Each year, over 400,000 Africans come to the US on some kind of visa, and some 20,000 are naturalized!!

What is wrong with these people? Don't they realize that this is just a sick, racist society which really hasn't evolved from its slaveholding roots??

I recently had the opportunity to spend an hour in a car with a man who came to the US from Ghana six months ago. (The parking lot attendant lost my key, and he drove me home to get my spare, then back again.)

We talked about his expectations on coming here to the US, and he acknowledged that things are quite what he expected. He said he thought everyone in America was rich and thought he'd be doing much better.

His family is all still in Africa, except his brother. I asked him if he ever thought about going back, and he just said "No. This is my home now."

I guess no one is blinder than he who will not see.

things are NOT quite as he expected.

Two main reason I can think of:

1: After continually raping their lands and setting up brutal dictatorships and exporting raw materials and resources, America and the multinatl. corps. are using 70-80% of the worlds resources. Immigrant are not stupid. They can see this and are tired of living on scraps and picking thru America's exported garbage. They come here to try and get some of the 70-80% of world resources that this country so greedily and mercilessly strips. from their home nations.

2: It helps American corps to have a steady undiluted stream of surplus labor to squash unions, keep wages low, and keep 98% of humanity chasing the brass ring. Immigrants put up with racism here and still need jobs. Some 'make' it, if buying an SUV and a flat screen giant TV can be said to be making it. Some $$, a tiny amount compared to the gorging going on by the superrich, is sent back to home nations to alleviate the US/multinatl corp imposed poverty there.

The process of acculturation that then occurs seeks to erase all indigenous belief systems anc culture and then traps the person into the cycle of capitalist vampirism of which we are all aware (of course the shills are still in their infantile denial.)

We are all immigrant here, except for the Native Americans who have been forced into a caste-like position. The children of the immigrants are the dream, and so we must work with the young to help them realize that another system of life, rather than militarist capitalism, is possible.

Damn laptops...

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is not the answer. Fine tuning what already exists is. Democratic capatilism can work around the world and will continue to be exported and fine tuned.

We need to change the tune.

Death squads and military intervention seems to be the

tools of capitalism so far.

...of an IMF-sponsored Nobel Prize in Economics!

Let's victimize the poor! We need to get that latex down the Congo River by any means neccesary. Industry must not be hampered.

The horror!! The horror!!

How do you figure the US is "raping" Ghana?

They import .83 billion in goods. . .

and receive .9 billion in foreign aid!!!

Could it be that Ghana is poor because it is ranked 113th out of 161 nations in economic freedom (private property rights, regulation, government interference, trade policy)?

Hmmmm. Sounds like our friend from Ghana is no fool!

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"

The above quote. Read that. Bunches of us refuse to live under that type of economy. You can't make us. So, what are you going to do about it?

Keep the factories humming, keep the dictators in place.

The IMF is on the way to ratchet up the debt and then the US can apply debt relief and nothing changes.

That's how it works. That's what you have to get used to.

Is there another possiblity? For humans who have landed a person on the moon, and created such exquisite art, and delved into the heart of the universe's age?

You are saying "No, we have to keep everything just like it is." That type of response is a de-evolution in progress. It is a retreat from reason. Get used to that.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"

The above quote. Read that. Bunches of us refuse to live under that type of economy. You can't make us. So, what are you going to do about it?

---------------------------

Enough tippy-type pyscho-babble. Just answer the question.

So, you want to doom us to repeating history?

Haven't you learned anything during your time on Earth? Or, even, just in the past few weeks?

Keep your boy scout quotes and elementary solipsims to yourself.

This is like pulling teeth.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"

--->Haven't you learned anything during your time on Earth?

I've learned enough that people who have lived under this type of economy have done so looking down the barrel of a gun. For what reason do I have to believe it would ever be any different?

I'm not willing to live that way. Neither are many, many others. What are you going to do about it?

of idiots will doom us all.

>The mindless rule of idiots will doom us all.

Another reason communism won't work.

Is it really that hard for you to tell me what your going to do tho those of us who refuse to live under that type of economy? Certainly you have an answer. Or do you call it a "final solution"?

