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View article without comments basic stats for US imperialismby cecil Monday, Nov. 25, 2002 at 4:18 PMa reference guide for activists. Basic Statistics for United States Imperialism
Contents:
1—list of interventions for “regime change”
a) OF and SE imply, necessarily, prior and continuing CO. b) OF = directly applied state terrorism by the United States repressive apparatus i.e. the Departments of War/Defense, Energy, Treasury, and State. N.B. the formation of the National Security Council (1947) and the Office of Homeland Security (2002). c) CO = reconnaissance, classical coups d’etat, legal harassment, disinformation (through media, legal, NGO, student, labor, and other front groups), bribery, sabotage, assassination, proxy warfare, running ratlines for fascist émigré groups, and assorted other clandestine activities. d) SE = a particular species of CO, comparatively non-violent, high plausible deniability, usually involves dumping tons of cash and campaign technologies into the hands of rightist groups during elections, sowing discord in leftist parties, buying up media space in order to destabilize electorates, tampering directly with ballot results, and hiring jackboots to actively threaten and brutalize voters in the last resort. NB many subverted elections are preceded by lengthy terror campaigns (e.g. Nicaragua, El Salvador, Yugoslavia, etc). It should go without saying that the following entries are simplified; only the major “payoff” year is listed, where applicable. Most attempted overthrows were preceded by lengthy preparations—vast right wing conspiracies, indeed. NB that this list remains under construction; new data will be added in the next installment. [Date – place (head of targeted state/candidate in subverted election; political affiliation): outcome (means)] The * indicates that I’m not clever enough to have found the absent data yet. Apologies. “Neutralist” refers to a given regime’s desire to avoid taking sides with either power bloc in the cold war. It should be readily apparent that such is an unforgivable sin against the foreign policy establishment in the United States. “Nationalist” refers to a given regime’s desire to nationalize foreign-owned means of production within its national boundaries. It should be readily apparent that such is an unforgivable sin against the foreign policy establishment in the United States.
1893 – Hawaii (Liliuokalani; monarchist): success (OF)
We should keep in mind that the goals of the imperialist in each of these instances are multiple: acquisition of access to local “markets” of all varieties; imposition of neoliberal policy; destruction of any potential alternative to the techno-fascist ruling order; provision of incentive for a sprawling parasitical and parastatal medical-intelligence-military-industrial complex (MIMIC); production of official “villains” for propaganda purposes; intimidation of non-combatants (as in the year 1945), and continuing political hegemony of the transnational elite based in DC. 2. Chronological list of US air warfare campaigns:
Japan (1943-45): conventional; incendiary; nuclear
3. Chronological list of US client states: [under construction]
1847 – Liberia: to present
4. Chronological list of states held in the manacles of debt-leverage imperialism:
N.B. these states are held in the thralldom of “odious debt” imposed upon them by (typically) quasi-fascistic regimes who 1) often enough were empowered via United States state terrorism and 2) accepted the terms of United States dominated Bretton Woods restructuring programs.
Many countries found themselves in dire monetary and fiscal straits in the early 1980s—after the Nixon shocks, the various oil embargoes, and the Volcker interest rate hikes. At this time of the debt crisis, the IMF and World Bank became “lenders of last resort” for regimes unable to meet balance of payments obligations to imperialist-controlled banks—but such lending comes with a cost: dismantle any and all policies that don’t adhere to the mystical mantras of neoliberalism (ie such policies as protectionism, capital regulation, state industry, wage control, labor and environmental regulation, resistance to currency devaluation, autochthonous/non-export production, etc had to go); such is the nature of the structural adjustment program (SAP).
Note further that these policies were the Reaganites’ answer to the “Crisis of Democracy” (as defined by the geniuses in the Trilateral Commission) that was occurring on a global scale and to the relative loss of US geopolitical power in the late 1970s. In order to disrupt the G-77, UNCTAD, and other international movements modeled on the success of OPEC, the debt crisis and its neoliberal response were engineered for the sake of ushering in a new world order of managed friggin’ chaos. It is good to recall that a number of countries that have refused SAP have been attacked (e.g., Serbia) and/or destabilized (e.g., Belarus). It is also prudent to realize that many an “ethnic,” “religious,” or otherwise vaguely described “civil” war has been caused directly by SAP (e.g., Somalia, Yugoslavia).
