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Victory Against Racist Store in Los Angeles

by Julia Wallace Saturday, Jan. 15, 2005 at 6:07 PM
love_supreme@excite.com (310) 404-6729

All Phone Wholesale had signs on its store fronts which said " Palestinians are Pigs, murderous scum Pigs" and more. This is an article about the campagin against the store and its recent victory

In Our Hands is Placed a Power

By Julia Wallace

Right before a planning committee meeting, Progressive Alliance, a socialist group based in Santa Monica had its weekly meeting one of the members said he parked in front of a store which had signs in its windows reading, " Palestinians are Pigs, murderous scum Pigs" and called Arabs " Rag head terrorist pigs". We were naïve enough to think that a racist bigot would not dare poke their heads out in Santa Monica.. After the meeting we walked to the store ( All Phone Wholesale 2919 Pico Blvd http://www.allphone.com/) and saw that it was true. This started our campaign against All Phone Wholesale.

Less than two weeks later we presented an idea of a protest to a mass meeting at Santa Monica college. We decided on September 23rd to have a protest during the day first marching through the campus and then to her store. We also found out that the store owner Bunnie Meyer was does business with Samsung so we assigned someone to write them a letter saying we would protest their business too if they continued to do business with them. We also contacted groups such as the Muslim Public Affairs Council, Imam Faith Center, Women in Black, and the National Lawyers Guild and others and received a good response. We also posted an announcement on indymedia.com.

The day of the protest we started with 30 people but by the time we marched around the campus that number grew to about 50. We marched down Pico and when we got there we had a crowd of people waiting from Women in Black, the National Lawyers Guild and of course Santa Monica Police Department. A rough end count is 70 people. We had several people speak and I led some chants. Then Bunnie Meyer began to scream at us with her bullhorn, however, because she was inside of the building screaming through the window we couldn't understand what she was saying. We beckoned her to come outside only to be confronted with a very strange, mentally unstable person. I remember her calling us "Hamas suicide bombers". She retired back inside and but later screamed through the window again. Someone suggested we listen to her. But her signs said more than enough! After 45 minutes we marched back to Santa Monica College. I later found out through one of the Legal Observers we had from the National Lawyers Guild that Meyer said to a police officer, " If one of them [protesters ]comes into my store I will shoot them". In the end CityBeat did an article on the protest http://www.lacitybeat.com/article.php?id=1288&IssueNum=70 . Besides that not much press.

On our way back to the college we saw some construction workers working on the street. They were sympathetic and told us, "The real person you should go after is the Lares family, they own that whole block". Luckily one of our protestors Alice Wallace is a real estate agent. She was able to confirm that the Lares family, a Mexican family which has been on that corner since 1968 owns the property All Phone Wholesale was located on. http://www.laresrestaurant.com/. She gave us their information including their home address.

After 2 months we had not heard anything from Samsung and it looked like Bunnie Meyer would not take down her signs. We talked with Jeremy Prickett, a member of Labors Militant Voice, a socialist organization myself and others belong to http://www.laborsmilitantvoice.com/ and he suggested that we expose the landlord to the Santa Monica community. We planned another protest/march similar to the one in September only this time we would publicize the fact that Lares was doing business with a racist. We had decided to give them a chance by politely presenting a letter to them about Bunnie Meyer and her signs. They ignored our warning. The Muslim Public Affairs Council held a press conference in front of the store as well. They were able to get mass based groups such as the Anti-Defamation League to support us and condemn Meyer. They were also able to get network television stations to cover the issue. None of these however fazed Bunnie Meyer.

The next protest was mid day and we managed to gather up around 40 people from Santa Monica College again and then marched to the restaurant two stores up. We started chanting and telling the customers to come out of the store. The manager came out and we asked him what he thought about the situation. He said Bunnie Meyer's "pays her rent on time". We asked him if he knew that Meyer had a sign which said, "Mexicans are a bunch of Third World circus freaks" (the manager is Mexican) he reminded us…"she pays her rent on time" and that, "their hands are tied". We walked to All Phone and had a demonstration there. We passed the bullhorn to anyone who wanted to speak. A man talked about how the signs hit close to home for him. Bunnie Meyer mentioned in the CityBeat article that she is a member of the Jewish Defense League. This organization tried to burn down a Mosque in 2001. The man was in the mosque when the bomb was found. We also had Shireen from the Muslim Public Affairs council speak about the issue.

