The Bible tells us that pride goeth before the fall. In Iraq, it cameth right after it.
From the moment that statue of Saddam hit the ground, the mood around the Rumsfeld campfire has been all high-fives, I-told-you-sos, and endless smug prattling about how the speedy fall of Baghdad is proof positive that those who opposed the invasion of Iraq were dead wrong.

What utter nonsense. In fact, the speedy fall of Baghdad proves the anti-war movement was dead right.

The whole pretext for our unilateral charge into Iraq was that the American people were in imminent danger from Saddam and his mighty war machine. The threat was so clear and present that we couldn't even give inspectors searching for weapons of mass destruction -- hey, remember those? -- another 30 days, as France had wanted.

Well, it turns out that, far from being on the verge of destroying Western civilization, Saddam and his 21st century Gestapo couldn't even muster a half-hearted defense of their own capital. The hawks' cakewalk disproves their own dire warnings. They can't have it both ways. The invasion has proved wildly successful in one other regard: It has unified most of the world -- especially the Arab world -- against us.

Back in 1991, more than half-a-dozen Arab nations were part of our Desert Storm coalition. Operation Iraqi Freedom's "coalition of the willing" had zero. Not even the polygamous potentates of Kuwait -- whose butts we saved last time out and who were most threatened by whatever threat Iraq still presented -- would join us. And, I'm sorry, but substituting Bulgaria and the island of Tonga for Egypt and Oman is just not going to cut it when it comes to winning hearts and minds on the Arab street.

In fact, almost everything about the invasion -- from the go-it-alone build-up to the mayhem the fall of Saddam has unleashed -- has played right into the hands of those intent on demonizing our country. Islamic extremists must be having a field day signing up recruits for the holy war they're preparing to wage against us. Instead of Uncle Sam wants you, their recruiting posters feature a different kind of patriotic image: an American soldier ill-advisedly draping the American flag over Saddam's face.

The anti-war movement did not oppose the war out of fear that America was going to lose. It was the Bush administration's pathological and frantic obsession with an immediate, damn-the-consequences invasion that fueled the protests.

And please don't point to jubilant Iraqis dancing in the streets to validate the case for "pre-emptive liberation." You'd be doing the Baghdad Bugaloo too if the murderous tyrant who'd been eating off golden plates while your family starved finally got what was coming to him. It in no way proves that running roughshod over international law and pouring Iraqi oil -- now brought to you by the good folks at Halliburton -- onto the flames of anti-American hatred was a good idea. It wasn't before the war, and it still isn't now. The unintended consequences have barely begun to unfold.

And the idea that our slamdunk of Saddam actually proves the White House was right is particularly dangerous because it encourages the Wolfowitzes and the Perles and the Cheneys to argue that we should be invading Syria or Iran or North Korea or Cuba as soon as we catch our breath. They've tasted blood.

It's important to remember that the Arab world has seen a very different war than we have. They are seeing babies with limbs blown off, children wailing beside their dead mothers, Arab journalists killed by American tanks and bombers, holy men hacked to death and dragged through the streets. They are seeing American forces leaving behind a wake of destruction, looting, hunger, humiliation, and chaos.

Who's been handling our war PR, Osama bin Laden? The language and imagery are all wrong. Having Tom DeLay gush about our "army of virtue" at the same time we're blowing up mosques is definitely not sending the right message to a Muslim world already suspicious that we're waging a war on Islam.

Neither is Ari Fleischer's claim that the administration can't do anything to keep Christian missionaries -- including those who have described the Islamic prophet Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" and a "terrorist" -- from going on a holy crusade to Baghdad. You think the Arab world might take that the wrong way? If there is one thing that could bring Sunnis and Shiites together, it's the common hatred of evangelical zealots who denigrate their prophet.

And it doesn't help to have the American media referring to Jay Garner, the retired general Don Rumsfeld picked to oversee the rebuilding of Iraq, as "viceroy." It reeks of colonial imperialism. Why not just call him "Head Bwana?" Or "Garner of Arabia?" I didn't realize the Supreme Court had handed Bush a scepter to go along with the Florida recount.

The powerful role that shame and humiliation have played in shaping world history is considerable, but something the Bush team seems utterly clueless about. Which is why the anti-war movement must be stalwart in its refusal to be silenced or browbeaten by the gloating "I told you so" chorus on the right. On the contrary, it needs to make sure that the doctrine of preemptive invasion is forever buried in the sands of Iraq.

