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Video of Tanks at anti-war protest in LA

by . Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004 at 10:27 PM

Tanks on the streets of LA

QuickTime movie at

LOS ANGELES, November 9, 2004 - At 7:50 PM two armored tanks showed up at an anti-war protest in front of the federal building in Westwood. The tanks circled the block twice, the second time parking themselves in the street and directly in front of the area where most of the protesters were gathered. Enraged, some of the people attempted to block the tanks, but police quickly cleared the street. The people continued to protest the presence of the tanks, but about ten minutes the tanks drove off. It is unclear as to why the tanks were deployed to this location. Uploaded here is video from the event.
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still image from video

by . Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004 at 11:31 PM

still image from vid...
tank.jpeg, image/jpeg, 288x216

.
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Disturbing

by T Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 4:33 AM

This is truly the most disturbing thing i've seen in.... Well, 8 days.

Any secondary source on this at all? Even a blog would be good.

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bah

by Jeremy Savage Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 6:40 AM

Just watched the video. Damn I hate ANSWER rallies
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Welcome to the police state.

by Baton guy Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 7:51 AM

while the rest of the sheep remained safely on the sidewalk a few of us brave souls were willing to put our lives on the line to protect our right to desent. what will do you when the time comes?
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 9:43 AM

....yes, what a cost-effective way of dealing with a non-existant threat....

....well, there is a housefly in my kitchen, can I get some republican idiot to send an Apache helicopter to dispatch it?

....just send the bill to the taxpayer.....

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not so fast

by getreal Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004 at 3:46 AM

cmon people... there was a hostage incident at the mexican consulate earlier that SAME day.

they are both federal buildings! THINK

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-hostage10nov10,0,4899107.story?coll=la-home-headlines
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tanks but no tanks

by cathytrione Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004 at 3:49 AM
cathytrione@yahoo.com

Im sure the tanks were very successful against the "rebels" who probably were long gone--typical guerrilla manoeuver: retreat and wait...the "coalition" will find that the enemy they defeated will make peculiar reappearances...
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Where's the video

by Just Insanity Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004 at 3:51 AM

The video link doesn't work. Is this just crap or is it for real?
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WHY IS THE MOVIE GONE?

by tamara Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004 at 3:55 AM

WHY iS THE TANK MOVIE GONE?

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Citizen

by Steve Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004 at 4:00 AM

I wasn't there at the Tuesday night demonstration in Westwood, but I did do some follow-up investigation this morning about the two armored vehicles.

Turns out the West Los Angeles Veterans Administration was having a Veterans Day parade and celebration this morning (Wednesday). I drove over and walked in to the WLA VA to look around at 10:50am.

Lots of marching middle school ROTC "cadets" (including 11-to-14-year-old boys and girls from Mt. Vernon Middle School all in US Army uniform, some shouldering parade "rifles") and a high school band and antique cars filled with VAFW members. And two USMC Striker armored vehicles complete with 6 or 7 Marines in fatigues and body armor giving junior high ROTC kids and adults tours of the vehicles.

I talked to one Marine with one of the "Striker" vehicles. He told me they had driven the vehicles up from Camp Pendleton the night before (Tuesday) on the freeway. Getting off the 405 Freeway North taking the Wilshire East (instead of WEST to the VA) offramp, they would have passed Wilshire and Veteran where the anti-war rally was underway protesting the attack on Fallujah in Iraq.

I asked him if he was "rolling around Westwood" Tuesday night. He said, "Yeah, and we drove past that anti-war demonstration. We was lost. We're not from L.A. We didn't know where this place (WLA VA) was. We were trying to find it."

"Did you drive around the block twice?" I asked.

"Yeah, we did. We stopped to ask them (the protestors) directions, but they weren't very nice."

There was more conversation, but that was the gist of it from the Marine side concerning the armored vehicles. For what it's worth.

I've also been receiving emails from friends who were at the rally who tell me the LAPD officers said they had no idea why the Striker armored vehicles had shown up.
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OH Marine Strykers

by David Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004 at 4:04 AM

Heh I was thinking Army Strykers. The Marines use a completly different set of Strykers.
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N o Way Jose

by bananaman Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004 at 4:04 AM
bananaman@spammail.com

Don't the Police ususally deal with those sot of incidents? John Mc Clean on holiday I take it. DUH
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Follow up on 2 USMC Striker armored vehicles at Westwood Federal Building

by Steve Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004 at 4:09 AM

I wasn't there at the Tuesday night demonstration in Westwood, but I did do some follow-up investigation this morning about the two armored vehicles.

Turns out the West Los Angeles Veterans Administration was having a Veterans Day parade and celebration this morning (Wednesday). I drove over and walked in to the WLA VA to look around at 10:50am.

Lots of marching middle school ROTC "cadets" (including 11-to-14-year-old boys and girls from Mt. Vernon Middle School all in US Army uniform, some shouldering parade "rifles") and a high school band and antique cars filled with VAFW members. And two USMC Striker armored vehicles complete with 6 or 7 Marines in fatigues and body armor giving junior high ROTC kids and adults tours of the vehicles.

I talked to one Marine with one of the "Striker" vehicles. He told me they had driven the vehicles up from Camp Pendleton the night before (Tuesday) on the freeway. Getting off the 405 Freeway going north, they would have passed Wilshire and Veteran where ANSWER had called a rally to protest the attack on Fallujah in Iraq.

I asked him if he was "rolling around Westwood" Tuesday night. He said, "Yeah, and we drove past that anti-war demonstration. We was lost. We're not from L.A. We didn't know where this place (WLA VA) was. We were trying to find it."

"Did you drive around the block twice?" I asked.

"Yeah, we did. We stopped to ask them (the protestors) directions, but they weren't very nice."

There was more conversation, but that was the gist of it from the Marine side concerning the armored vehicles. For what it's worth.

I've also been receiving emails from friends who were at Tuesday evening's Westwood demostration. They report that the LAPD officers said they had no idea why the two armored vehicles had appeared and then disappeared.
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Who's Got the Video?

by Eggie Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 4:22 PM

Anyone seen another source?
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Anyone ever heard of the Posse Comitatus Act?

by Michael Boldin Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 4:23 PM
mboldin@populistamerica.com

One of the first principles of freedom is that the military and the police are separate.  Police are civilians, and their job is to police civilians.  The military is for the protection of our borders.  I'm not sure if these alleged tanks were used to police the event, but the story gives this impression.  It's recommended that all Americans read the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 as we are seeing an exploding police state nationwide - the military is training and working with civilian police on too many occasions.

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Lost Armoured Vehicles

by Brendon Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 4:25 PM

Lost eh? Hey about that! And right where a protest was happening!

HOW CONVIENENT!

It's called a psy op. Test the waters. See the public and media response to tanks on the street...before you know it whole battalions of the things will be getting lost as the natives grow more restless.

Lost? Give me a break.
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Did the two tanks look like this one?

by Steve Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 4:29 PM

Did the two tanks look like http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/lookup/2004927155839?opendocument">this one?

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/lookup/2004927155839?opendocument">http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/lookup/2004927155839?opendocument
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Wow...

by Andrew Murphy Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 4:33 PM
imandrewmurphy@yahoo.com

This is totally amazing. You know, they had a lot of reporting on the protest on tv early in the evening, but there was no late coverage and certainly no mention of tanks.
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Uh ril Uhmerican

by Let's kill dumb people Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 4:35 PM

Baa-Baa-Demlib Sheep must be from the South. And proud of it, too, I bet. A perfect example of the phrase, "Ignorance is Bliss."
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Police State? "No Tanks!"

by Patriot Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 4:42 PM

I believe that this is the FIRST time tanks have been deployed against peaceful demonstrators in Los Angeles... this sharp escalation, so obviously meant to suppress free speech, may also be a precedent for the entire country. There was absolutely no reason or excuse to deploy tanks against a law abiding crowd... except to INTIMIDATE the populace.

Someone posting as 'Steve' dismissed the incident, saying it was part of a "West Los Angeles Veterans Administration Veterans Day Parade". Excuse me but... the demonstration was held on Nov. 9th, Veterans Day is Nov. 11th. 'Steve' also noted that "LAPD officers said they had no idea why the two armored vehicles had appeared and then disappeared." Do you really think the LAPD would be clueless about TANKS rolling down Westwood Blvd.? Someone else posted that there was a "hostage incident at the Mexican consulate earlier that SAME day"... well then, why not post tanks in front of EVERY government building or foreign consulate in LA?, come on... TANKS were deployed in front of an antiwar demonstration and you dummies are making up excuses!

Those tanks were parked there for one reason only... to show you whose 'boss' and what's in store for you if you step out of line.

Yes, you live in a 'free' country where you may exercise your 'rights' to freedom of assembly and freedom of speech... but you must first face tanks to do so! How many American citizens will be brave enough to claim their rights in the face of such force?
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OFF! OFF! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!

by Jesuit Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 4:48 PM

Nonsense replied Alice.

Look, let's put the Fascist Republicans on one side and the Communist Democrats on the other, let them go at it, and hope there are no survivors.

The World would done a favor.


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Ohio State

by steve Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 4:51 PM

Anybody that thinks this is no big deal must not remember Ohio. The problem is that the same morons that support bu$h believe nothing bad happened at Ohio State either.
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They were 'lost'? With GPS?

by Mairead Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:03 PM

The 'lost' explanation sounded plausible...til I thought of GPS positioning and route-finding. Why wouldn't such vehicles have that when it's already an option in many common-or-garden-variety cars? (I'm not trying to impeach the author who offered the explanation; it might be the correct one, in which case other questions arise)
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STATEMENT FROM PROTEST ORGANIZERS

by ANSWER Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:05 PM

STATEMENT FROM PROTEST ORGANIZERS

Hundreds Protest Attack on Fallujah and U.S. Militarism.
A.N.S.W.E.R. Demo Draws Activists and Military Tanks

Hundreds of protestors converged on the Federal building in Westwood last night to demonstrate against the U.S. attack on Fallujah. Colorful signs, banners and placards lined the busy streets while the crowd militantly chanted "George Bush, we say no - the occupation has got to go!" and "The people of Fallujah are under attack. What do we do? Stand up, fight back!"

The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition initiated last night's emergency demonstration. It was one of many coordinated actions that took place in cities across the nation protesting the new U.S. invasion of Fallujah. Activists and leaders from various progressive organizations attended, including members of Free Palestine Alliance, CAIR, Coalition for World Peace, Women in Black, U.S. Labor Against War, NION, ADC-LA/OC and more.

As the demonstration was winding up, two large U.S. military tanks drove past the protestors on Wilshire Boulevard two times. The second time, the tanks stopped directly in front of a group of about 50 protestors for nearly five minutes. Police attempted to provoke a confrontation with the crowd,
but the people resisted. Instead, they chanted "Bring the Troops Home Now!"

We do not know where the tanks came from, where they were going or why they drove past the demonstration. It is an outrage to see military tanks rolling through the streets of Los Angeles.

If the tanks were meant to intimidate us, they failed. The resolve of the protestors to fight against the occupation was strengthened by their presence. The protestors stuck together and chanted loudly until the tanks sped away and the police dispersed.

The presence of military tanks on Wilshire highlights the need to step up the fight against U.S. militarism. The U.S. is the most highly militarized nation on the planet with a defense budget of over $700 billion. We must increase the struggle against war, occupation, racism and all forms of bigotry in the U.S and abroad.

The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition has unveiled an action plan to deepen the struggle and further unite the antiwar movement so that it grows even stronger in the months to come. Please join us in building these exciting upcoming events in Los Angeles:

PROTEST VIGIL TO BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!
Sat, Dec 18, 7 pm
Hollywood & Highland (NW corner)

COUNTER-INAUGURAL DEMONSTRATION
Thurs, Jan 20, 2005, 6 pm
Westwood Federal Building (Wilshire & Veteran)

MASS MARCH AND RALLY - GLOBAL DAY OF ACTION
Sat, March 19, 2005, 12 noon
Location TBA
Los Angeles

For more info or to volunteer call 323-464-1636
http:http://www.answerla.org
answerla@answerla.org
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ms

by Ruth Slater Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:07 PM
terrianda@msn.com

God bless those protestors , america is behind you. Arizona is behind you , we are fighting our own war with the illegal invassion. Bush is a madman , and he is destroying this country. I am a Republican and a conservative and I never voted for the dictator , don't blame us , we have no idea who voted for him , well ,yes we do , the election was a fraud and the final part of the cuop has taken place. Stay in there if they want a battle let it begin here. We have the right to protest and protest we will.
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fresca

by fine with me Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:09 PM

"Look, let's put the Fascist Republicans on one side and the Communist Democrats on the other, let them go at it, and hope there are no survivors. "

Fine by me.
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Rev.

by Daniels Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:09 PM

Was @ Fed. bldg. on eve of 9th...
Calling out words of war protest, several of the soldiers gave us the thumbs up. One person gave them literature on finding help to get out as they seemed to have an empathy for the cries of the crowd.
BUT THEN an utterly moronic woman started screaming at them that they were murderers and baby killers and other foul verbal attacks. I gently shared with her the fact that the three men in the tank in front of us appeared supportive, then she screamed at me even more hateful sentiments...
So, like, didn't we learn anything from Viet Nam, mostly in regard to the importance of the human beings that are soldiers who have become caught in the middle of the nightmare? So many of the kids in the military today come from financial disadvantage and this was a way to be able to afford an education.
TRUST ME, those KIDS IN THE TANKS are most likely scared to hell about what they are about to face.
People irrationally screaming hideous accusations at soldiers are not helping, but are rather hurting the "cause". It isn't the soldiers that should be hated, go after our leadership with your words of anger, go after those who compel little boys to be forced into acts of war. ...Too bad someone doesn't ship Bush's daughters off to the front lines, wouldn't that make us all much more trusting of the President's resolve in sending other people's children to be killed?!
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President

by American Rationalist Party Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:12 PM

Oh my god, that is the fakest tank I've ever seen. What you have their is a mocked up tank made by protestors, and then someone shot an extremely closed in shot with a camera. What is there, 3 people in the photo? That is a fake photo folks.

The same tactic was used during protests against the Vietnam war. Protestors would get 10 or 15 people to scream loudly and pack tightly as if they had no room, and then they would only take film from close in, and then claim there were hundreds of protestors that showed up when there were not.

That is a shameful piece of BS. No offense to any of you, it probably would fool most people. But I BUILD tanks, including Strykers and APVs and other vehicles for the US military, that is a fake POS folks, somebody should be ashamed of this ruse.
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Patriot & other steve: just telling you what I did, saw, asked, and heard

by Steve1 Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:16 PM

Hi.

I'm not "dismissing" anything. I'm just telling you what I did, saw, asked, and heard this morning in West Los Angeles.

Want to verify if there was a large Veterans Day parade and celebration at the WLA VA this Wednesday morning on 11/10/2004? There are ways to do that. For example....

http://www.gla.med.va.gov/GLAcalendar/calendarcode.cfm

Do I think the US Marine Corps should be driving Light Armored Vehicles on the 405 Freeway or Wilshire Blvd.? NO. Very bad idea to begin with.

Do I think their appearance at an anti-war rally whatever the reason is intimidating, worrisome, and not to be accepted? YES.

Do I think the present US administration represents a clear and continuing danger to peace and democracy at home and abroad? YES.

Do I think we need all the accurate and verified information we can get to devise effective strategy and actions? YES.

Was locating those two armored vehicles in West Los Angeles all that difficult? No. I did after my Wednesday morning class.

Like I wrote before... take my information for what it's worth. But please don't make me into a CIA psyops expert. That's wasted energy.

Thanks.

In peace and solidarity...
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Irony lost on the plebs

by Matt Hamon Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:21 PM
matt@hopecaravan.com

The irony of coalition forces, specifically American using a Bathist army to attack Fallujah is lost on the plebs.

Why don't we just get their commander and chief to lead them, I'm sure Saddam Hussein would stop them from being an uncontrollable rabble.

We could also get Osama Bin Laden and Abu Baka Bashir to do secret missions to thwart those ungrateful Iraqis, oop! I mean insurgency.
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Halo 2

by Syphoon Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:26 PM

Does anyone else think the guy in the turret is dressed like Master Chief from Halo? Given that the tank is an obvious fake, and Halo 2 was released Nov 9, I'm laughing right now at this "story".
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Right on, "Rev" Daniels

by Steve1 Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:27 PM


Again, I wasn't there Tuesday, but if his report is accurate, then I couldn't agree more with Daniels. Really and effectively demonstrating peace takes discipline and brains and creativity and maturity and the presence and flexibility to turn opportunities to advantage, not just opposition.

We're all learning together.

>>Daniels wrote:

Calling out words of war protest, several of the soldiers gave us the thumbs up. One person gave them literature on finding help to get out as they seemed to have an empathy for the cries of the crowd.

BUT THEN an utterly moronic woman started screaming at them that they were murderers and baby killers and other foul verbal attacks. I gently shared with her the fact that the three men in the tank in front of us appeared supportive, then she screamed at me even more hateful sentiments...
So, like, didn't we learn anything from Viet Nam, mostly in regard to the importance of the human beings that are soldiers who have become caught in the middle of the nightmare? So many of the kids in the military today come from financial disadvantage and this was a way to be able to afford an education.
TRUST ME, those KIDS IN THE TANKS are most likely scared to hell about what they are about to face.
People irrationally screaming hideous accusations at soldiers are not helping, but are rather hurting the "cause". It isn't the soldiers that should be hated, go after our leadership with your words of anger, go after those who compel little boys to be forced into acts of war. .
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Posse Comitatus

by Thom Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:32 PM

The Posse Comitatus Act, mentioned by Michal Boldin above, no longer means anything. While it originally forbade the military to be involved in civilian law enforcement, Ronald Reagan ammended it for the ridiculous "war on drugs". He effectively adding three words to it:
unless ordered to.

