AMY GOODMAN: As we continue our discussion of President Bush's inaugural address, let's hear a section of that speech.

PRESIDENT BUSHAmerica will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal, instead, is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom, and make their own way. The great objective of ending tyranny is the concentrated work of generations. The difficulty of the task is no excuse for avoiding it. America's influence is not unlimited; but fortunately for the oppressed, America's influence is considerable, and we will use it confidently in freedom's cause.

AMY GOODMAN: President Bush, his second inaugural address. Today we're joined by Gore Vidal, one of America's most respected writers and thinkers. Author of more than twenty novels, five plays. Author most recently of, Dreaming War and Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace. His latest book is, Imperial America: Reflections on the United States of Amnesia. Yesterday we caught up with Gore Vidal and I asked him his reaction to the inaugural address.

GORE VIDAL: Well, I hardly know where to end, much less begin. There's not a word of truth in anything that he said. Our founding fathers did not set us on a course to liberate all the world from tyranny. Jefferson just said, “all men are created equal, and should be,” etc, but it was not the task of the United States to “go abroad to slay dragons,” as John Quincy Adams so wisely put it; because if the United States does go abroad to slay dragons in the name of freedom, liberty, and so on, she could become “dictatress of the world,” but in the process “she would lose her soul.” That is what we -- the lesson we should be learning now, instead of this declaration of war against the entire globe. He doesn't define what tyranny is. I’d say what we have now in the United States is working up a nice tyrannical persona for itself and for us. As we lose liberties he’s, I guess, handing them out to other countries which have not asked for them, particularly; and what he says -- The reaction in Europe-–and I know we mustn’t mention them because they're immoral and they have all those different kinds of cheese–but, simultaneously, they're much better educated than we are, and they're richer. Get that out there: The Europeans per capita are richer than the Americans, per capita. And by the time this administration is finished, there won't be any money left of any kind, starting with poor social security, which will be privatized, so that is the last gold rush for (as they say) men with an eye for opportunity.

No, I would have to parse this thing line by line and have it in front of me. It goes in one ear and out the other as lies often do, particularly rhetorical lies that have been thought up by second-rate advertising men, which are the authors of this speech. It is the most un-American speech I’ve ever heard a chief executive give to the United States; and thanks at least to television, we were given every inaugural from Franklin Roosevelt on (and it's quite interesting to see who said what), and only one was as gruesome and as off-key as this, and that guy is Harry S. Truman, who’s being made into a hero because he fits into the imperial mode. He starts out his inaugural -- we're on top of the world we’re the richest country, the most powerful militarily, and what does he do? Within three lines Harry Truman is starting the Cold War, which the Russians were not starting. They thought they could live in peace because of their agreement at Yalta with his predecessor, Franklin Roosevelt, whose unfortunate death gave us Harry Truman and gave us the Cold War, which is now metastasized into a general war against any nation that this president of ours, if he is -- was elected, wants to commit us to, and we -- preemptive wars. That’s just never existed in our history, that a president – “Well, I think I'm going to take on Costa Rica. There may be some terrorists down there one day. Oh, they aren't there yet, but they're planning for it. And they’ve got bicarbonate of soda. Once you have that, you know, you can build all sorts of biochemical weapons.” This is just blather. Blather.

And that an American audience would sit there beside the capitol or reverently in front of their TV screens and watch this and not see the absurdity of what was being said -- absolute proof of a couple of things that I have felt, and most of us who are at all thoughtful feel: We’ve got the worst educational system of any first world country. We are shameful when we go abroad, because we know nothing. Just to watch the destruction of the archaeologists’ work at Babylon. Babylon is a center of our culture. Nobody knows that. Nobody knows what it is, except it's a wicked city that the lord destroyed. Well, it was the center of our civilization, the center of mathematics, of writing, of everything. And apparently our troops were allowed to go in and smash everything to bits. Why did they do it? Was it because they are mean bad boys and girls? No. They're totally uneducated. And their officers are sometimes mean and bad, and allow them to have a romp, as they also had in the prisons, none of which we heard about in the last election. We were too busy with homosexual marriage and abortion, two really riveting subjects. War and peace, of course, are not worth talking about. And civilization, God forbid that we ever commit ourselves to that.

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to Gore Vidal. He -- President Bush said in his speech: “Across the generations, we’ve proclaimed the imperative of self-government, because no one's fit to be a master, and no one deserves to be a slave. Advancing these ideals is the mission that created our nation. It's the honorable achievement of our fathers. Now it's the urgent requirement of our national security, and the calling of our time.”