Moreover note that the meaning of “debt crisis” is that subjugated nations that were unable to meet balance of payments obligations to imperialist-controlled banks threatened the survival of such banks, and thus this privately held debt was transferred to public institutions, thereby socializing risk while insuring the sanctity of corporate profit. (I.e., “crisis” does not here refer to those horrors being inflicted on subjugated peoples.)
[Year of initial SAP implementation – nations]
1980 – Jamaica
1981 – Brazil; Mauritius; Uganda
1982 – Mexico; Ecuador; Bangladesh; Central African Republic; Argentina; Tanzania
1983 – Chile; Ghana; Kenya; Malawi; Niger; Somalia
1984 – Congo/Zaire; Mauritania; Senegal
1985 – Bolivia; Botswana; Costa Rica; Gambia; Guinea; Sao Tome
1986 – Madagascar; Nigeria; Philippines; Sierra Leone; Tunisia
1987 – Zambia; Algeria; Guinea-Bissau; Mozambique; Sudan; Yugoslavia
1988 – Equatorial Guinea; Guyana; Hungary; Pakistan; Sri Lanka
1989 – Cameroon; El Salvador; Jordan; Lesotho; Trinidad; Venezuela; Congo (RC); Togo
1990 – Colombia; Czech Republic; Nicaragua; Peru; Rwanda
1991 – Angola; Burkina Faso; Cote d’Ivoire; Egypt; Ethiopia; India; Romania; Zimbabwe
1992 – Latvia; Reunion; Ukraine; Belarus; Azerbaijan; Georgia; Armenia; Kazakhstan; Uzbekistan; Moldova
1993 – Benin; Gabon; Russia; S. Africa; Surinam
1994 – Eritrea; Cambodia; Haiti; Mali
1995 – Seychelles; Swaziland; Tajikistan
1996 – Bosnia-Herzegovina; Comoros; Uruguay
1997 – Bulgaria; Djibouti; Indonesia
1998 – Mongolia; Paraguay; S. Korea; Thailand; Yemen
1999 – Kosovo
5. Rough chronological list of foreign territories “hosting” US military installations. The range of years for each group attempts to indicate when the country in question first began its role as “host” for US military facilities. NB I’m still corroborating these. [under construction]
“Mahan Doctrine” group (1898-1904): Guam; Puerto Rico; Philippines; Cuba; Hawaii, Panama
“Monroe Doctrine-Crisis of Capital” group (1905-1935): Antarctica; Azores; Galapagos; Haiti; Liberia; Nicaragua; Samoa
“Welt Krieg” group (1939-1953): Antigua; Australia; Bahamas; Belgium; Bermuda; British Guiana; Burma; Denmark; France; Germany; Greece; Greenland; Iceland; Indonesia; Iran; Italy; Jamaica; Japan; Johnston Atoll; Korea; Marshall Islands; Midway Islands; Morocco; Netherlands; Newfoundland; New Zealand; Okinawa; Portugal; Spain; St. Lucia; Taiwan; Thailand; Trinidad; Turkey; United Kingdom; Vietnam
“Post-Monroe Doctrine-War on Drugs/Depopulation” group (1954-2002): Aruba, Bolivia; Brazil; Colombia; Costa Rica; DRC; Ecuador; El Salvador; Ghana; Guatemala; Honduras; Ivory Coast; Nigeria; Peru; Rwanda; Senegal
“Carter Doctrine” group (1978-1981): Bahrain; Diego Garcia; Egypt; Israel; Kenya; Oman; Somalia
“New World Order-Persian Gulf” group (1990-1991): Kuwait; Qatar; Saudi Arabia; UAE; Yemen
“New World Order-Balkans” group (1991-2001): Albania; Bosnia; Croatia; Hungary; Kosovo; Macedonia
“Afghanistan War/Caspian Basin” group (2000-2002): Afghanistan; Azerbaijan; Georgia; India; Kazakhstan; Kyrgyzstan; Pakistan; Tajikistan; Uzbekistan
6. Chronological list of US murder toll: [under construction]
The murder toll has been achieved by either direct violence (e.g. the firebombing and nuking of Japan or the firebombing of Dresden) or indirect/proxy “low intensity conflict” (e.g. Rwanda in the 90s or Nicaragua in the 80s). (I have not here accounted for the deaths attributable to SAP.) Some extremely conservative estimates—
Native Americans (1776-2002): 4M