Posse Comitatus is now nothing more than a toilet paper smoke screen - there are no protections left that I am aware of to prevent us from a full blown totalitarian police state.
Certainly not the morality of those running the show these days.
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What happened to the tank video

by RD Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:35 PM
candour@earthlink.net

Can someone direct me to where the video went to.

I can not access it from my computer.

thanks
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Lost LAVs

by slowroll Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:43 PM

Hey guys. Some people aren't going to be convinced that this was NOT an attempt to stifle expression, but this sounded fishy to me from the start.

Thursday is Veteran's Day and today is the USMCs 229th birthday.

The vehicles in question are LAV-25s, not Strykers or Coyotes. They're operated exclusively by the USMC.

Military vehicles don't have route-finding GPS like a new Lexus. Military systems are generally far, far behind civilian systems. The primary processor in the F-22, for example, is about as powerful as an old 486. It takes years to develope these vehicles and they've got to commit to an operating system pretty early and go ahead and build it. The primary issue military GPS is still the old PLGR system from the mid-90s. No Marine LAV has a system up front programmed with maps of downtown LA.

If they were going to use armored vehicles for crowd suppression, the LAPD has V-100s and there are Army National Guard units with armor closer than Camp Pendleton, the nearest Marine base.

Tempest in a teapot, fellas, it's not to-the-barricades-with-your-Molotov-cocktails-time yet. Just some lost Marines.
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LA VA Parade details

by Xmas Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 5:47 PM

Wednesday
Nov 10
10:00 a.m.-
12:00p.m.
VA Greater Los Angeles Veterans Day
Parade
VA West Los Angeles
For Info call (310) 478-
3711
VA West Los Angeles
11301 Wilshire Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA
Hospital Line
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Repost of video

by . Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 6:02 PM

QuickTime movie at

.
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some input

by Sheepdog Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 6:08 PM

A fire team can shoot out of the gun holes as this puppy does doughnuts on your new lawn.
These are wheeled (8) armor vehicles, not treaded. They are for urban and field use and they can sport a 130 mm gun. I have also seen the mock ups of Russian BMPs fitted with General Motors turrets and chain guns. I hope they solved that resonance rate of fire problem...
They should have been deployed by a carrier to destination. If they were for parade purposes. Reason being is that they are not freeway scooters and they are labor intensive service/maintenance duty wise.
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consider this

by the party we came for Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 6:16 PM

before you call someone dumb. please, make sure you spell things correctly, use words in the right places, and insert spaces.

thats all.
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reply to Rev post

by dkdale Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 6:18 PM

I agree with Daniels’ Rev post about not blaming the soldiers and learning from what was done to Vietnam vets. Soldiers don’t run the war, and the generals who do are carrying out directives from the current administration. It absolutely is important to be clear about what you are protesting and then direct it at someone who’s in a position to do something about it, or at least in a position to correctly take blame. Especially if you’re delivering your protest at shriek level, as the woman in his post was described as doing. Aiming venom at someone who isn’t in charge isn't going to change anything, and doesn’t really accomplish anything, except potentially lose people who might otherwise be on your side of the issue.
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So it begins...

by George Rosenbaum Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 6:25 PM

So it begins...
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Capt. America: Seig Heil!

by buffy Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 7:01 PM

Captain America: Seig heil, mein fuhrer! Let the killing begin!
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Screaming at soldiers and stopping tanks

by proberts Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 7:07 PM

Like a couple of people have said, screaming at soldiers does nothing except make the soldiers think we're against them. They go back and tell their friends what jerks we were, etc, etc.

BUT, to the person who criticized those who blocked the tanks' path: yes, those people risked very little in doing so, but for staying on the sidelines, congratulations on risking absolutly nothing for your beliefs (if you were even there).

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Rev.

by Daniels Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 7:14 PM

A post script:
After I tried to share with my fellow female to have compassion for the soldiers who gave us the thumbs up, and she then lit into me with her venom, a man in the crowd re-acted in suit and began screaming at the soldiers with the same hostility... then another, then another; it started a wildfire of hate amongst a portion of the crowd and caused a sadness in the eyes of the boy/soldier in the rear tank, possibly even some fear of us...
How sad.
How sad.

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Mr

by Author Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 7:30 PM

Listen ppl, I know you americans rightly don't like foreigners (even aussies like me in a country that you basically own) telling you what to think.... but.... if you can't even decide if they were real tanks in a real street posing a real threat, then i would suggest strongly that that game is already won. just roll over and play dead for the nice republican commissars now please. and try to look ugly for the FOX news coverage. thanks.

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Cali is 10 years ahead of the rest of the nation

by poor richard Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 7:37 PM

Is this what the rest of us have to look forward to? Do I smell a civil war along party lines? Such is life in the new Amerika!!!

pr
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Tank Repellent

by anarchist Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 8:07 PM

I've read that gasoline and Quaker Instant Oatmeal in a (glass) Perrier bottle is pretty good tank repellent.
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Something to prepare for...

by Eddie V. Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 8:29 PM

If the picture proves fraud it won't be too long before you see the real thing.
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please calm yo ass down

by intel Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 8:52 PM

Those were not TANKS, those where light armored vehicles LAVs or APCs (armored personel carriers) some police tactical units have one or two of these. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/lav-25.htm These were probably national guardsman out for a joyride (it's probably near a national guard armory)

you guys/gals gotta practice your armored vehicle identification flash cards
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How about Intimidation

by Jerzy Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 9:04 PM

What do police need LAVs for in this situation? Intimidation. You know what intimidation is? It is an effort to curtail freedom of speech not to mention driving a tank (or parading a military unit) into an area of protest is a violation of the right of assembly. So you can try to distract from the issue by quibbling about details all you want, the facts speak for themselves.
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thermite make good repellent

by Greasy sock Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 9:18 PM

But is not safe so do not use without proper super vision by trained and qualified individuals. Soap suds work well with wheeled vehicles as do bee bees. Armor without infantry is fool hardy.
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Canadianguy

by kobrien Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 9:56 PM

The Canadian Government has decided to annex California. We have sent 3 of our 10 armored vehicles in to enforce discipline. If there is any dissent Celine Dion will sing the theme from Titanic on all radio stations until submission is complete. Get used to poutine and back bacon people, we've had enough and we're taking over. Also, we know how to swear in french.
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OMG GOVERNMENT OMG FREEDOM

by Person Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 10:15 PM

Far to much tinfoil in this thread.
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Info on the vehicle...

by fred in phx Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 10:18 PM

The vehicle shown in this video is a General Dynamics Stryker MGS (Mobile Gun System). Read how this puppy is equiped:
"The Stryker Mobile Gun System variant consists of the basic vehicle with a General Dynamics Land Systems fully stabilized shoot-on-the-move Low Profile Turret. The turret is armed with a M68A1E4 105mm cannon with muzzle brake and an M2 0.50 calibre commander's machine gun. The Stryker Mobile Gun System can fire 18 rounds of 105mm main gun ammunition, 400 rounds of 0.50 calibre ammunition and 3,400 rounds of 7.62mm ammunition. Curtiss-Wright Corp's Vista Controls supplies the fully automated ammunition loading and replenishing system."

My only question, why in the hell would you need to deploy that much fire power to a small war protest? The answer of course is they didn't need to. Then why did they do it? Simple: Displays of overwhelming force are designed to suppress political dissent. It's been going on for hundreds of years. We just didn't think we would see this specific type of display on American soil designed to intimidate American voters. Well, I guess that's a police state for you. Get used to it, there's alot more where that came from.

My source for the Stryker information.
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infoshop discussion

by chicagoan Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 10:23 PM

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=04/11/10/0844742
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Tank Deployed to AntiWar Rally

by Debi White Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 10:27 PM
HeartSoulHumor@yahoo.com

Story is also at http://www.DemWatch.blogspot.com and http://www.MyDD.com
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none

by none Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 10:35 PM

Those weren't 'tanks' they were Marine APCs. They were obviously on their way to another location and crossed paths with the protest. Apparently a lot conspiratorial overreactors seem to think it was planned. The Marines on the other hand looked befuddled about the whole thing.
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Not a Mobile Gun System

by Allan In SF Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 10:58 PM

The vehicles at the protest weren't http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-mgs.htm">Mobile Gun Systems, so the complaint about "why so much fire power" isn't really valid. As to whether the Marines were "deployed against protesters," I wouldn't call driving past on Wilshire a "show of force."

Respectfully,

Allan in SF
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why the tanks?

by Zed Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 11:00 PM

Why the tanks? Such an over kill, all the wasted fuel to drive them there,wasted man power and time spent all for a handful of unarmed protesters, but then it isn't their money they are wasting it is ours,we pay for all their childlish reactions to popcorn fart protests like they were on the front lines in Iraq or something. This whole situation sucks big time!! Zed.
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Many of you people are idiots

by octavian Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 11:05 PM

It's funny that in the vid, the protestors are screaming "bring the troops home now". Yet those troops were right there in front of them. It's also quite funny that whenever Liberals see military men and women, they lash out against them.

Stop pretending you give a hoot about "the troops". You don't.

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fake tank

by xx Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 11:13 PM

>Oh my god, that is the fakest tank I've ever seen.

I downloaded the video and you can see two tanks. They are very real! So much for these self proclaimed experts that "know" photos have been faked. Buddy go to the top of the page and watch the video. Then tell me your "expert" opinion.

That being said, these tank do not seem to be there for the protest. If they were it was a half ass way to do it. Parking them next to police cars across the street would have been more menacing.
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Robo Cop Response

by Joe Palacios Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 11:36 PM
militaryrocks0311

I a Non Commissioned Officer that was in the so-called tanks, which to be correct they are Light Armored Vehicles, I would just like to let everyone that has read your article know, we were not sent out in response of any protest. I do believe that in this country we all have the right to gather peacefully and voice our opinions. I take great pride in that, why else would I join the very thing that ensures us of that right. I mean the US Marines who have been safe guarding this nation from all enemies that would attempt to take those very rights the group last night was exercising. I would just like to add that there is nothing wrong with protesting a war you feel is wrong, but there is something very wrong, when during your protest of that war to wish harm on those young men and women who have sworn an oath to protect you and to make it so you can go out a voice your opinion. I think it is amazing how so many people protest us for doing our jobs. Did any of you know that in Iraq before we were there they would not gather to voice their dislike of Saddam policies do you think it because they like the policies... or maybe because they knew that if they did protest him tanks would show up and it wouldn’t be because they took the wrong turn off the highway and need to find there way to a celebration of freedom, and to honor those men and women who serve the very people who protest them. They would be there to, an I am sorry to say, kill them. Well not in this country, not on my watch. So, please voice your opinions yell them out, but in the future don’t jump to conclusions, and please for safety reasons don’t jump in front a tank, or any type of armored vehicle it just not safe or very smart. I also hope that you would support your troops we would prefer to be home, but we don’t leave until our job is done and done right because then the deaths suffered on both side are for nothing. I really hope that every who reads this will take the true meaning of my response. Which is I love this country, I love the people of this great place, I love the liberties we have, and I would fight against all who tried to take those liberties from us whether it be some rouge nation or if it where right here. We are not your enemy we are your shield we lay our lives down so you may be free. Thank You
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Mr.

by David Jordan Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 11:36 PM

Wait, a second. wasn't this the same day as that Mexican standoff at the Mexican consulate? That is on Wilshire and MacArthur park, maybe the APCs were on their way back from that situation. I heard on NPR that they had armored vehicles at that incident.
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more about the Tanks

by LAV Marine Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 11:48 PM

These do not have shooting ports, none of them have 130mm that is bigger than what is on a Abarams Tank.
there are other variants
a Anti-Tank with Tows
a Mortor with 81 mm
a Logistics with nothing
a Communications agan no main weapon system
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robocop 2

by intel Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 11:54 PM

thanks for the explanation, you guys looked lost, the cops looked kinda shocked too, and you werent putting up any aggresive signs the only aggression I saw was from the protesters who wanted to bring the troops home (if they cared for troops why did they lash out at you?) this is what the friggin left needs to understand it's stupid shit like this that turns people off to our movement. it takes more than just saying 'oh soldiers are just mindless robots'... the fact that this nco is on la indymedia is kinda cool to begin with.

well i think everyone is kinda in an edgy state because of the elections












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Tian An Men Square in Los Angeles?!

by tian Thursday, Nov. 11, 2004 at 11:56 PM

Wow, I only thought Chinese goverment was the only one that sends tanks and troops to confront demostrators.

I did not realize Los Angeles has became the next "Tian An Men" Square!

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military does NOT "defend freedom"

by @ Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:13 AM

i would like to address this myth. the military, militarism, glorification of the military, military spending, and so on *do not* in any way, shape or form defend or support "freedom" (unless your idea of freedom is the shit we have now in the u.s.)

think about it: times of war are precisely those times where public debate, dissent, and individual liberty are most restricted. wars send poor people form one country to kill poor people in another country so a tiny group of people could benefit. there hasn't been a single goddamn war fought by the u.s. that has defended anybody's "freedom." what freedom was defended in 1898 by slaughtering filipinos and taking over cuba? what freedom was defended by dropping atomic bombs on civilians? what freedom was defended destroying entire societies and ecosystems in southeast asia, killing 5 million of its people, because vietnam wanted to be independent from colonialism? when has the u.s. military brought freedom to anyone, mcuh less its own citizens? i think the strongest argument you could make is world war 2, which gets hyped up and propagandized as the "good war" so that all future wars can be compared to it and thus justified. but the u.s. could ahve easily taken steps before that war ever broke out to avoid it from ever happening. study what the u.s.'s response was to fascism in spain in the 1930's. study what the u.s. had to say about hitler in his early years in power, calling him a "miracle" for his anti-union and pro-business policies.

this is not to insult people who are forced into the military because they ahve no other choice to get a job or pay for school, or because they are brainwashed into believing this patriotic bullshit. but we need to see the real issue behind u.s. military intervention, which is, and always has been, imperialism, not to defend anybody's "freedom."

if you want to know whay we have most of the "freedoms" we have, it's because ordinary, poor, marginalized people organized themselves, put their bodies on the line, and got in the streets to demand change. don't ever forget that. the concept that our freedoms and rights are benevolently ahnded down from above, and that the military protects them, is one of the most violent barriers to real social change.



"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC



"The most violent element in society is ignorance."

-Emma Goldman

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train them to use "mapquest"

by more rational Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:19 AM

These kids need to be trained to use "mapquest." You can search for it on the web. It's very high tech, just like the web.
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pissed

by pissed Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:21 AM

this country will be at civil war within a year. the winds are blowing.

do you know which side you're going to be on??
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joe palacio

by @ Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:24 AM

maybe you should ask the reagan administration why they supported saddam hussein when he was at his worse. so much for the u.s. being concerned with "freedom."

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pissed

by pissed Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:24 AM

why dont you shut your stupid ass mouth, nazi. are you pleased to see the military at all?

fascist!

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pissed

by pissed Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:27 AM

NOT YOU JOE...that last post was NOT in response to your post. that post was meant for some nazi warmonger waaaay earlier.

you made a great point about that asshole reagan.



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Mexican Consulate is NOT a Federal Bldg

by Double G Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:38 AM

To the person who commented that the Mexican Consulate is a federal building..consulates are sovereign property, technically belonging to the country it houses. In the case of the Mexican Consulate, officially the property it sits on is considered Mexican land and law enforcement officials need the country's permission before entering. It is NOT a federal building.
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Uncertain

by Uncertain Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:53 AM
shira.aliza@gmail.com

Um, I'm not sure about whether or not "Steve" has a valid argument, but according to the California Department of Veterans Affairs, there *was* a Veterans Day parade today, Wednesday 10, which would match Steve's story.

http://www.cdva.ca.gov/news/vetsday2004.pdf

It's possible that Steve found out about the parade and created the story to match up with the calendar, and it's possible that the tanks really were there for the sake of intimidation, but it's also possible that Steve's story is true.

While I don't like the idea of military being used to quell protest, I don't really believe that they'd choose to interrupt yet another protest at the Westwood Federal Building. Big deal. What good would it do? Protests at that building are a dime a dozen; you never even know what they're protesting anymore, but it's always something. For what little it's worth, I didn't see anything about it on the news, and whether or not the national outlets would pick it up, the local news stations would definitely be out there to scope out tanks if they were of significance. UPN and KTLA wouldn't pass it up over politics; it's a STORY.
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Mexican Consulate

by ame Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:54 AM

Furthermore the article on the Mexican Consulate incident states that it happened Tuesday morning, so if the tanks really were trying to find the Consulate as implyed above they were at least 10 hours late.
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"shame"? "stop killing babies"?

by more rational Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:59 AM

What the hell kind of taunts are those?

How about "JOIN OUR RESISTANCE".

"HELP STOP THE WAR".

"BUSH IS A LIAR".

In ANY large political movement, you *need* the support of the military. Sometimes, it's a feasible thing to get the military to turn against the administration. It happened in Vietnam, because there was a draft. I always thought that was one reason why the military doesn't like a draft.

If you can't get them to turn on their commanders, you can at least get non-compliance outside of battle situations. That's effective too.

Like Daniels said, the soldiers have a class interest, and they generally don't relish going to war, particularly one of aggression.

Let the commanders at Abu Ghraib blame the soldiers for fucking up. Let the VA hospital system allow vets to go homeless. Let's not be like those dirty military bureaucrats.

