CounterPunch



October 24, 2003

Rockets, Napalm, Torpedoes & Lies Israel's Attack on the Liberty, Revisited

by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

[This is an excerpt from CounterPunch's hot new book, The Politics of Anti-Semitism, just released by AK Press.]

In early June of 1967, at the onset of the Six Day War, the Pentagon sent the USS Liberty from Spain into international waters off the coast of Gaza to monitor the progress of Israel's attack on the Arab states. The Liberty was a lightly armed surveillance ship.

Only hours after the Liberty arrived it was spotted by the Israeli military. The IDF sent out reconnaissance planes to identify the ship. They made eight trips over a period of three hours. The Liberty was flying a large US flag and was easily recognizable as an American vessel.

A few hours later more planes came. These were Israeli Mirage III fighters, armed with rockets and machine guns. As off-duty officers sunbathed on the deck, the fighters opened fire on the defenseless ship with rockets and machine guns.

A few minutes later a second wave of planes streaked overhead, French-built Mystere jets, which not only pelted the ship with gunfire but also with napalm bomblets, coating the deck with the flaming jelly. By now, the Liberty was on fire and dozens were wounded and killed, excluding several of the ship's top officers.

The Liberty's radio team tried to issue a distress call, but discovered the frequencies had been jammed by the Israeli planes with what one communications specialist called "a buzzsaw sound." Finally, an open channel was found and the Liberty got out a message it was under attack to the USS America, the Sixth Fleet's large aircraft carrier.

Two F-4s left the carrier to come to the Liberty's aid. Apparently, the jets were armed only with nuclear weapons. When word reached the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara became irate and ordered the jets to return. "Tell the Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately," he barked. McNamara's injunction was reiterated in saltier terms by Admiral David L. McDonald, the chief of Naval Operations: "You get those fucking airplanes back on deck, and you get them back down." The planes turned around. And the attack on the Liberty continued.

After the Israeli fighter jets had emptied their arsenal of rockets, three Israeli attack boats approached the Liberty. Two torpedoes were launched at the crippled ship, one tore a 40-foot wide hole in the hull, flooding the lower compartments, and killing more than a dozen American sailors.

As the Liberty listed in the choppy seas, its deck aflame, crew members dropped life rafts into the water and prepared to scuttle the ship. Given the number of wounded, this was going to be a dangerous operation. But it soon proved impossible, as the Israeli attack boats strafed the rafts with machine gun fire. No body was going to get out alive that way.

After more than two hours of unremitting assault, the Israelis finally halted their attack. One of the torpedo boats approached the Liberty. An officer asked in English over a bullhorn: "Do you need any help?"

The wounded commander of the Liberty, Lt. William McGonagle, instructed the quartermaster to respond emphatically: "Fuck you."

The Israeli boat turned and left.

A Soviet destroyer responded before the US Navy, even though a US submarine, on a covert mission, was apparently in the area and had monitored the attack. The Soviet ship reached the Liberty six hours before the USS Davis. The captain of the Soviet ship offered his aid, but the Liberty's conning officer refused.

Finally, 16 hours after the attack two US destroyers reached the Liberty. By that time, 34 US sailors were dead and 174 injured, many seriously. As the wounded were being evacuated, an officer with the Office of Naval Intelligence instructed the men not to talk about their ordeal with the press.

The following morning Israel launched a surprise invasion of Syria, breaching the new cease-fire agreement and seizing control of the Golan Heights.

Within three weeks, the Navy put out a 700-page report, exonerating the Israelis, claiming the attack had been accidental and that the Israelis had pulled back as soon as they realized their mistake. Defense Secretary Robert McNamara suggested the whole affair should be forgotten. "These errors do occur," McNamara concluded.

***



In Assault on the Liberty, a harrowing first-hand account by James Ennes Jr., McNamara's version of events is proven to be as big a sham as his concurrent lies about Vietnam. Ennes's book created a media storm when it was first published by Random House in 1980, including (predictably) charges that Ennes was a liar and an anti-Semite. Still, the book sold more than 40,000 copies, but was eventually allowed to go out of print. Now Ennes has published an updated version, which incorporates much new evidence that the Israeli attack was deliberate and that the US government went to extraordinary lengths to disguise the truth.

It's a story of Israel aggression, Pentagon incompetence, official lies, and a cover-up that persists to this day. The book gains much of its power from the immediacy of Ennes's first-hand account of the attack and the lies that followed.

Now, 35 years later, Ennes warns that the bloodbath on board the Liberty and its aftermath should serve as a tragic cautionary tale about the continuing ties between the US government and the government of Israel.

The Attack on the Liberty is the kind of book that makes your blood seethe. Ennes skillfully documents the life of the average sailor on one of the more peculiar vessels in the US Navy, with an attention for detail that reminds one of Dana or O'Brien. After all, the year was 1967 and most of the men on the Liberty were certainly glad to be on a non-combat ship in the middle of the Mediterranean, rather than in the Gulf of Tonkin or Mekong Delta.

But this isn't Two Years Before the Mast. In fact, Ennes's tour on the Liberty last only a few short weeks. He had scarcely settled into a routine before his new ship was shattered before his eyes.

Ennes joined the Liberty in May of 1967, as an Electronics Material Officer. Serving on a "spook ship", as the Liberty was known to Navy wives, was supposed to be a sure path to career enhancement. The Liberty's normal routine was to ply the African coast, tuning in its eavesdropping equipment on the electronic traffic in the region.

The Liberty had barely reached Africa when it received a flash message from the Joint Chiefs of Staff to sail from the Ivory Coast to the Mediterranean, where it was to re-deploy off the coast of the Sinai to monitor the Israeli attack on Egypt and the allied Arab nations.

As the war intensified, the Liberty sent a request to the fleet headquarters requesting an escort. It was denied by Admiral William Martin. The Liberty moved alone to a position in international waters about 13 miles from the shore at El Arish, then under furious siege by the IDF.

On June 6, the Joint Chiefs sent Admiral McCain, father of the senator from Arizona, an urgent message instructing him to move the Liberty out of the war zone to a position at least 100 miles off the Gaza Coast. McCain never forwarded the message to the ship.

A little after seven in the morning on June 8, Ennes entered the bridge of the Liberty to take the morning watch. Ennes was told that an hour earlier a "flying boxcar" (later identified as a twin-engine Nord 2501 Noratlas) had flown over the ship at a low level.

Ennes says he noticed that the ship's American flag had become stained with soot and ordered a new flag run up the mast. The morning was clear and calm, with a light breeze.

At 9 am, Ennes spotted another reconnaissance plane, which circled the Liberty. An hour later two Israeli fighter jets buzzed the ship. Over the next four hours, Israeli planes flew over the Liberty five more times.

When the first fighter jet struck, a little before two in the afternoon, Ennes was scanning the skies from the starboard side of the bridge, binoculars in his hands. A rocket hit the ship just below where Ennes was standing, the fragments shredded the men closest to him.

After the explosion, Ennes noticed that he was the only man left standing. But he also had been hit by more than 20 shards of shrapnel and the force of the blast had shattered his left leg. As he crawled into the pilothouse, a second fighter jet streaked above them and unleashed its payload on the hobbled Liberty.

At that point, Ennes says the crew of the Liberty had no idea who was attacking them or why. For a few moments, they suspected it might be the Soviets, after an officer mistakenly identified the fighters as MIG-15s. They knew that the Egyptian air force already had been decimated by the Israelis. The idea that the Israelis might be attacking them didn't occur to them until one of the crew spotted a Star of David on the wing of one of the French-built Mystere jets.

Ennes was finally taken below deck to a makeshift dressing station, with other wounded men. It was hardly a safe harbor. As Ennes worried that his fractured leg might slice through his femoral artery leaving him to bleed to death, the Liberty was pummeled by rockets, machine-gun fire and an Italian-made torpedo packed with 1,000-pounds of explosive.

After the attack ended, Ennes was approached by his friend Pat O'Malley, a junior officer, who had just sent a list of killed and wounded to the Bureau of Naval Personnel. He got an immediate message back. "They said, 'Wounded in what action? Killed in what action?'," O'Malley told Ennes. "They said it wasn't an 'action,' it was an accident. I'd like for them to come out here and see the difference between an action and an accident. Stupid bastards."

The cover-up had begun.

***



The Pentagon lied to the public about the attack on the Liberty from the very beginning. In a decision personally approved by the loathsome McNamara, the Pentagon denied to the press that the Liberty was an intelligence ship, referring to it instead as a Technical Research ship, as if it were little more than a military version of Jacques Cousteau's Calypso.

The military press corps on the USS America, where most of the wounded sailors had been taken, were placed under extreme restrictions. All of the stories filed from the carrier were first routed through the Pentagon for security clearance, objectionable material was removed with barely a bleat of protest from the reporters or their publications.

Predictably, Israel's first response was to blame the victim, a tactic that has served them so well in the Palestinian situation. First, the IDF alleged that it had asked the State Department and the Pentagon to identify any US ships in the area and was told that there were none. Then the Israeli government charged that the Liberty failed to fly its flag and didn't respond to calls for it to identify itself. The Israelis contended that they assumed the Liberty was an Egyptian supply ship called El Quseir, which, even though it was a rusting transport ship then docked in Alexandria, the IDF said it suspected of shelling Israeli troops from the sea. Under these circumstances, the Israeli's said they were justified in opening fire on the Liberty. The Israelis said that they halted the attack almost immediately, when they realized their mistake.

"The Liberty contributed decisively toward its identification as an enemy ship," the IDF report concluded. This was a blatant falsehood, since the Israelis had identified the Liberty at least six hours prior to the attack on the ship.

Even though the Pentagon knew better, it gave credence to the Israeli account by saying that perhaps the Liberty's flag had lain limp on the flagpole in a windless sea. The Pentagon also suggested that the attack might have lasted less than 20 minutes.

After the initial battery of misinformation, the Pentagon imposed a news blackout on the Liberty disaster until after the completion of a Court of Inquiry investigation.

The inquiry was headed by Rear Admiral Isaac C. Kidd. Kidd didn't have a free hand. He'd been instructed by Vice-Admiral McCain to limit the damage to the Pentagon and to protect the reputation of Israel.

The Kidd interviewed the crew on June 14 and 15. The questioning was extremely circumscribed. According to Ennes, the investigators "asked nothing that might be embarrassing to Israeland testimony that tended to embarrass Israel was covered with a 'Top Secret' label, if it was accepted at all."

Ennes notes that even testimony by the Liberty's communications officers about the jamming of the ship's radios was classified as "Top Secret." The reason? It proved that Israel knew it was attacking an American ship. "Here was strong evidence that the attack was planned in advance and that our ship's identity was known to the attackers (for it its practically impossible to jam the radio of a stranger), but this information was hushed up and no conclusions were drawn from it," Ennes writes.

Similarly, the Court of Inquiry deep-sixed testimony and affidavits regarding the flag-Ennes had ordered a crisp new one deployed early on the morning of the attack. The investigators buried intercepts of conversations between IDF pilots identifying the ship as flying an American flag.

It also refused to accept evidence about the IDF's use of napalm during the attacks and choose not to hear testimony regarding the duration of the attacks and the fact that the US Navy failed to send planes to defend the ship.

"No one came to help us," said Dr. Richard F. Kiepfer, the Liberty's physician. "We were promised help, but no help came. The Russians arrived before our own ships did. We asked for an escort before we ever came to the war zone and we were turned down."

None of this made its way into the 700-page Court of Inquiry report, which was completed within a couple of weeks and sent to Admiral McCain in London for review.

McCain approved the report over the objections of Captain Merlin Staring, the Navy legal officer assigned to the inquiry, who found the report to be flawed, incomplete and contrary to the evidence.

Staring sent a letter to the Judge Advocate General of the Navy disavowing himself from the report. The JAG seemed to take Staring's objections to heart. It prepared a summary for the Chief of Naval Operations that almost completely ignored the Kidd/McCain report. Instead, it concluded:

* that the Liberty was easily recognizable as an American naval vessel;
* that it's flag was fully deployed and flying in a moderate breeze;
* that Israeli planes made at least eight reconnaissance flights at close range;
* the ship came under a prolonged attack from Israeli fighter jets and torpedo boats.

