error

error

error

error

error

error

error

error

error

error

error

error

error

error

error

error

Citation is always important.

It's also important for back-up ability given that censorship is on the rise.

All of you who think this war is just, take a good look at these pictures and imagine if one of your family members was hurt like this or killed. Imagine the lifelong psychological effects and the suffering these poor and innocent Iraqis will have to endure. I pray that their is a miracle and this war will be stopped immediately. Pure injustice is happenning to everyone right now, including our young men and woman of the armed forces who are their risking their lives in an illegal war.

Hope USA, UK face the same in near future for all this with innocent people

This is horrible. I wish they'd show these pictures on CNN.
If these pictures don't make you mad as hell, you're dead inside.

These photos were e-mailed from Baghdad by members of the Iraq Peace Team, which is an initiative by the highly reputable Voices in the Wilderness. The photos are also available on the IPT website at http://www.iraqpeaceteam.org/pages/al_kindi_hospital.html. Contact info for IPT is provided on the website. See also http://www.vitw.org and http://www.electroniciraq.net.

Since these pictures are likley true we all feel sorry for the children. Perhaps Saddam should have given up his VX Gas and Anthrax so no war would have come to Iraq. Saddam order to remain a power mad terrorist dictator has brought a war unto his people but he cares not all. What he wants are his fifty billion dollars worth of Palaces while the average Iraqi lives on $1.50 per week. If you want pictures see the Kurdish photos of the mass murderers work with VX he killed several hundred thousand. He will do so again if not stoped so pull your little slow thinking heads out of your collective asses and realize that war is hell. Hitler was not removed without millions dying still he had to go. SO DOES SADDAM YOU IDIOTS.

Saddam, hitler, and so on. You can name all the distators in the world, you can say that there has been more victims somewhere else, you can say that it was worse at another time, but you can't denie that dictatorship or not, it is not saddam on this bed, it is not the opressor on these beds, it is the innocent ones. PEOPLE are dying in ways that no one should. And before calling this propaganda, or Idiots the people that oput this up let us think of one thing "justice". Is justice taking out a dictator? sure why not. Is it just to be unjust against the unjust , or do we remain unjust overall and become hypocrits? Propaganda my %ss, reality you fool! if anyone thinks that WAR is beneficial, then let us begin by YOU.

For the ignorants genocide supporters and as George Orwell said "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of attrocities commited by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them".

Here is an extract from a talk by Noam Chomsky "...During these close to 200 years, we, the United States expelled or mostly exterminated the indigenous population, that’s many millions of people, conquered half of Mexico, carried out depredations all over the region, Caribbean and Central America, sometimes beyond, conquered Hawaii and the Philippines, killing several 100,000 Filipinos in the process. Since the Second World War, it has extended its reach around the world in ways I don’t have to describe. But it was always killing someone else, the fighting was somewhere else, it was others who were getting slaughtered. Not here. Not the national territory..."

I see, it's alright with you that madmen like Saddam kill the Iraqi people by the millions. Or, you would have me believe that it is unjust to punish the unjust with justiceTHAT IS REALLY INJUSTICE JUSTICE .

What a batch of bullshit dubble leftyspeak.

You assholes protested the war against the Talaban and the Eq Quida all the time blaming the US for the WTC attack. Where was your empathy for the AMERICAM INNOCENT CHILDREN MURDERED by the likes and friends of the friggin mad man we are at war with.

Will you cry for the American babys murdered with Saddams VX and Antheax. Fuck no, youre all assholes.

Today the press reports from reporters ON THE SCENE
The Iraqi secret enforcement corps under the command of Uday Hussain are forcing Shea women and children unto the battlefield to protedt themselves from return fire from USMC units thay are shooting at.

PROTEST THAT.

Same reporter from the actual SCENE verified with his eyes. The Iraqi criminal force is attacking US troops from a HOSIPTAL WITH CIVILIANS INSIDE.

PROTEST THAT

SAME SCENE US Marines drove the CRIMINALS out after rescuing the patients and doctors at the hospital. The Iraqi CRIMINALS LEFT BEHIND BRAND NEW CHEMICAL SUITS AND MASKS. This means the criminals are preparing to use thes terror weapons against US forces. No otherr reason for them to have their own protective gear. Get it, jerks, these monsters are now preparing to use their WMD'S.

PROTEST THAT

Posting your revisionist history has nothing to do with today. The madman will kill you and piss on your face. Comparing Bush to Saddam is assinine Bush never murdered 1 million Americans

This is war.

For the ignorants genocide supporters and as George Orwell said "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of attrocities commited by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them".

This is a very, very true statement. Sadly the 'left'is EVERY BIT as nationalistic as the 'right' is on this board. Some poor women wrote on antoher thread that Saddam and the Batth Party should also be condemned for the execution of the American POWs. She wanted blame spread around. She was swore at, belittled.

The Peace Party should be taking the lead in condemning ALL war crimes and should be calling both for Saddam to disarm and for Bush to give peace a chance.

I think that we missed a golden opportunity to be seen as true lovers of peace by not starting all marches at the Iraqi Embassy and ending them at the US embassy. Calling for peace from both sides.

Instead the movement has lost some crediablity by being seen as being - at best - apoligists for Saddam and his ilk and -at worse - hyjacked by his party or by Anti-american-at-any-cost-or-reason.

...right side and a wrong side.

The right side is Pro-Peace and Pro-Life.

The other side is Pro-War and Pro-Death.

Now choose your side.

Sadly, the people who are so blinded by government propaganda are my fellow Americans. I do not believe Iraq has any WMD, but would not blame them if they had. They have been under the threat of the 2nd most heavily armed nation on earth -- Israel. Israel has already inflicted an unprovoked attack on Iraq, as well as all of her other neighboring countries.
Iraq has never threatened the US and is no threat to her neighbors. Otherwise the other Mideast countries would not be so strongly opposed to this unjust, totally unwarrented, bloody and ruthless war. It sickens me.
I am praying for our young American troops and also for the Iraqi people.

You must be greatful that Saddam Hussein has
placed these innocent children in harm's way, so that
you can now whore their suffering for the benefit of
your anti-American propaganda. Don't think that I'm
not able to look deep enough to see it.

I checked your iraqpeaceteam.org site, and found it to
be quite an impressive propaganda tool. Out of all of
the atrocities that it cites, and I think we can all agree
that any innocent victim is an atrocity, not one
reference is made to the years of suffering that
Saddam, himself, has inflicted on the Iraqi people.
Every piece of literature on this site is directed toward
the horrible United States. I wonder why that is?

I noticed the "Call to Action" letter that is published on
the site as well. I'm curious to know why it is that the
letter, in all of it's calls for peace, makes not a single
reference to Saddam Hussein's ability to avoid all of
this. Why, in addition to it's plea to the U.S., does this
letter not call on Saddam to comply with the 15-0 will
of the international community as a guaranteed way to
stop this war?

No one in this world is going to argue when you say
that these injuries and deaths are tragic, least of all
myself. But stop taking their suffering, whether directly
or indirectly caused by the megalomania of Saddam
Hussein, and portraying it as reckless endangerment
by the United States.

One of the great tools of the Disinformation artist is to create a false Dichotomy.

dichotomy, noun, pl. -mies. .
3. (Logic.) classification by division, or by successive subdivision, into two mutually exclusive groups or sections.
Ex. the dichotomy in the universe of the living and the nonliving.

Notice the definition: "...two mutually exclusive groups or sections..."

By creating the appearance that two things not actually mutually exclusive are mutually exclusive you create a False Dichotomy. In other words a LIE.

The attempts by the Pro-War side have tried to focus on the following:

If you are for peace you are for Saddam. False Dichotomy. The two are not mutually exclusive. You can be opposed to the evil perpetrated by Saddam without being in favor of this war and all the loss of innocent life it entails.

Another lie has been that "the Iraqi people will greet us as glorious liberators" - yeah right.
That is why their is, and will continue to be, Guerilla Resistance to U.S. Forces. Looked at from the Iraqi point of view they are defending their homes against an invading Army. We would do the same thing under similar circumstances. It is not because they love Saddam but because the U.S. has become a Conquering Army in THEIR country.

The above posing by Diogenes is an example of a False Dichotomy. Thank you for your attendance.

Diogenes

"Confuse, divert, disparage."

Look familiar?

These animals have no soul.
They rationalize the pain and horror and blame the ones
trying to stop it.
They are the wastelands of human ignorance and complicity.

This is the reason.
This is my child. They all are.

Saddam has no regard for the Iraqi people. This is likely photos of people who were killed or injured by the Iraqi Republican Guard who would then use this propaghanda to appeal to Saddam appeasers, a tactic which by all evidence (noting those who have posted here) is clearly working.

You ass. Twist the horror to your taste.
Bush apeaser and coward.

I do not, and have never in any of my posts, attempt to
rationalize or even justify these injuries and deaths.

Similarly, I have never tried to blame those who are trying to stop it.

I do however, find curious what seems to be your
refusal to admit or accept the fact that when you whittle
away all of the propaganda and partisan bickering, the
root cause of all of this is Saddam Hussein.