Especially as the administration, high on the heady fumes of Saddam's ouster, turns its covetous eyes on Syria. I give it less than a week before someone starts making the case that President Assad is the next, next Hitler.

Iraq was not a threat, you make omit a very important detail which refutes your point.

You claim Iraq's military was a shell. . . not a threat.

But you forget how you scoffed when Bush stated that Iraq harbored terrorists. And yet, not only Abu Abas, but 100's of Islamic fundamentalist terrrorists were found in Iraq.

And, you just keep on assuming WMD's won't be found. When we all know they will. (You'll just claim they were planted when their found!)

Finally, I find it amazing that you EXPECT that the new Iraq will be place of religious intolerance. Why else would you be upset at the prospect of Christian's going there to practice their faith?

Care to list names of the "100's of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists" that were "found" in Iraq? No, you can't use Fox News as a source. This ought to be good!

"to practice their faith" ?

Don't you mean to prosthletize and convert with bribes of water and food?

They're not named, but there were 700 Ansar Al Islam terrorists caught or killed in one camp.

Oh, and I love how religious tolerance manifests itself on the left! Christian = Killers.

No matter what religion or sect. And headlines is all that matters to "people".

That's right, 700 terrorists. That's what Fox News told us, anyway. Now that we're in Iraq, we must convert those wicked Muslims to Christianity. We know what's best. We are American conservatives and we'll shove our religion down your throats whether you like it or not!

http://www.msnbc.com/news/ 895185.asp?0sl=-33

Remember: When you don't agree with someone, just say he watches fox. Its the nuclear argument!

Not.

That's right, 700 terrorists. That's what THE CORPORATE MEDIA told us, anyway. Now that we're in Iraq, we must convert those wicked Muslims to Christianity. We know what's best. We are American conservatives and we'll shove our religion down your throats whether you like it or not!

actually acknowledge the points raised by the article, and the previous article (by Geov Parrish) before unthinkingly lashing out with the usual mantra bashing everything progressive?

I do believe that PMSNBC is only slightly less credible than fox.

0-0=0

It's so hard for these peaceniks to admit they were so very very wrong. Look at Ariana weaving and bobbing.

Going into Iraq was a very good move indeed. We've lost more Americans on the highways of Texas this year than we lost to date in the Iraq war. Saddam is gone, toast, history. The Iraqis have been liberated.

We probably should go into Syria. Let's let the intelligence play out and not be too hasty, but I suspect Syria would be a good next move. The Bush Administration is likely to spell out conditions for Damascus and insist that they toe the line or else. Those would likely include shutting down terrorist groups like Hezbollah in Syria and Lebanon, expelling the senior Iraqi's who are in hiding there, and no more sending Islamist guerilla fighters or suicide bombers into Iraq. Bush is onto Syria's game and isn't going to put up with any more of it.

And after Syria, Iran. And after Iran, Libya. And after Libya, North Korea. When does it end?

When does it end?

Easy Question.

It ends when they get the message.

Repeat after me: "If you're a terrorist we're coming after you. If you finance terrorsts then you are yourself a terrorist and we're coming after you too. If you harbor terrorists then you are a terrorist and we're coming."

That's the long message. The short message is, "Don't try lying. It won't work. Either clean up your act re terrorism or we'll do it for you."

In the same way...

If you're an American, you are an absolute dick who couldn't give a shit about anything except for your SUV which you only bought because:

a) everyone else has one and it's American culture to do whatever needs to be done to fit in

or

b) you wanted to impress your neighbour

or

c) in America, a man's worth is determined by his possessions rather than the content of his character.

Adding integrity to the White House?

Another FOX sound bite, well-learned and uttered by another conservative lemming.

Because Curious George did not get an in-house BJ and claims to be religious perhaps? It will take way more than that for this administration to be able to use the word "integrity".

It is the people who decide whether or not their governance qualifies as integer. "integrity" is not to be self-awarded by its recipient nor inferred by its propaganda apparatus.

So far, only a lot broken promises. No real investigation of Enron, Crossing Roads, etc. Bush further reducing the already weak veteran's benefits, education funding in freefall, 40 million uninsured people. Unrestrained corporate corruption. These were ALL workhorses of the Bush campaign. Talk about integrity.