This succinct and largely accurate report was stamped Top Secret by Navy brass and stayed locked up for many years. But it was seen by many in the Pentagon and some in the Oval Office. But here was enough grumbling about the way the Liberty incident had been handled that LBJ summoned that old Washington fixer Clark Clifford to do damage control. It didn't take Clifford long to come up with the official line: the Israelis simply had made a tragic mistake.

It turns out that the Admiral Kidd and Captain Ward Boston, the two investigating officers who prepared the original report for Admiral McCain, both believed that the Israeli attack was intentional and sustained. In other words, the IDF knew that they were striking an American spy ship and they wanted to sink it and kill as many sailors as possible. Why then did the Navy investigators produce a sham report that concluded it was an accident?

Twenty-five years later we've finally found out. In June of 2002, Captain Boston told the Navy Times: "Officers follow orders."

It gets worse. There's plenty of evidence that US intelligence agencies learned on June 7 that Israel intended to attack the Liberty on the following day and that the strike had been personally ordered by Moshe Dayan.

As the attacks were going on, conversations between Israeli pilots were overheard by US Air Force officers in an EC121 surveillance plane overhead. The spy plane was spotted by Israeli jets, which were given orders to shoot it down. The American plane narrowly avoided the IDF missiles.

Initial reports on the incident prepared by the CIA, Office of Naval Intelligence and the National Security Agency all reached similar conclusions.

A particularly damning report compiled by a CIA informant suggests that Israeli Defense minister Moshe Dayan personally ordered the attack and wanted it to proceed until the Liberty was sunk and all on board killed. A heavily redacted version of the report was released in 1977. It reads in part:

"[The source] said that Dayan personally ordered the attack on the ship and that one of his generals adamantly opposed the action and said, 'This is pure murder.' One of the admirals who was present also disapproved of the action, and it was he who ordered it stopped and not Dayan."

This amazing document generated little attention from the press and Dayan was never publicly questioned about his role in the attack.

The analyses by the intelligence agencies are collected in a 1967 investigation by the Defense Subcommittee on Appropriations. Two and half decades later that report remains classified. Why? A former committee staffer said: "So as not to embarrass Israel."

More proof has recently come to light from the Israeli side. A few years after Attack on the Liberty was originally published, Ennes got a call from Evan Toni, an Israeli pilot. Toni told Ennes that he had just read his book and wanted to tell him his story. Toni said that he was the pilot in the first Israeli Mirage fighter to reach the Liberty. He immediately recognized the ship to be a US Navy vessel. He radioed Israeli air command with this information and asked for instructions. Toni said he was ordered to "attack." He refused and flew back to the air base at Ashdod. When he arrived he was summarily arrested for disobeying orders.

***



How tightly does the Israeli lobby control the Hill? For the first time in history, an attack on an America ship was not subjected to a public investigation by Congress. In 1980, Adlai Stevenson and Barry Goldwater planned to open a senate hearing into the Liberty affair. Then Jimmy Carter intervened by brokering a deal with Menachem Begin, where Israel agreed to pony up $6 million to pay for damages to the ship. A State Department press release announced the payment said, "The book is now closed on the USS Liberty."

It certainly was the last chapter for Adlai Stevenson. He ran for governor of Illinois the following year, where his less than perfect record on Israel, and his unsettling questions about the Liberty affair, became an issue in the campaign. Big money flowed into the coffers of his Republican opponent, Big Jim Thompson, and Stevenson went down to a narrow defeat.

But the book wasn't closed for the sailors either, of course. After a Newsweek story exposed the gist of what really happened on that day in the Mediterranean, an enraged Admiral McCain placed all the sailors under a gag order. When one sailor told an officer that he was having problems living with the cover-up, he was told: "Forget about it, that's an order."

The Navy went to bizarre lengths to keep the crew of the Liberty from telling what they knew. When gag orders didn't work, they threatened sanctions. Ennes tells of the confinement and interrogation of two Liberty sailors that sounds like something right out of the CIA's MK-Ultra program.

"In an incredible abuse of authority, military officers held two young Liberty sailors against their will in a locked and heavily guarded psychiatric ward of the base hospital," Ennes writes. "For days these men were drugged and questioned about their recollections of the attack by a 'therapist' who admitted to being untrained in either psychiatry or psychology. At one point, they avoided electroshock only by bolting from the room and demanding to see the commanding officer."

Since coming home, the veterans who have tried to tell of their ordeal have been harassed relentlessly. They've been branded as drunks, bigots, liars and frauds. Often, it turns out, these slurs have been leaked by the Pentagon. And, oh yeah, they've also been painted as anti-Semites.

In a recent column, Charley Reese describes just how mean-spirited and petty this campaign became. "When a small town in Wisconsin decided to name its library in honor of the USS Liberty crewmen, a campaign claiming it was anti-Semitic was launched," writes Reese. "And when the town went ahead, the U.S. government ordered no Navy personnel to attend, and sent no messages. This little library was the first, and at the time the only, memorial to the men who died on the Liberty."

***



So why then did the Israelis attack the Liberty?

A few days before the Six Days War, Israel's Foreign Minister Abba Eban visited Washington to inform LBJ about the forthcoming invasion. Johnson cautioned Eban that the US could not support such an attack.

It's possible, then, that the IDF assumed that the Liberty was spying on the Israeli war plans. Possible, but not likely. Despite the official denials, as Andrew and Leslie Cockburn demonstrate in Dangerous Liaison, at the time of the Six Days War the US and Israel had developed a warm covert relationship. So closely were the two sides working that US intelligence aid certainly helped secure Israel's devastating and swift victory. In fact, it's possible that the Liberty had been sent to the region to spy for the IDF.

A somewhat more likely scenario holds that Moshe Dayan wanted to keep the lid on Israel's plan to breach the new cease-fire and invade into Syria to seize the Golan.

It has also been suggested that Dayan ordered the attack on the Liberty with the intent of pinning the blame on the Egyptians and thus swinging public and political opinion in the United States solidly behind the Israelis. Of course, for this plan to work, the Liberty had to be destroyed and its crew killed.

There's another factor. The Liberty was positioned just off the coast from the town of El Arish. In fact, Ennes and others had used town's mosque tower to fix the location of the ship along the otherwise featureless desert shoreline. The IDF had seized El Arish and had used the airport there as a prisoner of war camp. On the very day the Liberty was attacked, the IDF was in the process of executing as many as 1,000 Palestinian and Egyptian POWs, a war crime that they surely wanted to conceal from prying eyes. According to Gabriel Bron, now an Israeli reporter, who witnessed part of the massacre as a soldier: "The Egyptian prisoners of war were ordered to dig pits and then army police shot them to death."

The bigger question is why the US government would participate so enthusiastically in the cover-up of a war crime against its own sailors. Well, the Pentagon has never been slow to hide its own incompetence. And there's plenty of that in the Liberty affair: bungled communications, refusal to provide an escort, situating the defenseless Liberty too close to a raging battle, the inability to intervene in the attack and the inexcusably long time it took to reach the battered ship and its wounded.

That's but par for the course. But something else was going on that would only come to light later. Through most of the 1960s, the US congress had imposed a ban on the sale of arms to both Israel and Jordan. But at the time of the Liberty attack, the Pentagon (and its allies in the White House and on the Hill) was seeking to have this proscription overturned. The top brass certainly knew that any evidence of a deliberate attack on a US Navy ship by the IDF would scuttle their plans. So they hushed it up.

In January 1968, the arms embargo on Israel was lifted and the sale of American weapons began to flow. By 1971, Israel was buying $600 million of American-made weapons a year. Two years later the purchases topped $3 billion. Almost overnight, Israel had become the largest buyer of US-made arms and aircraft.

Perversely, then, the IDF's strike on the Liberty served to weld the US and Israel together, in a kind of political and military embrace. Now, every time the IDF attacks defenseless villages in Gaza and the West Bank with F-16s and Apache helicopters, the Palestinians quite rightly see the bloody assaults as a joint operation, with the Pentagon as a hidden partner.

Thus, does the legacy of Liberty live on, one raid after another.



USS Liberty Page at What Really Happened (Just Updated): http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html

"After more than two hours of unremitting assault, the Israelis finally halted their attack. One of the torpedo boats approached the Liberty. An officer asked in English over a bullhorn: "Do you need any help?" The wounded commander of the Liberty, Lt. William McGonagle, instructed the quartermaster to respond emphatically: "Fuck you."

That's better than "Damn the Torpedoes...".

"The following morning Israel launched a surprise invasion of Syria, breaching the new cease-fire agreement and seizing control of the Golan Heights. "

With gems like this, I think it's fair to say that the entire, er, article, is a work of fiction.

Here's the deal. No one knows absolutely what happened that day. All the non hearsay evidence points only in the direction that Israel mistajenly fired on the Liberty.

Perhaps that's incorrect. Perhaps israel went crazy that day and for whatever reason, decided to attck a ship of their staunchest ally.

But all the anti-Israel evidence is just that. Stories like the above which have absolutely NO credibility. It's all secondhand opinion and assumptions. And it usually contains flat out lies or implictions like the one above about Israel "surprise attcking " Syria. I won't even go into how ridiculous that is.

Anyway, maybe the Liberty was attcked on purpose and maybe it wasn't. All we have is the tapes and transcripts which show mistaken identity. Everything else is just so much hot air.

Two F-4s left the carrier to come to the Liberty's aid. Apparently, the jets were armed only with nuclear weapons.
WTF?
no other arms on any of the waiting aircrat? Incredible, unbelieveable.

After more than two hours of unremitting assault, the Israelis finally halted their attack. One of the torpedo boats approached the Liberty. An officer asked in English over a bullhorn: "Do you need any help?"

The wounded commander of the Liberty, Lt. William McGonagle, instructed the quartermaster to respond emphatically: "Fuck you

- No mention of all of the signaling that went on? McGonagle swore in his testimony that this sort of comunication had gone on with signals not over a bull horn.

http://ussliberty.org/torpedo.txt

" 1503 [LOG:] ONE MTB (torpedo boat) RETURNED TO SHIP AND SIGNALLED "DO YOU
NEED HELP" IN ENGLISH C.O. SIGNALLED "NEGATIVE""
"The signal intended to convey the fact
that the ship was maneuvering with difficulty and that
they should keep clear."

also first attack regarding the torpedo boats...
1431 [LOG:] MACHINE GUN 53 OPENED FIRE. C.O. SENT ENS LUCAS AROUND PORT SIDE OF BRIDGE TO GET MACHINE GUN 53 TO CEASE FIRING (Liberty attacks israeli torpedo boat)

1431 [LOG:] WORD PASSED TO STANDBY FOR TORPEDO ATTACK TO STARBOARD. MTB COMMENCED STRAFING STARBOARD SIDE OF SHIP 

>> 1440 [LOG:] MTB'S STANDING AWAY FROM THE SHIP. ONE MTB HAS HULL NUMBER 206-17  [CAPT. McGonagle:] Immediately after the ship was struck by the torpedo, the torpedo boats stopped dead in the water and milled around astern of the ship at a range of approximately 500 to 870 yards.

A FULL 9 minutes of attacking the Liberty - in responce to being shot at. and two torpedos out of six I understand.

This is from a site made by two conspiricy theory crewmen. (who have issues with keeping their story strate - ref. camera etc)

the Liberty fired upon the gun boarts?
Bastards.

Even more reason to murder all Israelis. They fired upon gun boarts, not gun boats. A "boart" is not just a regular sea-faring vessel, but rather a combination of a "boat" and "art", making this a double tragedy.

what are you doing here with the sheep? Get back into your pen.

Thank You. I believe I will. Oink.

really hate the guy, do you?
that's funny.
He still dances to your guy's tune even if you bray so loudly.
He won't touch certain subjects as in the lethal shadow government. The correct structure of power.

"lethal shadow government."


There's a keeper.

Another gem from sheepdog's world of fear.

I would like to discuss this further, but I have an appointment with the local marina to look at some boarts to add to my floating art collection.

just how far CAN you roll your eyes? Does the salve help?

I can roll mine far enough to see Pink Ployd in concert before Roger Waters left the group.

Oops! I meant Pink Floyd. Even my eyesight when I roll my eyes are out of focus.

I would appreciate it if you would not drag an otherwise fine and innocent Pink Floyd into this sad discussion of your neurosis.

