In a major local victory over racism, determined counter-protestors in Baldwin Park today turned back Save Our State, a militant anti-immigrant group from Ventura.

Save Our State had announced a protest in opposition to an installation artwork at the Baldwin Park Metrolink Station on Ramona Blvd. and Downing Ave., claiming the piece was pro-illegal immigration. Save Our State recently orchestrated a media campaign in opposition to area billboards referring to "Los Angeles, Mexico" until the billboards’ owner, Clear Channel Communications, removed them.

On hearing of the planned incursion into Baldwin Park, local groups including Aztlan Mexica Nation/Harmony Circle, Frente Unida Pueblos de America, Comite Pro-Democracia en Mexico, and Mexicanos Unidos, quickly organized a counter demonstration. Save Our State had arranged for a permit and police protection for their event, and counter-demonstration organizers hastily did the same. Shortly after 11:00 a.m., Danza Cuatemoc opened the counter-demonstration with a dance and blessing. Manuel Lozano, mayor of Baldwin Park, and David Olivas, a local councilmember, spoke to the anti-racist group. Lozano had previously denounced Save Our State as "un-American" and "perpetuating racism," and at the rally he promised to ask for a state investigation of the hundreds of racist e-mails received by him and others in city government generated by the Save Our State campaign. Also appearing in defense of the monument was Judy Baca, the artist of the installation and noted muralist of Great Wall of Los Angeles, who rallied the assembled crowd of several hundred by reminding them that the monument, inscribed with comments from Baldwin Park residents, belonged to Baldwin Park.

The danzantes led the counter-protestors, mostly young Chicano residents of Baldwin Park with representatives from various Los Angeles anti-racism groups and left-wing political movements, across the small plaza and the parking lot to a police line set up about two hundred feet from the forty or fifty Save Our State members. Armed with signs, banners, cameras, and bullhorns, the counter-demonstrators chanted for the racists to go home. Police positioned themselves about ten feet behind the police line, facing the counter protestors. No similar police presence was apparent at the Save Our State site.

The danzantes led some of the counter-protestors to the plaza, while others made their way around several cordoned-off city blocks to confront Save Our State at the other end of the parking lot. More local residents joined the counter-demonstrators there, and the swelling crowd chanted "¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!" and "Whose streets? Our streets! Whose land? Our land!" while the dwindling group of anti-immigration protestors stood in silence holding signs that read "No to Reconquista, no to Aztlan," "Stop Illegal Alien Immigration," and "This land was Mexican once and will be American forever." The Baldwin Park residents and allies crowded around two street corners, again confronted by a line of police and circled by a police helicopter. When the police ordered the anti-racist protestors to move back, the crowd obeyed but called across the intersection "Racists! Two steps back!"

Meanwhile, at the other end of the park, Danza Cuatemoc performed on the four corners of the Ramona and Downing, with the encouragement of local motorists.

One person from Save Our State collapsed and was driven out in an ambulance. Some reports indicated she was struck with a water bottle, while others said she was a victim of heat stroke. The police did not question or challenge the counter-demonstrators about the incident.

At approximately 2:30 p.m., it was announced that Save Our State was leaving the area. Amidst roars of "¡Si, Se Puede!," the breakaway counter-protestors returned to the plaza, and organizers gathered names of those ready to stop the Minutemen at the California border.

###

error

That was a pretty good counter Demo. I think that SOS will think twice about organizing a pathetic protest with only 30 racists to show. I think that they got the message. They probably got intimidated by our strong numbers. They are definitely on our radar and won't get away with anything.

Herman@s,
Good job out in California! Just wanted to let you know that there is a growing worldwide movement to support immigrants and to oppose borders. For a world without borders and without racism!
--an "Anglo" anarchist out east, in Appalachia

It is hard to solve a problem when a problem is misunderstood, and so I take exception with calling SaveOurState racist.

When I began to contribute to SOS, I took as my first goal to combat the racism that I thought a minority of those drawn to the organization would have. I was surprized at how few there were to deal with and how much help I had. I will admit that a lot of frustration with the "Mexifornia" culture comes across and has been intensified by the Baldwin Park meeting. SOS leader Joe Turner is ferreting out the worst from the website forums.

If we disagree, let us define our difference as open borders versus controlled and enforced immigration. SOS is loosely organized, and I know there are a few who believe that the golden days of immigration are over for the US. Dissuation of true racists will also be something that we will have to continually work on.

Although official policies have not been written and I have no authority to speak officially for the organization, I think I can safely proclaim the following for the group.

SOS is for a multi-racial society. It is for the inclusion of many cultures into a common American culture--the "melting pot" theory. It does not adhere to strong multiculturism. SOS is pro-American, pro-Mexican, and pro-Hispanic. It is also pro-African, pro-Asian, pro-European, and pro-other. It holds that there is a way to be all of this that includes maintaining viable borders.

