Ten Commandments on Display Has No Legal Standing
J.J. Johnson, Editor in Chief & CEO of The Sierra Times, August 24, 2003

Please excuse the shocking title of this article. I will try to get past much of the rhetoric from both sides of the standoff about the en Commandments on display at the State Courthouse in Montgomery, Alabama. As thousands descend to Alabama's state capitol for prayer and defense of a 5300 pound rock, and legal scholars try to sort out the mess, many pundits wonder 'just what point is Chief Justice Roy Moore trying to make?'

Well, here's one man's take on the matter: Despite all the historical documents from this nation's beginning, and despite everything we were taught from a young age, we are a more 'enlightened' people. We elected more 'enlightened' politicians who in turn appointed more 'enlightened' judges. And these all knowing, all powerful people, having more information at their fingertips than at any time in world history, have ruled that the basic rules of mankind that have been in place for at least 50 centuries have no place ; no legal standing in today's government.

...and that is the exact point Roy Moore is making.

The order to remove the Ten Commandments from public display at the Alabama Court Building is not the cause of a failed government, failed courts, or a failed people - it is instead, the result of it.

I will do my best here not to preach a sermon or sound like a right-wing zealot, but no one can tell me what is 'offensive' about those ten rules that are, in reality, the foundation of what was American law. But that's ancient history. We are more 'enlightened' today.

Being the greatest and most powerful country on earth, we don't need silly rules such as those ten. No, we have government today - which has become the new god. And we have finally come to a point where there just isn't enough room on the Grand Stage for two gods. Thus, the courts have consistently ruled in recent days that the 'Other God' must go.

And so, what if God does leave? What if he actually said, "ok, you guys win - and you're on your own"? That would make us a better country, wouldn't it?

Of course. And when folks like Jerry Falwell makes a statement on September 11 implying the God has removed his protective hand from us, we won't have to chastise him - since it would have been true.

And after such tragedies, we won't have national days of prayer, and prayer sessions in Congress while grieving over the dead because there will be no God to pray to. We told Him to get lost, remember? No, let us bow our heads and pray (and pay homage) to the New god of government. They will protect us from now on, and provide for all of our needs.

Let's not sing God Bless America anymore, since we really don't want him to. That's George W. Bush's job now. And let's remove "In God We Trust" from our currency, since we really don't trust him anymore. We've placed our faith in our money supply to Alan Greenspan.

And when it comes to religious symbols, we do our best to protect those in the war zone of Iraq, while throwing our own in the trash.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Word has it that a guy named Moses had gotten these ten rules straight from God himself. Even though e-mail wasn't around back then, God somehow downloaded them on to a couple of stone tablets. When Moses came back down from that mountain and saw the folks that were led out of slavery acting like too many of us today, he threw the tablets down, and they were forced to wander in the desert for 40 years.

But today, in the more enlightened America, we don't have to wander in the desert. We have military personnel to do that for us. And little by little, more will go and wander as well. You see, we have a new god now, and the whole world has become a desert.

So if and when we are plagued with earthquakes, violent storms, endless droughts, brushfires, or just people going crazy and shooting their co-workers or schoolmates, we'll call them "Acts of God", then plead to our new god (government) for our protection from all of these things. Yes, this new god is more to our liking. We can pray, and if the new god doesn't deliver, we can just vote him out of office (federal judges not withstanding). That Old God wouldn't let us do that.

Isn't it ironic that if everyone simply followed those rules, it would make not only that 5300 pound rock, but that entire building itself - irrelevant?

With the polls showing upwards of 77% of Alabamians, and the vast majority of Americans supporting the Ten Commandments being displayed at the courthouse, people are scratching their heads wondering, "why can't they just do what the majority wants?"

Answer: Because we asked for this.

We have long since slipped away from those tenants - and it's reflected in the people in government that represent us, enforce the laws, and rule on the laws. Yes, America - we didn't get the kind of government we wanted, nor the kind we needed. We get the kind of government we deserve.

We have become so 'enlightened' that we don't even know how to respect or enforce our own sovereignty. Millions cross our national borders illegally, and our leaders don't even have the will to call it illegal. As a result, we will eventually lose at least 4 southwestern states. I have all but given up trying to make it an issue anymore. We deserve it.

We have become so 'enlightened' that the only criteria for any judge to sit on a bench, despite all the other important decisions they have to make, depends on his or her willingness to sanction the killing of the unborn. Fine. We didn't want them to take the phrase "Thou shall not kill" seriously, anyway.

We have become so 'enlightened' that we fight to protect retirement schemes that we know will go broke soon, but that's okay since we've decided to let our grandchildren pay the bill. Then again, if they have no respect for that "Honor thy Father and Mother" thing when they grow up, why should they bother taking care of us?

