Date: Tuesday, June 03 @ 09:14:42 MDT

Topic: Privacy



Think About It. In the Stalin era of the Soviet Union, Americans arrested for spying disappeared into the gulag without an opportunity for legal assistance or even to contact their families.

My high school social science teacher illustrated how different America was from Russia by explaining to us the 14th Amendment to the Constitution: "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law."

We were proud to be citizens of a country where peoples' rights were guaranteed, protected against even the government. We foolishly believed those rights would last as long as the United States. Today, through presidential fiat, the 14th Amendment to the Constitution is no longer in force. The government can take liberty from American citizens without a trial.

Attorney General John Ashcroft asserts that President Bush has the power to hold any American citizen incommunicado, in solitary confinement for a month, a year, even life if Bush designates that citizen an "enemy combatant." The accused may not have access to a lawyer or visits by a member of the family or even a priest.

Shades of Joseph Stalin...

The prisoner has no right to know what proof the government has of the offense and is given no opportunity to present a defense.

If a court orders a hearing for habeas corpus, the government can assert that you're a danger to the country, and presto, even that right is revoked.

Ironic, isn't it? To protect our "freedom" and preserve our "liberty," the administration takes away the most basic right of all, our right to life, liberty and property protected by the courts. Yet that is exactly what happened to U.S. citizen John Padilla, a small-time crook now held in a Navy brig in Charleston. When Padilla was arrested, the attorney general crowed that he'd "disrupted an unfolding terrorist plot to attack the United States by exploding a radioactive 'dirty bomb.'"

It's possible that Ashcroft's charges are based on fact. It's also possible that they are totally bogus, tricked-up by an administration searching for any bit of "success" against terrorism. Padilla is a Muslim. He's a crook. He may even have contemplated a terrorist act. But he is also an American citizen. Until Ashcroft repealed the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, citizens had certain rights.

We'll never know the truth of Ashcroft's charges because the administration won't allow it to be challenged in court. If one American citizen can rot in jail for the rest of his life on the orders of one government official, it can happen to any of us. Today the excuse for setting aside the Constitution is to protect us from terrorists. Tomorrow it may be to protect the nation from people who believe that George W. Bush is a not very thoughtful man manipulated by far-right conservative warmongers into sending American troops to their deaths over fictitious threats of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

That's how it started in Nazi Germany. Hitler convinced a small core of Germany-first fanatics that Jews were a threat and the cause of their economic distress. "Good" Germans sat on their hands because they didn't want to be unpatriotic or unsupportive of their nation's leader.

It can happen here. It may already have started.

John David Rose is a long-time Hilton Head Islander and political observer.

***

This article comes from Friends of Liberty

http://www.friendsofliberty.com

The URL for this story is:

http://www.friendsofliberty.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1027

..."Germany First fanatics" think KOBE.

When you think of Death Camp Prison Guards: Think KOBE.

When you think of enemies of the Constitution and of Individual Liberty: Think KOBE.

When you think of mindless adherence to a morally bankrupt party line: Think KOBE.

When you think of bucktoothed morons: Think KOBE.

When you think of a wreck on blocks in the front yard: Think KOBE.

When you think of Gas Chambers and Showers: Think KOBE.

These are kind of mindless fanatics that made the Third Reich possible.

While they may try to claim to be Conservatives they are not. They are fascists. The two are not the same. The difference between a KOBE type and a Real Conservative is that the Conservative actually has a set of Principles, a sense of Honor, and is fundamentally decent.

All characteristics totally lacking in any person who would associate with a group like KOBE.

"the Conservative actually has a set of Principles, a sense of Honor, and is fundamentally decent. "

Thank you for the compliment. And for finally admitting that we're not all the scourage of the Earth.

Thanks for submitting your KOBE membership application. We'll get back to you soon.

www.kobehq.com

Real conservatives have honor. It's the parasitic maggots

that parade as conservatives that bite my butt.

These assholes just want to gain off the suffering or deprivation of the defenseless. Like Bush and his gang

(like Clinton was any different) of criminal cabal.

Our country can be better than this, without the blood suckers. Our futures has been sold out by thieves and killers dressed as leaders.

Just like you can have bad anarchists and bad liberals, you can have bad conservatives.

To put it in the words of someone that posted on IMC recently (my memory fails me of exactly who):

"Defining the enemy as conservatives is very narrow and incomplete."

But I firmly believe that GWB is acting in what he believes to be the best interests of the American people. I've seen nothing otherwise indicative.

Your words are agitprop.

Eric:"But I firmly believe that GWB is acting in what he believes to be the best interests of the American people. I've seen nothing otherwise indicative. "

You are either blind, an idiot or a liar...

....or maybe a blind idiot liar.....

Yup...that's it....only rational explanation....

...and I remember an oath about upholding the constitution, an oath he has consistently and willfully violated, not doing what "he" thinks best for the American people's interest...hell, any two bit dicator can make that claim...

like taxations without representations, can both be thrown into the Boston Harbor as far as I'm concerned.