Hey Matt, how do you know that we aren't already buying cooperation from Saddam? If the "coalition" was serious, they would have offed him already. I think they kept him around for intel, and potentially to consult. They know him, and $probably$ $understand$ $what$ $makes$ $him$ $tick$. They can send him down to South America, maybe set him up at a resort where some Nazis are dying of old age.

Also, Sheepdog, maybe they modified a couple for parades, practice, and whatnot. Just an idea.

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errata

by more rational Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 1:26 AM

Sorry, I meant "soldiers" turning against the administration. The military didn't go against it, but individual soldiers did. If they didn't in combat, because, well, you can't really do that because it's treason (and a pretty shitty thing to do to your fellow soldiers), they did afterward. Or they went AWOL, or CO. My point is that these actions are significant. They help build the peace movement. Usually, the harshest, most powerful critics of the military are people who served in the military.

I'm never going to say those three loaded words, "support our troops," but please, try to understand our troops. Understand where they fit into the system, how they relate to the peace movement, and how they relate to our communities.
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USMC LAV not tanks

by Brad Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 1:50 AM
donnor@hotmail.com

Those vehicles are not tanks. As best as I can tell they look like Marine Corps Light Armored Vehicles, also known as the LAV-25. The LAV is an armored eight wheeled amphibious vehicle. It's main mission is recon and infantry transport. It's engine is in the front compartment and it has room for a squad of men in the rear. The standard gun turret has a 25mm automatic cannon and a co-axial 7.62mm machine gun.

here is a link http://www.1ofthefew.com/lav25.htm
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It's not a Tank

by Abraxas Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 2:35 AM

And it's not a "Stryker" fighting vehicle. It's a United States Marine Corps LAV III light armoured vehicle. It's main armament is a 25mm Bushmaster chain gun.

If anyone here honestly thinks the government is trying to violate the Posse Comititus Act, they're the dumbest person alive. The nearest Marine Corps base -- does anyone think the USMC drove a couple of LAV IIIs 80 MILES from Pendleton to L.A., hung around for ten minutes, then left?

Get over yourselves, friggin' hippy tree-hugging idiots.
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Call Bullshit Sorta

by Douglas Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 2:53 AM

OK, several things are wrong with the story although strangely enough, the gist of the story is probably true.

First, it is spelled Stryker, not Striker.

Second, the Stryker is currently only fielded by the Army. A Marine driving a Stryker would be as out of place as an Air Force pilot steering a destroyer.

Third, the vehicle in the photo of the original story is a LAV-25. LAV=light armored vehicle. The Marines do use the LAV-25 and has many of them at Camp Pendleton. They normally have three crew members and also carry six infantry so the gist of the story looks right.

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teacher

by teacher Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 3:30 AM

Right now USA is bombing Felluce FLAT.

For what? Because the Iraquis are defending their FREEDOM.
Against an oppressive regime that has killed over HUNDRED THOUSAND of them.

According to BBC, there are still 100,000 civilians in Felluce,
let's see how many of them survive the US atrocities
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Mr.

by T.McConnell Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 3:46 AM
supericanman@hotmail.com 805-478-6551

Kill dumb people? Bah-bah Demlibs? You ,my friend, are the pot calling the kettle black. But that is right-winged logic. It's okay to hate, as long as you paint the other guy up as evil. I'll bet you're a good church-goin' saint.
That's what's wrong with our country ... not enough of you righteous, god-fearin' people to keep us heathenistic, hell-bound, pagan liberals beat into submission.
Thank you for your concern and understanding.
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Intimidation Tactics

by kbfresh Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 5:34 AM
kbfresh1@yahoo.com

This video APPEARS to be evidence of intimidation much like the protestors at he Republican National Convention recieved(but without the tanks). I just wish the insurgents (or as the French now call them Resistance Fighters) could see these types of protests going on in America so that they would know that not all Americans are in support of what this administration is doing to them and their country.
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California

by Common Sense Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 5:54 AM
jason78@eml.cc

California.......the land of fruits and nuts. Answer is a completely useless organization.
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Oh. an out of state opinion

by Please Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 6:39 AM

If you have no information excepting your uncalled for opinion; relax
keep your hands in your pocket, read the posts and STFU, Common Sense.
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Lunacy

by Common Sense Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 6:47 AM

California is known worldwide as being one giant rubber room
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Whether or not it is technically a tank in military parlance does not matter!

by Civilian Casualty of the War on Civil Liberty Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 7:16 AM

Dear Sirs,

Though I am respectful of your knowledge of military fighting vehicles, I respectfully disagree with the idea that this sort of action by our government should be dismissed on the basis that the story did not correctly taxonomize the military fighting vehicle used to intimidate peaceful protestors. Whether or not this vehicle is in fact a tank is of little matter, the fact is, that for civilians the intimidating effect is the same whether it be a LAV or a Abrahms tank. This was an unecessary show of force and one which truly should be denounced by persons on all sides of the Iraq war issue; we as Americans need to defend our rights at home as well as abroad. In response to the comment made regarding the relative sanity of Californians, I cannot comment on its validity, but regardless of the sanity of protestors does it justify the use of military force to shut them up?
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Tanks in Westwood

by Kunundrum Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 7:28 AM

This will be the new America.....the right wing Neo Cons expect a Revolution. They may even want one to decrease the population and get rig of undesirables.
(the Good Guys) USA is A Faciest Dictatorship.....
GOD is WATCHING...... BUSH supporters have BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS
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No surprise

by Let's kill dumb people Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 8:43 AM

Would anyone really be surprised if there were tanks, or LAVs or whatever they are, rolling down the streets of any town in the U.S.? Isn't that where we're headed, toward a facist police state? It must be what we want, since we've let it happen by being stupid and apathetic. Like Adlai Stevenson said 50 years ago, people get the government they deserve, and the ignorant bumpkins that comprise the majority of this country, the great unwashed Wal-Mart masses, have got exactly what they deserve. That's why I think it's time for smart people to get rid of dumb people, the evolved do away with the unevolved. One moment of pain, then bliss.
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You still don't get it

by Sheepdog Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 8:48 AM

The killing has been underway for centuries. The smart people are the problem if they have that annoying moral sense. They are the target of the culling process known as war.
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Ahem...

by Bill Hicks Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 9:06 AM

No, truly evolved, aware people, those who keep their third eye squeeged clean, are not the problem, and that is who I believe Mr. Let's kill dumb people is referring to. Just being smart isn't enough, awareness must be there too. Our education system is failing, by design, to produce aware citizens, and that is why the lower classes vote heavily in favor of the rich and powerful - they are conditioned, through junk culture, to respond to primitive imagery, like Bush holding the Bible in one hand and the U.S. flag in the other while spewing lies. The poor, dumb, uneducated, unaware masses don't realize they're being manipulated....
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Yes, that's it!

by Let's kill dumb people Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 9:17 AM

Yes, Mr. Hicks, thank you, that is exactly right! I don't really advocate violence, I'm a tree-hugging long-hair hippy frustrated at the direction this country is heading and I think people need to be shocked into thinking about what's really going on. 'Nuff said.
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Just Freaky

by jas Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 9:35 AM


I was among the protestors at the Federal Building on November 9th. I believe out nation faces profound risks and has lost its moral compass by adopting the Bush preemptive attack doctrine. His extraordinary and close-minded positions require extraordinary energy in opposition.

When the "tanks" (okay LAV's) passed us the first time, we all just found it to be utterly bizarre. When they came back, it seemed way past bizarre.

The comment under the lead "Robo Cop" says he was in one of the LAV's and that their visit was not part of some intended "fly by" exercise. I'm glad that he weighed in here; it is comforting to know that some of the soldiers know we are out here and participate in the discourse.

He doesn't say what they were doing there. Maybe, they were on some other top secret mission to protect Westwood (or just a little too embarrassed to admit that they couldn't navigate LA streets). I don't really buy either of those explanations, but I suppose I still believe his statement that this was not intimidation directed at the protest (since that goal wouldn't make sense either).

In the middle of the incident, I did not perceive any animosity from the soldiers on the LAV's (they actually seemed friendly). I also want to note that the LAPD, who stepped in, were also controlled and professional. Young men in uniform are instruments to carry out the policies of our country's leadership. Although that makes most of them pawns for George Bush's wrongheaded plans, many of them (unlike their commander in chief) are conscientious and openminded citizens. We don't want to alienate them unnecessarily. They are faced with a dilemma that no American should be forced to deal with.

In my view, the protestors were (in general) not hostile to the soldiers either -- although everyone was anxious to make it clear that U.S. military vehicles don't belong at antiwar protests for any reason. Oh, of course, a few protestors can't resist overstating the message when faced with troops and military vehicles. Hey, most people who take some hours out of their daily lives to hold signs on public streets have deeply felt emotions.

This "incident" arose in the context of post-election 2004. The Bush Administration has made it all too clear that they will now be increasingly aggressive in pursuing their extreme right wing agenda, both domestically and abroad, while reaching across the political spectrum to reconcile with everyone who agrees with that agenda (huh?).

So, I guess the Westwood incident was probably just some freaky thing. That was this time. But, in an odd way, this does foretell where we are headed.

jas
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Free Tickets to Fallujada

by waltervee Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 9:36 AM
gudchinafoud@mindspring.com

Go join your other terrorists in Fallujada and get what you deserve.
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It's not a tank

by Jimmy James Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 9:57 AM
jimmyjames@gmail.com

Those aren't tanks... Those are strykers.
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americas ignorance +

by dacos Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 10:00 AM


I agree with @ that the wars are nothing more than a big smokescreen by the leaders of this country to make gains for a few at the expense of the mass.
Consider another angle in this current war on Iraq. It has been known for decades that the Caspian sea is a hotbed rich in petrolium and has become a focus of major exploration with the colapse of the soviet union. The eurasian states of the former USSR that stand to gain the most are the ones bordering this sea. They include Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, and Russia itself. Pipelines have already been laid from the Sea in Baku, Azerbaijan to its west most border with Armenia, crossing the northern border of Georgia, west to the Black Sea. Another line extends from Baku, Azerbaijan north along the sea and across the border with Russia, then breaks west to the west most border with the black sea. Still another starts in Tenzig, Kazakhstan following the Caspian around the sea to the north, then breaking west and finally continuing southwest across the border with its western neighbor Russia, terminating at Komsomolskaya, Russia. Another line is planned to run from the east coast of the Caspian sea in Krasnovodsk, Turkmenistan across the sea to the east bank of Baku, Azerbaijan then continuing west to Tbilisi, Georgia, Finally ending in Ceyhan, Turkey. Other routes are also under consideration, but I think if you look at a current world map you will be convinced as I am that this war is not about freedom for any one, but the greedy, ignorant, stupid american government, i.e. Haliburton, (Cheney) trying to take at least some control of this rich petrolium deposit. Does anyone see a connection between this war, the election results and the real reason that Bush Cheney started this war. I do and I hope you do to. Fight for Iraqi freedom, B.S.

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Coincidence

by Neutral-guy Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 10:03 AM

It does matter, military parlance or not. The fact is that because they are wheeled vehicles, they don't need any special permission to roll on civilian streets (just like all of those National Guard/Reserve Convoys), that's why the Police would have had no idea what was going on.
They were up from the San Deigo area, that they took a wrong turn off of the right exit is pretty likely.
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why?

by jeff whitefield Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 10:03 AM
chomskyreader@gmail.com

what did this change? will george w. bush stop the war now? sometime protesting just seems misguided and unproductive, but i guess someone has to do it. i mean i understand we cant let them get away with this shit, but isnt there a more productive way? one that will actually bring about change?
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mr

by nells Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 10:11 AM
nells@dodgeit.com

Welcome to the new U.S.A WAKE UP AMERICA INFOWARS.COM
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it was freaky

by lost Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 10:12 AM

I am the tanks author, you were right not to buy it we were there for a parade for the following day, and were lost la streets are a bit difficult to navigate and thank you for your very intellegent comments I thank you for being so kind to us we are your tools of freedom. I hope you continue to demand change I wouldn't have it any other way
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Ms.

by Angela Lynn Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 10:53 AM

See posting at blog http://www.conspiracyfact.blogspot,com">Homeland Security Blanket Brings Heat

Other references and links are available there.
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JB

by JB Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 11:07 AM
jb@aol.com n/a

For more info., you can go to:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/
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i have doubts about the story

by more rational Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 11:19 AM

Here's what I would do if I were driving the vehicle.

I would pull over away from the crowd, and send a guy to talk to the numerous police, to get directions. Why hassle with the demonstrators?

If the driver was, indeed, lost, I think there was an element of harrasment in pulling over and stopping near the demonstration.

Next time this happens, we need to get the name of their commanding officer, where they are stationed, and what division and/or company they're in.
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Tanks at Protest

by Murray Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 11:23 AM

There seems to be something that no-one has mentioned yet. The first being a reminder that this administration has proven its mastery of media manipulation. The second is that even a shortsighted, so-called christian (probably) would not react favorably to seeing armed and armored military vehicles being used on Americans.

So, keeping in mind the first item with the intent of taking care of the second, what better way to inoculate the media and their brain dead zombies by introducing tanks (for this purpose, it does not matter that they technically are not tanks) into the peace protest mix?

First, you just put them there without having them really do anything. This gets people use to seeing them there and, gradually, images of Tienneman (sp?) Square dissipate.

Once that happens, you can actually start using them. They'll start out being used as barricades, etc. Eventually, some activists will get hot-headed and altercations will start.

This is when you’ll see the true mastery at work. At first, the tanks will not be used to counteract any the altercations. This will lead to people speculating as to why the tanks weren’t used. Once it gets into the mainstream that they should have just used them, they will be used. It will even be argued that the “people” wanted them to be used. (Of course, it will be the political theater hacks like Rush and Tucker that will make these arguments publicly.)

It’s the kettle being brought to boil slowly.
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GPS

by lost Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 11:24 AM

Hey this vehicle the LAV -25 with a bushmaster cannon does not have a built-in GPS. The GPS we would use is a hand-held device that must be check out of an armory. Instead we did used map-quest which we all know is not very accurate. Do you really believe we were sent to intimidate you I think you are not being practical, and the parade was on the 10th, look it up? I am so trying to be understanding toward your cause, but you make it so hard with your rhetoric. You on one side calling troops murderers, poor dumb red necks and, how horrible our country is, and then the administration on the complete opposite you mean there is no compromise, no understanding you all are starting to make me sick and I mean both sides. Also, we all take offence to all the OH they are poor and do not know better. You think we get paid well here? You are so wrong, no one joins for money, it is something you obviously will never understand. FYI most of our unit are college graduates and come from affluent areas of Orange County and San Diego County so much for the dumb poor red neck myth.
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GPS

by lost Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 11:25 AM

Hey this vehicle the LAV -25 with a bushmaster cannon does not have a built-in GPS. The GPS we would use is a hand-held device that must be check out of an armory. Instead we did used map-quest which we all know is not very accurate. Do you really believe we were sent to intimidate you I think you are not being practical, and the parade was on the 10th, look it up? I am so trying to be understanding toward your cause, but you make it so hard with your rhetoric. You on one side calling troops murderers, poor dumb red necks and, how horrible our country is, and then the administration on the complete opposite you mean there is no compromise, no understanding you all are starting to make me sick and I mean both sides. Also, we all take offence to all the OH they are poor and do not know better. You think we get paid well here? You are so wrong, no one joins for money, it is something you obviously will never understand. FYI most of our unit are college graduates and come from affluent areas of Orange County and San Diego County so much for the dumb poor red neck myth.
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yes, smart people designed the war machine

by more rational Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 11:30 AM

It wasn't dumb people who engineered the LAV.

It was a bunch of well-paid smart people.

What you need are more smart people willing to say "no" to the development of the tools of death.

Dumb people didn't write USA PATRIOT, the Tax Cuts for the Wealthy, and Bush's deceptive campaign. Dumb people didn't invent Enron, or their complex money-hiding schemes.

Smart, conservative lawyer/accountant/police-types did.

They very intelligently understood that they were the "overclass". The wealthy and powerful, who were threatened by the general prosperity, and did everything to keep thei wealth and power, and LIE to the people about the massive screwover they're pulling.
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come on

by lost Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 11:32 AM

Hey this vehicle the LAV -25 with a bushmaster cannon does not have a built-in GPS. The GPS we would use is a hand-held device that must be check out of an armory. Instead we did used map-quest which we all know is not very accurate. Do you really believe we were sent to intimidate you I think you are not being practical, and the parade was on the 10th, look it up? I am so trying to be understanding toward your cause, but you make it so hard with your rhetoric. You on one side calling troops murderers, poor dumb red necks and, how horrible our country is, and then the administration on the complete opposite you mean there is no compromise, no understanding you all are starting to make me sick and I mean both sides. Also, we all take offence to all the OH they are poor and do not know better. You think we get paid well here? You are so wrong, no one joins for money, it is something you obviously will never understand. FYI most of our unit are college graduates and come from affluent areas of Orange County and San Diego County so much for the dumb poor red neck myth.
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Ms

by Angela Lynn Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 11:39 AM

another source is here:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/11/1540230">Democracy Now
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oh yeah, they send the rednecks into combat...

by more rational Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 11:52 AM

Sad to say, but my guess is that the genuine poor white folks with only a high school diploma were probably shipped out nice and soon.

I mean, look at the color of the locals getting killed. They're pretty brown.

In Vietnam, African Americans, then in their own civil rights struggle, were killed disproportionately. In WW2, the 442nd company, composed of Japanese Americans (who were interned at the time) suffered a casualty rate of over 50%.