We are so 'enlightened' that we find it acceptable to act pre-emptive, killing anyone we see fit to keep us safe, if we think they are a threat. Make sense, since we don't want God's protection anymore. We have to live this way now. We have enemies all around us and even within us we are told - because they envy us. They don't have the new god that we have, and they're jealous.

Gay Bishops are in, Boy Scouts are out, and sodomy has become a civil right, protected by the Constitution somewhere. Okay, I get it. According to our new god, the oldest industry on earth (agriculture) has become the most dangerous to the environment. And we all know that with all the craziness in schools these days, the last thing we need is prayer inside those buildings. Good thing we threw God out of there a long time ago. Just look at how much schools have improved since then.

Yes, for government's sake - let's get those Ten Commandments out of public view before something good happens.

And while we're at it, let's get all those crosses out of Arlington Cemetery. It's public property, you know. And tell all of our troops fighting overseas that worship service is history, turn in those pocket Bibles and as a matter of fact, they must all be atheists in those foxholes.

Let's do it right: Let us all come to an agreement that when the Bill of Rights was passed, they had no respect for any god, despite the fact that the Constitutional Convention was opened and closed with a Prayer to Almighty God. To Congress: Fire that priest we pay with our tax dollars to open and close each session of Congress with Prayer. We have a new god now, remember?

And one more thing: Let's not support Israel anymore, since their presence in the holy land is based on scripture, and our government's support would represent an 'establishment of religion'.

Hey ACLU and SPLC: Wanna take THAT one on?

Now, as for those people who have dedicated themselves to prevent the monument's removal, and those who have rallied to the cause - take a good look at them. That's what's left of the American ideal that was founded over two centuries ago - like it or not.

Make no mistake about it. If it weren't for too many trips already taken this year, I'd be there myself from 2000 miles away. Who knows - if the standoff in Alabama lasts, I may still be there. If I lived anywhere in Dixie, I would be writing this article from Montgomery.

Would I suggest others go? Let's put it this way: You don't even have to be a Christian, Jew or even a Muslim. God knows none of us have lived up the standards of all those rules, but it you believe the Ten Commandments should REMAIN the foundation on which this country is based, then take a drive down to Montgomery. Your fellow Americans are waiting for you.

And what about you, Mr. Bush? The silence from the White House is deafening. Is this only a "state issue" where the federal government should not get involved? If that were the case, we wouldn't be in this mess. I would not only pray for protection of the Ten Commandments, but that the President, during his fund raising travels, make a stop in Montgomery to visit with the Chief Justice, or maybe the people standing vigilant outside.

Odds are, they all voted for George W. Bush.

You see America: There is no sense looking for a legal loophole to save the Ten Commandments anymore, as God has no legal standing left in today's courts, government, or much of society. But the way things look from my piece of the world, perhaps it's time we invited Him back.

Just my opinion,
J.J. Johnson


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Render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar; render unto God that which belongs to God.

What a great idea. Then no one can say that the rich are taxed less than poor people in Cali.

Follow me to Sacremento I am your new God.

"Enlightened America has No Respect for God" oops...thought you ment
gold.
nevermind.

First they came for the Christians
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Christian.

Then they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Muslims
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Muslim.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

The fact of the Alabama case is that Moore's action is clearly illegal. The Ten Commandments is not a neutral moral statement, or something that any and all religions could agree with. The first four of the ten commandments mandate monotheism and specify that the "sabbath" is to be the holy day.

Nobody is threatening to close or tear down the churches, or stop Judge Moore or anybody from believing or praying or worshiping as they please. But for the supreme judicial authority of the state of Alabama to place a copy of a specific religion's tenets in a position indicating official, judicial sanction for those tenants, is a huge threat to freedom of religion. People of other religions or no religion who enter Judge Moore's courtroom will surely take the hint Moore is giving, which is that protection of the laws is for Christians (and maybe Jews, depending on what day you mean by the "sabbath") only.

How is this different from the idea of an "Islamic state" with Sharia law, except that it is official Christianity and not official Islam?

"People of other religions or no religion who enter Judge Moore's courtroom will surely take the hint Moore is giving, which is that protection of the laws is for Christians (and maybe Jews, depending on what day you mean by the "sabbath") only."

If they take it that way, they are misunderstanding. You can't account for all the different ways people might misunderstand something you might say or do, else you could never get anything accomplished.

"How is this different from the idea of an "Islamic state" with Sharia law, except that it is official Christianity and not official Islam?"