Unlike the last protest Bunnie Meyer didn't not come out of her hole, we called her cell phone ( the number is located on the website ) and she said, the police advised her not to(!). We returned to Lares restaurant and the daughter of the owners tried to sneak behind the protest though an alleyway, maybe she only wanted to talk to one of us privately. Those of us who saw her called her out. She started telling us, "We need to go back to school and study the law". We got her to agree that she did not like the signs and then we talked her into saying that Lares would not uphold the lease. We learned then that Lares was a more effective target than All Phone Wholesale because Meyer's customers probably placed orders over the phone rather than visiting the store but the Lares restaurant was dependent on a loyal stream of customers.

A week and a half after that we had a Friday night protest in front of Lares restaurant only. The restaurant was almost full. We were a crowd was 20 strong with many of the same organizations plus a few more who heard about the protest from an announcement made on KPFK. Josh Saxe led the protest chanting that the restaurant is racist for not criticizing Meyer and exposed the Lares family to their customers. Telemundo and KTLA 5 were also there interviewing people. With all the press and shouting we were able to turn customers away and make people actually leave the restaurant. The landlord himself, Jessie Lares came out to ask us nicely to leave. He was so polite and friendly! He tried to get our sympathy but the crowd would not back down. He is the same person who blew us off when we politely presented the letter! Then his wife came outside with less congeniality. We grew even louder. Some big guys who were associated with the Lares clan confronted us at the door. They tried to intimidate us and threatened violence. We refused to leave. After 2 hours of chanting outside of Lares we reconvened at the 99 cent store on the corner. A group was selected which would meet with the landlord and try to pressure him to pressure Meyer. Although legally we couldn't not force Bunnie to take down the signs we made it clear to the landlord that we would not stop until Meyer gave in. We also planned another committee meeting for that following Monday to decide what to do next. We had the Lares home address and were prepared to make a "house call" if necessary.

An hour before the Monday meeting we learned that Bunnie Meyer, removed almost all of her signs because of pressure from the landlord. "We stand with Israel" is still there. She wrote a letter apologizing to the landlord for getting him involved, she also said that when we " Palestinian pigs are dancing in the streets [because of the news] that she hopes we are hit with a Humvee so we can met 70 virgins in heaven". After letting us read the letter the landlord said we had crucified him (?!), that he did nothing wrong and he didn't agree with the store signs either. Bunnie also wrote that she would be relocating to San Diego where her life would be less stressful. -If anyone reading this is located in San Diego, here is a possible target-.

None of us have illusions that we have changed the nature of racism or halted in any way the slimy undercurrent of racism in society. To end racism would mean an end to the economic and political system we are all subjected to, that is capitalism. Today more than ever the government has taken a two pronged attack on people in America in terms of race. It uses the fear of unemployment to ferment hatred against Latinos and conjures up hatred against Arabs and Muslims. With these newly found victims of bigotry the government has taken away civil liberties and saturated corporations with profit while we are expected to scramble amongst ourselves whatever may be left. Bunnie Meyer has only bought into the scheme a little more.

But what I learned and I think many other people saw in this campaign is the power of mobilization. Legally, we did not have a case to make Bunnie Meyer take down her signs down and even if we did the procedure would have taken years killing a momentum. If we took on a letter writing campaign our work would have ended up in a garbage cans of Samsung and Lares. If we had a series of forums on the issue at Santa Monica College it would have "raised awareness" but the signs on the store would be still be there and Bunnie Meyer would feel vindicated instead of "stressed". None of us had been involved in a community based campaign before. The leaders of the protest ranged from committed socialists who only had experience on college campuses, to people whose only other political experience were the latest anti-war protests. We were inexperienced and had few resources but we won! "In our hands is place a power…" is from an song called Solidarity Forever. Because of the All Phone campaign many of us see the power that we have talked about and were willing to take it in our hands. If you get something from this article I hope it is that direct action works and you only need to take it into your hands to find out.

Julia Wallace



Progressive Alliance is now organizing with the workers of Glatt Market who have just lost their livelihood when the store burned down. We are demanding back wages for the hours they worked but were paid less than minimum wage, replacement jobs, and back pay for the overtime they never received.



