Traffic backed up as they took to the streets.

They marched!

They chanted!

They held die-ins in the middle of Crenshaw!

They shot up peace signs, under the close watch of the LAPD!

They charged!

They held hands and sang "Redemption Song."

That is...if they knew the words! Hahaha!

Sucess!!

Actually, it was "If I Only Had a Brain."

I am so glad to see the youth of America come out and stand up for what is good and right!!! This is what makes me proud to be an American. I am thrilled to see that they can see right through the military-industrial complex which has held this nation hostage for far too many years.

Heidi, thanks for your wonderful photos. You seem to have really captured the Amreican spirit that shown there today!!! BRAVO to all of you!!!

That NION is run by the Revolutionary Communist Party?

Nice blue banner and signs from the comrades.

Funny, the communist party line always sounds so.. utopian - until you take a look at the track record.

100 million dead and counting. When ~will you get it right?

and laugh about the cold war being "over" -
take a look at this:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news065.htm

Figure 1: Russian Defense Budget, acquisitions and maintenance, based on RosBusinessConsulting data, January 2003.

The Republican Party is run by a group of men in a secret society from Yale whose rites include painting oneself blue and masturbating, and re-enacting the NYPD torture of Louima with a broom handle while chanting "Eat the poor."

Lenin pegged these folks a long time ago. Please read one of the greatest historians alive today at http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003302 and reconsider your protests.

NION is run by the Communist party??????? Geeez: It know it's late and it's close to my bed time, but could you skip the fairy tale bed time story tonight?

I am sorry, but your post cracked me up. I grew up in Riverside County very near to the Orange County line in the 60's. I still remember the little old ladies in their tennis shoes and the John Birch Society. Ummm, Max, I think you are in a Time Warp. I haven't heard that Commie line for a very long time. Sorry, not buying what you are selling.

Well, at least you gave me a good laugh. BTW: I frankly do NOT care if NION is associated with the Communist party because Peace belongs to everyone and it's good for everyone - even Freepers like you.

Well, maybe some of the RCP drive Toyotas, so Toyota must be a front group for the RCP...Hmmmm? I've seen some of the RCYB wearing New Balance, so New Balance must be a front group for the RCP???Very interesting???With this logic, we can red-bait everyone, create dissension, distrust, even slander...in the mean time we don't need to promote Unity..and in the end, all the different political trends can argue and fight amongst themselves, while the US plunders the world,,,,,McCarthy would be proud..

error

you throw around the number of dead like a poker game.

how many deaths have been caused by imperialism

well i know for sure this past week it caused 2,000 in iraq

Way to go, daveman. Whenever we conservatives don't have a valid argument, we can always just post pretty little propaganda pictures. Great job!

Where did imperalism kill 2,000 people last week?

Oh, you mean US Imperialism (TM).

Would you please point out to me the countries we have invaded and kept? Thanks.

Show documentation that communism has killed 100 million people. NO, you can't cite Fox News. This ought to be good.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/COUBLA.html

Read it yourself.

I already have.

This ought to be good.

Gee, maybe I should have been more specific. SCIENTIFIC documentation, not fictional novels by graduate students. Try again.

Stéphane Courtois is Director of Research at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique (CNRS) in Paris, and editor of the journal Communisme.

Nicolas Werth is a researcher at the Institute for Contemporary History. Jean-Louis Panné collaborated on the Dictionnaire biographique du mouvement ouvrier français.

Andrzej Paczkowski is Deputy Director and a professor at the Institute for Political Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences.

Karel Bartosek is acting head of research at CNRS and the editor of the journal La nouvelle alternative.

Jean-Louis Margolin is a lecturer in history and coordinator of lectures at the University of Provence and a researcher at the Research Institute on Southeast Asia of CNRS.

YOU try again, you ignorant Leftist swine.

"Political studies" is NOT science. Talk about ignorant! Try again.

*sigh*

Weren't you the one harping on me for not having an open mind?

Pot, meet kettle.

Science is backed with IRREFUTABLE PROOF, unlike political opinions. Try again.

Well, my learned Leftist, let's start with a single incident.

Namely the intentional starvation of 6-10 million Ukrainians by the Communists of the Soviet Union.

How about a little bibliography?

http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/bibliography/

That should keep you busy for a while.

Check this website out, as well.

http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/famsecret.htm

Oh, and here's an original document from the Library of Congress:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pjones/russian/pics/k3grain.gif

And here's the translation:

Addendum to the minutes of Politburo [meeting] No. 93.

RESOLUTION OF THE COUNCIL OF PEOPLE'S COMMISSARS OF THE UKRAINIAN
SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLIC AND OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE
COMMUNIST PARTY (BOLSHEVIK) OF UKRAINE ON BLACKLISTING VILLAGES
THAT MALICIOUSLY SABOTAGE THE COLLECTION OF GRAIN.

In view of the shameful collapse of grain collection in the
more remote regions of Ukraine, the Council of People's
Commissars and the Central Committee call upon the oblast
executive committees and the oblast [party] committees as well as
the raion executive committees and the raion [party] committees:
to break up the sabotage of grain collection, which has been
organized by kulak and counterrevolutionary elements; to
liquidate the resistance of some of the rural communists, who in
fact have become the leaders of the sabotage; to eliminate the
passivity and complacency toward the saboteurs, incompatible with
being a party member; and to ensure, with maximum speed, full and
absolute compliance with the plan for grain collection.

The Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee
resolve:

To place the following villages on the black list for overt
disruption of the grain collection plan and for malicious
sabotage, organized by kulak and counterrevolutionary elements:

1. village of Verbka in Pavlograd raion, Dnepropetrovsk
oblast.

...

5. village of Sviatotroitskoe in Troitsk raion, Odessa oblast.

6. village of Peski in Bashtan raion, Odessa oblast.

The following measures should be undertaken with respect to
these villages :

1. Immediate cessation of delivery of goods, complete
suspension of cooperative and state trade in the villages, and
removal of all available goods from cooperative and state stores.

2. Full prohibition of collective farm trade for both
collective farms and collective farmers, and for private farmers.

3. Cessation of any sort of credit and demand for early
repayment of credit and other financial obligations.

4. Investigation and purge of all sorts of foreign and
hostile elements from cooperative and state institutions, to be
carried out by organs of the Workers and Peasants Inspectorate.

5. Investigation and purge of collective farms in these
villages, with removal of counterrevolutionary elements and
organizers of grain collection disruption.

The Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee
call upon all collective and private farmers who are honest and
dedicated to Soviet rule to organize all their efforts for a
merciless struggle against kulaks and their accomplices in order
to: defeat in their villages the kulak sabotage of grain
collection; fulfill honestly and conscientiously their grain
collection obligations to the Soviet authorities; and strengthen
collective farms.

CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNCIL OF PEOPLE'S
COMMISSARS OF THE UKRAINIAN SOVIET SOCIALIST
REPUBLIC - V. CHUBAR'.

SECRETARY OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE
COMMUNIST PARTY (BOLSHEVIK) OF UKRAINE - S.
KOSIOR.

6 December 1932.

True copy

Any more questions, son?

Whattaya want, 100,000,000 graves dug up? Count the legs and divide by 2?

You know, if you keep your head in the sand your butt gets shot off.

Then maybe you should stop thinking with your ass.

Nowhere on those sites did it say "communism has killed 100 million people." Try again. This time, no more novels. I'm talking SCIENCE here, not politics.

"Eric" we are talking about a specific event now. The Ukrainian famine of 1932-33. The reason we are doing so is because of your unwillingness to accept the veracity of the work done by the scholars which compiled the Black Book of Communism.

Hence you would find no reference to 100 million killed in these documents.

You will find reference to 6-10 million killed. Intentionally. Starved to death in the breadbasket of Europe by Communists.

This is the starting point. Once you are forced, kicking and screaming, to accept that your Leftist associates murdered 6-10 million people we will go on to the next atrocity. We will, by this method get to at least 100 million dead by murder at the hands of the Communists.

Communists are my "Leftist associates?" Oh, like fascists are YOUR associates? Yeah, those fascists were angels. They never killed anyone. Try again

Duck and weave, Eric.

Duck and weave.

6-10 million Ukrainians starved to death by the Soviet Communists.

Accept it yet?

Oh, is that the new math? 6-10 million = 100 million? Try again.

Eric you are beginning to act like a child.

Perhaps I am being too generous.

Again, my recalcitrant pupil, I will explain how this lesson will proceed.

1. The claim has been made that the Communists are responsible for 100 million intentional deaths (not soldiers killed in combat, nor civilians killed in bombing or shelling during time of war who were not intentionally targeted) worldwide since 1918.

You have refuted this claim.

2. In an attempt to prove this claim, I presented you with a link to The Black Book of Communism - an exhaustive reference on the subject.

You have refuted the veracity of this book.

3. Now we are going to go through Communist atrocities one by one, starting with the Ukrainian famine. As the evidence to support these crimes begins to stack up, you will be forced to accept that the crimes did, in fact, occur. And thus, you will be brought to your 100 million number eventually.

So buckle up.

SEE NOW YUO DUMB LEFTYS!!!

THE BLAK BOKE OF COMMANISM WILL SHOW YUO HOW MANY PEEPLE WERE KILLED BY COMANISTS!!

WHO CARES IF THE EDATORS CLAMES OF 100 MILYUN DED PEEPLE WERE REFUTED BY THE REST OF THE AWTHERS OF THE BOKE!!! THEY ARE DUMB!!!

AMARICA!!

AND NEVAR MIND THAT ANY BLAK BOKE OF CAPITALISM WOOD SHOW HOW CAPITALISM IN THE SAME PERIOD 1917-1991 WOULD ESILY TRIEL THE NUMBER OF DED INOSENTS!!!

THATS ALL BULL SHITS!!! AMARICA OOBAR ALLIES!!!

CAPATALISM 4EVA!!!

Thanks, Simon. We've got your back.

simon, you've got to be kidding us.

1) the *black book* is edited by courtois, yes, a former red, yes, who has distorted with great efforts the data which he is allegedly editing. i encourage you to actually read the *black book* and add up the totals.

2) then there is the issue of actually trusting these totals. on which evidence are they based? nazi agitprop? surely some of it. internal documents? some of it. us cold war hysteria, surely.