We put him in power.
Now the people suffer while you cheerlead and lie.
The carnage is the predictable result of greed and
the CIA.

I agree, lane. First of all, I have no reason to believe these photos were taken in Iraq during the past few days. And if by chance they were, I have no reason to believe they were caused by US forces. It's clear that Saddam Hussein knows his days are numbered against a force he cannot defeat, and he will diliberately kill or injure his own people in an attempt to conjure up world sympathy. And then there are those people who will willingly accept these photos without question because truth is not what they aspire to know.

American aggression will one day stop.

Right now though, Americans are betrayed by their small town, uneducated, farm mentality.

When the country eventually modernizes, new progressive attitudes will eventually emerge.

Until then, Americans will continue to consider "bubble sheets" and multiple choice as examples of fine education.

Saddam Hussein, George H W Bush and Ronald Reagan will burn in hell for their roles in the murders of thousands of innocent Iraqis during the 80s.

...that drive the trolls nuts is photos that show how evil this war really is.

That is why they have to disparage the photos of the civilian casualties to U.S. Aggression.

Notice that they can produce nothing, other than inhuman commentary, which PROVES anything.

They are just VILE BEASTS IN HUMAN FORM.

That you are the biggest liar of them all. Your delusions would be funny if they weren't so serious.

What do those heart-wrenching pictures above prove? You can't document one side without the other.

Where are the photos of dead Kurds? Where are the pictures of all Saddam's victims that you don't give a crap about? You pay lip-service to "victims", but only if they are YOUR "victims."

You two-sentance diatribes are an intellectually bankrupt attempt to salvage a point of view no one shares.

But carry on, please!

...making personal attacks it shows that you have no FACTS to back up your position. So, insult me all you want it proves you to be an empty Poster to anyone with any brains.

Diogenes, you’re an easy target and a hypocrite. You are the one that is quick to attack others because they don't agree with your position. I'm not sure what your real agenda is, but I suspected it's to see your quotes on the board.

>That is why they have to disparage the photos of the civilian casualties to U.S. Aggression. Notice that they can produce nothing, other than inhuman commentary, which PROVES anything.

I have no documented evidence that these photos were taken in Iraq in the last few days. Neither do you.

I have no documented evidence that these photos were a result of US military action. Neither do you.

So why are you all so anxious to believe that these are Iraqis who were recently injured by US military action without documented evidence to back up your claim? If someone had posted these photos and claimed they showed what lengths Saddam's Republican Guard were willing to go in order to create propaghanda, would you have so easily embraced them having no more evidence than you do now (as you embrace these photos as being casulaties of US aggression)?

You are very willing to accept as truth accusations and photos that uphold your cause without documented evidence and denounce those who question your evidence, and on the other hand are quick to demand others document their claims in a way you don't expect those who agree with you to do.

Don't expect to be taken seriously.

like i've said over and over again.

Americans are fucking dumb.

Do those of you on the Left even LOOK at what others write on here, or do you just sit there waiting for another post to come along so you can pounce on it with empty accusations, paranoid speculation, and immature name calling?

"do you just sit there waiting for another post to come along so you can pounce on it"

You nailed it!!

It's called having "The Last Word", and in these people's fragile egg-shell minds, they believe that having "The Last Word" in a conversation means you win. A very immature notion.

For the best example of this child-like foolishness, go to SF-IMC and look up "nessie".

My point has always been that if you make a point, your point is based enough in the truth that you shouldn't have to defend it, that anyone who tries to attack it just comes away looking foolish for even trying, Just note that any comments made by leftists/anarchists on this site which are questioned, they immediately rush to the defense of their position. That tells me right off the bat that the position they originally stated was built on a shakey foundation to begin with, otherwise they wouldn't have to continually defend it.

Yeah we read the posts.
You arrogant soulless bastards who reason and spew
the same old shit are indefensible in your heartless
self-serving promotion of this slaughter. May you be my
cellmate in hell.

God will only allow you one cellmate in hell and it will be Saddam!

Sadly, these war-loving racist fools have their heads stuck so far up Bush's ass and lapping up the shit he keeps pumping in their heads that they can't open their eyes wide enough to go search for the truth.

Instead of making such idiotic comments to us intelligent “lefties", why don't you go read up on the history of the world or even travel the world and learn about other cultures and people. Go educate yourselves instead of sitting in front of your TV's and getting off on all this disgusting one-sided propaganda battle. This is not reality TV! Don't stay so close-minded. Also, please don't teach your children to discriminate and be racist just because your parents were. Stop the vicious cycle! I have hope for you. It's never too late to educate yourselves and find peace within yourselves so that you may spread it to the rest.

"To announce that there must be no
criticism of the President or
that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong is not only
unpatriotic and servile
but it is morally treasonable to the
American public."

-Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

painful pictures stop the war now please

Anytime I need somone to prove my point, I can always
count on you.

Thanks for being there.

And we can always count on a slimy attorney, pleading the case for murder pain and death from your prospective. Terror is so blithe from individuals such as yourself.
Like I said, there better be a particular
place in hell for you smooth talking enablers of this obscenity or there is no god; only a devil.

So, now I've gone from being a PsyOps warrior, who
works for Langley, to being an attorney!

Geeze, you and Diogenes need to put your heads together and figure this out.

You show us the face of true evil.
No doubt in my mind at all.

Along with Saddam here are a couple of faces of true Evil

Check your facts:
1) This war has been planned for years, and there is a vast governmental paper trail stating clearly that the need to invade Iraq "transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein" - in other words, Iraq was to be invaded and occupied whether or not Saddam Hussein was in power.

2) This "collateral damage" was not caused by Iraqi firepower.

3) The gas and other WMDs used by Saddam Hussein on the Kurds and other Iraqis came to him from the U.S. during the Iran/Iraq war.

Do an internet search for the following phrases: "Pax Americana," "Project for the New American Century," and "Rebuilding America's Defenses" --
Here's a small sampling of what you'll find:

www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/0902/29bookman.html

www.sundayherald.com/27735

http://truthout.org/docs_03/022803A.shtml

www.commondreams.org/views02/1018-03.htm

www.sierratimes.com/gaddy.htm

www.americanfreepress.net/12_24_02/America_Pearl_Harbored.html

With minimal research, it becomes obvious that the Bush administration's reasons for the Iraq war have little to do with Saddam Hussein.

In this image from video, a body is covered next to a destroyed car in Baghdad, March 26, 2003. (Photo: AP) image546104x

Whatever. The big question that NO ONE seems to want to confront is Why on earth does "BagHdad" now have an "h" in it. It certainly didn't in '91. I supect psyops.

Shehad Khalil, 7, lays in Al-Numan hospital after she was seriously wounded when a missile reportedly landed in a residential neighborhood of Baghdad, Monday, March 24, 2003, killing three and wounding 23. (Photo: AP) image545865x

A wounded child, seen in this image from video, cries in a hospital in Baghdad, Iraq, Saturday, March 22, 2003. Iraqi officials led a media tour to the hospital, claiming the people were injured in U.S. air strikes. (Photo: AP) image545256x

My head hurts but Bush and Blair will make it better...

A dead Iraqi soldier is covered by a blanket on a road in the Al Faw peninsula where British Marines from 40 and 42 commandos are operating, Saturday March 22, 2003. (Photo: AP) image545263x

A dead Iraqi soldier is covered by a blanket on a road in the Al Faw peninsula where British Marines from 40 and 42 commandos are operating, Saturday March 22, 2003. (Photo: AP) image545263x

Tank crews from the Alpha Company 4th Battalion 64 Armor Regiment pray during a heavy sand storm. (Photo: AP) image544672

Tank crews from the Alpha Company 4th Battalion 64 Armor Regiment pray during a heavy sand storm. (Photo: AP) image544672

What's become of this human race, convicting people without proof.
What's become of this world, ignoring international law.
Why choose violence, when you can have peace.
Why Iraq, but not Israel?
Will it be Iran and other countries with rich natural resources next on the list of invasion, and still NOT Israel ?
Why freedom for Iraqi's, and NOT freedom for Palestinians.
Why choose to be satan's advocate, when you know of heaven.
Well, of course, unless you're blind.
Blind To The MIND & HEART.

You anti-semites are really disturbing individuals.

Try to remember a few decades back, before the contemporary nation of Isreal existed, there was a man named Hitler, who just like yourself, wanted all Jews dead. So he went on a violent rampage against them.

No nation in the world would harbor these Jews. Boatloads of Jews were sent back to Germany to die at the hands of the Nazis. The Jews were without a country.

So the world gave them this:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/arabworld.html

a tiny piece of land in the middle of the desert.

But the Arabs and the anti-semites don't even want them to have that.

What a bunch of selfish bastards.

Oh, how I can't wait until Israel wipes every single last one of those Palestinians off the face of the Earth. Heil Sharon!!!

Whoever is doing the above, cut it out. As an anarchist who frequents here often and enjoys reading the comments, your childish play is damaging to not only the anti-war movement as a whole but is also beneath those of us who desire world change.

I have no sense of humour at all. I wear nothing but black. I have not laughed since I first saw my face in a mirror.

He's funny isn't he folks? Just like the Abott and Costello routine "who's on first?", Mr. Mocker the mockery man.

