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Open Letter to the Global Indymedia Network from SF Bay Area IMC

by San Francisco Bay Area IMC Friday, Jan. 09, 2004 at 5:59 AM

It is with much sadness and urgency that we inform the greater indymedia community about the ongoing crisis within the San Francisco Bay Area IMC.

Open Letter to the Global Indymedia Network from SF Bay Area IMC

Introduction

It is with much sadness and urgency that we inform the greater 
indymedia community about the ongoing crisis within the San Francisco 
Bay Area IMC.

Previously, we had attempted to resolve internal conflicts among group 
members by engaging in formal mediation, which ultimately resulted in 
an official split of the group into two and a list of specific actions 
upon which each side agreed. This letter is being sent out only after 
these agreements have not been respected by the new SF IMC collective 
that has split from us.

As many of you know, the SF Bay Area IMC had been using both 
sf.indymedia.org and indybay.org since its inception. The SF Bay Area 
IMC website had been hosted on a linefeed.org server which was operated 
by the tech members of our collective.

Conflict

Our IMC has now split into two groups. When a few of the tech members 
began to have personal problems with other members of the collective, 
these tech members demanded a split of the collective. The resulting 
dynamics within the group continued to worsen. It created an 
environment that made it difficult to continue working together and 
also discouraged potential new people from joining the collective. 
While most members of the collective opposed any kind of split, the 
aforementioned tech members insisted that they would split anyway, 
because they wanted to and because they could.

The tech members who wanted the split also had convinced the rest of 
the group to agree to move the site to the linefeed.org server. They 
claimed that this was merely a technical issue which would enable the 
site to run faster.

The members of the splitting group also began making viscious and false 
accusations about other members of the collective. This even went as 
far as accusing some members of being security risks and/or police 
informants.

The splitting group began to take control of the linefeed.org server 
that the SF Bay Area IMC website had been hosted on by kicking off all 
other IMC members from access to it. At the same time, they also cut 
off access to other local activist websites (such as the Food Not Bombs 
News website, liberationradio.net and passionbomb.com) that were being 
hosted on their linefeed.org server. These other websites were 
affiliated, to greater or lesser degrees, with members of SF Bay Area 
IMC with whom the splitting group members were in conflict.

When it was clear that this internal conflict had reached a stalemate, 
a neutral professional mediator was hired to conduct a series of 
mediation meetings.

The continuation of the internal crisis was effectively preventing the 
group from doing their work and was discouraging new people from 
wanting to join the group. Most collective members were fed up with 
having to deal with this conflict. As a result, during the mediation 
process, the rest of the group reluctantly agreed to split the group 
and further conceded to the splitting group's demand to give up the 
sf.indymedia.org domain to them. Also part of the mediation agreement, 
the rest of the group was to keep indybay.org (which at the time still 
pointed to sf.indymedia.org) and also to create a new domain of 
sfbay.indymedia.org. This new domain was to be used along with 
indybay.org once indybay.org was handed over from the splitting group.

The mediation agreement was officially finalized on November 13th, 
2003. Since that time, members of the new sf.indymedia group have 
backtracked on their agreement in multiple ways. The indybay.org DNS 
was supposed to have been handed over by the Monday following the final 
mediation meeting, November 17th. But this did not occur until over a 
month later, in mid-December. And although this "handing over" has 
resulted in indybay.org now pointing to the correct site, they continue 
to refuse to hand over the indybay.org domain ownership, which they 
still control. Also, immediately after the mediation, they locked out 
the group that was now sfbay.indymedia.org (indybay.org) from access to 
sf.indymedia.org. In combination, these actions left the rest of the 
group without a website for over a month.

During this period, the new sf.indymedia group has been hiding posts of 
news stories to the sf.indymedia.org newswire (such as an announcement 
about a live streaming coverage of the recent mayoral election by Enemy 
Combatant Radio) made by members of the indybay.org group, effectively 
censoring the indybay.org group.

The new sf.indymedia group has also refused to place on their website a 
link with an explanation about the split, as both groups agreed to do 
as part of the mediation agreement. Nevertheless, the indybay.org group 
put up the explanation and link immediately after the site was up, 
after the DNS switch.

Also, members of the new sf.indymedia group have been engaging in 
tactics of doublespeak by accusing members of indybay.org of precisely 
the kinds of acts that they themselves have been responsible for, such 
as lying, manipulating, and threatening.

