Will there still be state/local governments, or just one central government?

Will there even be a government (in our current understanding)?

If not, how will we ensure that corrupt people don't start accumulating illegitimate amounts of wealth, in violation of the principles of the revolution?

Will there still be a bicameral legislature, an executive branch and a judiciary? What will be the powers of each branch.

How will we ensure that corrupt people don't make it into the system?

Will we have an army? What will it be like?

These are the important questions for all radical revolutionaries to answer.

All lefties to the guillotine!

The Red Sox will win the series before you 8 or 9 jackasses get your revolution of the ground.

...but I hear nothing about how it's going to come about.

Has anyone got a plan? What will be the method of revolution? How will you handle those who resist? What's your idea for continuing essential services during the unrest? How about the inevitable activation of the Guard and Reserves? They got tanks, you know. You got some antitank grenades stashed?

Just curious.

One possibility is they try to do it without some partial control of the military and they get slaughtered (or they just go home and return to their jobs)

Or Two... they use the military and they find that they get a standard authoritarian police state along the lines of stalin or hitlers states It doesnt matterwhat their initial plan was.... because you can't just put the military in power and then over throw them again (refer first option).

...I, and all the other members of the United States military, take VERY SERIOUSLY our oaths to protect the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Have a nice day!

Mornin' Daveman, You do get around don't cha! Is your nose itchy? You're the hit of the morning and probably don't even know it. Glad to see you're proud to be a vet and proud to be part of what this country is really all about. I will assume that you're a vet from you CAPITALIZATION of remarks here. If this assumption is accurate, kind sir, let me take a moment on behalf of my family, friends and acquaintences to say THANK YOU SO MUCH, that you would put yourself at risk and enter the armed forces to defend this country for me and mine. Anyone who can not appreciate that should leave this country. It doesn't matter what brought about the war, this or any other war. What matters is that whether you're for or against any of these actions, once the decision is made, BY THE PEOPLE YOU ELECTED, your support is crucial. I for one, Daveman, am proud of you and thank you.

Thank you so very much. I am indeed active duty Air Force, and am doing what I can for the war effort from a base here in the US.

The support of civilians is very welcome and encouraging. I can't speak for every serviceman/woman, but it must be said, those who serve do not do so for the "thanks of a grateful nation"; we serve mainly because we feel we owe something to our country.

No, thanks aren't necessary. I'm sure there are people here who will say, "You're not serving ME!" Well, yes, I am, if you're an American citizen, whether you like it or not.

This seems like a good place to post this, written by Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Chaplain, USMC:

It is the Soldier,

not the reporter who has given us freedom of press

It is the Soldier,

not the poet who has given us freedom of speech

It is the Soldier,

not the campus organizer who has given us freedom to demonstrate

It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,

who serves beneath the flag,

and whose coffin is draped by the flag,

who allows the protester to burn the flag

...terrist.

Yer picture's busted.

Not all enlisted people have the same attitudes that lifers like you have, Daveman. That will be even more true once the draft is re-instated. Lots of guys like you got fragged in Vietnam.

By the way, and I mean this as a separate issue, I don't know why you seem to think that being in the military automatically gives one a sterling character. Not so long ago judges used to give offenders their choice of the military or jail; many chose jail as the lesser of two evils. Don't forget Lee Harvey Oswald and Timothy McVeigh; what wonderful fellows. McVeigh was actually the first "hero" to return from the first Gulf War. He was on his way to Green Beret training. The pilot on his airliner announced that this hero was on board and he got a big round of cheering and applause. Later he put his military training to what he thought was good use. If I'm not mistaken, the Boston Strangler was also a veteran; maybe that is where he learned his strangling techniques. Some of Richard Nixon's friends and associates claimed that they noticed a big change in him once he got back from the service; he seemed like a nice guy before he went in and came back as as a foul-mouthed son of a bitch.

...you cite 4 cases, out of perhaps, oh, call it 10 million service personnel during the period.

That's pretty good odds. Better than society as a whole, certainly.