Like the 8 year old that repeats back everything you say in a prepubescent attempt to get under your skin, you'd like to take off your belt and spank him, but he's just so cute we're forced to let it pass.

Feel free to give him what he really needs and longs for, attention. I'm certain he was starved for it as a child, and now his "look at me daddy" personna dominates his every waking moment.

So don't hate him because he's inferior. Don't despise him because he's your intellectual subordinate.

Nestle him like he's your pet, a dumb animal that while really not knowing any better, he's just too cuddly to ignore.

He may be too cuddly to ignore, but I'M too much of a fool to ignore. Fuhrer Bush just loves buffoons like me. I never question anything, blindly accepting whatever the government says as the gospel truth. Even when the Empire crumbles, I'll still be in denial.

gee Eric, all i have is an usually small penis.

All I have is a small mind. After all, I AM a conservative!

I'm a useful idiot with an ususually small penis. I will mock you all into submission.

Wow! You know how to copy and paste the same message over and over on multiple threads? I was never able to master that. It is beyond my mental capabilities. Wait a second. I'll get my third grade buddy to show me how. After that, I'll screw his tight little butthole.

Notice Max Trasher above like most Israeli apologists he has trouble with the truth. It gets in the way of a good PR Spin.

Herzl, the head of the World Zionist Organization, and the head of the Rothschild family in London began lobbying the British Government for the establishment of Israel in the 1890’s some 50 years before the Holocaust.

This was followed by the Balfour Declaration which established “The Mandate of Palestine” in 1917.

Link: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/balfour.htm

During the onset of W.W.II the Zionists betrayed their Jewish Brethren and in exchange for their help in rounding up non-Zionist Jews (many of whom were relatives of mine) were allowed to move 200,000 hard core Zionists out of Nazi held territory to Palestine. This has been documented in detail by several Jewish Authors but you won’t hear much about it because it has largely been Suppressed - the authors black-balled and marginalized for telling an unpleasant and unpopular (to Zionist Supporters) truth.

The story of the Holocaust is ghastly and inhuman. The most ghastly aspect from my point of view was the betrayal of the Jewish People by the Zionists who helped ship their brethren off to the Death Camps.

In 1947 the population of what is now Israel was about 2 to 1 Palestinian Arabs to Native Jews and the Zionist “Squatters”.

Because of Israel’s racist policies, and Ethnic Cleansing, the territory of Palestine now known as Israel has been depopulated of Arabs (driven out and killed) to the point where Israel State Policy is that NO MORE than 15% of the population may be non-Ashkenazim Zionists (I will not dignify them by calling them Jews - many of them are Atheists and are jewish in ancestory only).

Israel was born in iniquity and continues committing atrocities against it’s Arab neighbors. To a large degree the hatred of Israel by their Arab neighbors is a result of, and reaction to, Israeli Polices and Actions. It is not always merely Anti-Semitism but righteous anger against a regime that emulates the Nazi’s they fled from.

I agree these photoes don't prove any thing. O yes that clip of Saddam laughing after Bush's speach, that proves every thing. That old old clip of him pasted right at the point where it seems he is laughing at America. And God forbid any body dare laugh at Al Mighty America. Don't start calling me names, I am not with Saddam on any thing. I wish US had ordered to kill Saddam many years ago. I know if US wanted Saddam dead it would take only one small order. But no that is not the objective. The objective is to wipe half the Iraqi population and appoint a puppet government, so there would be no resistance when US takes all the oil from them. My dear fellows try to think what is happening in Afganistan. The new pipe line has been laid to get the oil. The fields are filled with popy flowers so you Americans can recieve enough drugs to make you half a sleep. Why don't you clean up your own backyard before attaking others. One more thing, you are soooo simpathetic with Afgan and Iraqi women that you forget you have "bountiful " living right in your own land. Wake up American dearest.

>The new pipe line has been laid to get the oil.

No pipeline has been laid. One lie is all it takes to not believe anything you say.

It's nice to know that I can count on idiots like you to turn a blind eye to the truth. Even if I were to show you satellite photos of our pipeline, you STILL wouldn't get it. I don't care, as long as you continue to vote fascist, I mean, Republican!

You say this war was being planned a few years ago, so it couldn't have anything to do with Saddam... just incase you didn't already know, Saddam has been the leader of Iraq for over 20 years now... still, maybe they thought he'd retire or something right?

And heres another small peice of information for you to obtain, the very day Saddam was elected president, he took 7 members of the Iraqi government aside and shot them all. This is because he knewthey may not wouldn't stand for his shit. He knows he is an evil evil man and doesn't care who gets in his way, or what obstacles he may face, he'll do what it takes to always be in power... whether it be sending innocent women and children to war, to protect himself, of have photographs of "possible" US war victims shown to make the US and UK the bad guys. Clearly they want Saddam dead... and so do i. I hate the fact that innocent people are being killed to make this happen, but even more innocent people will be killed and live in a horrible world, where they feel threatened by their "leader", if this doesn't come to an end.

You pick which sounds like a better idea, but lets see how many casualties both scenerios end with.

A Tyrant 40 Years in the Making
By ROGER MORRIS

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/14/opinion/14MORR.html?ex=1048222800&en=b2164

SEATTLE - On the brink of war, both supporters and critics
of United States policy on Iraq agree on the origins, at
least, of the haunted relations that have brought us to
this pass: America's dealings with Saddam Hussein,
justifiable or not, began some two decades ago with its
shadowy, expedient support of his regime in the Iraq-Iran
war of the 1980's.

Both sides are mistaken. Washington's policy traces an
even longer, more shrouded and fateful history. Forty
years ago, the Central Intelligence Agency, under
President John F. Kennedy, conducted its own regime change
in Baghdad, carried out in collaboration with Saddam
Hussein.

The Iraqi leader seen as a grave threat in 1963 was Abdel
Karim Kassem, a general who five years earlier had deposed
the Western-allied Iraqi monarchy. Washington's role in
the coup went unreported at the time and has been little
noted since. America's anti-Kassem intrigue has been
widely substantiated, however, in disclosures by the
Senate Committee on Intelligence and in the work of
journalists and historians like David Wise, an authority
on the C.I.A.

From 1958 to 1960, despite Kassem's harsh repression, the
Eisenhower administration abided him as a counter to
Washington's Arab nemesis of the era, Gamal Abdel Nasser
of Egypt - much as Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush
would aid Saddam Hussein in the 1980's against the common
foe of Iran. By 1961, the Kassem regime had grown more
assertive. Seeking new arms rivaling Israel's arsenal,
threatening Western oil interests, resuming his country's
old quarrel with Kuwait, talking openly of challenging the
dominance of America in the Middle East - all steps Saddam
Hussein was to repeat in some form - Kassem was regarded
by Washington as a dangerous leader who must be removed.

In 1963 Britain and Israel backed American intervention in
Iraq, while other United States allies - chiefly France
and Germany - resisted. But without significant opposition
within the government, Kennedy, like President Bush today,
pressed on. In Cairo, Damascus, Tehran and Baghdad,
American agents marshaled opponents of the Iraqi regime.
Washington set up a base of operations in Kuwait,
intercepting Iraqi communications and radioing orders to
rebels. The United States armed Kurdish insurgents. The
C.I.A.'s "Health Alteration Committee," as it was
tactfully called, sent Kassem a monogrammed, poisoned
handkerchief, though the potentially lethal gift either
failed to work or never reached its victim.

Then, on Feb. 8, 1963, the conspirators staged a coup in
Baghdad. For a time the government held out, but
eventually Kassem gave up, and after a swift trial was
shot; his body was later shown on Baghdad television.
Washington immediately befriended the successor regime.
"Almost certainly a gain for our side," Robert Komer, a
National Security Council aide, wrote to Kennedy the day
of the takeover.

As its instrument the C.I.A. had chosen the authoritarian
and anti-Communist Baath Party, in 1963 still a relatively
small political faction influential in the Iraqi Army.
According to the former Baathist leader Hani Fkaiki, among
party members colluding with the C.I.A. in 1962 and 1963
was Saddam Hussein, then a 25-year-old who had fled to
Cairo after taking part in a failed assassination of
Kassem in 1958.

According to Western scholars, as well as Iraqi refugees
and a British human rights organization, the 1963 coup was
accompanied by a bloodbath. Using lists of suspected
Communists and other leftists provided by the C.I.A., the
Baathists systematically murdered untold numbers of Iraq's
educated elite - killings in which Saddam Hussein himself
is said to have participated. No one knows the exact toll,
but accounts agree that the victims included hundreds of
doctors, teachers, technicians, lawyers and other
professionals as well as military and political figures.

The United States also sent arms to the new regime,
weapons later used against the same Kurdish insurgents the
United States had backed against Kassem and then
abandoned. Soon, Western corporations like Mobil, Bechtel
and British Petroleum were doing business with Baghdad -
for American firms, their first major involvement in Iraq.