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/s_z/stevens/africanamer.htm

http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0210341/442nd/splash442nd.htm
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you work for the enemy of freedom

by smaze one Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:02 PM

THIS IS NOT A MYTH... the united states military is owned by the global banking machine..so are you. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed by the U.S. military in Iraq alone...MURDER IS NO MYTH.
Is it un-wise. or, "dumb" to join the military at this time based on insufficient knowledge of it's true mission in the middle-east? YES.
IF YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE THERE TO PROTECT THE UNITED STATES.. THAT IS SAD.. VERY SAD BECAUSE YOU ARE BEING USED AS DECOY PAWNS IN THE GLOBAL AGENDA. You are actually serving to destroy what is left of America by equatting it to global oppression and war crimes.. You are part of the Global Reformation propaganda machine and you think you are patriots?The same agenda that will have Bush and the current military agenda written down as criminals in the history books.
If you were TRUE patriots you might be out on the streets with the people who are excercising the constitutional rights that your bosses are waging a war against. I am not judging the soldiers who are un-informed about the issue as "dumb rednecks" But i am making the OBSERVATION that you are pumped with propaganda and very MIS-INFORMED as to the history of U.S. imperialism and the GLOBAL BANKING INSTITUTION that owns you.
"left" and "right" wings are both part of that same sick bird. THINK FORYOURSELVES. ACT FOR OTHERS.
Good thoughts..good words..good deeds
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President

by American Rationalist Party Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:21 PM

Okay, I saw the video, I'll admit, the vehicles looked very fake from the still shot, but upon further review, the vehicles are probably light armor vehicles, but they ARE NOT STRYKERS OR ABRAMS TANKS. Part of the reason why I initially thought they were fake was because they were so small, now I realize it was just a different vehicle, still...

they guy who thinks there is a global conspiracy is right, but the world bank isn't the source. The UN and the EU and other coalitions are trying to globalize the world under a socialist agenda, that is a fact. America's sovereignty, and it's ability to defend itself from anyone, anywhere, unilaterally if necessary, is a threat to those that want to push the socialist agenda. Why else is the media and hollywood and hippy musicians praising communist murderers and dubbing Bush a "devil" while guys like Saddam, Castro, etc get labeled as "victims"?

Wake up, communism isn't the answer, we proved that. Anyone who tries to feed you that crap is catagorically mis-lead. Socialism is the experiment that sounded great, but died miserably. Those 10 or 15 protestors need to go out and get a life.
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President

by American Rationalist Party Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 12:27 PM

Oh yeah, and calling our soldiers misled rednecks, and then insisting we should do good deeds just goes to show how hypocritical you are, how twisted up and sick in the head you are, taht you are so self-righteous, you feel the need to force "good" on everyone. Wasn't there a certain Iraqi dictator just like that? Hmmm....
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mr

by ukliberal Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 1:01 PM

this looks like a stunt. i doubt the military would behave in this way...
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dear sad men of might

by smaze one Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 1:05 PM

"Dictator" and "good" are opposite of each other. Be it Iraqi or American or Household. Prez- you make no sense.
SELF RIGHTEOUS!!?...what the hell do you call "enduring freedom" asshole?
I never advicated communism. And where is the fault in what i wrote? STOP HIDING BEHIND MINDLESS RHETORIC given to you by social engineers!!
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Mr. mr

by Police State Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 2:38 PM

neither the tanks nor the baton blow i took in the back by the cowardly Westside pigs for stopping them was staged. this was clearly a show of force by the US Army reserve unit in West L.A.
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Ohio State??? ummmm

by Gordo Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 3:07 PM

Ohio State??

Please review your history. You may be refering to Kent State.
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Too Bad

by Bah-Bah Demlib Sheep Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 3:20 PM

The Stryker is not a tank with tracks, heavy armor and a big cannon, but an Armored Fighting Vehicle with wheels, thin armor and a small cannon. It's amazingly similar to the Marine Corps' LAV (Light Armored Vehicle), only a bit bigger--surely worth the zillions it took to "develop" the same AFV in a bigger size.

Look around and you'll notice our only Main Battle Tank is the M1A1/A2 Abrams, and they're all in Iraq keeping us safe from WMDs and terists who hit us on 9/11.

All war-loving, patriotic republicans should learn the differences between our tank and our AFVs so when you join up to fight this war you all love so much--you are all joining up, right?--you won't jump on the wrong one.
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Not all Dems are Idiots

by dano Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 4:00 PM

For the record, not all democrats and liberals are idiots like these protesters. Some of us actually agree that 'bringing the troops home' would be a mistake and realize the difference between bad presidential foreign policy and the good soldiers that serve in the military.

Protests like these do nothing but build resentment for 'liberals.'
Thanks for damaging the cause, guys! Yeesh.
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ex mind slave

by ex corporate share-cropper Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 4:04 PM

ahh, right and left wing part of the same bird of oppression from international money holders .. indeed .. let us remember the words of Rothschild. Everyone, find "secret weapons for silent wars" on the net and study the ideas presented. They may not be completely true, or wholesome and complete, but it provides the fuel to start the fires of cleansing. Money runs the world motherfuckers learn that, then start the search for truth. Socialism is another ploy to trick the people out of the wealth they hold in their soul as well as their land (which was bought out already, all that is left is the "human resources"), and capitalism is unabashed theft under the guise of wealth for all ... lol
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The Kerry Demonazi "Dano"

by Police State Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 4:11 PM

you are probably one the many Deomnazi's i ran into on the streets who told me i couldn't vote for Nader or that voting my conscience (Nader) was a vote for Bush. Now who are you going to blame? You don't have Nader to blame this on. how about the fact that Kerry is a right-wing democrat and people like you who believe the war "can be won" aren't needed on the protest line anyhow.
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Ms

by Katrin Howard Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 5:08 PM

I live in L.A. and was there at the Demonstration.
On the same day some man took a woman hostage at gunpoint at the Mexican Consulate in the Federal Bldg.
We have been having protests on Wilshire in front of the Federal Bldg. in Westwood for a long time now.
In my opinion, the "tank presence" was a scare tactic-and we have had some high alert/homeland security concerns at LAX lately. CA is a blue state and even though Mayor Hahn is a wuss, the residents and money on the westside rule that part of town. Many of those people are in the Entertainment business and DETEST BUSH. One thing the WH keep forgetting about CA, with 54 Electoral Votes - Los Angeles IS the economy in CA, we are a company town, with 4-5 major studios/major networks that are international and MAKE TONS O' BUCKS every second of the day--our FED TAX BASE IS ENORMOUS--and the Governator is SURROUNDED BY DEMOCRATS IN SACRAMENTO-Including his Kennedy wife, Maria.
The REAL power people in Hollywood 'Toy with the hypocrites of D.C.' -- they have tremendous money and influence and HATE BUSH with a passion-that is why D.C. is always bashing LA and Hollywood.
CA and other BLUE STATES are beginning to look into seceding from the Feds-afterall, the 2 coasts SUPPORT THE FED TAX BASE--THE RED STATES HAVE NO TAX BASE-THEY ARE VAMPIRES SUCKING OFF THOSE THEY SEEK TO RULE and RIDICULE.
SCREW THEM! WE WILL LEAVE THEM HIGH AND DRY-LET BUSH WRITE THE RED STATES A BAIL OUT CHECK FROM HIS PERSONAL ACCOUNT!
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PAC USCG (ret)

by Mackensie Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 5:31 PM

As a former enlisted guy and a anti-war guy, frankly, I'm embarassed by the rhetoric here. How you expect to motivate the country is totally beyond me. Christ, a couple of guys who don't know LA, using a printout from Mapquest get lost and the next thing you know it's black helicopters and suspension of posse commitas. It's so clear that a alot of the antiwar movement simply has no idea how the military works, probably because it clashes with a closely held (and steel trap shut) mindset.

The only way we are going to be able to put our country, I repeat, OUR country back on track is to unite people and not fall prey to crazy-ass notions such as those expressed in this thread. This isn't the 30s and Spain or 68 and Vietnam. The crisis of today requires new, braver thinking and consensus across the strata of society.

btw, I live on the east coast, but was in LA last week on vacation. I depended on Mapquest and found myself lost any number of times! But I was in a rented mustang, not an LAV, I have to say.
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More on my Posse Comitatus Comment

by Michael Boldin Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 6:54 PM
mboldin@populistamerica.com

Just a quick clarification on my previous comment. First of all, I'm a Bill of Rights supporting old-fashioned conservative. I believe in the Bill of Rights, and laws such as the Posse Comitatus Act. I read someone's comment stating that is was implied by myself or another poster that the government was "trying to violate" this act, when in fact, my posting never said any such thing, and as far as I can see, Thom's posting just made a statement on how the Posse Comitatus act is all but dead - to which I agree. I just put that up there because I felt it was appropriate information in a time when we are seeing the military getting more and more involved in civilian law enforcement. Don't believe it's happening around the country? Well, you might want to research it, and suddenly we'll have a greater interest in the nearly-mothballed Posse Comitatus Act. If anyone feels I'm a tree-hugging liberal, or a pompous gun-toting conservative, feel free to email me directly - and I'll gladly banter with you. mboldin@populistamerica.com
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mr

by guyontheturret Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 9:10 PM

Hi, I'm actually on top of that LAV and we didnt know about your little protest. We were on our way to a parade that was going to happen the next morning. Please don't think this is a police state or we were sent to take you guys out. Before i go, why is it that there were people with signs saying bring the troops home, but then at the same time they were giving us the middle finger and telling us they wanted us dead and they themselves were going to kill us?
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Why?

by D Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 9:12 PM

Inspiromg as the image of Tinanmen Square became for public Chinese world relations, is this what the citizens of a free society should have to witness in the streets of the LA.? Where will we witness it next? Kansas City, Madison, Cincinnati, Columbus, Akron, Cleveland, Cuyahoga Falls, Iowa City, Chicago, New York, Seattle, New Orleans, Charlotte, Atlanta, Austin, Houston, Dallas, Tallahassee, Miami, or DC. Have we seen the future of free social dissent in this very tiny clip from laindymedia.com?

The image of the tanks against human beings changed the course of Chinese world relations. Is there hope that this image of tanks in the streets of LA will change the course of US relations to the world? Here's to the folks that had to feel this oppression and here's to their bravery for standing their ground.

W-- We can only hope that this oppressive image will bring our newly elected administration to its knees literally and figuratively. W-- you owe the citizens of the US who witnessed this event and those who will not have the disdainful pleasure of witnessing it an apology. Shame on you, W, as a leader of the world's exemplary democracy, how do you ever expect to export your ideals of freedom and democracy when you have tanks combing small time protests in our neighborhoods?
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Why?

by D Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 9:14 PM

Inspiring as the image of Tinanmen Square became for public Chinese world relations, is this what the citizens of a free society should have to witness in the streets of the LA.? Where will we witness it next? Kansas City, Madison, Cincinnati, Columbus, Akron, Cleveland, Cuyahoga Falls, Iowa City, Chicago, New York, Seattle, New Orleans, Charlotte, Atlanta, Austin, Houston, Dallas, Tallahassee, Miami, or DC. Have we seen the future of free social dissent in this very tiny clip from laindymedia.com?

The image of the tanks against human beings changed the course of Chinese world relations. Is there hope that this image of tanks in the streets of LA will change the course of US relations to the world? Here's to the folks that had to feel this oppression and here's to their bravery for standing their ground.

W-- We can only hope that this oppressive image will bring our newly elected administration to its knees literally and figuratively. W-- you owe the citizens of the US who witnessed this event and those who will not have the disdainful pleasure of witnessing it an apology. Shame on you, W, as a leader of the world's exemplary democracy, how do you ever expect to export your ideals of freedom and democracy when you have tanks combing small time protests in our neighborhoods?
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Believe this

by 2nd guy on the right Friday, Nov. 12, 2004 at 11:02 PM

I'm the second guy on the right. Our corporal received orders to route by the protest and we were directed to stop in front of you and then to go around the block and stop again. Don't believe any more of the anonymous comments you're reading here.

Bill McAndrews
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THIS

by YourInnerAdult Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 6:04 AM

is exactly why the lunatic left has lost every last shred of credibility and is doomed to marginal loserville for the foreseeable future.

Please, keep it up!

DEAN FOR DNC CHAIR!


YEEEAAAAAAARRRRRGH!

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This is by far...

by X Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 6:13 AM

After reading this entire thing from top to bottom, I can safely conclude the following:

This is by far the biggest cesspool of ignorant, misinformed, left wing, liberal conspiracy theorists I have ever seen.
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This was all staged. It's Hollywood baby!

by Ida Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 7:03 AM

I think everyone needs to calm down. Michael Moore featured this story at his web site on November 10 and 11. Moore is the master of propaganda. The information for this 'news story' was taken from one of the demonstrators, NOT a journalist or an unbiased witness. There is a video, filmed with a hand held camera. It's very interesting. I've seen it. It's blurry and hard to see some images, but I could not see ANY markings on these 'tanks,' nor could I see any markings on the 'soldiers' uniforms. I find this very suspicious.

The police only showed up to keep people off of the very busy street and away from heavy traffic. Number of police is three. Only heard the voice of one or two. Number of demonstrators was listed as 'hundreds' but only looked like maybe 25. Several people walking past or just watching, but do they count? Hundreds driving past, surely they do not count!

Don't you all find it odd that there are no media pictures or stories on the wires or the local and national U.S. news about this incident? You think military tanks moving through Los Angeles, California would generate more press coverage. This story is very odd and it sounds like it was staged. Tanks do not just 'drive by.'

HInt to this being planned and staged - - - if 'lost' as suggested, why didn't the 'soldiers' talk to the police that where there? The video shows three 'soldiers' per 'tank' and no one is talking.

Los Angeles is Hollywood baby!!! This was all faked to get attention. Ummm, I think it worked! I hope this IS investigated. We'll all find out who was behind this stunt.

Show me more factual independent proof, not just blogs or message boards. The police were there, check their reports of this incident. Oh, yeah, they're the boggy man too!!?!!
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ITS MASTER CHIEF

by Me Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 11:23 AM

Seriously the guy in the tank looks like master chief!
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Staged? SUUURRE

by Dig Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 11:50 AM

So Michael Moore is the "master of propaganda?" Too bad we have absolutely nothing to say about Ann Coulter's vile and filth. I guess you consider that thing "unbiased."

Get over it. George the Murderer is turning this country into a theocracy and military dictatorship combined.

He didn't win either election. The first time he had his daddy's friends on the Supreme Court hand him his job and the second time his friends at Diebold gave it to him (funny how the head of Diebold, a die hard Republican, said LAST YEAR that he was "committed to devliering Ohio" for George in this year's election. The majority voted Kerry yet Georgie comes out the winner.

SUUURRE!
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To Ida... YOU'RE AN IDIOT

by the guy standing down the tanks Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 11:54 AM

you want proof this was not staged? Perhaps you should come by my home sometime this weekend and take a look at the bruises i sustained because i stood down the tanks last Tuesday night? would that be proof enough for you you f-king coward.
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Audio from Democracy Now

by Report from the event Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 12:11 PM

audio: MP3 at 573.1 kibibytes

MP3 file
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YOU NEED TO READ THIS

by i was there!!! Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 1:22 PM

I'LL TELL YOU ALL THIS, Y'ALL STUPID!!! THOSE MANIACS BLOCKED THE LAVS THEY WOULDNT LET THEM THROUGH. THEY ARE NOT SOLDIERS THEY ARE MARINES THEY WERE THERE FOR THE PARADE THAT WAS TO BE HELD THE NEXT DAY. THIS IS WHY AMERICA IS STUPID. YOU ALL SIT AROUND AND THINK OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND THAT YOUR LITTLE CAUSE AND PROTEST WOULD EVEN GET THE ATTENTION OF THE MARINE CORPS OR THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT. GET OVER IT STOP TRYING TO MAKE A BIG DEAL OUT OF IT YOU LOSERS. NO ONE CARES IF YOU PROTEST OR NOT. YOU ALL MUST BE A BUNCH OF BORED PEOPLE WITH NOTHING GOING ON IN YOUR LIVES TO EVEN MAKE A BIG DEAL OUT OF THIS AND I BET THAT WHEN YOUR OLDER YOU'LL ALL TELL YOUR KIDS HOW THE EVIL GOVERNMENT TRIED TO RUN YOU OVER WITH TANKS... THEY'RE NOT TANKS!!!! SHAME ON EVERYBODY FOR TALKING BAD ABOUT THE MILITARY AND TELLING THEM TO DIE AND GO TO HELL. ITS BECAUSE OF THESE FINE YOUNG MEN THAT YOU CAN EVEN STAND OUT THERE AND PROTEST. YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PROTEST IN OTHER COUNTRIES. YOU ALL TAKE FOR GRANTED AND DO NOT APPRECIATE WHAT YOU HAVE.
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More Police State measures

by deeperpolitics Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 3:16 PM
woollam1@telus.net 250-748-6997 Canada

I tend to side with Alex Jones from <http://www.infowars.com > who has put out a number of videos which detail how police state measures are gradually being introduced to the American citizenry. Up here in Canada we laugh at the bogus “terror alerts” that inundate American city and highway traffic info signs. Alex Jones has a point that the people in general are being “dummied down” by the sporatic yet continuous “terror operations” that the military and police are being told to carry out. Told by whom?? Who is calling the shots?


Firstly, these “pretend terror operations” have the impact of de-sensitizing the citizenry to military force and armed presence….all in the name of Home Security.


Secondly, these “ops” impact on the mindset of the troops and police involved by de-sensitizing them to their own rough-housing of their own fellow citizens….

That means troops blindly follow their directives…daring not to question their legitamacy…or their lack of humanity. Cause hey, “We don’t want another 9-11 …right!”


That is why understanding the cover up, lies, and complicity of the US Intelligence head office under the watchful eye of the present Commander and Chief ….is so important. Without researching and reading alternate info sources and delving deeply into unanswered questions…we are left misinformed and misguided by corrupt corporate politicians as they laugh their way to the bank.


