French strikes to affect already weakened economy: analysts

Wed Jun 11, 2:04 PM ET

PARIS (AFP) - Although the strikes that have hit France over the last three weeks should have only a limited economic impact, they are yet another shock to the country's shaken economy, analysts said.

Workers, primarily in the public sector, have been striking regularly for three weeks against planned government reforms to the pension system.

Credit Agricole economist Anne Beaudu warned the strikes "could especially have an impact on consumer confidence and spending".

With companies currently holding back from making investments, consumer spending has become the main driving force behind France's meagre economic growth.

Societe Generale economist Olivier Gasnier said recent television images of Paris police firing tear gas and water cannons to disperse hundreds of masked protestors could rattle consumers already shaken by rising unemployment.

"The radicalisation of the strikes, the images of violence like those seen on Tuesday evening in Paris could disturb consumers' peace of mind," he said.

Services and industry might not have been paralysed by the strikes but they have not escaped unscathed.

According to the Paris Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Parisian department stores, already hit by a drop in tourism, saw their sales fall by about 10 percent in May in comparison with May 2002 because of public transport strikes.

Credit Lyonnais economist Olivier Eleure said the economic effect would be borne primarily by the public sector.

The head of the national rail company SNCF, Louis Gallois, said one day of strikes cost his company 20 million euros (23.5 million dollars) and the state-owned Paris public transport company RATP has estimated that it is losing one million euros per day of strikes.

Although the strikes are so far not holding up supply chains, CDC Ixis Capital Markets economist Laure Maillard said French industrial groups were "getting worried about drops in their domestic orders".

French statistics office INSEE declined to comment on what impact the strikes might have on the economy ahead of the publication next week of its regular study of the French economy.

The widespread strikes that affected France for more than a month in 1995 are thought to have shave 0.3 percentage points off economic growth in the last quarter of the year.

Some analysts predicted the current wave of strikes were not having such a large impact on the economy.

Societe Generale's Gasnier said: "We are not in the same situation as in 1995 and we should lose about 0.1 percentage point as a result of the strikes."


But CDC Ixis' Maillard pointed out: "It's another shock which the (French) economy does not need and which lengthens an already long list of shocks."


Data from INSEE showed last month that the economy narrowly escaped recession in the first quarter of 2003, when it grew 0.3 percent after contracting 0.1 percent in fourth quarter of 2002.

French growth has been slack amid the threat of war in Iraq, high oil prices early in the year, and weakness in the economies of major trade partners, notably Germany.

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There will be progress in the United States only when we act with the same courage and militancy.

Hang in there, Mr Raffarin. The majority in your country is counting on you to make the needed reforms to the pension system. Without reforms, the demographic shift will make the system insolvent. So far, so good. You're a brave man to not let a gang of violent thugs prevent you from doing your job. Let's see if Mr Schroeder can face the German thugs with the same bravery.

What;s that, Newton baby, hang Raffarin? Well, I'm not that bloodthirsty. I say that putting him in an educational labor camp should be sufficient.

...in the United States only when we act with the same courage and militancy."

Well, that lets you out, Oscar Meyer.

You're a coward.

Some of you get so excited when you see photos of street violence...

For those of you who support the strikes, what alternative plan do you endorse to reform France's pension system? Or do you just like to see people on the streets burning stuff?

"For those of you who support the strikes, what alternative plan do you endorse to reform France's pension system? Or do you just like to see people on the streets burning stuff?"

ABSOLUTELY NO PLAN AT ALL. You've hit the nail on the head. Any jackass with a sign and a match will get these lemmings heated up.

What are you doing here in this bed of weasels? Got anything new on your
'nessie files'?

We tried that once before Nessie. Didn't work.

What it did do was create the opportunity for Napoleon to take over.

Nessie said:

"I have a plan. Round up the rich and herd them off a cliff. Confiscate their wealth and finance pensions with that. Turn their mansions into senior centers."

What a classic. In two sentences Nessie has captured the essence of the liberal concept, which is:

"Don't earn it, steal it."

Then redistribute the loot to all the other lazy bums who also haven't worked for it and earned it. The novel twist is to toss in 'senior citizens' in an effort to put a positive spin on thievery.

It's taking the age-old liberal 'free-lunch' philosophy to it's logical conclusion. Typical Nessie nonsense.