But it wasn't long before there was infighting among
Iraq's new rulers. In 1968, after yet another coup, the
Baathist general Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr seized control,
bringing to the threshold of power his kinsman, Saddam
Hussein. Again, this coup, amid more factional violence,
came with C.I.A. backing. Serving on the staff of the
National Security Council under Lyndon Johnson and Richard
Nixon in the late 1960's, I often heard C.I.A. officers -
including Archibald Roosevelt, grandson of Theodore
Roosevelt and a ranking C.I.A. official for the Near East
and Africa at the time - speak openly about their close
relations with the Iraqi Baathists.

This history is known to many in the Middle East and
Europe, though few Americans are acquainted with it, much
less understand it. Yet these interventions help explain
why United States policy is viewed with some cynicism
abroad. George W. Bush is not the first American president
to seek regime change in Iraq. Mr. Bush and his advisers
are following a familiar pattern.

The Kassem episode raises questions about the war at hand.
In the last half century, regime change in Iraq has been
accompanied by bloody reprisals. How fierce, then, may be
the resistance of hundreds of officers, scientists and
others identified with Saddam Hussein's long rule? Why
should they believe America and its latest Iraqi clients
will act more wisely, or less vengefully, now than in the
past?

If a new war in Iraq seems fraught with danger and
uncertainty, just wait for the peace.


Roger Morris, author of "Richard Milhous Nixon: The Rise
of an American Politician," is completing a book about
United States covert policy in Central and South Asia.

IT'S NOT ABOUT OIL OR IRAQ.
IT'S ABOUT THE US AND EUROPE
GOING HEAD-TO-HEAD ON WORLD ECONOMIC DOMINANCE.
By Geoffrey Heard
Melbourne, Australia

Summary: Why is George Bush so hell bent on war with Iraq? Why does
his administration reject every positive Iraqi move? It all makes
sense when you consider the economic implications for the USA of not
going to war with Iraq. The war in Iraq is actually the US and Europe
going head to head on economic leadership of the world.

America's Bush administration has been caught in outright lies, gross
exaggerations and incredible inaccuracies as it trotted out its
litany of paper thin excuses for making war on Iraq. Along with its
two supporters, Britain and Australia, it has shifted its ground and
reversed its position with a barefaced contempt for its audience. It
has manipulated information, deceived by commission and omission and
frantically "bought" UN votes with billion dollar bribes.

Faced with the failure of gaining UN Security Council support for
invading Iraq, the USA has threatened to invade without
authorisation. It would act in breach of the UN's very constitution
to allegedly enforced UN resolutions.

It is plain bizarre. Where does this desperation for war come from?

There are many things driving President Bush and his administration
to invade Iraq, unseat Saddam Hussein and take over the country. But
the biggest one is hidden and very, very simple. It is about the
currency used to trade oil and consequently, who will dominate the
world economically, in the foreseeable future -- the USA or the
European Union.

Iraq is a European Union beachhead in that confrontation. America had
a monopoly on the oil trade, with the US dollar being the fiat
currency, but Iraq broke ranks in 1999, started to trade oil in the
EU's euros, and profited. If America invades Iraq and takes over, it
will hurl the EU and its euro back into the sea and make America's
position as the dominant economic power in the world all but
impregnable.

It is the biggest grab for world power in modern times.

America's allies in the invasion, Britain and Australia, are betting
America will win and that they will get some trickle-down benefits
for jumping on to the US bandwagon.

France and Germany are the spearhead of the European force -- Russia
would like to go European but possibly can still be bought off.

Presumably, China would like to see the Europeans build a share of
international trade currency ownership at this point while it
continues to grow its international trading presence to the point
where it, too, can share the leadership rewards.

DEBATE BUILDING ON THE INTERNET

Oddly, little or nothing is appearing in the general media about this
issue, although key people are becoming aware of it -- note the
recent slide in the value of the US dollar. Are traders afraid of
war? They are more likely to be afraid there will not be war.

But despite the silence in the general media, a major world
discussion is developing around this issue, particularly on the
internet. Among the many articles: Henry Liu, in the 'Asia Times'
last June, it has been a hot topic on the Feasta forum, an
Irish-based group exploring sustainable economics, and W. Clark's
"The Real Reasons for the Upcoming War with Iraq: A Macroeconomic and
Geostrategic Analysis of the Unspoken Truth" has been published by
the 'Sierra Times', 'Indymedia.org', and 'ratical.org'.

This debate is not about whether America would suffer from losing the
US dollar monopoly on oil trading -- that is a given -- rather it is
about exactly how hard the USA would be hit. The smart money seems to
be saying the impact would be in the range from severe to
catastrophic. The USA could collapse economically.

OIL DOLLARS

The key to it all is the fiat currency for trading oil.

Under an OPEC agreement, all oil has been traded in US dollars since
1971 (after the dropping of the gold standard) which makes the US
dollar the de facto major international trading currency. If other
nations have to hoard dollars to buy oil, then they want to use that
hoard for other trading too. This fact gives America a huge trading
advantage and helps make it the dominant economy in the world.

As an economic bloc, the European Union is the only challenger to the
USA's economic position, and it created the euro to challenge the
dollar in international markets. However, the EU is not yet united
behind the euro -- there is a lot of jingoistic national politics
involved, not least in Britain -- and in any case, so long as nations
throughout the world must hoard dollars to buy oil, the euro can make
only very limited inroads into the dollar's dominance.

In 1999, Iraq, with the world's second largest oil reserves, switched
to trading its oil in euros. American analysts fell about laughing;
Iraq had just made a mistake that was going to beggar the nation. But
two years on, alarm bells were sounding; the euro was rising against
the dollar, Iraq had given itself a huge economic free kick by
switching.

Iran started thinking about switching too; Venezuela, the 4th largest
oil producer, began looking at it and has been cutting out the dollar
by bartering oil with several nations including America's bete noir,
Cuba. Russia is seeking to ramp up oil production with Europe
(trading in euros) an obvious market.

The greenback's grip on oil trading and consequently on world trade
in general, was under serious threat. If America did not stamp on
this immediately, this economic brushfire could rapidly be fanned
into a wildfire capable of consuming the US's economy and its
dominance of world trade.

HOW DOES THE US GET ITS DOLLAR ADVANTAGE?

Imagine this: you are deep in debt but every day you write cheques
for millions of dollars you don't have -- another luxury car, a
holiday home at the beach, the world trip of a lifetime.

Your cheques should be worthless but they keep buying stuff because
those cheques you write never reach the bank! You have an agreement
with the owners of one thing everyone wants, call it petrol/gas, that
they will accept only your cheques as payment. This means everyone
must hoard your cheques so they can buy petrol/gas. Since they have
to keep a stock of your cheques, they use them to buy other stuff
too. You write a cheque to buy a TV, the TV shop owner swaps your
cheque for petrol/gas, that seller buys some vegetables at the fruit
shop, the fruiterer passes it on to buy bread, the baker buys some
flour with it, and on it goes, round and round -- but never back to
the bank.

You have a debt on your books, but so long as your cheque never
reaches the bank, you don't have to pay. In effect, you have received
your TV free.

This is the position the USA has enjoyed for 30 years -- it has been
getting a free world trade ride for all that time. It has been
receiving a huge subsidy from everyone else in the world. As it debt
has been growing, it has printed more money (written more cheques) to
keep trading. No wonder it is an economic powerhouse!

Then one day, one petrol seller says he is going to accept another
person's cheques, a couple of others think that might be a good idea.
If this spreads, people are going to stop hoarding your cheques and
they will come flying home to the bank. Since you don't have enough
in the bank to cover all the cheques, very nasty stuff is going to
hit the fan!

But you are big, tough and very aggressive. You don't scare the other
guy who can write cheques, he's pretty big too, but given a
'legitimate' excuse, you can beat the tripes out of the lone gas
seller and scare him and his mates into submission.

And that, in a nutshell, is what the USA is doing right now with Iraq.

AMERICA'S PRECARIOUS ECONOMIC POSITION

America is so eager to attack Iraq now because of the speed with
which the euro fire could spread. If Iran, Venezuela and Russia join
Iraq and sell large quantities of oil for euros, the euro would have
the leverage it needs to become a powerful force in general
international trade. Other nations would have to start swapping some
of their dollars for euros.

The dollars the USA has printed, the 'cheques' it has written, would
start to fly home, stripping away the illusion of value behind them.
The USA's real economic condition is about as bad as it could be; it
is the most debt-ridden nation on earth, owing about US$12,000 for
every single one of it's 280 million men, women and children. It is
worse than the position of Indonesia when it imploded economically a
few years ago, or more recently, that of Argentina.

Even if OPEC did not switch to euros wholesale (and that would make a
very nice non-oil profit for the OPEC countries, including minimising
the various contrived debts America has forced on some of them), the
US's difficulties would build. Even if only a small part of the oil
trade went euro, that would do two things immediately:

* Increase the attractiveness to EU members of joining the
'eurozone', which in turn would make the euro stronger and make it
more attractive to oil nations as a trading currency and to other
nations as a general trading currency.

* Start the US dollars flying home demanding value when there isn't
enough in the bank to cover them.

* The markets would over-react as usual and in no time, the US
dollar's value would be spiralling down.

THE US SOLUTION

America's response to the euro threat was predictable. It has come
out fighting.