The DOW Jones Industrial average broke 9000 today, on it's way back to pre 9-11 heights.

Mark my words. In six months it will be tapping up on 11,000 yet again.

Long live Capitalism! Mankind's greatest invention!

...and you'll still be working at Kirkland.....

Holding a few shares there I see. (from your enthusiasm)

maybe a fund that is fixed against the DOW average?

good on you anyway. There is no problem with an increacing divide between rich and poor because it may just mean everyone is getting richer at different rates.

If it reall was a zero sum game the great depression would have been all fun and games for the poor people

Spottie: "There is no problem with an increacing divide between rich and poor because it may just mean everyone is getting richer at different rates "

...that has to go down as the stupidest post of the week, but it's early and Spottie's mom is still at the hairdresser...so....

...than an index of 30 major stocks. It is one Market and does not necessarily reflect what is going on in the economy.

Better are:

The Index of Leading Economic indicators.

GDP Deflator

M2 Growth or Decline.

The Dow is like a Riverboat Casino. It is gambling and nothing much more than that.

Eloquent point there my friend! I would say "How soon we forget!" but it has been some 70 years since the the stock market crash and the ensuing depression. So it hasn't exactly been "soon" that we've forgotten.

I'd love to hear some of these fifth columnists make their arguments on why, exactly, if the undermining of the American economy (redistribution of wealth) would be such a good thing for the poor, why this wasn't witnessed by the events of 1929.

Diogenes, doesn't sound like your portfolio is doing too well old boy! Guess the glass is half empty on your side of the table!

The DOW is the accepted standard of the layperson, indicative of market trends and of the American economy. Those of us that don't have the time to go out and get an economics degree in our spare time, simply look to the DOW to give us an indication of trends. It is very accurate too.

http://mypage.direct.ca/r/rsavill/Thecrash.html

I've been watching it for years. I remeber (back in '92?) the very day it crossed 4000! We were excited even back then! Even in the events after the wake of 9-11, the DOW never got lower than about 7500!

This resilient economy that is America, is not going anywhere. It's damn near unshakable.

America is beyond a doubt, the greatest and most successful nation in history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the faker is ready to play?

kasdjklsadfjkadls;fjdsakl;

adskgjklsdjsdlk;fjsdkalfjsdaklfjlksda

aksdjsdlak;fjdsakl;fjsdklfjsakl

Your anti-psychotic medications are ready.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Americana...

Well i'd like to tell you all about my dream, it's a place

Where strip malls abound and diversion's mere moments away

Where culture's defined by the

Ones least refined

And you'll be left behind

If you don't fit in

It's all distorted

In americana my way

Well my dream has come true

My vision has come true

Now give me my cable, fast food, four-by's, tat's right away

I want it right now cause my generation don't like to wait

My future's determined by

Thieves, thugs, and vermin

It's quite an excursion

But it's okay

Everything's backwards

In americana my way

Well my dream has come true

My vision has come true

I'm a product

Of my environment

So don't blame me, i just work here

My rights are denied by

Those least qualified

Trading profit for pride

But it's okay

Everything's backwards

In americana my way

My nightmare has come true

My nightmare has come true

Yeah, it's all coming true

I'm mentally unstable.

As I predicted two days ago, the American economic slump is officially over!

This is evidenced today by the incredibly sharp jump in the Dow Jones Industrial average, up more than 100 points, rising to nearly 9200 this morning.

For those of you that don't realize the significance of this sudden and steep rise in the DJIA, please allow me to elaborate:

You can see by the provided graph that:

At ~9000 the DJIA had what we in the market call “a resistance point”. In this case, it was a quadruple resistance point, as it had already been tested thrice previously (before it was broken achieved yet again two days ago).

In layman’s terms, what this means is that each time the market rose to 9000, many many individuals and large companies, orgs, mutual funds, etc. stepped in to sell for profits, or to get out after recovering some of their losses from the quick decline brought about by 9-11, corporate accounting scandals, and a slumping economy.

Each time a resistance level gets “tested”, it becomes stronger. What this means is that this resistance level dictates the trend.

What we see from the graph is the trend was that people were buying at ~7500 and selling at ~9000.

This trend has been the case for the last year, about the time when lows were being seen in the market from our aforementioned tragedies.

Ladies and Gentlemen, that trend has been officially busted!!

We are now on our way to making new highs in the market and this is indicative of newfound confidence of investors in our rising economic conditions. These conditions have been brought about by slashed interest rates and lacerated taxes. Thank you Mr. Greenspan and Mr. Bush!

(As an aside on that last bit, I would suggest that if you are thinking of refinancing your existing mortgage, or buying a new home, you do so quickly. These low interest rates we currently have will not be around much longer! Strike while the iron’s hot!!)

Now, the detractors will try to say that the unemployment rate, consumer confidence and blah blah blah are all still low and problematic. Well folks, just watch all of those things follow the market and begin to pick right back up, as is proven by historical analysis of market trends.