Particularly in the relationship with Mexico, it observes that in modern times Mexicans are drawn to the United States in large numbers. SOS wants the US and California to remain a place to which Mexicans will be drawn. We do not want California to become like Mexico, which millions of people per year want to flee.

SOS is not angry at the average illegal immigrant. We only want him to obey our laws, which means he can not cross the border illegally. We are fervently opposed to any exploitation of illegal immigrants. We are most angry at President George W. Bush and the government in general for not enforcing the law, President Vicente Fox and the Mexican government for openly encouraging its citizens to leave in opposition to US laws, the corporations for playing along with the staus quo whatever to make a profit, and most of all ourselves, for having allowed this situation to persist to this point.

Our main focus was Home Depot, as an example of an American corporation that was going along with the degredation of America for profit. We were distracted by Liberman Broadcasting using gang symoblism on billboards indicating that California should be "rubbed out" in favor of what appeared to be the "Plan de Aztlan". This instigating conflict for profit. We were then notified of the monument in Baldwin Park which seemed to promote the racial conflict of the "reconquista" movement.

As SOS is against racism, we want to expose it, even when it is directed against the American mainstream, which is no longer predominantly white. Particularly in California, we recogize that in the future, the population will be of a Hispanic majority, and have no problem with that. I recently moved from an Anaheim condominium, in which 4 of the 6 families on our sidewalk were Hispanic to Riverside County, where 3 of 7 contingent families are Hispanic. Modern-day white flight.

The question is, when Hispanics are in a majority, will California be the Golden State in a land that grants everyone individual equal rights--the place the illegal aliens were drawn too--or will it resemble Mexico with an elite exploiting the masses with the aid of artificial race-based rivalries?

If you are for open borders, you have legitimate disagreement with SOS, but these disagreements should be handled academically and codified through the system into a law that is enforced. If you are against racism and exploitation of the common man by elitists, then you should be the ally of SOS, and discussing you differences internally with us.

I would be interested in knowing any logic for having open borders or knowing anyfaw that you find in my arguements above.

Attacking the monument was racist. If you use a racist organizing strategy, you will end up attracting racists. Organizations like that can become fascist.

Next time, try organizing a demonstration that isn't racist, fixated on hating Mexico, or some other racial or nearly-racial issue.

For further photographic coverage, also see http://www.skeptictank.org/nohate.htm

Seems once again people have gotten into a polarized arguement of "us vs. them"..

The divide and conquer architects of the corporate CIA just love to watch working class European immigrants fighting with Mexican immigrants..

When the reactionary left resorts to name calling (ex. "white trash", "go back to Arkansas"), it is obvious we haven't though much about class struggle, instead focusing on inflaming ethnic tensions. Somehow people of any ethnicity need to rise above the petty name calling and begin a discussion of why massive immigration into norte america is happening..

If the economy in Mexico (or any other struggling nation) was equal to the US economy, how many people would be crossing the border to live in the US, legally or illegally??

Do people really desire to leave their families in Mexico to mow lawns or pick pesticide soaked agricrops in the US??

If people enter the US because of real desire instead of economic need, the current problems that fuel anti-immigrant hysteria would be non-existant..

Why is Mexico and the US so different economically? Was immigration as strong an issue before WW2? Why did Mexico nationalize their petroleum into Pemex circa de WW2? (clue; Rockefeller's Standard Oil). When did illegal immigration increase, and were corporations responsible? Would people migrate into a hostile culture if they could support themselves at home? Do maquiladora corporate sweatshops on the Mexican side of the border effect immigration?

An attempt at equalizing the human potential of the Mexican and US economy may seem like a pipe dream, yet if this did happen, all the taxpayer resources spent (electricity for spotlights, petroleum for INS SUVs, minerals for barbed wire fence, etc..) on policing the imaginary border could instead go to improving the lives of ALL US immigrants and indigenous people living along the former border..

To accomplish this goal we need to stop arguing so much (SOS vs. Aztlan) with one another and look at how for profit corporations and both governments (US/Mex) revoke the freedoms of ALL people within their imaginary borders..

Immigration issues are side effects of the source cause of globalization policies. Free trade agreements like WTO/CAFTA/NAFTA/PPP/etc. haven't solved any existing immigration issues prior to their implementation, in fact, they made the problems of economic inequality and poverty based immigration worse..

luna moth

more info on free trade globalization economic exploitation and what ALL people can do to stop it;


CIEPAC;

"CIEPAC es un Organismo Civil de Chiapas cuyo trabajo es el análisis y la investigación, la formación y capacitación, y el acompañamiento de procesos sociales. Se caracteriza por no ser lucrativa, sin filiación a partidos políticos."

http://www.ciepac.org/

"Attacking the monument was racist. "

>>> Oh, come of it, johnk. You know damned well this has NOTHING to do with race and everything to do with bleeding America's welfare state dry and threatening our national security. Why do you think illegals are coming here?