Report this post as:

Bunnie Sucks

by Michael George Saturday, Jan. 15, 2005 at 8:57 PM

But I wonder, when will the progressive Alliance target Arab peoples who preech hatred against Jews? When did being progressive begin to mean that all Jewish organizations should be targeted? When did this organization, who claims to stand for Latino rights as well, ever consider that the Latino community could be racist to some degree as well. I have experienced anti African American racism by Latinos. Anti white and Jewish as well. Does it make Bunnie right? No way, she should burn in hell for calling herself a Jew. But any organization which targets a Jewish racist moreso than an Arab or White racist is by it's own nature and calling a racist organizations.

All animals are created equal, but for these "progressives" only Pigs are more equal than others.

Someone needs to read Animal Farm before they forget what socialism does to people.

Report this post as:

Nothing changed.

by Bunnie rocks Saturday, Jan. 15, 2005 at 10:13 PM

Doesn't change the fact that Palestinians are murderous pigs though, now does it?

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Are you kidding me Michael?

by Julia Wallace Saturday, Jan. 15, 2005 at 10:25 PM
love_supreme@excite.com



Michael if you are interested or you know of any other racist stores whcih are or aren't Jewish and you are willing to donate your time and energy then we would be happy to take them on. I am sorry you dont like the fact that this racist happens to be Jewish. Maybe you should talk to her about it.
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George Orwell

by X Sunday, Jan. 16, 2005 at 4:30 AM

"Someone needs to read Animal Farm before they forget what socialism does to people."

Oh sure........ Socialism makes people unaware of all the ways in which racism is used to devide and conquer, not Capitalism........

Animal Farm was George Orwell's critique of Stalinism not Socialism or even Communism........ Obviously someone needs to re-read Animal Farm form a more conscious understanding of political economy.

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X-tremely the Stupid

by brigg Sunday, Jan. 16, 2005 at 4:43 AM

>Animal Farm was George Orwell's critique of Stalinism not Socialism or even Communism........ Obviously someone needs to re-read Animal Farm form a more conscious understanding of political economy.

Socialism and Communism always become Stalins version given enough time. Yes, I said "always". Get that through your fucking head before some left-wing Stalinist you thought was your comrade in the struggle thanks you for your assistance and then finally explains to you that you will either bow down to the wishes of the party or you can go hang out in Siberia. Decide.

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oh really

by Sheepdog Sunday, Jan. 16, 2005 at 6:36 AM

but brigg, you love socialism in its current model. It serves the wealthy quite well. But you're right about a top driven command structure. Under any system.

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Now sheepdog declares himself an anarchist.

by Jack Mehoffer Sunday, Jan. 16, 2005 at 7:51 PM

Well look at that, won't ya. Sheepdog says systems are bad. Evidently we need a systemless system. To bad that's sci-fi channel fiction. We'll have that right after we have oxygenless oxygen to breath and waterless water to drink.

Under capitalism wealth is so much easier to make, and oh so much easier to enjoy.

Report this post as:

anarchist?

by Sheepdog Monday, Jan. 17, 2005 at 2:16 AM

Sure I could handle it but poor little minds like yours need your police, military and tanks. I'll settle for seeing criminals taken out of power.

Report this post as:

fresca

by hmmm... Monday, Jan. 17, 2005 at 4:25 AM

What about your heroes the muslims? Think they can handle it?

Report this post as:

don't talk to me...

by Sheepdog Monday, Jan. 17, 2005 at 6:12 AM

fresca

go slink back to Jack. We're through.

Report this post as:

Answer the question, sheepdog.

by Jack Mehoffer Sunday, Jan. 16, 2005 at 10:42 AM

You want our criminals taken out of power, but what about theirs? I know, I know... no comment right?

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Jack, Jack...

by Sheepdog Sunday, Jan. 16, 2005 at 11:48 AM

Sorry I wasn't paying attention.

Here in S. Cal. the weather is great and I was riding my Triumph 500

around. Are you still asking why you are so stupid? I told you I don't know. And I'm sorry ( not sorry ) that I don't care about you.

Get over it.

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America! America!

by Jack Mehoffer Sunday, Jan. 16, 2005 at 2:26 PM

Riding his bike in the lovely SoCal weather... not wrapped up in internet blather, telling us all about how we'll all be hunted down for our wicked ways....