We should also take note that the United States bears more than superficial responsibility for the Nazi Holocaust: e.g., the turning away of Jewish, Romani, and other refugees; funding the concentration camp system; underwriting the Third Reich’s military; delay in opening a western front; policies of appeasement before the war; siding with the fascists during the Spanish Civil War; turning down Stalin’s offer to attack Germany jointly in 1938; providing theoretical inspiration for lebensraum, final solutions, anti-communism, anti-Semitism, etc; rebuilding Germany after the war with the fascist infrastructure still intact; saving war criminals; general ideological support; and so forth.
7. Alphabetical list of rightwing dictators, reactionary movements, and other reprehensible figures empowered/materially supported by the US: [under construction] It seems as though the number one criterion for getting a job as the head of a client state is a willingness to butcher leftists. Indeed, the use of unsavory rightists by the United States began neither with the anti-Castro Cuban émigré community, nor with the Afghan mujaheddin alumni, oh Nelly no!
[the dates provided are sloppily done, I concede. At times, they are just the general duration of the given regime (e.g., Selassie). Most others are the duration of US support while the regime lasted (e.g., Hitler, Saddam Hussein, etc.)]
Abacha, Sani (Nigeria: 1993-2000)
other nasty nasties:
Nazi war criminals and collaborators knowingly rescued in the years after WW2 by US intelligence for use as covert assets against the USSR:
R. Gehlen; O. Skorzeny; A. Brunner; O. von Bolschwing; W. von Braun; M. Lebed; A. Vlasov; I. Docheff; K. Dragonovich; I. Bogolepov; C. Bolydreff; A. Berzins; H. Herwarth; K. Barbie; I. Demjanjuk; W. Dornberger; V. Hazners; B. Maikovskis; E. Laipenieks; N. Nazarenko; L. Pasztor; R. Ostrowsky; L. Kairys; P. Shandruk; T. Soobzokov; S. Stankievich; and literally thousands of others.
8. List of “international” bodies designed/employed/perverted by the United States: [under construction]
UN/ OECD/ WHO
9. Chronological list of interventions by the United States, with the purpose of opposing (or aiding opposition to) popular resistance movements—whether by means of overt force (OF) or covert operation (CO):
[Date – place (targeted movement): outcome (means)]
10. US as “isolationist” pre-1941? hahahahaha! DoS-confessed conflicts & interventions up to WW2 (NB other unconfessed exist—tracking them is the tricky part).
Contra major European powers—
France: 1798-1800, 1806-10
Contra minor powers, colonies, marginal states, non-European major powers—
Abyssina: 1903-4
Scanning the official public acknowledgment list here, we clearly see that the US had extreme paranoia about China, Mexico, Nicaragua, and Panama: Open Doors, “uncooperative” neighbors, and two potential canal zones. Also, check the rationale in the official Defense Dept. record for each of the above conflict dates. Many, many times, we have the “to protect US interests [or “nationals”] during a crisis” as the proposed justification. Caveat lector.
11. Noteworthy Covert Operations conducted by the United States. We should keep in mind that the dates given are the confessed dates of operation. In no way does this account for programs that continued to run after they were officially terminated, nor does it reckon with the same practices under different names—or no names at all. It should go without saying that this isn’t a complete listing.