>>>> Do you see SOS or any other groups (other than self-proclaimed racialist groups) demanding LEGAL immigrants leave?

If you use a racist organizing strategy, you will end up attracting racists.

>>>> Just how is the simpe act of organizing racist? Please let us know, since so many racist aztlan fools are doin' it.

Organizations like that can become fascist.

>>>> I agree. Perhaps you should clean your own house of anarchists and other violence-prone freaks.

Next time, try organizing a demonstration that isn't racist, fixated on hating Mexico, or some other racial or nearly-racial issue.

>>>> Well, if it comes down to "whose land" this is, guess what? THIS IS THE USA, NOT MEXICO.

>>>> And you can bet your begonias there'll BE a next time. And many more after that.

Inscribed on the seditious arch: "it was better before THEY came..."

And these leftist phonies have the GAUL to call US racist. Hypocrites and liars, the lot of you.

johnk, the protest at the monument was not racist but to protest racism. More later.

luna moth has a lot of wisdom. The legal US working class is being driven against illegal immigrants to lower the price of labor and to bill the taxpayer for subsidizing the cost of this labor. This is simply a shift of wealth form the lower classes to the upper classes.

She/he is right that SOS and Aztlan need to stop arguing in the manner of throwing water bottles. Arguement needs to continue in the intellectual trading of arguments intended to discourage foolishness and establish an intelligent course of action.

I think Bush is afraid of the Minutemen. Can you imagine how afraid he would be if the Minutemen and La Raza came at him in unity and told him how things were going to be?

I also think that the borders are not artificial. Geographically arbitrary maybe. But they are real to define the separation of distinct legal jurisdictions and cultures. I am willing to hear arguements that this is not the way things ought to be. however, it is the way things are and we do not want to get caught up in an is/ought falicy.

I hope soon to start a dialog in the SaveOur State website forums entitled "Discussions With Anarchists and Reconquistadores". It will be a little more edgy from the SOS point of view.

In the meantime, you can read my other writings there under the name of Steve Brow and respond to them.

to johnj:

Organizing against the monument was racist. Race is the only tenuous connection between that monument and immigration.

The monument was based on the San Gabriel Mission, and I consider that to be a signficant part of local history. I don't think of it as "Mexican" as much as part of San Gabriel, and the SGV. It's been there a long time, and, it's one of the local places people visit when they're learning about the local history.

"Do you see SOS or any other groups (other than self-proclaimed racialist groups) demanding LEGAL immigrants leave?"

No. However, I saw a lot of "racialists" on your forums. I also know that "racialist" is some kind of code word for "racist" that some neo-Nazi groups use.

"Just how is the simpe act of organizing racist? Please let us know, since so many racist aztlan fools are doin' it."

Just re-read the original post and other posts I've written about this. There are some racist (or "racialist" to use your euphemism) Chicano groups out there that put out a message of separatism. They do racist organzing, and, not surprisingly, race separation or maintaining the race becomes a core value of the group. There are Black groups that do this too. Some Asians have this attitude too, but, they are doomed to lonely lives, because most Asian conflicts are inter-ethnic.

And, of course, we know about some of the white racialist groups, and racist organizing is exactly what they do, because it gets them who they want.

SOS is doing racist organizing. Racism will become a core value of the group. I think it already has, to a great degree -- SOS has adopted the "convetional wisdom" of the far right / white supremacist milieu, particularly with its paranoia about "Reconquista" and MEChA.

"Organizations like that can become fascist.

>>>> I agree. Perhaps you should clean your own house of anarchists and other violence-prone freaks."

The media spin on anarchism's always been negative. After Seattle, when one faction decided to vandalize a bunch of stores, they got the spotlight again. The cops specifically started targeting anarchists, and they've suffered a lot more beatings and repression than ever.

I'm an anarchist, at least in desire, if not always action. Anarchists are pacifists, generally. Though there are militants and people open to using force, that vast majority of people who come to identify with anarchist thought begin with a desire to end coercive relationships between people (as well as between people and animals).

The largest anarchist project in the world is Food Not Bombs, an anti-war, anti-povery project that feeds people from the surplus food the retail market throws away. Anarchists admire the Zapatistas in Mexico, who are fighting a human rights battle against the Mexican government, and gaining respect, and self-respect, for Indians. Anarchists also admire the unemployed workers of Argentina, who have taken over shuttered factories from their owners, and started producing things again.

I'm also against borders. This is a dream, and you can say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. :-)

In practical terms, of course, we can't yet eliminate the borders. I just think we should try to achieve greater balance across the border, so that walls are not necessary. (I am for free trade. I am just opposed to NAFTA and the FTAA.)

Militarizing the border, and building higher and thicker walls is a prelude to increasing inequality. With people politically and geographically "stuck" in Mexico, they will be unable to escape their conditions, and will be subject to increasing levels of exploitation by their elites.