Rest assured, the Bulls have regained control and things are looking up!

And you heard it here first! I challenge each and every one of you who reads this to return to this very thread one year from now and prove me wrong! I’ll be here rubbing your noses in it and gloating (which I do quite well)!

P.S. I’m going on vacation next week, so I won’t be around to keep you liberals in check.

I’m counting on daveman, Fresca, and BA to stop by routinely and administer your daily pummelings.

I will be on a cruise to Cozumel and Belize. While I’m catching some rays and sipping Margaritas at the pool, I’ll be thinking of all my leftist friends here at LA IMC! (Sheepdog, if you’ll give me your address, I’ll be glad to send you a postcard!)

Play nice and have a wonderful day!!

I received my ,000 income tax return check about 3 days ago, and I look forward to a scuba diving weekend in Cabo San Lucas with my girlfriend, and the requisite hours sunning on the beaches doing absolutely NOTHING.

The idiot lights in the mind of the leftist barely light the vast empty space up there. If they would simply make use of the system which has been painstakingly set up for the benefit of ALL Americans (aka Capitalist Economics), they can get their slice of the pie. Instead, they choose to whine and moan. How can one get a tax return if one doesnt invest time and money into the system in some form or another? Perhaps if they spent less time trying to DESTROY the government, it might reward them as it does most Americans.

If you shit in your bed, you can complain that your bed is not as good as others because you dont like the smell, but you are the one who did the dirty deed. They will either have to clean up their act, or learn to love the consequences of being a dissident.

The Mexican Revolutionary Workers' Party (the PRT) has been notified that a racist gringo with Zionist leanings in coming down to Cabo San Lucas with ,000.00 in cash. The Mexican Federales have been notified too. Have a nice trip.

Hasta luego!

That's quite a big fat tax return you received! The likes of which I am certain you'd never see under previous Democraptic regimes.

Be sure to throw two bits into the Republican coffers just to say thanks. I would say consider sending LA IMC a few pennies (after all, they do spend long hours entertaining us) but then that would be like encouraging them. It is our duty as capitalist loving Americans to do all we can to discourage these freaks, and to show them the errors of their ways.

So whatever you do, don't send them a penny.

I certainly hope that you have a wonderful time on your vacation and you come back refreshed and invigorated and ready to smack a few lefty's around! Although, you may want to consider steering away from that Devoy thing. He's an insignificant, marginalized, impetuous idiot and we all recognize that. He's just try to divert you from your primary mission, which is to make these fifth columnists look like the idiots they are!

Not that that's too difficult.

Anyway, thanks again for the comments! It's the weekend, so go out and grab a cold brew and don't forget to toast the President!

We've also contacted the Federales to inform them about a certain drug deal underway in Cabo San Lucas. Ashcroft has been informed that KOBE SBM is leaving the country on a tourist package designed to provide sex with underaged boys.

"It rewards those who have become LEGITIMATELY successful for whatever reason."

Yo, KOBE, these are few and far between. Most of the wealth has been accumulated by favortism, theft and violence.

You make these sweeping statements without any backup whatsoever. The ranks of the well-off (people making 100K a year or more) are in the millions of people. Just because you are not one of them doesnt change a thing, now does it.

"Most of the wealth has been accumulated by favortism, theft and violence."

C'mon Sheepdog, that's simply a ridiculously false statement. That sentiment reduces any conversation to absurdity.

Don't bother engaging this FReeper. He's not here to dialog you. He's here to badger you. His group of supporters is not a group. It's just a single person. Why waste IndyMedia bandwidth?

You are an ass. Go find some place to hide where no one ever disagrees with your petulant intellect.

Hey KOBE SBM, are you still seeing devoy behind everything that goes on around you? Do you still here is voice? Am I devoy? Is Diogenes devoy? Is Bill Clinton devoy? Boooooh!

devoy is behind everything, SBM. That strange thing that happened today? devoy! That item on your desk that was out of place? devoy! That sound in the middle of the night? devoy!

Yes, KOBE SBM, devoy is omnipresent. devoy is the Internet.

Now, take your meds!

It's not my fault! The Man is keeping me down! The world owes me a living! Not that I should have to work for it; I should just get checks!

And other nonsense that absolves me of all responsibility for my situation.

No one is asking for a check for nothing. Your claims are B.S. Most welfare goes to corporations in the form of "useless research" and "bomb a foreign country and rebuild it" programs. The Department of Defense is the biggest welfare brat in the US. You dispute this, of course, but who pays these bastards? We do. We pay them with our taxes. We do not pay them by choice.

You can't leave people with the freedom to fight back when you are busy plundering the nation. So, somethings got to give - either the Bush Junta completes their Buttfuck the Constitution Trifecta by eviscerating Civil Liberties, giving them the authority to lock up trouble makers who insist on speaking the truth, or they have to give up on plundering. Which do you think these bastards will attempt to do?