It aims to achieve four primary things by going to war with Iraq:

* Safeguard the American economy by returning Iraq to trading oil in
US dollars, so the greenback is once again the exclusive oil currency.

* Send a very clear message to any other oil producers just what
will happen to them if they do not stay in the dollar circle. Iran
has already received one message -- remember how puzzled you were
that in the midst of moderation and secularization, Iran was named as
a member of the axis of evil?

* Place the second largest reserves of oil in the world under direct
American control.

* Provide a secular, subject state where the US can maintain a huge
force (perhaps with nominal elements from allies such as Britain and
Australia) to dominate the Middle East and its vital oil. This would
enable the US to avoid using what it sees as the unreliable Turkey,
the politically impossible Israel and surely the next state in its
sights, Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of al Qaeda and a hotbed of
anti-American sentiment.

* Severe setback the European Union and its euro, the only trading
bloc and currency strong enough to attack the USA's dominance of
world trade through the dollar.

* Provide cover for the US to run a covert operation to overturn the
democratically elected government of Venezuela and replace it with an
America-friendly military supported junta -- and put Venezuala's oil
into American hands.

Locking the world back into dollar oil trading would consolidate
America's current position and make it all but impregnable as the
dominant world power -- economically and militarily. A splintered
Europe (the US is working hard to split Europe; Britain was easy, but
other Europeans have offered support in terms of UN votes) and its
euro would suffer a serious setback and might take decades to recover.

It is the boldest grab for absolute power the world has seen in
modern times. America is hardly likely to allow the possible
slaughter of a few hundred thousand Iraqis stand between it and world
domination.

President Bush did promise to protect the American way of life. This
is what he meant.

JUSTIFYING WAR

Obviously, the US could not simply invade Iraq, so it began casting
around for a 'legitimate' reason to attack. That search has been one
of increasing desperation as each rationalization has crumbled. First
Iraq was a threat because of alleged links to al Qaeda; then it was
proposed Iraq might supply al Qaeda with weapons; then Iraq's
military threat to its neighbours was raised; then the need to
deliver Iraqis from Saddam Hussein's horrendously inhumane rule;
finally there is the question of compliance with UN weapons
inspection.

The USA's justifications for invading Iraq are looking less
impressive by the day. The US's statements that it would invade Iraq
unilaterally without UN support and in defiance of the UN make a
total nonsense of any American claim that it is concerned about the
world body's strength and standing.

The UN weapons inspectors have come up with minimal infringements of
the UN weapons limitations -- the final one being low tech rockets
which exceed the range allowed by about 20 percent. But there is no
sign of the so-called weapons of mass destruction (WMD) the US has so
confidently asserted are to be found. Colin Powell named a certain
north Iraqi village as a threat. It was not. He later admitted it was
the wrong village.

'Newsweek' (24/2) has reported that while Bush officials have been
trumpeting the fact that key Iraqi defector, Lt. Gen. Hussein Kamel,
told the US in 1995 that Iraq had manufactured tonnes of nerve gas
and anthrax (Colin Powell's 5 February presentation to the UN was
just one example) they neglected to mention that Kamel had also told
the US that these weapons had been destroyed.

Parts of the US and particularly the British secret 'evidence' have
been shown to come from a student's masters thesis.

America's expressed concern about the Iraqi people's human rights and
the country's lack of democracy are simply not supported by the USA's
history of intervention in other states nor by its current actions.
Think Guatemala, the Congo, Chile and Nicaragua as examples of a much
larger pool of US actions to tear down legitimate, democratically
elected governments and replace them with war, disruption,
starvation, poverty, corruption, dictatorships, torture, rape and
murder for its own economic ends. The most recent, Afghanistan, is
not looking good; in fact that reinstalled a murderous group of
warlords which America had earlier installed, then deposed, in favour
of the now hated Taliban.

Saddam Hussein was just as repressive, corrupt and murderous 15 years
ago when he used chemical weapons, supplied by the US, against the
Kurds. The current US Secretary for Defence, Donald Rumsfeld, so
vehement against Iraq now, was on hand personally to turn aside
condemnation of Iraq and blame Iran. At that time, of course, the US
thought Saddam Hussein was their man -- they were using him against
the perceived threat of Iran's Islamic fundamentalism.

Right now, as 'The Independent' writer, Robert Fisk, has noted, the
US's efforts to buy Algeria's UN vote includes promises of re-arming
the military which has a decade long history of repression, torture,
rape and murder Saddam Hussein himself would envy. It is estimated
200,000 people have died, and countless others been left maimed by
the activities of these monsters. What price the US's humanitarian
concerns for Iraqis? (Of course, the French are also wooing Algeria,
their former north African territory, for all they are worth, but at
least they are not pretending to be driven by humanitarian concerns.)

Indonesia is another nation with a vote and influence as the largest
Muslim nation in the world. Its repressive, murderous military is
regaining strength on the back of the US's so-called anti-terror
campaign and is receiving promises of open and covert support --
including intelligence sharing.

AND VENEZUELA

While the world's attention is focused on Iraq, America is both
openly and covertly supporting the "coup of the rich" in Venezuela,
which grabbed power briefly in April last year before being
intimidated by massive public displays of support by the poor for
democratically-elected President Chavez Frias. The coup leaders
continue to use their control of the private media, much of industry
and the ear of the American Government and its oily intimates to
cause disruption and disturbance.

Venezuela's state-owned oil resources would make rich pickings for
American oil companies and provide the US with an important oil
source in its own backyard.

Many writers have noted the contradiction between America's alleged
desire to establish democracy in Iraq while at the same time,
actively undermining the democratically-elected government in
Venezuela. Above the line, America rushed to recognise the coup last
April; more recently, President Bush has called for "early
elections", ignoring the fact that President Chavez Frias has won
three elections and two referendums and, in any case, early elections
would be unconstitutional.

One element of the USA's covert action against Venezuela is the
behaviour of American transnational businesses, which have locked out
employees in support of "national strike" action. Imagine them doing
that in the USA! There is no question that a covert operation is in
process to overturn the legitimate Venezuelan government. Uruguayan
congressman, Jose Nayardi, made it public when he revealed that the
Bush administration had asked for Uruguay's support for Venezuelan
white collar executives and trade union activists "to break down
levels of intransigence within the Chavez Frias administration". The
process, he noted, was a shocking reminder of the CIA's 1973
intervention in Chile which saw General Pinochet lead his military
coup to take over President Allende's democratically elected
government in a bloodbath.

President Chavez Frias is desperately clinging to government, but
with the might of the USA aligned with his opponents, how long can he
last?

THE COST OF WAR

Some have claimed that an American invasion of Iraq would cost so
many billions of dollars that oil returns would never justify such an
action.

But when the invasion is placed in the context of the protection of
the entire US economy for now and into the future, the balance of the
argument changes.

Further, there are three other vital factors:

First, America will be asking others to help pay for the war because
it is protecting their interests. Japan and Saudi Arabia made serious
contributions to the cost of the 1991 Gulf war.

Second -- in reality, war will cost the USA very little -- or at
least, very little over and above normal expenditure. This war is
already paid for! All the munitions and equipment have been bought
and paid for. The USA would have to spend hardly a cent on new
hardware to prosecute this war -- the expenditure will come later
when munitions and equipment have to be replaced after the war. But
munitions, hardware and so on are being replaced all the time --
contracts are out. Some contracts will simply be brought forward and
some others will be ramped up a bit, but spread over a few years, the
cost will not be great. And what is the real extra cost of an army at
war compared with maintaining the standing army around the world,
running exercises and so on? It is there, but it is a relatively
small sum.

Third -- lots of the extra costs involved in the war are dollars
spent outside America, not least in the purchase of fuel. Guess how
America will pay for these? By printing dollars it is going to war to
protect. The same happens when production begins to replace hardware.
components, minerals, etc. are bought in with dollars that go
overseas and exploit America's trading advantage.

The cost of war is not nearly as big as it is made out to be. The
cost of not going to war would be horrendous for the USA -- unless
there were another way of protecting the greenback's world trade
dominance.

AMERICA'S TWO ACTIVE ALLIES

Why are Australia and Britain supporting America in its transparent
Iraqi war ploy?

Australia, of course, has significant US dollar reserves and trades
widely in dollars and extensively with America. A fall in the US
dollar would reduce Australia's debt, perhaps, but would do nothing
for the Australian dollar's value against other currencies. John
Howard, the Prime Minister, has long cherished the dream of a free
trade agreement with the USA in the hope that Australia can jump on
the back of the free ride America gets in trade through the dollar's
position as the major trading medium. That would look much less
attractive if the euro took over a significant part of the oil trade.

Britain has yet to adopt the euro. If the US takes over Iraq and
blocks the euro's incursion into oil trading, Tony Blair will have
given his French and German counterparts a bloody nose, and gained
more room to manouevre on the issue -- perhaps years more room.
Britain would be in a position to demand a better deal from its EU
partners for entering the "eurozone" if the new currency could not
make the huge value gains guaranteed by a significant role in world
oil trading. It might even be in a position to withdraw from Europe
and link with America against continental Europe.

On the other hand, if the US cannot maintain the oil trade dollar
monopoly, the euro will rapidly go from strength to strength, and
Britain could be left begging to be allowed into the club.