In sf.indymedia.org's recent application for status as a new imc that 
they submitted to the New IMC Working Group, they stated that their 

"supporting groups were too numerous to mention." While we didn't speak 
up then, since we had agreed in good faith during mediation not to stop 
their new IMC process, we now feel, in light of their actions, that 
they should be asked why they failed to list those groups and to show 
who really aligns with them. As far as we know, local activists and 
groups and members of other IMCs who are finding out about the split do 
not support them nor their actions.

List of violations of the mediation agreement by the new 
sf.indymedia.org group:

1. The sf.indymedia.org group has refused to put up a blurb and links 
about the split as agreed to during mediation.

2. The sf.indymedia.org group failed to switch the DNS for indybay.org 
until over a month after the mediation agreement.

3. Before the indybay.org DNS was eventually switched over, a member of 
sf.indymedia.org pointed indybay.org to a non-existent IP address, 
causing many people to stop using indybay.org.

3. Immediately after the mediation was over, a member of 
sf.indymedia.org withdrew half of the money from the imc checking 
account, and then refused to negotiate the price for stickers and 
t-shirts advertising the sf.indymedia.org web site address. According 
to the agreement, the groups would split the money in the bank account 
after sfbay was reimbursed for the mutually agreed upon price for the 
stickers and t-shirts, and sf.indymedia was reimbursed for pieces of 
equipment that sfbay wanted to purchase.

4. The sf.indymedia.org group has deleted the SF-IMC email list and the 
Enemy Combatant Radio (ECR) email list without warning, before anyone 
had the chance to back up three and a half years of work and contacts 
contained in the lists' archives.

5. The sf.indymedia.org group has gone against the agreement by 
redirecting aliases to their new email addresses.

List of actions by the new sf.indymedia.org group that violates the 
indymedia Principles of Unity

1. Members of the linefeed.org server (which now hosts 
sf.indymedia.org, other IMCs and activist websites) have sabotaged 
local activist websites hosted by them that were connected to 
indybay.org.

2. The sf.indymedia.org group has been repeatedly hiding and deleting 
legitimate posts to their newswire by local activists whom they see as 
being connected to indybay.org.

The end result of all of this is that techies with positions of power, 
and a personal vendetta within an IMC collective, have effectively 
hijacked complete control of the website from the rest of the 
collective.

We believe that the behaviors displayed by the members of the new 
sf.indymedia group/linefeed.org are offensive and unacceptable, and 
that they have abused their powers as tech people within the IMC 
network to manipulate and bully others to get their way.

Proposed Resolution

We, the undersigned, request the following from the global tech working 
group and other IMCs in the network:

1. The ownership of the indybay.org domain should be handed over to the 
current members of indybay.org immediately, and

2. sf.indymedia.org should immediately put up texts and links about the 
split on their website as they should have already done as part of the 
agreement.

If both of the above requests are not met immediately, then we ask that:

1. The new sf.indymedia.org's status as an IMC should be revoked, and

2. The current members of the new sf.indymedia.org should be denied 
access and control to the sf.indymedia.org domain, and

3. in the event that the new sf.indymedia.org group should lose control 
of their domain, that it be handed over to the current members of 
indybay.org instead of being destroyed, since it is an established 
community resource, and

4. the money that paid for the mediation should be refunded to the 
current members of indybay.org.

We also request that all IMC websites update their links to the San 
Francisco Bay Area as http://www.indybay.org.

We are hereby challenging the legitimacy of the new sf.indymedia.org 
group for violating its own Principles of Unity by their abusive and 
intimidating behaviors.

We want to stress that we believe this is an urgent, critical matter 
that is in the interest of the entire Indymedia network. What has 
happened here with the SF Bay Area IMC seems to be quite unprecedented 
within the history of the IMC Network, and we hope that we can depend 
on the support from all IMCers to help resolve this conflict and 
maintain accountability within the indymedia network.