Well, sheepdog, I care about you. I'm glad you're able to ride your bike past those amber waves of grain. It really is a lovely country that God has shed his grace upon. And the people are what make it. They're a determined crop of outcasts from every corner of the globe, many of whom have seen what true desparation is like.

So ride that bike under those beautiful for spacious skies. But don't forget to crown thy good with brotherhood, sheepdog.

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my bike....

by Sheepdog Monday, Jan. 17, 2005 at 4:23 AM

since this thread has gone the way any anti zionist threads go, I'll just use it to rap about old English motorcycles.

Those simple old bikes with their kick starts ( if you have an electric starter, you have a women's bike) low center of gravity and high low end torque are superb for putting. No need to use high RPM and feed the clutch to get going, just drop the hammer and use the throttle.

Side-winds? ha. That thing rides through side gusts that blow cars around like it was on an iron rail, as it leans into the wind due to it's heavy, low center of gravity. If you can get an old BSA, Triumph, Royal Enfield or Norton, do so. These new light, over powered bikes that sound like tortured squirrels just to keep from stalling from off a stop, suck.

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Capitalists do make the best motorcycles.

by Jack Mehoffer Monday, Jan. 17, 2005 at 5:04 AM

Yet another of the glories of capitalism. For once sheepdog is right on. Harlyey Davidson's bar and shield, like old glory herself, is known and recognized around the world. Hell, I've even chatted about them with sub-Saharan Africans. I'd take exception with the electric starter comment though. I bet my girlie-bike would blow the paint off that antiquated piece of tin. But why quibble over such things when we're brothers of the slab? Keep the rubber side down, sheep.

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Harlyey Davidson?

by Sheepdog Monday, Jan. 17, 2005 at 5:22 AM

Is that ANOTHER Chinese knock off from our favorite communist trading partner?

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Often imitated. Never duplicated.

by Jack Mehoffer Monday, Jan. 17, 2005 at 5:31 AM

Pardon the extra "y". Fat fingers and fast synapses make me prone to type-o's. But you do bring up a good point. Communism and socialism stifle human creativity, leading to desperate economies and regularizing imitation of success. These lead to stagnation and ultimately to collapse. So sheepdog again puts another finger on why communism and socialism are undesirable..........

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spastic fingers and a fat head.

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 7:45 PM

'Y' is no where near 'l', 'r or 'e'' or at least on my key board.

I told you ( or your clone, brigg ) that you individuals just LOVE corporate socialism or national socialism just like the nazis did. No surprise.

Report this post as:

"key board" is one word.

by Jack Mehoffer Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 8:00 PM

For that matter, so is "no where". And "nazis" should be capitalized.

I just figured since you've reduced this to pointing out spelling imperfections, may as well rub your nose in it, lil doggie.

Interesting how you take a concept, a beautiful lexicalized concept such as "capitalism", and lay it to waste by metaphorically attaching such negative connotations to it.

May as well call the heavens "that morbid pit above our heads" and the setting sun "that torrid cancer causing inferno".

So gloomy, doggy.

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Obfuscating leftist collaborators

by brigg Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 8:33 PM

Leftists just love calling capitalism "national socialism" and corporate socialism, even though they're very different things. National Socialism is a leftist dogma; everyone knows that. Don't believe me, just ask Sheepdog.

Well, Sheepdog? What about it? Can you name any real Nazi corporations?

No. Of course he can't. Nazi Germany was run by socialists, not by corporations.

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socialistic corporations

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 9:15 PM

Like General Dynamics who collect every cent they make from the social warfare/welfare state and who's CEO keeps giving himself multi million bonuses without even asking and that's on top of their cost plus defense contracts. Blow it out yer ass. And the nazis called it national socialism. You call it good business.

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What?

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 9:22 PM

'Nazi Germany was run by socialists, not by corporations.'

What an ignorant boy.

What do think fascism is? The term fasci means the bundling together of sticks and in this case it was the convergence of corporate and state interests. Just like our now Corporate run government.

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General Dynamics was not a Nazi Corportion

by brigg Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 9:28 PM

GD is wholly an American corporation and always has been. It's forerunner parent company was Electric Boat, founded in 1899 by Isaac Rice in Groton, CT. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_Boat_Corporation

So blow it out YOUR ass. National Socialism is not capitalism. It is exactly what it SAYS it is: SOCIALISM.

biatch.