I mean, after war was declared, Congress increases military spending by 87 billion. Who receives those military weapons contracts? Now that would be a list of who’s who.


If you have read my (ever-repeated) blog that I placed in the thread # F00186 titled ” 9/11 ” at
< http://www.guerrillanews.com/forum/ >
... you will understand why some of us feel it only takes another insider instigated act of terrorism … and even tighter “security” measures will be welcomed by the unknowing American public.


The same can be said regarding who is next to be “liberated” by US military aggression. Just watch the CNN White House “spin” and they will tell you in advance who we, the public, must fear …and ultimately annex by US “intervention”.


Mainstream television news and newspaper jibe are looked at by most Canadians as the propaganda wing of the corporate politicians wishing to manufacture the consent of the masses to war on desirable countries…not just for the spoils of war such as oil, opium, land and fresh water….but to maintain their billion dollar military contracts (allotted to their affiliated weapons cartels)

I mean come on…does Iran, North Korea or India even pose a threat with or without nuclear weapons??? Is it not their nuclear capability which prevents them from being harassed by corporate politicians out to exploit Third World nations for their resources?


Even still, we have the International Monetary Fund and The World Trade Organization to come in and bankrupt a country within a few years…promising great success but in reality leaving a country financially dependent on huge loans tied to Trade Agreements which leave their farmers impoverished and unable to compete with surplus potatoes or powdered milk dumped into their markets from wealthy Western nations which subsidize their dairy and farming industries.


Economic takeover due to Globalist policies….or military takeovers due to Globalist policies…both result in the misinformed masses impoverished… and often fighting and dying in wars which only benefit the wealthy elite and their colluders.

To many Canadians the American election (not even mentioning the electronic voting fraud we witnessed) was dissappointing because both Bush and Kerry were waving the banner for more bogus war-on-terrorism. To understand why the world views the war-on-terrorism as ‘bogus’ you need to look at my other blog on Forum Thread F00228 titled “Al Qaeda is under the auspices of the CIA” . It is on page 4 at this present time...at
< http://www.guerrillanews.com/forum/ >
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LA Freeways

by james Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 3:34 PM
frye@cs.unr.edu

Can I ask a question here? How many of you have ever lived in or visited the LA Basin? I have, and it is very, very easy for a stranger to get lost on the freeway system. You see, all the freeways have names, which the natives know, and which appear on the signs, along with towns you've never heard of. The maps, however, have the standard route numbers. So you're for instance heading north on I405 from Pendleton, and want to go east on I10, but instead the sign says "San Bernadino Freeway - Pomona".

So yes, the story about the Marines getting lost is perfectly believable to me. I did it more than once when I was at Pendleton.

As for the protesters, even if I were inclined to their beliefs, I'd certainly be put off by what I've read here. Not just the general level of irrational paranoia, but the sheer lack of spelling, grammar, and common courtesy. I'm a long, long way from being the most socially-perceptive kid on the block, but even I know that calling people names is not the way to persuade them to share your views.
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I'm sure you've read

by Just curious Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 4:33 PM

I'm sure you've read the relevant Supreme Court decision, then?
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To James

by Sheepdog Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 5:24 PM

Yes, let's have common courtesy Keep the damned armor off of our streets. And it's either sloppy logistcs by getting lost or willfull intent to intimadate us with heavy weapons unless we get to carry RPG's also on the streets.
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Ugh.

by Jadeite Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 6:29 PM

See? This is why us liberals lost the election, it's because people get turned off to tinfoil conspiracies like this. "OMG Tianammen Square111!" is not a way to win people over. Your lives were never in danger, and comparing yourselves and this protest to the Chinese crackdown is an insult to real protestors, not charlatans like yourselves!
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Lithium for all!!!!!

by Rutiger Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 6:30 PM

Lithium! Lithium! Lithium! 90% of the posters here are nut-jobs. Quoting Emma Goldmen and saying that the marines are the bad guys?! Where are the hammer and sickles, y'all?

Look out! The evil capatilists are coming! And do they always win (for reasons that should be obvious.)
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American

by fellow american Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 8:44 PM

regarding kilichins comment. his words dont upset me. i understand he doesnt understand. hes a product of society. dont hate him. love him so he can learn. like jesus said. anyway,"ACCEPT". accept what? that people are being unjustly killed. and who is to say what is just anyway. people are getting killed, mothers sisters brothers, who cares which side of the imaginary line they are 'from'. we are all humans. weall love, all cry when a loved one dies and the pain is just the same. so why. why accept it. babies dying. i dont accept it!!!!!!!!!! i wish i would grow some balls and do something more. life deserves it.
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i love all humans

by fellow american Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 9:07 PM
dont give up, freedom awaits

I like how they did it back in the day when the king or bush was at the front line commanding the army. it kept em honest. if a leader wont fight his own war...
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i love all humans

by fellow american Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 9:07 PM
dont give up, freedom awaits

I like how they did it back in the day when the king or bush was at the front line commanding the army. it kept em honest. if a leader wont fight his own war...
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What's that all about?

by TW Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 10:04 PM

I wonder if the military could explain this deployment? Is this constitutional? Why are we not seeing this in our newspapers or TV news? Do I see an implied threat and/or belligerency towards a group of people who appeared to be expressing their opinion, as you do, in a free society? Yes. Let the military explain this.
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fossil fuel

by fellow american Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 10:09 PM
please read

us humans have the tech to have fast clean burning cars and trucks. the oil companies get the patents and hold them in their pockets and sell their earthly life destroying devices. maybe this is what the bible was talking about. maybe gods waiting for one of us to be jesus. maybe we have to save ourselves or suffer the conciquence. what the hell do i do!!!!!!!!!. i think we must unite and rebel. the earth can not phisically wait for us to systematically chage. by the way... if the devil ran the world he wouldnt let you know. he'd have us kill god in the name of god
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To Jadette

by Sheepdog Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 10:15 PM

'liberals lost the election,'
You mean democracy lost the 'election'.
The problem is that there wasn't an election. The real terrorists, the CIA and FBI rule from the shadows under the blanket of national security and their masters have unleashed these gangters againts the people of my country.
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Account .... Explain ......

by TW Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 10:36 PM

I think the protesters should demand an accounting and full explanation from the military as to the reasons for the presence of the military vehicles. I saw the movie again and I find it very disturbing. The military vehicles appeared to be quite out of place. GET THEM TO EXPLAIN.
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More Info on Tanks from Congressman Waxman's Office

by Ich Bin Ein Fallujan Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 10:57 PM

Here's some more info from Waxman's office on the tanks:

http://wilddemride.blogspot.com/2004/11/tanks-in-los-angeles.html

For still pictures and an eyewitness account (mine), see:

http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118943.php
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CLEAR THIS UP NOW!!!

by G.O.D Saturday, Nov. 13, 2004 at 11:41 PM

LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING TW. YOUR STUPID HAVNT YOU BEEN READING ALL THESE COMMENTS AND WHAT THE LA TIMES DISCOVERED?? THEY CALLED UP CAMP PENDLETON AND WERE TOLD THAT 2 LAV'S LEFT TO GO TO A PARADE THAT WAS TO BE HELD ON THE 10TH. THOSE GUYS WERE CLEARLY LOST IN LA AND IF U WATCHED THE VIDEO YOU'D HEAR SOME IDIOT YELLING OUT " HEY BLOCK THEM GET IN FRONT OF THEM." THEY WERE TRYING TO TURN BUT GOT BLOCKED BY THOSE IDIOTS. STOP THINKING THAT ANYBODY NEEDS AN APOLOGY OR AN EXPLAINATION, CAUSE ITS ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED. SO TO ALL YOU IDIOTS OUT THERE THAT WANT TO MAKE A BIG DEAL OUT OF THIS. GET OVER IT. WHY WOULD THE UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS SEND OUT 2 LAV 25'S FROM 90 MILES AWAY, UNARMED, TO SQUASH A GROUP OF BORED HOUSEWIVES AND DADS. LAV'S HAVE TIRES THEY CAN DRIVE ON THE STREETS. CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW MUCH MONEY THE MILITARY WOULD WASTE IF EVERYTIME THEY HAD TO MOVE ONE OF THESE THINGS THEY HAD TO CALL UP A FLAT BED??? HEY ITS GOT WHEELS DRIVE IT. Y'ALL JUST A BUNCH OF CLOWNS SITTING AT HOME WATCHING TOO MUCH CONSPIRACY THEORY. NOW LETS STOP ARGUING ABOUT WHAT THESE THINGS ARE... THEY ARE LAV 25'S. THEY WERE THERE FOR A PARADE THAT WAS GOING TO BE HELD THE NEXT DAY. THEY GOT LOST IN LA. THESE FOOLS GOT IN FRONT OF THE LAV'S AND BLOCKED THEM. WHAT DO Y'ALL WANT THEM TO DO??? RUN THE PEOPLE OVER OR JUST SIT THERE FOR 5 MINUTES LIKE THEY DID??? THE MARINES DIDNT SAY ANYTHING TO THE PROTESTERS. THEY DIDNT CARE ABOUT THE PROTEST THEY JUST WANTED TO FIND THE ARMY RESERVE CENTER, WHICH WAS ON THE SAME BLOCK , AND GO TO SLEEP. IF ANY ONE OF YOU ARE EVER IN OCEANSIDE , WHEN I DRIVE BY THERE I ALWAYS SEE LAV'S DRIVING ON THE FREEWAY. THOSE MARINES WERE AS SURPRISED TO SEE THE PROTEST AS THE PROTESTERS WERE SURPRISED TO SEE THEM. OK SO ENOUGH ABOUT THIS " TANKS AT THE PROTEST CRAP" IM SICK OF HEARING ABOUT IT. DON'T Y'ALL GOT SOMETHING ELSE BETTER TO DO??? LIKE BUY STUFF ON EBAY?? OR MAKE SIGNS AND PRATICE YOUR HELL NO WE WONT GO CHANTS???
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M

by M Sunday, Nov. 14, 2004 at 1:31 AM

D, the scary thing about what you wrote is the fact that you actually believe it.
The only reason W is in the White House is because he believes in something and he could articulate it to 58 million other Americans. He doesnt need the military to squash a few peaceful protesters in LA. Get grip. It is that kind of thinking that kept the Democrats out the White House. Most Americans didnt buy the story. K appeared to have convictions about nothing. Until the Democrats stop pandering to the extremes they wont occupy the White House. Most Americans are comfortably in the middle. A well spoken moderate Democrat who believes in his or her message will win in 2008. He or she will not need to read the latest poll to tell them how to think. Thats how to win the White House.
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Totally Hillary-ous

by Dr. Demento Sunday, Nov. 14, 2004 at 5:49 AM

I guess the crowd couldn't find enough flights from
LAX to attend Arafat's funeral.

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Go Easy on Israel, DAMMIT!

by John Kerry-Kohn Sunday, Nov. 14, 2004 at 7:45 AM

t the wake of Arafat's wake,
let's take a closer look at Terrorism.

But first, let us place Russia's historical
financial and military support and takeovers
of many nations of non-Russian citizenry;
in particular (USSR) North Korea in 1948
and the majority of the Islamic nations
during the post-WWII period,
on the Side Burner for a minute or two.

+++++++

It is argued: "Israel is the
keystone to understanding
the impetus which lies behind
world terrorism."

Consider:

1. Israel is no stranger to
terrorism. Israel's arguably
successful policy against
terrorism starts by carrying a
very big stick, which not only
is no stranger to mass
imprisonment, curfews,
constant document
checking, bulldozings and
the erection of high walls
which prevent movements of
peoples, it also calls for a
frequent show of almost all
levels of Israel's powerful
military prowess - directed at
any who are involved in or
suspected of being sympathic
with terrorists.

2. American tactics and strategy in urban warfare in Iraq
are said to be based upon the Israel model.

3. American involvement in
Iraq has not brought about
any criticism from Israel.

4. Not a few observers firmly
believe that the 9/11 terrorist
attack upon America was
rooted in a broadscale hatred
of Israel - in particular - of
Zionism policies.

5. In the tragic days
immediately following 9/11,
Israel called for America to
focus it's sights upon Iraq.
Meanwhile, the American
president had other sights in
mind; namely Afghanistan.
Who knows if we would have
the debacle today in Iraq, if
Bush listened to Israel then?

6. Barring a few dissident
American politicians - such
as Pat Buchanan and Ralph
Nader who were particularly
critical of Israel and the
American Jewish Lobby
during this hectic presidential
election year - both major
American political parties
stand firmly behind support
of Israel: from continuance of
record-high levels of
military materiel support,
to additional $Billions per year
in financial support.

7. Some critics of Israel go so
far as to suggest that the
American "raison de guerre"
in Iraq - the so-called
Weapons of Mass Destruction
- were an Israeli-centric, and
further, an Israeli "suggested"
notion, which, included items
e.g. "rockets whose range
was 90 km or more", in other
words, rockets capable of
reaching Israel.

8. A controversial survey of
EU nations, conducted in Oct,
2003, by Taylor Nelson
Sofres/EOS Gallup of Europe,
consisted of 15 questions
regarding "the reconstruction
of Iraq, the conflict in the
Middle East and World peace"
The poll found 59 percent of
Europeans believe Israel
represents the biggest
obstacle to MidEast and
World Peace.
____________________

While few deny the idea that
Israel has been encouraged
by American deconstuction of
it's close & dangerous enemy,
Iraq, others are alarmed at
the growing charges that
Zionism's policy is exclusive
to Jews!

An informal poll taken among
some corporate officers in NY
immediately after the attacks
on the WTC, found a startling
agreement in the rumor that
President Bush could have
instantly stopped terrorism
around the world by invoking
two words: "Dump Israel!"
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USE FORCE !

by Kevin Puppos Sunday, Nov. 14, 2004 at 9:22 AM
t.puppos@solarstop.net

USE OF FORCE is the only possible way to bring significant social change to America !
This world needs more from us rebels and less from the Anglo- Controllers !

Oh well. Their fall is inevitable anyhow, just like all Empires. Their gas tank is running on empty ! Literally !

( Even Saint Joan of Arc USED FORCE in dealing with the English. )

Very soon now, the world situation shall be taken right out of old Bush's hands- his plans are about to become entirely IRRELEVANT !

Keep up the work.

Kevin Puppos
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PAINT- BALL SURVEILL. CAMERAS !

by Kevin Puppos Sunday, Nov. 14, 2004 at 10:04 AM

Hey Comrades !

We have POWER to paint- ball surveillance cameras !

They shoot FAR, hit HARD- splat !
The smoke and mirrors have ONLY JUST BEGUN !

Time has come to ORGANIZE RESISTANCE IN THE STREETS !

Paint- ball TANK WINDSHIELDS !

WE WIN !

Kevin Puppos, Toledo, OH
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America's Anglo Controllers?

by John Kerry-Kohn Sunday, Nov. 14, 2004 at 10:14 AM

Someone recently mentioning ridding America of its "Anglo-Controllers"

We have to go further than that my friend
+++++++
It is argued: "Israel is the
keystone to understanding
the impetus which lies behind
world terrorism."

Consider:

1. Israel is no stranger to
terrorism. Israel's arguably
successful policy against
terrorism starts by carrying a
very big stick, which not only
is no stranger to mass
imprisonment, curfews,
constant document
checking, bulldozings and
the erection of high walls
which prevent movements of
peoples, it also calls for a
frequent show of almost all
levels of Israel's powerful
military prowess - directed at
any who are involved in or
suspected of being sympathic
with terrorists.

2. American tactics and strategy in urban warfare in Iraq
are said to be based upon the Israel model.

3. American involvement in
Iraq has not brought about
any criticism from Israel.

4. Not a few observers firmly
believe that the 9/11 terrorist
attack upon America was
rooted in a broadscale hatred
of Israel - in particular - of
Zionism policies.

5. In the tragic days
immediately following 9/11,
Israel called for America to
focus it's sights upon Iraq.
Meanwhile, the American
president had other sights in
mind; namely Afghanistan.
Who knows if we would have
the debacle today in Iraq, if
Bush listened to Israel then?

6. Barring a few dissident
American politicians - such
as Pat Buchanan and Ralph
Nader who were particularly
critical of Israel and the
American Jewish Lobby
during this hectic presidential
election year - both major
American political parties
stand firmly behind support
of Israel: from continuance of
record-high levels of
military materiel support,
to additional $Billions per year
in financial support.

7. Some critics of Israel go so
far as to suggest that the
American "raison de guerre"
in Iraq - the so-called
Weapons of Mass Destruction
- were an Israeli-centric, and
further, an Israeli "suggested"
notion, which, included items
e.g. "rockets whose range
was 90 km or more", in other
words, rockets capable of
reaching Israel.

8. A controversial survey of
EU nations, conducted in Oct,
2003, by Taylor Nelson
Sofres/EOS Gallup of Europe,
consisted of 15 questions
regarding "the reconstruction
of Iraq, the conflict in the
Middle East and World peace"
The poll found 59 percent of
Europeans believe Israel
represents the biggest
obstacle to MidEast and
World Peace.
____________________

While few deny the idea that
Israel has been encouraged
by American deconstuction of
it's close & dangerous enemy,
Iraq, others are alarmed at
the growing charges that
Zionism's policy is exclusive
to Jews!