Overcast (1945-46): OSS rescuing Nazi military scientists for US use
12. Prominent Front Organizations used to advance US imperialist interests:
Adolph Coors Foundation: rightist propaganda slush-fund
13. “Low intensity wars” conducted by the United States and its proxies (“medium intensity warfare” = direct and usually acknowledged involvement of US military apparatus; “high intensity warfare” = Dr. Strangelove stuff: “nuclear combat toe-to-toe with the Russkies,” &c).
The primary goal of low intensity conflict is to use proxies, intelligence, and special forces to destabilize a region and its official government. The purpose of destabilization is to achieve 1) access to resources amidst the chaos, 2) delegitimation of an “enemy” political/economic system, 3) influence over specific local groups, and 4) depopulation of regions inhabited by “untermenschen.”
All leftists should learn about low intensity warfare; it is by far and away one of the most disgusting and useful tools in the imperialist repertoire. Don’t let the words “low intensity” trick you: rivers are dammed with corpses and the fields are sown with the blood of the targeted nation.
1950s: Poland; Ukraine; Russia, China; Thailand; Burma
1960s: Congo; Vietnam; Laos; Cambodia; Thailand; Burma
1970s: Congo; Vietnam; Laos; Cambodia
1980s: Congo; Cambodia; Nicaragua; Afghanistan; Mozambique; Angola; Ethiopia; Yemen; Western Sahara
1990s: Congo; Cambodia; Afghanistan; Yugoslavia; Nigeria; Sierra Leone; Guinea-Bissau; Colombia; Liberia; Sudan; Central African Republic; Equatorial Guinea
14. Proxy Wars fought by the United States, which typically involves the use of clients, dupes, mercenaries, unofficial “volunteers,” and official, though disavowable, special forces. [under construction]
contra Soviet Union: stock-in-trade Cold War superpower jousting
contra France: after the Soviet Union ended all activities in Africa, the US began its bid to force French proxies out of North Africa.
contra Germany: during the 1990s, Germany and the US used multiple proxies to fight over control of the Balkans, with its precious “Corridor 8,” thereby ruining the entire region.
contra China: from Cold War crimes to New World Order harassment, the US has used many proxies against the Chinese: Thai, Tibetan, Burmese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Islamic, Taiwanese.
15. Foreign policy doctrines more or less practiced by the United States.
Monroe Doctrine – western hemisphere = US property; non-whites = untermenschen
McKinley Doctrine – Open Door Policy i.e., China, Pacific = potentially, possibly, most likely US property; non-whites = untermenschen
Roosevelt Corollary – western hemisphere = US property, and we mean it this time! non-whites = untermenschen
Taft Doctrine – Dollar Diplomacy i.e., western hemisphere = US property, and we mean economically, politically, and all other ways; the Middle East = potentially, possibly, most likely, US property
Wilson Doctrine – 14 Points internationalism (i.e., great powers should respect each other; to hell with the rest); western hemisphere = US property, and we really mean it this time! non-whites = untermenschen
Roosevelt Doctrine – “Good Neighbor Policy!” i.e., western hemisphere = US property, and we really really really fucking mean it.
Truman Doctrine – aid to fascists in Greece, Turkey, the Philippines, Korea, Vietnam, western Europe, Eastern Europe, North Africa, etc. i.e., what Kennan called “Containment.”
Eisenhower Doctrine – the Middle East = US property; non-whites = untermenschen; massive retaliation
Nixon Doctrine – enter neocolonialism: overthrowing governments, installing clients, using local elites to manage foreign populations for US advantage i.e., Asia, Africa, western hemisphere = US property, but we’re gonna try to be sneaky about it. Overall, see above.
Carter Doctrine – the Middle East = US property, and we aren’t kidding; trilateralism
Reagan Doctrine – “Rollback”; mutually assured destruction; low intensity warfare; support for rightwing Islamist groups, narcotics smuggling, etc.
Bush I Doctrine – New World Order; “What we say, goes.”
Clinton Doctrine – New World Order; “multilaterally if we can, unilaterally when we must.”