Thank You.

yes and that's supposed to effect this wiener caught in the wringeresqe
situation somehow.
All tides change and it cannot be managed. It just happens.
The brutality is coming out and the public doesn't like violence.
Something about wanting to live in peace.
Whipping up terror is becoming more difficult to a growing measure of the population. These curtains you keep pulling are torn open.

Come in here, dear boy
Have a cigar
You're gonna go far
You're gonna fly
You're never gonna die
You're gonna make it if you try
They're gonna love you.

I've always had a deep respect
And I mean that most sincerely
The band is just fantastic
That is really what I think
Oh, by the way
Which one's Pink?

And did we tell you the name of the game, boy?
We call it riding the gravy train.

You have to call for someone to stop the machine and help you pull it out before it gets...serious.

You reached for the secret too soon,
You cried for the moon.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Threatened by shadows at night,
And exposed in the light.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Well you wore out your welcome
With random percision,
Rode on the steel breeze.
Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
Come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!

I'm humbled by the accolades
thank you for your support.

You got to be crazy
Gotta have a real need
Gotta sleep on your toes
And when you're out in the street
You've got to be able to pick out the easy meat
With your eyes closed
Then moving in silently, downwind, and out of sight
You've got to strike when the moment is right without thinking

Then after a while
You can work on points for style
Like the club tie
And a firm handshake
A certain look in the eye
And an easy smile

You've got to be trusted
By the people that you lie to
So that when they turn their backs on you
You'll get the chance to put the knife in.

(Really great guitar solo by David Gilmour)

"I'm humbled by the accolades
thank you for your support."

Ha Ha, Charade you are.

You've got to stem the evil tide
And keep it all on the inside
Sheepdog, you're nearly a treat
Sheepdog, you're nearly a treat
But you're really a cry.

"After more than two hours of unremitting assault, the Israelis finally halted their attack. One of the torpedo boats approached the Liberty. An officer asked in English over a bullhorn: "Do you need any help?" The wounded commander of the Liberty, Lt. William McGonagle, instructed the quartermaster to respond emphatically: "Fuck you."

If only they had a "boart", they could have said "Fuck you AND your lousy art!"

Sheepdog isn't discussing the USS Liberty either...

if the shoe fits...

yes, it triped into flame. My bad.
It must have been the caught under the fence remark.
kinda sounds like it huh?

"It must have been the caught under the fence remark."

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

Fresca the troll hates...

And tries to get us to hate too, even tries to assign hate where none exists..

Fresca's favorite group to hate are the Palestinians, where he often refers to them as "sub-human" and so on..

In order to show exactly who he means I'll post a series of shots to show you...

That little American girl is a subhuman Hamas terrorist?

Who knew?

Those terrorists are getting sneakier by the moment.

I was also wondering if you had any pics of maimed and murdered Israeli children. You know, the ones your heroes in Hamas routinely target.

these are the people fresca/nonanarchist/scottie/eddie/etc wants us to hate as "sub-human"

sorry fresca - these are all Palestinian pictures from Palestine of Palestinians (There's some israeli soldiers and some cops too, but no protesters, no americans in any of these shots)

denial is such an ugly thing...

deny again and I'll post the URL to see for yourself..

Post the link.

I have noticed that your are rather reluctant to broach the subject of all the Isareli children that your heroes in Hamas have murdered.

But I understand that so staucnchly defending such a group of SUBHUMAN murderers might be a tad uncomfortable at times. Nevertheless, excellent work at sidestepping the obvious.

How are those new jackboots wearing in?

They deserve the ability to grow up free of the fear brought by those who would kill and maim to impose their will upon others.

Regardless of what flag they hoist or what color, or Religion.

For instance, I consistently deny that Palestinain militants routinely murder Israeli citizens, especially women and children. I wouldn't DARE post pics of those dirty subhuman Jewish pigs being murdered, as they are rightfully getting what they deserve.

I am a Jew-Hating hypocrite.

Tell it like it is, Hex my boy!!

Read what McGonagle himself said above.

By the way my point was to say that the US soldiers fired on the israelis (not entirely unpredictable HOWEVER it was a mistake.
The torpedo boats had not fired yet and McGonagle was perfectly aware that the action was going to cause the torpedo boats to shoot torpedos at his ship (which is why he tried to stop it). the fight lasted two torpedos worth of time in otherwords basically none at all. then the torpedo boats broke off. doesnt sound like they were trying to kill everyone sounds more like they were retaliating for the gun fire.

1.) obviously I didn't post anything about any group being subhuman - we all KNOW what troll spews that

2.) hate never crossed my lips - this is at least the 4'th time I needed to remind about it because of trools putting words in my mouth, and I've went over exactly why I don't hate - in detail

3.) picking a tiny aspect of the attack out of the whole picture of israel doing fly-by's for hours where at one point they even *waved at eachother* by noting *at some point* AFTER the ship had been fired upon and napalmed, a few of the crew fired back using the only weapons they had - machine guns - is a direct attempt to mislead

It should be pointed out the crewmen were even *sunbathing on deck* when the israeli's started attacking

>>picking a tiny aspect of the attack out of the whole picture of israel doing fly-by's for hours where at one point they even *waved at eachother* by noting *at some point* AFTER the ship had been fired upon and napalmed, a few of the crew fired back using the only weapons they had - machine guns - is a direct attempt to mislead

If you are refering to what I said. no it isnt. I am directly adressing a flaw in the information on this site. for example this post refers to the section and I quote.

"But it soon proved impossible, as the Israeli attack boats strafed the rafts with machine gun fire. No body was going to get out alive that way.
After more than two hours of unremitting assault, the Israelis finally halted their attack. One of the torpedo boats approached the Liberty. An officer asked in English over a bullhorn: "Do you need any help?"

I am noting the boats did not attack for 2 hours and if that is not what was meant it should not have been implied. Also the bull horn was not used it was signals (of course, what moron thought it would be?).
The fact that the source doesnt seem to be able to get the details right and implies things that are false puts doubt upon their reliability.

Secondly the plane had attacked them but the boats had not. They had not identified the plane so it was premature to fire on the boats (which they had identified as israeli). The boats attacked in response to the attack on them and then when the liberty stoped firing back ceased their attack these things are more consistant with a mistake than your conspiricy theory.

Of course the fact that they had not identified the plane sheads doubt upon the idea that the pilot had waved at them. It appears that there is at least one person from the liberties crew who is embalishing their story. They seem to be pretending to have seen things such as the bull horn incident or the waving to the pilot that didnt occur according to the ships logs or McGonagle or the other testemony. Of course sometimes this happens in stressful situations partiicularly when there is a book to write.

this contains only the parts of the movie where they are in the war room...

MP3PRO..

"2.) hate never crossed my lips - this is at least the 4'th time I needed to remind about it because of trools putting words in my mouth, and I've went over exactly why I don't hate - in detail "

Simply because you don't have the balls to say it.

Clearly you hate Jews. There's no real question.

One illustration of this is your undying support and lionization of any and all Islamic (or any other sort should it come to pass) terrorism that results in the death of Jews.

The record is clear.

I admit that I hate Islamic terrorists. Your hate hardly requires such an admission. You've loaded the databas with it.

How's the weather there in Belsen-Bergen?

uh...
by fresca Saturday October 04, 2003 05:31 PM
Unless of course you mean the policy of not being an Islamic state.

If that is the policy you are refering to then you are correct. That IS why these animals commit heinous murders against pretty much everyone who doesn't share their belief.
And as far as being a hater. Sure. You bet. I do hate these terrorists like the "paleostinian" cunt who blew up today. To not hate these cowards is to support them.

Israel can do no wrong.
I support their military dictatorship.
I am a zionazi.
I will burn in hell.

> a flaw in the information
> sheads doubt upon the idea


Of course it does - I mean what else could a denialist say ?

And you just explained exactly what I said - using any flaw you can find in order to discredit


and to discredit is the game - as usual



RE: fresca's claim that I hate

> Simply because you don't have the balls to say it.


actually I have balls - balls enough to not live in fear, to not hate because of it. It's YOU who doesn't have the balls to rise above that most primitive and destructive of emotions - hate, as you've admitted (you hate)

It requires no courage to hate - hate is what's left when you HAVE no courage, so my balls should be the furthest thing from your mind. But they're not - you're obcessed with them. They represent something you'll never have, something you'd steal if you could, eh "nerd lover" ?


and so

1.) the word hate never appears in my writings (so you cannot prove I hate)

2.) I've directly specificly confirmed 4 times I don't.

3.) I've explained in specific detail why.

4.) I've reminded the accuser (you) of these facts.


But as usual with fresca, it's "simple" and notice he requires NO PROOF to make any claim he wants - even when the author directly says otherwise and shows why..

Yet no proof is ever good enough, FIOA documents. photographs, backed by video, eyewitness accounts, etc - no proof is ever good enough for fresca blind 17

And when he claims something, *just his word* is supposed to be good enough - even when he has no proof - there is no proof - and the accused directly clearly says he's wrong, even with a rather "deep" explaination of morals to show why.



This is a totally fucked sense of balance, a word game I am NOT PLAYING


I will continue to post PROOF in the form of FOIA and other government documents, photographs, video, eyewitness testimonies, etc..

PROOF

while fresca continues to claim baseless accusations without a shread of evidence at all and PUT WORDS AND THOUGHTS IN PEOPLE'S MOUTHS as "proof"...


You can say I hate until you're green in the face, but we've already been down that path of disbelieving FACTS while at the same time forwarding fantansies as "proof" totally on your word just to waste people's time

no one believes your lies

show PROOF like I do, I only post things I can PROVE.. you running your mouth is *not* proof

God I love dangling you around like a puppet.

I can make you spend hours a day posting and reposting your frantic whinings about your "proof" and all your useless cyber mining.

I actually do enjoy the power I seem to have over you.

Dance little nazi dance. The more time I get you to waste here, the less time you'll have to terrorize some little Jewish kid somewhere, with your racism and hate.

You are easily THE most predictable person to frequent this board.

Ny the way, can you post more pictures of the flag?

>>Of course it does - I mean what else could a denialist say ?

Each piece of evidence either supports or detracts from the credibility of the theory.
if you are saying that a flaw in the evidence adds to the probability of it being true you are obviously an idiot.

>> And you just explained exactly what I said - using any flaw you can find in order to discredit

- I did not say that a flaw proves that the whole argument is incorrect (if that is what you are saying) but it certainly adds weight to the argument that it is generally false, just as proof that parts of it are correct and consistant implies that it might be true.
So it is difficult to understand what your problem is. If its flawed a honest person would want to see those flaws exposed in order to get closer to the truth. however you seem to want them to remain hidden for some reason.

Oh .....you'll play.

Fresca claims these people aren't human - they sure look human to me, with feelings and everything..


The proof stands on it's own - for *everyone* to see - proof is of no use to YOU as you deny all proof.

I post it for two reasons;

1.) to expose the story in question (this happens whether there's trolls around or not, if you have any doubt do a search for "hex anon" on the glogal IMC)

2.) to show people how wrong and lacking in proof you are yourself - the more proof I post the more contrast it reveals


As long as I stick to posting proof and exposing all things israel with FACTS, it's a win-win situation for everyone involved

except you

the typing begins and ends where facts start and stop

you hate facts - hate exposure

as long as I always include something factual I can't go wrong !

One can'thelp but notice, Hex, how your FACTS about Israel always focus on the negative.

Never on the positive.

Like Magen David workers at the scene of a suicide bombing, handling the remains of the suicide bomber with reverence equal to that with which they handle the remains of Israelis.

Like emergence services treating Palestinian wounded with the same care as Israeli wounded.

Nope...we NEVER see anything like that from you.

Why is that, Hexie boy?

Hmmm...I wonder.

Similarly, we never see you post anything at all critical of Palestinians. Remember the two Israelis that were literally torn limb from limb at (and by) the hands of the Palestinian captors? The guys had just made a wrong turn, is all they were guilty of. Well, that and being Jews, of course.

Where was your finely-tuned sense of moral outrage then, Hexie boy?

I wonder indeed...

> outrage

outrage is an emotion - something between anger and hate.