GORE VIDAL: Well, proof of his bad education -- he seems not to know that the principle founders of the United States, from George Washington to Thomas Jefferson to Madison, were all slave holders. So, we started a country with half of the country quite prosperous because of black slaves, African slaves, who were not in the least happy about being slaves, but they had been captured, brought over here and sold back and forth around the country. So, I don't see how the founding fathers could have committed us to the principle that ‘no man should be a slave, and every man should be a master,’ or whatever the silly-Billy said. Well, this is a country based on slavery, is also based upon the dispossession of what we miscall the Indians. They were the native Americans, at least before -- long before our arrival. So, we were not dedicated to any of these principles. We were dedicated to making as much money and stealing as much land as we could and building up a republic, not a democracy. The word democracy was hated by the founding fathers. It does not appear at any point in the constitution, nor does it appear in any pleasant sense in the Federalist Papers. So, we are not a democracy, and here we are exporting it as though it were just something -- well, we just happened to make, a lot of democracy, and cotton and tin and stuff like that. So, let’s --let's do some exports of democracy. We don't have it, and most countries don't have it, and not many countries want it. Democracy was tried only once, and that was in the Fifth Century B.C., at Athens, and finally, they were overcome by an oligarchy from Sparta, and nobody ever tried again to establish a democracy in any country on earth. And if any history had been taught to the cheerleader from Andover -- I'm ashamed that I even went to the brother school Exeter nearby, where at least we were taught enough history not to make gaffs like that in public.

AMY GOODMAN: Gore Vidal, President Bush also said, “All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know the United States will not ignore your oppression or excuse your oppressors when you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you. Democratic reformers facing repression, prison or exile can know America sees you for who you are-- the future leaders of your few [free] country. The rulers of outlaw regimes can know that we still believe, as Abraham Lincoln did, ‘Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves and under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it.’”

GORE VIDAL: Oh, what bull. I notice all the help that we gave Mandela before he himself extricated his people from the white rule of the Boers and the English in South Africa. We went to great lengths to see that he was silenced, that he was not helped at any time. And we were -- Is that how we stood up for other countries trying to liberate themselves? We’ve never done that. We went into the first two world wars for self-aggrandizement. We did very well out of it. We’ve gone into Latin America, and every time that there's been a democratically elected government, from Arbenz in Guatemala in 1953 to Allende in Chile, we have played a vicious game. Sometimes we assassinate the president, sometimes we overthrow him. Sometimes -- all the time, eventually, we establish a military dictatorship. We’ve been doing that for 200 years. But, for a people that knows no history, does not want to know history, with a corrupt media that will not tell you the truth about anything going on in the world, what else could we have, but a dumb, cheerleader president?

AMY GOODMAN: But if it was Franklin Delano Roosevelt who said, “democratic reformers facing repression, prison, or exile can know, America sees you for who you are, the future leaders of your free country,” would you object?

FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT: I can only tell you that I feel your pain, and I know that you will be rulers one day. But meanwhile, I'm staying here in Washington, and you must look to your own future, and your own freedom.

AMY GOODMAN: Yes.

GORE VIDAL: That's Franklin Delano Roosevelt. The fact he said that meant that he was on the side of that; but we never did anything about it. Roosevelt never made a move, even when it came to the time of great tyranny, when his state department–I must say he didn't like it–but his state department turned away the infamous ship in which the Jews trying to escape Europe and Hitler were sent back. That's how we helped out.

AMY GOODMAN: What is your hope for the future, as President Bush inaugurated his second term with this speech?

GORE VIDAL: I don't see much future for the United States, and I put it on economic grounds. Forget moral grounds. We're far beyond any known morality, and we are embarked upon a kind of war against the rest of the world. I think that the thing that will save us, and it will probably come pretty fast, when they start monkeying around with Social Security, that will cause unrest. Meanwhile, the costs of the wars the cost of rebuilding the cities immediately after we knock them down, if we didn't knock them down, we wouldn't have to put them back up again, but that would mean that there was no work for Bechtel and for Halliburton. We are going to go broke. The dollar loses value every day. I live part of the year in Europe, which is always held against me. What a vicious thing to do, to have a house in Italy; but I also have one in Southern California. We are a declining power economically in the world, and the future now clearly belongs to China, Japan, and India. They have the population, they have the educational systems. They have the will. And they will win. And we will -- we only survive now by borrowing money from them in the form of treasury bonds which very soon we won't have enough revenue to redeem, much less service. So, I put it down to economic collapse may save the United States from its rulers.

AMY GOODMAN: President Bush in this inaugural address, and in his second term, can you make comparisons to Richard Nixon, and won by a landslide, much more than Bush, in terms of how he beat his opponent, and yet ultimately is forced to resign?