An informal poll taken among
some corporate officers in NY
immediately after the attacks
on the WTC, found a startling
agreement in the rumor that
President Bush could have
instantly stopped terrorism
around the world by invoking
two words: "Dump Israel!"
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Balance and Perspective

by Dartagnion Sunday, Nov. 14, 2004 at 12:58 PM

by a rational person Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 12:58 AM

....I can't believe how stupid you folks are. These 'tanks' weren't 'deployed' to this location, they were trying to get to another destination. Honestly, the folks on this site are dumber than a box of rocks. Are you all that desperate for your little negative fantasies? Whatever you do, don't stop. It's too much fun to watch how retarded you all are.
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Tanks in Support?

by Rob Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 2:29 AM
robkpegg@yahoo.com

Strange indeed. i would not have believed it if I had not seen the video. I get the impression that some think the tanks were there to intimidate - but could it be that they were there in support of the protest? Did anyone standing near the tanks talk to any of the military personnel in the tanks and if so, what was said?
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lost? Come on?

by rob Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 2:44 AM

'You' were lost? So you stopped in front of the protest to ask directions? Dont reply with some crap about protestors blocking 'your' way -- 'you' could have inched your way out of the situation without ever stopping. Instead 'you' chose to remain at a stand still until one or two minutes after the police had cleared the street. The odds that you just happened along, lost on your way to a parade and then stopped at the location you did for such a long time -- are about ZERO.
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Hazzard

by Aaron Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 7:27 AM

The next american terror attack will no doubt take place in LA. Mark my words and remember where you saw this when it inevidably happens. It will be funny to hear what the reasons, culprits and circumstances of the attack will be, the spin will be gastly no doubt.
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Discuss At Military Forum

by Al Fallujahid Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 11:42 AM

http://www.militaryphotos.net/
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WHOS THE "REAL" IDIOT HERE???

by Doodallbug Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 2:18 PM
Doodallbug@comcast.net 503-887-8034 Washington

The "Real Idiots" are anybody who actually still believes that america is still a "Democratic" nation...I mean talk about "Stupid"!!! Have you bothered to notice that we have a president occupying the whitehouse that "Lost the election" to Kerry! Question is..are you "Smart enough to go and find out HOW he did it??? Its all over the internet "Moron"!!! Don't believe "Mainstream press" anymore!...They have become nothing less than "Pathological Liars"!!!The whole batch of them! Don't find out the hard way next year when america will be attacked again by the same CIA "Black-Opps" people responsible for what happened on September 11th 2001!!! Go and read a book called "Crossing the Rubicon" by Mike Ruppert available at http://www.copvcia.com It will make you feel really "Foolish" not to mention SHOCKED!!! Believe me YOU WILL BE SHOCKED!! I WAS!!!
Get smart folks before its to late!...PLEASE!!!!
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Oh Please! TFHA!

by Stentor Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 4:37 PM
stentor7@comcast.net

Tinfoil hat alert! Cut the conspiracy crap, it makes you look bad, and a little loony. From what I can see, the anti-war demonstrators got in front of the APCs, which were probably looking for the National Guard Armory, and then they wouldn't get out of the way so that they could pass. Hence the appearance of the Westwood police on bicycles. There are identifiable incidents of incorrect vote counts, and overcounts, but nothing adding up to the 3.6M that Bush got over Kerry. And before you even accuse me of being a Republican, I'm a Democrat, I don't believe in taking shit from the Republican Administration, I'd really like to see Tom Delay go to jail, and I voted for Kerry, because I didn't want to see the Chimp get four more years, but please, next you'll be telling us about the black helicopters, just like those John Birchers we used to have to listen to back in the 80s.

But I'm also a former Marine myself, and I have to say, I'd be pissed off at whoever stepped in front of a vehicle I was driving, stopping me from dropping it off, and delaying me getting off work. Do you understand why they'd be just a little pissed off at you? If you don't, then I'll spell it out for you, being in the military is a thankless job sometimes, and guys like that don't need any of what I saw on that video from the demonstrators, which was close to being really disresepectful.

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good point

by Sheepdog Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 4:42 PM

'the times, they are a-changin'
the slap of debt accumulation and infrastructure meltdown as food and fuel prices rise while money becomes worthless....
a community garden and well project might be useful. Wind power and water. That's the ticket. Yeah..
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REGIME

by LUCA HC Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 5:12 PM
Straightoppositionpehc@freeweb.org

i'm Italian , as i look to United states now , it's like i'm looking trough a mirror which reflects the future of my country .
Bush and it's foot licker Silvio Berlusconi are uniformating the masses , destroying the oppositions , lefting us only misery . i would like that films like Farenheit 9/11 , Boowling for Columbine ect. they were used in schools to educate the next generations , to create an historical memory .Our generation is fucked by the habits , and the memory has been lost , so we must restart from young boys and girls , cuz they will " live "in a real state of control , the fact that i can write this it probably means that some hope is permitted .thanks
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Falluja Video

by John Kerry-Kohn Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 5:58 PM
http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/falluja.asf http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/falluja.asf

http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/falluja.asf
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It's the worst kind of obsenity

by Sheepdog Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 6:35 PM

It's armor on our streets. No mussel cover on the big gun, pointing foward. Don't do it again.
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DAVE

by G.O.D Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 7:00 PM

dave dave dave. how do i know that they were there on accident and it was only to drop off their vehicles at the national guard center? why else would they drive 90 miles up north to mess around with a bunch of idiots??? plus i know, im in the damn video, i was walking by!!!!! they don't have tracks they have 8 wheels. you saying that its a tank cause it has armor is like saying a motorcycle is a car because it has wheels, so if you put armor on a hummer is it a tank too you idiot!!! go talk to your christian god and ask him to educate you dave, you ignorant fool.
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Chill, dude

by ProfShade Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 9:15 PM

Off your meds again? Whew. Haven't seen this much raving, psycho paranoia since a buddy of mine did 6 tabs of STP ....
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oh boy

by a marine Tuesday, Nov. 16, 2004 at 12:13 PM

Oh my god, conspiracy theorists UNITE!!! you are so good at pitting everyone against you, its all about "us vs them" isn't it. Those were MARINE RESERVES going to a VETERANS DAY EVENT!!!! They are from Camp Pen and don't know the area. You seriously cannot beleive that they could be lost? Yes, it is convenient that they stopped at an anti war rally, but could it be that maybe they did cuz they thought it'd be fun. The protesters were trying to draw peoples attention, apparently they did.

This is really silly.
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two days early

by Oakleaf Mold Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 10:34 PM
oakleafmold@hotmail.com

With all due respect, wasn't Veteran's Day on the 11th? The incident in question occurred on the 9th.
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Tanks at LA Rally-Westwood

by antonio70802 Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 11:44 PM
ajf2525@lycos.com Baton Rouge, LA

The article about the tanks was published in the LA Times, November 12, 2004 (Friday), Home Edition, SECTION: CALIFORNIA; Metro; Metro Desk; Part B; Pg. 3, LENGTH: 357 words. The headline read Military's Presence at Antiwar Rally Is Called a Coincidence. Looking at the video, I would say it may have been a coincidence, but once the tanks got there, the military wanted to make a statement. The tanks sat there for what looks like a full five minutes. Cowboy intimidation, perhaps? As for the people who keep saying Dems like being beat up, sounds like you all have a bit of the abuser sydrome. Seek some help, eh? But I'll tell you all what the Dems are: frustrated, angry, embarrassed by Bush et al. This Dem. doesn't intend to stop being any of these until Bush et al is gone BTW, so to you Pubs who are hoping to trick the country into a "sane dialogue" (easy to ask for once you have your way, don't you think), you'd better be ready for a fight instead. Because that's what you've finally pushed us to.
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Mr

by Peter Schroth Tuesday, Nov. 16, 2004 at 12:45 AM

doesn't any one else think it is odd at the great number of comments from people who think this a non-issue. what the hell are they doing on this website. who's signing their paycheck? dubya?
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Tanks...

by Nathan Tuesday, Nov. 16, 2004 at 12:57 AM

I heard that the tanks were practicing a parade route for the veterans day parade that was to take place the following day and the protesters just happened to be on the same route... I don't think we're at the point yet where they would send tanks out to meet protesters on purpose but it's probably not too far off.
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Tanks... Hmmmm

by Mike Wednesday, Nov. 17, 2004 at 4:40 PM
ekimshaf@hotmail.com

Being a Democrat who voted for Kerry in one of the few Blue states on the map ( I love Michigan ) who opposes the war in Iraq as much as anyone who's actually paid attention to the debacle, it seems to me that the tanks were just trying to make a right turn. Seems to me that the only offense they made was holding up traffic in the right turn lane. Way to make a big deal out of nothing.
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Existential Braindead America

by rusl Wednesday, Nov. 17, 2004 at 5:24 PM

Existential Braindea...
track-repair-altairvoyager-aka-condeleezza-rice.jpg, image/jpeg, 150x113

Wow, the internet is so skeptical. That is not a tank, it is a HALO2 video game conspiracy photo.

The Australian was right, you americans have mostly rolled over already. Why would anyone doubt the tanks? Because you wouldn't really need them in america, the land of the 'freedom' and 'liberty' and 'gun-toting' maniacs. Maniacs that can't see beyoind their own eyes.

[...Sorry for that outburst, not very constructive.]

In SUMMARY:

It is likely that these two tanks were there 'accidentally' for a 'veterans day' event. Some in the anti-war protest reacted with hostility, some with putting themselves in the path to disable the tanks, some with obsequeous reconciliation.

The event has had no media coverage beyond this website and links to here.

The debate on the comment thread revolves around a few issues.

Military jargon folk showing off their specialised knowledge of murdur machines "this is not a tank, this is an ABC XYZ and the gun is this big not that big" You amerricans are sure scary, I don't want to know so much about killing machines: I am neither homicidal nor suicidal. I can't imagine why else you would wnt to be anexpert of such disspiriting nonsense.

Trolls and those caught up by them: "this is not air I am breathing, I breath water and you can't prove me wrong because my conputer has no breathing interface"

A lot of sensible sad comments about how discouraging the election and the war and the tanks at anti war protests are.

Some sensibly angry folk who don't want to take it lying down but offer paranoid solutions like outmeal gasoline anti-tank weapons and psy-ops conspiracy

This rather shallow Peace Movement discussion instigated by 'Rev' who talks about the philosophical effectiveness of hostility versus compassion.

This last Peace Movement discussion is the most important and relevant response. I certainly agree with my ideals that compassion is the best way and cooperation is better than fighting.

Funny however, that such ideals can be perverted by narrow thinking and pacifist rhetoric.

I suppose it is obvious that the soldiers are not really the type to examplify those morals of problem solving by cooperation. It is indeed noble that one would try to compassionately convince with rational arguement even a soldier sworn to obey orders and kill those defined from above as 'the enemy'

But such idealism isn't always practical. Such idealism can be poisonous when to uphold those values requires blindness to other parts of reality.

Such as the quote from the real or imaginary soldier exemplifying the logic behind all wars:
"I think it is amazing how so many people
protest us for doing our jobs."

Think harder soldier, maybe 'doing your job' isn't really an acceptable response to the question: What is my role in this life?

But of course soldiers aren't trained to think harder. They are trained very religiously to not question [the root of thinking] and to obey.

Do you know about soldiers in wars killed by their own army? This happens all the time. The reasoning is sick if you believe the propaganda that it is 'us against them' and 'we are all in it together'. The kind of thing that is always said in war. However, the reality is that the top down control of the army will always supercede such solidarity - because that is what the army is built for: killing people. If you ask questions first, then you might not pull the trigger. Then our whole heirarchical society might come crumbling down. Traitors are more dangerous than the enemy really because a traitor can redefine the existance of the enemy - very powerful - imagine being able to have no more enemies just by using words rather than having to use all those guns and bombs to obliterate them...

"Just doing my job" is what all the concentration camp guards would say. "Just doing my job" is the mantra of the oppressor. Why? Because they fundamentally believe in the sanctity of that heirarchical system. The God or the King at the top must know better than I what to do - how else did he [mostly a he] get to the top? I am therfore obligated to obey. I am trapped under the minion above me, my only power is to lord it over those underfoot - all the way the top to the bottom. A well run army works like that: obediant, cold, precise, dumb as a board.

Of course not everything works so perfectly as the theory - thank god - and there is room for compassion when talking to soldiers.

But that anger against the soldiers is certainly not misplaced and you can get all your gods and policement to say it is but it will still not be so.

The soldier is responsible for being a soldier.

Yes, I believe in personal responsibility. That may sound harsh. But that compassion to the soldier is going to be wasted if he don't realise that it is not OK to pass the buck. It's like an alcoholic, he won't be helped by you until he decides he wants to change. Until then, you can't just rust him with the booze because he says 'I'm doing my job, I have no choice, I was born to this and am totally helpless.'

Yes, some soldiers need help getting out of that fascist structure of theirs. Others need to have their guns taken away and have women yell at them and have people step in front of their tanks....
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geriatriclove

by ea Thursday, Nov. 18, 2004 at 12:09 AM

After reading your post, I have only one question...Are you from planet Earth????
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To Rus

by ea Thursday, Nov. 18, 2004 at 12:15 AM

Are you from planet Earth???
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You mean Kent State

by Dale Thursday, Nov. 18, 2004 at 11:40 AM

I think you mean Kent State not Ohio State. Kent is where Nixon called out the National Guard and four people lost their lives. Ohio State is where Maurice Clarett called out Coach Tressel and the football team lost their respect. Two seperate things.
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Rus has a point!

by no gods no masters Thursday, Nov. 18, 2004 at 11:38 PM

well probably the only thing that made scrolling down this page worthwhile was Rus's post!

come on so what if it was coincidence or not....there are plenty of other things to be pissed about. lives have been taken and books have been written....regardless of this event (if it was one)...the corruption and elitest views of this whole society only encourage me to dissent and to invoke all the civil disobedience i can possibly ensue upon this abstraction that we claim as our own....as we chant on the soldiers as they kill all those innocent families...as the elite ruin lives here...
corporations running down small business in my hometown and i read its not just here...everywhere these international fatcats overwhelm the votes with their lobbying tactics their politcal action committees and their "wine and dine"s with popular political officials. fuck their heirachy...fuck their lack of social responsibility in the name of profiteering.

the system no longer is capable of reform....we need to bring down the power of those who lie to us and steal the so called freedom and liberty we citizens of amerika are supposed to have.

NO GODS, NO MASTERS.
no one has the right to tell me what is best in my life and the best decisions are for me......whereever there is government there is oppression.
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Steve, I remember

by Ragleredwood Friday, Nov. 19, 2004 at 4:27 AM
Ragleredwood@aol.com

Steve, as I have been reading, all I am thinking about is Ohio State. Scrolling down and down wondering if I've gone through the looking glass and no one on this side remembers.....
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pcolor@att.net

by Patty Friday, Nov. 19, 2004 at 7:27 AM

Why are there tanks on our streets for any reason? In this time of intense emotions we can only assume there is an underlying message with their presence at an anti-war rally. To the Marine I respect your dedication, please just approach your commitment with open eyes.
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SgtMaj USMC (Ret'd)

by Robert N. Pemberton Saturday, Nov. 20, 2004 at 8:58 AM
b.pemby48@verizon.net (516) 759-5101 325 Glen Cove Avenue

It is likely the so called tanks, probably light armored vehicles (non-tracked) were at the site of the demonstration purely by coincidence in that the vehicles were apparently USMC owned and operated.
I believe it is more than likely, because of the date and the location (November 9th near the Federal Building) that their presence was there as part of the USMC Birthday Celebration the next day (November 10th) to be part of a display in connection USMC Recruiting, or, it was there in connection with Veteran's Day (November 11th). I don't believe the vehicle(s) was (were) there for reasons associated with controling the crowd.

Under the terms of Posse Comitatus, military vehicles and/or personnel are prohibited from enforcing civil law unless so directed by the President of the United States, and only then when civil authorities have lost control. In such a case, military forces are the last ones in and the first ones out once civil law has been restored.

The LAPD is not in need of military assistance to handle routine anti-war demonstrations. They have both the personnel and the equipment to maintain law and order during such demonstrations without military equipment or personnel. It is a farce to believe otherwise.

It is more than likely, from my perspective and experience that the crowd chnose to confront the vehicles rather than the reverse.

Vehicles of this nature are not considered a crowd control piece of equipment without supporting infantry due to their vulnerbility of attacks from hand carried / hand delivered incendiary or explosive devices.

