The war at home
It's time to defend our liberties before Patriot Act II makes protest a crime
BY DAVID VALDES GREENWOOD
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IT IS TIME for the peace movement to fight for freedom at home. While protesters chanted in the streets, the Bush administration used the cover of war in Iraq to design new encroachments on our civil liberties. In addition to backing a proposed bill that would permanently extend the Patriot Act, the Justice Department stealthily drafted the even harsher Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003, commonly referred to as Patriot Act II. That document reveals a concerted strategy to restrict our rights of citizenship — our freedom of association, our rights to due process and appeal, even our access to information.

Our legislators have not yet tangibly demonstrated the will to stop this onslaught. Nor are they likely to do so unless they are made to believe that constituents will vote them out of office if they do not. To make that happen, the " peace " movement must become a protest movement, and increase its numbers across the political spectrum. There’s no time to waste; if protesters don’t act soon, they could face a time when our laws make such organizing not only difficult, but criminal.

Few Americans are even aware of the proposed Patriot Act II. This ignorance is unsurprising when you consider that its predecessor — which made sweeping changes in criminal investigation and judicial process — was passed in less than a month’s time, largely unexamined even by members of Congress.

Patriot Act II’s various provisions extend the life and the applicability of Patriot I, dramatically adding to the categories of people who may be investigated, curtailing due process and the right to appeal, and authorizing unlimited secrecy on the part of the government to spy on and detain citizens.

Nancy Murray, director of the Bill of Rights Education Project of the ACLU of Massachusetts, describes the proposals as " really quite frightening, both as a further erosion of our freedom, and as an indication of how this government operates: the desire for secrecy, the behind-the-scenes consolidation of power, and the emphasis on guilt by association. "

Among its provisions, Patriot Act II would allow for the classification of individual US citizens as " foreign powers, " opening them up to greater surveillance without requiring court orders. The word " terrorist " would legally encompass anyone who, regardless of his or her knowledge or intent, provides (undefined) " material support " to someone else defined as a terrorist (who may not even know that he or she has been so defined) for associating with a group defined as a terrorist organization, whether or not the group itself knows of its designation. The " terrorist " group need not have committed crimes; it need only be " likely to, " with no parameters establishing that likelihood.

This softness of definition is intentional, designed to provide unprecedented legal authorization for broad powers of pursuit. Chris Hoofnagle, deputy counsel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC), a not-for-profit research center focusing on privacy and civil liberties, says, " If passed as written, it becomes very easy, without knowledge or intent, to provide material support, which is where [the] Justice [Department] is getting its convictions already. " (Case in point: James Ujaama, an American Muslim activist, was initially charged with funding Al Qaeda and conspiring to set up a terrorist camp; according to the Justice Department press release, he pleaded guilty to donating computers and cash to a school under Taliban rule, and to traveling with someone who later attended a jihad training camp. All actual terrorism charges were dropped — or " superseded, " in Justice Department terms — but he will serve at least two years for his " material support. " )

Should you feel wrongly pursued, the law would make it impossible to do anything about it. Patriot II would allow agents to pursue you without court order or judicial approval, as long as they were acting in " good faith, " another undefined phrase. They would be able to share any of your personal information with any agency they deemed necessary in any jurisdiction, but those agencies could not share this information with you, nor could any person or institution tell you that it had been compelled to provide your records. (While it is currently illegal for institutions to reveal that investigative agencies have requested a person’s records, there is no specified penalty for doing so. Under Patriot II, however, simply telling you would merit a jail sentence.) From secret searches to phone taps to DNA testing, the government would have no obligation to explain its actions to you, to a court, or even to any sort of internal review.

This tactic reaches a brutal peak in the proposed approval of secret arrests. Should you be arrested, no charges need be made known to you and no admission made to anyone else — family, lawyers, or the press — that you have even been detained, until you are formally charged in court at a future time of the government’s choosing (with no set time limits). This abhorrent policy — the disappearing of citizens at the hands of their government, which amounts to a suspension of habeas corpus — has never been legal in our country; in fact, it is one of the things from which we claim to have gone to war to free the Iraqis.

Furthermore, American citizens could be stripped of citizenship simply for having provided the above-referenced " material support " to a designated individual terrorist or organization. EPIC’s Hoofnagle reminds us that such support could be as basic " as giving to a charity you like, " regardless of what you know about the money’s use. The bill claims that such action on your part indicates an implied willingness to relinquish citizenship, and as a newly unprotected noncitizen, you would no longer have the right to a hearing on the matter.