3) and just what are the precise substance of the deaths, say, in the ussr? could it be that some are innocent civilians? yes. that some are genuine criminals? yes. that some are actually fascists infiltrated into the ussr by the us during operation bloodstone and others? of course. you need to discriminate. stalin is a horrible criminal, surely. but no leftists disagree; stalin would've killed all of us because that's what stalin does. but stalinism is not communism. period.

4) and we should account, of course, for the deaths of innocents caused by capitalism in the same period. whether in wars or not, the totals are far higher. hell, 1000 kids die an hour these days from malnutrition and preventable disease. this occurs in an era of near total capitalist dominance, when there is an abundance of food and medicines and people to help. but of course these deaths are uncounted by the capitalist because they are of course entirely to blame on the impoverished themselves, and not on the fascistic capitalists who use systematic force to guarantee their own portfolios.

overall, simon, you need to stop distorting history and admit that the courtois et al. *black book* is dreadful triumphalist agitprop without much accuracy or import, all things considered.

Ah, at last, an opponent over the age of six.

1.I HAVE read the Black Book. Cover to cover. I won’t loan you my copy because I fear you will not return it. I don’t have it with me here, but I will dig it out of the extensive and luxuriously appointed Simple Simon Library and will be happy to go through all the math with you tomorrow.

2.The Black Book was exhaustively researched. It has an enormous bibliography. Strange, no reference to Nazi agitprop anywhere in there. Lots of internal documents though. Lots of numbers and names and figures.
3.The researchers went to considerable lengths to ensure that their numbers weren’t inflated by ‘unintentional’ or ‘collateral’ deaths. They hold the Communists responsible only for the murders they committed and the deaths that occurred as a result of their policies. Now, you are pulling my leg, right? Stalinism isn’t Communism? That’s rich. “Communism” in it’s theoretical form has never existed. “Stalinism” is the real-world manifestation of this political phenomena, but it calls itself “Communism” so that’s what I call it. Castro, Mao, Kim, all Stalinists. Ceaucescu, Honnicker, Tito, all Stalinists. Pol Pot, Mugabe, Stalinists. And you Leftists only recently have decided that you should distance yourselves from Stalin. You don’t have the same reticence to be seen fawning over Castro or even Kim Jr. (as the execrable Robert Scheer did until it became unfashionable).

4.The red herring of “Capitalist deaths” is easily refuted. 1,000 kids die an hour from malnutrition and preventable diseases do they? Where? Kindly produce the source of this remarkable figure. I’d love to see what countries are included in this compilation, and the breakdown of the numbers. I would be willing to wager that what we’ll find is a lot of central planning ala Socialism, but we’ll see. As for your infantile attack on Capitalism and the idea that top-hatted Capitalists withhold medicines from poor sickly (and no doubt brown) people is pure excrement. A certain Mr. Bill Gates DONATED 200 million dollars of his own money to fight AIDS in Africa just a couple of months ago. Damn those greedy slave-driving Capitalists.

Overall, antiempire, you need to accept that your side is both morally bankrupt and intellectually bereft. All things considered.

simon: "1.I HAVE read the Black Book. Cover to cover. I won’t loan you my copy because I fear you will not return it. I don’t have it with me here, but I will dig it out of the extensive and luxuriously appointed Simple Simon Library and will be happy to go through all the math with you tomorrow."

no substance here besides ad hominem smears and self-serving limbaugh-style "i am great!" speech. otherwise, an evasion of my point re: the discordance between the work of the *black book* authors and the editorial assertions of courtois.

simon: "2.The Black Book was exhaustively researched. It has an enormous bibliography. Strange, no reference to Nazi agitprop anywhere in there. Lots of internal documents though. Lots of numbers and names and figures."

you think they'll just come out and say: "oh and we based all of this on nazi propaganda!"--are ye mad? and of course there are lotsa names and numbers and figures--insofar as they are based on internal soviet (etc) documents, they are doubtless trustworthy--but those internal numbers will be quite a bit different than the rounded and exaggerrated figures fabricated for red scare purposes--100 million of courtois, 66 million of solzhenitsyn, 25 million of medvedev, or whatever. sadly, though, the bibliography aint that impressive: lotsa secondary shit--which leaves room for anything to slip in. and for a 750+ page book, i'm looking at large fonted footnotes that run 62 or so pages. comparable texts on capitalism, like blum's *killing hope*, have 60+ pages of notes in small font for 380+ pages. and blum's notes aren't based on think-tank studies and unreliable documents from the russian literary memoir tradition. look at the famous courtois intro--lotsa french anti-commie "scholars," some post-structuralist writers, khrushchev, and gulag writer shalamov. alright, these are fine writers all of them, especially shalamov's *kolyma tales*--however, this is not data that proves anything.

simon: "3.The researchers went to considerable lengths to ensure that their numbers weren’t inflated by ‘unintentional’ or ‘collateral’ deaths. They hold the Communists responsible only for the murders they committed and the deaths that occurred as a result of their policies. Now, you are pulling my leg, right?"

you are obviously pulling mine. take for instance the discussion of siad barre of somalia (691)--complete bullshit, since barre was indeed a soviet client for several years, but then became a us client, during which time his worst crimes were committed--and the reason for the somali uprising against the us in 1993. come on man! you can't possibly think that the "evil international evil communist evil conspiracy" is responsible for everything claimed in this unprecendented piece of trash book!