In a Islamic state, the religious law and the common law are one and the same. The state mandates that you be a member of a particular religion. For instance, if you are from Denmark, a portion of your taxes automatically goes to the Luthern Church, whether you are Luthern or not. Also, you are not permitted to obtain certain governmental benefits unless your profess Luthernism.

Seperation of church and state simply means that the state cannot mandate that its citizens be a certain religion. That's all it entails. Displaying the 10 Commandments (which BTW is Jewish law, not Christian) does not in any way suggest that those who enter the court will be judged by those commandments. Nor is the state sanctioning any particular religion. They are simply historical documents that the community has determined they would like to have placed in the courthouse. It would be no different if a group of Christians, or Muslims, or Buddist, or atheists were predominant in a community or state and chose to have their particular sayings placed in a courthouse.

"I will do my best here not to preach a sermon or sound like a right-wing zealot, but no one can tell me what is 'offensive' about those ten rules that are, in reality, the foundation of what was American law."

You fail on both counts, JJ. You do sound exactly like a rightwing zealot. Just like Roy Moore, who has put flesh on his rock memorial by issuing viciously homophobic comments in his rulings, and proclaiming his belief, his "oath," in god.

Some of the principles of justice [but not necessarily practice]found in not only American law but in many other places as well, are embodied in the Commandments, and in other documents as well. What Moore has said time and time again, is that his belief, a national belief, in god is embodied in those principles carved into granite and placed on display for all to see and, presumably, believe.

The first commandment affirms, "I am the lord your god...you shall have no other gods before me." And Moore has loudly proclaimed that his god is being ignored, and that is why he placed the monument on public display.

Moore's purpose all along has been to promote religion, a Judeo-Christian belief system, and to put such promotion on public display.

Certainly, chaplains paid by the government in the halls of Congress and in the military ought to be forbidden as well. And, now about all that church property that goes untaxed...

...how there is so much time and energy put into attacking Christianity.

We must be on to something.

Does that stand for toilet paper? Obviously a shill like you is just a cover for the shit for brains president we have. Go back to bathroom and pull up your pants you slob.

...I also believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. I'm a conservative.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

That is the first clause of the First Amendment. And that Amendment has been applied to the States through the 14th Amendment (so it also applies to State agencies, like the Alabama Supreme Court.)

It essentially comes down to the notion that the government cannot respect religion, but must tolerate religious practice by citizens. Toleration is something you do with a bad odor, or an annoying dog. Citizens are free to respect religion, but government can only tolerate it.

I respect the ten commandments. In fact, I have respect for many of the 613 commandments in the Old Testament (and the additional ones in the New.) I agree that a big problem with modern society is the lack of religion, and hope it will come to a more central role in the culture.

But I don't want the government to have anything to do with religion, especially mine. As a Christian, I find it offensive that my faith is being used by a demagogue (Moore) for partisan political purposes. No good ever comes from government involvement in religion. When government and religion get in bad together, the result is bastards.

Yes, our founding fathers were religious people. But they understood that their private religious beliefs had no place in official policy.

Tolerance, not respect. When a government official installs a religious display in a public part of a public building, that is respect, not tolerance. That installation should be removed immediately.

Let's go all the way and post the Bible injunctions against working on Saturday, looking at another person while experiencing sexual desire, and in favor of beating children, stoning "adultresses," and massacring the population of cities which refuse to surrender to God's appointed authorities. And don't forget Saint Paul's advice to the slaves to always obey their masters. I bet that last one has always been popular in Alabama.

Why do I have this feeling that the people who believe in the literal truth of bible stories like Noah's Ark or Jonah and the Whale tend to be the same people who still believe in Bush's wmds in Iraq story? Goes to show that there is one born every minute.

.....between religion and a cult?
The moronic "christian" above is so deluded about the bill of rights and how it pertains to the INDIVIDUAL in american society.
It is not a valid clause for a FEDERAL OR STATE GOVERNMENT. Thats why it is written that there shall be no state established religion.
And you can bet that those words are just that..words--they are hyporitical and open to any judgement at all...
No you say........
Well it says THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
and then the jude will go into the courtroom and sentance somone to the death penalty.
THATS NO WHAT IT MEANS YOU SAY?
my point exactly.....
PS
that moron above also said we need MORE RELIGION
in this country....
WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK ALL THESE WARS ARE BEING FOUGHT OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wanna see religious theocracy in action....look at Iran, Iraq, afganistan.....
think again.....
Religion is just a popular cult.

why do the worst of stupid drivers have fish or dove christian stickers with
american flags?
because they are morons.