In solidarity,

Sarah Olsen - San Francisco Bay Area IMC, SF Liberation Radio
Lisa Sousa - San Francisco Bay Area IMC, AK Press
Mark Burdett - San Francisco Bay Area IMC
Pauline - San Francisco Bay Area IMC
Sunny - Enemy Combatant Radio, San Francisco Bay Area IMC
Zachary Ogren - San Francisco Bay Area IMC
Wayne Wong - San Francisco Bay Area IMC
Peter Maiden - San Francisco Bay Area IMC
Karen Martin - San Francisco Bay Area IMC
Jino Choi - Revolutionary Anti-authoritarians of Color, SF Bay Area IMC
A. Mark Liiv - Whispered Media
Ali
Dan Mattson - San Francisco Bay Area IMC
Pod - Enemy Combatant Radio, Whispered Media
Kevin Keating
Matt Fitt - San Francisco Bay Area IMC
Jeff Taylor - Whispered Media
Lani Riccobuono - Enemy Combatant Radio, San Francisco Bay Area IMC
Lauren A. - San Francisco Bay Area IMC

The San Francisco Bay Area Independent Media Center collective can be 
contacted at sfbay at indymedia.org.

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Oh I see - so NOW it's censoring

by Hex anon w/ encryption Friday, Jan. 09, 2004 at 6:59 AM

> the new sf.indymedia group has been hiding posts of news stories to the sf.indymedia.org newswire (such as an announcement about a live streaming coverage of the recent mayoral election by Enemy Combatant Radio) made by members of the indybay.org group, effectively censoring the indybay.org group.


Odd, when nessie was deleting my posts no one cared (I adopted the handle "censored by sf-imc" for awhile afterward) and no one seemed to consider it censorship...

Yet now that people involved in IMC are the one's being "moderated" it IS censorship.


1.) what group is nessie in with this split ?

2.) who are the tech people ? (this has personal interest for me)


Technical support should not be conditional - should not have strings attached. Should have an open air about it that rises above petty disagreements on the day-to-day operations (we're too busy working on technical projects like IMPROVING STREAMING SOUND QUALITY to worry with such matters)


Considering what I've seen and read about sf-imc, this is the predicted growing pain.

Some people go through life avoiding problems thinking happyness or meaning comes from lack of them. The opposite is true, life is all about how we handle problems. Any group will face growing pains, the fact that a mediator was called in alone shows dysfunction.


Although I know none of the details of this evolving conflict, I can safely predict nessie is on *the bad side of it* after experiencing his underhanded games on the main IMC and collecting complaints raised by others every since.

All I know for sure is he is a disructive force within any group and his personality type isn't rare. I'm left wondering how much he has to do with the situation going sour (as opposed to the group simply mending thier differences)

The critical aspect is liars v honest people. Liars cause disruption by thier very nature with *any* person who values honesty. This is my specific problem with him. There can never be cooperation as long as a liar is allowed to spin his web of deceit, as a liar constantly requires something to lie about, so the problems never end.

As more people get fed up with the game (liars stick together) it becomes a war of words with both sides accusing the other of dishonesty. Reality however knows better.

This is where I find myself - on several technical points nessie was wrong about he would never admit so and piled lies upon lies to cover them...

So at least for that perspective if tech people who value honesty (like me) had conflict with him (and/or people like him) the first thing he does is accuse the honest of being liars.

My question is whether nessie is part of the group doing the mud slinging (placing all fault on the above mentioned tech people) or whether the tech people are the actual liars as stated above.

Due to my dealings with him, I'd be inclined to say it's his old game of calling the honest liars as a smokescreen as he's done with me in the past on the main IMC (and not just me - he even went as far as calling Tom Greene a liar/agent after he posted a retraction on DIRT which agreed with what I said all along)

People rarely change, so it's unlikely he's mended his lying, game playing and underhanded tactics (although he has been "hiding out" on sf-imc every since and avoids technical issues)


Just a single person of nessie's personality can be a very destructive force within a group even without other like-minded people. There's a good chance there are more like him based on statistics.

Once more it all boils down to how much a person values honesty, and a rough line is drawn beyond which liars joyfully play thier games while honest people fear to tread.

Honest people who allow these types in the group sow the seeds of thier own demise.

This open letter is proof of what it yields...

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DEJA VU?

by Pierre Talley Friday, Jan. 09, 2004 at 7:05 AM
pierre790z@yahoo.com

This type of thing sounds like what happened to individuals and groups over 30 years ago.While I would not blame government for this,I'm sure they are very satisfied with your split and hope that you countinue with it for a long time.They would also hope that your split carries over to other organizations.