To Airic:

Oh tell me more about the wonders of Bushonomics:

Jobless Claims Surge: http://money.cnn.com/2003/06/05/news/economy/jobless/index.htm

US Weekly Job Claims Surge Investor Confidence down (Financial Times): http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1054416454352&p=1012571727162

“Surpisingly bad data on Thursday shook investor confidence in the US Economy’s immediate prospects. ...”

Factory Orders Slump - biggest decline in 17 Months: http://money.cnn.com/2003/06/05/news/economy/factory_orders.reut/index.htm

“... led by machinery, transportation and electrical equipment.”

These, by the way, are producer goods which indicates a future slump in manufacturing; which indicates more job losses.

Middle Class Tax Burden Set to Rise: http://www.msnbc.com/news/921802.asp



As for the Dow Jones it is an index of Stock Prices in a Market which is subject to manipulation. It is not the economy and to believe that the Dow Jones reflects anything other than Stock Prices in ONE Market is to bespeak a vast lack of knowledge of Economics.

Better indicators are those of actual production and employment. I do not like being the bearer of bad news but they are not positive.

The Bush Junta is busy “Fiddling” while the economy burns. But that’s O.K.. They and their Cronies know which way the crash will go - after all they are the Engineers fo the destruction of the economy.

I heard that the National dept ( which is owed to us) is

now at 44 trillion?

It must have been a typo it's ONLY (as Listed) at a wee

bit over six trillion.

...is the estimated total of the National Debt plus unfunded liabilities -such as Social Security which was plundered by Clinton to make it appear we did not still have a defecit.

Insiders' big stock sales may be omen

Experts disagree on whether flood of sales foretells trouble for market



By Greg Zuckerman

THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Sunday, June 8, 2003

Here's some cold water for a red-hot stock market: Executives are rushing to sell their companies' shares at a pace not seen since 2001.

More than .1 billion in shares was sold in May by corporate insiders, the most such selling in 24 months. By comparison, monthly stock sales by insiders failed to exceed .4 billion during each of the previous five months, and just 0 million of sales took place in January, according to research firm Thomson Financial.

The moves are a concern because insider buying and selling -- by people who presumably are the most knowledgeable about their companies' prospects -- have been good predictors of the market's direction. For example, many executives sold their holdings in early 2000, just before a bear market in stocks began. Now, many again are locking in profits -- especially in health care, technology and finance stocks -- on the heels of the market's recent gains.

Some argue that investors shouldn't worry about the rash of selling. After all, executives were scarred by the bear market like everyone else, and may be selling because they don't trust that the market's rally will last rather than because bad earnings news is around the bend.

Still, the selling -- from such savvy executives as Microsoft Corp.'s chief executive, Steven Ballmer, and Dell Computer Corp. Chairman Michael Dell, among others -- could portend trouble for earnings.

Because of changes in corporate disclosure rules, insider selling may be more important an indicator than ever. New regulations imposed in the past year or so mean executives are much less able to share information with analysts about early signs of how a quarter or year is shaping up. As such, trading by executives is one of the few ways left for investors to get an inside look at how companies feel about their prospects, some argue. How they vote with their feet is what is key, these people say.

Dell sold almost 0 million in shares in late May, compared with more than 0 million of shares sold during all of last year. His wife, Susan Dell, sold another 1 million shares, for .1 million.

Mike Maher, a Dell spokesman, said he couldn't comment on the sales and pointed out that Michael Dell remains the largest holder of the company's stock, with almost billion in shares and options. His family owns an additional .2 billion of the stock. But Dell in the past has bought shares when he thought they were cheap, according to an executive close to him, and sold them when he viewed the shares as expensive. This could suggest that his recent move stems from a belief that the company's recent runup may not be warranted.

Dell sold his shares at prices of .56 to .01; on Friday, shares dropped 58 cents to .35 in Nasdaq trading. Other Dell officials, including Chief Operating Officer Kevin Rollins and Chief Financial Officer James Schneider, also sold shares recently.

As for Ballmer, who has sold almost billion in shares recently, he issued a press release last month saying, "I remain excited about the potential for our technology to change people's lives, and I remain as committed to Microsoft as ever." A Microsoft spokeswoman added that Ballmer continues to hold significant holdings of the company's shares. He currently holds about billion of Microsoft shares.

Ballmer sold his shares at .89 to .90; on Friday, Microsoft stock dropped 42 cents to 23.67 on the Nasdaq.

Microsoft founder Bill Gates has been a prolific seller of his shares for years. He has sold nearly billion of Microsoft stock this year, according to data compiled by Washington Service.

Some analysts say insider moves are an increasingly important indicator. "Who better than directors to know what their companies' near-term profits outlook is like?" says Bijal Shah, senior equity strategist for Société Générale, the big French bank. "Directors tend to sell stock in their own companies if they believe their company will miss analysts' forecasts and buy if they believe it will beat forecasts. . . . The ratio of directors selling relative to directors buying is an excellent indicator of the outlook for company profits."

