Many years ago, battles were fought for nobility. Battles were fought to end the tide of oppression in the face of grave danger that lay at the hands of us all. We have come to a similar cusp of time but with different circumstances laying ahead of us. We no longer face the evilness of one man or one nation, but the threats of many men from many nations. we can harken back to the past to gain new insights of this threat or we can begin aknew (?) for the strive of justice because somewhere along the way our visions of the destination have become clouded or were never fully thought out.

We no longer pursue measures of peace but instead measures of aggression against people. As our jobs disappear and are replaced by low wage, part-time, temporary work, we are left to question the intentions of people in power. We are left to question the mode in which we should all strive to live our lives. After the horriffic events on 9/11/01, the first thing that our "president" told us to do was shop. Imagine FDR after that fateful day on 12/7/41 telling us to shop. Imagine liscence plates and flags being hawked on every corner and flying in the face of our grief. We are no longer a nation of people but a nation of consumers. We have gone through great changes in the past 150 years. We have progressed from a slavery of people to the slavery of the marketplace. We no longer have a nation of people and nations, but a nation of corporations. Where every idea, every threat, every person and every war can be prepackaged and sold. We do not look out for each other but more look out for ourselves. In this we forget about community, we forget about civic duty and live in constant fear of something, whether it be rapists, terrorists, snipers, or kidnappers. Maybe we should worry about corporations stealing our lives, our education, our politics, our open spaces. What is the bigger threat to democracy and the health and welfare of the people, a nation dominated by fear and greed or a nation dominated by the people?

We don’t have to continue down that path.
The people’s strength will come from a broad ranging coalition.
In this regard, “It is the best of times as it is the worst of times”

Bush Admirer posts to the site are in the hundreds.

He abuses the Indymedia Project’s community open publishing by pistol whipping anybody that’s not a right wing ideologue. His actions are designed to disrupt or divert the flow of information by making B. A. the center of attention.

In open publishing jargon he is know as a TROLL!

Seems to me a troll would be someone who posts the same post again and again, with the intent to slander someone else. Sound like anybody you know Builder? (Hint: He's in your mirror).

i think there are various ways we can arrange things so that people who want to test their debating chops can do that without disturbing people who want to get moral or emotional support.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------

past (from Cecil), present, future

Got a problem with a redundant who’s pervasive?
Me too.

two proposals:

1. "Coping with disruptions in indymedia and other networked organizations"

2."....without disturbing people who want to just talk shit all night and day. some people who talk a lot of shit will shut up as soon as they can't impose it on someone. others will become constructive all of a sudden. others will suddenly want to debate shit talkers when they no longer feel REQUIRED to do so...."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
anticrisis

The Indymedia Project is a reporting tool for everyone.

Contradictory viewpoints are to be expected.

For an individual to manually ping the web site time and time again with derisive messaging is a noise tactic designed to censor the process.

Perhaps Lynx and Builder123 might volunteer to serve as 'Thought Police" for LA-IMC. They could read each and every comment deleting those that don't conform to 'acceptable thought.'

Another suggestion is to make a list of 'unacceptable thoughts' with a link from the top of the front page.

Unacceptable thoughts would include such items as:
- Republicans are not Nazis;
- The Pope is not infallible but Noam Chomsky is;
- Saddam isn't wonderful;
- Capitalism isn't the same thing as enslavement;
- People deserve to keep the wealth they've created for themselves,
- Bush is not Hitler reborn,
- etc. etc.

Perhaps Lynx and Builder123 might volunteer to serve as 'Thought Police" for LA-IMC. They could read each and every comment deleting those that don't conform to 'acceptable thought.'

Another suggestion is to make a list of 'unacceptable thoughts' with a link from the top of the front page.

Unacceptable thoughts would include such items as:
- Republicans are not Nazis;
- Noam Chomsky isn't infallible;
- Saddam isn't wonderful;
- Capitalism isn't the same thing as enslavement;
- People deserve to keep the wealth they've created for themselves,
- Bush is not Hitler reborn,
- etc. etc.