The left wing unions in France do indeed have a plan - tax the rich parasites who got their money through inheritance, stock swindles, explointing workers, sucking in wealth from former French colonies, and living in idleness from the rents they recieve from real estate ownership and finance the pension system from that; it will provide money both for French-born workers and immigrants who would not be in France in the first place if Franch capitalists had not pushed various Frence governments of the past into invading, colonizing and exploiting their home coutnries.

Nessie,
By trying to put a smiley face on your murderous thieving fantasy, you forget that the rich people are the senior citizens.

Oscar Meyer,
You obviously know nothing about the debate. Believe it or not, union membership in France in lower than it is in the USA. Nearly all of these union members in France are in the public sector. The unions' problem with the reforms is that they will align the public benefits with the benefits of those who work in the private sector: the public-sector employees would need to work for 40 years in order to retire with full benefits - in line with the private sector - instead of the present 37.5 years.

In any event, the rich in France are already taxed (marginal tax rate and inheritance tax) at about 50%. Is that too low for you?

What murderous activity? could you possibly mean, maybe the activities of the police? They are the only ones participating in anything that could be considered murderous that I can see from the pictures. And the only violent. Violence = people, I see nobody out in the streets hurting anyone else other then the po-lice..But i guess it doesn't matter to you, just sip your latte.

This is Class War!

I never said murderous activity. I said murderous fantasy. Why?

Nessie's words: "Round up the rich and herd them off a cliff."

Why do all these right wing cunts bother posting on indymedia in the US? Don't they have anything better to do?

Maybe they are bored because they have nothing to do but collect the checks from their trust accounts or from their apartment house managers.

I have a better idea - lower the number of retirement years in the private sector to match those of the public sector. That will eliminate the imbalance that seems to bother people like you. After all, I just know that you are on the side of the workers, not that of the parasites.

You bet I think 50 percent is too low; it used to be 90 percent even in the United States, where capitalism and the accumulation of wealth is the real state religion.
Besides, they don't actually pay 50 percent, any more than rich parasites in the U.S. ever payed 90 percent. With the help of flunky lawyers and accountants they find tax loopholes or invest the dough overseas, perhaps in Asian sweatshops.
I don't think that ev 90 percent is sufficient; I'm for 100 percent taxation of the parasites - with no loopholes.

Meyer,
Maybe next year, when you reach the 8th grade and they teach you about macroeconomics, you'll realize the stupidity of your ideas.

Maybe when, during the next recession, you get laid off and are faced with the choice of homelessness or being a locker attendant at a gym for rich idlers you will realize the stupidity of yours.

If anybody actually cares about the current pensions debate in France (and elsewhere), here is some information:

It's not a matter of fairness (aligning working years), it's a matter of getting people to work longer and collect pensions for a shorter time. The population is ageing. There won't be enough people of working age to support the retired generation. Also, in the developed countries, life expectancy is increasing and the type of labour is increasingly office-based -- people don't get worn out from manual labour.

BY 2030, people over 65 in Germany, the world's third-largest economy, will account for almost half the adult population, compared with one-fifth now. And unless the country's birth rate recovers from its present low of 1.3 per woman, over the same period its population of under-35s will shrink about twice as fast as the older population will grow.

Populations in Europe are poised to plunge on a scale not seen since the Black Death in 1348.

Your argument assumes the continued existence of an exploitive capitalist economy in which a huge part of society's wealth goes to keeping wealthy parasites in luxury and to socially useless enterprises like advertising, private insurance, the "defense" industry, the military, and stockbroking. Today's society has enough wealth to guarantee everyone, including retirees, a more than decent existence. The obstacle is not a population that is growing older but capitalism.

Oh well, I tried. Like I said earlier...

...bother posting on indymedia in the US?"

Because we can, Matt from London.

Two words for you: First Amendment.

Three more: Freedom of Speech.

Any of this ring a bell?

Couldn't miss this classic Meyer comment: "You bet I think 50 percent is too low; it used to be 90 percent even in the United States, where capitalism and the accumulation of wealth is the real state religion."

Geez, Meyer, you're hopeless!

My own view is that 10% is about the right number for taxation. We currently have excessive government. If we were to lay off 50% of government employees I think we'd still be into the fat without touching any muscle. Let's do the 50% and then maybe another 25% to see if we hit muscle.

This is America, land of the free. And, if you're free, you should be able to keep your own money.