What kind of "achievements" are you talking about? You probably are thinking of the Afghan "success story", a country that is slowly returning to its pre-invasion mayhem. Notice how the media doesn't talk about it anymore. Too embarrassed to dent the oh so precious American pride?

You won't hear about Iraq either when things will get sour, and they will.
You'll just hear about Army helicopters timely crashing because they developed some "malfunction"...

A successful government is measured by how well it takes care of the majority of its population, not its rich minority.

You can dismiss my arguments all you want, but remember this: more arrogant empires have gone down.
All this strutting around posing around as "heroes" and "liberators", all this macho chest-thumping, these are the last twitches of an already putrefied cadaver.

The Republican Party has already hijacked the notion of patriotism, now it wants to invent a new copyright on "people who are motivated and get things done".
You want some fries with that?

You have a talent in making delusional idiocy look like a virtue.

Go liberate yourself,

Thomas Jefferson

Arianna writes:
"The whole pretext for our unilateral charge into Iraq..."
No, it wasn't unilateral...the Coalition of the Willing is comprised of some 35 nations. The US and Britain actually set foot in Iraq, but the other nations' contributions - even just moral support - cannot be discounted.

"...was that the American people were in imminent danger from Saddam and his mighty war machine."
Nope. We were in danger form the WMDs that Saddam could...and would...supply to terrorist groups.

"The threat was so clear and present that we couldn't even give inspectors searching for weapons of mass destruction -- hey, remember those? -- another 30 days, as France had wanted." The French wanted more time...and would have kept asking for extensions...not because of any altruistic reasons, but for cash. TotalFinaElf contracted to develop the southern oil fields worth an estimated 40 to 60 billion dollars. This contract could only be realized if Saddam remained in power. For a look at the other companies doing oil business with iraq, see this: http://www.futurodecuba.org/Quienes%20realmente%20se%20benefician%20del%20petroleo%20IRAQUI_.htm. Funny thing...no American companies in there.

"Well, it turns out that, far from being on the verge of destroying Western civilization, Saddam and his 21st century Gestapo couldn't even muster a half-hearted defense of their own capital."
Ever hear of "Shock and Awe"? We took out much of their command and control infrastructure early on...as well as many of the commanders and controllers. It's hard to organize a resisitance if you're dead.

"The invasion has proved wildly successful in one other regard: It has unified most of the world -- especially the Arab world -- against us."
Yeah...that explains all the terrorist attacks on American soil.

"Back in 1991, more than half-a-dozen Arab nations were part of our Desert Storm coalition. Operation Iraqi Freedom's "coalition of the willing" had zero...substituting Bulgaria and the island of Tonga for Egypt and Oman is just not going to cut it when it comes to winning hearts and minds on the Arab street."
Arianna isn't paying much attention. We're flying combat and support sorties from Oman, Egypt, Kuwait, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bahrain, the UAE, and Qatar. General Franks is RUNNING the war form Qatar. And those are all...ta da!...Muslim nations. Yeah, they hate us so much they let us load bombs on airplanes in their countries.

"In fact, almost everything about the invasion -- from the go-it-alone build-up to the mayhem the fall of Saddam has unleashed -- has played right into the hands of those intent on demonizing our country. "
Including, obviously, Arianna and the rest of the Left.

"The anti-war movement did not oppose the war out of fear that America was going to lose. It was the Bush administration's pathological and frantic obsession with an immediate, damn-the-consequences invasion that fueled the protests."
No it was the Bush administration...period. As much as the Left hates war, they hate Bush more, as evinced by the "Bush is Hitler!" mating call.

"And please don't point to jubilant Iraqis dancing in the streets to validate the case for "pre-emptive liberation." You'd be doing the Baghdad Bugaloo too if the murderous tyrant who'd been eating off golden plates while your family starved finally got what was coming to him." And who was going to give it to him? The French? Please. Had the anti-war movement gotten their way, those families would have gone on starving. And being tortured. And being killed. And being buried in mass graves. Could you sleep at night, knowing you had a hand in perpetuating that?

"It in no way proves that running roughshod over international law..."
You mean like UNSC Rresolution 1441, which authorized the war?

"It's important to remember that the Arab world has seen a very different war than we have. They are seeing babies with limbs blown off, children wailing beside their dead mothers, Arab journalists killed by American tanks and bombers, holy men hacked to death and dragged through the streets. They are seeing American forces leaving behind a wake of destruction, looting, hunger, humiliation, and chaos."
Uh, Arianna, it's a war...not lunch at the Brown Derby.