Whoa. Hold on Radical Lib, you'll be called a troll in no time with views like those.

Why do they call them trolls, anyway? Does that make everyone else sheep?

Builder, you really crack me up. Here we have Lynx (nee Anonymous Volunteer), who floods the board with hyperlinks and nothing else, as if a hyperlink is an argument. This is performance art. And like most performance art, it is a bunch of crap. If she is in any way a person of authority here it speaks poorly of Indymedia. Just because a person is committed doesn't mean they shouldn't be committed. On the other hand we have Bush Admirer, a person who holds a political view at variance with your own, but who is posting his own views in response to the comments of others. He is not 'spamming' like Lynx with constant repitition of the same post, he follows the argument and offers rebuttal. He does so, I might add, without resorting to threats or excessive profanity like so many of the intellectually stunted who lurk here do.

I appreciate the efforts of the editors of La Indymedia. I suspect theirs is a thankless task. But I would suggest that they look at who is really trolling and who is merely engaging in the debate.

IMC open publishing must be important, but how so?

1, 2, 3, 4, 5 how many times do some post in a day?

Positions defended and free speech demanded.

You guys are familiar with the right column of the web page, it’s time to take a look at the left column.
Disk space, office arrangements, internet connection and people’s time is what it takes so you can get that “message” out.

A credibility check:
Do you support the process or merely let the process support you?

"The LA IMC was founded to provide coverage of the DNC 2000 protests in Los Angeles. Since then, it's operated as a news outlet for activist information. It exists not only to disseminate news, but to reshape people's relationship to the media."

I don't see anything in here about how a particular point of view is to be embraced or how anyone who differs from that agenda is to be tarred a 'troll'.

If this is really just a place to get your marching orders and not to discuss issues, then please make it clear on the front page. Then free thinking people can steer clear, and the easily swayed cattle can be better organized. I was under the impression it was a place for people to discuss issues outside of the realm of conventional media.

Again, it is not my intention to insult the editors of LA Indymedia. It is only my desire that the forum be as open as it purports itself to be.

Simple Simon wrote:
"I don't see anything in here about how a particular point of view is to be embraced or how anyone who differs from that agenda is to be tarred a 'troll'.

If this is really just a place to get your marching orders and not to discuss issues, then please make it clear on the front page. Then free thinking people can steer clear, and the easily swayed cattle can be better organized. I was under the impression it was a place for people to discuss issues outside of the realm of conventional media.

It is only my desire that the forum be as open as it purports itself to be."

I would agree with some of the points Simple Simon points out. But there needs to be less polarization from many of the participants (on many different sides).
First of all, there should be a recognition that there ARE more than 2 sides, more than t2 points of view, and MORE THAN TWO POLITICAL PARTIES. This polarization only "disenfranchises" more and more people, as most people fall somewhere in the grand chasm in-between. The failure of the mainstream parties (both benign and malicious) has driven voter turnout lower, and lower, and lower... This polarization lends itself to Right vs. Left, Good vs. Evil, Us vs. Them, etc. This has helped us with congressional and federal government shutdowns (way to go elected officials - earn those paychecks FOR US!) It has also muted substantive debates on issues and over-hyped rhetoric. You don't need to be a history or political science major, although it helps, to discern the evolution of the two big parties, how they have morphed over the decades (and not for the better - either of them!) Both have validated their continued existense by demonizing the opposing side. This is one of the most devastating aspects of our Americal Political system. While not perfect, at least most of the other Democracies in the world recognize more than two parties, so you see coalitions and concessions, and things actually being down for the people (you know, the ones that validated your job's, politicians...)