By that measure, the current selloff is indeed worrisome. On the 14 occasions when there has been as much selling relative to buying as in the past month, the Standard & Poor's 500 stock index has on average fallen 6 percent in the subsequent six months and 9 percent in the following year, says Lon Gerber, director of insider research at Thomson Financial. (So far this year, the S&P 500 is up about 10 percent.)

Other experts are less concerned about the insider selling. Executives sell stock for all kinds of reasons. Some need to raise money for various expenses, while others simply try to diversify their holdings. Indeed, many academics say stock purchases by executives, rather than their selling, are much better indicators of where earnings and the market are going. That's because the only reason an executive will buy shares is because the executive thinks they are likely to go up.

In addition, stock sales always pick up in May, as firms come out of first-quarter lockup periods in April, when executives are restricted from making moves. And with stocks coming out of a three-year bear market, executives have even more reason to sell. Many missed out on cashing in options before and during the downturn, or are just nervous about the market's outlook.

"Executives have just experienced the same bear market we have" and aren't above getting nervous about the stock market like other investors, says Chuck Zender, managing director of Leuthold Group in Minneapolis, a research firm. "You have to put more emphasis on their buying" rather than their selling.

The overall figures on executive stock sales actually are higher than they appear because Thomson Financial excludes any sales valued at more than million -- such as those of Ballmer and Dell -- to prevent big sales from skewing overall figures.

Tech executives have long been among the biggest sellers of shares, in large part because they get so much of their pay in stock options compared with other industries.

Health-related companies stand out because of a surge in recent insider selling. For example, six executives at Genentech, a stock that has almost doubled this year, have combined to sell 742,500 shares valued at million in the past month, according to Thomson. Among them, Chief Financial Officer Louis Lavigne Jr. sold almost 210,000 shares.

Coventry Health Care Inc., whose stock is up almost 50 percent this year, has also seen selling. Eight Coventry executives sold 454,000 shares in May.

 

 

 

Find this article at:

http://www.statesman.com/business/content/auto/epaper/editions/sunday/business_e31ed848021541f00077.html

But can we get back to the SUBJECT of this thread.

IN CASE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN the thread title is and I quote:-

"Your Bill of Rights Repealed" and then John David Rose the starter of this thread starts yapping on about the 14th ammendment??????????



HELLO!!!!!!!!!!! can anyone see what is wrong with this?

Answers on a postcard please.......

That was the best laugh I have had for days!

... should have been the 4th Amendment which guarantees the right against "unreasonable search and SEIZURE'". However the 5th Amendment is related by the "Due Process" Clause".

Amendment IV:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Amendment V:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

These are tied together and reinforced by Section I of the 14th Amendmen:

"Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

What this means is the Reichsfuhrer Ashcroft's holding of people without trial or right of Jury Trial violates their RIGHTS under the Constitution.

This is what formerly seperated the United States from a Tinhorn Banana Republic.

Ah, the progress brought by the Bush Junta.

The starter of the thread actually quoted the 14th ""No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law.""

The full opening paragraph of the 14th is "Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Bill of Rights Repealed???????????



I don't think so.

I spotted your DISINFORMATION

...I quoted the entirety of Section I of the 14th. I also quoted the 4th and 5th in their entirety and they all apply to the case of Jose Padilla.

The anecdote related by the author of the original post is referenced to the 14th but in the broader picture the 4th and 5th Amendments, violated by Reichsfuhrer Ashcroft, are, last I checked part of the "Bill of Rights". So, the authors broader field of Herr Ashcroft's violation of the Bill of Rights is sustained.

Interestingly, and I draw no firm conclusion, but something I have seen at a couple of Web Sites are a Picture of Jose Padilla next to the Police Rendering of John Doe #2 from the Oklahoma City Bombing. Mr. Padilla is the spitting image of the Police Sketch. Tantalizing. If one were to suspect Government, Bush I, involvement in the OKC Bombing one might raise a large question mark. Data insufficient to draw a conclusion, but nonetheless interesting.

You state that the injustice to Padilla is a violation of the 4th and 5th, which are part of the Bill of Rights. So why the dis-mis-information?

Could you not have made your case without invoking the very emotional "Bill of Rights" title?

If you really knew what you were talking about you wouldn't even have to mention Padilla was a US citizen. That fact makes NO DIFFERENCE with respects to The Bill of Rights, but I am sure you knew that.

...emotionally charged issue for those of us who take it seriously (and don't take this to mean I am implying you don't).

Any subject you argue on passionately is by definition an emotional issue. I do not necessarily consider that a bad thing.

The Boston Tea Party was an act of Passionate Emotionalism.

I did not write the original post so my defense of the author's position goes only so far as I am in agreement with him. Padilla may well be a scumbag, but the principle at play is that if we are to remain a nation of Laws and not of arbitrary dictat then the Laws must apply equally to all from highest to lowest. It is the only meaningful form of equality in the realm of Government and Society.

..that being that I suspect that the author was trying to set up his argument. Was mention of the 14th necessary? It was if he was going to use the anecdote he prefaced his article with.