Those liberals who wish to subsidize the poor, the lame, the death row inmates, the aids victims, the homeless, and anyone else who wanders by looking for a handout, are more than welcome to do so. In fact, Meyer, Charles Manson is getting older now and he requires some dental work. Can we send the bill to you for that to you Meyer??

If left up to me we'd deal with Manson for 50 cents (the cost of a lethal injection).

I think a flat tax of 10% would be a great idea. That's enough to build roads and have a strong military.

...what about air traffic control?

You've got it all wrong, Bush Admirer: we should not be throwing more money at the military and roads to accomdidate automobiles. We should be throwing money at schools, public tranportation, libraries, health care for all, social service programs like head-start that will help prevent the appearance of new Mansons, shelter for the homeless, hospital that are open to all, a guaranteed job or everyone who owns one, real anti-pollution legislation with teeth in it, and research and treatment to fight global pandemics of AIDS and other illnesses at least partly brought on by capitalist globalization. We should also be throwing massive sums of money in the forms of reparations to Iraq, Vietnam, Panama, Nicaragua, Cuba, El Salvador and other nations whose societies we have wrecked.
By the way, I don't condone the earlier poster's use of the sexist term cunts; I misread it as nuts.
One more point: if you keep adding new groups to your hate list of those who don't deserve any help from society (the poor, AIDS victims, etc.) you will soon have the vast majority of the U.S. population listed. I notice you left out "defense" contractors, generals who have three thousand dollar toilet bowls built for themselves, and parasitical billionaries like the Bush family.

Meyer London Wrote:

"You've got it all wrong, Bush Admirer: we should not be throwing more money at the military and roads to accomdidate automobiles. We should be throwing money at schools",

Most of the schools are fine. The real problem is the parents. They don't pay attention to there kids and so the children fuck up at school. Single family black students are by far the biggest proglem. I was a teacher and facts are facts.

"AIDS and other illnesses at least partly brought on by capitalist globalization."

Oh give me a fucking break. AIDS was from Africa and the very mention of capitalism being partly responsible for it's spread is laughable at best. Talk about a display of ignorance Meyer.

" We should also be throwing massive sums of money in the forms of reparations to Iraq, Vietnam, Panama, Nicaragua, Cuba, El Salvador and other nations whose societies we have wrecked."

Reparations to Iraq, who the hell are you kidding? First of all they have plenty of oil to rebuild the country. Second it was Saddam that ruined the country or have you had your head up your ass for the last decade? Don't both answering, we already know.


"One more point: if you keep adding new groups to your hate list of those who don't deserve any help from society (the poor, AIDS victims, etc.)"

How about your hate list, people who plan their lives and have jobs and want to keep their money for their families? You want to steal their money and send it to fucking CUBA?

Quick point Meyer. Cuba has destroyed more nations and cultures in Africa than any other modern nation. Castro has spread war over they entire region!

"three thousand dollar toilet bowls built for themselves, "

Oh whatever, name a $3,000 toilet purchase or shut the hell up. Darn but you are one stupid wanker. And quite frankly your typical liberal rants are the reason I left the Democratic party. I just couldn't stand the "we can make shit up to prove our point " attitudes any longer.

Urg!@

I hope you enjoy your new organization. What is it?
The KKK? Focus on the Family? The Timothy McVeigh Memorial Battalion of the Mountain Men Militia? The Robert E. Lee Society to Re-establish Slavery? The Campaign to Kick Children of Illegal Aliens Out of Grade School and Give the Money Spent on Them to the Marine Corps?

No really, you can't make a rational point nor refute a post so you call someone a KKK member. Nice and mature. Quite frankly your uncle-lover must be really proud.

Well I'm not KKK but you sure the fuck are one of the stupidest people on the web, LOL!

Can you clear up one point, how can you masterbate and type at the same time.

Meyer London Wrote:

"You've got it all wrong, Bush Admirer: we should not be throwing more money at the military and roads to accomdidate automobiles. We should be throwing money at schools",

Most of the schools are fine. The real problem is the parents. They don't pay attention to there kids and so the children fuck up at school. Single family black students are by far the biggest proglem. I was a teacher and facts are facts.

"AIDS and other illnesses at least partly brought on by capitalist globalization."

Oh give me a fucking break. AIDS was from Africa and the very mention of capitalism being partly responsible for it's spread is laughable at best. Talk about a display of ignorance Meyer.