"Well, if it comes down to "whose land" this is, guess what? THIS IS THE USA, NOT MEXICO."

You should tell that to someone who really, really cares. Maybe someone in the Mexica movement is interested in debating this with you.

I believe that, ideally, it's "your land" if you are using it to live "your life." We don't have that, of course. We have property and states to enforce it.

"And these leftist phonies have the GAUL to call US racist. Hypocrites and liars, the lot of you."

I'm neither a phony nor a Gaul. Not that there's anything wrong with being a Gaul.

"She/he is right that SOS and Aztlan need to stop arguing in the manner of throwing water bottles. Arguement needs to continue in the intellectual trading of arguments intended to discourage foolishness and establish an intelligent course of action."

I agree. In this situation, however, SOS is the antagonist. The Minutemen are the antagonist. They are both using racially charged language and imagery, and have affiliations with racists. They called for the political action, and we merely organized an informal response.

When I see a sign like "This is OUR LAND, NOT your land, and it never will be," held by one of your supporters, I think, "what a racist." My family has been here a hundred years. There was a time when they were not allowed to own land, because racists like her had the poltiical clout to restrict citizenship and land rights. I think she wants to push us backwards, to the 1950s, back to when she was a teenager.

"I think Bush is afraid of the Minutemen. Can you imagine how afraid he would be if the Minutemen and La Raza came at him in unity and told him how things were going to be?"

Here's a simple suggestion. Quit SOS. Find, and join, a Mexican-American led group that's working to stem illegal immigration. Better yet, if you care about worker rights, support groups that try to improve conditions for workers. If you really care about this issue, don't devote your energy to a group that has attracted racists, has used racism to attempt to get recruits, and has some supporters who are wealthy pro-NAFTA partisans.

There cannot be any trans-racial unity in an organization that's blatantly hateful of any group of people. When I saw the SOS home page, I was thoroughly disgusted. I'm not even Chicano, and I was offended.

In an older post, you wrote:
"The question is, when Hispanics are in a majority, will California be the Golden State in a land that grants everyone individual equal rights--the place the illegal aliens were drawn too--or will it resemble Mexico with an elite exploiting the masses with the aid of artificial race-based rivalries?"

The Golden State has given individuals equal rights for around 40 years. This is on paper, of course. Prior to that, California was full of race-based rivalries, based around unequal rights, codified into law and contracts. Due to uneven rights, the labor market was split into different parts, and different groups lived in different areas.

Today, we're living in a situation where the elites are creating race-based rivalries, based around uneven rights. Undocumented workers have fewer rights than other immigrants, and compete with workers who have more rights. Prison labor, who have even fewer rights, compete with workers who have more rights.

So, we don't need to wait for that day you fear, when demogrpahic brown-ness will cause the elites to *really* exploit the masses. It's part of history, and it's happening today.

You just never really noticed it, because you were on the side that had the advantages.

[God Blessed America]
This Land Was Made For You And Me

This land is your land, this land is my land
From [the] California to the [Staten] New York Island,
From the Redwood Forest, to the Gulf stream waters,
[God blessed America for me.]

As I went walking that ribbon of highway
And saw above me that endless skyway,
And saw below me the golden valley, I said:
[God blessed America for me.]

I roamed and rambled and followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts,
And all around me , a voice was sounding:
[God blessed America for me.]

Was a high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property,
But on the back side it didn't say nothing --
[God blessed America for me.]

When the sun come shining, then I was strolling
In wheat fields waving and dust clouds rolling;
The voice was chanting as the fog was lifting:
[God blessed America for me.]

One bright sunny morning in the shadow of the steeple
By the Relief Office I saw my people --
As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering if
[God blessed America for me.]

*all you can write is
what you see.

Original copy of this song

WOODY G.
http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/3448/thisl1.html

My opinions which may be inaccurate or "sadly mistaken" but probably aren't:

> the protest at the monument was not racist
> but to protest racism. More later.

It's a bit amusing to observe someone trying to claim that the SOS assault against freedom of speech, art, and Mexicans in Baldwin Park was all done out of love and human kindness. It's exactly like the freakishly bizarre notion that slaughtering over 100,000 innocent Iraqis is "liberation" and "bringing Democracy to the people of Iraq."

This kind of love and help the world doesn't need. We all saw enough of it spewing forth from Nazi Germany, didn't we?

It's telling that the "Save our State" you-know-whats and their "freepers" ideological brothers have been allegedly going through their web sites and discussion forums removing embarrassing postings by their members and followers, removing the racist hatred and bigotry that's been posted in an attempt to try to hide the evidence.

Sound familiar? It's what right wing extremist do; it's why this fascist regime tried to hide the evidence of their rape, torture, and murder in Iraq. It's why this fascist regime censored its own environmental report and its own annual report on religious oppression, and its own annual report on terrorism. It's all the same: fascisism is what fascists do.

