the foundation is that NO ONE is ABOVE the law. Advocating a policy that promotes the unchecked illegal immigration of a population that is 95% Mexican foreign nationals means that one ethnic group is being promoted as priviledged in that this advocacy promotes their ability to be ABOVE the law.

In any objective, color blind test, this is just wrong, no matter how anyone tries to justify it ... because all the justifications are simply self-serving attempts to preserve a priviledged status.

And before anyone goes off on me about how these poor 'migrant workers' can't possibly be privileged ... I'm not talking about economically priviledged, I'm talking about their belief that they have a right to function in our country OUTSIDE our laws, and be treated in a priviledged way in that our law enforcement agencies don't simply track them down and deport them forthwith. If I break a law, I get arrested and I'm very likely to be separated from many of my freedoms, if not my money and possessions. An illegal alien by definition breaks several US laws by entering into this country illegally, getting fraudulent SSID cards, partaking in our social services, and working in a cash-only black market economy without paying into our tax system ... and we have our local governments taking my tax dollars and building shelters and work halls for them. Our government has made this so good that it's REWARDING illegal aliens for breaking our laws.

This is UNEQUAL treatment under the law, and not what the Fathers of our Constitution had in mind.
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Talk to me about myths >>

by Fed Up Monday, Jul. 04, 2005 at 7:50 AM

Today in 1997, the majority of the population in Oxnard, Califas (Occupied Mexico/Aztlan) consists mainly of Raza that live where there is no real political life around Raza Self-Determination, our rights as people to decide our own destinies. There are so-called Raza organizations preaching that Raza has control of our own communities. Simply by insisting that Raza has political power by having brown faces "Hispanics" seated on the city council, that Raza has control over our own education in having “brown teachers” and that Raza has control of our own socio-economic level because our "middle class" is increasing. These things that are being said by the so-called Raza organizations are not Raza Self-Determination, it is individualistic sell-out politics. What these "Hispanic and Latino" organizations are really preaching is for Raza to join forces with the United States Government (illegal white settlement) to further oppress the masses of Raza in Occupied Mexico/Aztlan. The only true Raza organization in Oxnard that is dedicated and committed to Raza Self-Determination and the liberation of all Raza, is the Committee on Raza Rights, Oxnard Region of the National Chicano Moratorium Committee (CRR-NCMC).

Before proceeding into the history of the CRR in Oxnard, we feel that there is a need to lay-out the history of the NCMC and it's struggle for Raza Self-Determination and liberation of all Raza in Occupied Mexico/Aztlan.

http://committeeonrazarights.org/publications/newsletter/97/pg01.html


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Class Aspects of Vietnamese Refugees

by johnk Monday, Jul. 04, 2005 at 11:43 AM

>>>Ask yourself happened to the Vietnamese refugees that arrived in our country in the early 70's ... they started businesses, they had their children get advanced degrees, and now in 35 years it's common place to see Vietnamese doctors, lawyers, business people, professionals ... they came to this land with virtually nothing but the shirts on their backs, saw only opportunity and the only label they allowed themselves was 'Success'.

You are overlooking the class aspect. The Vietnamese refugees, at least the early ones, were the anti-communist bourgeois -- the middle and upper classes. Overall, they were urban people who lost everything, but, they were not all poor. Moreover, they had some experience being elite, running businesses, etc.

So it's not just "rags to riches". It's "riches to rags to riches again."
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Equality Under the Law

by johnk Monday, Jul. 04, 2005 at 12:40 PM

Historically, in America, some people are more equal than others.
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now hear this..

by canat Saturday, Feb. 11, 2006 at 2:33 PM

once more around the track.....
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Don't forget...

by BaBaBooey Saturday, Feb. 11, 2006 at 3:39 PM

...all of the money given to the vietnamese refugees by the U.S. government. It's easy to start a business with using someone else's $$$
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Vietnamese refugees earned the money

by Border Raven Sunday, Feb. 12, 2006 at 7:13 PM

Vietnamese refugees earned the money, fighting with the USA against the Communists.

Many were military officers and their families --I've met some. Very educated, and family oriented -- Like pre-1950's USA. Or before Women's Liberation. The lived in a communal lifestyle with the extended family nearby -- not spread to the winds--, they were close to each other.

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reply

by Jammer CC Sunday, Feb. 12, 2006 at 7:17 PM

Speaking of SOS defying civilized society, it seems that 1inchgroup from SOS has accused Naui and I of placing nails under their tires today in Lake Forest. And that BlackCats guy is portraying me as someone targeting their female members. Yeah right. I was trying to help that one new lady track down her friend Sal, offering the use of my cellphone. That one guy had me cross the street, in effect helping her across the street, which I was okay with.

This really takes the cake. SOS accuses people on Indymedia of stuff like this. Now I experience it firsthand from from the Minuteman/Gilchrist/SOS whatever people. It's gotten to the point of calling the Lake Forest police to straighten things out. 1Inchgroup pulled a stupid move there, but Joe Turner can delete his post if he's smart. Or he can leave it there, that's fine, I'll show it to the police.
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