>Keep your boy scout quotes and elementary solipsims to yourself.

And I'll do what I damn well please.

Sorry you shill, I won't play your silly game. Go off and play with your gijoes now like a nice little turd.

>Haven't you learned anything in just in the past few weeks?

I've been given further evidence to ignore people like you.

Good choice. I think circles around you.

"Sorry you shill, I won't play your silly game. Go off and play with your gijoes now like a nice little turd"

Jesus you're pathetic. Nonsense pours out of your mouth and then when called on it your revert to that same scared, picked on loser that you were as a child. Grow up and get out of the basement, and answer his question.

Frescabot, I am Parmenides, not Diogenes. He has a completely difft. wrtiting style!

I get tired of shill tactics after awhile, diverting reason, obfuscating, offering pointless escalations, exasperating the situation, typical military (weak) mind.

I have made my points. I stand by them. I do not have to justify or explain anything to the likes of you!

The IMF is wrong. It steals from the poorest so the richest get to splurge more on stupid gadgets. Try reading my 1st post for more details...

ByeBye

...you still have not answered econ's question.

After the revolution, how are you going to enforce your policies?

A more basic question: How are you going to enact the glorious revolution?

"Frescabot, I am Parmenides, not Diogenes."

You have EXACTLY the same writhing style. Complete with your obsession with words like "obfuscation" and "turds". Your ending most posts with some irrelevant quote. Your style of double spacing. Your use of three periods before an opening quote instead of quotation marks. LOL. You can't even pretend well. No wonder your "theories" are so half-baked.

Dio, you continue to degrade.

...your first post.

A man living in an awful place came to America. It wasn't everything he thought it would be, but it's still far better than what he left.

You don't understand why he doesn't think it's the hellhole you think it is.

The problem is, you have no common frame of reference. Therefore, you need to move to Ghana and see what it was like for him there.

Then we'll see if you think the USA is such a cesspool.

Shall I book a ticket for you?

You believe this mindles twattle?

It seems the shills have lost all perception. I guess anyone who does not accept their little world of capitalist despair looks and sounds alike to them.

...the revolution, Paramenides?

And can I borrow your tinfoil hat?

Can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.

Couldn't FIND their ass in a phone booth.

Need directions how to pee into their boot, etc.

Yes these are our little camp of weasels.

Target practice, chum, chaff, scum and BS.

Welcome to my world.

>They be morons

Can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.

Couldn't FIND their ass in a phone booth.

Need directions how to pee into their boot, etc.

If they can't even do this

How they gonna start a revolution?

And those of us who refuse to live under

"From each according to his ability

To each according to his needs"

How you gonna make be part of an economy

We refuse to cooperate in?

Not me...got a little money in the bank, got some wheels...

Now you, when you get a job flippin' burgers and put that liberal arts education to work, then you'll cheer up.

"One thing I don't get?"

-One thing I don't get is, how come every time I write to this website, it seems like everyone quits writitng? Or, the damn site goes down. Does my breath stink or something?

It's all about me.

I think "me" is actually Diagones. It's Diagones' way of venting all the frustration from being stifled over and over again. "I know how to get them back, I'll take on an alias and say mean things I can't normally say, that'll show 'em."

Pansy.

Hi Parmenides. As much as I respect your basic humanity and decency I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. Not so much as to what we would like to see in a Just world but in how we arrive at the destination. As for the Shills they can blabber all they want. Mostly they are just so insipid that I find them amusing - as one would a not very bright child. One must pity them to some degree as they are frequently just the servants of some master who directs for them their thoughts and actions. In other words they are Slaves selling the concept of Slavery for others. Their Karma will, in the end, destroy them.

Fresca you are so far out in “left field” in attempting to establish an identity between Parmenides and myself as to leave me with a wide smile. You need to retake Symbolic Logic.

Okay, now on with the main line of the debate:

“From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs” is nicely poetic on first glance and in practice it is tyranny. The reality is more like from each who contributes to whoever wants some. It is an economic philosophy that relies upon people to contribute their labor to someone else whether they want to or not irrespective of that other persons actual ability to produce enough to support themselves. This means to make it work you must FORCE someone to contribute. Another name for this is tyranny. Ultimately all forms of Socialism and Communism rely upon force to achieve their aims. The classic analysis of this and why it is so was written by the Great Austrian-American Economist Friedrich Von Hayek, who began his Economic Career a Socialist and ended a Libertarian. The book is “The Road To Serfdom”. A more complex but rewarding read is “The Constitution of Liberty”.