Consider the following example, which fully complies with the letter of the proposed law. You share an apartment with Hamad, a college student originally from Jordan. Hamad has often gone to pro-Palestinian rallies and events, including one co-sponsored by an organization that (unbeknownst to Hamad) has been declared terrorist for " likely " future actions. Hamad’s " association " with this group has led a zealous local agent to declare him a " foreign power " and " terrorist. " Through surveillance, agents learn that, while Hamad sought work last summer, you paid his rent — clear " material support " — making you a " terrorist " as well. The government revokes Hamad’s visa, forcibly repatriating him, and threatens to strip you of your citizenship. Without a lawyer and facing potentially open-ended detainment, you agree to plead guilty to providing material support, knowing that you are likely to serve jail time. The government claims another conviction against terror, and you pay the cost.

Because, in spirit, the law is directed at truly dangerous individuals, you might find that example exaggerated, but don’t be fooled: law is enforced according to its letter, not its spirit. As Hoofnagle notes, citing cases involving surveillance laws and Patriot Act I, " This Justice Department has proved it will stretch its interpretation of these laws to the limit. " Past perceptions of due process are of no comfort, because, as Murray says, " This bill throws out so much we’ve taken for granted for so long. "

THIS IS OUR moment, a test for citizens of all political leanings who claim to believe in constitutional guarantees. We must now stand up for them here at home — past the fatigue, past the rhetoric, and without compromise. Protesters must consciously reach beyond party lines to drive a simple message home to the voters and to Congress: defense of American freedoms is not a partisan issue. We cannot guarantee the values of any nation but our own, and our sense of freedom comes from the Constitution itself. Protest coalitions must become iron-willed defenders of these, our highest national aspirations. There may be little chance of piercing the myopia of the White House, but it is absolutely possible to establish a beachhead in the Capitol building and from there defend the Constitution.

Unfortunately, for the time being, the most prominent protest coalitions aren’t focusing much attention on domestic-legislative issues. International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism) is planning a May conference on US policy in Iraq, but its lone domestic-policy action is a student petition against FBI profiling. Win Without War’s only current domestically focused actions are intended to show troop support (by highlighting the issues of veterans’ benefits and Gulf War illness).

MoveOn, which has mobilized millions via the Internet, has surprisingly little to say about Patriot Act II and domestic legislation. Founder Eli Pariser explains that MoveOn is watching the situation but has no related actions planned. He adds that MoveOn " will encourage our members to take action when there’s a leveraged opportunity to do so, " meaning " when a little energy goes a long way. " (This approach seems best suited to modest goals, such as MoveOn’s " urgent " April 18 call for volunteers to complain about CNN’s coverage of anti-occupation rallies in Iraq — action of admittedly limited effect, as the call itself noted it would " only be ‘news’ for a day or so. " )

This is not to say that MoveOn has no domestic agenda. According to Pariser, " Our biggest priority right now is showing Bush the door in 2004. I really think that for those of us who are concerned about America’s foreign policy, a new president may be the only way to permanently change it. "

Dennis Burke, executive director of Citizens for Participation in Political Action (CPPAX), says the 2004 election is also his group’s primary focus. He adds, " Making that commitment now, and planning for that work, is a great way to convert the anger and frustration felt over the Iraq situation into useful progress. We won’t have any real peace in the world, or any justice at home, until that happens. "

The proactive, long-range approach taken by MoveOn and CPPAX is both vitally necessary and paradoxically shortsighted. By failing to mobilize now to defend civil liberties in Congress, these organizations risk the passage of legislation that will affect our nation for years beyond 2004. In the 20 months before any new administration can take the reins, a lot of legislative damage can be done. Furthermore, these coalitions are missing an excellent opportunity to define the terms of the 2004 election as a vote for or against American freedoms.

The coalition most aware of this is United for Peace and Justice. While still protesting US policy in Iraq and watching future US global policy, co-chair Leslie Cagan says, the coalition is " trying to draw links between those issues and domestic issues like the attacks on civil liberties and shredding of the Constitution. " In May, she says, the group will host a national teach-in, the only upcoming event sponsored by any of the major coalitions to deal directly with legislative issues; slated for broadcast on cable and the Web, its goal is to educate citizens on how American foreign policy and the threat to domestic civil liberties are connected. Meanwhile, none of the peace coalitions has proposed any action solely dedicated to stopping Patriot Act II, the extension of Patriot I, or what ACLU’s Murray calls " piecemeal attempts to pass similar measures now. "

Before it is too late to respond, protest coalitions must take immediate and sustained action. Here are seven suggestions for how they can do so.

1) Form true coalitions. In order to preserve their ability to organize freely and make positive change, coalitions need to put differences aside and work together, using all their organizational power for a campaign with breadth and depth.