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"Fascism = National Socialism"

by brigg Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 9:34 PM

Wrong again, sheepdookie. It looks like you just group anything you don't like into one fat category and call it whatever whim strikes your fancy at the time. But that STILL doesn't make it reality.

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how am I wrong by stating facts?

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 9:47 PM

And you want the IG Farben and Tyson Steel corporations who the Bush crime family financed along with the Rockefellers to promote the German industrial armorments rebuild and fund the nazis ( I don't capitalize shit like nazis, zionists or republican/democrates) ? Come on. You can read history also, I would believe...

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screw you

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 10:03 PM

brigg, I've got better things to do today. I'll dissect your babble later.

Report this post as:

"facts" spoken: conspiratorial hogwash

by brigg Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 10:03 PM

"IG Farben and Tyson Steel corporations who the Bush crime family financed"

Bullshit. Prove your allegations. Saying "the Bush family financed the Nazis" is like saying "the Bush family is responsible for smog" or "the Bush family killed the Kennedys". What a bunch of conspiratorial hogwash. Prove your allegations.

And if you're going to tell a story, don't just tell the half that suits you. Tell the whole fucking deal. Those in IG Farben who conspired with the Nazis were tried and sentenced to stiff imprisonment by the U.S. Military. That's right. The U. fucking S. military, sheepdung. Uncle Sam did that. There's a conspiracy for ya. The Russians didn't do it.

Report this post as:

Hey brigg

by Jack Mehoffer Tuesday, Jan. 18, 2005 at 10:16 PM

How come sheepdog ignores me and chats with you? You being my clone and all..........

Report this post as:

sheesh

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 2:42 AM

Bush family & IG Farben & third riech

http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve3/1033bush.html

'Well, Sheepdog? What about it? Can you name any real Nazi corporations?'

Since General Dynamics isn't good enough ( he wants real German nazis, not run of the mill, socialistic U.S. fascists ) I bring out some real German fascists.

'"IG Farben and Tyson Steel corporations who the Bush crime family financed"

-Bullshit. Prove your allegations.-

Bush's "Reich" family values

-Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich were funded in part by the American right

wing. Prominent among those who funded the German Nazi Party in the 1930s

and beyond were the great-grandfather, George Herbert Walker, and the

grandfather, Prescott Bush, of White House Resident George W Bush.-

well, what ELSE do you want now?

Leave a list and I'll get around to it.

:>)

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alotta speculation

by Don Key Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 3:16 AM

and untied ends in that article.

The very last line might be a good giveaway tho;--The U.S. Communist Party--,heehee,

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yeah, The Guardian

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 4:07 AM

And those nasty commies who could Never be as truthfull as our gallery of trained seals we lovingly call corporate American media.

Ha ha ha ha. I needed a chuckle, thanks.

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Is that the best you've got?

by Jack Mehoffer Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 1:19 PM

An article written obviously unobjectively by a communist? That is pure unadulterated and unsubstantiated conjecture and third party hearsay? Are these the sorts of "facts" that you use as the azimuth for you twisted world view?

There's an awefully yawning gap between:

"The Bush crime family financed financed the Nazis."

and

"Third Reich were funded in part by the American right

wing."

And the gap could be easily widened. I bet you a thousand bucks I could Google up some website that claimed the Nazis were funded by the liberals. Wanna take me up on that? FDR was a liberal and I hear he knew Pearl Harbor was coming. I bet I could even find a site that says the Jews "partially" financed the Nazis.

Sheepdog, your worldview has lost all objectivity. You're so far out, lost in all that hate, that there's no gravitational force strong enough to pull you back in. You're destined to die an angry, angry, lonely person.

We all have choices to make. I'm sorry you despise the American way of life so much that you're ready to buy into any lie that suits you. It's sad.

Report this post as:

"Bush family & IG Farben & third riech "

by Jack Mehoffer Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 1:42 PM

It took me about three minutes to find the rebuttal to sheepdogs accusations that the Bush family has Nazi ties:



In another era such rumors and conspiracy theories raised against a sitting president would have been ignored as the raving of cranks (Sheepdog). But the Internet has leveled the playing field between editors of reputable media and lone quacks (Sheepdog), allowing political hucksters (Sheepdog) to flood the information market with factoids and distortions that have injected new harshness and cynicism into the presidential re-election campaign. Obsessive liar. Wartime chicken. Heir to a Nazi fortune. Tool of the Jews.