simon: "Stalinism isn’t Communism? That’s rich. “Communism” in it’s theoretical form has never existed. “Stalinism” is the real-world manifestation of this political phenomena, but it calls itself “Communism” so that’s what I call it. Castro, Mao, Kim, all Stalinists. Ceaucescu, Honnicker, Tito, all Stalinists. Pol Pot, Mugabe, Stalinists. And you Leftists only recently have decided that you should distance yourselves from Stalin. You don’t have the same reticence to be seen fawning over Castro or even Kim Jr. (as the execrable Robert Scheer did until it became unfashionable)."

right. stalinism is not communism. plenty of reds havent liked stalin, even before orwell, himself a red, denounced stalinism. there's a long tradition of communism which has nothing to do with stalin. so, you need to actually read some of the left's material; perhaps it will draw you out of this cartoonish cold war ideology of yours--and then your arguments won't be exposed so easily as straw men distortions. and just becuase you think in terms of der fuhrer prinzip, it is not the case that communists do i.e., we don't identify with castro, kim, et alia, because some are stalinists, some aren't, but theyre hardly models for the future and for a movement based on democratic socialism. you need to stop distorting what communists and other ;eftists say about their own positions. it just makes you look ignorant.

simon: "4.The red herring of “Capitalist deaths” is easily refuted. 1,000 kids die an hour from malnutrition and preventable diseases do they? Where? Kindly produce the source of this remarkable figure. I’d love to see what countries are included in this compilation, and the breakdown of the numbers. I would be willing to wager that what we’ll find is a lot of central planning ala Socialism, but we’ll see. As for your infantile attack on Capitalism and the idea that top-hatted Capitalists withhold medicines from poor sickly (and no doubt brown) people is pure excrement. A certain Mr. Bill Gates DONATED 200 million dollars of his own money to fight AIDS in Africa just a couple of months ago. Damn those greedy slave-driving Capitalists."

unicef provides the numbers on 1000 kids per hour; this is an old story. if you havent heard it, then you're obviously out of the loop, or just lying. you'll have to account for the very well known data that neoliberal structural adjustment accounts for a rise in poverty, premature deaths, lack of food, and the rest in nations where staist social services once existed. ie socialism clearly supported those populations better than capitalism does now. this is a pattern that exists acorss the globe--don't bother asking "where?" like a disingenuous fop. so, you need to stop lying, once again.

and yes, gates just might "donate" $200M to fight aids, but this is 1) a drop in the bucket of his wealth (therefore not generous, technically) and b) doesn't offset the net flow of wealth from the poor to the rich. all the "charity" in the world *withstanding*, and the net flow of wealth is to the rich.

and YES, the wealthy do withhold medicines. what do you think the patent issues vis-a-vis aids meds has been all about? cappies want to maintain profits by disrupting free market principles with their patent extensions. never mind the biogenocide.

and the 1000 kids per hour is a separate question from the overall totals of capitalist deaths from poverty (a structural feature of capitalism leading to all sorts of death and disability) and war. imperialist war does kill people, no?

so, before you preemptively accuse people of being morally and intellectually bankrupt, perhaps you should take a look at the fascist shit you've been shoveling. it just simply does not hold up to the historical record, and whereas communism has much for which to answer, capitalism has been far worse.

1. You asserted that I should read the Black Book. I informed you that I have. There is no ad hominem or manamanah doo doo da doo doo manamanah doo doo doo doo in there at all. Merely a question, and an answer.

2. It really wouldn’t matter if the Black Book’s bibliography was notarized as authentic by Jesus Christ himself, you’d still find a reason to discredit it. This is because you are uncomfortable with the findings therein. I am at a disadvantage in this little argument as I don’t have ready access to my book, but tell me, which figures are you discounting? Which figures are you denying? Do you think the Nazis killed all those Polish officers at Katyn? Do you think the Volga Germans decided to voluntarily relocate to Siberia and Kazakhstan? Do you think that Solzhenitsyn decided to intern himself in a gulag? Or that the purges of the late 1930’s and again in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s were just for show? Who was it that shot the Pope again? Who was it that made Raoul Wallenberg disappear? What about the subject that we were discussing when you came in – the Ukrainian famine of 1932-3? How about the oh-so-charming-but-don’t-call-us-Stalists Khmer Rouge? Or Mr. Mao and his wacky little cultural revolution and ‘great leap forward’? Your fellow travelers are up to their eyeballs in blood – the overwhelming majority of which is drawn from the veins of the innocent.

3. I love watching a Leftist make picayune distinctions. The fact is that the Stalinists are the Communists who have exercised power. Trotskyites and other fringe movements have always been outmaneuvered and eradicated by the Stalinists – perhaps because they aren’t as ruthless as the Stalinists. Your dreams of ‘the future of the movement’ are just that – dreams. And assuming you are as honest and And are you saying here and now that you disavow Castro and condemn his regime? How about Kim Jong Il? Communism in theory may sound good to some, but in practice it is a slaughterhouse.