THE OPPOSITION

Some of the reasons for opposition to the American plan are obvious
-- America is already the strongest nation on earth and dominates
world trade through its dollar. If it had control of the Iraqi oil
and a base for its forces in the Middle East, it would not add to,
but would multiply its power.

The oil-producing nations, particularly the Arab ones, can see the
writing on the wall and are quaking in their boots.

France and Germany are the EU leaders with the vision of a resurgent,
united Europe taking its rightful place in the world and using its
euro currency as a world trading reserve currency and thus gaining
some of the free ride the United States enjoys now. They are the ones
who initiated the euro oil trade with Iraq.

Russia is in deep economic trouble and knows it will get worse the
day America starts exploiting its take-over of Afghanistan by running
a pipeline southwards via Afghanistan from the giant southern Caspian
oil fields. Currently, that oil is piped northwards -- where Russia
has control.

Russia is in the process of ramping up oil production with the
possibility of trading some of it for euros and selling some to the
US itself. Russia already has enough problems with the fact that oil
is traded in US dollars; if the US has control of Iraqi oil, it could
distort the market to Russia's enormous disadvantage. In addition,
Russia has interests in Iraqi oil; an American take over could see
them lost. Already on its knees, Russia could be beggared before a
mile of the Afghanistan pipeline is laid.

ANOTHER SOLUTION?

The scenario clarifies the seriousness of America's position and
explains its frantic drive for war. It also suggests that solutions
other than war are possible.

Could America agree to share the trading goodies by allowing Europe
to have a negotiated part of it? Not very likely, but it is just
possible Europe can stare down the USA and force such an outcome.
Time will tell. What about Europe taking the statesmanlike,
humanitarian and long view, and withdrawing, leaving the oil to the
US, with appropriate safeguards for ordinary Iraqis and democracy in
Venezuela?

Europe might then be forced to adopt a smarter approach -- perhaps
accelerating the development of alternative energy technologies which
would reduce the EU's reliance on oil for energy and produce goods it
could trade for euros -- shifting the world trade balance.

Now that would be a very positive outcome for everyone.

. . . .

Geoffrey Heard is a Melbourne, Australia, writer on the environment,
sustainability and human rights.
. . . .

Geoffrey Heard C 2003. Anyone is free to circulate this document
provided it is complete and in its current form with attribution and
no payment is asked. It is prohibited to reproduce this document or
any part of it for commercial gain without the prior permission of
the author. For such permission, contact the author at
gheard@surf.net.au.

SOME REFERENCES AND FURTHER INFORMATION:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
'The Real Reasons for the Upcoming War With Iraq: A Macroeconomic and
Geostrategic Analysis of the Unspoken Truth' by W. Clark, January
2003 (revised 20 February), Independent Media Center,
www.indymedia.org

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=28334
This war is about more than oil. OIL DOLLARS!!!! DOLLARS, THE EURO
AND WAR IN IRAQ.
This story is based on material posted by Richard Douthwaite on the
FEASTA list in Ireland.

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/1550023_comment.php#1551138
USA intelligence agencies revealed in plot to oust Venezuela's President

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentI
d=A41444-2003Jan11¬Found=true
Washington Post
Split Screen In Strike-Torn Venezuela
By Mark Weisbrot Sunday, January 12, 2003; Page B04

http://www.atimes.com/global-econ/DD11Dj01.html
Asia Times online: Global Economy
US dollar hegemony has got to go
By Henry C K Liu

http://www.feasta.org/energy.htm

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/EnemyWithin.html
The Observer
The Enemy Within
by Gore Vidal London, Sunday 27 October 2002

British Royal Air Force medic Craig Short tends to the stitches on the stomach of a six-year-old Iraqi boy who sustained shrapnel injuries from artillery fire near Basra, southern Iraq, Friday March 28, 2003. (Photo: AP) image546620x

these pictures show the real bastial nature of the US president who is only after the Iraqi oil and has no feelings for mankind and humanity. And above all he speaks of iraqis liberation. US President is the biggest rascal and terrorist of the world even acknowledged by his own countrymen.

Can any US national justify this ghastly act on their part to injure and kill these kids. would they like their kids to be killed like this. where is world's conscience ?

While I agree with muneer. The answer I have heard from the opposing debaters is that Sadaam has killed many Iraqi civilians too. This is true. SADAAM IS EVIL. The point I would like to make is if American soldiers are forced to kill many civilians in the name of the dead (civilians that SADAAM killed) does that make it right?

...erected by the Bush Junta and their sycophants are growing.

Such rubbish. This war is about liberating the Iraqi people. That's what I heard on Fox News, anyway.

I strongly disagree with Fresca. The war has been constantly changing in its motivation from being about Saddam's violation of UN resolutions regarding the development of WMD, to the notion of Saddam being a threat to "America and its allies" to finally the "liberation" of the Iraqi people.

The "liberation" of Iraqi people is simply an unintended side-effect of a war that is being waged as a result of the American knee-jerk paranoial reaction to September 11th. In essence, the war is only being fought to increase the sense of security for insecure Americans in general. As clearly demonstrated though, it is only their "sense" of security that is being improved, not their real security.

The current administration however, would like it known that it is their immense compassion for the Iraqi people that has compelled them to fight this war. In reality, though, the notion of "liberation" was an attempt at winning world opinion.

The world was not fooled and did not easily buy into the slogan "Liberate Iraq" as did their American counterparts.

Furthermore, if the war truly was first and foremost a war of liberation, one would wonder why the idea of "liberation" as motivation for the war did not become an official position until after the "State of the Union" speech. Only after world opinion had asserted its opposition to a war.

Basically, the "liberation" idea was an attempt to gain support from liberals and people concerned with the well-being of people unlike themselves. However, those targetted could clearly see that it was simply an attempt by the Bush administration to gain "moral high ground" (of which one could easily say now that they didn't think they had) over the war opposition.

I leave you all with one last thought:

If Saddam Hussein, and his current regime was not producing weapons of mass destruction, would Americans still be pushing to "liberate" the Iraqi people from his rule?

I think not.


Sincerely,

The New X

Sorry, I did not actually realize that Fresca's post was not Fresca's post.

Sincerely

The New X

Sorry, I did not actually realize that Fresca's post was not Fresca's post.

Sincerely

The New X

That WAS my post, you nincompoop. Can you not read?

PEOPLE!!!! Wake up and smell the bull. The attack on Iraq was planned years ago, yes, and Saddam was in power, yes, so this is to say that the attack on Saddam was preplanned because he's always been a bad guy and general no-goodnick.

WHY DID THE US SELL HIM ALL HIS WEAPONS AND TEACH HIS SCIENTISTS TO DO WHAT THEY NOW CLAIM HE HAS NO RIGHT TO DO???!!!

I'll tell you why, Saddam was a good guy when Iraq was the bully of the region. Ohhhhhhh yes, y'awl loved him then didn't y'awl? "Sell him all our American weapons so he can fight Iran, those raging lunatics!" (Note the sarcasm!). For those hyprocrites out there, I have one question: did you not want to "SAVE IRAQI'S" then? Hmm? Where the HELL were you all when it was time to save those oppressed Iraqi's THEN? No answer? That's because you don't have one. HYPOCRITES!

But you all go ahead and tell yourselves that your lives are being put on the line by His Excellency King, Georgie "Wackjob" Bush!

After the attack
Iraqis carry a piece of a U.S. bomb they found after a March 29 attack on the Information Ministry in Baghdad. 030329_war_05

No body is in denial about what Saddam is and what he did. The only people who are in denial are you who think this war is about Saddam and to librate Iraqi people from him. You don't have to kill inocent Iraqis to achieve this objective.

I agree with Derby but two wrongs never make a right. I f saddam did something terrible and in fact he should be the most hated person in the world but why should US reciprocate in the same way in the name of Iraqis' freedom. I urge all the US saner element not to play in the hands of Zionists who have hijacked their own freedom and liberty.
Now the US shows the pictures of Halabja chemical war led by Saddam on Kurds but at that time, US did support Saddam.

Everybody has a moral obligation to provide in one way or another to the betterment of their community and the world at large.So Iraqi has to .Stop killing poeple and children.

After I pulled my head out of my ass, I realized that it is the US who is killing people and children.

/

We will reap what we sow. on Sept 11th 2001 - we American people paid in a fireball - for decades of brutal fascist US foreign policy. (Assuming that it was indeed jihad and not a Reichstag scenario)

"Our leaders" will not save us, they will only get us killed.

About Saddam, yes he's a bastard, so why did the US support him for so long? Same reason "our leaders" supporteed the Taliban for so long, it was politically convenient. "Our leaders" don't care if US troops and Iraqi children have to pay the price with their lives, for such decisons. NOr will they care when we get our ass blown off in retaliation.

About these pictures. How can anything but hatred for the US grow in the hearts of Iraqis and other Arab nations - after what we are doing to Iraq, a relatively defenseless country?

The most powerful technologically advanced nation in the history of the world throws everything it has at a poor broken third world country (yet again) and you call this a war? - NO, its a massacre. There have been many massacres in Iraq this past week.