GORE VIDAL: Well, let us hope history repeats itself, and there's a possibility that the American people will get fed up with endless war, and endless deaths coming out -- American deaths. That's all we care about. We don't care about foreigners dying. But that is getting on people's nerves. I think that he thinks, and many of the American people appear to think, that we're in a movie. Lousy movie, but it's just a movie. And, once the final credits run, all those dead people, who were just extras anyway, will stand up and come home, or go back to the old actors’ home. It isn't a movie we're in. It's real life. And these are real dead people. And there are more and more of them, and the world won't tolerate it. So, he might very well end up like Mr. Nixon. Nixon at least when he ran again, curiously enough, was rated among the most liberal and progressive of our presidents in the 20th century. Not that he really was; it's just that he felt domestic affairs were best left alone. Let labor unions and capital worry about that while the president prosecuted foreign wars. He loved foreign affairs because it was fun. You got to make a lot of trips and see people in fancy uniforms and hear “Hail to the Chief” in various tunes. That was Nixon's take. And then, of course, once he got in -- into war, he couldn't get out. Didn't try very hard to get out. He wanted to be victorious. Well, he wasn't victorious. Then he lied and cheated. This one lies and cheats, too. So far he’s not had his Watergate. Let us hope that there is one looming.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you take heart from the opposition, from the resistance on the ground, from the grassroots protests?

GORE VIDAL: Well, you know, I spent three years in the second world war in the Pacific, and I was born at West Point, and I have some affinity for the army; and what I am hearing, the tom-toms that are coming not only from those who have returned to the United States, particularly reservists, but what I also hear from overseas, is that there’s great distress and dislike of this government, and certainly of this war, which is idly done. And everybody is at risk with insufficient armature -- arms, and no motivation at all except the vanity of a -- of the lowest grade of politicians that we’ve ever had in the White House. They are disturbed, and I can see that there may be suddenly something coming from them once they get back home, if they can get back home. They may turn things around.

AMY GOODMAN: And, in general, young people in this country protesting the inauguration, for example. More than 10,000 people out in the streets, almost -- although there was almost no coverage except for Pacifica and independent media of those voices. People -- hosts on CNN saying they didn't want to ‘over-exaggerate’ the images that would be so easy to go to, so they just didn't.

GORE VIDAL: Or be honest about them. The famous February, a year ago, when everybody demonstrated. I spoke to 100,000 people in Hollywood Boulevard. And the L.A. Times, which is better than most of the establishment papers, said there's just hardly anybody there. However, they were undone by the photograph taken of -- when I was up on the platform at very end of Hollywood Boulevard with La Brea in back of me and way up ahead Vine Street, you saw 100,000 people. You saw what they looked like, unlike New York where they got everybody into side streets so you couldn't see them at all in a photograph, because they just didn't show up. So, out here, a makeup man at the Times helped the cause.

AMY GOODMAN: As the Democratic Party chooses a new leader, do you have words of advice for the direction?

GORE VIDAL: Remember that the United States -- the people of the country have always been isolationists, a word which has been demonized, thrown out, an isolationist is somebody who believes in a flat earth and is racist and so forth and so on. Well, none of that is true. Isolationists -- Most of the left in the second world war, from Norman Thomas on to Burton K. Wheeler, were progressive Americans, the very best liberal Americans were anti-war. We have never been for imperial foreign wars. We have to be dragged screaming into them, as we were after Pearl Harbor and there was a lot of machinations going on to make sure that that happened. And it goes on all the time. Events are made so horrible people like Saddam and so on are demonized, and we all have to immediately begin by saying how awful he is for 25 minutes before we can get down to the fact that he was no threat to the United States, no threat at all. He was not involved with al Qaeda. He was not involved with 9/11. He was not. He was not. You can say it a million times, but there you have a president with the help of the most corrupt media in my lifetime bouying his words across the land and telling lies about the – ‘We're 45 minutes away from being blown up by the weapons of mass destruction that this master of evil has in his hands.’ To which the answer is: Why? Why would he do that? There must be some motivation. You see, they are now beyond motivation, and that is insanity. So, an insane government is not one that you can look to with any confidence.

AMY GOODMAN: Gore Vidal, speaking to us from California. His latest book, Imperial America: Reflections on the United States of Amnesia.

To purchase an audio or video copy of this entire program, click here for our new online ordering or call 1 (800) 881-2359.

www.democracynow.org

The only people who don't understand that "Democracy Now" is a PsyOps operation that is designed to SUPPORT the Bush dictatorship are the people who are not paying attention to it.