No, not all enlisted people have the same attitude as I do. So? The end result is the same...the Constitution is protected.

As far as your opinion of us military folk, thank a veteran for your ability to express it.

...we have to protect the Constitution against morons like davemoron.

By the Way: Based on writing style and content I believe it highly likely, but not certain, that daveman = Psymple Psymon.

The writing styles are close enough that if it is not the same person they were both trained by the same people.

Wrong again. Yer battin' .000, Skippy.

Daveman, I challenge you to read the following book: Twentyninepalms: A True Story of Murder, The Marines and the Mojave. It is by Deanne Stillman; I would love to see you try to prove that what she says about military towns is wrong.

Do you double dog dare me?

I don't care what you'd love to see. I expect Ms. Stillman, judging from the title of her book, is guilty of sensationalizing the facts presented.

So what are you trying to prove? Military people are all murderous scum?

Yeah. Uh huh. Believe what you like. Don't let little things like "facts" get in the way.

My gosh. Go to work for one day and I can't leave you boys alone for a minute without you pickin fights with each other. Shame on you all. Looks like you all took a nice long "time out" so I guess you should have your mouths...err..minds under better control by now! What is with all the vet bashing? Ya know, I am old enough (if ya repeat this-I'll deny I ever said it!) to remember Viet Nam, and the way some clowns in the country treated my generation's young men coming home. My brother-in-law was taken off his home-bound plane under escort and told to go into the bathroom and change out of his uniform because some idiots were there and they were afraid of repraisals. What trash. No, I'm not a military wife, nor daughter, but its jsut plain ignorant to think that everything you have in this world wasn't paid for with the blood of a rather large number of our own people. Where do you clowns get off acting like it doesn't matter? Didn't your mother ever teach you to respect your elders?

Oh, yeah, who is this "terrist" fella? Is this your lame way of spelling "TERRORIST"?

The US military not only protects the civil rights of the US but by maintaining the US's position and its ability to have influence in the world it also to an extent protects the human rights of every other person in the world.

If it wasnt for the US and similar countries (who are less significant because they are less powerful) genocides would occur without a whisper of complaint from foreign governments and as a result there would be even less deterant (and far more genocide etc) than there is today.

Much if not most of the violence in the world has

been carried out to promote corporate control of

indigious resources. Look around.

The U.S. military is the enforcement arm of Wall Street

and the major stock holders who direct policy.

The role of the US military is to shore up right-wing dictators around the world and advance the interests of preditory US corporations, which are screwing over not only people in the Third World but people right here in the USA.

Some people in the military are good people who were talked into joining by recruiters or "guidance counsellors" in working class high school. Others are thugs who would be in jail if they were not in the Marines or some other killer outfit. Why do you think that every US military base in the world is a magnet for drug dealers, pornographic film makers (both heterosexual and homosexual), prostitutes of both sexes, and similar people? They are flocking with the birds of a feather inside the base.

"Some people in the military are good people who were talked into joining by recruiters or "guidance counsellors" in working class high school. Others are thugs who would be in jail if they were not in the Marines or some other killer outfit. Why do you think that every US military base in the world is a magnet for drug dealers, pornographic film makers (both heterosexual and homosexual), prostitutes of both sexes, and similar people? They are flocking with the birds of a feather inside the base."

Wow. Your lack of...well, almost everything...is amazing.

Never mind the military members who volunteer countless hours to such causes as Special Olympics and Habitat for Humanity. Never mind the money donated from already-tight paychecks to innumerable charities. Never mind the fact that we swore to protect your right to prove your ignorance.

Never mind all that; let's just focus on the few bad apples (whose percentage isfar less than that of society as a whole) who get Oscar Meyer's attention and serve as the stone on which he grinds his particular hate-filled axe.

Ignorance is curable.

Stupidity is not.

Oh, and the snide "working class" remark? The class war is over...you snobs lost.

"Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is not."

Sorry, conservatives. daveman thinks that there's no hope for ya.

...amount of time in Uniform I think I can safely say that most of the men I had the honor of serving with were basically decent. That does not mean they were always the "Sharpest Tool in the Shed" but they serve for the right reasons - to stand in defense.