The “Road to Serfdom” is available in an abridged Illustrated Version online at: http://www.mises.org/TRTS.htm

For one, such as myself, who values as a first principle of government the protection of individual liberty the foregoing is a philosophy I reject. We live in a world where ability and the willingness to work is not distributed equally. This does not mean that I believe that all are not capable of contributing as I do. However, where one person is willing to work hard to get ahead, so long as they do not impede another’s ability to enjoy their own liberty, they should not be penalized for doing so by taking from them what they have earned, the fruit of their labors, to give to someone who was not willing to work, or not as hard anyway. However, that is exactly what Socialism and Communism do: They take from the productive to give to the unproductive. You can gussy it up with all sorts of cute justifications and sophistry but that is what it boils down to: Taking from those willing to work to give to those unwilling to work. This requires the use of force either real or threatened. Don’t pay your “fair share” and the men with guns come to take you away to the “Work Camp” or “Reeducation Center”.

In the real world it has worked out even worse. In the old Soviet Union, a Socialist “Republic”, you had the vast majority of people living in, by American standards, squalor and oppression, and a small privileged elite living in comparative luxury with Dachas and Limousines. It was also one of the most heavily polluted countries on the planet - in some industrial areas due to pollution the average life span was cut to somewhere in the mid 40s. In other words the philosophy on paper did not translate into the real world. Much the same still exists in that Tyranny known as the “People’s” Republic of China. You have a small ruling class with a large population of people who are NOT free.

As awful as the depredations of the American Plutocratic Class has been the record of Socialist/Communist Regimes is worse. Depending upon whose estimates you use the “body count” for such regimes in the 20th Century was over 100 MILLION DEAD. Stalin about 60 Million, Mao 20 to 60 Million (the numbers for China have more slop as they are more controlled than even the old Soviet Union was). The Khmer Rouge of the “Killing Fields” of Cambodia were a Communist Movement. As much as the Hard Left hates to have it hung around their neck NAZI is an acronym for NATIONAL SOCIALIST GERMAN WORKERS PARTY INTERNATIONAL. Largely a creature of the left with elements of Fascism thrown in. Sort of mutant with the worst of both worlds Left and Right. However, Hitler’s Body County was a mere 13 Million compared to Stalin’s 60 Million.

Under the benign regime of those great humanitarians - Lenin, Stalin, Beria - the cowering masses of the Worker's Paradise retreated into highest per capita consumption of Vodka in the world. A signal achievement. Need I cite the "liquidation" of the Kulaks - small Free Farm holders who were opposed to having their Farms “Collectivized” i.e., confiscated. Or Mao's famous comment that "Political power comes from the barrel of a gun". I like the running joke in the old soviet Union- the Russian sense of humor: “Under Capitalism man exploits man, under socialism it is vice versa”. Then there was the liquidation of the Resistance at the end of W.W.II by Soviet forces - under Stalin's cultured hand? The Katyn Forest massacre is a matter of historical record. Stalin made Hitler's 13 million or so look like small change.

Look into the funding for most socialist organizations and you can follow the money back to the Plutocrats we both abhor. Let me make this stark - the Plutocrats pulling the puppet strings benefit from a socialist system. They have protected their wealth from confiscation by writing the tax laws and secreting it in Foundations that they control. The “device” of the “Family Trust” written into the Tax Laws protect the family fortune from inheritance taxes - which are only paid by people who are in the Middle to Upper Middle Class. The Plutocrats want socialism because it keeps the proles quiet - bread and circuses and "do what you are told". It cements their position and their control. The false argument about publicly funded health care, frequently surfaced as defense of Socialist Policies, is a great diversion from the core issues because people do want to lead happy healthy lives. However, the institutionalized mediocrity of a socialist system supports the status quo and would lock out alternative health care. I am sure the AMA would love it. I despise that Monopoly known as the AMA and their brand of Pharmaceutical Company Medicine. And just as importantly to the Plutocrats nobody has the ability to become wealthy enough to oppose them under a socialist system - punitive tax laws see to that.