2) Learn marketing. The Bush administration has demonstrated the value of compact phrases ( " compassionate conservatism " ). It has also shown how to stay on message, repeating core arguments until they define the debate, and exhibit a discipline that the left needs to mimic.

3) Get out the word on American freedoms. With clarity of message — American freedoms are in danger — extensive e-mail and phone chains must send urgent updates on this issue, as far and wide as possible.

4) Tell Congress the word is out. Protest coalitions should let Congress know that word of particular legislation has gone out and, when possible, they should tell legislators how many people in their districts have been alerted. Then, individual citizens should contact their representatives, preferably by personal letter or phone call, making the stakes clear.

5) Make actions visible and sustained. While valuable, an e-mail campaign can be dismissed as a " one-off " event, and legislators often hide behind the claim that voters who do not visit, call, or write personal letters are not that invested. Protests must be personal and visible, with actions at the offices of legislators and public rallies, both urban and rural, and must continue after the first wave of passion has subsided.

6) Broaden the base. Protest coalitions must reach beyond their natural affinity groups to join forces with others who, as fellow Americans, have a stake in defending our freedoms. If left-heavy protest coalitions cannot see allies in fellow citizens of other political bents, the movement will likely stall.

7) Bring in the voters. Because forestalling one bill is unlikely to change the ideological agenda of those in power, it’s up to the citizenry to change who is in power at all levels. Coalitions must convince the unregistered that it is imperative that they register, and convince those who are registered that they must vote to protect their civil liberties.

If our strongest coalition leaders cannot yet see the urgency of responding to the legislative situation, it may be up to their members to drive the point home. Across the nation, millions have recently learned how make to their voices heard. They should do so now within the movement, for when we guarantee our own freedom, we are best able to defend the freedom of others.

David Valdes Greenwood may be reached at mambobean@hotmail.com

...go not meekly into the night.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry March 23 1775 Falls Church Virginia

"THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated."
Thomas Paine from "The American Crisis"

...your plan, Diogones?

How you gonna get your way?

This continued descent into the reformation of America into a police state needs all of our attention. Perhaps we should also attempt to make it a focal point of whatever corporate/presidential election debate occurs, whether through direct actions or crashing the set, or other means.

While I would not consider them allies, I do find it so amazing that the various right wing soverign citizens groups (who are paranoid racists but have gotten airplay) are silent on this. Are they? Has it become such that anyone who dissents from the bushite lockstep march to fascist America, absent of liberty and bereft of freedom, is ignored and shutout by the corporate media? Makes IndyMedia even that more important, as if it were not already.

Here's my favorite quote on the subject:

He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People...depriving us, in many Cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury ... He has plundered our Seas, ravaged our Coasts ... He is, at this Time, transporting large Armies .... to complete the Works of Death, Desolation and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy of the Head of a civilized Nation.
-- Declaration of Independence

...document this is my favorite section:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

A couple of Good Articles from Hermes Press:

Police State U.S.A.: http://www.hermes-press.com/police_state.htm

The Nazification of America: http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

The Criminal High Cabal: http://www.hermes-press.com/criminality.htm

I'm just wondering how the "independent " media knows all of this stuff. Do they have embedded journalists too? Does a camera lie? Is Rick Levinthal wrong?

Am I not the most naive moron in the world?

There's not a day that goes by that someone in this country isn't holding up a George Bush with Hitler mustache poster at some rally somewhere over something.

And yet the Left still brings out this bugaboo of a totalitarian crackdown.

Yet, folks in Iraq are having the tongues cut out in the public square for dissent. . . the left doesn't bat an eyelash.

Fake Oppression Bad.

Real Oppression Okay.

That's the leftist mindset.

"Yet, folks in Iraq are having the tongues cut out in the public square for dissent. . . "

Oh, really? Damn that Jay Garner! And I thought that we were there to "liberate" the Iraqis!

War good.

Peace bad.

That's the conservative mindset.

No,

Peace Good

War Bad....... is what both Rep and Dems think, but


War is sometimes Necessary--the lesser of two evils

Kind of like when some people voted for Bush and not Gore in the 2000 election.

Also the failure of not acting could have lead to much horrible consequences.

No one likes a War assholes, nobody
but death and destruction on a greater scale that goes byond your politcially inferior activist minds is far worse than what happended in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The wars over so what happened to all of your protests. Wasn't this supposed to be the end of the world. Do humanity a favor and shut up so we can all live in peace. You guys cause more conflict than anything. You get your information from the Iraqi news minister.

error

"You get your information from the Iraqi news minister."

Compared to Fox News (YOUR likely "news" source), he's got a lot of credibility.

"...politcially inferior..."