"Who's been handling our war PR, Osama bin Laden? The language and imagery are all wrong. Having Tom DeLay gush about our "army of virtue" at the same time we're blowing up mosques is definitely not sending the right message to a Muslim world already suspicious that we're waging a war on Islam."
If the regime didn't want us to blow up mosques, they shouldn't have put people inside them to shoot at us. Duh. Using a structure protected by international law for military purposes removes that protection. And there is no international law preventing troops...on either side...from defending themselves.

"Neither is Ari Fleischer's claim that the administration can't do anything to keep Christian missionaries -- including those who have described the Islamic prophet Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" and a "terrorist" -- from going on a holy crusade to Baghdad. You think the Arab world might take that the wrong way? If there is one thing that could bring Sunnis and Shiites together, it's the common hatred of evangelical zealots who denigrate their prophet."
And the Muslims who advocate and practice the "convert or die" ( or, for Jews, just "die") philosopy are any better? Give them a small break, Arianna. The missionaries who go to Iraq aren't going to push the "pedophile prophet" line, they're going to preach the gospel of love of Christ. If you antagonize the congragation, you're not gonna get any converts.

"And it doesn't help to have the American media referring to Jay Garner, the retired general Don Rumsfeld picked to oversee the rebuilding of Iraq, as "viceroy." It reeks of colonial imperialism. Why not just call him "Head Bwana?" Or "Garner of Arabia?" I didn't realize the Supreme Court had handed Bush a scepter to go along with the Florida recount."
Uh, Arianna, it's the media calling him that...not the government. I figured you could tell the difference...guess not.

"The powerful role that shame and humiliation have played in shaping world history is considerable, but something the Bush team seems utterly clueless about. Which is why the anti-war movement must be stalwart in its refusal to be silenced or browbeaten by the gloating "I told you so" chorus on the right. On the contrary, it needs to make sure that the doctrine of preemptive invasion is forever buried in the sands of Iraq."
Sure. Just don't open any packages postmarked "Syria".

there were so many fallacies in your post i dont know where to begin....
ALL those terrorist attacks?
what? was there more than one?
Iraq was responsible for the terrorist attacks on 911
please post credible links stating so....
no american companies doing business in iraq?
wasnt there a trade restriction preventing americans from doing so?
Surly iraq could have given a proper defence and used thier numerous WMD.
they didnt?
cuz they were destroyed? or there werent any?
of course, YOUR the expert in the air force.
All those muslim nations supported us eh?
or was it the governments of those countries?
1441 authorized the war eh?
i thought it was up to the united nations security council to decide?
you speak so authoritarian about the structure of warfare....
Have you ever been in combat?

Willful ignorance.

"ALL those terrorist attacks? "
Sarcasm. Referring to the terrorist attacks on US soil the Left was predicting (hoping) would be caused by the war...and that never happened.

"Iraq was responsible for the terrorist attacks on 911
please post credible links stating so.... "
Since our ideas of "credible" links differ so widely, I'm not going to bother. Your idea is one that blames anyone but Islamic extremists, and preferably, the US government.

"no american companies doing business in iraq?
wasnt there a trade restriction preventing americans from doing so?"
Yes. I was referring to the fact that no American oil companies have contracts in place or in negotiation with Iraq, despite what the left would have us believe.

"Surly iraq could have given a proper defence and used thier numerous WMD.
they didnt?
cuz they were destroyed? or there werent any?"
Pay atttention. It's because there wasn't anyone left to organize a proper defense or order the release of WMD.

"of course, YOUR the expert in the air force."
Yes; infinitely more so than you.

"All those muslim nations supported us eh?
or was it the governments of those countries?"
What's the difference? Are we supposed to negotiate Memoranda of Understanding with the people themselves? No. Governments deal with governments. I spent a lot of time in Oman, and the people there did support the US. Have you been to the Middle East?

"1441 authorized the war eh?
i thought it was up to the united nations security council to decide?"
The DID decide, in November, when they ratified 1441. You really ought to read it sometime.

"you speak so authoritarian about the structure of warfare....
Have you ever been in combat?"
No. But I can read, and do research. Have you been in combat? Have you ever served in uniform?

To all you rhetoric above...........
you proved nothing..... please provide credible links associating Iraq with 911 or other terrorist attacks in the US.