Thanks to Internet technology, the domestic political campaign being led against Bush by the Democratic extremists (Sheepdog) has gone global, fueling anti-U.S. groups abroad with a steady, high-carb diet of misinformation and willful disinformation, turbocharging a global electronic echo chamber that analysts say is encouraging hatred of the nation and diminishing U.S. leadership in the war effort by casting doubts on the most innocuous of administration statements and policies.

The main accusations range across the spectrum of the bizarre:

President Bush owes his family inheritance to Adolf Hitler, and his grandfather, Prescott Bush, helped finance the Nazi rise to power in Germany.

These stories had circulated for years but resurfaced on May 13, 2003, in the Cuban Communist Party newspaper Granma, headlined, "Bush Family Funded Adolf Hitler." As the Associated Press reports, Prescott had been on the board of Union Banking Corp., whose majority owner, the Thyssen family of Germany, indeed had funded the Nazis against a feared communist takeover of Germany in the 1920s and 1930s. Family leader Fritz Thyssen broke with Hitler over the 1938 Kristallnacht pogrom against the Jews, was stripped of his citizenship and fortune, and was in a Nazi prison at the time the elder Bush sat on that board. There is no evidence that Prescott Bush, who owned just one share of Union Banking, had anything to do with the Thyssen political work in Germany.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/07/19/Politics/Dispelling.Myths.About.George.Bush-607399.shtml



There you have the truth. Not Sheepdog's "truth" for certain. Not even my version of the truth. But the truth, plain and simple. THE. truth.

Now. What were you saying, sheepdog?

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socialism and stalinism

by more rational Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 1:50 PM

Socialism doesn't always become Stalinism. Stalinism seems to arise when nationalism is necessary to effect the revolution and control the population. Anyway, Finland is an example of socialism that is just socialism, disproving your point.

Socialism also doesn't preclude the existence of capitalism within the state.

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And what gets me even more about these leftists...

by Jack Mehoffer Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 1:52 PM

Is how, in one breath they call us "Nazis" and in the next accuse us of propping up Israel. I would think the two would be mutually exclusive. But in some twisted indymedia minds, they're one and the same. Somehow, I can be a Nazi and a Jew lover at the same time. It's bizarre, really.

Here's a news flash for you Sheepdogs out there in la-la-land:

Nazis killed Jews. By the MILLIONS.

Americans give Jews MILLIONS. That's the difference.

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stifling creativity?

by more rational Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 1:56 PM

You obviously haven't tried to be very creative in this industrial capitalist economy.

Certain kinds of creativity pay off, and others do not.

This is no different than in other forms of society. Certain kinds pay off, and others do not.

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national socialism is a right ideology

by more rational Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 2:03 PM

National Socialism is a right ideology. Just read anything about it, and that's how it identifies itself. In the 1930s, "Socialism" was just the fad du-jour, because all the poverty that capitalism was creating demanded some response. The state, which had been allied strongly with business, switched to supporting the workers.

National Socialism privileged some capitalists who were aligned with the state. It's basically a capitalist ideology.

There is nothing left or Marxist about it. This is evidenced by the fact that fascists have ALWAYS gone to war against Communists. They have always been in opposition. Even today, the remnants of fascism and Communists fight it out.

Every right winger who claims that National Socialism, or fascism, is a left ideology is simply in deep denial. It's this denial which masks the fact that the right, in America, is creeping towards fascism.

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Finland is a post-socialist country.

by Jack Mehoffer Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 2:04 PM

Actually, it's a Republic that, like every other place on the globe (other than Cuba and North Korea) is transitioning to a capitalist society.

Ain't gloabalism grand!

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Stalinism is a leftist ideology.

by Jack Mehoffer Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 2:09 PM

Any leftist that denies Stalinism is the essence of socialism is simply in denial.

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the nazis did have american support

by more rational Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 2:14 PM

There were elements within America who did support the Nazis and the Fascists. There were supporters among German Americans and Italian Americans. The ethnic press regularly touted their leaders as helping their countries recover economically. (Ironically, the support for Imperial Japan among the Japanese Americans was low in comparison. Just look at the papers -- they were under a lot of scrutiny, and tried to avoid allying with Japan. Of course, they got sent to concentration camps.)

The Klan, for example, supported fascism. They were fascists, and fairly popular ones at that.