4. Your failure to provide me with documentation (concerning 1,000 kids dying per hour) is not an indication of my being disingenuous. It is an indication of your reliance on hearsay and propaganda. Furthermore your thesis falls flat on its face when presented with real-life examples. Just how many people have starved in South Korea? And how many millions have starved in the North of that country? How many people have starved in the countries of the former Warsaw Pact now that they have converted to a Western, Democratic and Capitalistic model?

5. The arrogance of the Left is boundless. So Bill Gates isn't REALLY being generous because he ONLY gave 200 million dollars to fight the spread of AIDS in Africa. Tell me, son, how much have you contributed? Bill Gates GAVE 200 MILLION DOLLARS (finger to side of mouth like Dr. Evil). His is an extraordinary example of philanthropy, but hardly the only one. Between corporate donations and the donations of foundations created by American corporations the US dwarfs any other country in service to their fellow man. It is the United States which creates all the vaccines and therapies which alleviate human suffering. It is the United States which provides food, medical assistance, engineering expertise and agricultural know how to dozens of countries around the world. The Communist world contributes exactly bumpkis.

6. Your childish assertion that money flows from poor to rich is idiotic. The fact remains that life in the United States is better now than it has ever been, even for those on the lowest rung of social status. The fact remains that an average person of average intelligence can get an amazing education with the support of the United States government merely by asking for it. The fact remains that this average person can then go on to make a handsome living in this country – and retire a millionaire merely by contributing prudently to a retirement account. Your bromides of class war are the howlings of the rabble that either cannot –by lack of enterprise, or will not – by lack of spine.

7. Communism is an abomination. Capitalism is a Godsend.

simon: "1. You asserted that I should read the Black Book. I informed you that I have. There is no ad hominem or manamanah doo doo da doo doo manamanah doo doo doo doo in there at all. Merely a question, and an answer."

you informed me, never mind the logical fallacies and chiuldish insults contained therein.

simon "2. It really wouldn’t matter if the Black Book’s bibliography was notarized as authentic by Jesus Christ himself, you’d still find a reason to discredit it. This is because you are uncomfortable with the findings therein. I am at a disadvantage in this little argument as I don’t have ready access to my book, but tell me, which figures are you discounting? Which figures are you denying? Do you think the Nazis killed all those Polish officers at Katyn? Do you think the Volga Germans decided to voluntarily relocate to Siberia and Kazakhstan? Do you think that Solzhenitsyn decided to intern himself in a gulag? Or that the purges of the late 1930’s and again in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s were just for show? Who was it that shot the Pope again? Who was it that made Raoul Wallenberg disappear? What about the subject that we were discussing when you came in – the Ukrainian famine of 1932-3? How about the oh-so-charming-but-don’t-call-us-Stalists Khmer Rouge? Or Mr. Mao and his wacky little cultural revolution and ‘great leap forward’? Your fellow travelers are up to their eyeballs in blood – the overwhelming majority of which is drawn from the veins of the innocent."

yes, i'd find a reason to discredit it so long asthere were reasons--and there are. i am sorry, but courtois citing a pack of french neocon thinktank reports just doesn't cut it. as i said, if the crimes in question are evidenced by the internal documents, then of course i can only agree that they are indeed actual crimes. if they come out of red scare agitprop--whether in mccarthyoid texts or in euro-anti-communism, then they are suspect. ditto for the nazi accusations vis-a-vis the ussr.

and yes, it appears as though the stalinists massacred a bunch of polish officers, near fascists themselves, which is besides the point. why is it that the nazi crimes against the poles aren't thus generalized as "crimes of capitalism," which is of course what they are by this logic. using double standards doesn't help much. re the volga germans, solzhenitsyn himself, and other victims of the gulag--agreed. nasty shit. but the fundamental flaw of your position and of the *black book* is to suggest that these are the crimes of an economic system--communism--and not of a governmental authoritarianism: stalinist dictatorship. the papal assassination is op gladio/cia, so you're in the dark there. and the ukranian famine? hmm...food scarcity perhaps? diverting food to the urban areas? someone starves in the ussr here. and why is that, i wonder? perhaps because the stalinists decide to sell wheat on the world market--for a profit? obviously this is no communist policy--sacrificing lives of people for profits. such is the logic of capitalism--exchange value over use value, etc. the ukrainian famine, whatever the numbers (and here is one of the widely distorted nazi fabrications), and they were surely large numbers, it is the result of capitalist policy.

along those lines, i don't feel the need to defend mao or pol pot. sure, the us itself, along with other fascists, managedto turn china into a basket case early on. and us carpet bombing in cambodia didnt provide a good basis for any society. the khmer rouge doesn't seem to be communist just because they call themselves such; did you really believe that any of the "people's democracies" were really democracies? of course not. why believe them when they call themselves "socialist" or communist"? are you that gullible?

simon: "3. I love watching a Leftist make picayune distinctions. The fact is that the Stalinists are the Communists who have exercised power. Trotskyites and other fringe movements have always been outmaneuvered and eradicated by the Stalinists – perhaps because they aren’t as ruthless as the Stalinists. Your dreams of ‘the future of the movement’ are just that – dreams. And assuming you are as honest and And are you saying here and now that you disavow Castro and condemn his regime? How about Kim Jong Il? Communism in theory may sound good to some, but in practice it is a slaughterhouse."