On May 14'th we saw the true face of SOS -- every one of which was white and probably never went hungry a single day of their lives. We also saw the true face of racial diversity however it was among the good guys on the other side of the ribbon.

It's ironic: If these SOS clowns were really worries about intolerance, they would excise the hate mongering homophobic bigots, racists, and other unsavory Bush-defvending Republicans from their group.

'Course I suspect -- given what I've seen -- that would leave nobody left in the Repuiblican Party.

My opinions only, of course.

It's a bit amusing to observe someone trying to claim that the SOS assault against freedom of speech, art, and Mexicans in Baldwin Park was all done out of love and human kindness.

It was done for love of America, so it doesn’t end up a shithole like Mexico (sorry, but it’s true, otherwise Mexicans wouldn’t be fleeing from it).

Also, seditious statements don't belong on public property. If some "aztlan" Mexicans want to be racist fuckwits, they should do it on their own dime.

It's exactly like the freakishly bizarre notion that slaughtering over 100,000 innocent Iraqis is "liberation" and "bringing Democracy to the people of Iraq."

Well, if you’re right—and you are not—the Iraqis will find themselves another dictator to torture and starve them versus their new democracy.

It's telling that the "Save our State" you-know-whats and their "freepers" ideological brothers have been allegedly going through their web sites and discussion forums removing embarrassing postings by their members and followers, removing the racist hatred and bigotry that's been posted in an attempt to try to hide the evidence.

It's their right to trim the fatheads from their website. That's a part of freedom of speech. You'd know that if leftists actually believed in it for anyone besides themselves.

On May 14'th we saw the true face of SOS -- every one of which was white and probably never went hungry a single day of their lives.

From what I've seen, not too many of those racist aztlan jerkoffs seem to have missed many meals. And then there's the tatooed losers, gang members, and fugly feminists...

We also saw the true face of racial diversity however it was among the good guys on the other side of the ribbon.

Will you tell the “good guy” who threw a bottle and put an old woman in the hospital to turn his cowardly self in at the Baldwin Park Police Station? Thanks.

Like a certain talk show host said: “If I were in Mexico, I’d do the same thing (the illegals) are doing by coming here. I agree, but fate has it I’m one of the blessed who was born in America. And because I was born in the land of the free, I have a duty to defend it from invaders.

The tit's run dry, illegals. Either overthrow your lousy Mexican government or starve.

Read your comments but its late. See you tommorrow

Reconstructin

Like a certain talk show host said: “If I were Black, I’d do the same thing (the northern freed slaves) are doing by fighting the south. I agree, but fate has it I’m one of the blessed who was born white and rich and Southern. And because I was born in the land of Dixie, I have a duty to defend it from invaders."

Hey Frederick, you ignornant buffoon, how the hell do you know what's going on in Iraq? Been there lately? Have you seen the progress that's been made since the invasion and ouster of one of the most brutal dictators in modern times? Have you seen the courage of the average Iraqi as he went to the polls to vote despite death threats? Have you seen the meeting of the National Assembly?

Did you miss the uncovering of mass graves, dumbass?

Save your faux concern for the Iraqi people. You couldn't give a fiddler's fart about them. You think this invasion shouldn't have happened? Well let's just put Saddam back in power and pay the bastard his billions in reparations. That'll make everything better won't it? Jackass.

Oh, and let's ignore all the amazing events that have happened since the invasion:

Libya giving up it's WMD arsenal
Lebanon ousting the Syrians and demanding free elections
Syria legalizing opposition parties and calling for elections.
Egypt liberalizing it's political system.

A grain of salt must be taken with most of the above, but it's a goddamn avalanche of good news compared to what happened in the Middle East during the 30 years prior to the invasion.

And anyone who thinks that there is a parallel between the desire to see racist, seditious language removed from a publicly-funded memorial in public space on one hand and the Invasion on Iraq on the other is right. These people love this country and want to protect it, from racist seditious morons who think that because they have a majority of the population in a town they can ignore the rights of their fellow citizens, and the laws under which they supposedly operate, and from terrorist-sponsoring dictators who finance suicide bombers and assassins targeting our presidents.

And "More Rational" try to stay on topic. The civil war is over. It was fought and won primarily by tens of millions of white men to free tens of millions of black people. Those that opposed them were killed or subjugated. What else do you want?

Simple Simon appears to be responding to a post by Frederick. But I couldn't find any post in this thread by Frederick.

Bush Admirer's posts have all been deleted.

It appears that the LA IMC thought police are active again and are simply deleting, rather than hiding, post that they disagree witih.

> The tit's run dry, illegals. Either overthrow
> your lousy Mexican government or starve.

The voice of Bush Republicanism today, folks.

Pretty, isn't it?