He did not establish the connection in the article but there is one in the form of the "Due Process" clause found in both the 5th and 14th Amendments.

Logically it was not necessary to make the argument. Sound reasoning, sloppy writing.

""Sound reasoning, sloppy writing""

Until proven otherwise I stick with my initial observations, sloppy writing indicates a sloppy mind which indicates sloppy reasoning.

My initial observations are reinforced by the fact that the starter of this thread NEVER before made a post to la.indymedia and since his initial post he has made NO OTHER posts to back up or clarify the points he tried to make.

no more discussion needed on this very sloppy (your words) thread......

...I still believe the original post to have the basics of a valid argument i.e., Ashcroft stands in violation of the Constitution and such actions reflect a contempt for the Constitution and it's protections.

However, nothing new there.

a discussion at last!

...the First Amendment was repealed, and we no longer can post our own individual opinions on such a public forum as la-imc.

Oh, wait...

...that davemoron's mother didn't abort him.

That the DJIA is up more than 100 points from where I pointed to it breaking through resistance levels a little more than a week ago.

Once again, I'm a genius.

The next trading range is between 9500 and 10500.

The economy is on the upswing. Put that in your liberal pipes and smoke it.

HAR!

The economy is on the upswing? Who are you fooling? NOBODY! How many people dropped off the 'Official" unemployment count because they were out of work for so long? How many more people lost their jobs this month? How many new jobs were created?

I guess if you're rich, the only things that matters is your investments. The rest of us sit here and worry where next month's rent/mortage payment is going to come from...

"Now, the detractors will try to say that the unemployment rate, consumer confidence and blah blah blah are all still low and problematic. Well folks, just watch all of those things follow the market and begin to pick right back up, as is proven by historical analysis of market trends."

Now, I will address YOU specifically, Brian O'Connor:

Quit whining. Get off the internet. Go look for a job.

It's not going to fall into your lap while you sit there bellyaching at the keyboard.

In America, there is no excuse.

...make the Rules!

I guess I could just venture-capital my way into the ranks of the wealthy...oh wait a minute...that takes lots of money. Maybe I could start my own business...hold on...that takes mucho dinero, too.

Hmmm, I wonder if McDonald's is hiring?

>I guess if you're rich, the only things that matters is your investments.

Quit guessing! It makes you look even more stupid. No one makes it on just their salary anymore, unless you just want to live hand-to-mouth. You save money and you invest it. You get your money to work for you as well as you working. This is no secret and people of all economic status' participate in it everyday to the degree that they can. It's become so easy to do it doesn't even take much effort anymore. If you're not on board, that's your problem.

And Eric is right, people who are worried about where their next meal is coming from are not on-line talking about it, so I doubt you are in that predicament.

Only 6% officially are unemployed. That tells us that 94% are gainfully employed. 94%!! That's a bunch of people all making sure the wheels are turning.

>The rest of us sit here and worry where next month's rent/mortage payment is going to come from...

Whereever it's coming from, pay it! Damnit, I gotta pay my bills. Cough up a lung if you have to but don't become a drain on the rest of us. Too many people in this country are laying in the welfare hammock living off other peoples hard work. Don't become on of them.

Or you could get yourself an education, apply yourself in a rewarding career, and work your way up to a decent salary and perks. You could save a little bit for retirement, stash away some green in an IRA, and invest some for Autumn years.

You don't have to be wealthy to be comfortable.

Or you could sit there, whining and bellyaching about how everything should be given to you on a silver platter.

>I guess I could just venture-capital my way into the ranks of the wealthy...oh wait a minute...that takes lots of money. Maybe I could start my own business...hold on...that takes mucho dinero, too.

I guess you could quit before you even put out any effort. That's how all successful people became that way.

Another reason I don't worry about libs ever effecting policy or economic cinditions.

"I guess you could quit before you even put out any effort. That's how all successful people became that way."

I guess that the secret of my "success" is out.

Boy, I sure do believe the gub'ment when they tell me things, like that the unemployment rate is 6%. I would never even dare question them on their figures.

I have some other Fairy Tales for you, too. Like that the economy isn't suffering from DEFLATION for the first time since the 1930's.

And your IRA will be worth something when you retire. HA! What is a company's stock worth when it declares bankruptcy? ZERO!

Sob, sniff, whimpy, whine, moan.

What is you're plan then there bri? Overthrow da big bawd gubment that's repressing you (chortle)?

If you hate it in America so much, then why don't you leave? No one's holding you hostage here. Get on that plane to Cuba. Fly away little sparrow! Go be free!

Or shut your cake-hole and go get a job.

This is not true. For instance, United Airlines recently declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy and they're still afloat. While a companies stock takes a big hit when it files for bankruptcy, it doesn't necessarily go to zero. There have been many companies that have declared bankrupcy and recovered. Chrysler Corporation is a great example.

BTW, if you can afford to pick up some shares of United Airlines right now, it's an excellent buy. Word has it they're going to recover.