When the hell are people going to learn that it's about the issues at hand and not about your fucking stupid side issues,egos and personalities???
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The commies had it coming.

by lasdkfjalkdfj Friday, Jan. 09, 2004 at 7:17 AM

I can not put into words the feelings of joy and happiness this sf indymedia split is giving me. Here's hoping they come to blows over it!

I can not put into words the feelings of joy and happiness this sf indymedia split is giving me. Here's hoping they come to blows over it!

I can not put into words the feelings of joy and happiness this sf indymedia split is giving me. Here's hoping they come to blows over it!
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The ghost of Cointelpro

by oak Friday, Jan. 09, 2004 at 8:53 AM

Shame on any of you who let this get out of hand or who let their own ego become infected. You ALL know that the ghost of Cointelpro lurks in the shadows. Whatever you do, don't take a page from the AIM playbook where, reportedly, rancor and division continue to this day. Anyone who insists on being confrontational and divisive should be shunned.
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Anarchy, Smanarchy

by gotchaman Friday, Jan. 09, 2004 at 9:23 AM

Typical anarchist method of "organization." Yes... it was all destined to fly apart. Anarchy, Smanarchy! All you black bloc-heads needed was a little push from the those who had infiltrated your group.

Yeah... anarchists... and the working class is supposed to follow you. HA!
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splits, anarchy, socialism, etc.

by Meyer London Friday, Jan. 09, 2004 at 10:40 AM

All of this is utterly depressing but, alas, perhaps inevitable. Splits and and infighting have plagued the left at least since the days of Marx vs. Bakunin, and seem to be as much of a permanent work hazard as getting rained on or menaced by dogs if you are a letter carrier.
Perhaps the best that can be hoped for is that groups remain on speaking terms after splits and conflicts and willing to work together at least on a united front basis on specific issues. Needless to say, physical confrontations should be avoided like fire and the Stalinist tactic of calling all political opponents on the left secret fascists or police agents should be utterly rejected.
Despite the mocking post above asking how left groups are ever going to build a new society when they have conflicts like this, it should be remembered that conflict and disagreement is part of democracy. Only bureaucrat and tyrant wannabes would think otherwise. Besides, anyone who looks at the history of liberal, conservative, reactionary and fascist groups will see that they are just as plagued by splits and sectarianism as the left. Plenty of liberal groups split in two during the McCarthy Era over the issue of endorsing the Commie hunt. The right wingers in the US today are often bitterly divided - free marketers vs traditonalists, libertarians vs militarists, and so forth. And how many splits have there been in the KKK or in the various fascist militia groups?
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solid solutions - but will we impliment them ?

by Hex anon w/ encryption Friday, Jan. 09, 2004 at 12:18 PM

> Splits and and infighting have plagued the left


This effects everyone. The only difference is we don't revel in it as something to be proud of like the LGF shills do. Despite all efforts though it's much like human nature (I don't actually believe in human nature, to me it's a cultural dynamic)

Again it comes down to honesty - liars *never* want to be known as such so they always point elsewhere. The only question is whether data supports honesty thus exposing them anyway, and whether the balance of staff are honest plus value honesty enough to defend it.

One of the other ways liars manipulate people is by grinding down positive aspects of social arrangements in order to stifle the very people who are a threat to them - people who value honesty enough to defend it. This tactic attempts to pull everyone down to thier level to narrow the difference between honesty and deceit.

If most of the people in question are NOT honest (which is typical) then this succeeds. If however this is so, there's really nothing *worth* saving as liars accomplish nothing important.

It's best to just set up an all new staff carefully screened for honesty and with the attitude that IMC is more important than the staff who run it.

This shake-up in organisations is very common and is considered just growing pains.

A very important point is that liars think of all situations as only a game - the game *always* takes priority over all other concerns. Liars never admit they lie, you have to PROVE they do - to other people. Then those people have to care enough to take action.

You can't talk a liar into being honest - there's reasoning or appeal to ethics that will reach them. Just as troll shills here are completely beyond reason - as this isn't what they are here FOR anyway. As part of the game they attempt to keep thier true motivations secret - even when abundant data proves them both wrong and shows the game.

To them it's nothing more than a word game no matter what's at stake.

We have a common mentality of solidarity based on respect for human life and other high values. If nothing else at least this can be appealed to when we get into in-fighting and other common/typical human behaviors. These trolls have no such safety line - they will go to any low to further thier agenda as *truth it'self has no value to them*.