To answer the question of why don't we see this pictures on CNN? They have access to these pictures - but choose NOT to show them. They don't show us the consequences of the choices made by "our leaders"

The media is run by fascists just like our gov't is. Isn't that obvious by now?

Anyone who is in denial about how these kids got hurt, or why (so the US can control Iraq's oil) - please, wake up and smell the cruise missles. (you don't know what its like to be bombed do you? - you will.) An excellent resource for US foreign policy is: http://www.americanstateterrorism.com

Anyone who sees these pictures and feels no sadness or remorse - is dead already as you totally lack empathy, the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes or in their bloody broken battered body.

Alas.. this country has a long history of psychopathic genocidal murderers running things. Fuck your American empire.If you support this war, I hope you burn to death in your gas guzzling SUV.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

Troops, please come back as this will happen to all of us and our government won't even give you health benefits...

We are the only civilized country without health benefits - you only receive them until you have a job with the corporations so they can get a tax break for it, which we are the taxpayers for this tax break.

If you don't have a job, you don't get health care...

Thoroughly ashamed...

Weeee, I'm Robert Fisk!
Weeee, I'll print any accusation, no matter if there is no corroboration, as long as it reflects badly on the Americans!
Weeee, I don't worry about little things like a lack of bomb craters at sites that were supposedly bombed!
Weeee!

Analysis of Psympleton's Post: "I can't produce any facts to support my position so I'll just launch a personal attack of the opposition and hope people will be so turned off they won't look and think for themselves."

Look at all the pretty pictures you want. I encourage all Americans to do so.

The question is one of intent on Mr. Fisk's part.

He has cobbled together a number of images which are not related to each other.

In some cases, his 'victims' are wearing Iraqi Army uniforms.

In other cases, it is unclear who had 'victimized' the people in question. The regime in power has a long and well-documented history of murdering tens of thousands of fellow Iraqis. The United States military is renowned world-wide for it's good treatment of enemy combatants, and for it's scrupulousness in avoiding civilian casualties.

You and Mr. Fisk are asking us to believe in your idiotic bizzarro world, where the Iraqi regime is virtuous and just, and the Americans just love to run Iraqis under their tank treads.

Did it ever occur to either of you two geniuses that if we WANTED to we could kill every man, woman, child, and goat in that whole country? And I'm not talking about nuclear weapons. Howabout a nice little carpet-bombing of the slums with incendiary bombs? Get the temperature nice and high so the waves of flames (spread by the accomidating desert winds) would incinerate every inch of Baghdad and immolate every soul therein. Of course we'd drop some time-delayed HE just to thwart the efforts of any firemen. You should see the look of surprise on their faces when they pull up to put out a fire and BLAMMO! 1,000 lbs of TNT go off in their faces.

You see, we could do it if we wanted to. So since we're not doing it - it must mean that we don't want to.

.God bless you Melanie Thomas. This is the right way to express your point. Any idiot can swear but it takes an intelligence person to use decent language. Most of the people in this world are with you praying for peace and then there are some on the othere side.

Thanks, Simon, for being one of our most loyal viewers. Thanks also for attacking anyone who dares tell the people the real truth. We count on oblivious rednecks like you to do that for us. Just keep your television on Fox. We distort, you comply.

Picture of little girl in Basra/U.S Bombing survivor.

To all American Nazi Fascists,
Your day of judgement will come.... perhaps sooner than you think.

Those picture of innocent Iraqis suffering makes me hate Saddam even more. HE is the cause of ALL of this. Saddam's regime has to be crushed before there is any peace in the ME.

You say Saddam is the cause of this!?!?!? You are fucked in the head. WE are on his turf and maiming and killing HIS people. Get a clue. This is NOT liberation, it is imperialism in the name of OIL!!!

You truly cannot be as naive as that post you did. NO ONE is that fucking stupid!!! Well....maybe....George Bush, but come on, you gotta be brighter than him. Let's face it: Everyone else is!!!!

GMABF if you believe one word of the garbage you posted.

What do you expect? I'm only twelve years old!

...how often the word "hate" crops up in the Warmongers posts?

WAKE UP!! Saddam Hussein has killed hundreds of thousands of the same people you are showing, and also has tortured countless other innocent people as well. This doesn't surprise, shock or sadden me one bit. Your Iraqi people are going to have to get some heart and rise up against your evil leader. The sooner you do that the sooner the violence will end. Help America help you or there will continue to be accidental civilian casualties. Thank Saddam Hussein for all of this.

Thanks for supporting our slaughter of civilians. Can I count on you during the next invasion? Also, will you be at the KKK meeting tomorrow night?

No wonder Melanie Griffith left you for Antonio.

Don's Johnson: "Help America help you or there will continue to be accidental civilian casualties."

I'm not sure if that was an iron fist or a velvet glove?

...reminds me of the shylock telling me to pay the vig so I don't have an "accident"...

Fido: "Did it ever occur to either of you two geniuses that if we WANTED to we could kill every man, woman, child, and goat in that whole country?"

...I can just bet that Fido was furiously pounding away at his flaccid and long dead member as he typed each word there....

...you contemptable piece of shit....

You really are a silly little pud, KPC.

I am merely reiterating the fact that we are going to Herculean lengths to avoid innocent bloodshed. I am also pointing to the fact that we have a long history of doing so. And I am also contrasting our humanity with the barbarity of our opponent in this struggle.

Furthermore, all I am stating is fact. And, as usual, all you state is drivel.

And yet you still wont acknowledge the fact that Saddam has killed more Iraqis (Arabs) than this coalition will ever get close to. All you have to do is stop being a coward and fight against the regime which is hurthing your people so much. Life is so much better than what has been forced upon the Iraqi's by this terrioble dictator. Fight back, dont be a coward.

You're not listening.
Or doing any reading. Do you watch a lot of TV?
It can atrophy your apparently not heroic native
intellect/programing.
This is psycho babble from Fox news or some rabid
weasel idiot troth of current denial/lies. Pathetic.
Please come back with some source data.
Then we can analyze it. Don’t be a bobo.

A local Iraqi pours tea as a member of U.S.-led forces watches in a village south of the city of Basra in southern Iraq, March 30, 2003.

..before he got it RIGHT!
great fuzy! to the weasel cage. We are in for a
mass slide of warm fuzzys.

Here's some information worth knowing that you'll never get on CNN.
Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq? Or you don’t
even want to know?

Take the War on Iraq IQ Test (If you have any)

1. Q: What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have?
A: 6%
2. Q: What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have?
A: 50%
3. Q: Which country has the largest oil reserves?
A: Saudi Arabia
4. Q: Which country has the second largest oil reserves?
A: Iraq
5. Q: How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide?
A: $900+ billion
6. Q: How much of this is spent by the U.S.?
A: 50%
7. Q: What percent of US military spending would ensure the
essentials of life to everyone in the world, according the UN?
A: 10% (that's about$40 billion, the amount of funding initially
requested to fund our retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).
8. Q: How many people have died in wars since World War II?
A: 86 million
9. Q: How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons?
A: Since the early 1980's.
10. Q: Did Iraq develop these chemical & biological weapons on
their own?
A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US
government, along with Britain and private corporations.
11. Q: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas
warfare against Iran?
A: No
12. Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the
Kurdish town of Halabja in 1988?
A: 5,000
13. Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time?
A: 0
14. Q: How many gallons of agent Orange did America use in Vietnam?
A: 17million.
15. Q: Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th
terrorist attack?
A: No
16. Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in
the Gulf War?
A: 35,000
17. Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the
western ring in the Gulf War?
A: 0
18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S.
tanks with ploughs mounted on the front?
A: 6,000
19. Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and
Kuwait after the Gulf War?
A: 40 tons


20. Q: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in
Iraq between 1991 and 1994?
A: 700%
21. Q: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had
destroyed in 1991?
A: 80%
22. Q: Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for
anything other than deterrence and self-defense?
A: No
23. Q: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10
years ago?
A: No
24. Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the
event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3?
A: 10,000
25. Q: What percentage of these will be children?
A: Over 50%
26. Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq?
A: 11 years
27. Q: Was the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998
and September 1999?
A: No
28. Q: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between
December 1998 and September 1999?
A: 20 million
29. Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing
strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports?
A: 12 years
30. Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989
(per 1,000 births)?
A: 38
31. Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999
(per 1,000 births)?
A: 131 (that's an increase of345%)
32. Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as
a result of UN sanctions?
A: 1.5 million
33. Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to
sanctions since 1997?
A: 750,000
34. Q: Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq?
A: No
35. Q: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998?
A: 300
36. Q: How many of these inspections had problems?
A: 5
37. Q: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath
Party HQ?
A: Yes
38. Q: Who said that by December 1998, "Iraq had in fact, been
disarmed to a level unprecedented in modern history."
A: Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief.
39. Q: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop
weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim
to have discovered and dismantled?
A: 90%
40. Q: Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in?
A: yes
41. Q: How many UN resolutions did Israel violate by 1992?
A: Over65
42. Q: How many UN resolutions on Israel did America veto between
1972 and 1990?
A: 30+
44. Q: How many countries are known to have nuclear weapons?
A: 8
45. Q: How many nuclear warheads has Iraq got?
A: 0
46. Q: How many nuclear warheads have US got?
A: over 10,000
47. Q: Which is the only country to use nuclear weapons?
A: the US
48. Q: How many nuclear warheads does Israel have?
A: Over 400
49. Q: Has Israel ever allowed UN weapons inspections?
A: No
50. Q: What percentage of the Palestinian territories is controlled
by Israeli settlements?
A: 42%
51. Q: Is Israel illegally occupying Palestinian land?
A: Yes
52. Q: Which country do you think poses the greatest threat to
global peace: Iraq or the U.S.?
A: ?
53. Q: Who said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent
about things that matter"?
A: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr


This test consists of one (1) multiple-choice question (so you better
get it right!).