...that the Dow is reflective of the health of the Economy overall.

BULL SHIT.

The Dow is one index of one segment of the economy.

Durable Goods is Down.

Transportation? Ditto.

Unemployment Claims? Up, up, and away.

It would be nice if the Economy really were on an upswing. However the Broader indicators are not reflective of that as the Financial Times recently reported.

The American Economy is still Tanking.

No amount of "Irrational Exuberance" in the Dow is going to change that.

He's the sort of guy that could win a million dollar lottery and then complain that he has to pay tax on his winnings. In short, a whiner.

The DOW is in fact, an extremely reliable and readily available meter that is indicative of market trends and economic health.

"Durable Goods is Down. Transportation? Ditto. Unemployment Claims? Up, up, and away. "

Like I've said now thrice:

"Now, the detractors will try to say that the unemployment rate, consumer confidence and blah blah blah are all still low and problematic. Well folks, just watch all of those things follow the market and begin to pick right back up, as is proven by historical analysis of market trends."

Facts are facts. The economy is recovering, and pretty soon you liberals won't have a pebble to throw at GWB come 2004. Better stomp your feet and pout away about those missing WMD!

...an optimist. However, the indicators of economic growth and vibrancy are fairly uniformly running negative.

Bushonomics is a failure.

Crony Capitalism insulates the insiders from economic reality.

The Bush Family is not suffering. They are making money hand over fist as they are heavily invested in businesses deriving benefit from Government Spending.

The Bushes could give a shit about you, your family, your neighbor, or your neighbor's family.

You may choose to swallow the spin if you wish.

It is still more or less a free country.

Although less free than when Duhbya took office.

Once again Diogenes, you're personal agenda keeps you out of touch with reality:

http://www.conference-board.org/economics/consumer.cfm



The Conference Board's Consumer Confidence Index, which increased sharply in April, posted a moderate increase in May. The Index now stands at 83.8 (1985=100), up from 81.0 in April. The Expectations Index rose to 94.4 from 84.8.

Consumers’ short-term expectations posted another significant improvement. Those anticipating an improvement in business conditions over the next six months rose to 22.8 percent from 18.9 percent. Consumers anticipating conditions to worsen fell to 9.7 percent from 12.3 percent.

The employment outlook was also more favorable. Consumers anticipating more jobs to become available increased to 17.8 percent from 16.4 percent, while those expecting fewer jobs fell to 17.6 percent from 20.9 percent. The proportion of consumers anticipating an increase in their incomes slipped to 17.0 percent from 17.2 percent.



Even Joe Blo thinks you're wrong.

...is nice but it is only one indicator. And it is based on opinion not real hard production. As one of a group of indicators it is useful, but it does not define the economy.

Here's one that does: Job Market worst since last time a Bush was in office:http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=716&e=5&u=/ap/20030617/ap_on_bi_ge/jobs_outlook

My advice is to short the Market on the next surge.

You'd like that wouldn't you? Every investor shorting capitalism into cataclysmic oblivion, submersing this nation into an unimaginable pit of fire and damnation, the likes of which a humanist would never hope to see.

Talk about "unemployment" being up! Talk about "durable goods" being down! Try "starving women and children". Try "poverty casting people into shackles". Try "panhandling on the upsurge as a profession".

But those are the things Diogenes wants to see in America. Short the markets into desparation. Fuck the masses. Fuck the 94% that do earn an honest wage. Fuck you, and fuck your children.

You're a sick individual, Diogenes. A wolf in sheeps clothing. You should be hog tied, beaten to a pulp, and put on the first boat to North Korea.

Eric-darling,

You seem to put stock in Consumer Confidence rising over the last two months. Do you know why it rose? Because it has never been any lower than two months ago. So of course it will rise a little: it can't get much worse!

Do you know what DEFLATION is, Erica? When prices spiral in a downward manner, soon followed by benefits and wages? That was the word YOUR guy, Alan Greenspan, used only last week to describe what investors might be looking at in the near future.

And what about the 8.1% unemployment rate in Silicon Valley? Are you saying that all those educated, hard-working programmers are just lazy? Or is the economy really in the toliet? Hmmmm...

All you people saying 'Everything is OK' must truly be insulated from the hardships ordinary people are suffering these days. Still got those 'rich-folk' blinders, Eric and Brigg?

For those who suggest I leave this continent because I disagree with their opinions, I offer the following: Is it truly an American value to ostracize all those who would reject the mainstream opinion? Should the only ones allowed in the country be those whom mimic and parrot the 'official' doctrine? Boy, you right-wingers don't seem very democratically principled! You seem more like a bunch of bigots and ideologues.

Heaven to Betsy! You mean a whole 8 (out of every 100) computer programmers in Silicon Valley are in the market for a job?? Goodness gracious, I thought that number would be a lot higher after the dot com bust and the internet Emperor being found unclothed!