As to "why" - just to piss people like you off - WITH THE FACTS

now in that light when you realize the proof does double-duty of repelling you AND exposing the issue (and showing your lies too come to think of it)

all things that negatively impact your "fun" trolling here and your stated goals of "having fun watching those lefists squirm under the weight of my facts" as you put it.

who's squirming now ? who's laughing now ? how "fun" is it seeing all the issues you want hidden exposed and proven with pictures and facts ;

1.) the israeli's treatment of the Palestinians
2.) israel's involvement in 9-11
3.) israel's manipulation of the media
4.) the ties to israel to the "war" in Iraq
5.) israel's spying on it's "allies" - mostly us
6.) israel's rampant racism towards all Muslims
7.) israel's hatred of anything not israel

(hence my meme "all things israel")

I see a few reasons to CORRECT the INBALANCE using NON-EMOTIONAL efforts of simply EXPOSING using FACTS

but any emotions I have at all - and they aren't hate - are for the Palestinians and all Muslims

I see these people as just like you or me - just everyday ordinary people trying to live thier lives and be happy - pawns caught in the same twisted sick games we are (our "leaders" out of control, starting the wars, controlling the media, spending our taxes on death and war)

the only things that stands apart from this common problem are *people like you* who willingly surrender to the propaganda & lies which are taliored to appeal to the most base animal instincts of fear & hate

The propaganda works because it provides the easyst, lazyst no-thinking-for-yourself-required simplistic answers.

looking up from the black pit of your fear & hate you see the rest of us - unreachable and isolated

you therefore simply wish to *pull us down there with you* so you can slowly torture us to death in oder to derive pleasure from the suffering of others

to get us to start sliding down the steep slippery sides of your own little private pit of hate, you must "hook" us and reel us in using barbs of vile angery hating lies and other emotion triggers

this is why you constantly go around spewing hate and especially go around *accusing us of hating too*

if you can gain a foothold of emotion you can then "make us" fall into your hate pit with you where you will win because you're better at hating - have been at it all your life - so you can tear us to pieces reducing us to mush (liquidfy) which you play with like a mental patient playing with his own excrement

there's no doubt that you can out-hate and be meaner and more cruel and cold - this is where you really shine

I only wonder how many people you need to chew up to feel satisfied - or is it an endless boundless hate ?

If all the 1 billion people you hate and wish dead were suddenly gone tomorrow, I bet you would turn your hate to some other group - Hispanics, Indians, Asians

Then with them gone too you would turn on US - as long as there's someone - some group for you to hate, it doesn't actually matter who or why

the dysfunction is IN YOU

the Muslims are merely an excuse to lend justification to your all consuming hatred. A cheap cover...

Ah, waking up to another fine rambling five minutes hate from Herr Hex.

I don't even read them anymore. Just alot of double spaced rationaliztions for hatred of Jews and Israel combined with glowing endorsements of terrorists.

By the way, are you an arab by any cahnce?

> I don't even read them anymore

"you'll play"

hmmmm

Don't you find it rather difficult to "prove the leftists wrong and watch them squirm" when you don't even read what lies they are saying to prove wrong ???

hello

are we laughing yet ?

you do realize of course that *everyone else* is getting an earfull about what makes you tick

you know - exposure..

It's in your best interest to defend your position if you wish people to believe you

but you can't - you're not smart enough. And besides - it's all true - the FACTS repel again I see..

If it were lies it would be effortless to prove wrong - no ?

I do think you hit on a very important fundamental point:

That those who scream the loudest about being hated are the very ones who are most often consumed by their own hatred of others.

They try to point the finger away - "don't look at me he's the one that hates".

It would be funny if it wasn't so sick.

I think you need to do a little reading yourself there Todd.

"Don't you find it rather difficult to "prove the leftists wrong and watch them squirm""

That's not one of my lines.

i love to watch fresca and nonanarchist squirm around LA IMC all day long. It's amazing that these TROLLS hate us so much, yet spend hours upon hours visiting with us. How sweet. They must really care about us.

I hope you give equal time to your fellow right-wing conspirators because we wouldn't want you in an unbalanced lifestyle, having to share your rhetoric and disinformation with only us.

I love to watch Sheepdog, krankyman, KPC, Diogenes(or what other alias' he's using now), Stephen DeVoy, and others squirm around LA IMC all day long. It's amazing that these MORONS hate us so much and want us to go away, yet spend hours upon hours visiting with us and answering our spam instead of just ignoring us. How sweet. They must really care about us.

I hope you give equal time to your fellow left-wing/anarchist conspirators because we wouldn't want you in an unbalanced lifestyle, having to share your rhetoric and disinformation with only us.

we all have our fans...
give this hairy butt a kiss.

this incident is illustrative in a very important way for instruction to the sedated population of the awareness of how our sacred trust, our
youth, is being squandered for evil of a blythe and banal class of blood thirsty, ever hungry parasites and their enablers..

Havent checked on the indymedia website for some time now....interesting to see that "fresca" is STILL calling anyone who disagrees with him a NAZI.
ROFL!!
I guess thats the brunt of his argument though.
Pretty sad.
His viewpoints exchanged for the "we-can-do-no-wrong" Israelli government are quite similar to many historical fascist regimes worldwide.
Of course, he never bothered to check the other sides argument.
The occupation is quite similar to the United States "Indian Removal Acts"
Of course, he has know knowledge of this....
But what really gets me laughing
is that the tactics and blind allegance of the Israelli extremists are quite similar to the countries of the Axis powers of World War 2.
Whats that you said fresca?

Hitler removing the Jews from Germany was wrong,
Israel removing the Palestinians from israel is right?

Hitler invading countries around Germany was wrong,
Israel invading surrounding lands in right?

Quick, type fast, show us your hypocracy.

*******
Say the "Hitler argument " is defunct.
Yet you will run to bring up the "hitler argument" when calling your opponents "neo-nazis"

you are a sad little man.
i feel sorry for you.

Hate you?

No. Whatever gave you that impression?

Projecting a bit, are we?

No, why would I hate a group of people who provide me with so much entertainment?

I couldn't hate a self-described anarchist. At most, I could only pity him.

"interesting to see that "fresca" is STILL calling anyone who disagrees with him a NAZI. "

Au contraire mon farire!

I have only referred to three people as such since I've come here. And that was rather hyperbolically. All three showed over and over agin their utter contempt and hope for the end of Isarel and the Jews within.

Surely there are many more than just three anti-Israel people here. New X, KPC, Meyer...I don't believe I have ever called any of these nazi's.

So, I guess you're just wrong OR you've only read posts I've made to certain people.

By the way, in as much as it's almost expected to call anyone even slightly conservative "facist" around here, I think you've shown a decided prejudice in your views.

I forgive you.

> Hitler removing the Jews from Germany was wrong,
Israel removing the Palestinians from israel is right?

Hitler invading countries around Germany was wrong,
Israel invading surrounding lands in right?




I'd like to congradulate fresca (Jerry Lawson) for his originality (and no I'm not Todd but that's an ok name if you wish to use it)


> Hate you?
No. Whatever gave you that impression?
Projecting a bit, are we?


"Nuke Hex"
"I'd like to shoot Hex"
"Death to all leftists"
"All leftists should be shot"

are we playing lying games yet ?



> I could only pity him.

If Jerry ruled the world one can't help but wonder exactly what he'd actually do to us "leftists".. I already said what I would do to him - nothing, I would tell him I'm letting him go so he wouldn't even worry about it and do so right away. (the telling him part is considered "heads up" info like in 2010 where the Russians wake up Dr. Floyd and the first thing she says to him is "nothings wrong, your government wanted us to wake you"

If I was asleep or otherwise helpless or out of touch or control (like Jerry tied up or locked down in a jail cell in the example I used) the very first thing I would start worrying about is what's going to happen to me - which means the first question he would want answered is that - so that's the first thing I would say to him - "hey, I'm letting you go right now" this is to ease his mind (it would be a form of mental torture to do anything less - no ?)

Even under those most extreme circumstances (not very likely but possible, like say there's an accident and he's trapped or something) where I could afford to not give a damn at all, I could just leave him there to die or do anything I wanted to him...

I really *can't* afford it as *a single human life is more valueable than all the treasures in the universe* - even his.

and no thoughts - no thinking about it is required either, I would just do it automaticly. Telling him I'm letting him go is simply a comfort to ease his mind while he's waiting for me to unlock or untie him..

*Because that's what I would hope another human would do for me if I was in his shoes* no matter who they are or what they stand for. And again I would want to know this right away too so my imgination wouldn't start running away and stressing me out. So if the captor was at all friendly, he would say so just to ease my mind.

And there you have it - I'm somewhat friendly even to people you would think I should hate, and have standards about humane treatment that apply to everyone.

It's not dangerous for even people like him to be around me because *I'm not a threat to anyone* and in fact will try to help you, even be slightly friendly and ease your mind if I can. And always honest and dependable..

Now perhaps fresca/nonanarchist (whatever he's calling himself at the moment) can explain *just where this hate you keep accusing me of fits into this picture* and specifically explain how *my morals as above applied to Palestinians and Muslims as just human beings too* become "hate" towards the people to seem to hate them, namely israeli's and people like him who say "death to all Muslims" and so on..



As you can see when you see the full extent of my values hate is impossible as there's nowhere hate has any use or fits in - towards anybody. So it's very insulting and disrespectful for you to accuse me of hating as I'm totally opposite of hate, of how, what and why people hate.

Hate is simply the result of fear, a fear based on not trusting and assuming people are out to harm you.. But fear is based on ignorance - of not knowing what other people are really like or what they would do in situations (as above examples) where you could be hurt or killed.

Just behind fresca's wall of hate you can actually smell the fear, it leaks out through his choice of words and his train of thought. His value system is fear driven...

Pity is an emotion above hate but it's still negative - who would you want to pity you ? Pity is a put-down. As much time as he spends here (as an unwanted troll - not like us regular IMC patrons) he really should have better attitudes than only pity. Think how easy it would be for me to pity him for example, but pity doesn't help things - it's not a constructive emotion.

Emotions are not required at all to have discussion on this level.

The values I've covered regarding this subject (hate, fear, what being human means) involve no emotion - why should they - I don't know any of the people here - there's nothing to get emotional about (I reserve emotions for people I know)

When a person is used to tacking "emotional baggage" to everything they deal with, it's difficult for them to imagine dealing with things any other way, so when the subject is negative it's only natural they associate emotions like hate to them..

When to a more enlightened person *no emotions are needed at all*, so hate is obviously a no brainer..

Hex. Seriously. What the hell are you trying to say?

And why is it you think my name is Jerry Lawson?

I somehow missed that whole revelation.

Please explain.

Your obsession with hate is getting a bit creepy.

fresca > nonanarchist > daveman > "J" > Jerry > Jerry Lawson

here-(and boards where IP is shown)--LGF--IMC--LGF--Jerry's old blogs

I directly traced daveman/J to J on LGF, where "Jerry" appears and the blogs in question are mentioned.

Then a general search also confirmed the 2 blogs.
Reading both blogs in thier entirety revealed the exact same details fresca leaked ;

retired or close to, military reservist who'se never seen combat yet roots for other's to do so

same part of the country (eastern seaboard)

same general job description (sits on his ass all day)

and most importantly (as revealed by his old blogs) exact same attitudes about the specific issues he brings up himself on here, LGF and the global IMC

same level of technical background (very little) too..

everything matches - some aspects cross-match in up to 3 ways (here, LGF, his blogs)

Like kobe, you left too many droppings and a trail back to your older days when you used your real name.

I did an extensive search on "Jerry Lawson" - there's several others's with the same name that had to be weeded out... Your background and interests gave you away.

You weren't careful enough to cover your tracks back to the old days where you freely used your full name - the key part of the trace was LGF posts

"Scottie" appears to be Scott Danahy as well (I've only just started investigating him)

I'm digging dirt on all LGF'ers including charles the perv

As for me you can dig all you like but you will NEVER see my real name because I never used it - I've been anonymous since day one and the places I started out at don't exist anymore. I will continue to expose people like you however

Why you ask ?

What's this "obsession" I have ?

It's LGF's tactics turned around - this is what THEY spend thier time doing, trying to uncover and expose "leftists", trying to find out who they are, where they live, etc

I see it going on all the time - as soon as some person or web site is on LGF's radar screen the very first thing they do is work to expose and uncover the person's identities - while trying (poorly I might add) to hide thier own - just like you'all do on here - like kobe does.

So since I'm anon from the get go, and you have no chance at all to uncover MY identity, I can turn the tables and work to expose YOU while remaining safely anonymous.