Pot, meet kettle.

"Do humanity a favor and shut up so we can all live in peace."

Take your own advice. The world will thank-you.

...what is the plan to correct it?

How, exactly, do you plan to defend your liberties?

By alerting our family, friends and neighbors to the
situation after informing ourselves to the particulars
of the problem.
Then it's a matter of organizing in church groups, school
meetings, town councils, work places and bulletin boards.
The key to the technique is showing that these erosions of
freedom can effect all of us who want to keep our constitution effective. No armed insurrection, just concerned citizen activism.

We're with you all the way on this. But before we get started, there's one little matter we need to clear up first. What ever happened to Jimmy Hoffa? When the day comes that he either turns up alive or his body is found accompanied with an explanation as to what happened to him and where's he's been all this time, then we can focus our attention towards these other matters. Rest assured at this time, we are giving the matters you've raised all the consideration they deserve.

-- The American Public

Talking to your multiple personalities does
not constitute a public view.
It just shows mental illness.

Sorry, Sheepdog. I can't help it. Like most conservatives, I'm delusional. Come check me out at IMC-SF.

Although smelly and somewhat flappy and wet sounding, I must agree with Flatulent Johnnys point of view. This whole "fake oppression" thing that the left is preaching is a crock. Look, we're sorry that everyone doesn't agree with you, people do that sometimes. And, if people disagree you, deal with it. The bottom line, you cannot compare your "oppression" to that of the Iraqis or almost anyone for that matter. People don't like what you're saying, so what do we do in America? we talk back. I'm sorry if you don't like it. But, I have yet to see a "leftie" strung up by the ankles in the street and their tongue cut out, and I don't see that happening here anytime soon. THe bottom line, you DO have the right to say whatever you want. So say it!!! Then shut the hell up and stop whining!!

And another thing, you lefties are playing into the hands of your critics. You started with a legitimate "no war" gripe, and then everything was some conspiracy to oppress the lefties and stifle the left way of thinking and the left was starting to be looked at as a unorganized group of whining conspiracy theorists with little to back their argument on. Now, this whole "we're being oppressed because the US won't just listen and adopt our way of thinking" is only solidifying what the right knew all along. Listen, people don't care what you say, so you can say it all you want, and if people disagree, so be it. That is what it's all about anyway, right??

Anyone expressing a view different from the
corporate may find themselves in a small windowless
room as one of the disappeared awaiting the turn of
the key and other unknowns while hearing the sound of
terror and pain over the sound of too loud music.
I've been in central america and have seen the hard
side of the hidden hand.
This is the destination of unwitting sheep.
Wool seat covers and dinner.

Interview here: http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/01/26315.php

Destruction of our rights: Riva Enteen, National Lawyers Guild (interview MP3)

IF the war-on-terror is working(so they say), then why bring this draconian-fuckingmudslide down? this thing needs to be edited.--signed: a concerned dork

What's wrong with locking up anti-war protesters? They are disrupting traffic. They are a pain in the ass. Why not just toss them in jail and leave them there??

My main objection would be the cost to the taxpayer for feeding and housing them. They're not worth it.

You're really sounding like a hitler youth now.
Protesting is more american than apple pie.
Read some Thomas Paine, or Jefferson.
Particularly Jefferson.
Stop being so silly.

...he goes so far over the top.

Even he knows what he's saying is total bullshit.

Hope the pay is good, BA.

X and Sheepdog

These anti-war protesters are basically worthless twits. And so my dilemna is real.

Worthless twits should be locked away for the long haul.

However, it's difficult to justify the costs of housing, feeding, and clothing worthless twits.

Tough choice! Lock them in the tower for life or let them continue to disrupt traffic. Hmmm??

I cant forget about the journalist who are trying to interupt the propaganda machine of our media. I mean imagine the nerve of them to try and report real news in Iraq and Isreal. Those bastards deserve what they get, they ought to be shot right in the head. Fuck Algazera!
Sean Hannity Rocks!

The left is so incredibly bankrupt intellectually speaking.

The comments attacking Fox News amply illustrate my point. Fox presents both sides of the argument. Pacifica Radio does not.

You can rant and rave all you want, but truth overcomes bullshit most of the time. That's why the Republicans are winning and the Democrats are getting their asses kicked.

You crack me up, BA, always trying to paint a picture of Democrats vs
Republicans as if they don’t follow the agenda of the same contributors
I am laughing particularly at the spitting bravado, because I don’t believe your vitriol is real or that you would spend jail time proving it or that you
would ever get the chance. Oh, BTW, neither asshole is ‘admired’ by the
majority on this board so you’re merely shouting down as well.
HaHaHaHaHa.