"For those who suggest I leave this continent because I disagree with their opinions,"

Notice the liberal spin here folks. No one suggested he leave because he disagrees with an opinion. The suggest he leave because he hates America, feels like he's being oppressed, and in general has little chance of succeeding in a system where his every desire isn't just lavished upon him at his beckon whim.

This man needs a socialist society for him to blossom into his full potention. Try China, Brian. Although I hear they're becoming more of a capitalist society every day.

Perhaps Cuba.

... you need a better understanding of what shorting the Market means. It does nothing to the economy to short the Market. It is a dispassionate calculation that the market is over valued and that a correction to reality is due. It's over due. The market has been getting support from the Plunge Protection Team. While their pockets are deep they are not limitless. The Market will correct and as I believe it currently over valued it will go down.

A good indicator of this reality is "Insider Sales" of Stock and Stock Options - which are up. Translation: CEO's and other highly placed individuals view the Market as Over Valued and are unloading Stock at what they perceive as a the best price they are likely to see for a while.

I agree.

It is not unpatriotic to make money.

No one suggested he leave because he disagrees with an opinion.-

- Try China, Brian. Although I hear they're becoming more

of a capitalist society every day. Perhaps Cuba.

I also know what would happen if every investor, all at once decided to "short the market". Business would be bankrupted and capitalism would collapse. Exactly those things you advocate.

And it the wake of crumbling corporations, poverty, unemployment, starvation, and death would skyrocket. It would be apocalyptic. Again, advocated by you.

Now either you advocate these things out of naivety or out of cunning. And I've followed enough of your points to recognize the latter to be truer than the former.

And as far as suggesting that Brian leave the country, I do so out of love. I simply want to see the poor bastard succeed is all. I feel like he has a better chance of functioning in a socialist society, instead of a democratic and free capitalist one. Which is what America is. No place for whiners, you see.

Eric,

You like to tell others what they think.

You say I hate America. I say this land has problems.

You say I feel oppressed. I refuse to be oppressed.

You say I will never make it in the 'system'. I say I need no system to realize my self-worth.

You say I am socialist and should move to China or Cuba. I vow to fight the Empire in the land where I was born.

Your simplified version of the world must be very boring. Everything you say lacks enthusiasm. Your lack of a life is why you post here so much. Alas, had I as much time as you to spend here, I would give you the taunting of a lifetime! So for now, let me say this about that: your kind are a minority where I live, and that's the way I like it. Everyday, conservative, narrow-minded simpletons like you are being faded. Vive la difference!

Well Luke Skywalker, can't say I didn't try to help you. But you keep right on pissing into that fan, if it makes you feel better.

I'm sure, with a little help from Yoda and Obi Wan, as well as Diogenes and Sheepdog, you'll eventually overcome the forces of Darth Vader and the the "dark side" (snicker!).

"Your simplified version of the world must be very boring. Everything you say lacks enthusiasm."

As far as my world being boring, well that's what I have you liberals for! Entertainment!! But since you mentioned that my enthusiam has been waning, I'll try to use a few more exclamation marks for you in the future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Your lack of a life is why you post here so much."

Then why do you post here so much? You've been playing paddle-ball with me all day. And while we're on the subject, why do Diogenese and Sheepdog post here so much? (BTW, today is the first day I''ve posted here in nearly two weeks.)

"Alas, had I as much time as you to spend here, I would give you the taunting of a lifetime!"

Taunt away, silly Frenchman. Or tell us all why you are such a busy, busy person.

"So for now, let me say this about that: your kind are a minority where I live, and that's the way I like it."

Where is that? You already in Cuba? Good for you! Didn't think you'd get there that quickly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Everyday, conservative, narrow-minded simpletons like you are being faded. Vive la difference!"

Yep. You've got a vise like grip on reality, don't cha there, Luke? Use the force on me, Pado Wan. We're the minority. That's why Fox News is the number one source for fair and balance news. Because narrow-minded conservative Americans are becoming fewer and further between. Yep. That's the ticket.

National Review Online reports on a bizarre exchange between Sen. Russ Feingold, a Wisconsin Democrat, and appeals court nominee Bill Pryor at the latter's Judiciary Committee hearing:

Feingold: News accounts also report that you even went so far as to reschedule a family vacation at Disney World in order to avoid Gay Day. In light of this record, can you understand why a gay plaintiff or defendant would feel uncomfortable coming before you as a judge? . . .

Pryor: . . . As far as my family vacation is concerned, my wife and I had two daughters who at the time of that vacation were six and four, and we made a value judgment. And that was our personal decision. . . .

Feingold: Well, I certainly respect going to Disney World with two daughters. I've done the same thing. But are you saying that you actually made that decision on purpose to be away at the time of that--

Pryor: We made a value judgment and changed our plan and went another weekend.

Feingold: Well, I--I appreciate your candor on that.

http://www.nationalreview.com/lopez/lopez061703.asp

So now the Senate is interrogating people on their family vacation plans? We can always count on those loving, caring, compassionate, tolerant liberals. That's some right to privacy we've got.