Anti-LGF, using the same dirty tactics LGF uses against the *people I support*.

After 2 years of kobe and DeVoy games, kobe is gone, even after he promised to "post here everyday to prove he can".

The new evidence of his death threat to Davis combined with banning by IP seems to have done the trick.

So much for his "expertise"...

So much for his innocence too (if he really was innocent he would have no concern at all about what I posted and *would still be here*)

If he really was an expert he would have no problem posting here with something as minor as his IP banned

This shows he can't even switch proxies effectively.

Now with all working proxies at IMC's fingertips, his available pool of proxies to use have been reduced 99 percent too - and anyone else who tries to abuse proxies.

and this hate thing - we've been over this 3 times now, you're going circular on me again (spin cycle)

maybe fresca can show us where kobe's daily post "to prove he can" is because I can't find them - even in the hidden comments..

Uh, okay so you've told us all of your obsession with daveman but how did I become part of this.

None of the elements you've mentioned have anything to do with me.

What an idiot.

On second thoughts, give him hell :)

I don't post much here any more, I just read it and laugh!

I'll put it simply - either you are Jerry and these other handles as indicated by the IP's on boards where they are shown - or

You are exact *clones* that speak, spell, say and feel exactly the same way...

My data strongly suggests Jerry is posting AS a half dozen handles and until I see any indication otherwise that's what I'm going to treat you as since you are clones otherwise anyway.

And there IS a *direct line of evidence* from "J" to Jerry Lawson - you gave the info away yourself on LGF in older threads.

Posting as multible handles IS an openly stated tactic as well. And the cadence also strongly suggests it - at the very least *you are in direct and close contact with eachother* and are acting in concert - this has been shown over & over again, just as above "normal rational person" pops in out of the blue head first right into the on-going discussion *just when needed* to play your game of there being more trolls (and thus support) than there really is.

A study of the *cadence alone* over time statisticly proves it. Then there's the IP's - you're all posting from the *same house* - you're all using the *same proxy*, YOU ALL SAY THE SAME THING.

*At best* clones posting in concert, "working" the newswire as "tag-teams"..

At worst Jerry - posting as half a dozen handles..

(as he stated he was doing - bragged about it matter of fact)

Oh brother!

what a nutjob

Hex, you took the bait, you bit, and you nearly swallowed the whole damn boat!!!!

You are no fun anymore.

LMAO at Hex

"My data strongly suggests "

Your "data". What's that? A bunch of soiled Big Chief writhing tablets hidden under your bed from "the man". I'll bet you've filled dozens of them with your "investigations".

What a fucking goof.

> *At best* clones posting in concert, "working" the newswire as "tag-teams"..

Why? Remember, IMC in its entirety has ~2,000 visitors each day. Why would any group of "clones posting in concert" care enough about IMC to do anything like this??

I assume that the other non-whackos here are like me: just regular ole people who stumbled upon this site (in my case, from a link on drudgereport last spring) and get a kick out of exposing your intellectually-hollow and/or paranoid nonsense for what it is.

Dagny, Dagny, Dagny. Now you've gone and got yourself all tangled up in hex's "supertroll" fantasy.

I hate to tell you this but you are now simply part of the larger "clone" mind.

Hex's data can prove this.

DISTRACTION 101

our lession for today children is how to ignore the USS Liberty (nothing to say, "I don't even read") but change the subject to what lying games I'm playing (a free for all, all trolls invited to jump in now out of the blue)


> a kick out of exposing your intellectually-hollow and/or paranoid nonsense

spin cycle

FACTS and PROOF are posted time after time and you withdraw from them, then come back later and say ;

"intellectually-hollow and/or paranoid nonsense"

as if the proof was never posted....

the old time sink game of denial and lies at all costs, the only subjects you want to have conversations about are non-intellectual void of facts flamewars and trollbait - which is why youre here now while earlyer further up the thread where FACTS are posted you had *nothing to say - no "laughing" or anything - no comment at all on the subject..

and what discussion you do jump on is *not important* (which troll handle game am I playing right now) - now that's earth shattering !

cadence tells all

Hex and his data has advantages!

It means I can post anything I want to and because I am a sub personality of someone else then they take the rap even though I am not and what I post is by me and not by the person that Hex thinks is me even though I may agree with the person or persons unknown that may post the same sort of posts I do it does not mean that they am I or I am they or the other way round!!!

In a nutshell....

Hex, there may be more than one person that thinks you are nuts...

There may be more than one person who fights anarchy.

There may be more than one person who believes in America and supports the elected government.

There may be more than one person that does the above without payment because that is what they believe in, just like you spout your crap free of charge.

Thank you for being you. Stupid paranoid assholes like you Hexie make me feel that I ain't really nuts compared to you!

> Hex, there may be more than one person that thinks you are nuts...
> Stupid paranoid assholes like you Hexie


ah the ad hoc is so sweet !

but the emotion is giving you away as well as the cadence...

as long as we're talking about you or some persona you've become this hour you're just full of - words


but all this troll chatter magicly dies away when facts are posted.

the only reason why the idea that it's just you playing games *would* piss you off is because IT'S TRUE, if it was baseless you would be LAUGHING IT OFF


"you are nuts / stupid paranoid asshole"

this isn't laughing...

and where's kobe's daily post to "prove I can still post here" ???

How does OCT 15'th apply now, when *kobe is nowhere to be seen* ?

hey - want to take a guess at who's laughing now - 'specially after posting all known good proxies to give IMC a quick easy reference to see if the troll IP is on it ? For instant banning - you are but a paste away from virtually no proxies to use at all.

Where's kobe's daily posts to prove what an "expert" he is ?

Proxy this, proxy that, ban this, ban that.....

It got you where?... It got you laughed at big time.

Now, don't you have some cables to make???

My shift finishes in about 3 minutes.

See you guys in 8 hrs.

> It got you where?...

um - kobeless ?

You really are convinced everything you say is true, don't you?

That's too funny!

I have a theory why you hate (oops, sorry; you're too evolved for hate) err, dislike LGF so much.

You posted your ususal brand of nonsense there and promptly got your behind handed to you in bleeding chunks. Right? How DARE they not immediately fall to their knees and accept everything you say...BECAUSE YOU SAY IT! No, you gor your butt fact-checked and you took it personally, didn't you?

Remind me someday to look through the LGF archives for evidence of your bleeding chunk-style butt. Should be entertaining.

Anyway.

"fresca > nonanarchist > daveman > "J" > Jerry > Jerry Lawson

here-(and boards where IP is shown)--LGF--IMC--LGF--Jerry's old blogs

I directly traced daveman/J to J on LGF, where "Jerry" appears and the blogs in question are mentioned."

Never heard of J. Never heard of Jerry, either.

Now, for the question I keep asking and which you keep ducking (you dont' want to dance, remember?)

What's my IP?

I've repeatedly shown you that my IP is NOT the one you have claimed it is.

So, you gather up all the troll IPs, and post them here in one spot.

Do it, Hex. You have the technology. You have the know-how. But do you have the guts?

As for your recurring fantasy of us trolls being the same person, I ask you again: What are you afraid of? This wishful thinking is nothing more than whistling in the dark. You simply cannot fathom that there is more than one person who disagrees with you, can you? Nope. Gotta be some dark, sinister plot involved. That's a common theme here at good ol' CT Central.

Now, Hex, be a good little boy and post the trolls' IPs, and tell me what you're afraid of.

It's okay; I won't tell.

Congrads Hex come over for tea some time. Bring a plate please.
But your making the assumption that we have been going out of out way to hide our identity like you.

> So since I'm anon from the get go, and you have no chance at all to uncover MY identity.

- My first thought was to give some ideas around that then I thought.. what would we do with your name anyway? I'm afraid from your picture you just aren't that sexy hexy, stalking would just be sad.

It seems hexy has despite the pleeding of other anarchists around the web declared me to be independant of the super troll otherwise known as "J, the super troll".
Is that confirmed by the IP's hex?

FROM: George J Tenet
TO: LA-IMC Surveillance and Disinformation Team
RE: Dodging a bullet

----------------

Nice work, people. As we discussed in the staff meeting Monday morning, many media outlets printed the truth about the USS Liberty. Fortunately, the story seems to have died -- no doubt because of your relentless attacks on LA-IMC. It looks like we have dodged another bullet. But maintain maximum awareness. These bicycle messengers and 15-year old punk rockers are very formidable opponents. Their ability to expose and ruin our Neo-con plans to destroy the planet are second to none.

I long for the good old days... The USSR was such a piece of cake compared to these LA-IMC geniuses.

Looks like we will hve to divert another few million from the FBI to the LA.indymedia diversion team.. money well spent I say.

FROM: LA-IMC Surveillance and Disinformation Team
TO: George J Tenet
RE: re: Dodging a bullet

Sir, we're particularly concerned with two of these imc'ers: "Hex anon w/encryption" and "adrian more".

Hex, as we call him, seems to be on the verge of some breakthrough hacking our IPs, possibly using homemade perf boards and RS-232 cables. While many would think this technology hopelessly out-of-date, it's possible he has made use of scalar weapons technologies stolen in the CIA hack-in three years ago. It seems his plan revolves around spending endless hours searching old blog archives and comparing use of language. (Sir, if you'll remember, I recommended Chomsky be eliminated. His remarkable insights into linguistics have provided these LA-IMC geniuses with a weapon of unimaginable power!) Awaiting your approval for Operation Vituperous Limpet to solve out little Hex problem.

As for adrian more, his powers of observation and his keenness of intellect are remarkable. He has nearly tied the "Deuteronomy-Mein Kampf-Zionism" triad together. The threat posed by the revelation of this information cannot be understated. More is completely immune to our atttacks, and seems to be equipped with a "thought shield", which protects him from any sort of evidence contrary to his ideas (Note to Tech Section...investigate "thought shield-scalar weapons" link...Hex and More working together?) More is getting close to the truth, sir. I request permission to implement Operation Bowel-loosening Needle immediately to eliminate this threat.

Say "Hi!" to the family, sir.

nonanarchist

Uhh, ignore the previous post.

Hit the wrong button.

Hat's off to you two.

The memos are hilarious.

Right up ther with "Operation Pinnochio".

I'm still laughing.

Proud to be part of the hive.

no - I've never posted on LGF, why would I ?

I do ghost it though looking for dirt on LGF members

and no I'm not Todd, you have 0 chance of finding out who I am

As to posting IP's and "proving" to your satisfaction - that's impossible, no proof is ever good enough (spin cycle)

Patting yourself on the back ("fresca compliments "nonanarchist") is transparent to anyone who's been following your posts - I've confirmed this by IP on boards that show them by analysing over 1,500 posts with IP's

"stupid arab" = "don't ride with arabs" = "J" = "K" = "capt america" = "fresca" = "nonanarchist" = "daveman" ="normal rational person" = "max" = Jerry Lawson

more handles than I care to keep track of actually...

as stated you change handles as often as a cross-dresser changes dresses.

I'm not the only one that knows this

And it matters NOT what you say - a total and complete liar who gets his rocks off by lying and getting away with it - you think being able to constantly lie makes you better than others.

Nothing - absolutely nothing you say is the truth

all attempts to draw people into your sick twisted game have been exposed and several people know about it too - not just me.

I only added my data to confirm it

The claim (cover) of "you just can't stand the idea of many people agreeing and so insist it's one person" is simply another lie. Because the cadence and IP's show otherwise, plus it's not just me saying so...

Bush admirer is kobe

and that's why he's banned

no if's and's or but's about it

while your wasting your time trolling and spamming I've been busy digging more dirt and boy do I have a shitload now !

We'll start our factual troll repelling expose' by revisiting the USS Liberty ;

"Technically, the Israeli aircraft had home-grown fire control systems vastly superior to their American equivalents, and could be relied on to shoot down the US jets swiftly and with the minimum of fuss. In public relations terms the Israelis would later claim it was a case of "mistaken identity", twist a few arms and grease a few palms in Washington, and the whole affair would be swept under the carpet. Once again the Israeli Cabinet had a sound precedent for this, in the form of the USS Liberty.


On 8 June 1967, during the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the unarmed American intelligence ship USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes by Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded. Despite the proven fact that the USS Liberty was far offshore in international waters, and flying a bright, clean American flag, Israel insisted it was all a terrible case of mistaken identity, which it most certainly was not. Israel attacked the USS Liberty in an attempt to 'blind' the American intelligence ship and prevent it forwarding details of Israel’s pre-emptive strikes to the Pentagon.