Despite despite it’s failings the U.S. Constitution has allowed more people to live under some semblance of freedom than any Socialist system you can cite. I render that a gentlemanly challenge - prove me wrong. Under Stalin's paradise saying the wrong thing to the wrong ears earned you a bullet in the head or a railroad ride to a "Camp" in Siberia. Nor is their much difference in any other Communist regime you can cite. This debate we are having would have resulted in a Death Sentence in any major socialist regime.

However, given all the foregoing do not count me as an avid supporter of our current Crony Capitalist Plutocracy. It is about as far as you can get from what our Founding Fathers established as Stalin’s Russia. I have lived in the Third World and the predation of U.S. Businessmen is undeniable, disgusting, and shameful. Wherever possible I, a protest of one, shun the products and services of those companies whose behavior is often beyond unacceptable. South American Death Squads trained and financed by the U.S. government goes against every principle of goodness held by most Americans. Problem is until the Internet the Propaganda Organs of the Plutocracy were able to shut down the free flow of information by buying up the major papers and TV Networks.

I could add a lot more as this is and will, no doubt, as it will continue to be a bone of contention between the Principled Left and the Principled Right, but it would take a much longer essay to explore further. I doubt it would be read.

Yet more steaming piles of shit from the genius that is Diogenes. Get this Diogenes, just because what you write is long, doesn't mean it's worth a shit. I read the whole thing and I can hardly find anything in it worth commenting on. It simply sucks.

...don't read them. See, wasn't that an easy solution?

However you are no doubt a Shill and it's your job. Oh, Well we all have our crosses to bear.

"Fresca you are so far out in “left field” in attempting to establish an identity between Parmenides and myself as to leave me with a wide smile. You need to retake Symbolic Logic."

"Symbolic LOgic"? Where the hell did that come from?

And I think it's amazing that you are now arguing with yourself in order to keep up this charade.

You are priceless. I'd love to meet you.

Get this straight.

You're going to cut the arrogant attitude bullshit

Or I'm going to cut it for you.

X

Your constant cry of "Shill!"

Is getting rather shrill.

Thank you.

P.S.: I don't get paid to disagree with you. It's a freebie.

...you don't want me posting so now you are resorting to threats to shut me up?

Why?

noone said they didnt want u 2 post they said you need to cut out the arrogant attitude bullshit so just post w/out the arrogant attitude bullshit and ull b ok

Yes Diogenes, I can understnd where you are coming from, in terms of the libertarian bent. I consider myself more of an ecoanarchist than anything else, although there are certainly many potential problems with such a system (I really do not want a debate on ecophilosophy however).

In terms of capitalist excesses, I stand by my earlier statements and see no reason to repeat them here and now. Diogenes, we have disaggreed on numerous issues, mostly sematic and philosophical, although I have always found your posts lucid, relevant, and highly informative. I believe though, on the issue of the rotteness which is festering within the soul of the American experiment we do agree. I look forward, as always, to your nest post.

Enjoy the weekend. And like the singer (whose name escapes me at this busy moment) said: "First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin."

Parmenides>MetaphysicanExtroadinaire

sorry about the typos !!

...back through my postings I don't get nasty unless one of the following things happens first:

A. Someone insults me first.

B. Or someone posts something that I believe to be false and often knowingly false.

Take davemoron for example: I treat him with all the respect he has earned. None. He routinely insults and harangues people without adding anything of any substance to the debate.

Honest disagreements are one thing. If you look at my above long post it is an essay arguing for my point of view. I prize Freedom first among my Political Ideals.

I do not like lies and I will call a spade a spade.

If that knocks someones nose out of joint realize please that I do not do it to be insulting - usually. I'm not a Saint. I'm an ordinary man just like everyone else who posts here.

I don't expect you or anyone else to take my point of view unexamined. Feel free to offer counter arguments. My record is clear. Prove me wrong and I will own up.

\Someone insults me first.\

That's your problem. Don't respond in kind.