"Anyone expressing a view different from the
corporate may find themselves in a small windowless
room as one of the disappeared awaiting the turn of
the key and other unknowns while hearing the sound of
terror and pain over the sound of too loud music.
I've been in central america and have seen the hard
side of the hidden hand.
This is the destination of unwitting sheep.
Wool seat covers and dinner."

Do you actually believe the crap you write. Your a tad on the dramatic side with a penchant for taking yourself way too seriously. Nobody is gonna take you away you friggin drama queen. When you start rapping about south america in comparison to whats happening here you expose yourself. Why don't you tell us a little about your experiences with the "hidden hand" in south america before the smell of bullshit becomes overpowering.

Excellent. The above post is dead on and priceless. Well said!

...fresca likes it so the odds are very good that the post above his is total crap.

Well hey there Dio. I fiqured you'd be hangin' out over in the crop circles thread making a case for the obvious involvement of Psyops and PAII. Good to see ya workin'.

Let me get this straight.....
Being an American is essentially being a citizen of a country that
has a "social contract" with the government to derive thier powers
from the consent of the governed.

This "social contract" essentially set up the principles of justice for the
basic structure of liberty and democracy.

The government has a "prima facie" legal obligation to uphold these rights.
But these Patriot Acts usurp the nature of the Constitution........

Citizens who stand up to protect these rights as guaranteed in the
Constitution are labeled "Unamerican"?
Is this possible?

WHo is to blame?
The people who stand up for thier american rights,
or
the government who represses the people?
or
the people that do not question the meaning of Liberty?

"WHo is to blame?
The people who stand up for thier american rights,
or
the government who represses the people?
or
the people that do not question the meaning of Liberty?"

It's not a matter of who is to balme but rather why the compulsion to blame.
It's fine and ultimately necessary to question the actions of those who are entrusted with our wellbeing.
Certainly nothing is more "American".
What is somewhat questionable is the reflexive condemnation of ALL and EVERY decision, policy and machination of government.
These cries of alarm over the complete dismissal of our civil rights and wholesale assualt on democracy are simply unwarranted. These waves of fear which are based on cloak and dagger, connect the dots political interpretation of every new development always stem from the same unrealized assertion. That "they" are out to get us. We are they.
I don't trust the government implicitly and I hardly agree with every scheme they come up with, but even when I vehemnetly disagree with a policy I don't immediately jump to the conclusion that it's a sure sign that "they" are out to destroy me. Sometimes I just don't get what I want. Oh well.
Until there is any quantitative evidence of my civil rights being eroded I will HAVE to assume they are intact. As are yours.
And so, because I refuse to share in this alarm does not mean that I consider those that do "unAmerican"; it simply means that given all the evidence presented before me, there is no reason for it.

.........but can we stick to the issue at hand.
The article is referencing the need of americans to
demonstrate openly against the unconsitutional
aspects of the Patriot Acts.
Can you reread the article
then
reread my post
then
comment?

.........but can we stick to the issue at hand.
The article is referencing the need of americans to
demonstrate openly against the unconsitutional
aspects of the Patriot Acts.
Can you reread the article
then
reread my post
then
comment?

What part of my response confused you?
I, of course, read the original article, and, then read your post referencing it.
Should I paste my original response here again or can you save me the trouble and reread it and respond.
It quite clearly gives you my feelings about the subject of the article, the alarms it sounds and what I consider to be, it's unfounded fear.
I also reponded to your questions about "unamericanism".
So, what's the problem?

Caducado:"Until there is any quantitative evidence of my civil rights being eroded I will HAVE to assume they are intact. "

That just plain fuckin' stupid....

...but typical....

I was actually asking a response to the Patriot Act and its inherent
unconstitutionality.
and you wrote (hense the confusion)
What is somewhat questionable is the reflexive condemnation of ALL and EVERY decision, policy and machination of government.
Machination is defined as and act, typically a crafty scheme or a plot to decieve.
is that what you meant? (dont answer that one)

I wasnt discussing ALL and EVERY decision of our government, i was discussing the legitimacy of
the Patriot Acts.

you wrote
These cries of alarm over the complete dismissal of our civil rights and wholesale assualt on democracy are simply unwarranted.
i guess these are unwarranted also
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/usapatriot020701.html
http://www.truthout.com/docs_02/06.27A.jge.uspa.uncon.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/liberties/2002/0624court.htm
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/whatsnew/report.asp?ObjID=nQdbIRkDgG&Content=153