The Jewish-American Lobby went to work with a vengeance in Washington, twisting arms and handing out pieces of silver. So effective was the lobbying that the murder of thirty four American sailors on the unarmed USS Liberty went largely unnoticed by the public, and the media was predictably silent on the matter. Though the Liberty’s Captain William Loren McGonagle was later awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for conspicuous gallantry and intrepedity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty, it was presented to him quietly at the Washington Navy Yard, rather than the White House as is customary.

American politicians had bent over backwards to avoid embarrassing the murderers of the thirty-four American sailors. The Israeli Cabinet thus knew full well that any American "collateral damage" during Operation Shekhinah could be swept under the carpet in exactly the same way.

Israel is not America’s ally, a fact shown graphically back in 1967 by savage repeated attacks on the unarmed USS Liberty in international waters.

Even after the crew abandoned ship, Israeli warships closed on the Liberty and poured machine gun fire into the crowded life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors were being massacred in cold blood, a rescue mission by US Sixth Fleet carrier aircraft was mysteriously aborted on orders from the White House.

The White House and Congress immediately accepted Israel's explanation and let the matter drop. Israel later paid token reparation of US $6 million, but surviving Liberty crewmembers would not be silenced. They kept demanding an open inquiry and tried to tell their accurate story of premeditated attack. Israel's government worked behind the scenes to thwart these efforts, going so far as having American pro-Israel groups accuse Liberty's survivors of being 'anti-Semites' and 'Israel-haters.'

Verbatim Quote from the Talmud, Judaism’s Most Holy Book:

"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the Goyim (any and all non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God." Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772

Wow.

You got us (me) there, boy.

"As to posting IP's and "proving" to your satisfaction - that's impossible, no proof is ever good enough (spin cycle)"

Yer spinnin' yerself, Skippy. I'd be happy to see a tiny shred of "proof"...which you haven't shown yet.

"Patting yourself on the back ("fresca compliments "nonanarchist") is transparent to anyone who's been following your posts - I've confirmed this by IP on boards that show them by analysing over 1,500 posts with IP's

"stupid arab" = "don't ride with arabs" = "J" = "K" = "capt america" = "fresca" = "nonanarchist" = "daveman" ="normal rational person" = "max" = Jerry Lawson

more handles than I care to keep track of actually..."

This tells me two things:

1. You're basing your conclusion on...what, exactly? Sounds to me like you're reaching a conclusion, and then looking for facts to fit it. Sloppy research, Hex, sloppy. But very typical for your type.

2. You have WAY too much time on your hands.

Quick question: How am I/we supposed to keep track of all these very distinctive writing styles and personalities? Dozens? The only thing we have in common is a desire to ridicule you and your kind...and this last post of yours is just BEGGING for it.

"And it matters NOT what you say - a total and complete liar who gets his rocks off by lying and getting away with it - you think being able to constantly lie makes you better than others.

Nothing - absolutely nothing you say is the truth"

No one cries "Liar!" so loud as a liar himself.

"The claim (cover) of "you just can't stand the idea of many people agreeing and so insist it's one person" is simply another lie. Because the cadence and IP's show otherwise, plus it's not just me saying so..."

Cadences? No, they don't. Very distinctive writing styles. IP's? I dunno about other boards, because I only post on here and LGF regularly. And you can't get to the IPs on either one.

Quick, Hex! What's my IP?

"Bush admirer is kobe

and that's why he's banned

no if's and's or but's about it"

I doubt it. Like I said, very distinctive writing. But you can't see it; all you can see is 2 people who disagree with you (and ridicule you), so they become one in your mind.

Hexie, ol' boy, you're just too, too funny.

But you can't see that, either.

we need to talk so join me on any thread if you will.

i'll post a special post on la today for you and all those who really care to battle these nazi trolls.

watch out cuz among the tactics employed by these bastards there's the handle-hijacking as you know.

You mean like the guy below who was imping BA? or our resident "faker" who posts under the names of conservatives?


---------------------------------------------------------------

I'm here
by Bush Admirer Wednesday October 29, 2003 12:08 PM
I'm still here - just busy at work these days and haven't had much time to post here.
The IMC thought police have been following up every time I post here and blocking whichever anonymous proxy I'm using. It's an irritation but not a real problem.
It doesn't appear that they're blocking any of the other mainstream moderates like Fresca, Nonanarchist, Barney, or Max. Guess they're trying to make an example out of me.


the real me
by Bush Admirer Wednesday October 29, 2003 12:15 PM
No, i havent been fighting the war in Iraq, that i am usually the head cheerleader for.
I've been praising my buddy GW on his supression of information related to 911.
You know---the info that Congress had to supoena from him.
Looks like the Federal Deficit will be about 500 billion dollars this year.
Thats OK though, i wont mind giving my money to support this war, hell, its only about $2000 per every US man , woman, and child....
But Its worth it!!!


Impersonation
by Bush Admirer Wednesday October 29, 2003 12:41 PM
The post immediately above is not mine. Impersonation gets tiresome on this board. It's immature and it's boring.


^^^^^TROLL ALERT
by Bush Admirer Wednesday October 29, 2003 12:47 PM
I dont know who keeps posting and saying that they are me.....BUT QUIT IT!!!
This moron above me obviously is a piece of shit TROLL.....
This is my handle now...dick brain.
LONG LIVE RUCH LIMBAUGH!!!

HEX I'M ON YOUR SIDE
by adrian more Wednesday October 29, 2003 11:35 PM


cyberfighting against da trolls

i think i'm figuring out what you've been trying to do,hex anon w/encryption,and I'd like to let you know i'm fully and squarely on your side in the fight against these goddam judeochristonazi trolls.

first i'd like to give la readers an idea of your precious work by reposting one of your great recent comments:


>>wow - he even failed the no brainer
by Hex anon w/ encryption Tuesday October 28, 2003 12:02 PM


fresca > nonanarchist > daveman > "J" > Jerry > Jerry Lawson

here-(and boards where IP is shown)--LGF--IMC--LGF--Jerry's old blogs

I directly traced daveman/J to J on LGF, where "Jerry" appears and the blogs in question are mentioned.

Then a general search also confirmed the 2 blogs.
Reading both blogs in thier entirety revealed the exact same details fresca leaked ;

retired or close to, military reservist who'se never seen combat yet roots for other's to do so

same part of the country (eastern seaboard)

same general job description (sits on his ass all day)

and most importantly (as revealed by his old blogs) exact same attitudes about the specific issues he brings up himself on here, LGF and the global IMC

same level of technical background (very little) too..

everything matches - some aspects cross-match in up to 3 ways (here, LGF, his blogs)

Like kobe, you left too many droppings and a trail back to your older days when you used your real name.

I did an extensive search on "Jerry Lawson" - there's several others's with the same name that had to be weeded out... Your background and interests gave you away.

You weren't careful enough to cover your tracks back to the old days where you freely used your full name - the key part of the trace was LGF posts

"Scottie" appears to be Scott Danahy as well (I've only just started investigating him)

I'm digging dirt on all LGF'ers including charles the perv

As for me you can dig all you like but you will NEVER see my real name because I never used it - I've been anonymous since day one and the places I started out at don't exist anymore. I will continue to expose people like you however

Why you ask ?

What's this "obsession" I have ?

It's LGF's tactics turned around - this is what THEY spend thier time doing, trying to uncover and expose "leftists", trying to find out who they are, where they live, etc

I see it going on all the time - as soon as some person or web site is on LGF's radar screen the very first thing they do is work to expose and uncover the person's identities - while trying (poorly I might add) to hide thier own - just like you'all do on here - like kobe does.

So since I'm anon from the get go, and you have no chance at all to uncover MY identity, I can turn the tables and work to expose YOU while remaining safely anonymous.

Anti-LGF, using the same dirty tactics LGF uses against the *people I support*.

After 2 years of kobe and DeVoy games, kobe is gone, even after he promised to "post here everyday to prove he can".

The new evidence of his death threat to Davis combined with banning by IP seems to have done the trick.

So much for his "expertise"...

So much for his innocence too (if he really was innocent he would have no concern at all about what I posted and *would still be here*)

If he really was an expert he would have no problem posting here with something as minor as his IP banned

This shows he can't even switch proxies effectively.

Now with all working proxies at IMC's fingertips, his available pool of proxies to use have been reduced 99 percent too - and anyone else who tries to abuse proxies.

and this hate thing - we've been over this 3 times now, you're going circular on me again (spin cycle)

maybe fresca can show us where kobe's daily post "to prove he can" is because I can't find them - even in the hidden comments.. >>.


new readers who've just approached indy - ANY well-attended indy site - will notice in no time how there appears to be a host of fascist posters who seem to have a helluva lotta time on their fuckin' hands -
actually they seem to have ALL the time in the world - to savagely and crassly attack logical critical free and especially antisionist antibush thinking on indy.

it is clearly a worldwide orchestrated campaign whose backers can only be those who benefit from silencing spamming dissent:

the judeochristonazi trimurti that rules da world - busharonblair and their cronies worldwide.

reader notice how no matter what time you log on to la or any given indy site,no matter what day or time of year you'll find such agents provocateurs as:

here on la :

fresca=daveman=nonanarchist=scottie and so on and on with an endless string of self-multiplied monikers.

hex quoted above has chosen a technical approach to try and unmask these bastards who daily circle free thinking on indy like vultures circle their prey.

i have chosen a purely logical approach,based on nearly 2 years of experience on indy on my part - and i have reached exactly th same conclusions as hex:

1.normally i would have nothing against nazis posting on a leftwing site because i'm in favor of freedom and i know that when confronted with logical thinking nazis can only ridicule themselves.

2.normally i wouldn't approve of hex's or my attempts to track down and identify these sobs because i'm in favor of privacy

3.BUT I AM ALSO IN FAVOR OF LEGITIMATE DEFENSE - AND SINCE THEY ARE DOING IT TO US,WE'VE BEGUN TO DO IT TO THEM

4.what they've done to us?
well i'm not just talking about the daily spam harassing on indy.
I'M TALKING ABOUT 6 DEATH THREATS THAT I HAVE RECEIVED FROM THEM IN LESS THAN 2 YEARS - not here on la,on other sites;
I'M TALKING ABOUT THE CONSTANT ATTEMPT TO CAPTURE MY PERSONAL DATA BY POSING AS SUPPORTERS,SENDING ME EMAILS AND ASKING ME TO WRITE TO THEM,AND THEN POSTING MY EMAIL ADDRESS ON INDY IN THE VAIN ATTEMPT TO SCARE ME OFF THE WIRE.
and on and on with the harassment of dissent.

well look what happened to mr buchanan of the new hampshire gazette,gestapoized america has always acted like that.

it is time to react.

i totally agree with hex that the fresca shill must be spamming from new england given the ungodly - for la - hours at which he starts his spam shifts.

i totally agree with hex that he and his colleagues are probably retired psychopats who fit the all-american-bullet-headed profile.

that's because they have nothing to do all day.

thay are probably getting paid,but it could even be that they volunteer if they are retired because thay are true believers in the stars and swastika.

there's probably 2 or 3 of them alternating on indy because 1 single person could not possibly handle the 24/7 wire spamming they are performing.

they may be jews - not that it counts much,but they usually focus on antisionist posts more than anything else,so they are either sonist jews or soinist christian nazis.

it is absolutely necessary that not only few people like hex or meyer london or myself counter these bushiite terrorists - but if you readers have 1 or 2 hours a day to help us rescue indy from fascist spam,and if you think you have debating skills or computer skills that might enable the identification of the pigs and help counter thir spam - then HELP.

because these guys are using death threats as hex has documented too and we gotta make them feel the heat as well.

spreading the word is nothing without the sword.

help us if you will with both - the word of freedom and equality for mankind,and the sword to protect our freedom before thay take whatever's left of it away from us.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK HEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sincerely yours,
adrian more.







add your comments

Get a room.

you don't need a room - you already have one in new england - and it's the same for both since you're one and the same paid bushiite shill.

Where am I in New England.

I need to tell my friends here in LA where I'll be staying.

or do you work from home?

but if you really are in la at this very moment tell our readers what the weather is like without letting any time elapse - i wanna see your anwer in the space of 2 minutes at the most,or game over.