We're living in an age of PsyOps, and "Democracy Now" is definitely part of the operation:

The Age of PsyOps. The Washington Post, Democracy Now and the North Tower:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/01/309292.shtml

The most obvious example of "Democracy Now" functioning on behalf of power was in its programming immediately after last November's "Presidential election":

'Democracy Now' propaganda for electoral fraud and Fallujah massacre:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/303212.shtml

The irony is that "Democracy Now" isn't even particularly hiding its strong connection to the US intelligence community. There have been a number of former members of the FBI/CIA who have been on the program, given incredibly soft (and fawning) questions from Amy Goodman, and otherwise treated as heroes:

1. Richard Clarke ("former" intelligence czar; oversaw sending WTC rubble away);
2. Sam Gardiner ("retired", Air force colonel);
3. Mel Douglas ("retired", CIA);
4. Sibel Edmonds ("former" FBI "whistleblower" who supports the official story of 9/11);
5. Scott Ritter ("retired" military intelligence; supports the official story of 9/11);
6. Ray McGovern ("retired", CIA, supports the official story of 9/11);
7. Larry Diamond. (Hoover Institute, Coalition Provisional Authority in Baghdad)

So, you have an endless parade of intelligence officials pretending to be defectors from the spying industry on "Democracy Now" to receive Amy Goodman's gushing praise. You also have the spectacle of "Democracy Now" actually facilitating last November's coup d'etat and massacre of Fallujah. Then there is the rather obvious PsyOps campaign that "Democracy Now" executed with Bush's second inaugural.

Meanwhile, most of what passes for the progressive community in the US refuses to reconsider its own level of indoctrination about "Democracy Now".

This is a very sad and troubling state of affairs.

If Amy Goodman only interviewed people who are spokespersons for the Michael Ruppert view of 9/11 she would be interviewing the same five or six people every day. Especially in view of the fact that the above interviews had little or nothing to do with 9/11, that would be exceedingly silly.

What is really funny is that, for the most part, the only postings that oppose democracy (in any meaningful sense of the word) on this board seem to come from you and your fellow cheetos boys.

That's right, BA. It's not anti-democratic for al Zarquawi to blow up polling centers in Iraq. This is his "freedom of expression". And it's not contrary to democracy for people like Meyer London to side with al Zarquawi. They both hate the racist state of Israel, which we all know is the only non-democratic nation in the Middle East. So you see, people like Zarquawi, the Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, Meyer London, Hammas, and the PLO are all about expressing themselves democratically. They just prefer expressing themselves differently than you or I. Where as we prefer expressing our democratic rights by voting, these “democrats” prefer killing people that disagree with them. This is the very essence of leftist democracy. It’s called “Totalitarianism”.

That's right, BA. It's not anti-democratic for al Zarquawi to blow up polling centers in Iraq. This is his "freedom of expression". And it's not contrary to democracy for people like Meyer London to side with al Zarquawi. They both hate the racist state of Israel, which we all know is the only non-democratic nation in the Middle East. So you see, people like Zarquawi, the Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, Meyer London, Hammas, and the PLO are all about expressing themselves democratically. They just prefer expressing themselves differently than you or I. Where as we prefer expressing our democratic rights by voting, these “democrats” prefer killing people that disagree with them. This is the very essence of leftist democracy. It’s called “Totalitarianism”.

I'm afraid you two birds of a feather have it wrong; we know exactly what is going on - the Israelis are massacring Palestinians in order the maintain and expand their racist, apatheid entity; Bush invaded Iraq to get control of that nation's oil for himself and his fellow oil billionaires and at least 300,000 people have died as a result; Bush is planning a totally unprovoked invasion of Iran, not different in any respect from Hitler's invasion of Poland; Bush stole two elections; and the claims of the United States to stand for the expansion of "freedom" around the world is horse manure in view of its past support for pre-1989 South Africa, for Iran under the Shah, for Iraq when it invaded Iran, for various murderous dictators in South Korea and all over Latin America, its murder of Lumumba in the Congo, the fascist coup in Chile, its kidnapping of the the head of the Haitian government, its alliance with the feudal monarchies of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and its support of the suppression of militant labor unions all over the globe. You two put together make a pile of crap.

I'm sick of all the leftist crying around here. Meyer London, with her incessant, shrill whines and moans ... you'd think this was a grade B porno movie and she's faking an orgasm... It's entertaining to watch, but does not do very much for one's spirit. It's like bad science fiction ... not very scientific ... and really, really BAD fiction!