It is my opinion the facts have been distorted in this instance to support a cause. It's a free country, but I will end by saying this "You can BS some of your followers, but you cannot BS the law enforcement and military players who know the rules and have played the game"

ROBERT N. PEMBERTON, SR.
MA, MS and ABA Certified Paralegal
Sergeant Major of Marines (Retired)
Nassau County, NY Police Department (Retired)
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I was there and you werent

by deadrednecks Sunday, Nov. 28, 2004 at 1:34 AM

It is unbelievable how many ignorant rednecks are on here saying "I was there!" or " I'm the one who was in the turret!". You people are pathetic hicks who need to go to Iraq to go get you some terrorists. I hope they frag your asses and you come home with no legs.
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These guys were not lost

by deadrednecks Sunday, Nov. 28, 2004 at 1:53 AM

Look, you guys can't be that ignorant. A bunch of you are convinced that these guys were "lost "and they were "on their way to a parade"? Or that "they came from Pendleton?". Give me a break! Pendleton is 80 miles to the south. These guys were there for the protest. This is the way that the BUsh administration does things now. Are you that blind? The whole world is having major protests about us being at war, yet we Americans can only muster up these small protests of a few hundred people? Why? because they've enacted this aggressive intimadation tactic against any and all protests. Look what they did to the thousands who protested in New York at the RNC convention. Or the inauguration even. Google "RNC arrests" you stupid rednecks. Do you really think a small independant free press would go to the effort of getting a bunch of jock actors to act like cops and buy a couple of LAV's just to post a mpeg on this small website? Get a clue. No wonder the rest of the world thinks we're dumb, we've got a ton of idiots in this country. You people are pathetic who write all this nonsense,. Even with a video clip and you claim they're going to a parade. I'm sure you're the same people that see Iraqi 2 year olds with burns all over, missing legs and arms and claim that they're fake photos!
I live in L.A. and I can tell you this isn't the first time these armored vehicles have been sent to the Federal Building for protests. This Fed Bldg houses the FBI, CIA, NSC, and probably Homeland Security now as well. I lived in West LA and have seen these vehicles before. You guys fail to realize they keep these vehicles all over the city. That includes the police depts and the sheriffs as well as the national guard.Idiots.
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BIG BROTHER

by BABY KILLER Wednesday, Dec. 01, 2004 at 1:37 PM

I was driving the LAV and we where there to intimidate the protestors. I can't hold it in anymore, Bush sent the order down the pipe from D.C. and told our commanders about a protest in L.A. and we had to go there. I am sorry!!! God Bless California
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INANE.

by macbaen Friday, Dec. 03, 2004 at 7:24 PM

absolutely ridiculous to deploy these machines in the city. only time before these "lost" soldiers go apeshit on the protesters...
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FootSoldier

by andrewjohn Monday, Dec. 13, 2004 at 6:44 PM

"lost soldiers" go apesh*t on the protestors...? Geez what a reactionary "moore-on". I am sure you would love the photo opportunity if they did. Unfortunately for you and those of your ignorant, bleating ilk, most of our men and women of the US Armed forces have several qualities that you lack - among them: character, restraint, self discipline, a sense of reality and proportion, honor and integrity, self-sacrifice...I warmly encourage you to grow up, move out of your parents' basements, and get real jobs that do not involve whining, nor a government paycheck (unless it is for military duty).
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blatant honesty

by an LAV crewman Tuesday, Dec. 14, 2004 at 9:50 AM

heres the deal folks. i am a marine, an Lav crewman in fact. i only know about this little forum because it was emailed to me for the entertainment value. you see, our boys WERE on their way to stage the vehicles for the parade. however, after a long drive up from camp pen, who could resist a little fun at the expense of screaming idiots? c'mon! they were standing on a street corner chanting and beating a drum! i can almost hear the voice over the intercom in my head "hey lets go around the block again then pull over and ask directions and see what they say." so here is the naked truth: did they go there to fuck with you? no. did they decide to fuck with you for fun? yes, yes they did. does the fun continue as we email each other this site? it sure does.
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another LAV crewman

by Patrick McCullough Tuesday, Dec. 14, 2004 at 11:42 AM

Did it occur to you idiots that they might have been there for a reason not having anything to do with you guys? Like celebrating the brave men and women who fought and died for their right to protest? You morons cannot fathom the amount of restraint it took for those Marines not to climb down off of those vehicles and smack you down like the whiny bitches you are.

-Mack
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fuck protesters

by another marine Monday, Dec. 13, 2004 at 8:41 PM
neto224ss@aol.com

Freedome has a taste that only those who fought for it will truly know it. Just ask the marines who you encountered that day. the marines were on their way to be apart of the veterans day parade. As for the protesters, please step in front of my vehicle next time. Fucken hippies go to Canada.
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come on people...

by Sheepdog Monday, Dec. 13, 2004 at 10:29 PM

Keep the heavy stuff off our streets and everything will be cool.
No one wants to have Americans spilling blood on the streets. That would really bring it home.
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thats right, our streets, our towns

by an LAV crewman Tuesday, Dec. 14, 2004 at 9:24 AM

they were on their way to a PARADE. a parade held in OUR honor people. a parade where children smile and wave at us and want to be near us. just like the kids in iraq did. the majority of us were born and raised in LA/OC/SD. most of us have our degrees or are working on them in LA/OC/SD. most of us live and work in LA/OC/SD. we are cops, high school teachers, college students, professionals, chances are we live in the same neihborhood, eat at the same restaraunts, you might serve me coffee on my way to the office every morning. (and i appreciate it) the long and the short of it is, these are our streets if they are anybody's. we care about our hometowns and believe they are worth fighting for. so when we get invited to bring our vehicles home for a parade in our honor we'll be goddamned if we are going to take that kind of disrespect from a rabble of jackholes making asses of themselves on a street corner. who do you think you are going to convince that way? tell me that when you see a guy with a cross, a bible, and a bullhorn you don't shake your head in disgust. especially if your are a christian. those guys fuck it up for normal christians, you guys fuck it up for people who are against war and want a say. stop making asses of yourselves. hold a meeting, enjoy your free speech, glad we could protect that for you. stay out of the road.
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glad we could protect that for you.

by Not your streets Tuesday, Dec. 14, 2004 at 9:39 AM

Not if you're under arms in time of peace. That's why they have federal military reservations. Don't show up in armor, with an un covered gun, it pisses the people off.
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WOW

by an LAV crewman Tuesday, Dec. 14, 2004 at 9:51 AM

i don't think you even read my whole statement. go back, try it again slowly. now think. now comment.
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up yours

by Not your streets Tuesday, Dec. 14, 2004 at 9:54 AM

"we'll be goddamned if we are going to take that kind of disrespect from a rabble of jackholes making asses of themselves on a street corner"
Kiss my ass.
Now read that and comment.
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pick a spot, you're all ass

by an LAV crewman Tuesday, Dec. 14, 2004 at 9:57 AM

there's yer comment champ
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lets cut the shit talkin' now

by an LAV crewman Tuesday, Dec. 14, 2004 at 10:06 AM

this isn't a pissing contest, and of course, everyone is a tough guy in front of a computer. some of us get to be tough all the time but that is besides the point. chill out.
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better than half-assed

by Not your streets Tuesday, Dec. 14, 2004 at 10:08 AM

Don't get too big for your BDUs. I've noticed that tankers have a particular mindset inside that very vulnerable shell. All they are aware of is the fire power they control. Oh well.
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riiiight

by an LAV crewman Tuesday, Dec. 14, 2004 at 10:18 AM

what a tool
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OneEyedEyed

by KPC Thursday, Dec. 16, 2004 at 9:29 AM

"...a parade where children smile and wave at us and want to be near us."

....now that's just creepy....

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what that?

by an LAV crewman Saturday, Dec. 18, 2004 at 8:13 PM

now what is that about?

i, a marine, make a comment that shows compassion towards children, and this guy wants to make me seem like a pervert because he disagrees with what he assumes are my politics.

whats your problem there, damaged goods?
was daddy away too much?
did mommy lock you in a closet?

are you, sir, a danger to children?

or did you just get real ballsy all of a sudden, when you realized that you wouldn't have to back it up?
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what['s] that

by ? Saturday, Dec. 18, 2004 at 8:37 PM

Somebody who is a tuffboy. Golly.
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Datilis

by Datilis Sunday, Dec. 19, 2004 at 11:10 AM

You all need to grow up.

We as a nation have more freedoms than any other in the world. In order for people in Japan for instance to protest anything they have to get permission from their government and schedule the times dates and location or they will all be arrested.

We are the least militant country in the world. At least of those countries that have a military. We have a law called the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 that was enacted after the Civil War that states that American service members under federal control (i.e. Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines and Reserve Components) cannot be used to enforce law or assist in the enforcement of law outside a federal installation or property. So the idea that those Marines where there to quell your little protest is absurd not to mention ILLEGAL. Now this law does not cover forces like the National Guard that are both federally controlled and state controlled. I doubt your governor called in the National Guard.

Here is a small bit of background info on me.

I have been a Military Police officer in the U.S. Army for over 8 years so I have practical knowledge on the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, crowd control and riot control and those strikers where not supposed to be there. I have served in eastern Europe the middle east and asia.

I am asked by many people that I meet “Why are you in the military? I don’t believe in the military.”

I give them two answers “I serve so you don’t have too, and I defend your right to protest me.”

If young people like me didn’t step up to defend our great nation then there would be one of two things happen. One people would be forced into service against their will a.k.a a draft. Or two we would be some other nation under some other countries rule and have no rights of our own.

I choose freedom for me, my family, and yours now and in the future.

So in closing protest the war protest me and I will stand to defend your right to do so and enable others in this world to have the same rights and freedoms you take for granted.
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we need no military

by Sheepdog Sunday, Dec. 19, 2004 at 11:43 AM

Who would invade a country of gun ownwers?
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We did....

by Datilis Monday, Dec. 20, 2004 at 10:07 PM

We did, we invaded a country of gun toting extremist named the Taliban when we invaded Afghanistan. There where bands of AK and RPG wielding idiots walking the streets. Fat load of good those weapons did them against F-15 Eagles and M1 Abrams. We need a military to defend our country from any aggressor. Sure you can go to your local gun store and by a rifle, pistol or shotgun but you can’t go buy a tank or strike fighter. Thank God.

Could you imagine being able to go buy a stinger missile at your local gun store. Thousands would be killed taking off from our airports alone. There would be no safety to fly; every extremist with a grudge would be able to take out Americans in the hundreds using our very freedoms against us.

We need a military if for nothing else but to be able to control those weapons needed to defend us.
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While I agree that we need a military...

by Flick Tuesday, Dec. 21, 2004 at 7:30 AM

the problem with having one is that it misused and taken advantage of by inauspicious characters and shady politicians. They send our troops off to fight nonsensical wars in deserts and jungles under the proclamations of "freedom" and that these impoverished countries hate ours. Our troops should be at home defending our borders, not traipsing through the third world conquering the wastelands.
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Who needs the military.

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Dec. 21, 2004 at 9:22 AM

Sure we invaded a country of 6 million and you better see how well that's going with a growing attrition and resistance. They wouldn't have much of a problem if Saddam hadn't allowed the citizens to have AK 47 with full auto. Think of the logistics of invading a country of 280 million who own fire arms. The only ones who need the military are the weapons contractors and the wall street parasites who use the men and women of our land to extract resources from unwilling populations.
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The military sure came in handy ...

by Flick Tuesday, Dec. 21, 2004 at 2:18 PM

around circa 1941. All of Europe and most of Russia would probably be sprucking da Deutch today if it weren't for the military .

The question is not whether we need a military. It's a given that we do.

The question is how we keep it from being abused by inauspicious politicians.
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Baa Baa dumb sheep on November 10

by hmm Tuesday, Dec. 21, 2004 at 11:12 PM

Looks like a lot of education was lost on little insignificant baa baa dumb sheep from November 10.
Okay......tanks alright? GOOD! Because in most paranoid, fascist police states, you'll be a goner simply because you draw too much attention to yourself, and THAT is a direct threat to ANY police state. God Bless America!!!!!!!!!!
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merry flippin' christmas

by an LAV crewman Saturday, Dec. 25, 2004 at 5:21 PM

merry christmas all you crazy left-wing anarchists! see you next year!
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dissent in police states

by more rational Sunday, Dec. 26, 2004 at 4:06 AM

The amount of dissent in more repressive countries is GREATER than in America. Think about it.

In Mexico, the cops routinely beat the shit out of people, but they come out by the hundreds of thousands to protest. In Indonesia, there's a fascist police state that's oppressing people, but the oppressed take up arms and demonstrate.

These police-heavy states are characterized by internal dissent, typically due to racist or religious discrimination. People really have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by exercising some "freedom of speech" they don't even have.

There was dissent in Iraq under Saddam. So, no wonder they are shooting back. They're used to fighting against awesome military power.

Americans are, globally speaking, a bunch of complacent sheep. We're fat and happy, and very selfish. The few who dare to suggest that we have a human responsibility to those who make our goodies and grow our food, by paying them decently, and making their work as safe as possible, are derided as hopelessly passe, and killjoys. What they say is, "gimme money, burgers, discount appliances and premium porn... and shut the fuck up you nanny state biotch."

Well, I hope y'all greedy imperialists get your asses kicked. Freedom isn't free, if it's just freedom to shop and waste. It's not free if it comes at someone else's un-freedom and misery.
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From the outside looking in......

by CrazyCanuck Saturday, Jan. 01, 2005 at 10:02 AM

You yanks are amazing......a couple of your own military vehicles get lost in one of the largest cities in America..........and they are lucky to get out of it without having to fight their way free....!

All during a "supposed" peace rally.

LOL...............Only in the US.....!
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Geez

by Disgruntled one Friday, Jan. 21, 2005 at 4:51 PM

The funny thing here, is that these people have nothing better to do than stop traffic. Get out of the street or I'll run you over... Damn liberals!!!
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Wow

by Matt Saturday, Jan. 22, 2005 at 7:18 AM

Wow, just when you think people couldnt get any stupider, they do. Im not a big fan of the war, but these people act like they dont care one penny about the troops. There chanting, "bring the troops home now" while there are some very respectably Marines right in front of them, while some of the protesters flick off and even cuss at them.
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Coup 2K

by Elizabeth Friday, Mar. 04, 2005 at 1:49 AM

Ruth said, "I never voted for the dictator , don't blame us , we have no idea who voted for him , well ,yes we do , the election was a fraud and the final part of the cuop has taken place. Stay in there if they want a battle let it begin here."

DITTO, DITTO, DITTO!!! I totally agree. I followed the events before and after the election, did the research, and it was outright VOTER FRAUD! Coup 2K! Twice!!!

Where are the protests in Southern California? I'm there!
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Love and wit will crush this shit

by Smaze Sunday, Mar. 13, 2005 at 12:37 AM

COINTELPRO is back and confusing the waters once again.. I guess thats what happens when the natural pulse is to be free. The 3 year old playground bully has hired some witty heads...but thier wit cannot forsee the unforseen...sorry you lose.
There is tons of intentional disinformation on this page...some under the disguise of neo-liberalism..some as blatent nationalist rhetoric...
Can we stop being led like sheep now??? I feel sorry for all of us. We all have the same potential to be truely free outside of limitting human construct. Yet we keep getting sucked into these traps that are stopping us from forward motion. It is an ancient tactic..keep us responding to futile stimuli and we are not not changing the world.
Even the NSA CIA FBI Global Social Engineers are human undernieth all of thier brainwashed trained reasoning.. Wake them up and then the revolution is on!!!
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Tanks a lot

by Tanks Wednesday, Mar. 16, 2005 at 10:41 PM

Those vechicles were not tanks......look up what actual tanks...which weighs about 60 tons. They were personnel carriers.
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I saw the vid where are the tanks?

by M1A1Tanker Wednesday, Apr. 06, 2005 at 3:20 AM
scout19k@hotmail.com

You anti-war people are so full of yourselves. Tank. Thats not a tank you blundering fools. Its an LAV-25. A tank has treads not wheels. So that makes it an armored car. Can you say A-R-M-O-R-E-D C-A-R? I knew you could!

I found it funny that one of your own started to call this a Police State in the video. You baffoons are comical. You cry and whine about how much you hate that the US went to Iraq and cleansed the country of its murdering dictator and his cronies then you cry and whine when an armored car on its way to a frakking parade passes by you. Then when it stops you start crying that this is a police state and that its unfair the Marines were sent to quell your little party. Now that I have said that....how do you think the Kurds felt when they demonstrated against Saddam and the REAL tanks pulled up and started to shoot and KILL people?

How do you think the Kurds felt when Attack helicopters attacked them in the open with 30mm cannons blazing away. How do you think the the Kurds felt when they were shelled with mustard, sarin, and VX gas? How do you think the Kurds felt when they were machine gunned by Iraqi troops?

You will never know how they feel!! EVER!! Because you were never there. You were on your safe little sidewalk with your big sign protesting President Bush for going over there and stopping the madness.

I little history lesson for you liberals.....Saddam came to office in 1979 what liberal President put him there? Thats right Jimmy Carter.....What president was in office when the entire muslim world was crapping on us and Iran took US citizens hostage? Jimmy Carter!

Everyone in that video cried because an armored car showed up......I found it funny it drove away after it police escoort showed up. I also found it funny that the police and not the Marines moved the crowd away from the armored cars. IN Iraq in the 80's everyone of you cowards would be dead after that armored car showed up. and the police would have been beating the living life out of the rest.

Isn't it funny? You kept your protest going. No one killed or imprisoned you. No one gased or machine gunned you. No one beheaded you. You are free. You weren't tortured or mamed.

Pathetic people.............Free pathetic people




A soldier
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I saw the vid where are the tanks?

by M1A1Tanker Wednesday, Apr. 06, 2005 at 3:21 AM
scout19k@hotmail.com

You anti-war people are so full of yourselves. Tank. Thats not a tank you blundering fools. Its an LAV-25. A tank has treads not wheels. So that makes it an armored car. Can you say A-R-M-O-R-E-D C-A-R? I knew you could!

I found it funny that one of your own started to call this a Police State in the video. You baffoons are comical. You cry and whine about how much you hate that the US went to Iraq and cleansed the country of its murdering dictator and his cronies then you cry and whine when an armored car on its way to a frakking parade passes by you. Then when it stops you start crying that this is a police state and that its unfair the Marines were sent to quell your little party. Now that I have said that....how do you think the Kurds felt when they demonstrated against Saddam and the REAL tanks pulled up and started to shoot and KILL people?

How do you think the Kurds felt when Attack helicopters attacked them in the open with 30mm cannons blazing away. How do you think the the Kurds felt when they were shelled with mustard, sarin, and VX gas? How do you think the Kurds felt when they were machine gunned by Iraqi troops?

You will never know how they feel!! EVER!! Because you were never there. You were on your safe little sidewalk with your big sign protesting President Bush for going over there and stopping the madness.