Illusion is what they crave and thrive on, so it's only natural (for them) to attempt to *infect other's with thier venom* and thus generate more "EV" for themselves which is all they really care about.

Being entertained


I've forwarded several ways to prevent and combat all of these problems as I've seen success with these methods over the years.

The real problem here is the "good guys" are not really much better than the trolls in ways that are critical in maintaining an atmosphere that's distasteful them. In other words, because even the trolls function in a way where they tells *us* what we want to condem, and try to make us feel important by interacting with them at all v. simply doing our own activities that we get far more enjoyment out of ourselves, they in a way feed our own "addictions" or weaknesses (imperfections) to distract us from simply *keeping too busy to even deal with them at all* which is EXACTLY what we should be doing.


There's a certain level of involvement (paying attention to) with trolls above which they gain the upper hand simply because *people fail to ignore them*. The difference between IMC's that successfully grow past this milestone and those who remain mired in the muck rests on this balance point.

I've seen this in play ;

Successful

A troll posts bait, and either it's completely ignored ***AND HIDDEN QUICKLY*** or *several* IMC patrons work together to completely discredit it.


Unsuccessful


A troll posts bait, one or more IMC patrons responds and/or the trollbait is NOT hidden and/or only one or no IMC patron discredits it.


All trolls need to hang on is a tiny bit of attention combined with a lack of *solidarity by us* to survive.


Trolls will always post bait, some people will always be dishonest..

The only real question is how those of us that don't *deal* with them.


On here the trolls have more solidarity and motivation than we do, spend more time doing it and we have no effective tools to resist them.

Now there are efforts being expended, alternatives being explored and solutions being sought and obviously we all have the same goal.

But a measure of the importance of disrupting to the trolls seems to get lost on us as we seem to be forgetting to factor in the amount of time and energy they invest into it. This alone speaks volumes about both the importance and thier *true motivations*.

They (as liars often do) think all they need to do is repeat more lies over & over again and we'll magicly forget all that has transpired (the constant heavy round-the-clock harassment, the death threats and other severe abuses)

Only an *uncompromising stance* to fully control and eliminate them from continuing thier activities here will ever be successful, as anything less than this gives them the attention they crave and keeps the glimmer of hope burning that they still have a chance to succeed.


One of the first steps is to complain to thier ISP's which have rules specificly addressing this kind of abuse. This needs to be followed through *without exception* as it becomes very difficult and expensive to keep having to change ISP's for every several abusive posts.

Registration to a vote system so IMC patrons can effectively lock them out with minimal effort on the IMC staff.

Comprehensive IP ban lists that are actively maintained. This needs to include blocking proxies as well.

Registration that forces a patron to stick to one name. e-mail varification to keep them from setting up multible accounts and thus bypassing the other security measures.

By my standards (and the law and ISP rules) they are illegal hackers intent on invading IMC server space and thus are a *security matter*.

The IP blocks alone make them so, e-mailing this fact to thier ISP would by it'self be enough, then with the death threats, harassment and so on, get thier internet access pulled entirely (they would have to use another ISP)

A time lockout and a limit on the number of posts per day (comments included) from any one non-otherwise blocked IP.


Overlapping strong measures like these will make it too hard and slow for them to continue spamming/abusing/harassing/disrupting/distracting, compared to normal IMC patrons who wouldn't be doing any of these things in the first place.



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Supporting evidence of sf.indymedia.org's violations

by indybay member Sunday, Jan. 11, 2004 at 2:35 AM

Below, you will find supporting evidence of some of the actions by the  
new sf.indymedia.org group as outlined in the timeline document:
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-us-process/2004-January/000270.html

1. http://www.indybay.org/images/ecr_hidden12-9-03.jpg
This is a screen capture of an announcement post by Enemy Combatant  
Radio to sf.indymedia.org on 12/9/03 that was hidden immediately. As  
you can see, indybay.org still pointed to sf.indymedia.org at the time  
but one member of the sf.indymedia group (with no agreement even from  
the people in his own group) had already locked the indybay.org group  
out of the shared site by taking away the admin passwords, leaving them  
without a website. For reference, Enemy Combatant Radio is a project  
affiliated with members of indybay.org.