I've been working on my imitation of Meyer London... it’s quite easy … just sort of blend the facts and fallacies of history all together in sort of a pro-socialist rant, and throw in an occasional whine… here, I’ll demonstrate:

Ahem …

YOU NEO-NAZI APARTHEID CHEETOS BOYZ AND YOUR INFATUATION WITH WELLINGTONS AND TIGHTS … REMINDS ME OF THE TIME HITLER INVADED THE RHINELAND … AND THOSE CHILEANS AND SOUTH AMERICANS … PROVIDING AID AND COMFORT TO OUSTED NAZI SCUM … LIKE THE TIME ALEXANDER AT THE BATTLE OF ISSIUS … IT’S A WELL KNOWN FACT THAT ALEXANDER HAD A THING FOR JACKBOOTS … AND THOSE NASTY HESSIANS! IF IT HADN’T BEEN FOR THE WRITINGS OF MAX VON EELKING THEIR EVIL JACKBOOTED DEEDS MIGHT HAVE BEEN LOST TO HISTORY! THE THICK BOOT OF THE MIGHTY CAPITALIST OPPRESSORS PLACED SQUARELY UPON THE NECKS OF THE WORKING CLASS BARING DOWN UTIL THEIR EYES POP FROM THE SOCKETS AND THE BLOOD OOZES FROM THE NOW EMPTY CAVATIES IN THEIR SKULLS! THE TRAGEDY IS ALMOST UNSPEAKABLE………SPEAKING OF SKULLS, THE SKULL AND BONES CREW ONCE AGAIN MANAGES TO STEAL ANOTHER ELECTION IN THIS WORTHLESS COUNTRY. OF COURSE ITS A WORTHLESS COUNTRY! IF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAD ANY WORTH AT ALL KUCINICH WOULD BE PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW!


Sounds just like her, don't it?

Too bad the glory days of Vaudville are over; you two clowns would have made a great team - Benny Mussolini and Frank Franco do the soft shoe and present fascism as something funny. Of course, if you weren't egged off the stage the proverbial hook would soon have reached out and brought you back offstage.

Watch it now Meyer. You're dating yourself. Of course, it only serves considering the washed up and outdated principles you espouse. The younger generations have learned well from the lessons of you free love pot smoking hippys. Those days of sitting around the campfires singing kumbaya and gathering at the mall in DC to curse your country are long over, Meyer. People fly the flag high and proudly now. Communism took it in the shorts, old pal.

Well, at least an aged old coot like you got to live long enough to see what a waste of time and energy were the ideological beliefs of his pitiable life.

Say Jack, when you were in the 8th grade (a year or so ago) didn't the teacher tell you about the anti-globalization mass protests in Seattle and other cities? Or about the Indian revolt in southern Mexico?
Or about the new leftist surge in Latin America - in places like Brazil and Venezuela, which used to be virtual colonies of US corporations? Or about the growing radicalization of the South Korean labor movement? Or about the mushrooming of anti-capitalist newspapers and magazines in the United States - very similar to what happened in the 1960's and 1970's? Wake up, man. You can't keep your head in the sand forever. The left is the wave of the future - Bush is a relic of the past; he'll be remembered with Calvin Coolidge as a historical oddity. Like you.

I think it is *you* that needs to wake up, Meyer London. Our President just got a renewed mandate from the intelligent folks of our great nation. On top of that, the rightwing now controls all three branches of our government. So you see, it is the left that is on it's way out.

I recently came from South America and believe me, globalization is alive and well in Ecuador, Bolivia, and Argentina. Those are the places I visited on my last trip.

And in junior high I was fortunate enough to attend a private educational institute, where all the riffraff were excluded, and where teachers were enlightened enough to not waste time reviewing the trivial leftist movements like those in Seattle or where ever. History has proven that to study those insignificant anomalies would be a gross misuse and waste of valuable study time.

It's not the 60s anymore, but sometimes it feels like we're slipping back to the Gilded Age, but on a global basis.

What unrestricted greed created was widespread poverty in the cities, cyclical depressions, and an income gap between rich and poor. This created an upsurge of communist and anarchist organizing in the industrialized countries. It also helped fuel fascism, especially the populist kind that diverted anger at the upper class into anger against "foreigners" and ethnic minorities.

It led to the Great Depression - and to the greatest surge of radicalism this country has ever seen.

You forgot to include Suharto in Indonesia, Marcos in the Philippines, the neoliberals in New Zealand and Mexico, Pakistan, the Taliban, and the government of Turkey. We trained the Contras and El Salvadorean death squads at the School of the Americas.

The real winner of all these asshole dictators, though, is Papa Doc Duvalier. Yeah, there's a real ally.

America needs to get some guts, and support democracy that might oppose capitalism. Help people get some independence.

BA, I think you meant "Pinochet" in Chile. Allende was the socialist, and he was elected democratically. The US supported a coup to overthow Allende by Pinochet.

Subsequently, it's become a bastion of neoliberalism... and the public have suffered massive personal debt for it. Personal debt levels there rival that of the US. The people are free, but enslaved to the credit cards and banks.

Here's an article where the CIA admits their role in the coup:
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/09/19/us.cia.chile.ap/

In 2000, some thirty years after LYING about its involvement in overthrowing a democracy, the CIA fesses up.