i said none of that. all i said is that stalinism is not communism. period. and yes, i am no fascist committed to der fuhrer; fuck the maximum leader bullshit. we can defend any of these abhorrent governments, however, by noting that their economic systems have produced benefits. no capitalist growth, but protections from the neoliberal washington consensus. that such protection also is an isolation becomes painfully apparent in the current crisis in north korea--which seems to justify the old marxist notion that communism can't exist on the national level and in wartime--stalinism recommends, as you know, a militarized state, and "socialism in one country." and because the us has destroyed and compromised every single alleged communist country since the beginning of their moves leftward, we will never know how they may have turned out. all we know is that the us bombs the living fuck out of any place that even looks red.

simon: "4. Your failure to provide me with documentation (concerning 1,000 kids dying per hour) is not an indication of my being disingenuous. It is an indication of your reliance on hearsay and propaganda. Furthermore your thesis falls flat on its face when presented with real-life examples. Just how many people have starved in South Korea? And how many millions have starved in the North of that country? How many people have starved in the countries of the former Warsaw Pact now that they have converted to a Western, Democratic and Capitalistic model?"

jesus friggin christ. you mean to tell me that you haven't read the unicef reports about the 100 deaths/hour? i don't even remember where to find it now, considering that it is so widespread. are you really only reading fox news? indeed, massive state intervention coupled with integration into the us empire has saved south korea some of the more disastrous effects--though south korea was hit hard by the 97 crisis--which you ignorant at your argument's peril. and the eastern bloc countries are decidedly worse off now than they were before. you can't seriously be in denial of this.

simon: "5. The arrogance of the Left is boundless. So Bill Gates isn't REALLY being generous because he ONLY gave 200 million dollars to fight the spread of AIDS in Africa. Tell me, son, how much have you contributed? Bill Gates GAVE 200 MILLION DOLLARS (finger to side of mouth like Dr. Evil). His is an extraordinary example of philanthropy, but hardly the only one. Between corporate donations and the donations of foundations created by American corporations the US dwarfs any other country in service to their fellow man. It is the United States which creates all the vaccines and therapies which alleviate human suffering. It is the United States which provides food, medical assistance, engineering expertise and agricultural know how to dozens of countries around the world. The Communist world contributes exactly bumpkis."

of course he's not generous. how can it be generous to give away such a small amount of such a vast fortune? gates could give away $20B and it still isn't generous--becuase he doesn't need any of that to survive. don't you know what generous means? it is hardly arrogant to point out that generous is parting with something that will effect you personally. and my contributions to the aids crisis are proprotionally higher than gates, considering my income and assets--even so, a red herring--and you should know as much, unless you really are uneducated.

your other argument, about us corporate charity, is not compelling; just what do you think the purpose of such "charity" is? perhaps producing halos for pr purposes? perhaps advance marketing in regions they wish to colonize? perhaps lies? perhaps tax havens? perhaps ways to prop up ailing market sectors? and USAID? don't make me laugh. half of its $25B is military aid to neo-fascist and monarchial govts. the "food aid" is a way to transfer us taxdollars to us agricultural megacorporations--and a way to wipe out locally produced foods wherever and thereby subordinate foreign markets to us firms. food aid is political control--don't you know this yet? and the communist world? who is left of the alleged communist world? i don't identify any nation as "communist," though you might mean north korea--under siege and ailing from isolation and military paranoia based on the us genocide there in the 1950s. cuba? isolated as she is, cuba manages to contribute enough to be regarded as the international "humanitarian superpower" in the third world--for overcoming the opposition of the empire enough to export the largest amount of medical aid etc proportionally speaking in the world. you should a) not dismiss the conditions, b) the contributions, and c) the falsity of your original formulation "communist world."

simon "6. Your childish assertion that money flows from poor to rich is idiotic. The fact remains that life in the United States is better now than it has ever been, even for those on the lowest rung of social status. The fact remains that an average person of average intelligence can get an amazing education with the support of the United States government merely by asking for it. The fact remains that this average person can then go on to make a handsome living in this country – and retire a millionaire merely by contributing prudently to a retirement account. Your bromides of class war are the howlings of the rabble that either cannot –by lack of enterprise, or will not – by lack of spine."

a slight misunderstanding on your part? or a red herring? i was talking about how capitalism as a world system works, with wealth unequivocally flowing from poor to rich, both between nations and within them. that includes the us. and if you believe that life in the us is better now than its ever been, i'm not even sure why i bother--since that assertion is patently false. real income in the us has declined in double digit figures since the nixon shocks--and it's better than it's ever been? in which world do you live? and the horatio alger "you can get rich if you work hard" ius moronic. yes, an individual can do so much with luck and inheritance and generally good class background--but can anyone do this? obviously not just anyone. lowest ten percent of income brackets provide how many of the top ten percent? is it .01%? or lower now? the class mobility thesis is just silly--and of course a contradiction for your argument--for in order to have class mobility, you must first have class hierarchy. and obviously not everyone can become a millionaire in the united states--the system requires a vast amount of impovershied folk--here and abroad--to make one bill gates. and you could avoid the argumentum ad hominem. it just detracts.

simon: "7. Communism is an abomination. Capitalism is a Godsend."

hahahaha yes, it is an abomination to wealthy capitalists, who will see everything that they've worked so hard to steal washed away in a democratic redistribution. and--gasp--how dare the "rabble" rise up and kill their betters! of course, the crimes of capitalist nations were omitted from all your posts--except for the crimes you attribute to communism but were really state capitalist policies of stalinists. you would do well to recall slavery, the native american genocide, the systematic starvations and murders in european colonies--think victorian india, with its millions starved--and recent fascist horrors from the japanese in nanking to the us carpet bombing the vietnamese. this is all a godsend? why? because you're rich and white and they're brown and dead? and you said i was morally bankrupt?