Look at this list of countries that the U.S. has bombed since the end of World War II, compiled by historian William Blum:
China 1945-46
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991-99
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999

Question: In how many of these instances did a democratic government,
respectful of human rights, occur as a direct result?
Choose one of the following:
(a) 0
(b) zero
(c) none
(d) not a one

This quiz compliments of Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

You have a long litany of stuff, some of which is either misleading and/or false, but the question is what country should America model its government after?

Nice to see that even though this country has forgotten the Vets, that they have not forgotten us.

Thanks for being one of our most loyal viewers, Skinner. We count on our redneck demographic to bring in the cash. Just keep your television tuned to Fox. We distort, you comply.

I have read many of the comments above. Not one was written by anyone who has experienced war as a child.
In 1970, war erupted in a part of Pakistan referred to as East Pakistan. Some refer to the war as a war of independence while others call it a civil war. Ultimately, it really doesn’t matter what it is called; it was just a war.
My parents had served in this little country for 12 years when the war broke out. At the start, we lived in a tiny town in the southeastern portion of the country. One afternoon, my two older sisters, my brother, and I were playing in the back yard. My oldest sister and I notice two fighter jets flying low across the rice fields and coming towards our town. Soon we heard the noise of machine gun fire erupt from the planes as they started to strafe the town. It was Friday. Market day in this small, rural community. The jets had no problem finding human targets as they ripped through. We knew that the jets were assets of the Pakistani Air Force under the command of Ayub Khan, the governor-general.
A short while after this attack, we moved to Dhaka, the capital of East Pakistan. My parents thought it would be safer and, if needed, would be the fastest route for an evacuation became necessary. I don’t recall how much time passed by between our arrival in Dhaka and the escalation of hostilities but my parents were soon faced with the decision of evacuation due to the closure of civil aviation and the border. My parents, along with my two older sisters, decided to remain in Dhaka to support the Bengali Christian community in this most desperate time.
As the war progressed, the Indian military became involved. They fought along side of the Bengali guerrillas against the Pakistani army and air force in an effort to liberate the Bengali people. India’s goal was not liberation of East Pakistan but the elimination of a strong adversary on its eastern border. However, that mattered little to the Bengali people who were struggling for their freedom.
As the war lead into its final stages, the Pakistani military was driven out of the countryside and into Dhaka. The Indian air force intensified their nightly raids and bombed the hell out of the city. Though they targeted the airport and the military cantonments, the bombs frequently struck civilian buildings and killed Bengalis. Our home was not very far from the airport and we could feel the bombs rip open their targets. We slept on the floor under tables in the hope of surviving damage to our house should a bomb strike nearby. We had no illusions of surviving a direct hit. In the final days, we experienced many a sleepless night as the ground trembled and the bomb blasts ripped through the city. There were many nights when we really didn’t believe we were going to survive.
The Pak army finally surrendered to Indian forces and Bangladesh was born. Bangladesh has been through some very tough times since 1971 but one thing is clear, Bangladesh is free of the likes of Ayub Khan.
Where was the UN when Ayub “Tikka” Khan killed demonstrators? Where was the UN when his troops executed professors and students from Dhaka University? Where was the UN when he had journalists and intellectuals rounded up, tortured, and shot? Where was the UN? They were sitting around talking about it. Talk is cheap unless you are willing to back it up with action. Go home, UN. Go home, so-called human shields. Go home, Voices in the Wilderness. Your talk is cheap.

May God bless Bangladesh, a free Iraq, and the United States of America.

Very moving.

God bless you and your family.

Collateral Damage? Would there be that much collateral damage if Saddam wouldn't put women and children in front of him. You gotta love how you people support a guy like that. Gee, they move, and Saddam shoots them. Stop trying to blame it on America. You know we use precision guided bombs. I bet it brought anger to you to see the thousands of Iraqis dancing in the streets ripping down Saddams statue. Why do peace protesters support Saddam? This is much different than the 60's. You actually want him to stay in power, don't you? Too bad the Iraqis don't want to keep him. Why do you think we were able to walk right into Bagdad with very little resisance? Why didn't they want to fight us? Didn't you claim that it would be just like Mogudishu? Well, wars over, time for all hippies to go back to work at McDonalds! LOL, Have fun burger flippers

Could someone please enlighten me as to why a standing U.N. army would be a bad idea?

Skinner do take the IQ test.
Could you enlighten me please? Which line of the IQ test is false or bogus? I didn’t make it up, it is written by your heroes. The one who fought for you and who know what a war does to people, even your own people. They have even given answers for your convenience. By the way your soldiers are people too.
As far as model for the government goes, I thought America has it’s own national and international democratic laws, or have you lost it ???????

They couldn’t. They are in a euphoric state now. Iraq is theirs.

Funny how the left is simply frothing over the "freedom" of "palestinians" but don't seem to concerned or interested in the recent freedom of Iraqis. I guess some arabs are more equal than others. Or maybe some "oppressors" are. Hmmm.

fresca, please consider enlisting in the Zionist army. Please help us wipe every single last one of those wicked Palestinians off the face of the Earth!

You have suffered one war and still condoning another. May be because your family survived, but thousands in Iraq didn’t.
We are talking about Iraq, and you want to open another can of worms here. If Mujeeb was the one who got you so called freedom then why did you kill him and his family so brutally? And I don’t hear there is a big change in lives of people there either.
As I said we are talking about another war here. Just remember Mujeeb was murdered, Ayub Tikka gone,Yahya gone, Bhutto was hanged. No one lives forever, and history tells the truth about him or her later.
The same way historian will write about current war if CIA allows them. But it will be OK for you because you believe in lawlessness. You don’t believe in UN, and just because couple of dictators do not listen to them you are condemning UN instead of condemning the country who is going against international laws. And please don’t compare India with America; it will be a shame for India. India helped Bangladesh get freedom and America is helping Iraq getting freedom. Yeah Yeaah

May God help countries that are weak and can not protect themselves from invaders.

Some of those IQ facts are a little off actually

For example, the U.S. makes up only 1% of the worlds population, not 6%, and controls about 25% of the worlds wealth, not a whopping 50%

The point is still good though, but I would re check your facts, after all, the ends don't justify the means. And giving inaccuracies isn't good.




I pray for a world free of tyranny, from Saddam and as well as the tyrants from our own country

who can deny there is tyranny here? If anyone out there believes we are a nation free of corruption and simple thirst of blood in our executive branch - or any branch for that matter, I challenge you to explain why you think that.

"No one lives forever, and history tells the truth about him or her later."

this comment isnt really a truth, history only tells what the superior power wants it to tell, case in point, as far as historians are concerned the U.S won WWII, whereas in fact Russia done the bulk of the fighting on the ground, western history has proven time and time again that the "truth" isnt so easy to grasp.

just watch what you say in future.

The USSR would not have been able to effectively oppose and repel Germany on the Eastern Front without massive weaponry and materiel shipments from the US...either on the convoy runs to Murmansk and Archangelsk and accross the Bering Strait from Alaska....they simply didnt have the manufacturing infrastructure that the US had prior to the war....so heaping praise on the Russians simply because they had more troops in the field than we did is intellectually dishonest....they were only fighting the Germans...we were fighting the Germans,the Italians AND the Japanese...and we did it in part with a blue water US Navy the the USSR never came close to duplicating

This war in Iraq can no longer be sold or justified.
Has anyone considered the ramifications of their support of The Bush Administration. Do you think everyone working for the government is so ignorant?
You that have created this almost fascist atmosphere . Your hate speech, racist statements, threats of violence. You will get whats coming to you, and that makes me feel happy.. Don't mistake justice for revenge, there will be some of both. People that had to put up with the Nazi's of WWII were bitter, and informed on those guilty of crimes against fellow citizens.
Your flag waving oppression will never be forgotten. Maybe you can hire Fred Phelps to defend you he's slicker than snot on a doorknob, and you have so much in common. I'm so happy to share this little bit of information with you. Three voters in one house all Loyal Democrats :)

My hearts breaks everyday for these Iraqi people. Where was Al Quida BEFORE we ran a muck in their Country?. the only reason we're there is because Bush loves Halliburton. Please watch this video. The segment on Uranium 238 starts about 20 minutes into the video.
I have to ask: Is it REALLY worth doing this to people just to have oil domination? To anyone suffering in Iraq: I am so sorry. And I am trying like hell to get these people to understand what is REALLY going on.
http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/viewers/realmedia/ramgen.php?media_id=6840