No WMD's //// how convienient............

governments deal with governments eh?
I guess the united nations members of the security council dont count.......
combat.......
yes i have
i served in panama in op just cause
and
served in the gulf war one
as
an airborne infantryman
and ranger qualified.
recieved numerous awards and medals and the CIB (twice)
and have lived all over the world in my military experiences............

Yeah...and Airanna Huffington is the last word in international affairs.

So, you served in combat. Good for you! Any particular reason I should believe you?

As for links, like I said, you won't believe any link I cite, will you. Any idiot can get something published on a web site. Look at Arianna.

"governments deal with governments eh?
I guess the united nations members of the security council dont count......."
You have absolutely no idea how it works, do you? UNSC members are appointed by and represent the positions of their governments, and through them (theoretically) their citizens.

Yes, i will believe any links you cite (provided they are credible)
yes, i am very knowledgeable (haha) about how the UN and how the security council works.
if they "work" through thier citizens, then tell me which of the above mentioned "muslim" nations is a democracy and works throught thier citizens vote?
thank you for supporting the constitution
and
defending it
from all ememies
foriegn
and
DOMESTIC////////////////

...any link I cite, provided it's credible?

That's convenient, isn't it? I think you meant to say you'll believe the link is credible if you agree with it.

"...then tell me which of the above mentioned "muslim" nations is a democracy and works throught thier citizens vote?"
None, so far as I know. In an ideal world, all governments would perfectly rperesent the feelings of their citizens. However, and I think we can agree on this, this is not an ideal world. That's why I inserted the "theoretically".

So you feel our government should negotiate MOU directly with the citizens of other countries? Heck, let's even cut our government out fo the deal! You go talk to the citizens of Syria and let them know we don't want any monkey business out of them.

I'll notify your next of kin.

Buy a dictionary.
read it aloud to GW ( your master)
and then read a book on logic......
tell ya what
GIMME ANY FUCKING LINKS ( i guess i lose again for profanity)
to support your argument.
Syria
what have they done to us?
harbor WMD?
what about israel?
they may strike us next......................

Why are you so intent on supporting terrorists and nations that support terrorists?

Isreal, strike us? Careful, your anti-Semitism is showing.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=68&ncid=68&e=3&u=/nyt/20030421/ts_nyt/illicit_arms_kept_till_eve_of_war__an_iraqi_scientist_is_said_to_assert

"The scientist also told American weapons experts that Iraq had secretly sent unconventional weapons and technology to Syria, starting in the mid-1990's, and that more recently Iraq was cooperating with Al Qaeda, the military officials said. "

But I doubt you'll find it credible.

This is to all you fucking idiots out there who just don't get it.


The USA is amazing. It is the only country in the world that stands for democracy, freedom and justice. It is the only country in the world where people have electricity, running water and food. We built this country by working hard unlike the people in the other countries. Now those people are jealous of our lifestyle - they're jealous of our freedoms. They don't like the fact that we appreciate diversity. I mean America is the only country in the world that doesn't have segregated communities. I CHALLENGE you to find me an American town which has a 97% white population. You won't find it in America because America is just that diverse.

Anyway, the people in other countries are all evil because they want to destroy our way of life. That's the way they are. That's why we are at war with them. Its either us or them. So I say we kill them all.

Just remember, we have to frequently water the trees of freedom with the blood of patriots. Don't take our freedoms for granted because there are absolutely no other countries in this world who have freedom or appreciate the things we do.

So stop whining! The US is not imperialist in any way. We are just defending ourselves from all non-Americans who want to destroy our way of life. Did I tell you already that the US is the only country in the world that is free?

Bottom line. The USA is right to fight these wars. They attacked us for absolutely no reason. It says in the
"Koran" (Quran) that all muslims should destroy America.

So you're either with us (Americans) or against us.

...shrill and tuneless. I think davie may be our designated replacement for Psympleton who had gotten too badly beat up to continue to be affective. Can't prove it but I think it a good working hypothesis. May even be the same person.

However, on to dimembering his SPAM.

We are amused at the contorted “logic” of the Spin Apparatus as they attempt to justify the conquest of the Iraqi Oil Fields:

davie writes:
“"Well, it turns out that, far from being on the verge of destroying Western civilization, Saddam and his 21st century Gestapo couldn't even muster a half-hearted defense of their own capital."
Ever hear of "Shock and Awe"? We took out much of their command and control infrastructure early on...as well as many of the commanders and controllers. It's hard to organize a resisitance if you're dead. “

Ever hear of “Cash and Carry”? Turns out that some of Saddam’s Military Commanders appear to have cut a deal to NOT fight. The word circulating in the Arab World is “Saqfa” meaning a deal cut in secret.