" We should also be throwing massive sums of money in the forms of reparations to Iraq, Vietnam, Panama, Nicaragua, Cuba, El Salvador and other nations whose societies we have wrecked."

Reparations to Iraq, who the hell are you kidding? First of all they have plenty of oil to rebuild the country. Second it was Saddam that ruined the country or have you had your head up your ass for the last decade? Don't both answering, we already know.


"One more point: if you keep adding new groups to your hate list of those who don't deserve any help from society (the poor, AIDS victims, etc.)"

How about your hate list, people who plan their lives and have jobs and want to keep their money for their families? You want to steal their money and send it to fucking CUBA?

Quick point Meyer. Cuba has destroyed more nations and cultures in Africa than any other modern nation. Castro has spread war over they entire region!

"three thousand dollar toilet bowls built for themselves, "

Oh whatever, name a $3,000 toilet purchase or shut the hell up. Darn but you are one stupid wanker. And quite frankly your typical liberal rants are the reason I left the Democratic party. I just couldn't stand the "we can make shit up to prove our point " attitudes any longer.

Urg!@

The state doesnt have control over parents as such. It is practically impossible to just improve parents all it can do is improve schools and police etc etc.
If the state improves the school then it can use that as a way to influence greater society.
I have been to schools where there was very limited dicipline kids commited crimes against other kids that if they were adults could have gotten them thrown in prison.
by the time they leave school they have already learnt how the world works and it is to late to teach them any different.
Sure that was also the parents fault but you cant eliminate bad parents at least it is concievable you could eliminate bad schools.

I know we are straying way off topic here, but the "kids with bad parents disrupt the kids whose parents care" phenomenom is the point of vouchers. The parents who care can get their kids away from the kids who spoil the school.

I know. Some will say: "That's not fair. The school full of kids whose parents don't care will not improve." As Scottie just said, sometimes it's too late. But you should still help those who want to be helped.

an area with a bad school might complain but it is much better to have a very bad school that you can then monitor closely if needed than 100 schools each with a few out of control people that you can't keep track of.

Child abusers (and other relocatable criminals) are another one.

Well at least this is how it is where I am

no one wants to have a collection of child abusers in an area so instead we spread them out everywhere so that it is hard to provide them with the ongoing support required to stop them from reoffending or for parents and children to do anything proactive to reduce their risks.

If they just encouraged them to stay close together they could arange not to have schools in that area and to have the appropriate support facilities.

It is the working classes who produce income and wealth, it is only the bureaucrats and bourgeoisie that rob them of it. The only freeloaders are the upper class, who produce NOTHING.

All power to the workers councils!

fake nessie. But the idea of sacking the rich ( I don't mean the well to do, I mean the RICH ) appeals to me.

I've got the answer
Tax Religion.

that would scotch my 3rd Satanic church tax write off...

"It is the working classes who produce income and wealth, it is only the bureaucrats and bourgeoisie that rob them of it."

This is simply an inane statement. What sort of silly mind would command fingers to type such obvious nonsense?

"This is simply an inane statement."

Unsubstantiated Allegation

If you hate Arabs, Muslims, Blacks, Latinos, and Koreans, come to Computers N.L.A. for a purely Aryan shopping experience. No funny accents at our shop. Just red blooded Americans.

the world needs harsher punishments for criminals.

if someone steals and is caught in the act of the crime...his or her hands need to be cut-off.

if a person rapes and/or abuse a child, that person needs to have 1 hour alone, tied-up with the victim and their loved ones...for a "no holds barred" punishment. Short of murdering the criminal.

We have turned into a bunch of pussies that cater to criminals instead of the victims...

Meyer London said: "tax the rich parasites who got their money through inheritance, stock swindles..."

This simply reveals Meyer's juvenile jealousy of the rich. In his small mind, no one can be rich legitimately... the only reason they are rich is because they STOLE that money.

He wants his beloved poor people to have more money... until, that is, they become so successful that they become wealthy... then they are transformed into the hated rich.

In Meyer World everyone would make and have the same amount on money. Both success and failure would be equally rewarded (after all, we wouldn't want to hurt the feelings of people who are serial failures), thereby removing all incentive for economic achievement.

It is not the rich who are the "parasites"... It is the non-achievers in society who spend decades living on welfare, food stamps and a myriad of government handout programs. These people produce NOTHING. While many of them are legitimately down and out, many others have made this an actual lifestyle. They are leeches on society. THEY are the parasites, Meyer.