Fascism continues to be a problem today. If it rises again, it'll be co-opted to become, once again, the thuggish vanguard of the corporate conservatives. They will go around and beat up leftists, unionists, and probably gays too.

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insight mag is a right-wing rag

by more rational Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 2:18 PM

Insight is a right wing rag funded by the Moonies. It's part of a media agglomerate of the Washington Times, Insightmag, and UPI. These are owned as organs for the right wing, and funded (originally) by Rev. Moon, who was a GOP fundraiser and cult leader of the Unification Church, back in the 80s.

I know most of this crap because I read a lot of it during the 80s, growing up.

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Don't forget Jews.

by Jack Mehoffer Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 2:21 PM

They liked to beat up them Jews. Its just a matter of time before America becomes a jack-booted gay-bashing Jew killer state, just like Nazi Germany. Then we can all move to that paradise, the Peoples Republic of Finland, where socialism is king!

What a joke. I also like how these leftists blend "National Socialism" with "Fascism", even though these ideologies were characterized by completely different ideals. So, in the indymedia leftists world, this is how it works:

National Socialism = Fascism = Capitalism

America = Nazi Germany

Stalinism does not equal socialism.

Pretty simple way of looking at things, eh?

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Attack the source, not the substance.

by Jack Mehoffer Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2005 at 2:25 PM

Typical leftists attack the source, and not the substance. Discount any source that doesn't support their thesis. Everyone knows the guardian is a left wing rag, so that went without saying.

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i'm not attacking the source. i'm attacking you.

by more rational Thursday, Jan. 20, 2005 at 4:10 AM

Also, I never actually said Bush's grandpa funded the Nazis. He was only involved in a company that invested in some German companies that were basically Nazi. The connection is there, but, does it really amount to anything?

GW has strong ties to the Bin Ladin family. So what? That's not why we have failed to capture him. They have strong ties to the Saudi royal family. That's not why we fail to point the finger at them when they support Al Quaeda. These things are tenuous accusations at best.

These creepy relationships are just business. They're not that conspiratorial, inasmuch as the relationship really determines what happens politically. These rich folks with big businesses are forced to do business with each other, to maximize profitability for their shareholders and owners.

For example, when Bush cut taxes on the richest 1% of people in America, it was to help everyone, not just the people who are his peers and friends.

(Holy shit. After typing all this, I started to think that the Bush's really are evil people who do business with evil people. I'm just doing a little too much "connect the dots" here.)

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I may not agree with you on everything...

by Jack Mehoffer Thursday, Jan. 20, 2005 at 9:40 PM

but you do make rational points. That is a plus when compared to some of these loony leftists around here.

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OneEyedMan

by KPC Friday, Jan. 21, 2005 at 1:46 AM

...the grudging respect of an idiot...

...gee, whatta coup...

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Isn't that neat.

by Jack Mehoffer Friday, Jan. 21, 2005 at 2:01 AM

Say "loony leftist" and ... POOF!

KPC shows up.

Just like Dr. Bombay on 'Bewitched'!

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if you like rational

by more rational Sunday, Jan. 23, 2005 at 10:34 AM

Check out Rational Revolution. It's not my site or anything. The name is just a coincidence.

You might wake up yet.

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"Any leftist that denies Stalinism is the essence of socialism is simply in denial.&q

by more rational Sunday, Jan. 23, 2005 at 11:19 AM

Look up "socialism" on Wikipedia. It's not Stalinism.

Socialism is broad. Communism is a subset of socialism. Stalinism is a subset of communism.

Socialism predated them all.

Thus, Stalinism is not the "essence" of socialism. Socialism is the essence of Stalinism.

However, socialism is also the essence of people forming a club to feed the indigent or to deal with unemployment. Socialism is a broad word.

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Oh I'm wide awake...

by Jack Mehoffer Sunday, Jan. 23, 2005 at 8:12 PM

Just like Neo, Sheepdog, and the rest, it doesn't do me much good...

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That doesn't mean squat.

by Jack Mehoffer Sunday, Jan. 23, 2005 at 8:56 PM

Look up capitalism, conservativism, national socialism, and fascism on wikopedia. They're all different. That doesn't stop you leftists from lumping them all together in one big group. You're just in denial. You great example of a successful socialist government is Finland! But Finland is a member of the EU and is becoming more of a capitalist country every day.

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