“"In fact, almost everything about the invasion -- from the go-it-alone build-up to the mayhem the fall of Saddam has unleashed -- has played right into the hands of those intent on demonizing our country. "
Including, obviously, Arianna and the rest of the Left. “

Actually no. To anyone who has a shred of integrity and is willing to look beyond Faux News. Every rationale the Bush Junta has put forward to justify this war has been ripped apart with fact and logic and shown to be the lie it is. I am sure they did have a rationale but it is not any of the ones Spun for public consumption.

“"The anti-war movement did not oppose the war out of fear that America was going to lose. It was the Bush administration's pathological and frantic obsession with an immediate, damn-the-consequences invasion that fueled the protests."
No it was the Bush administration...period. As much as the Left hates war, they hate Bush more, as evinced by the "Bush is Hitler!" mating call.”

The anti-war movement opposed the war because it was unnecessary and the toll in human life was unwarranted. No credible threat has EVER been proven. AGAIN every rationale the Bush Junta has forwarded has been shredded.

"It in no way proves that running roughshod over international law..."
You mean like UNSC Rresolution 1441, which authorized the war?

The language of 1441 was that “failure to comply would result in serious consequences.” Those consequences to be determined by the U.N. Security Council.
A. NO U.N. authorization for this war exists.
B. The Bush Junta’s rationale in this regard amounts to: “We have to violate the U.N. Charter to uphold the U.N. Charter.

"Neither is Ari Fleischer's claim that the administration can't do anything to keep “Christian missionaries -- including those who have described the Islamic prophet Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" and a "terrorist" -- from going on a holy crusade to Baghdad. You think the Arab world might take that the wrong way? If there is one thing that could bring Sunnis and Shiites together, it's the common hatred of evangelical zealots who denigrate their prophet."
And the Muslims who advocate and practice the "convert or die" ( or, for Jews, just "die") philosopy are any better? Give them a small break, Arianna. The missionaries who go to Iraq aren't going to push the "pedophile prophet" line, they're going to preach the gospel of love of Christ. If you antagonize the congragation, you're not gonna get any converts.”

Your argument may well have limited application in other Islamic dominated States. However, Iraq was a SECULAR State. Tariq Azziz is a Marionite Christian. There was still a small Jewish Population left even after the Iraqi Jews were set up by Israeli Zionists back in the 40’s and more or less forced to move. (Read Naim Gilead’s “The Jews of Iraq”. It is available readily on the web.) Of course the Evangelicals don’t like the Marionites much better than they like the Muslims but that is a different story. The U.S. before it was the U.S. was dominated by different Christian Factions at war with each other. If you did not subscribe to the regions particular brand of “Christianity” then there would be hell to pay. And of course good “God Fearing Christians”® did not kill the heathen by the thousands to hundreds of thousands - as in the Sacking of Jerusalem, the Albignesian Crusades, or the massacre of the Cathars? The phraseology is different but the blood spattered history of Western Christendom does not provide strong support for your case.

“"The powerful role that shame and humiliation have played in shaping world history is considerable, but something the Bush team seems utterly clueless about. Which is why the anti-war movement must be stalwart in its refusal to be silenced or browbeaten by the gloating "I told you so" chorus on the right. On the contrary, it needs to make sure that the doctrine of preemptive invasion is forever buried in the sands of Iraq."
Sure. Just don't open any packages postmarked "Syria". “

Notice the reply - Spin Set-up to justify the next war of aggression.

Later on another post:

“"Iraq was responsible for the terrorist attacks on 911
please post credible links stating so.... "
Since our ideas of "credible" links differ so widely, I'm not going to bother. Your idea is one that blames anyone but Islamic extremists, and preferably, the US government. “

It was never stated overtly. It was done very cleverly by associating Al-Qaeda with Saddam, and by using 911 - and the attack on Iraq in linked sentences. Very clever PR/Psyops. Create an association without ever stating a direct lie. I believe that there was one poll shortly before the attack that showed over half of the people polled as believing Saddam was responsible for 911. Kudos to the Spinners of the Bush Junta.

“"1441 authorized the war eh?
i thought it was up to the united nations security council to decide?"
The DID decide, in November, when they ratified 1441. You really ought to read it sometime.”