BA - you're a troll and an apologist for tyranny.

Maybe another great depression is in order. Starve off all the riffraff, like Meyer London and ilk, and thin out the gene pool.

Just what we need to kick this country into high gear and rev up for another round of globalization...

War and economic depression. That must make many people eager to follow them. Well, at least they are being truthful in saying what capitalism has to offer the world. They are just like their ideological fathers - Hitler and Mussolini.

That they are, Meyer. That they are. Just open your eyes and look around. Bush with a renewed mandate. Republican House and Senate.

Far more so that following your socialism under threat of "re-education" for non-compliance.

If anyone is following you they are going to the Shelter for Brain Damaged Rednecks or Saint Mary's Charitable Dispensary for the Needy Mentally Disturbed. One place on one will be following you is to the recruiting office - you prefer to see mixed-up teenagers do your dying and killing for you in Iraq while you watch it and cheer it on with a beer in one hand and your penis in the other.

You're month late, and a neuron short.

One good thing about a "war and depression" political platform is this: anyone running on it can keep their political promises -- war debts create depressions.

Well, you have to understand that BA still has not accepted the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment of the 18th Century or even the February Revolution that overthrew the Czar in 1917. He's still using the old calendar that most of Europe discarded during the Renaissance and that Russia discarded after the overthrow of Czarism. BA is still living in 1099 AD and doesn't take to change.

It really takes a committed reactioary to use outdated calendar systems.

If only he'd renounce electricity as a government plot.

Food, clothing, and transportation were produced prior to capitalism.

Electricity was standardized by the government. There were competing systems, AC, DC, different frequencies, etc. We standardized on 60Hz AC, and you can get 3-phase as well.

Edison advocated for 60Hz AC, and it's used to this day. The Edison company is still around.

Electrification was undertaken by the government during the New Deal era. They built dams to produce it, installed wires to carry it, and made companies to manage it. It was pretty socialist.

Also, the iPod may be "capitalist" but the latest version of OS X is based on BSD, which was an operating system developed at a public university (Berkeley), and since licensed pretty freely. The foundation of Apple's latest operating system are vaguely socialist, inasmuch as there's no "rent" charged on that particular piece of intellectual property.

Next time, pick some product that capitalism creates with minimal government intervention, like... oh... cocaine.

Yeah. The cavemen transported, fed, and clothed themselves by walking over to the saber-toothed tiger, clubbing it on the head, skinning it, and gorging on its raw flesh.

Then capitalism came along and revolutionized the whole process. God bless it.

Well, there is prostitution - although even with that the cops often have to be paid off. Maybe loansharking,
dog fighting in Kentucky or cock fighting around here.

I wouldn't argue that capitalism "created" anyhthing per se. Capitalism has simply revolutionized the process through which all of man's greatest inventions are meted out to the waiting masses.

Capitalism is, in essence, the mother of all inventions.

Leftism is then, by definition, the mother of all failures. It's how poverty and corruption are meted out to its unwilling recipients.

...gee, such nuanced insight from a moron...

...whodda thunk it?

Wuz the capital of Argentina, moron?

I know you are but what am I?

...oooo, that one must have rendered the jaggoff silent while writhing in the crushing grip of reason....

Einstein, Martin Luther King, Leo Tolstoy, H.G. Wells, Beatrice and Sidney Webb, Sartre. Helen Keller, Upton Sinclair, Paul Robeson, Theodore Dreiser, Emil Zola,
Bayard Rustin, H. Phillip Randolph, Simone de Beauvoir - all dopes of course. They were all socialists, anarchists, or opposed to capitalism and its values in some fundamental way.

einstein and h.g.wells lived during a time when socialism didn't yet PROVE to be a failure. We can excuse these great ones their unfortunate times.
most likely they would be staunch enterprisers and supporters of Bush, today.

Prove it Meyer.

The chances of that are about equal to the chances of BA or Jack being invited to join the MENSA Society or the Humanitarian Hall of Fame.

I still maintain that that statement is unadulterated bullshit. And since it was offered without a shred of evidence, I am of course right ... as usual.

You are of course an ignorant ass, as usual. Go read some biographies of these people. It will be a good break from Soldier of Fortune, Maxim, Teen People, Handgun Magazine, and comic books.

YOU made the assertion that Einstein et. al. were anarchists (absurd) and it is up to YOU to prove it.

Get busy.

jaggoff: "I still maintain that that statement is unadulterated bullshit. "

YOU made the assertion now it is up to YOU to PROVE IT!

Get busy.

Maxims and axioms require no proof.