This article was later unhidden after this post was made by a reader:

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/12/1664695.php

2. http://www.indybay.org/images/whispered_hidden_12_18_03.jpg
This is a screen capture of an announcement post by Whispered Media to  
sf.indymedia.org on 12/18/03 that was immediately hidden. Whispered  
Media is a video collective that has an office in the same suite as  
indybay.org.

3. http://www.indybay.org/images/sfimcspam_12_24_03.jpg
This is a screen capture of multiple spam made on the indybay.org  
newswire on 12/23/03. The contents of those spams can be seen here:
https://www.indybay.org/news/2003/12/1666449.php
https://www.indybay.org/news/2003/12/1666450.php
This is one example of many instances of such "pro-sf.indymedia.org" spam made on indybay.org.

As many of you know by now, Enemy Combatant Radio's website:  
www.enemycombatantradio.org was taken down by a person associated with  
sf.indymedia.org on 1/7/04, the day after the indybay.org collective  
had sent out the open letter:
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-us-process/2004-January/000266.html 

The indybay.org domain is still owned by a member of sf.indymedia.org,  
even though it is not website they have anything to do with anymore as  
shown in the mediation agreement:
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/2004-January/004742.html

All of this indicates there has been gross violations of the trust  
within the indymedia network that techies with control of resources  
will not abuse their power for any reason.

We hope that everyone in the indymedia community realizes that this is  
an issue of tech abuse of power that will have serious implications  
throughout the entire network. Member of the sf.indymedia.org (and  
their linefeed.org tech collective) who are responsible for the  
violations of the indymedia Principles of Unity as shown above, still  
currently operate the server (stray linefeed server) that many IMC  
sites are hosted on. They include:

Tijuana - http://tijuana.indymedia.org
Colombia - http://colombia.indymedia.org
Hawaii - http://hawaii.indymedia.org
Peru - http://peru.indymedia.org
Uruguay - http://uruguay.indymedia.org --
Argentina - http://argentina.indymedia.org
Bolivia - http://bolivia.indymedia.org
Chile - http://chile.indymedia.org
Istanbul - http://istanbul.indymedia.org
Jerusalem - http://jerusalem.indymedia.org
South Africa - http://southafrica.indymedia.org
Utah - http://utah.indymedia.org
Thunderbay - http://thunderbay.indymedia.org
Houston - http://houston.indymedia.org
Arizona - http://arizona.indymedia.org

The sf.indymedia.org/linefeed.org members have shown through their  
actions that they cannot be entrusted with the amount of power they  
hold by controlling IMC tech resources. I ask all member of the  
indymedia network to help hold these individuals accountable for their  
actions.

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gotchaman - not infiltration

by more rational Sunday, Jan. 11, 2004 at 6:06 AM

It doesn't sound like infiltration, but infighting.

Meyer has it right: look at all the splits of the KKK, or the various communist groups. The Greens have infighting. The Libertarian Party has it. KPFK, Pacifica. These things happen.

People fight inside corporations, in volunteer groups, in churches. It's just group dynamics.
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"This open letter is proof of what it yields... "

by indeed it is Tuesday, Mar. 30, 2004 at 5:16 AM

It's proof that SFBay-IMC has been caught red handed forging other people's names to their slanderous manifesto.

See:

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/01/1671143_comment.php#1672316

and

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/01/1671143_comment.php#1672321


Once something like that has happened, only fools would take at face value anything they said, about anything, ever again.
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who cares?

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Mar. 30, 2004 at 8:33 AM

I like nessie's comments and his files but I swear they are terribly thin skinned. It must be due to the constant attacks by asshole trolls.
Hmmm, kinda like this site get assaulted by/with/at.
Another staged pissing match.
Why bring it over here?
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sfimc

by brigg Tuesday, Mar. 30, 2004 at 8:27 PM

>Just a single person of nessie's personality can be a very destructive force within a group even without other like-minded people.

nessie had more integrity in his shit than you could ever hope to have, and he didn't have much integrity at all.

Hex, you are worthless. You couldn't even keep the Oct. 15th deadline date. Moron.

Meyer can't think.

Neither can Sheepdip.

dingo was even worse.

nessie is the only half-way descent thing you fucking idiots had to offer and you're pissing on him. Another reason it used to be fun to come here and laugh at your "revolution". Now, you're just beyond pitiful.
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what's the matter, brig?

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Mar. 30, 2004 at 9:50 PM

you're kinda thrashing around in your own froth there.
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