Your post is too much for my conservative little mind to take in. Kindly submit it to Fox News so that they can rewrite it, thus allowing simpletons like me to understand it.

Check this pics out from the March 30th march. Guerrilla theatre in action!! http://www.phatnetwork.net/curtains/waroniraq

How many deaths do you think communism is responsible for?

And what's the magic number for declaring it a failure?

...communism has never been practices in its "true" form.

"After the Revolution, and we're in power, WE'LL do it right!"

I keep asking, but never get any answers...

How will the revolution be brought about? Somebody has to have a plan. Sitting around drinking coffee and waving sighs sure isn't gonna do it.

It's okay; you can tell me. I won't let the cat out of the bag.

What I find fascinating in Anti Empire's posts is a peculiar disconnect from accountability.

The poster desires to discredit the figure of 100 million innocents killed by Communism worldwide since 1918. But he does not deny the deaths, he merely pushes them off on other causes than Communism. All the dead in Russia? Stalinists. All the dead in China? Fascists. He refuses to accept the label Communist for any atrocity, even if those who perpetrated these atrocities (and continue to do so) consider themselves to be Communists.

One wonders if he could enumerate the great acheivements of Communism. I suspect it would be very difficult to do, given that none of our Communist adversaries are actually Communists.

He is also obviously under the most common malady of the Left - a religious orthodoxy to accepted 'facts' without substantiation. He has brought up the figure of 1,000 children dying of malnutrition every day in Capitalist countries. I suggest that I think this figure to be absolute bs, and even if it was true I would like to see the breakdown of where the children are dying.

He holds to the naive belief that the Ukrainian famine was the result of either nature or Capitalist market forces. This is really remarkable. The Ukraine is perhaps the most fertile land on Earth. If market forces caused grains to be so valuable for export, then Ukrainian farmers would be among the richest and fattest people in the world. Instead they were INTENTIONALLY starved by their millions. This is because in the name of the glorious Revolution and in the interest of the State, ALL their grain and livestock were confiscated - without payment. They were left by the ignorant animal followers of Marx without even enough grain to sow the following year's crop. This is not a Capitalist market force, this is CLASSIC Communist thuggery. Of course, AntiEmpire refers to these people as "Stalinists".

Finally, I find it interesting that AntiEmpire is so quick to disavow the heros of Leftist past (Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Kim Il Song) yet still revels in hero worship for Totalitarians who breathe yet - Like Castro. To make a comparison between the aid provided by the United States ( and the various private charities therein ) and Cuba - and to count Cuba the winner shows a Herculean ability to dispense with reality.
Furthermore, when Castro imprisons 75 WRITERS to jail for as much as 28 years for advocating democracy we hear not a peep from our precious 'peace' advocates. Yet let the United States free 24 million people from under the heel of a totalitarian despot, and watch the fur fly!

"I find it interesting that AntiEmpire is so quick to disavow the heros of Leftist past (Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Kim Il Song)..."

Yeah, Hitler was an angel.

How in the world is Hitler relevant to the conversation?

The discussion is about Communism and it's history of crimes. A history that is not seriously contested, yet none are called to account for it - none are called to answer the hangman for their crimes.

Fascism is an abomination. The perpetrators of Fascism have been hounded and imprisoned and executed. Even the smaller fish are still pursued to this day by zealous Nazi hunters. The same cannot be said about Communism.

When was the last time anyone gave a fawning interview to a Nazi? When was the last time that you saw a Hermann Goering t-shirt? Yet Che's image is omnipresent among the 'progressives', and Castro is a misunderstood put-upon saint, and pop-culture pictures of Mao adorn homes in Hollywood. Andy Warhol didn't do a Goebbells print.

So, your reference to Hitler means what, exactly?

You might as well have said "Yeah, Edward I was an angel".

"When was the last time that you saw a Hermann Goering t-shirt?"
I'm sure there's one in your dresser right now, you fascist.

Do you have ANYTHING to say besides snide little insults?

Your posts are remarkably, almost studiously, devoid of content. Your only rejoinder to anyone who points this out is to label them a fascist.

If a cop pulls you over I'll bet the first word that pops in your mouth is fascist.

"Your only rejoinder to anyone who points this out is to label them a fascist. If a cop pulls you over I'll bet the first word that pops in your mouth is fascist."

All of this from one post. Are you always this prone to hysterics?

I assure you, my little albatross, that I am quite calm. I am just waiting for an adult to show up with something relevant to say.

In the meantime I must spar with spotty-faced adolescents who learned to bleat 'fascist' in their cribs.