Meyer your oppobrium would be more accurately aimed at the men and women who have betrayed the trust of a lot of well meaning kids who have been sorely misused.

Of course the military does attract all kinds. It collects a wide range of specimens from across the human spectrum. There are of course those who joined rather than spend 90 days or 6 months on a "litter patrol" crew, but even most of them straighten out after Boot Camp (assuming they make it). And there are those who should be in Jail but aren't. They are however a minority. Most are naive kids with stars in their eyes and a Hollywood Idea of what they are committing to.

Crime rates around military bases are always high. That includes Camp Pendleton. Not a year goes by when there are not scandals about rape, murder, burglary, hold-ups, spousal abuse, drug dealing, pornographic "acting" for underground films, and so forth. Twenty-Nine Palms is a nightmare - and a proof that boot camp does not stamp out criminality. If anything, its brutality probably exacerbates and encourages it.

...those represent a small minority of people in Uniform. Unfortunately when you get a lot of very aggressive 18-20 year olds in one small area there are going to be some real assholes and outright criminals. You are dealing with a high concentration of the age group responsible for a majority of crimes in the civilian populace. That does not mean I excuse it as I most definitely do not. Please be aware though that they are not given a lot of toleration by the guys with whom they serve. They tend to be physically very awkward and have "lots of accidents". Life in the Service can be very trying for these types of individuals. That may be to some small degree the reason why they go off base and prey on those weaker. They are not tolerated. When caught they do time in military jails - which I will tell you quite honestly make civilian jails look like a daycare center.

And I will agree that Boot Camp is not a "cure-all", it's a cure some. Those that were redeemable will frequently be redeemed by the experience - they undergo a "Severe Reality Adjustment" or SRA for short. I had the term explained to me the first time by a Non-Com who was giving me "the facts of life". The only thing I regret about the whole mess is that we used to hang rapists. Military Justice has gone soft due to outside pressure groups.

The military is it's own little insular world but it is in many ways a reflection of our larger society. Honor is something which still has some currency for men and women in Uniform. Thus you get "Duty, Honor, Country". The "Marine Corps Motto" is "Semper Fidelis" - "Always Faithful" - and they mean it.

I would have to agree with you on this point, Meyer. There is a higher instance of criminality in military towns.

I wonder if it ever occurred to you to consider that the majority of those who serve in uniform are young men - say 17-25 years of age, with, on average a GED or high school diploma for an education. Add to this a very difficult and stressful job, separation from home and family, one could expect that these people would be more succeptable to problems with alcohol and lawbreaking.

If you were to look at crime statistics from any major American city you will note that the vast majority of perps are in this age group. It stands to reason that if you were to look at the crime rates for these cities and only count those persons in the 17-25 year age group, you would find that military towns look rather mundane in comparison.

The fact is that the majority of the enlisted ranks come from the lower strata of American society. Lacking education, social graces, and perhaps most importantly, maturity, they get themselves into trouble. They are also the best fighting force in the world. Better educated, better behaved, and better led than any force on Earth (possible exception of the Israelis).

One wonders what novel solution you have to this problem, Meyer.

...one of those rare occurrences. We are both on the same side of an issue. Let's try not to let this happen too often - people might talk.

"Lacking education, social graces, and perhaps most importantly, maturity, they get themselves into trouble."

You must have a lot of "trouble" in your past, simpleton.

I did have my share of "trouble". What's your point?

And Diogenes, I am sure we'll disagree much more often than we will agree, but when you're right, you're right.

Either that or we're both wrong. Nah, impossible.

Mention of the Israeli army.

Yes they're well trained but they certainly don't

impress me with their professionalism when it

comes to respecting civilian rights.

Dishing Disinformation & Dogma Daily

"I did have my share of "trouble". What's your point?"

My POINT is that you lack education, social graces, and, perhaps most importantly, maturity. HENCE, you must have gotten into a lot of "trouble" in your life. Are you really that slow?