Get out of my way!

as an aside to all the folks lamenting the loss of this overtly religious object from a public place, remember that the mosaic commandments are essentially a pared-down list of the code of hammurabi, from babylon.

also, our legal system owes far more to british common law, which in turn grew more out of roman law (those heathen romans!) than mosaic law.

lastly, i realize that the most extreme christians believe that there is no other way to god -- after all, Jesus of Nazareth is reported as saying in the gospel of john, "no one comes to the father [god] except through me" -- than their way. however, this is a form of mythological thinking which doesn't make much sense to, say, a devout muslim, buddhist or hindu. or, for that matter, to an agnostic or atheist.

so this all comes back to the issue of a list of the mosaic commandments being prominently displayed in a public place. personally, i would just say it's alabama, conservative as hell, and narrowminded to boot, so what do you expec?. but the *principle* of the thing is that if you bring a frightened defendant into the courthouse, for example, who is not a christian, the implication made by the list of the ten commandments that the court is somehow predisposed toward christians and a christian world view gives the impression of two kinds of people, christians and non-christians, with the latter perhaps not receiving equal treatment in the eyes of the court.

lastly, what many extremist christians cannot fathom is that freethinkers would just as much oppose a list of, for example, the buddha's four noble truths in a public place as they would the ten commandments. it is only an historical accident that christianity is the dominant religion in this part of the world, so this is the religion that most often must be curtailed by the courts. but remember, recently a florida woman, a muslim, was required by the courts there to remove her facial covering for her driver's license photo; the court's reasoning was that it is a public safety issue, and thus in that single instance outweighs the woman's right to exercise her religion as she sees fit..

the last thing i will say in this rant is this: extremists of any religion, don't worry! you indoctrinate your children, and i'll teach mine. religion isn't going anywhere, so just chill.

The decision to remove the monument is NOT an attack on Christianity. It is merely an attack on government taking any official stance with regard to religion. There is no valididity in the claim that the Ten Commandments are the basis of US law. There are no laws requiring us to accept a biblical god, to keep holy the Sabbath, or to honor our parents. There are similarly no laws forbidding the worship of graven images, or from "misusing" the name of the Lord, or from providing false witness except where such falsehoods fall under the statutes of perjury, fraud, libel, or slander. I will not be thrown in jail or fined should I commit adultery or covet my neighbor's goods. The only commandments that are generally forbidden are murder and theft, and these have long been held illegal by societies that were not predominately Judeo-Christian.

I would also like to point out that no one is forbidding private displays. If Moore wished to pay for an identical monument to be placed on his front lawn, that would not be deemed unconstitutional. The only objection is when a governmental entity takes a stand in support of a particular religious viewpoint, which is what Moore has done here. While placement of the monument seems to have been a singular effort by Moore, its location and presumably its funding place it in the public realm. That is why it runs afoul of the First Amenmdent.

First They Came for
by Niemoller • Sunday August 24, 2003 08:05 PM

First they came for the Christians
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Christian.

Then they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Muslims
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Muslim.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

********************************************************

It's just a matter of time. First they will round up those who hold religious faiths, and those here who are progressives like Meyer and systemfailure and others here will not raise their voice in objection. I have every reason to believe that , based upon their past positions, they would be willing to participate in rounding up people who believe in a diety. They won't care because they will see it as a good thing. And just like the poem states, eventually they will come for them. And when they do, no one will be there to fight for them.

What tripe.

No one's coming for the muslims. Islam is coming for us. The bad muslims (the one's who don't follow islamic law and it's preaching of hate and murder) are at just as much risk as the rest of us.

Nice poem though. If only you could fit it on a bumber sticker.

Wow, we're getting a little paranoid!! Here's something for you, what happened to the Kurds in Iraq and why was it wrong to help them even though we may have been using WMD as an excuse? When you say you are against US power in Iraq, why can't you watch a video of the mass executions done by Saddam, Uday, and Quisay and say anything bad about that? If everyone had your attitude back during WWII, I would not have ever been born because of my religion. This is why your peace movement never had a chance!! You may speak out against something you think is wrong, but in the process you also become hypocrites! We'll just let the Saddam Loyalists take back the power after we leave Iraq and let them massacre all those who defied the regime? Is that what you want??????

Now that we've killed Uday and Quisay; Don't you think its about time we've Baghdad??????

"...take back the power after we leave Iraq and let them massacre all those who defied the regime? Is that what you want??????"

That is EXACTLY what they want, Fantasy Land. Their hatred for Bush is so deep, they're willing to condemn any number of Iraqis to plastic shredders, acid baths, and shallow graves.

Then they can blame Bush for that as well.

"That is EXACTLY what they want, Fantasy Land."

That's rich, coming from someone who believes in the FANTASY that is God. Moron.