Here in Hollywood it somewhat cloudy (not overcast),

Cooled down a bit. About 60 maybe.

See. So much for internet proof.

"langley maybe?"

delusions of grandeur -- a delusion (common in paranoia) that you are much greater and more powerful and influential than you really are.

i gave you 2 minutes but you took 5 - a sufficient time amount to check an internet weather bulletin and pin it down. test failed.

Oh well.

So where's that put me.

> Yer spinnin' yerself, Skippy. I'd be happy to see a tiny shred of "proof"...which you haven't shown yet.


no that's exactly my point - no proof has ever been good enough, FIOA, gov docs pics video eyewitness accounts

spin cycle - you've been there 3 times now

again it's not you that matter's - it's us




> You're basing your conclusion on...what, exactly? Sounds to me like you're reaching a conclusion, and then looking for facts to fit it.


wrong - 1,500 IP's, 3 boards, 2 IMC's and LGF, plus both your web blogs



> You have WAY too much time on your hands.

I'm good at it - besides I'm digging on charles and company anyway (now that kobe has been taken care of)




> No one cries "Liar!" so loud as a liar himself.


the devil is in the details, check the posts



> Cadences? No, they don't. Very distinctive writing styles. IP's? I dunno about other boards, because I only post on here and LGF regularly. And you can't get to the IPs on either one.


yes, both timing and style *strongly* suggest it's just you, you're not nearly as good at playing different people as you think you are, this being 1/4'th of the entire weight of evidence nonetheless


The IP's I'm refering to are the pakistan board, the motorcycle board and a board in Australia - 1,500 IP's, the IMC confirmations come from this and the global IMC, LGF has (unless you've erased them) direct links to your blogs from a year ago...






> thay are probably getting paid,but it could even be that they volunteer if they are retired because thay are true believers in the stars and swastika.

there's probably 2 or 3 of them alternating on indy because 1 single person could not possibly handle the 24/7 wire spamming they are performing.



It's Jerry Lawson, a retired air force reservist.

Up until last year he was posting all day from base where he had a desk job, he had internet access there so he was jerking off on the job on our tax dollars

he met up with other trolls on LGF and other right-wing boards (NR I think and another that slips my mind)

Now he's retired and spends all day at home doing the same shit - trolling here all day and most of the night

he's the main troll (the super troll)


then there's a few LGF trolls who interchangably use eachother's handles, with kobe (ned lyle) being the source of these handle games - as he plays a half dozen (mostly) kobe -this & that (sbm, duke,wurm, etc) with Jerry and the other LGF trolls *also* using eachother's handles

so we had ned playing mostly kobe's and we've still got jerry playing the one's listed above

Occasionally another LGF troll posts as any one of or any other handle

My data shows that Jerry posts all day and most of the night, with only an approx 8 hour null period

this means that he's totally obcessed with this... he jumps from here to the global IMC to LGF that I monitor

a true shutin super troll

and he's proud at how many people he plays and thinks being able to fool people makes him better than us..

it's 80 percent jerry and 20 percent other LGF trolls according to my analysis




> Where am I in New England.


He's in South Carolina as I recall (I can look it up)

"he jumps from here to the global IMC to LGF that I monitor "

So you monitor IMC, huh?
Who is your paymaster? Aryan Nation? Ba'ath Party?

the only board I ghost (monitor without posting) is LGF


Charles announced that LGF is "friends" with the JDL, that the JDL tracked down the guy who posted that charles is a perv

The JDL is a TERRORIST GROUP with a long history of terrorist bombings and murders in the USA

Several JDL members have been sentenced to life in prison and so on

as far as privacy that's my ethic too - normally I will even protect a person's privacy with the only exception being the person himself engages in violating other people's

JDL and LGF are both such groups and every effort should be expended in exposing and educating the public about their evil

you see jerry's endless hatred, he continued to post hate towards Muslims even after confronted with the pictures of the little girl injured as a direct result of what he supports, then since then he's said something about *shooting babys in the head*..

he's a hopeless case - completely overwhelmed with hate at all levels

according to the totality of his statements, he would kill anybody

considering his age that's pretty shocking - but look at ned, he's even worse !

What's a laugh are you idiots who believe that Indymedia is some territory you feel obligated to protect. This place is nothing but a gathing place for left-wing and anarchist wingnuts and those of us who come here to laugh and belittle them. Anything beyond that isn't worth noting.

and as a confirmation for what you're saying,i'm noticing that ever since your last comment here above,fresca has disappeard from this thread...

but tell me hex,how did you track him down to a retired army reservist from south carolina by the name of jerry lawson?

i mean i don't wanna know all your secrets here of course,but a hint at more methodological details...

man i could give you the nicks of more trolls on other imc sites and you could help me track down those bastards too...

Hey fucker. Track me down. I've been on here for a long time, came over from sf-imc, and no one has a clue as to who I am. Go for it!

I noticed a connection between fresca here and "J" on the global IMC

then I went over several hundred LGF posts and saw the same "J" there as Jerry too...

then I looked back at older LGF posts hoping to see him in his less cautious days giving out personal info - he did, he mentioned 2 blogs he has

in those blogs (mostly 1) he mentions being such

the cross is to older posts on here where he says very close to the same details, plus IP's on the 3 boards show a series of posts from IP's in that area

statisticly that chance that's it's him - Jerry Lawson - is very high over 99.99 percent, while I ruled out all other possible Jerry Lawsons as well by doing a search and checking each one to also check for the possibility that I had the wrong Jerry Lawson or that more evidence would be revealed

a sports jock, a lawyer and a professor, a computer programmer (but an unrelated field to ned, and none of these have any connections to any of the other trolls or IP's that I could find

I did a pretty thorough check - I'm sure it's him and my methods have been proven already with kobe - DeVoy kept flippy-flopping on who he thought kobe was because ned was outsmarting him (mostly because ned was successfully laying false trails and confusing him)

If you stick with consistant methodology and have effective experience in statistics the finger points right at him and keeps pointing as more evidence piles up

same with jerry, there's lots of statistical data pointing right at him

I tried to pin down his physical address and phone number but it's unpublished (it could be had for a fee)

As I recall I pinned to the city but I'd have to check, I was mostly trying to varify it was him

he's just a troll - not a criminal like ned

you said *he* made death threats at you ?

the death threats against me were not made by any of the nicks you researched,but by others.

would you care to help me track them down?

anyway hex,try and find out fresca's address and number and shit and keep it for good measure,this is one hell of a deadly fight here.

tell me hex how does one go from IP to physical address/location of computer etc?

couldn't it be that jerry lawson is just another nick fresca used to use?

adrian

there's several ways to pin down the location

1.) reverse DNS often gives it away
2.) a trace route always leads to the general area
3.) whois gives ISP's which can be crossed to IP
4.) netblock traces show ownership and sometime give general areas as well

you statisticly mush these together to arrive at a "best guess"

this in turn is crossed against any other data you have about physical location

I'm absolutely sure it's Jerry Lawson - a real name not a handle, the "J" is a direct continuation of "Jerry", and Jerry posted his blog URL's, those blogs both say Jerry Lawson, and references are made to his military background - an exact match to what fresca said about himself here a few months ago, this forms a double link, just the two direct mil ref's makes 99 percent alone, then with the jerry/blogs, 99.9 then with the J - IMC to J LGF to jerry - 99.99 percent

there's parallel connections

the web of IP's connects all 3 together...

(the IP's being absolute matches to his writing style crossed across all other posts involved)

I'm not even counting this in the statistic because it's not nearly as sure as the above...

but it matches and add's to the certainty

because ever since you've been posting your stuff about fresca being a retired reservist from south carolina by the name of jerry lawson he's disappeared from all of my threads today...and so has his alternick nonanarchist!!

good job hex!!!!!!!!!!!!

he would disappear for up to days after I posted evidence on him, then show up during cocktail hour running his mouth the rest of the night 'till 3 or 4 in the morning when he ran out of booze

acting like nothing happened...

funny as hell watching these stack up over & over and he's so stupid he couldn't see this blatent pattern

for it to even happen twice is suspisious, he did it 5 or 6 times !

his trying to play different writing styles is *very very lousy* - several people've pinned him on that..

Jerry is better but still quite bad (he's about 3 times better at it then ned)

you know what?

often times i been noticing too that when i log out,and in the time span before i log back in next,the fresca/nonanarch troll takes advantage to spam me while i can't respond,the fuckin' creep.

do you think that they are spying on my browsing?

posted by the troll in the 508 comment in the HEX I'M ON YOUR SIDE thread?

i'm worried they've tracked you down,i hope not...

So basically your saying J is fresca? (because he isn't ALL the other people)
what are you using as your previous IMC post/s to verify against the milblog etc?
And there is one other thing you need to prove that being that J has been stalking people because otherwise it just makes you a freak.

I'll make it easy for you.

I'm in South Carolina.

I have a 2001 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport, gray.

One of my email address is daveman_1@hotmail.com, and I've had it about 3 years.

Let's see, what else can I tease you with...

Married, two children. Active duty Air Force. 12 1/2 years in.

Hobbies? Making fun of you two idiots, getting all het up with your personal conspiracy theory. (Here's a hint: You two aren't nearly important enough to be the target of a conspiracy...except in you own heads.)

One final hint: I've posted here with two handles derived from my name.

Good hunting, whackos!

"do you think that they are spying on my browsing?"

I wonder?

Did it ever occur to you that part of the whole conspiracy, might be that Hex is one in the same as fresca and company?

False confidence and all that?

...that there IS no conspiracy?

Certainly not to members of the Liberal Looney Left, the anarchists who don't realize that anarchy is a stillborn philosophy, Marxists whom history has left gasping in the dust, and socialists who fail to realize that their ideals aren't worth the spit it takes to say them.

It has, however, occured to normal people.

Did it ever occur to anybody that jerry will try anything to throw attention off his name and games being exposed ?

Hexdrian,

Please explain why you, and what you do, are important enough for anybody to seriously care about. In other words, why do you feel that a group of people actively conspire (and are paid to do so) to attempt to discredit what you say.

I look forward to reading your response.

> I look forward to reading your response.

don't

Hex's other personalities (in addition to the superagent about to save the world) include a football hooligan in Wales and a gentle grandmother in North Dakota.

everytime you run your mouth it costs you - excellent pictures of what israel is doing to the Palestinians

That's exactly what you're doing, Hex.

When asked for proof of your allegations, you simply reply "I'm not going to dance" and change the subject.

It is painfully obvious you have nothing to back up your accusations, except your self-described "expertise" in psychobabble.

You're once again confusing your not-so-educated opinion with fact, Hexie, and you don't even know it.

> you have nothing to back up your accusations

spin cycle

The subject is NOT Palestinians. You changed the subject to avoid answering questions...a common cowardly tactic of yours.

The subject is the Liberty.

You know, you have to get over this thing that makes you think whatever you say is the truth.

Just because you say it, don't make it so.

you can see he's unarmed but they shot him anyway

Israel's finest murdering cowards who will blow the brains out of anyone and think nothing of it

he shot this kid in the head with a high velocity bullet the sick bastard, to cause as much brain damage as possible

this goes on constantly and israel wonders why the Palestinians get mad

another kid they lie about and call a "hamas terrorist" to cover their crime

a girl injured by him in his nest

>>Hexdrian,

Please explain why you, and what you do, are important enough for anybody to seriously care about. In other words, why do you feel that a group of people actively conspire (and are paid to do so) to attempt to discredit what you say.

I look forward to reading your response.>>:

1.i am adrian not hex - unless you can prove otherwise of course

2.the worldwide shill orchestration on the part of busharon's terrorists is NOT just about a fellow adrian and a fellow hex - it's about ALL critical antibush antiestablishment thinking on indy and elsewhere

3.and if busharon were not afraid of indy,they wouldn't hire contract spammers like you to spam 24/7.

unless of course you're bill gates' deranged daughter...

Hexdrian,
Thank you for attempting to answer my question. But once again, you simply stated that "shills" are out to discredit you. But you don't explain why these shills would care about *you* and what you do here at IMC. Wouldn't it be more rational for the "shills" to work to discredit people who have a mass audience? (Remember that LA-IMC has a readership of a few hundred people)

max wants to expunge me and you


IMC knows

it's a stupid idea in the first place, but anything to distract I suppose

>>But you don't explain why these shills would care about *you* and what you do here at IMC. Wouldn't it be more rational for the "shills" to work to discredit people who have a mass audience? (Remember that LA-IMC has a readership of a few hundred people)>>:




1.how do you know that imc's readership is such and such?