Socialism is a blight on humanity that breeds sloth and petty emotion. Someday, when Meyer gets out of the 9th grade and actually earns a living, he'll understand this. If he never comes to this understanding you can be sure he will spend the remainder of his life looking for ways to put his hand into your wallet.

Why would I do that? There's nothing in there but maxed-out credit cards, and your Cointelpro paycheck does not come until the end of the month.
I don't know why we are reliving the history of this board in 2003, but I stand by everything I said then. The Cheetos boys are losers and fascists. Capitalism means authoritarianism, exploitation, poverty for many and war. Bush is a buffoon. Sometime around then I remember predicting that the US would lose a thousand troops withing the next few months; the Cheetos boys mocked me for a fool. Well, the total is well on its way to 2100 now and will almost certainly be well above 3000 by this time next year if that murderous clown Bush is not stopped. The rich ride on the shoulders of the rest of us. We need to dump them and claim our freedom.

Right; Paris Hilton and George "My Oil Company and Baseball Team that Daddy bought me Failed" Bush both deserve everything they have. And laid-off auto workers deserve to be sleeping in the streets if they can't find new jobs. Survival of the fittest. And the story of Noah's Ark is true as well. And the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause both exist.

Marxism argues that the primary source of value in an object comes from labor, and this relationship justifies that workers determine what is done with the products.

Capitalism isn't making any coherent arguments, but is based on the idea that any profit you gain from selling something at a price above the cost of production belongs to the person who owns the product. Many capitalists argue that this profit is what causes production, and is what drives the economy.

Other capitalists don't agree with that, wholly, but support it anyway. The current debate over oil profits and price gouging is a good example. You have two variations of capitalism arguing over it. Some are totally supportive of price gouging (and don't call it that). Others think capitalism needs moderation and regulation to remain stable.

Socialsts would argue that the oil, as a key natural resource, should be held by a national monopoly and controlled by the people.

In the US, the government doesn't produce things, because it's not supposed to. That's "capitalism." So, you argue for capitalism, but at the same time, criticize a government that operates in the capitalist mode by not producing things.

In a socialist system, the government does get involved in some production. Not all, but, some. That, by definition, is socialism.

The anarchist mode is vague, but one core idea is that there's "no government" but, that the production of things *is* the basis of self-governance.

The socialist economy of Venezuela is an example of success as well as the socialist economy of Cuba despite the 40+ years of bitter embargo. Think how well they would have done in a just world without their northern bully trying to strangle them.

>Take the iPod for a current example. The value is in the design and in the system integration wth iTunes and computer operating systems (Mac and Windows). Labor and production are in Taiwan or Singapore.

You're ignoring the labor that it took to design the product. What's happening is that value is coming from "intellectual property" of brands, software, design, and other aspects that make the product more popular than other products.

I know, you don't think of "art" as work, but, it is. It has a market value, and someone has to do it.

> Apple gets the profit and shares it with others in the supply chain including the production folks in Asia.

Apple doesn't *share* it. Apple pays for products and labor.

The ability of these different parties to make a claim on the iPod revenues depends on their power to make the demand. This power comes, in part, from the political conditions where the workers do their work.

>You don't see any iPod stories coming out of places like Cuba or Venezuela (and you never will). The iPod is a product of entrepreneurial capitalism.

Let's see. There's no iPod in Cuba, but there is full literacy, an infant mortality rate rivaling the USA, and free education through college.

I know, I know... education, life, literacy. Boring stuff. it's much easier to have a small elite class of smart people to manipulate the rest of the people into killing each other, for profit.

>We have many examples like that. Socialism has none. Anarchism doesn't even make it off the starting blocks. It's a non-starter.

Let's see.... public education, free libraries, food for all, housing for all, equal rights for all people, and rights for women equal to men. Now, there's the personal computer, and Free software. Those things all have roots in movements that have called themselves "socialist" or "anarchist." Naysaying whigs like yourself said these things weren't possible or desirable.

Also, the iPod's popularity is entirely dependent on the mass "illegal" copying of music files across the internet. Either they're riding on the coattails of "pirates", or they are taking advantage of the continued destruction of the capitalist fraud of "intellectual property".

>The problem faced by Cuba's Castro and Venezuela's Chavez was, and is: "How can I prop myself up as dictator for life given the economic failures and miserable poverty in this country?"