I was actually asking a response to the Patriot Act and its inherent
unconstitutionality.
and you wrote (hense the confusion)
What is somewhat questionable is the reflexive condemnation of ALL and EVERY decision, policy and machination of government.
Machination is defined as and act, typically a crafty scheme or a plot to decieve.
is that what you meant? (dont answer that one)

I wasnt discussing ALL and EVERY decision of our government, i was discussing the legitimacy of
the Patriot Acts.

you wrote
These cries of alarm over the complete dismissal of our civil rights and wholesale assualt on democracy are simply unwarranted.
i guess these are unwarranted also
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/usapatriot020701.html
http://www.truthout.com/docs_02/06.27A.jge.uspa.uncon.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/liberties/2002/0624court.htm
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/whatsnew/report.asp?ObjID=nQdbIRkDgG&Content=153

Thanks for the links.
I'm well aware that there are town councils who have voted to challenge and resist the Patriot Act.
It's also interesting that at least one of the articles you posted illustrated the case of the courts protecting the rights of citizens in a decision AGAINST the Justice department.
So, please, tell me how YOUR constitutional rights have been or are likely to be eroded.

":"Until there is any quantitative evidence of my civil rights being eroded I will HAVE to assume they are intact. "

That just plain fuckin' stupid....
"

I know that that sounds like crazy talk to you, but then again, we've agreed that you are an idiot.

Why would I think that something doesn't exist without proof?

Really? When you stick your head in your ass, does the whole fuckin' world disappear?

Just because you like to live with your interior rectal view does not mean that the world does not exist. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary for those who bother to find out. Just ask Carlos Pedilla....if you can find him.

Military mother battles to express antiwar view
By Bella English, Globe Staff, 4/20/03

She's a mom on a mission -- to protest the war in Iraq -- and Alice Copeland Brown has a bit of combat fatigue. Who can blame her? She has been verbally abused, arrested, handcuffed, taken to jail, gotten a summons to court, and, most recently, assaulted on the MBTA Red Line. Her offense? Carrying a homemade protest sign bearing her soldier son's picture on it. The weapon? The very same sign.

Brown was returning home to Canton recently from a peace vigil in Copley Square when a young woman noticed her sign and began lecturing her. Brown knew better than to argue. Instead, the 65-year-old grandmother invited the woman to a workshop on the war that she was teaching at Harvard the next day. They were approaching the Quincy-Adams stop, so Brown stood to exit the train.

Suddenly, the young woman's boyfriend lunged at Brown, grabbed her sign away and charged at her with it, hitting her in the stomach and knocking her into the wall of the subway car. He exited the train, thinking she was going to exit, too, leaving his girlfriend on the T. But Brown was not about to get off onto the platform with the assailant and the man banged on the doors as they closed.

Meanwhile, Brown pushed the emergency button as the girlfriend pleaded with her not to press charges. "Please," Brown recalls her saying, "my boyfriend just feels passionately about this war."

When Brown e-mailed her son about the incident, he answered: "This guy feels passionately enough to beat up an old lady?" Her son, Army Major David Floyd(44), is a 20-year war veteran. He was in Afghanistan, now he's in Iraq serving as a surgical assistant, delivered by helicopter into the battlefield arena to help perform surgery on wounded Americans. It is tough, dangerous work, and Brown is rightfully proud.

During another recent T ride after a peace rally on Boston Common, another man yelled at Alice Brown because of her sign. She told him, "Sir, if you feel so strongly, why aren't you alongside my son in Iraq?" The man replied, "I'm too old." (He was 36; David Floyd is 44.)

This country was built around freedom of speech, religion, association and the like. Yet let someone try to exercise that right and they're branded communists or worse. Brown, an Alabama native, has been getting poison e-mails from many of her high school and college classmates. Many warn that she will burn in hell for her antiwar views.

When she took her sign and marched in front of Au Bon Pain in Harvard Square, a campus police officer told her to stop. "My son's in Iraq right now fighting for the right for us to have a police state right here in Cambridge!" she told the crowd. The officer was not amused.

When Brown showed up at the federal courthouse in Boston wearing a black cashmere suit, her jacket and the sweater beneath it were confiscated. Her crime this time? She had, she says, "very tastefully" written on the back of the jacket, in blue glitter: "No To War." The sweater's back bore: "Impeach Bush." It took the ACLU's intervention to get her clothes back.

Usually, she wears a Pilgrim's outfit -- long black dress, white apron, white cap -- in honor of ancestor Joan Tilley, who came over on the Mayflower. ("She's also related to George Bush," says Brown.) When she was put in the police wagon after protesting the war at JFK Plaza, her hands were cuffed behind her, and she looked like a petite Pilgrim granny. In the vehicle, she and 11 other military moms sang "We Shall Overcome" and "Down by the Riverside." It was her first arrest; she remained in jail for five hours.