Are you sure you don't mean Maxisms? I think you and Max are the same clown. Even if not, you and he would have trouble proving gravity exists by jumping off a cliff.
By the way, I hope you and the other cheetos boys are thrilled with the strong showing of the Shiites in the recent election. Is that why all those Americans and Iraqis died - to put a pro-Iranian governent in power? Looks like the joke may be on you, Bush and the Israelis. Sharon will just love having Iranian missles fired at him - from western Iraq.

You really don't have a clue, do you? What sort of despicable person gloats about the deaths of heroes who died fighting for freedom? Only a miscreant would wallow in such filth.

Those men and women have given their lives for the greater good. A tremendous blow has been struck to the non-functioning gap of nations who, because they're stuck in the Middle Ages, have refused to recognize the wonderful achievements and advancements that can be obtained in true democratic and capitalist society.

Everywhere globalization has been applied (Japan, Australia, Eastern Europe, and North America) great wealth and freedom has reigned. In places where globalization has taken root (China, Russia, Western Europe) progress has been steadfast.

The rest of the world is a backwards cesspool of violence, poverty, socialism, and chaos. And America, under the governance of our visionary president, has exacted much needed change deep in the heart of that chaotic Middle East.

In ten years, we'll be hailing George W. Bush as a god, with his portrait on the mantle right next to Ronald Reagan (may his soul rest in peace).

And while we're making absurd accusations about anonymous personalities on the internet, I may as well go ahead and assert that you are obviously Professor Ward Churchill himself, seeing as it wasn't that long ago you were running around this forum calling people "Eichmanns". Looks like we have a celebrity in the house, folks. Hey Ward, do you think you’re going to be able to keep your job after popping off at the keyboard like that? You’re not very bright, are you son?

I realize of course, that it’s likely you’re in fact not Mr. Churchill. More likely just an oblivious buffoon who decided, in light of his own vapid personality, to lift Mr. Churchill’s lines and claim them as your own. But I figured “what the hell” as long as we’re making absurd claims. And it’s nice to know that you have such an upstanding role model who is held in such high regard in his community.

And while I’m on a roll, I may as well chime in on your comments about Einstein being a socialist, since discovering gravity was a theme in your last insipid post. Yes, Einstein wrote a couple of papers on Socialism, but little more than a little left-leaning could have been expected from the man considering he had to live through the nastiness of two world wars. And I certainly don’t think his heralding some of the better qualities of Socialism, in what amounts to know more than fluff piece as far as compositions go, hardly qualifies him as a full blown Marxist socialist as you erroneously assert. And if you’d like to think otherwise, feel free. Just remember that Einstein spent the last decades of his life in seclusion insanely searching for some non-existent “Unified Field Theory” like a madman who lost his car keys. So if by some chance Einstein was a full-blown socialist, that would be the second of at least two positions he took during his lifetime which are now provably wrong, Mr. Churchill.

Mehoffer, I cannot believe you wrote such a baseless and ill-informed description of capitalism and leftism.

Capitalism is mostly about money, lending it, and using it to start businesses. It's also about applying technology to natural resources to produce things via wage labor. (Lately, it's been about using capital and wage labor to create "experiences" through media, architecture, and psychology.)

That's why it's described as CAPITALism. The capital investment is integral.

When serfs built carts to move stuff around, they were not doing it for wages. That's not really capitalism.

When society hated money lenders, that was not a capitalist time. Capitalism requires money lending.

The era when socialism was popular was a capitalist time. It remains popular today, because it's still a very capitalist time; I have no reason to think that any of those folks would support the unrestricted expansion of capitalism, any more than, say, Nelson Mandela, or the Pope.

Capitalism has already failed. It was reformed in the 20th century, and opted to support the social democratic state to provide welfare. In exchange, the states are pretty classically liberal about business.

The expansion of capitalism into China is interesting, because the boom is a bubble founded on direct foreign investment. That means China is selling itself off. The trade off, I think, is that the state will become more authoritarian, and model the more dictatorial capitalist nations in the world. The CP unions are already saying they'll do what they can to KEEP WAGES LOW. Now, what kind of union is that?

If you all want some indication of Einstein's politics, look at the link:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/History/Einstein_Socialist.html

Here's a quote: "I regard class distinctions as unjustified, and, in the last resort, based on force."

And another quote:
"Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The results of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital, the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society.... Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights."

He's a socialist. His writing isn't anti-American, but it's about as socialist as anything you'd read in a socialist political journal.

Mehoffer, if you think he's just "left leaning" then you really don't know what socialism is. Historically, socialists have been more moderate than communists and anarchists. (Though there are some moderate communists too.) Most countries have a socialist party, and in many, they have seats in parliament or congress.