Again sticking to the Party Line LIE.

Conclusion: There is nothing new in any of davie's regurgitations. It is just the same old Party Line Faux News Rush Limbag SPIN. At no point did he factually refute any of the points made by Arianna in the original article. All that was presented was the PR line counters to confuse the issue.

Davie is PsyOps.

are PsyCho.

You beat up Simon? Hardly. He stomped you; you're just too witless to know it.

It's funny you refute what you call my "spin" with spin of your own. How many times did you have to repeat it before you believed it?

I stand by my every statement to Ariana's article. You calling it the "party line LIE" (does using caps lock make you right?) does not alter the truth...no matter what you'd like to think.

...to get to close to the facts. I did not say I stomped Psymon I said he was too beat up to continue being effective.

As to whethere I successfully refuted his Spam? I am comfortable with the arguments I made.

I'll let the Gallery decide for themselves.

I already know your response, but that's what you're paid to say.

I told you, I do this for free.

"I'll let the Gallery decide for themselves."

I.e.: "I'll let the Diogenes Fan Club say what I tell them to."

If I don't care what you think, what makes you think I care what THEY think?

Man, it must have been boring in here before the trolls started showing up.

...daveman.
It was more like an open source news wire.
Obviously, it is a threat to the heavy curtain of
media spin. Hence your (and your fellow campers)
presence and the attempted disruption of this site.
You weasels are more like flies and ants at a picnic.

...I came here because the Trolls were here. I enjoy dissecting their illogic and exposing it for the lies it is.

Everybody needs a hobby.

"Obviously, it is a threat to the heavy curtain of
media spin."

Uh huh. Whatever, Skippy.

"I enjoy dissecting their illogic and exposing it for the lies it is."

Too bad you're not very good at it.

...ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

Oh davie you are "such" a wit. Do you do Vegas? The Appalachians? The Ozarks?

In the elections of 2000 and 2002, America's Democratic left lost its grip on power. As the election of 2004 approaches, there's increasing evidence that it's losing its grip on reality. The May issue of The American Prospect features a hysterical rant by executive editor Harold Meyerson titled "The Most Dangerous President Ever." Now, I like a good polemic as much as the next fellow, and one doesn't pick up TAP expecting praise for the Bush administration, but this Meyerson guy is gaga.

Accusing President Bush of waging "a war on the mixed economy and the multilateral world order," Meyerson lapses into Louis Farrakhan-style numerology:

"What Bush seems determined to extirpate are the basic forms of common security in America. His particular targets seem disproportionately the handiwork of years ending in "5." From 1965, there's Medicare, which he seeks to subordinate to the pay-as-you-can calculus of HMOs; from 1945, there's the United Nations and the whole structure of postwar alliances, which he seeks to subordinate to an imperial America freed from international laws and treaties; from 1935, there's Social Security, which he still seeks to privatize, and the Wagner Act, whose pro-labor tilt he seeks to obliterate in his tax policy."

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/5/meyerson-h.html

Not surprisingly, Meyerson endorses the latest far-left (and far-right) trope: that "neoconservatives" are conspiring to bring about "unchallenged American hegemony." Then he informs us that "the neos', and the administration's, ability to see anything other than their own desires is in question":

"A couple of weeks into the war, it's now apparent just how ideologically blinkered the administration's view of Iraq actually was, and how that view has already imperiled our troops, the Iraqi people and any larger strategic objectives the war was supposed to serve.

In its overreliance on a small number of neo-friendly Iraqi expatriates to gauge the mood of the Iraqi people, in its belief that our forces would be greeted as liberators, the administration has made almost the identical error that the Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations made at the Bay of Pigs. In each instance, ideology and hope were substituted for factual assessment; in each instance, the people have not risen to join U.S.-backed forces (in Cuba) or U.S. forces (in Iraq) to overthrow their tyrant. In Iraq the administration has underestimated the size and intensity of the forces committed to fighting for Saddam Hussein--forgetting everything we have learned about the infrastructure of a modern totalitarian state."

Now, this sort of defeatist (or wishful) thinking was plausible for a few days back in March, but according to TAP's homepage, the magazine published Meyerson's article on April 11--TWO DAYS AFTER THELIBERATION OF BAGHDAD! Oh, and Meyerson complains that "no level of factual refutation seems to make a dent" in the president's foreign policy.