I've come to see LA Indymedia as a "work-in-progress." But that it at least is willing to engage and discuss the method in which it develops. Not many other places on the 'net that are willing to do that! Engage in the debates that matter. Save the rhetoric, name calling, demonizing ("Noam Chomsky is a... Bush is a...") Those aren't arguments of substance. Those are knee-jerk responses. Many posts are awesome. Many are not. A lot of folk who post here need to do some introspection. Resist the urge to "bash." Engage the issues. Respect the participants. Many of us will engage on issues we disagree with, to allow others to more clearly define their positions. At least I will. If we can see where we are, respect others, and try to find some common ground on some of these issues we can address real solutions.
I know... Wishful thinking...

Let’s boil it down. The sites under attack. Activists posting to the site expect to come under attack from several sources. Why would anyone want to post under these conditions? The situation is being degraded at our expense.

Below is sampling of the luminary troll’s handiwork.


Silly Liberals
by Bush Admirer • Sunday December 15, 2002 Sunt 10:10 AM

Boo Hoo Hoo
by Bush Admirer • Tuesday December 31, 2002 Tuet 05:15 PM
mailto:
I love my Sore-Loserman Campaign button

You should apologize Dickweed, err Sheepdog
by Bush admirer • Thursday December 19, 2002 Thut 07:58 PM

They're better off
by Bush Admirer • Monday December 30, 2002 Mont 04:17 PM
mailto:
The American Indian should thank his lucky stars that his tribe lost the battle with the Europeans. His life style is much better than it would have been otherwise.

Cretin
by Bush Admirer • Sunday December 01, 2002 Sunt 06:50 PM

Definitely the dumbest man
by Bush Admirer • Tuesday December 03, 2002 Tuet 06:26 PM

What a horses ass
by Bush Admirer • Wednesday December 04, 2002 Wedt 05:46 PM

What a crock
by Bush Admirer • Saturday December 07, 2002 Satt 06:41 PM

Bardia
by Bush Admirer • Friday December 20, 2002 Frit 05:15 PM
mailto:
Bardia - If they're not US Citizens, then why should they have any constitutional rights?

It is really just about the oil
by Bush Admirer • Monday December 30, 2002 Mont 04:23 PM
mailto:
I love it whenever a left winger says, " It is really just about the oil."
Such a ridiculous comment serves to further discredit the already discredited left. It shows that they're either trying to spin the facts, or they're really really stupid.
I suspect both are true.

Bullshit
by Bush Admirer • Sunday December 29, 2002 Sunt 04:43 PM

Boshevik Dork
by Bush Admirer • Sunday December 29, 2002 Sunt 04:49 PM

Poor babies
by Bush Admirer • Tuesday December 10, 2002 Tuet 03:07 PM

Welcome aboard Jake
by Bush Admirer • Saturday December 07, 2002 Satt 06:50 PM
mailto:
With your presence here Jake, you've raised the average IQ of this board.

Doofus
by Bush Admirer • Saturday November 09, 2002 Satt 02:17 PM

Poor babies
by Bush Admirer • Friday November 08, 2002 Frit 07:24 PM
mailto:
Why are we treating them so gently. Be easy to kick them in the balls while they're strapped in like that. Seems the logical thing to do.

fair.org
by Bush Admirer • Friday December 27, 2002 Frit 05:06 PM
mailto:
Mike - Surely you jest. Fair.org is trying to put a happy face on Sean Penn's visit to Iraq. That's precisely like trying to put a happy face on Jane Fonda's visit to Hanoi. The operative word is: Disgusting.
That's disinformation all the way. Fair.org is in the same league with Pacifica Radio and Chairman Mao.

Stevens dearest
by Bush Admirer • Thursday December 26, 2002 Thut 07:52 PM
mailto:
Sweetie I hate to break the news to you, but I'm one hell of a lot more patriotic American than you are, assuming that you're into this NWO crap and anti-Bush crap.