Last week, her group was in court to answer charges of disorderly conduct and trespassing. The Lawyers Guild had worked out a deal: three months' probation. No, that doesn't mean Brown can't protest. "It only means I can't get arrested" without getting into worse trouble, she says. One of her favorite spots is Cobbs Corner in Canton; look for the Pilgrim carrying her sign.

Brown, who married while in college, is divorced and the mother of five. She moved to the Boston area 13 years ago to work for GTE Federal Systems as a software engineer. She spent much of her career helping design systems used by the Department of Defense. But in 1998, she realized "we were turning into an aggressor nation" and has been working on civilian software ever since.

She comes from a military family. Her three uncles saw active duty during World War II, and her father was a Coast Guard reservist. She sends care packages not only to her son, but to other soldiers serving in Iraq. She regularly boxes up things like sunglasses, eye drops and lip balm -- "little things that enhance the quality of their lives" -- and takes them to the Canton Fire Department, which ships them out to troops.

"Of course I support the troops," she says. "Much more than those chicken hawks who take the name of patriotism and they haven't got a clue. They've never been in combat, never known the horror of war."

She worries about her son and the other soldiers, and not just about them getting hurt. She worries about the images they will keep: of dead mothers and bloodied children, of swelling corpses and general mayhem in the streets.

"The whole thing is insane. All this stuff about liberation and democracy in Iraq is a bunch of hooey. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and Afghanistan are our allies, and they aren't free and democratic. It's all about the oil lobby and big business wanting to control the Middle East."

As far as the young thug on the T goes, he is to appear in court next week on charges of assault and battery with a deadly weapon, and with unarmed robbery -- trying to take her sign.

This Rambo "defending our troops" by assaulting an elderly woman is an embarrassment to his cause. So are the talk-show hosts and others who scream epithets at the war protesters. Would they rather have a system like Iraq, where people are killed for expressing their views?

Brown's son, who has given his career to the military, has the right attitude toward his mother's protests. "I've talked to the guys about it," he said in an e-mail to her. "And as long as you keep sending cookies, you can protest as long as you want."

Bella English writes from Milton. She can be reached at 617-929-8770 or via e-mail at english@globe.com.

Caducado:"So, please, tell me how YOUR constitutional rights have been or are likely to be eroded."

So it goes from there is not erosion to constituional rights to there is no erosion of YOUR constituional rights? If it ain't hurtin' you personally then who cares?

What a selfish fuckin' loser. You would have been right at home in 1933 Germany.

Is anyone here into scat? What about bukkake?

"So it goes from there is not erosion to constituional rights to there is no erosion of YOUR constituional rights? If it ain't hurtin' you personally then who cares? "

Hmmm. You're sort of an imbecile aren't you KFC?
No matter...I'll make this simple for you.
You have, again, misunderstood a post yet felt compelled to sermonize.

Here's the deal. Since no one has given ANY clear examples of anyone elses civil rights being eroded, it stands to reason that these same people should AT LEAST be able to give an example of how their own rights are being diminished.
After all, it must be happening since there's such alarm and furor over it.
So, give some examples.
Well, not you KFC; I suspect you'll fuck it up. But anyone else's input would be appreciated.

Are you into scat or bukkake?

Citizens held incommunicado, no charges, no hearing....immigrants with visa violations being held indefinitely...a CLEAR violation of authority (they are in or out if here illegally...if you suspect something else, charge 'em...this cowardly Shrubistration would rather ride on a poorly defined and inapplicable technicality than be honest, surprise surprise from AG Asscrack)....

...but there aren't ANY clear examples of anyone's civil rights being eroded...don't you selfishly mean there is no clear evidence of YOUR civil rights being eroded?

Like I said before, you are a liar, an ignorant bastard, or both...you are proving the latter with every post, Caducado - or is Caducada with verga envy?

"Citizens held incommunicado, no charges, no hearing"


Feel free to post some verifiable evidence of this.

You haven't had much luck playing follow the leader have you?

Sure would suck to be you.

I am BOTH a liar AND an ignorant bastard. I'm also a conservative. Coincedence? I think not.

Obviously you've had a chance to read my last post and come back with the amazingly clever and witty retort above, so please answer the question.
Give some verifiable examples of your charge.

I'll be holding my breath.

I am totally insane.

Jose Pedilla.


...you can foul up our air with your breath now....

No way. That's not true because Fox News said so.

This is getting too easy.
As you well know, Padilla, by his own admission AND overwhelming evidence was a member of Al Queda.
As such, he is rightfully classified as an enemy combatant. And as such, he does not have the same constitutional rights as a citizen who DOES NOT TAKE UP ARMS AND CONSPIRE aginst us.
A clear distinction.
One that you know and hoped would be overlooked.
Try again.