Hitler's troops in World War II were well-trained, too. So what? I wish they had been less well-trained; the world would have been better off for it.

Generally speaking Hitlers army treated prisoners with some degree of dignity - didnt use indiscriminate weapons (I am talking about on the battlefield) didnt rape citizens en mass etc etc.. (i expect there are some examples to the contrary but I mean in general)

As bad as hitler was and maybe their army was they certainly could have been worse.... they could have been mugabe's army....

Leave it to a conservative to defend Hitler!

As I say hitler was a "bad bad man" in fact about as bad as you can get. That doesnt mean "all of germany" was also bad.

it also doesnt mean that all of his army was "the evilest army ever".

You will notice we did not throw al of the germans and all of the soldiers in jail after the war.

"I am not defending hitler you simpleton."

Pot, meet kettle.

My pot is silver and my kettle is white.. (as is very common)

For some reason you seem to think that they must both be black.. It may be because you are an idiot.

"It may be because you are an idiot."

Learn how to spell "faScist."

Pot, meet kettle.

Mr English police.. its lucky that people who dont have english as a first language have no right to have opinions. Shall we start massacaring civilians now?

Besides try using proper sentances and not repeating meaningless phrases about your conversations with your kitchen appliances.

"Besides try using proper sentances and not repeating meaningless phrases about your conversations with your kitchen appliances."

What's not "proper" about that sentence? If you had an IQ higher than your shoe size, you'd realize that "pot, meet kettle" implies that you're a HYPOCRITE. No wonder you're a conservative.

"Shall we start massacaring civilians now?"

I'll leave that to the US military.

Sheepdog - Much if not most of the violence in the world has been carried out to promote corporate control of indigious resources. Look around.

- If we wanted to do that that would be easy enough we could occupy and control saudi arabia or some other nice country. But we dont.. hmm confusing.

Anyway just because that might happen sometimes doesnt mean that at other times military force might be used to protect human rights.

As to the military existing to further right wing dictators interests....

The US has been involved in a number of major wars germany / japan - against right wing dictators"

"Vietnam and korea" against comunists

:Iraq - against a dictator who combines a little socialism with a little fascism.

serbia - against a right wing govt

Somalia - against anarchy but if anything I would call it right wing

Oh aren't the US government ever going to have a major war that matches your hypothesis and justifies their existance? It would be easy enough.. a little war against the netherlands to convert them to a facsist dictator.....

I note that all of your conspiricies about overthrowing governments are irrelevant even though they are almost all false because they dont use "the army".

"I note that all of your conspiricies about overthrowing governments are IRRELEVANT"

Ahhh, much like YOU, Scottie boy.

OK lets assume you are right. (which you are not)

If you are right then it is YOU who is IRRELEVANT

What can you do to stop the US from its imperial objectives (if there is such a thing) you just have to sit there whining until they come to kill you.

Sux to be you.

"If you are right then it is YOU who is IRRELEVANT "

Gee, why didn't you just say "I know you are but what am I?" What, no creativity in Romper Room today?

"What can you do to stop the US from its imperial objectives (if there is such a thing) you just have to sit there whining until they come to kill you."

Oblivious fools like YOU will be the first to go.

"Sux to be you."

Unsubstantiated allegation. Compared to being you, I'll take my chances.

Seriously, are you a masochist? You just keep coming back for more.

Oh I do have a high IQ the probablilities suggest it is much higher than yours.

HYPOCRITE? where was i hypocritical? more specifically you are not making a point you are trying to make an insult.

And WHY should I realise that a "saying" that has no meaning in itself implies hypocracy? you seem to be making an cluture centered assumption that I have been exposed to the same cultural memes as yourself?

Anyway Stop being deliberatly obscure.

I dispute the very validity of your phrase as it is implying that you cannot state a fact if the fact is true about yourself. That is idiotic, why did you make such a obviously stupid point ?

Bringing up bad cuoture based generalizations inside of a detailed debate is obviously going to be a waste of space.

It is also not relevant since i am not being hypocritical. And you havent even presented what you think I am being hypocritical about.