Since you say there's no God, I better stop believing in Him, then.

I think if you tried, you could be a tiny bit more arrogant.

Meanwhile: how many Iraqis would YOU sacrifice to your god, Bush-Hatred?

I think that even if you tried, you couldn't be any more asinine.

I could be you.

You might as well have said "I know you are, but what am I?"

What's next? Are you going to start sticking out your tongue at the monitor? Idiot.

...what exactly is there about me that you consider asinine?

Then I'll tell you why you're wrong.

Asssssssssss.

Well, you're a poopyhead!

Wow.

You truly are an idiot.

You rarely see such idiocy in action (outside of California, that is).

It's amazing to see a master in action.

Thank you.

I guess you really are asinine then, eh?

Do you enjoy having conversations with yourself?

I sure do!

Ooooh.

Don't you have to get back to the supermarket? Those groceries won't bag themselves, you know!

Sometimes it's the only intelligent conversation you get all day.

Especially if you spend any time at all at la-imc.

As you all have proven.

Get back to work, you peon. The urinals need new scent cakes.

Don't make me post your credit card number.

He's an intelligent person.

Not a 12 year old IndyMidiot.

Some of us don't NEED bosses. Idiot.

Some of us don't NEED bosses. Idiot.

Are you saying you've thrown off the bonds of oppression, have taken control of your means of production, are living int he Worker's Paradise(tm)?

Or are you just unemployed?

But me and Steven Devoy are looking at this little startup venture...

Look up the word "entrepreneur." Idiot.

Sorry that I was too stupid to know what an entrepreneur is.

So your boss is an idiot, then.

They must all kiss my pinky ring.

his business must certainly be goingdown the tubes...

Actually, I had a seven-figure profit last year. Next?

Try to calm yourself, Firsttogo; no one is rounding up Christians in Alabama. For that matter, Hitler didn't round up Christians either, unless they openly opposed him. Few did; in fact pastors and priests led their congregations in prayers for his military success.
The dispute was about displaying the Ten Commandments in a courthouse and thus violating the principle of separation of church and state, not about rounding anyone up. Last I heard the arrest of fundamentalist Christians in Alabama was not among the most widespread problems in our society.

So did I. In fact, so did Steven Devoy, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and the owners of this website!

...making mucho dollars selling those "BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED!" and "Let's Give Gray One More Chance And Another 38 Billion Dollars!" bumper stickers at the stoplight.

Actually, I only made $8,000 last year AFTER taxes. That's why I'm such a bitter old fart.

I got 6 grand for my tax refund. And I paid no Federal taxes.

Have conversations with yourself on another website.

It's a free country, despite your best efforts to the contrary.

"LA-IMC -- Free Speech For Me But Not For Thee!"

"Make me, Bumper Sticker Boy."

I, for one, don't MAKE trash; I BURN it.

...and posting on la-imc.

...I know you are, but what am I?

That's about the level of (un)intelligent discourse I've come to expect from conservatives.

The ten commanments were given to Moses in the old testament. In the new testament the Prince of Peace(you know who that is) gave us only two commanments. Love the lord your god with all your might and your neighbor like your self. He did not think we needed to be reminded of ten, a simple two because he knew we all suffer from ADD. Do we follow those two? We not only break those simple to remmember two we do it in his name.We kill ,we lie,we cheat in Gods name which to me as a catholic is a mortal sin. A piece of stone some might say is idolitry you know what I mean what catholics are accused of all the time. At least they keep their graven images in their Churches . these hipyocrits want it outside a public building. Get a life we have far more serious problems facing us. Life and death situations a piece of stone with commanments written on it will not bring my son home from Iraq. You know why? We break the most imortant two commandments he gave us. We do not love God and we do love our neighbor. My suggestion to the Judge read the story of St Francis.

The ten commanments were given to Moses in the old testament. In the new testament the Prince of Peace(you know who that is) gave us only two commanments. Love the lord your god with all your might and your neighbor like your self. He did not think we needed to be reminded of ten, a simple two because he knew we all suffer from ADD. Do we follow those two? We not only break those simple to remmember two we do it in his name.We kill ,we lie,we cheat in Gods name which to me as a catholic is a mortal sin. A piece of stone some might say is idolitry you know what I mean what catholics are accused of all the time. At least they keep their graven images in their Churches . these hipyocrits want it outside a public building. Get a life we have far more serious problems facing us. Life and death situations a piece of stone with commanments written on it will not bring my son home from Iraq. You know why? We break the most imortant two commandments he gave us. We do not love God and we do love our neighbor. My suggestion to the Judge read the story of St Francis.