Meyerson concludes by asking which past president Bush most closely resembles. He runs down a list: FDR, McKinley, Polk, Wilson, Truman:

"None of these presidents, great or awful, seems quite comparable to Bush the Younger. There is another, however, who comes to mind. He, too, had a relentlessly regional perspective, and a clear sense of estrangement from that part of America that did not support him. He was not much impressed with the claims of wage labor. His values were militaristic. He had dreams of building an empire at gunpoint. And he was willing to tear up the larger political order, which had worked reasonably well for about 60 years, to advance his factional cause. The American president--though not of the United States--whom George W. Bush most nearly resembles is the Confederacy's Jefferson Davis. . . .

As with Davis, obtaining Bush's defeat is an urgent matter of national security--and national honor."

http://www.prospect.org/

Does Meyerson actually mean to call for civil war? If so, what military force would fight it? Charlie Rangel's conscript army?

Then there's the case of Josh Marshall, once one of the nation's most thoughtful young liberal commentators. I am deeply saddened to report that he, too, seems to be developing an increasingly standoffish relationship with reality. His cover story in The Washington Monthly last week puts forth the neocon-conspiracy theory, albeit without the anti-Semitism that is central to the fever-swamp version.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0304.marshall.html

In an entry on his TalkingPointsMemo blog, he responds to criticism by denying that his is a conspiracy theory. "I never used phrases like 'secret plan' or 'conspiracy,' " he protests--as if a clever writer like Marshall could not formulate a conspiracy theory without actually mentioning the word.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/april0303.html#041803357pm

One of the characteristics of conspiracy theories is that they are irrefutable, by virtue of being infinitely flexible. Present a conspiracy theorist with evidence that argues against his theory, and he will explain that it actually confirms the theory. To him, evidence that appears contrary simply illustrates the conspirators' power to manipulate appearances.

Marshall's central claim is that the Bush administration and the "neocons" deceived the public into thinking Iraq was a one-off war, when in fact they conceive of America as being engaged in a wider conflict and they have a broader vision of bringing democratic reform to the Middle East. It's well documented that no such deception is taking place--that President Bush has said all these things in his public speeches. And Marshall responds in typical conspiratorial fashion:

"I think the whole argument that I'm wrong on the deception point actually collapses under the crushing weight of its own insubstantiality. The great need to refute this argument virtually confirms the impossibility of its refutation.

Here's why. What if I said, "The President passed a huge tax cut. But he kept from everyone that he thinks it'll spur economic growth!!" Or maybe, "Sure the president wants to build a national missile defense, but he's not telling anyone that it's intended to knock down limited missile attacks from rogue states!!" No one would respond. And they certainly wouldn't get bent out of shape about it. They wouldn't even care. Why? Because no one feels accused if they're alleged not to have told people something that everyone actually already knows."

So you see, Bush is so devious that he's been hiding his intentions IN PLAIN SIGHT. His "straightforwardness" is actually a neocon mind game, and those on the right fell for it. Well, we've learned our lesson. Next time Paul Wolfowitz asks if he can implant a chip in my brain, I'm telling him no dice.

...than a twit.

I should know, as I am the father of all twits.

Good points!

>>One of the characteristics of conspiracy theories is that they are irrefutable, by
virtue of being infinitely flexible. Present a conspiracy theorist with evidence that
argues against his theory, and he will explain that it actually confirms the theory.
To him, evidence that appears contrary simply illustrates the conspirators'
power to manipulate appearances.<<

And that paragraph alone summarizes the whole of Sheepdogs and Diogenes existance.

...I wouldn't know "evidence" if it bit me on my cellulite-laden ass.

...of two little girls.

gry:
I'd agree with you, but if two people believe something against Diogones, it's another Conspiracy to Shut Them Up (tm).

Oh, heck...I agree with you!

Bend over, assclown.

That's the best you got?

Very impressive.

/sarcasm off

"HA HA HA HA!"
That's the best you got?

Very impressive. NOT.

/sarcasm off

This is getting cerebral. We better get Chomsky in here!

Limbaugh would bring this thread to new lows.

I'm being followed.

I am, too.

...how when the Shills lose badly enough they SPAM up the thread to bury it.

There's a communist hiding underneath my bed. Where's Senator McCarthy when you need him?

You conservatives are so stupid. Two can play that game.

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"You conservatives are so stupid."

How'd you know? Was it our imbecilic logic?