Simple. Don't screw the people over more than the prior dictator. Use the widespread popular support to abuse your power. If you have a valuable natural resource, exploit it, and make sure a fraction of the money goes right into people's pockets. Give peasants land so they'll stop bothering you by marching into the capital with their pitchforks and torches.

That's what Khaddaffi did, and he's a very popular dicatator. Generals with political aspirations wants to be like Khaddaffi. Unfortunately, some of them end up like Idi Amin, Duvalier, Norieaga, or Saddam.

Chavez, however, is a different kind of guy. He's inspired by Simon Bolivar. Philosophically, Bolivar was influenced by the Enlightenment, and advocated democratic repbulicanism (with a small r). (He was also part Black, and a general, like Chavez.) So, while Chavez is basically a socialist, his tendency is influenced by the same philosophers who influenced our "Founding Fathers."

I thought we were discussing the iPod.

Don't get me wrong -- I think iPods are fine. They just aren't a good justification for capitalism. Your explanation about labor and value were off the mark, too.

The linked article is interesting. It outlines how companies in the US are investing some $2billion into Cuba annually. A few years back, there were only 1,000 internet users in Cuba, an island of 11 million people.

That's 11 million educated people, many with advanced degrees, under a benevolent popular dictator who's going to keel over soon. If the embargo drops, Havana could become a viable place from which to telecommute.

Wake up and observe the real world, BA, not the fairy tale world that existed only in the minds of Ayn Rand and George Bush (to the extent that he has a mind.) Computers, and especially the internet, were developed by the US Government, then turned over to private corporations who were allowed to make profits off the public for the use of these things. Typical late capitalist behavior; the state slashes social services, then invests billions in helping business, which then insists that the poor and homeless "learn to stand on their own feet and stop regarding themselves as victims." As for transportation, there wouldn't even be a national transportation system or a national capitalist economy in this country if the Federal Government had not given vast amounts of free land to railroads after the Civil War, at the same time that farmers and homeowners were losing their land due to debts to banks - banks which frequently had money invested in railroads.

Both. The process of "education" by the state always indoctrinates you to the ideology of the state. It happens in Cuba, and it happens in the US. It happens in all states, because you have limited time, and limited resources. All education has a lot of indoctrination in it.

How many people get out of high school in the US really understanding imperialism? Precious few, because, we're still operating in the imperialist mode. In order for society to preserve order, we must all believe a set of myths about imperialism that don't upset us. Likewise, we don't really learn about westward expansion from any perspective except the dominant one; even the white supremacist ideology of Manifest Destiny isn't questioned.

They're indoctrinated in Cuba as well, but, unlike the people in the US, who aren't exposed to world realities too often, the Cubans are exposed to western Media, read the western classics, and read up on the US.

As for making money in Cuba, I'm sure it's the same there as in any 3rd world country. You open a bank account in another more stable contry, and get paid in dollars or euros into that account. You reinvest both local money and dollars locally and hope things work out.

As for iPods - I don't own one. I've lived without a car, and without health insurance, and some educational debt, so, at one point in my life, Cuba would have been a material improvement over the USA. At least from an impartial fiscal standpoint.

Also, good point Meyer - computers did start out as a government project to carry out WW2.

johnk said: "... under a benevolent popular dictator ..."

Perfect. johnk thinks that Castro's communist dictatorship is "benevolent". That's rich!

While social tapeworms like johnk and Meyer London think Castro is "benevolent" Castro holds thousands of political prisoners, executes political opponents, stifles free speech, squelches free markets inside Cuba and has his military working overtime preventing native Cubans from LEAVING Cuba.

This sort of hypocritical self delusion about freedom and the paradise of Cuba is exactly why johnk and Meyer London have no intellectual traction whatsoever.

But they are simply part of a slice of humanity that NEEDS dictatorship. johnk and Meyer London NEED to be lorded over... socially, economically and politically. They view themselves as merely 2 ants in the ant farm, not as individuals. They can't handle living in the USA because the freedom its affords overwhelms them. They gravitate towards a highly controlled and controlling environment. Dictatorship is a necessary element of their personal mental health. Genuine freedom is far too challenging to their sense of 'the collective' because it doesn't require that self destructive concept.

Meyer and johnk seem mentally unstable because THEY ARE. They will only feel confortable when they can grovel at the boots of a "benevolent dictator", when they can deny their own self worth and spend their days atononing for their warped sense of personal guilt for the plight of others.