"In the meantime I must spar with spotty-faced adolescents who learned to bleat 'fascist' in their cribs."

All of this from one post. Why are you being so defensive? Do you have skeletons in your closet?

Yawn, yawn, and yet again... yawn.

Yeah, well, Ghengis Khan was no angel either!

Uh, uh, Lord Kitchener was no angel!

Uh, uh, Napoleon was no angel!

Begone, foolish child. Either take a name and stop hiding behind the identity of your betters or depart.

What's the matter? Don't you like it when someone calls you out? Do you ALWAYS resort to calling these "someones" children?

"calls me out" refers to having exposed some sort of logical fallacy.

I challenge you to find one.

""calls me out" refers to having exposed some sort of logical fallacy. I challenge you to find one."

"Begone, foolish child."
Ad hominem (abusive). Gee, I didn't have to search very long, did I?

One wonders if you understand any other latin phrases?

Sic Semper Tyrannus?

De Oppresso Liber?

And I asked you to find a factual fallacy. To call someone who behaves foolishly childish a foolish child is not a fallacy.

Again, do you have anything to contribute to the discussion of the crimes of Communism or are you just here to practice saying 'fascist' every chance you get?

"To call someone who behaves foolishly childish a foolish child is not a fallacy."

The only one behaving foolishly here is you. Hence, your fallacy.

"...are you just here to practice saying 'fascist' every chance you get?"

Again, this from just one post. Are you just here to practice being hysterical?

The adults were talking about Communism, junior. Now run along and make sure you're back by supper time. You've got a lot of studying to do.

If only adults are allowed, then why are YOU here?

is he poser we've all grown to hate. If those of you on the right witness ANYTHING I write that wreaks of leftism, rest assured it is not me.

I did not post the above comment. The rest are mine.

U KNOW WHAT I THINK FUCK U A FUCK THE WORLD BITCH FUCK THE PIGS N FUCK U WHO EVER READS THIS SHIT

your a nigger bitch that is so filthy that you suck nasty black dick when you could suck my white male high class dick mother sucker

Its Really Sad That Some People Have Nothing Better Todo Then Blam This And Blam That, Call This Shit Or That Shit Not Even Bothering To READ It Now If They Read It I Supose They Have The Right To Confront The Issue But Simply Calling It "Fucking Stupid" Is Just... Not To Be Mean To Anyone With A Trailer But Trailer Trash Talk, I Mean Please Atleast Have Fourty-Five Words That Dont Start With "F"

Just think, Would you rather have terrorists running free in our country? Would you rather have our women treated as slaves and animals and our men afraid to even speak without people like Osama Bin Ladin's permission? Bush did not call for war, the U.S. people did!!! Or do you forget how we came to be a free nation in the first place? We had to fight for our freedom from Britain and we fought for it again when the twin towers fell. But I suppose you dont care that millions of our fellow americans lost their lives on that day!!! Do you not care about all the lives that were ended or shattered on September 11? Our country, not our president went to war, and our soldiers chose to go, knowing the risks that were involved. Those brave men and women gave up their lives to keep our country free and safe for our children and for our childrens children. But I suppose you would rather have our children live in constant fear and dread. Just think, our country would not exist right now if WE had not gone to war.

Thanks for having a sense of humor, S.G. BTW , only 2800 people died on 9/11, not millions. And the Americans I know still live in constant fear and 2 years later the situation is worse.

Countries or regions the US has IMPERIALISED:

Puerto Rico
Phillipines
Hawaii
Irak
and by default due to being the big dog in the Global economy and having Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD).....THE WHOLE EFFING WORLD!!!

Man you are the epitomy of "good" OL' USA.... you fucking pilgrim

No one has died as a direct result of communism. 10 million people died when Stalin righted the wrong that Lenin left for him, by taking the land back from the gentries. He gave them the option of continuing to farm the land or to live in siberia in shame that they didn't want to provide for the workers who were busting their backs to build weapons to fight the nazis. It just so happens that Siberia is inhabitable. Look like greed killed those people.

In China, Mao led the cultural revolution that failed, not because it was communist, but because famine and because there was military pressure from capitalist, right wing governments. In that particular famine, 50 million people died in China under communism. What isn't told in history books is that the SAME famine killed 100 million in India under capitalism.

So, the real pic should be, "Capitalism has only killed 1.5 billion people. Lets continue with Capitalism. Right? Right!"

Who cares how many people died "under" communism. It don't work, never has, never will. The main reason is people in goverment don't always think about the people. Mainly when ever the goverment is run by a small group of people, like comunism or monarchy, and we all know how that turned out. If you want the goverment to make all the decisions for you and say you are to stupid to make decisions then go right along in defending it.

Bush sucks

you people, who says communism is obsolete and dangerous, say this because your charakter is incompatibel with the idea of it. thats all to say.

why dont ask russian people by yourself?
I questioned many and all say the same. They hope...
*that peoples charakter evolve
*people became consciuos
*People recognize their possibilities

But sorry, for more as the half of posters in this forum, my words are indiscussable wrong; the reason are Prejudice formed by propaganda and your parents and teachers. This is the Incompability of your minds disabling you to live a social life.

Sorry but it is a must *Say*!