Supporting and defending the indiscriminate slaughter of over 100,000 innocent Iraqis is dismissed as, "well, they would have got themselves another dictator" -- and yet this clown "forgot" to notice that they _did_ get another dictator. One that's slaughtered far more people than Saddam did. And his name is George W. Bush.

It's all the same Bush Republinazi mindset -- as well as KKK, Aryan Nations, Church of Jesus Christ Christian, and all the other white supremist hate rhetoric the world has suffered from over the centuries.

Slaughter brown-skinned Iraqis who worship the "wrong" gods? That's okay, they're being "liberated" -- and besides, they just would have picked another dictator anyway. So mass killing them isn't like anybody got hurt, right?

Yes, let's close our borders. Yes, illegal alien invasions _are_ bad and they _do_ need to be stopped.

But let's not turn into a packet of racist Nazis whose sole motivation _isn't_ to control crime or over crowding but to express, spread, and exercise their racist bigotry. Let's demand of our supposedly elected government that our borders be closed, and let's do it rationally, calmly, and without the SOS a.k.a. Minutemen a.k.a. KKK a.k.a. Aryan Nations et al. hatred and bigotry.

> Hey Frederick, you ignornant buffoon, how
> the hell do you know what's going on in Iraq?
> Been there lately?

This is the true face of the typical SOS a.k.a. Minuteman a.k.a. KKK a.k.a. Aryan Nations et al. Repuiblican. Ovber 100,000 innocent Iraqis slaughtered solely to seize controil of their oil, and Bush Republinazis think that's just fine because their Fuhrer has "liberated" them.

Never mind the facts of the matter; that this fascist regime's mass murdering butchers lied to the American people and lied to COngress and the rest of the world. Never mind the fact that this fascist regime slaughtered babies in their beds from the safety of 30,000 feet using cluster munitions, napalm, and depleted uranium munitions -- all of which is banned under Geneva Acts, Accords, and Declarations because they fail the dictates that they significantly alter the environment and they continue to slaughter babies long after "hostilities" are ended.

Another FOX "News" syndrome rightard spews the Republinazi lies and, of course, he believes every word of it.

This is what the core of the SOS/Minutemen/et al. racist bigots are comprised of. They're Republicans who support and defend their mass murdering, baby killing Fuhrer, and their motivations for doing so are quite clear: the victims don't have white skin.

I think I've covered the phenomena enough here. If any racist wants to contionue the discussion, email will work. I will, of course, web your email.

Guess he's not writing back. Oh well.

" Ovber 100,000 innocent Iraqis slaughtered"


UH, you left out the part where the VAST majority of these "innocent" Iraqis are being slaughtered by their "peace loving" muslim brothers and their favorite suicide bombs.

The bloodbath, to whatever extant it even exists, is yet another example of islamic savagery.

Freddy, answer the freaking question.

Have you been to Iraq lately?

If not, then how do you know what’s going on? How do you know about the casualties? Where did you get your 100,000 figure from? You think you know so goddamn much, who’s feeding you the goddamn ‘truth’?

Oh, and give me a single verifiable example of the US military in Iraq using cluster munitions or napalm to ‘slaughter babies’. You don’t know shit. You do, however, have a common malady found on the limp-wristed Left: You hate your country. You are a self-loathing, spineless coward and liar, quick to believe anything that would defame the US and willing to dissemble and distort just to see this country humbled. You jump for joy when lies are printed in Newsweek and scream ‘censorship!’ when they are subsequently retracted. You can’t wait for the next manufactured humiliation to be heaped upon the heads of America. You want to know whose cowardice is killing the children of Iraq? It’s the IED makers who plant their bombs and detonate them regardless of the presence of children. It’s the bombers who take their families with them when they go to implant IED’s, and then blow everyone up by accident. It’s the bombers who plant bombs near schools and clinics and in market places. It’s the bombers who tell kids to carry packages containing bombs in exchange for candy. And who helps the poor little blow-to-bits kids? Who risks life and limb to save their little butts? The US Army.

In Iraq US soldiers have gone to incredible lengths to ensure that the civilian casualties were the lightest of any comparable sized operation in history. You will not find an example in any book of a more precise and less destructive operation than Operation Iraqi Freedom. In a remarkably short period of time, a REAL dictator who REALLY slaughtered hundreds of thousands and used REAL weapons of mass destruction is ousted from power. Not only didn’t 100,000 Iraqi civilians die, not even 100,000 Iraqi SOLDIERS died. That’s because the US Army is so good at what it does it was capable of taking the head off the beast without needing to kill the rest of the animal. But you don’t see that, do you? No, you see a two-time ELECTED PRESIDENT as the problem. You see sinister shadowy corporations and racist conspirators aligning behind a fundamentalist boogeyman to kill all the brown people and take their oil. You are, in short, a stupid, stupid child.