Lets take up a collection for their one way tickets to real 'benevolence'.

-johnk and Meyer London have no intellectual traction whatsoever.

And your references are?

That's an assertion easily supported by the fact that only a small minority of people agree with these turds.

Now that I've satisfied your need to play games you'd better get back to the drive-through window before your boss finds out you're playing on the public library computer during your breaks.

If I remember correctly, when a count of people who wanted certain posters blocked from their computers was taken here a couple of years ago, the names that came up most frequently were Bush Admirer, Fresca, Max, and a few other names that probably all belonged to the same two or three right wingers.
Small minority? You mean like the 36 percent of people who approve of Bush, and the similar percentage who approve of Schwartzengroper? And what did Cheney get - 13 percent or something close?
Meanwhile more and more massive anti-war and anti-globalization demonstrations are taking place all over the globe and govenrments that at least claim to be anti-imperialist are taking power in more Latin American nations. The future belongs to the left, Bozo, and you belong with Kaiser Wilhelm.

Meyer - Take a look at the map of red states vs. blue states

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

The effect is even more pronounced if you break it down by counties. In that case most of California turns red. It's only the left wing urban centers like San Francisco, Boston, Los Angeles that are solid blue. The rest of America has sobered up and gone straight.

What exactly does this highly representative, of what, I don't know; chart mean?
Is it a coloring book project that you almost completed?
Pleas provide some thing. This is nothing.

You have a shadow election result.

He does not understand that it is people who count in a democracy, not empty fields, deserts, mountains, cattle ranges or corn fields. Kansas looks big on the map, but its whole population could fit into a couple of neighborhoods in New York City or into the Los Angeles suburbs.
Besides, that map is from an election that is already over, and was probably stolen anyway. Bush and Schwartzengroper are supported by small minorities today; Cheney probably couldn't get elected as blacksmith inspector in his alleged home county in Wyoming.

Bush has fallen so low he's breaking new ground on UNpopularity - with EVEN IN THE BRAINWASHED U.S. about 200 million people clearly saying he's the "The worst president in our lifetime"


not to mention world opinion-

Bush's legacy List:

Veterans ---------------------thousands die waiting for treatment
Social Security--------------Steal trillions; say it is a good thing
Education--------------------leave millions behind
Military-------------------------Over 1500 dead, over 15,000 wounded
Right to choose-------------Wants to outlaw all abortions
Student loans-----------------Bush family members only
Foreign Policy-----------------Take democracy or die
EPA--------------------------------What is that?
Lead, arsenic contamination-----------So?
Ozone layer--------------------We don't need that
Torture----------------------------It is a good thing
Press pimps---------------------I like that one
Hunger in America-----------Let them eat cake
Wars-----------------------------Everyone east of New York is a terrorist
Russia----------------------------I love Putoooon's eyes
Haiti-------------------------------Hadee what?
France---------------------------They help us in some war didn't they?
Middle East---------------------Will be one nation under our god
Colin Powell--------------------who?

as a freeper no one here actually expects you to refute this with FACTS - only to regurgitate your blind admiration, so no reply is needed..

Say Bush Admirer, why don't you move to Kansas (if you are not already there). You could round up all five people who are in favor or priviatizing Social Security, all three who think that Cheney is a fine leader, and both of those drunks down at the bar in Abileen who think that it is a good idea to drill for oil in national parks and form your own Bush/Cheney Admirer club. You better move fast, though, the state is declining in population at a dizzying pace due to bankruptcies and unemployment caused by Bush's economic policies. There may be no one left in Kansas by the time you get there except the two drunks in the bar - even the bartender will be gone to California after he gets laid off.

Being in therapy is great. I spend an hour just talking about myself. It's
kind of like being the guy on a date.

BA not only needs both medication and therapy, he also needs to read the great book What's the Matter with Kansas by Thomas Frank as well as the writings in which Noam Chomsky demonstrates beyond a doubt that the Social Security "crisis" is a hoax. The minor problems that do exist could be cured by stopping the cap on SS taxes for the higher income groups.

Much worse than a hoax, my friend.
All the money has been spent on hand outs to stock owners ( where the real [OUR] money is) and even then used as collateral in another loan that is owed to the Social Security Fund. You don't want to know the size of this debt.
They don't want to pay it back.
You may wish to listen to this audio download:
http://radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim050301.mp3

>The common perception is that liberal enclaves like San Francisco have simply gone off the deep end -- that voters are not at all representative of America and her core values.