2.if busharon didn't care about critical thinking on imc,he wouldn't hire you shills - or do we have to buy that rightwinger wackos the likes of you are here 24/7 out of their own pocket?

3.thanx for trying.

> I'm not the only one who wants to expunge you

so all the pure black evil hate is back full force I see

spin cycle

Not that these murders really count, since they are as Hex says, "only Jews"

Hex doesn't believe that his "palestinian" heroes in Hamas ever do this sort of thing. And even if they did, they're just killing Jews anyway.

Nothing gets these two all hot and bothered like shots of more dead and maimed "dirty Jews".

Especially when the murderers are those peace seeking folk of Hamas et.al.

If only we had shots of the average "palestinian" cherring and dancing after EVERY ONE of these atrocities.

These barbarians caught a couple of Israelis and tore them apart WITH THEIR BARE HANDS.

Tonight they're gonna party like it's 1399!

And it cost them their lives at the hands of barbarians.

After all, they're only JOOOS.


They're not human, right, Hex?

...this blood is on your hands, too.

This means you, Hex. You're not as innocent as you'd like to believe.

Any of you guys know what's got the archies/commies/leftists all worked up over the Israel thing this week? This place is inveterately becoming another SF IMC.

How boring.

Can't we discuss something more interesting? How about those tapes of Hussein's henchmen torturing and brutalizing Iraqi citizens?

Remember, they wanted to keep Saddam in power so he could keep doing that kind of stuff.

So they're a little sensitive about it.

Hey, we need to start a "Which IMC'er first claims the tapes are false" pool.

My money's on adrian.

I'm giving odds on KFC, although that hex anon buffoon would just ruin the pool out of spite, I'm sure.

My bad for mentioning those tapes that explicitly show the utter deranged and attrocious malevolence of the Hussein admininstration, in lurid details, complete with whips and chains, that these fifth column leftists wanted to keep in power.

I promise not to mention it again.

It a bit off topic but for every question one has to ask-are the additional facts you provide the actual story.
A lot of people have a vested interest in the most inflamatory reason for any event. The most logical answer though is the one that requires the least amount of unreasonable actions (as any judge would tell you).

Anyway if you have a case of an israeli killing a palistinian without any reason at all (and the apropriate evidence) I am totally behind you in catching and procecuting the soldier (not that I can afford to donate anything to the cause).

"My bad for mentioning those tapes that explicitly show the utter deranged and attrocious malevolence of the Hussein admininstration, in lurid details, complete with whips and chains, that these fifth column leftists wanted to keep in power. "

Yeah, but those whips and chains were American made whips and chains!

Facists!

Yeah, Max, don't you dare mention those tapes that show in loving detail the amputations, the beheading, the whippings with canes, the throwing off the roof of boound soldiers.

Don't you DARE mention any of that stuff that the Left wanted to keep on happening.

It hurts their widdle feewings.

Oh, it won't be Chicken Boy in the pool...although if we had a "Which IMC'er will be the first to spout mindless obscenities" pool, he'd be a foregone conclusion.

Scottie: If you're asking about the photos Iposted, sorry; I forgot the links. The story may be found here: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1061869392009. The photos are from http://inhonor.net/ramlah/. I first heard about it on Little Green Footballs (just to get Hex wound up) at http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=7980. Take that, Hex!

"Anyway if you have a case of an israeli killing a palistinian without any reason at all (and the apropriate evidence) I am totally behind you in catching and procecuting the soldier (not that I can afford to donate anything to the cause)."

Me too, on both counts. All to often, though, the calls for justice are conspicuously aimed at only one side: Israel. Very definite double standards at work in the Middle East.

fresca: Kudos to you for the correct-for-imc-but-incorrect-for-the-real-world use of the word "fascist".

that it warms my heart to see so many intelligent and comical personalities coming here so regularly to make fun of these pitiable leftists.

YOU GUYS ROCK!

Speaking of other weblogs
http://cointelprotool.blogspot.com/
here is a great blog the first one I stumbled across.
he also does http://mckinneysucks.blogspot.com/ otherwise known as "what didnt really happen".

> After all, they're only JOOOS.


let us count the lies ;

1.) Hex's "Dirty Jews"
2.) as Hex says, "only Jews"
3.) More "just Jews"
4.) Hex doesn't believe that his "palestinian" heroes in Hamas ever do this sort of thing. And even if they did, they're just killing Jews anyway
5.) Hex and Adrian's pornography
6.) hexs_denials
7.) Nothing gets these two all hot and bothered like shots of more dead and maimed "dirty Jews". Especially when the murderers are those peace seeking folk of Hamas et.al.
8.) But Hex thinks it's okay...
9.) hex_thinks_this_is_ok_since_hes_jewish
10.) They're not human, right, Hex?


> If only we had shots of the average "palestinian" cherring [sic] and dancing after EVERY ONE of these atrocities.


What's the matter, can't your multi-million dollar PR machine pull that off ?



> And it cost them their lives at the hands of barbarians.


"barbarians", while my position is my enemies are still human



> If you support the Palestinians...this blood is on your hands, too. (your a terrorist too)


> This means you, Hex. You're not as innocent as you'd like to believe.


it means your parroting israel propaganda


strawman ad hoc is all I list so far...

in your case though your own earlyer posts prove all





> What the hell?

your doing...


> Can't we discuss something more interesting? How about those tapes of Hussein's


yes - for a SOLID YEAR

---------------------------------------------
" 1) Iraq colors all. Saddam is your best defense, even if he is dead. The worldview Americans is entirely dominated by developments in Iraq. This is a unique opportunity for Israelis to deliver a message of support and unity at a time of great international anxiety and opposition from some of our European "allies." For a year - a SOLID YEAR - you should be invoking the name of Saddam Hussein and how Israel was always behind American efforts to rid the world of this ruthless dictator and liberate their people. Saddam will remain a powerful symbol of terror to Americans for a long time to come. A pro-Israeli expression of solidarity with the American people in their successful effort to remove Saddam will be appreciated. "
-----------------------------------------------

Let's discuss what LGF trolls want us to, which is exactly what their multi-million dollar PR propaganda guide suggests discussing...

it's the very first thing in a list they present.

read it and you'll find these LGF trolls are following it *word for word* in most cases, pasting shit right out of it often..



ned, jerry and scott are fueled by professional official israeli propaganda, and you can *see it in their writing* as you see where they've pasted blocks of text out of this PR guide

load both into a word processor and do searches by key word to quickly find matches...


http://www.reseauvoltaire.net/IMG/pdf/wexner-communication.pdf

I've converted it word for word into a plain text file, I renamed it PDF, just name it back to TXT (if I upload it as txt it will display it)

"For a year - a SOLID YEAR - you should be invoking the name of Saddam Hussein and *how Israel was always behind American efforts* to rid the world of this ruthless dictator and liberate their people."

http://www.reseauvoltaire.net/IMG/pdf/wexner-communication.pdf

"1.) Hex's "Dirty Jews"
2.) as Hex says, "only Jews"
3.) More "just Jews"
4.) Hex doesn't believe that his "palestinian" heroes in Hamas ever do this sort of thing. And even if they did, they're just killing Jews anyway
5.) Hex and Adrian's pornography
6.) hexs_denials
7.) Nothing gets these two all hot and bothered like shots of more dead and maimed "dirty Jews". Especially when the murderers are those peace seeking folk of Hamas et.al.
8.) But Hex thinks it's okay...
9.) hex_thinks_this_is_ok_since_hes_jewish
10.) They're not human, right, Hex? "


All true.

Every one.

fresca/nonanarchist/daveman/J and all the other handles he uses "stupid arabs", "i don't ride with arabs", etc...

all these are the same and J (plus K) was one of the handles he uses as a string of spamming posts which were hidden - he did this several times intertwinded with these other handles with the datestamps and all these other factors confirming, as well as IMC staff hidding them



the "J" that was posting on the global IMC is an exact match to the "J" that posts on LGF

(this handle was used in the same block of time, with intertwined datestamps and a perfect writing style match)


this "J" signed "Jerry" and left blog URL's (in older posts on LGF)

"Jerry" also appears as an email URL


On the blogs the "Jerry" is revealed to be Jerry Lawson

cross-checking demographics on Lawson eliminates several others, a strong match here shows a Jerry Lawson back to his 2 blogs and the base he was stationed at (which he still occasionaly visits to go to the PBX)

his interests, technical knowledge and intelligence and *political beliefs* and *values* are perfect matches as well

then there's his writing style (terminology, characterizations, grammar, spelling, capitalization practices, depth phenomenology, prose and psychoanalysis)


these factors all match as well - and they go far beyond his abilities to project as separate personas'

these factors also match the half dozen names we've seen him use

he appears to be doing 80 percent of the posting, with ned & scott making up the balance

LeMmE KnOw If YoU wAnt IT.
I'll bE hErE fOr a FEw .....

what is there to lose ?

cHoOsE a RaBbiTHoLe

66.218.93.59
66.20.127.75

Cutting to the chase what did you find in terms of - terminology, grammar, spelling, capitalization practices, and prose? (the most easily verifyable things).
presumably you have a word formation or somthing that occurs often in J's posts on his blog or LGF and another persons on here right?

66.218.93.59
web41310.mail.yahoo.com


66.20.127.75 * adsl-20-127-75.chs.bellsouth.net

That is all really too funny, Hex.

It's quite a little obsession you've got going on there.

Just think...I'M being CYBERSTALKED!!

DeVoy would be so proud of you, Hexie...

You little analysis aside (it's completely wrong, you know...I'm not Jerry, I've never had my own blog(s), never posted anywhere as J, etc., etc.)...

That's not my IP!

Losers!

...is the "multimillion-dollar LGF PR propaganda campaign"!

You need to tell Charles, LGF's designer and owner. Then he can shut down the PayPal tip jar.

Hex, seriously, you're a nut. Seek help, before you become a danger to yourself.

Say, Hex...

I thought you were Mr. Wizard in all things internet.

How come you need someone else to tell you my IP?

I'm shocked...SHOCKED!...that you would ned assistance for such a paltry thing.

I'm VERY disappointed in you, Hex.

You get one more chance, though...since you and our anonymous tipster BOTH screwed up, you can try again.

Better get it right, though, or you'll have to turn in your crown as King Geek.

People who remove other people's organs (without benefit of anesthesia) with their hands, wave said organs proudly in the air, and show the world their blood-stained hands, all because of the religion of the organs' owners, aren't quite human in my book.

Barbarians. Stop your ridiculous moral equivocation. It only makes you look stupid(er).

Yer either fer it or agin it.

And if you ain't agin it, yer fer it.

Do you understand that, Hex? There are no gray areas here, no matter how much your little liberal mind would like you to believe.

You've seen the pictures, had a chance to visit the links and get the story.

You've had a chance to say, "Yes, that is horrible. While I support the rights of Palestinians to self-determination and a homeland of their
own, I strongly condemn the torture and mutilation of those two Israeli soldiers."

Had you said that, I would have granted you some measure of respect.

But nope...you had to get all self-righteous and superior.

So, Hex, if you don't condemn that behaviour, you support it. There is no middle ground. No "Yeah, but"s. No "If only"s. You have allied yourself with those who think it's okay to shred other people by hand.

Now before you get all sanctimonious, and ascribe to me erroneous positions, I will make my opinions clear.

I fully support the rights of Palestinians to self-determination and a homeland of their own. I do NOT support, adn strongly condemn, the means they have chosen to achieve those goals. I also fully support the right of Israel to safety and security in their homeland. You, apparently, do not.

I do not now, nor have I ever, espoused the elimination of all Arabs, Muslims, Palestinians, or indeed any ethnic or religious group. You will claim that I have, based on your childish fantasy that I'm part of a supertroll collective (for which you have NEVER posted any shred of proof, only your opinion), but that's simply not the case.

Now...you are free to willfully misunderstand all this, as you have repeatedly done in the past. You may then call me names and ascribe to me opinions which I have not only not expressed but specifically denied having.

In other words, Hex, you are free to express you self in whatever manner you wish.

You know, the freedom you would deny to me and others with whom you disagree.