I little history lesson for you liberals.....Saddam came to office in 1979 what liberal President put him there? Thats right Jimmy Carter.....What president was in office when the entire muslim world was crapping on us and Iran took US citizens hostage? Jimmy Carter!

Everyone in that video cried because an armored car showed up......I found it funny it drove away after it police escoort showed up. I also found it funny that the police and not the Marines moved the crowd away from the armored cars. IN Iraq in the 80's everyone of you cowards would be dead after that armored car showed up. and the police would have been beating the living life out of the rest.

Isn't it funny? You kept your protest going. No one killed or imprisoned you. No one gased or machine gunned you. No one beheaded you. You are free. You weren't tortured or mamed.

Pathetic people.............Free pathetic people




A soldier
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Truth hurts don't it?

by M1A1Tanker Thursday, Apr. 07, 2005 at 7:12 AM

I'll tell you what. When I find atleast ONE person that has gotten rectal cancer from an M1 series tank I'll let you know. After the liberal anti-military establishment put this out many of us tankers went and got tested. 400 in my battalion alone....nothing. not a speck or a spot. Just goes to show you what the liberal media can do with one story. BTW, the one guy they did show was in fact in a tank battalion but he was a mechanic so I guess that blows the theory out the window.....

Your comment is typical of the "We support the soldier but hate the President and the war" crowd. And think, I'm not hunting you down to kill you for making that comment...Damn, I guess this police state thing just doesn't work here in the US.


But hey, GREAT come back!!


A Soldier, A Sailor, an Airman, A Marine, or A Coastie

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Mr

by Raymond Upton Thursday, Apr. 14, 2005 at 8:27 AM

So let me get this straight they think theyre some kind of heroes for standing in front of a tank that wasnt armed for close combat situations and they beleived that a tank would even bother running over them? JESUS CHRIST how dumb can you get??? I sure as hell wouldve enjoyed seeing it unload a shell on the protestors but thats just me. Nobody wants to walk home and hear a bunch of hippies shouting thinking theyre making a difference. one piece of advice, go home and shut up before i send in a strike squad
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guess you don't understand

by Citizen Thursday, Apr. 14, 2005 at 10:19 AM

The very idea of armor apparently ready for use as there were no gun covers, etc, is a third world act of intimidation. whether or not the intent was deliberate hostility or just a screw up in the chain, the citizendry should be justifyably outraged at the missuse of weapondry by an ever more arrogant military.
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the saga continues

by an LAV crewman Friday, Apr. 15, 2005 at 12:10 AM

awesome, i can ignore this forum for four months and when i come back same crazy shit talkin'!

and c'mon people read UP before you post! armored car?! fuck dude, if i can distinguish armor from different countrys the least you can do is recognize a marine LAV-25 when you see one. i bought the 1:32 scale model at target yesterday!

the boys are going to get a kick out of this!
what a bunch of pathetic losers!

rock on baby!
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armor plated brain

by Citizen Friday, Apr. 15, 2005 at 4:24 AM

So what, it's not a battle tank, a light tank or a golf cart.
Are you retarded?
You should read the posts yourself and close your pie hole.
They're our streets unless you are without your armor and weapons in a non agressive condision. Or do you think it's martial law already?
If you want to play tanker, there are military reservations for that.
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"Kent State" not "Ohio State"

by JDE Wednesday, Jun. 01, 2005 at 11:41 AM

You need to brush up on your history before you spout off at the lips.
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this war...and these actions have nothing to do with freedom

by opinionsunwelcome Saturday, Jun. 04, 2005 at 9:45 AM

You all blunder on and on and say nothing. I am surprised to see that while millions of people are actually FIGHTING for their rights...or at least publicly making them known, you are all sitting behind your computers "shouting" out in voices that NO ONE hears but yourself. You speak to hear yourself spoken to. Whether or not you are a protester or a supporter, I think you should stick your neck out on the line and get your ass out there to support your cause!
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That's not a tank

by Tanker J Friday, Jun. 10, 2005 at 9:47 AM

That's not a tank. It's a Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Big difference to anyone that knows anything about the military. Bradley's carry troops and are known as "tonka toys" to tankers.
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you idiot Tanker

by Citizen Friday, Jun. 10, 2005 at 10:30 AM

That's NOT a Bradley.
Ignorant dolt.
It's a LAV (Light Armored Vehicle) and it's enough of a tank to sport a 25MM chain gun. Some come with 130MM mortors. I have assembled these things, fool.
Get a real job in the real world where you have to be able to read.
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Laughs a Million

by M1A1Tanker Saturday, Jun. 11, 2005 at 5:34 AM
m1a1tanker@earthlink.net

I have found it funny that my correction of the hippie yuppy anti-America anti-war types has gained a big following. I will resond to those that are so bagged up in hippie worship they reak PEDA and GreenPeace memberships galore.

Mr. Citizen claims that there are military reservations for armor play. Yup, there are. He also states that we need to read what was said....same to you Mr. Citizen. The vehicles in question NOT BRADLEYS BUT LAV 25s were on their way to a parade setup point and were lost. A police vehicle arrived momentarily after their arrival at the corner and took them to the parade point a few blocks away. I will say it again, those men in those vehicle gave you the right to protest them. If you cannot believe that they were lost then that is on you. Mr. Citizen also goes on to say he "assembled these things fool" yet has no clue as to what they are. Mr. Citizen, read some books, We have no mortar carrying Bradleys in our inventory its called a "variant". BTW, its a 120mm mortar. To you that would be 4.2 inches. Also you call the LAV a tank.....A tank is a vehicle that was designed AFTER WW2 to take on other tanks. An LAV is an APC and the 25mm Hughes gun is not a tank busting cannon. It was designed to take out other APCs light vehicles trucks and small bunkers.

Then there is Mr. opinionsunwelcome who gives us his opinion. Unlike you Mr. opinionsunwelcome I have been there and have done that and have gotten the t-shirts the uniforms and retired...unlike you sitting behind your computer I tend to get out and blast anti-war types like I am doing here. I also box and ship stuff our troops need to them. How about you?

I am glad I live in this country with all of its baffoonary, its PEDA Greenpeace Amnesty International types. This is what makes America great. A place where people like me can spend 25yrs of their life defending asshats who spout anti-government rhetoric at the flip of a switch. Who spit on their soldiers in one generation and then turn and do it again on another.

One day though, it is not going to be the government that turns on you snotty asshat anti-everything types. Its going to be the people that spent their entire adulthood defend your right to do so. Your Vets are going to turn on you and not just bite that hand but shred your entire arm then rip it off and beat you to death with it.....


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oh look

by Citizen Saturday, Jun. 11, 2005 at 5:52 AM

Quibbeling about armor is your stock and trade.
"We have no mortar carrying Bradleys in our inventory its called a "variant". BTW, its a 120mm mortar"
Also contradicting yourself in the same sentennce.
'That's not a tank'
And it's not a Bradley. Who cares? It is military armor and it has no 'right' to be on the streets apparently ready for action as there was no gun cover.
It was a mistake, alright to get 'lost' and the Citizen has every right to be outraged.
Deal with it and don't screw up again.

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Luv It Or Leave It

by enova Wednesday, Jun. 29, 2005 at 5:57 PM

Red,

What part of freedom and diversity don't you understand? In a country diverse enough to have war mongers and total pacifists and the freedom that allows them all to voice their opinion; why would there be a need to move to Canada?

None. Unless one group chooses not only to disagree with another, verbally, but actually prevents dissent from being voiced at all.

Handing out invitations to Canada is great and all; but it sort of takes away your credibility when bitching about how you fought for the rights of others to disagree with you.

After-thought....

I really don't see your reasoning in asking someone that "doesn't like what the military does for this country" to leave.

Do any of the descriptions below describe you?....

A. When people question actions and their motives instead of sheepfully following orders; you get frustrated because you don't have the capacity to question what's being asked of you.

B. You really don't believe in fighting for "freedom"; you just believe in the job that's been handed to you.

C. You belive that your ability to serve without questioning, somehow, makes you more of a citizen than someone who hasn't served.

D. Hateing war really is a bad thing.

Now I invite you to enter the land of rational thought (contrary to popular belief; it still can be found in America). Ask yourself if the original Gulf War was fought for liberty. Did you liberate Kuwait from Sadam?
Yes you did. Did you bring Liberty? No, you didn't. You merely put an oppresive regime back in power. A regime that doesn't give women the right to vote or even resemble a republic or democracy. You helped out a Kingdom and you did nothing to defend the U.S. from anybody.

Did this new war in Iraq protect us from Iraq? No. We weren't being threatend by Iraq. Are we going to liberate the Iraqies and bring them freedom from oppression? I hope we do. Otherwise there will be absolutly nothing good to speak of when the dust settles.

An illegal war... yes it was illegal; because it was accepted by the people and started based on complete lies and/or complete ineptitude(you make the call).

An administation sent troops to battle without listening to advice from it's top generals that told them that there would need to be 300,000 to 400,000 troops on the ground to adequetly secure the peace. That advice wasn't taken because the administation knew that a troop mobilization of that size would surely make the newly minted psuedo-patriots wake from their fervor and actually ask if pre-emptive attacks on countries that have no sites on ours really is a good idea after-all.

So in closing, Red, I thank you for choosing to serve your country. I would just ask you to ask yourself; when the government wants to take away my liberties; whose side are you going to be on?

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LAV Gunner, Whah!!!!!!!!

by Ex Navy Sunday, Aug. 28, 2005 at 6:27 PM

Hey Gunner Boy, With all due respect, it sounds like you're a little too involved with this blog. Get over yourself already. What's more, if what you say is true, that you leathernecks are dumb enough to be driving around LA without a clue, or even a map, it's no wonder we are losing our asses over this fucked-up oil grab in Iraq. But we all know it was no coincidence that you showed up at the protest and parked there for 10 minutes. We're not as dumb as you are. If you're really not a covert operative, then wake the fuck up and get a clue....
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Well...

by Mark Sunday, Sep. 11, 2005 at 1:39 PM

Well CPL...
You're not out protesting our right to be tree hugging because you'd rather have a nice draft.

Ah, love and hate.

SEIG HEIL! eh?

Please soldiers, don't act like victims.
After all, you signed yourself up.
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Davey Dave

by Davey Dave Tuesday, Sep. 13, 2005 at 5:06 PM
lightropewalker@yahoo.com

Some day those tanks will be rusting into dust providing minerals for someone growing food or the grass on a small hillside. Maybe someone will use it as a big flower pot, as we live in a future where there is no war.
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Time to retire

by Sheepdog. Tuesday, Sep. 13, 2005 at 5:19 PM

From the military. I did it and so can you.
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Finally..

by Party Crasher Wednesday, Sep. 21, 2005 at 8:51 AM

Finally... a dose of sanity and insight from someone who knows. Thanks Marine!

Semper Fi!!!
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Sixes

by Paul Robertson Friday, Sep. 23, 2005 at 12:20 AM

Oh and Im a Tanker too, only from the other side of the world, and I stand corrected. Its not a LAV, but a Stryker

Either way, its not a tank. Get it right
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Response to David Munday-Not an American Vehicle

by A Canadian Sgt Monday, Nov. 07, 2005 at 6:20 PM

Just a correction for this man who suprisingly knows the Canadian verision of the LAV-25 . THe vehicle in the video is a marine LAV-25, the coyote vehicle is a Canadian version used in the recce role. Enough said.
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Not a Tank

by Falcon Saturday, Jan. 28, 2006 at 1:43 AM

Come on people, get it straight, a Stryker AVF is NOT a tank; it's an armored recon/assault vehicle. It’s not meant to deal with threats that a tank would.

As for why they were there, who knows, maybe they DID make a wrong turn, stranger things have happened. Do you really think your protest is SO important that the military would deploy armed units to it? If they were that worried, you'd have gotten a lot more than 2 recon vehicles. Give me a break.

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give it up

by Vet Friday, Apr. 14, 2006 at 3:38 PM

"dont have any big guns that could take out other tanks"
You and your Tiger would last about 2 seconds under the chain gun that piece of hardware sports.

You are ill informed. And ignorant.
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Another very good video

by luminousnerd Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 12:30 PM

There's another great armored tank video at Combat Films and Research. You should definitely check it out. http://www.combatfilms.com/cfrtv_archive_0004.asp

They do pretty awesome weekly episodes. http://www.cfr-tv.com
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Person

by Dylan Roberts Wednesday, Nov. 01, 2006 at 2:42 PM

I was impressed by the tanks. I want to be be a tank driver someday. My mom made me go with her to the Federal Building with her friends but I don't like going with her. I would rather be with my own friends.
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to johnk and editors

by reader Friday, Nov. 03, 2006 at 11:49 AM

Can we delete these adds which have mucked up this thread?
I don't want to waste a credit on deleting this shit.
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4 dead in ohio

by glenda allen Saturday, Nov. 18, 2006 at 2:12 PM
glendallen@comcast.net

Yes, thank you for mentioning Kent State. Dating myself, now an old Grandma, I still get tears in
my eyes remembering that day. You young people
need to wake up! It is getting worse.
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to: reader

by johnk Monday, Jan. 01, 2007 at 7:34 PM

You should just use up the points on deleting the spam. There's enough really infantile garbage to go around. More will always appear. The scoring system tends to keep all the regular button-pushers near the borderline anyway. Generally, the only time the community editors get surges of points is when the collective editors neglect to hide-or-okay the reported posts.
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4 Dead In Ohio

by Nate Sunday, May. 06, 2007 at 2:15 AM
Ohio

I too get a tear in my eyes, thinking about some idiot throwing a 4 pound rock at my head, when a person goes out in public and attacks another person he or she get what they deserve, Nate
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"Kent State" not "Ohio State"

by Nate Sunday, May. 06, 2007 at 2:31 AM
Ohio

OSU Sucks too!. The American Schools have turned out nothing but idiots since the Sixties. Nate
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People get lost even with GPS's

by KP Friday, Feb. 29, 2008 at 9:03 AM

People, please think. If the military was going to use Armoured vehicles to break up a demonstration a number of events must take place first. Where did the vehicles stage from? Who gave the authority to send them in? Why the Army? The LAPD has far more experience in dealing with civil disturbance than the military. I am quite sure that the LAPD would have employed a number of other assets at their disposal prior to "calling in the military". Finally as a former member of the Canadian Forces I am well aware that even with a GPS one can easily become lost/disoriented, particularly when operating in an unfamiliar urban environment. Please take a moment and consider these points before assuming the worst.
Cordially
KP
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get real

by fmr infantry. Friday, Feb. 29, 2008 at 9:25 AM

And this relates to the aggressive display, how?
Lost or found, their guns were uncovered and the posture was confrontational.
Bring your armor back on the streets to imply a threat, and it will be considered as an act of war against the public.
No shit.
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howdy

by red white and brainwashed Thursday, Jun. 12, 2008 at 11:30 AM

fact: they are usmc LAVS
fact: they would have no routes mapped for the usa on their navigation if one is installed at all.
Why where they their :lost... most likely... well maybe to stir up trouble on their way to their parade?
To the commenter about the weapons being not covered or the troops hostile postures ... the military doesn't cover our weapons systems to drive or operate them. Simple:tank has gun. Gun is attached to tank. Where the tank goes the gun goes.

Definitely at the wrong place at the wrong time.

You all try to makes this off to be a bigger deal or something its not. this is far from the wrongs of our government or from the "oppressions" you claim to have felt from them. You can't and won't ever have the power to change anything when you show everyone else how weak and misguided you are. Find a purpose/cause to stand for and do more than stand. Screaming wolf for no reason/ over such stupidity and with the hopes someone ignorant will believe you is going to get you no where .

I lose more respect ,everyday ,for those who call themselves Americans.

me-usarmy
don't get me wrong..........!@#$ the government



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we are the governent's power

by Sgt. Ben There Thursday, Jun. 12, 2008 at 4:36 PM

look, everyone except the ya ya types who haven't read this tedious repitition of "that's not a tank" jabber parrot talk.
I built these eight wheeled mothers.
Like it only maters to morons what exactly it is.
It's armor on our streets without our concent.
We are civilians and we run this nation; not the military. They are our brothers in arms but they are not here to point guns at us in peaceful demonstrations. No matter the flimsy excuse,
That's anti-American and I wont put up with it. I'm not alone.
We pay your salary.
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Ms

by Marysue Shaw Tuesday, Oct. 16, 2012 at 5:36 AM
marysue5252@gmail.com

We are losing our freedoms, our individual rights, and out basic human rights to filthy rich people like the Koch Bros., the Rothschildren, Warren Buffet, and so on. Greed is a crime and the grreedy are destroying the environment, merely to control the rest of us and our commonwealth for their own evil ends. Greed is also a crime. Our first duty is to treat Mother Earth with respect, to waste nothing and take only what we need for our basic survival needs. Billionaires are criminals and need to be jailed and their wealth given away to single moms and their kids, to help the mentally ill, the infirm, the aged, the disabled and to environmentalists to fix the ecological damages done.
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Ms

by Marysue Shaw Tuesday, Oct. 16, 2012 at 5:36 AM
marysue5252@gmail.com

We are losing our freedoms, our individual rights, and out basic human rights to filthy rich people like the Koch Bros., the Rothschildren, Warren Buffet, and so on. Greed is a crime and the grreedy are destroying the environment, merely to control the rest of us and our commonwealth for their own evil ends. Greed is also a crime. Our first duty is to treat Mother Earth with respect, to waste nothing and take only what we need for our basic survival needs. Billionaires are criminals and need to be jailed and their wealth given away to single moms and their kids, to help the mentally ill, the infirm, the aged, the disabled and to environmentalists to fix the ecological damages done.
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