"I'll leave that to the US military"

So you are just refusing to deal with this issue?

Oblivious fools like YOU will be the first to go.

- why? "Unsubstantiated allegation"

Unsubstantiated allegation. Compared to being you, I'll take my chances.

You accuse me of it and then you do it yourself.. hmm interesting

"Oh I do have a high IQ the probablilities suggest it is much higher than yours."

Unsubstantiated allegation.

"HYPOCRITE? where was i hypocritical? more specifically you are not making a point you are trying to make an insult."

You call someone an idiot, yet you don't even know how to spell the simplest of words. This is hypocrisy epitomized. Is THAT good enough for you? You sure are slow! How is calling someone an "idiot" NOT "trying to make an insult?"

"Oblivious fools like YOU will be the first to go.

- why? "Unsubstantiated allegation""

Read what happened when Stalin took over. It's hardly UNsubstantiated that the oblivious were the first ones to go. I guess you ARE a masochist.

I also not that if you take "insult" to be implicit in "pot meet kettle" then you are implying that "black" is an insult ie your meme is a racist based meme.

If I am to accept that insult is implicit I will give you an example

for you I will give a simple leftist example

1) some leftist says "americans are stupid"

2) then he says "bush is stupid"

Conclusion - then it would be hypocracy for americans to not vote for bush because he is stupid.

Obviously that is a stupid conclusion in itself

Sorry, I don't speak gibberish.

"Oh I do have a high IQ the probablilities suggest it is much higher than yours."

Unsubstantiated allegation.

- I have an IQ test here next to me and IQ tests work by a certain number leaves a certain percentage of people above or below you.. if that is "unsubstantiated" then I dont know what you think is "substantiated"

You call someone an idiot, yet you don't even know how to spell the simplest of [english] words.

- you have just declared the majority of the worlds population an "idiot". You obviously make nonsensical generalizations.

How is calling someone an "idiot" NOT "trying to make an insult?"

-that fact that you cant figure that out shows you are an idiot yourself. and prejudiced.

----------- Read what happened when Stalin took over. It's hardly UNsubstantiated that the oblivious were the first ones to go. I guess you ARE a masochist.

- haha moron.. You are SOO wrong its not funny. They have no acess to me. Therefore your russian analogy is inapropriate.

Secondly even if I was "in russia" your definition of "oblivious" does not include both me and them at the same time..

and not to forget.. you are wrong about your whole theory.

Sorry, I don't speak gibberish.

- hmm everything looks like gibberish to you becaue you are an idiot. And I respect and love you for it..

I just dont think you should express opinions in public.

there how was that?

How is calling someone an "idiot" NOT "trying to make an insult?"

"-that fact that you cant figure that out shows you are an idiot yourself. and prejudiced."

Gibberish, plain and simple. Please speak English.

You call someone an idiot, yet you don't even know how to spell the simplest of [english] words.

"- you have just declared the majority of the worlds population an "idiot". You obviously make nonsensical generalizations."

If you aren't confident in your ability to speak English, why do you come to this website?



"Therefore your russian analogy is inapropriate."

Ahhhh, much like your existence.

"- hmm everything looks like gibberish to you becaue you are an idiot. And I respect and love you for it..

I just dont think you should express opinions in public."

Look up the word "gibberish" in a dictionary. Is "idiot" the only childish insult you know? Don't they teach you creativity in Romper Room?

...When Diogenes and its comrads are eating all of the milk and apples.

...if you are going to go trolling for a rise at least you could spell "comrades" right.

Otherwise F*ck - the only thing missing is "u".

thread

broken

And Remember.

No sleeping in beds... errr... without sheets.

1) some leftist says "americans are stupid"

2) then he says "bush is stupid"

Conclusion - then it would be hypocracy for americans to not vote for bush because he is stupid.

==============exactly

That's what makes this all so frightening and important.

It is imperative that those of us who aren't stupid seriously, without ridicule, EDUCATE the rest of our country before we vote again. And we must get ALL the currently none stupid people :-) registered to vote.