And don’t you ever say anything about racism to me, dickhead. I don’t see the issue of our borders or of Iraq in terms of race. I see it in terms of national security, national interest, and, in the case of Iraq, the extension of Democracy and Capitalism to the Middle East. If a pack of Norwegian Lutherans were running amok invading other countries, gassing their people, supporting suicide bombers, paying for assassination attempts against our presidents and otherwise acting like dickheads, you bet your ass the United States would fix their little red wagons just as quickly. So take your tired strawman argument and shove it.

Now you say you’ve said enough and you’re ‘moving on’? What a surprise. Spray a bunch of ignorant platitudes and ad hominem attacks and skedaddle before you get your ass handed to you.

They are planning another protest for the fourth of July. I know we all want to be ate home with our families so we can burn American flags as a family (just kidding), but maybe we should move the party to Baldwin Park? SOS is obviously scared of us (the Hispanic menace), so the best thing to do would be to show them that there's nothing to be afraid of: greet them with beans and rice and carne asada (and of course a vegetarian alternative -- 8]--), more danza Azteca, some folklórico dancers, some hip-hop MCs, some musicians, and turn the thing into a party where everyone is invited. It seems like the tactics of the counterprotesters last time resulted only in bad feelings and more hostility....
I'd like to see a healing process begin after the rift these right-wingers have provoked, but we have to take the first step. Come on people, let's turn the other cheek and really reach out to try to begin the process to make this a better world.
Anyone with me?
Rockero420

Rockero,

You post on the SOS board quite often now, so you should know that there are NO formal planz for a 4 th July event.

P.S., we are not scared to go back to BP if that is the next plan ,or a future plan. So , plz , for someone who knows so much, and puts it so well, at least get something so simple straight.

If we do go back to BP, and you go, plz come over and introduce yourself to me. I would really like to meet you , even if we disagree about Aztlan being a direct threat to the USA. - Don (oldpreach)

50,000,000 people set free from tyrants, and its still about oil. Plz grow up and get a job or something. Also, as both an MMP volunteer, SOS supporter, biz owner, father of 5 children that I raise in the ways of the good Lord above, your conclusion about "us" is so far off, its just laffable.

What part of sitting on a tailgate with a cell phone (and no gun btw) dont you get ? If there is a border down there, its hardly a crime or ractist to pick up a phone and let the patrol that patrols it know that someone is crossing it illegally. Ray Charles with a welding mask on could see that....can you ?

Sounds good Rockero. I think a lil carne asada and some beer would ease some tensions and allow for some constructive interaction. Well, not too many beers.

Ms. Radford and the Editor at Indymedia

You clearly have a unique definition of racist that differs from what dictionaries give.
RACIST: # noun: a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others # adjective: based on racial intolerance (Example: "Racist remarks") # adjective: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion
I would have to say that any group screaming "kill the gringo" and telling people who were born in this nation to "go back to England" ; who believe in a "bronze nation"; who have a motto of "for the race, everything, for those outside the race, nothing"; who feel that the American southwest belongs to them BECAUSE of their perceived race would qualify as "racist", not "anti-racist" as you wrote. This description would incude the Brown Berets, La Raza, MEcha and problaby most of the other organizations you named.
A group wishing to see the laws of the land enforced against ALL invaders, regardless or color or origin, and which group contains people of all colors and origins, CANNOT, by definition, be "racist", as there is no definitive "race" on either side.
The same cannot be said of those whom you fallaciously deem "anti-racist" . Read their signs and listen to their speech in the videos as www.saveourstate.org. Read their own webpages and see how they deal with the issues of what they preceive as "race".
"latino" is not a race, but are simply spanish speakers who live in the US
"hispanic" is not a race. It is is a group of people worldwide of all colors and origins who speak spanish
"mexican" is not a race but a nationality including several races
"American" is not a race, but rather a nationailty consisting of ALL races
"Illegals" is not a race, but rather an uspecified group of people from all nations and of all colors who COMMIT A CRIME by illegally entering our nation.
So here is my question to you: if a group consisting of ALL races wishes existing laws enforced against law breakers of ALL races, how is that "racist"?
Are you a news reporter of a propaganda writer? We've not had enough with the Dan Rathers and Jason Blairs in the last year?.