Darn Frisco, they just made the internet what it is today.

BA, if you don't like it, leave it.

Once again Bush Admirer hits the mark. Chumpsky is a socialist who hates his own country and wants a dictatorship of the UN over proletariat slaves (that's you, Meyer).

Fetid pacifist surrender weasels love him because he represents the worst in humanity.

Noam Chomsky is in many ways the most important intellectual of our time and, in fact, one of the greatest thinkers in history. This is recognized virtually everywhere but in the United States - where most people have never heard of him due to censorship by the corporate media, which numbskulls such as Rush Limbaugh and Bush Admirer imagine is under the control of "the left." He is equally famed for his brilliant achievements in linquistics and for his brilliant writings on capitalism and imperialism. His razor-sharp intellect and and his great talent as a writer combine to make him one of the most dangerous opponents capitalism has ever had.
I wonder whether the Bobbsy Twins - Tramp and Bush Admirer - have read even one of his books between them.

Noam Chomsky
-is a socialist who hates his own country and wants a dictatorship of the UN over proletariat slaves-
what exactly are you babbling abut?
A quote or reference if you please.

Notice the tacit admission by these two boobs that they have not read even one of Noam's many books. Unlike their favorite authors (Tom Clancy and Ann Coulter) Chomsky deals with complex ideas which are beyond these two.

You're right, Meyer, they have not read any Chomsky or much else after DC comic killed Superman. Less strain that way on limited resources.

We have a flag salute. That is indoctrination.

" Therapy and dating
by Hex Wednesday, Nov. 16, 2005 at 9:31 PM

Being in therapy is great. I spend an hour just talking about myself. It's
kind of like being the guy on a date."

The funny thing about this spoof is I wasn't even on the internet at all the 16'th - I was sleepy and didn't feel like doing so even though I wanted to grab some Digital Radio Mondiale samples for the ongoing tests we're doing -

http://drm.sourceforge.net/
http://drm.sourceforge.net/installation.html
http://drm.sourceforge.net/download/DreamDocumentation.pdf
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/drm/DreamWebcamApp_ModeA_10kHz.exe?download

This is especially useful with the MELP plugin which I tested yesterday..

http://n1su.us/windrm/

http://www.rarewares.org/files/others/melp_dll.zip

MELP does quite well at only 2.4kbps..


I bet Ned can't even figure out how to run DRM

Flag salute. Then sit down in your stool. Until the bell rings.

So indoctrination is good. Everyday in every way as long as it's for the be-lovable leader that Bush Admirer admires.
That makes a certain kind of logic.
If you're insane.

How about being a successful attorney, author, and organizer of reform movements that have brought us car seat belts and safer products in general for the past several decades? What have you accomplished with your life to claim that Nader has never held a "real job"?
As for practicing racists, I think that term fits you rather than the people you named.
As for universal health insurance, every industrialized nation in the world that considers itself civilized makes this available to its people. If you don't want to be civilized, just refuse the medical care that is offered to you after it is socialized - you can do that in Britain, if you want to pay the kind of fees people pay in the United States for private medical care. Few people do.

Nader's an entrepreneur. That's why he doesn't have to look for work anymore. We need more entrepreneurs like him, who have somewhat original things to sell.

Unfortunately, most typical "entrepreneurs" who populate the chambers of commerce want to own a franchise of a multi-death corporation, suck up to some defense company, skirt the law on behalf of a larger company, or milk a local market to line their own pockets. They're just big fish in the small pond. They're big cogs driving the little cogs in the death machine :-)

Stay negative!

Flag salutes *are* indoctrination.

Why else would so many people even consider a flag (non)burning amendment to the Constitution? It's the stupidest thing i've heard of. That kind of garbage might fly in China, but it will not happen here -- and when it does, the flag waving "patriots" will have to goose-step over my dead body.

The flag is the brand of a country. Brands are for cattle.

I'll help you pack, if you promise to move to the mountains of Utah or Nevada with the militia loons who share your delusions. While there you can all pretend that it is still 1952 and that you are a real military force instead of a collection of beery losers. Maybe you can broadcast pictures of yourselves into space as representatives of the master race; that way there will be no danger of any space aliens developing an interest in coming here because there are intelligent life forms on this planet.