Geez, what sour pusses
by Bush Admirer • Thursday December 26, 2002 Thut 06:38 AM
mailto:
C'mon, you kwow that you eagerly await my next post. Debate isn't very interesting if there is no disagreement.
With all the fantasy and dishonest posts here (eg: Read Andy above; read Chuckman above), you need someone like me to tether this helium filled balloon to the real world.

Wow! What a dump truck full of crap that was.
by Bush Admirer • Tuesday December 24, 2002 Tuet 12:58 PM
mailto:
After reading that I think I could use a bath. It seems I've been buried alive in bullshit.

Clued, or rather, Clueless
by Bush Admirer • Saturday December 21, 2002 Satt 05:59 AM
mailto:
With this great statement you identify yourself as a hypocrite: " I hate all you haters.

builder123
by Bush Admirer • Tuesday December 24, 2002 Tuet 03:09 AM
mailto:
>>> Bush Admirer posts to the site are in the hundreds.
Not really -- just drop in a couple times a day and respond to silly posts like this one.

Why do the Israelis put up with this bullshit?
by Bush Admirer • Saturday December 21, 2002 Satt 05:25 PM
mailto:
I fail to understand why the Israel government hasn't gotten tough with the Palestinian terrorists. If I were running the show I'd throw them out of the West Bank and the territories. Just clear out the terrorists and move them to Somalia or Iraq. An Arab free Israel would be a good thing, including all of Israel.

100% BS - Undiluted BS
by Bush Admirer • Saturday December 21, 2002 Satt 07:57 AM
mailto:
I read the above article several times carefully. It seems that each and every sentence is disinformation - untrue - and pure left wing radical propoganda.



Got it, Marc?
There is tons and tons of it!

Ignore Bush Admirer: DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!
by 000 • Wednesday November 20, 2002 Wedt 12:37 PM
mailto:
he is a troll. his sole purpose here is to insight a flame war as he did on the portland site and many others. if you look closely at the number of posts he comments on across the network, it is clear this is a full time job for him/her. it is not unreasonable to assume he is getting paid for this. regardless, you are wasting your time responding to his bullshit.
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

To Marc and Builder 123:
This cracks me up. I’m sorry it’s just too much hypocrisy to contain.
-However, I'd prefer that yuo try to refute some of these points and debate them.
Are you up to that? If so, I have yet to see it.-
Since we have these PAID detractors on this board the question of debate is a silly one, in that, once a honest debate is
initiated with these dedicated (I don’t call them trolls ) agents of
deliberate disruption and disinformation and points made that refute the premiss presented by these agents, they have a total
amnesia of these points and go back to their starting block of scripted propaganda. It is a tactic of constant debasement, groundless ridicule and hateful self-serving self aggrandizement that
serves to DISCOURAGE debate by creating an atmosphere of hostility typical of the most right wing forums towards progressive
ideas and sources they don’t find comfortable.
It’s what they do because it’s their job.

-agents of deliberate disruption and disinformation-

How about, ”ADDD”?

Not too “catchy”, but easy to spell.

Happy New Year!

Or how about PRADs ( Paid Rightwing Agents of Disruption) hmm?

Volunteers
Instructing
Anarchists,
Greens,
Revolutionairies, &
Activists

v.i.a.g....r.a.... viagra? oh viagra.. HAHA.... i get it. haha. for guys who want to have harder penises-- haha ha ha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa. like that guy.... BOB DOLE?.... what a sport, right? like he went on national tv saying how he can't get it up, wow, what a laid back guy.... but he was right on top of things with his viagra, frisky.... haha. i guess it makes the blood flow into the dick more or whatever.. wow, like then you can say "LOOK HOW hard my dick is now!".... gee that must really break a guys heart when his dick is all small and soft and he wants it to be BIG and HARD.. i wonder if sometimes they take viagra just so they can jerk off better or whatever.