Ms. Radford and the Editor at Indymedia

You clearly have a unique definition of racist that differs from what dictionaries give.
RACIST: # noun: a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others # adjective: based on racial intolerance (Example: "Racist remarks") # adjective: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion
I would have to say that any group screaming "kill the gringo" and telling people who were born in this nation to "go back to England" ; who believe in a "bronze nation"; who have a motto of "for the race, everything, for those outside the race, nothing"; who feel that the American southwest belongs to them BECAUSE of their perceived race would qualify as "racist", not "anti-racist" as you wrote. This description would incude the Brown Berets, La Raza, MEcha and problaby most of the other organizations you named.
A group wishing to see the laws of the land enforced against ALL invaders, regardless or color or origin, and which group contains people of all colors and origins, CANNOT, by definition, be "racist", as there is no definitive "race" on either side.
The same cannot be said of those whom you fallaciously deem "anti-racist" . Read their signs and listen to their speech in the videos as www.saveourstate.org. Read their own webpages and see how they deal with the issues of what they preceive as "race".
"latino" is not a race, but are simply spanish speakers who live in the US
"hispanic" is not a race. It is is a group of people worldwide of all colors and origins who speak spanish
"mexican" is not a race but a nationality including several races
"American" is not a race, but rather a nationailty consisting of ALL races
"Illegals" is not a race, but rather an uspecified group of people from all nations and of all colors who COMMIT A CRIME by illegally entering our nation.
So here is my question to you: if a group consisting of ALL races wishes existing laws enforced against law breakers of ALL races, how is that "racist"?
Are you a news reporter of a propaganda writer? We've not had enough with the Dan Rathers and Jason Blairs in the last year?.

I like how that dipshit holds the sign saying "Who's the illegal" with a little man wearing a feather suit.

I'm no legal scholar by any means, but I know that breaking laws is illegal. And thus those people who live here illegally - that is, in violation of the laws of the country they are in - are "illegal." Illegals Aliens, Illegals, Illegal Immigrants, or as you prefer "Immigrants." Whatever you call someone who's sole purpose is to take advantage of our system of support such as our welfare, hospital system, and education system without contributing to said system because of their status as an illegal immigrant, they're still criminals.

And why can NO ONE here or anywhere else address the question of why Mexicans would rather leech off of America than fix their own country?

Is that a racist question that is beneath the great minds of the college crowd socialist movement?

Like I've said before, it would be great if everyone could just have kids, sleep and party all day and night without working, but that isn't the reality. Someone will get the bill. Right now it's those of us in America who are working and paying taxes and trying to achieve the simple goals we have set for ourselves in life without being burdened with the costs associated with supporting a legion of freeloaders. What is wrong with that? And what on earth would that have to do with race?

I hate working all the time, I hate paying taxes, I hate a lot of the things our government does. I'm not some conservative flag waving redneck who wants to shoot me some 'spics. Not by a long shot.

I just don't understand how anyone in their right mind could justify the burden that illegal immigrants are putting on our country. It makes no sense. My family emigrated here from Ireland only 4 generations ago. We assimilated, adopted the culture, and then prospered in this country. We didn't try to set up a seperatist country within a country and bend the system to fit our agenda of entitlement.

Seems like such a non-debatable issue to me. Which I guess it may be. Which may be why that kids wearing bandanas to cover their faces can only yell "racists!!!" to a bunch of people (some of whom are obviously hispanic themselves) rather than engage in actual debate.

Just my .02.

....if that's your 0.02...then you're overcharging.

We're going to let you in on a secret - it shouldn't be a secret, but few people dare to talk about it in today's politically correct world. White people created modern civilization and modern science - through a variety of liberal influences, we as a people have forgotten our greatness and our courage. We've been told that our beliefs are "cultural imperialism", and have been chided by self-declared intellectuals to accept other culture's standards for behavior. And what are those cultures like? In many cases, they're still in the Stone Age and live in mud huts - even today!

The values that created and shaped America made possible a prosperous, productive society. For the past several decades, we've seen a steady erosion of life in America. If we had built a house and someone suggested replacing the solid foundation with shifting sand, we would dismiss the idea as absurd, because nations, economies and cultures are built on values. The liberals would have us believe that those values can be changed and tinkered with, and the society won't be harmed. How wrong they are! Yet they aren't the ones paying the bills; you and I, and our children and grand children are paying them. And we'll continue paying them for the rest of our lives... unless we do something to change the present trends.

nazi: "White people created modern civilization and modern science"

...um, no...actually it was the Persians and Chinese....Europeans were lucky to stumble on it some hundreds of years later. So maybe the reason it is such a secret and politically incorrect to say is because it is just.....well....incorrect.

Wanna try again to find some facts to support your delusions?

Not to steal your fire or anything, but neither the Persians nor Chinese played a major role in creating the Greatest Country in the History of the Universe.

if you want a dishonest fantasy history, look up "Afrocentrism."

no one ever mentioned Scotland.
Bastards.

The Chinese and Persians??

Well let's see now....hmmm.

Chinese laborers did help to law railroad track when we were settling western America. They also built some nice Chinese restaurants in early San Francisco. That's about it for their contributions.

And the Persians (aka: Iranians) did what? About the only contribution I'm aware of is that they increased the exchange student population thereby allowing some of our alleged educational institutions like UCLA to become bloated.

The Mexicans claimed the American southwest for only

27 years

Now they feel they own it??

Bullshit Mexicans!

The Spanish were here wayyyyy longer than you were.
You ARE ASSHOLES!