\Or someone posts something that I believe to be false and often knowingly false.\

What you believe doesn't matter. In fact, if you don't believe it, it's likely the truth.

\I treat him with all the respect he has earned. None. He routinely insults and harangues people without adding anything of any substance to the debate.\

You treat daveman and all conservatives like they're God on Earth. You've been warned.



\I prize Freedom first among my Political Ideals.\

Then exercise your freedom to not have an attitude or act arrogant.

\I do not like lies and I will call a spade a spade.\

For someone who tells mainly lies, ......... Don't like lies, huh?? We don't believe you.

\If that knocks someones nose out of joint realize please that I do not do it to be insulting - usually.\

Not "ususally" ever again. It better be "never" and you better cool your jets or I'll cool them for you.

When you physically threaten Diogenes' type, they get even more convinced someone is out to "shut them up".

You're just feeding the fire, man. His ego is already large enough.

...I have told?

I am not going to say I am always right, but I do not knowingly lie.

And I don't treat all Conservatives like shit. I have actually even agreed with B.A. and Psymple Psymon on occaision.

I am a Libertarian - that means that there are a lot of things that I agree with Conservatives on.

The War is not one of them

Economics frequently is.

However there are disagreements even among Conservatives. There were many Conservatives against this War. Pat Buchanan is one and I don't think anyone is going to mistake him for a Leftist.

Because I post here does not make me a Leftist as much as some of the NeoCons would like to try to paint me.

I am probably to the Right of most of the people calling themselves Conservatives that Post here.

I am a staunch Jeffersonian Constitutionalist.

I just refuse to turn a blind eye to something that is wrong just because the person uttering it claims to be a Conservative.

Being a Conservative does not imbue infallibility. The Left is not always wrong just by virtue of being on the Left.

We are all stuck on this Planet together and have got to figure out some way to get along without killing each other. I, frankly, am tired of all the blood.

And I am a Veteran. I did my duty.

they believe that way anyway

got no problem with him posting

attitude adjustment is in order

same goes for sheepdog

and any other left-leaners

need to state their case

and move on

without the attitude

fuck off all y'all conservative hillbillies.

YEEEEEEEHAW!

Geet em ya' ol' hi-billy!

Welcome to the world of debate Diogenes, and the rest of you for that matter. This thread is a perfect example of how honest debate and sharing of views can turn sour. Think about it, if each one of you had your own country, I'll bet that in minutes one of you would have thrown a "punch".

Don't take it so personally. Not your subject matter, that should be taken very personally. Do not resort to insults when it may be clear that someone thinks differently or, in some cases, just plain has a point and maybe your views are changing.

The problem here is that we all believe what we believe, and we ain't changing for noone right? Well, guess what? That is WRONG. Think of the world as an enourmous marriage. Sometimes, you just have to admit that maybe you're wrong. And when that happens, the convincer also has a resposibility to not rub it in or say "told ya so". Because all this does is rekindle the contempt of others.

Stick to the issues and the facts. Work to discredit eachothers point of view, not their existence altogether.

Be respectful, it works.

this isn't up for discussion

cut the attitude

or suffer the consequences

your choice

...specify. Cite examples of what you mean.

Otherwise all it is is cheap threats by someone who can't deal with somebody who holds a different opinion.

...I will not be intimidated into silence. Fuck you, Fuck your threats, the horse you road in on and the Rat that followed you.

"You cannot conquer a free man. The most you can do is kill him." - Robert Heinlein

Diogenes

It is easy for the mindless to attack a man of substance.

Ignore them

And we all are scared of the Cap X key.

Please don't use it again!

You have ALL spiraled into the realm of stupidity.

KNOCK IT OFF!!!!! You are all being equally stupid, especially you Diogenes, you're a real asshole.

Shut up

Look here, uh, ALL READ, go somewhere and be a numb nuts

because here you just look like an big wouse.

Or hold down the X key, no one cares.

Lick it, sheepfucker or whatever the hell your faggy name is, I don't give a fuck what you think. Suck my ass faggot!!!!!!

Another peabrain pushed over the edge.

Life is good.

Sometimes you just gotta have a Michelobe.

Bend over, assclown.