Way to go. Whenever we conservatives don't have a valid argument, we can always resort to pointing out insignificant spelling errors. Great job!

Caducada: "And as such, he does not have the same constitutional rights as a citizen who DOES NOT TAKE UP ARMS AND CONSPIRE aginst us."

Gee, I don't remember reading that in the constitution...he is a citizen and has the rights of a citizen. And those rights have been denied. The Constitution says nothing....can you read that...NOTHING about enemy combatants...end of fuckin' story.

...your claim is...is...is...

....LUDICROUS!

...fuckin' buttplug...

You poor innocent victims, how could we just stand around why we were oppressing people in our own country. How could this happen? Why did we let it go on? You poor souls, I feel so guilty! We should have done something. We should give you all what you want. Follow the theories of Marx and Stalin and we can all live in a Utopia. And that big bad corporate media, how can they be telling the truth. Cameras lie all the time and so do history books. Saddam never killed anyone, he was a saint--he was an angel. He standing next to Allah right now with his prophet Muhamod drinking some wine and being in the company of 20 virgins.

Well, news flash morons--you are all retarded and in my point of view are no better than Saddam. You are no better than those who you choose to support. I wanted to kill Saddam years ago before the first Gulf War. Its about time we had a President who did something. When Clinton bombed Iraq in 98, you guys weren't out there protesting! Why? That was a bombing that accomplished nothing! Clinton was far too concerned with his own political future to give a rats ass about the Iraqi people. We bombed them, killed some of them, but did not remove the cause of the problems. So here we are at the end of the war and whats that I hear...............Oh, its the sound of the Republicans WINNING and the Democrats WHINNING! LOL! Now your saying that your oppressed--poor hippies--now what are you going to do! Ohh shit, now you don't have an excuse to not go to work! HA HA HA AH AHA HA

...what is it about these pencil-dicked neocons and the word "retarded"....? You'd think they'd be more sensative...what with supporting a retarded pResident 'n' all....

You poor innocent victims, how could we just stand around why we were oppressing people in our own country. How could this happen? Why did we let it go on? You poor souls, I feel so guilty! We should have done something. We should give you all what you want. Follow the theories of Adam Smith and Lou Dobbs and we can all live in a Utopia. And that big bad indy media, how can they be telling the truth. Cameras lie all the time and so do history books. Hitler never killed anyone, he was a saint--he was an angel. He standing next to Allah right now with his prophet Muhamod drinking some wine and being in the company of 20 virgins.

Well, news flash morons--you are all retarded and in my point of view are no better than Hitler. You are no better than those who you choose to support. Its about time we had a Dictator who did something. When Reagan bombed Libya in 86, you guys weren't out there protesting! Why? That was a bombing that accomplished nothing! Reagan was far too concerned with his own political future to give a rats ass about the Libyan people. We bombed them, killed some of them, but did not remove the cause of the problems.

This is why your side will always lose and my side will always win. You bring nothing to the debate except insults. I have the right not to agree with you. I may use insults, but I also add something to the argument.

"...but I also add something to the argument."

Yeah, a whole lot of garbage.

The other day, my bird said "The sky is pink". Now, everybody knows the sky ain't pink, but I didn't argue with her...

...you're sorta like my bird.

...I will apologize to my bird when I get home....

...a dolt. He would have to have at least some humanity to qualify.

My dad is a mess hall sergeant and he will kick both of your asses if you don't stop picking on me!

I like the way you re wrote that post, but I have to tell you that it has nothing to do with Iraq. That doesn't even come close to a logical comparison. Anyone who now reads that will be dumber for reading it.

Nobody could be dumber than I.

people need your help to hack and spam sf-indy racist site

Blow me, you head queen.

I love the control I have over this board. It's amazing that I can refute one idiot like KFC (sorry, the padilla example still doesn't wash.) leave for an hour or two and come back to find all sorts of posts in homage to me. You all are pathetic.
I haven't even been here for hours and you're all STILL putting your foot in your mouths for my amusement.
I never set out for this but I have to admit that it is nice to be one of the few puppetmasters around here.
Now dance!

..."rightfully classified as an enemy combatant."

...rightfully classified as ignorant cunt would be good enough...

Caducada: "sorry, the padilla example still doesn't wash.) "

ummm, it's Padilla, not padilla...

...and who cares how dirty he is, he is still a citizen and his rights have been trampled. There's your one example...you are proven wrong, now strap on that thing so you will have the balls to admit it...

...fuckin' bumvent..