Speaking of unified field theory... Dr. Michio Kaku, one of those string field theory guys, has a show on KPFK and public radio, and is outspoken about political issues and space. Maybe there's some connection between cosmology and politics.

more irrational wrote:

"Speaking of unified field theory... Dr. Michio Kaku, one of those string field theory guys, has a show on KPFK and public radio, and is outspoken about political issues and space. Maybe there's some connection between cosmology and politics."

String theory is far more fiction than it is science. It's mathematical manipulation. How many dimension are the string theorists using these days to justify their proofs? When last I checked they were up to 11. 11 dimensions! 7 of which obviously don't exist. String theory can not be proven in any laboratory and is therefore philosophy at best.

Asking a string theorist's opinion on politics is of no more use than asking a socialist his opinon capitalism. It's a waste of time. They'll yammer on an say nothing of substance. It's what they're good at.

¼
He knows so very much about so very little, But he is an authority on it.
Most probably due to his many years of study and vast certification on the subject.

He seems to have a pointless comment on every topic. And rambles for days. I especially like his screen name, as it's an obvious play on words. "more rational" but he isn't. Very witty.

☺

...a certified idiot like this jaggoff is qualified to sound stupid on any topic he chooses...

..and he NEVER dissapoints.

...isn't it obvious that he is that doggie Max?

...same doggie, same bark, different name.

The analysis offered by this author is actually rational. Unlike the other twits like Jack or BA or fresca or any of their minions of trolls.

...............................................nerraW revetahW

...nice, but I think pig latin would be more appropriate for you cheeto-spooks.

Although he was messed up about Libertarianism. A little more work on him and I'm sure he would have gone socialist.

Shoved it right up that one's ass ... and SNAPPED IT OFF!

This place has quieted down a lot since those days. Probably because LA IMC tracks IP addresses now.

And as I recall, it was Diogenes who was consistantly handing your own ragged and bleeding ass back to you. Don't stick it out so often in the line o fire.

imc is a big bad threat. oooooo.

like fer sure.

oooooooo.

real in that ego, assclown.

oooo.

No one is gloating about the deaths of US troops, who were victims of imperialism, not heroes. What I was doing was pointing out the irony (obviously beyond the mental powers of someone like you to see) of their deaths resulting in a pro-Iranian political grouping winning or doing very, very well in an election presided over by the US Army and the USMC at the same time that George "Oatmeal Brains" Bush is proclaiming that Iran is the worst terrorist nation in the world, that its people need to be freed from their government, but that the Iraqi election was a big "success." Is that a simple enough explanation for you?
I'll help clear up some of your other mental confusion: I mentioned Einstein, King, Tolstoy, and the others as people who were socialists, anarchists, or individuals who rejected the basic values of capitalism. At no time did I claim that they were Marxists, although some of them, like Paul Robeson, were. Got it now, or does someone have to explain it in comic book form for you? Now go back and read Maxim; they may be featuring Ann Coulter or Laura Ingraham this week.

Well, some of the ancient Greek and Roman gods were bufoons or knaves. Since Bushy Tail qualifies as both he may be named a god if these two religions make a big come-back. I don't think that Alexander or Troy, ranked by some critics as the worst two films of the year, are going to accomplish that, though.

How I would love to hear a radio debate about politics between Ward Churchill and any on of the cheetos boys, or between Einstein and one of their fifties McCarthyite counterparts about unified field theory. Or about politics.

the cement wins hands down!

Spoken like a true piece of crap leftist who’s never served his country a day in his miserable, worthless life.

I served in the military for TEN YEARS. No, I wasn’t in combat. But my life was on the line nearly every single day. And had my President or my country required it, I would have gladly laid down my life without hesitation. And it all that time I can’t remember EVER asking the leftists to speak for me.

Further I recall knowing quite well that:

1. I served at the discretion of the President of the United States.
2. That I wasn’t in the Boy Scouts of America. That I was in fact in the military, which is by definition an instrument of death.
3. That I had willingly volunteered of my own accord.
4. That I could be killed at any moment simply by the inherent nature of the job.

I’m pretty confident that the overwhelming majority of my colleagues knew these things, too. But we did the job unquestioningly. Because we are American. We know the price of freedom and we know the word is more than a glittering generality.

Some people are givers and some people are takers. Those people who have given the ultimate sacrifice are the ultimate givers. They are in fact heroes.

People like Meyer London who have never had to fight a day in their miserable lives for their freedom are the ultimate takers. Leaches on our society. Worthless. Meyer London owes his freedom to others. And he’d never really fight for his own freedom, let alone any elses’.

This explains so much.

Security. We hear that alot, now days.
-After assaulting through a target, we put a security round in everybody's head-
How reassuring to know the training our military is receiving about security. I can hardly wait until these individuals come home and enter the law enforcement culture. patrol or prison guard, take your choice.

Wuz wrong. You don't like euphemisms?