ha haha ha

I saw this billboard the other day, for a strip club called like 'Gentleman's Soiree' or some shit like that.. and there's some funny lookin' lady (she looked really weird - she looked like a pissed off drag queen on a wednesday morning)... this sign said in big letters: "VIAGRA is For Sissies". hehe... yeah like I can't help wondering when I see stuff like that. haha.. like.... "if I had some viagra, I'd teach those 'Gentlemen' a lesson!!" haha--

no seriously though, I was just thinking like,,,,

here I am a big time politician in the U.S. of fuckin' A and these home boys are raggin' on me for taking VIAGRA when I'm looking at old wrinkly Lizzie baby over here and I know I can't get it up looking at that because my whole life I've been thinking about nothing but shaved legs and upright boobs and smooth pits and a full head of hair and ever since 1986 I've been keeping hip with the bikini-line trends and it's gotten to where everybody and LIzzie-poo herself knows I'd rather be checking out the little kids at 'Gentlemens Soiree' riding around on their over size trikes with their pom poms and full wax jobs... but no. here I am stuck trying to get Whitmanesque with the profound tree-trunk gnarls folds and wrinkles of my beloved wife's wise old bod. and that makes me a SISSY. a sissy because I'd rather try to rediscover my lost love than pay to stare at a naked girl who could be my grand daughter. and then take my heart medication and beat my meat to the hotel cable

but me, I'm not a slave to this depraved system, I'll buy a dozen roses and a bottle of wine and some viagra and we'll re-connect. I'll prove to the world I haven't forgotten how. I'll throw the corporate pedophilia out the window and open my heart to the one person who's been there the whole while. maybe it sounds gay but I'll look beyond "conventional beauty". I'll turn my back on the boys. I'll face my mate with dignity and equality and I'll have nothing to hide. we'll hold one another. they say every sunset is equally perfect and we'll prove it this evening. it's been a long time baby. it's been years. sometimes I wonder why we even hang out anymore. sometimes I look around at my friends.... people like Dick and George.... and I want to ask them how they cope....

sometimes I want to blow my fucking brains out.. sorry. you know, it's just when I think about my own youth,, nevermind.

tonight...after the goddamned party.... here we are.... and tonight's gonna be different.. tonight you thought our arm-in-arm exit was the usual charade..... no..... darling ..... tonight.....

I've got VIAGRA........

-Bob Dole

p.s. (help)

builder & sheep - I'm not blind (yet), and don't pretend to NOT see the numerous postings several individuals post. But there are several individuals (or are they several?) who do this, and while your listing was impressive, builder, and unfortunately familiar to read, I'm trying to elevate (for want of a better word) the quality of discussion by offering an out. Or at least the glimmer that we can move byond...
We could all sit here until we are blue in the face (and elsewhere...) listing the "virtues" of several IMC participants. If you guys want a gag real, start a new column under the header: FOLLIES; or CAUGHT IN THE ACT. Not to say that I'm high-brow, and don't appreciate a laugh. But a lot of the responses to some of the examples of these "sandbox attacks" has been to retort in kind. Next thing you know, an exceptionally off-the-topic comment comes in, and the whole thread loses steam. But not color!
Hell, I don't agree with much from the right. Usually I don't agree with everything from the left. I think most people fall somewhere in this are of undecided/undefined. Or shit, maybe just independent, and don't feel the need to have a "label."
Or as Samuel L. Jackson would say "...but I'm trying, Ringo, I'm trying REAL HARD to be the shepherd."

Happy New Year all.

We neeed to talk to use about using one of your images in The Indypendent, our monthly newspaper.

Please contact me as soon as possible. I could not find your email.

Regards, Lourdes

Oct29sep17@msn.com

got to run off to work, I'll post tonight.

No 'net access on the weekends (I'm a poor bastard on the low side of the economic stepping stone of success - HA!), but will remember to check this thread on Monday. - or forward to uber101turkey@netscape.net

see email, take care

Sorry, builder, didn't receive it. Try again, if you would. I'd love to see what's on your mind!