Bush II Doctrine – New World Order; “unilaterally when we can, multilaterally if we must.”
16. Noteworthy propaganda campaigns, hoaxes, and other lies qua casus belli utilized by the United States:
It is well known that German Fascists transformed their buffoonish leader, Hitler, from a national joke into der Fuhrer die Reich by means of a) securing moneys from large industrialists and financiers (they liked his extremely rightwing ideas on race, labor, religion, nationalism, capitalism, imperialism, etc) and b) by using multiple propaganda hoaxes in order to sway domestic opinion.
The Reichstag fire in 1933 allowed for Hitler to be proclaimed leader of the state as well as for the Night of the Long Knives the following year (violence against leftists) and all of the anti-jewish bullshit that came soon after. As we all know, the Reichstag was burned by fascist thugs and blamed on communists; they even got a disabled Dutch guy to “admit” to both arson and communism—smoking gun! woohoo!
In 1938, the Nazis claimed that they needed to perform a “humanitarian intervention” in the Sudetenland (in the modern Czech Republic) in order to stop “ethnic violence.” Of course, it was Nazi thugs carrying out the “ethnic violence” in the first place, but never mind that small detail.
In 1939, the fascists contrived Operation Canned Goods—a faked attack on a German border patrol, which was allegedly a surprise massacre, carried out by Polish military personnel. Evil Slavic Untermenschen Evildoer Terrorists! Too bad, however, that we now know those corpses in German uniform shown on Nazi TV to be dead Poles, kidnapped and murdered; the German public, though, went insane with jingoism, calling for invasions and genocide.
As we shall see, this is a technique learned by the Nazis from the masters of such things in the US (Hitler credited the development of the “Final Solution” to his study of US treatment of Native Americans), and something that was then perfected by the US after it recovered and reconciled with its mad dog Nazi assets during the Cold War.
The overall pattern is using irrelevant, misinterpreted, or completely fabricated events in order to convince all of the clarences (who had nothing to gain from militarism, but who were susceptible to jingoism, racism, ethnocentrism) that…war is a great fucking idea! NB that many of these propaganda hoaxes seem to be more effective now than they were when first produced. Also NB, these are the times that the state was forced, for whatever reasons, to consult with the public—either Congress or the people. Most US crimes are committed without recourse to either, or with only a general, vague acknowledgement: “Oh, that CIA is just protecting Freedom from Evil! We can’t tell you what they’re doing specifically, because that would compromise them to the Forces of Darkness!”
1775 – Britain: so it begins, and the story runs that Evildoer British imperialists took away Our Liberty, &c.; produced Evil Boston Massacres, Stamp Acts, Massachusetts Uprisings; and tried to import tea. While the British were certainly imperialistic, and tea is the mark of the ruling class in colonial times, we should take heed that the first offensive of the American War for Independence was a colonial invasion of Quebec. Huh? You mean, before they even signed the Declaration, the proto-United States was invading other countries? You bet. What’s at stake here is the Proclamation Line and the Quebec Act, both of which prevented the fledgling colonies from expanding. And be sure to recall that during the next US war, a conquest of Canada would again be attempted.
1812 – Britain: ah…tales of “naval impressments.” Too bad that this narrative, of war caused by US sailors being conscripted, like slaves, into the British privateering fleet, is a lie; too bad that the landowners all across the infant US wanted the British, French, Spanish, and natives off the continent so they could expand their holdings, import more slaves, and thereby make more money; too bad that plans for such expansion existed way before the declaration of hostilities. The keys here are Florida, the Caribbean, and the western frontier.
1846 – Mexico: the US is forced to retaliate against the Mexicans, since Mexican troops ruthlessly attacked US regiments, who just happened to be occupying slave-owning Texas. Why would the Evildoers in Mexico do that? Not, I hope, because Texas was part of Mexico? Not, I fear, because Mexicans were anti-slavery (abolished since 1829)? Not, I believe, because the US had aggressively assaulted Mexico multiple times already, including the original secessionist agitation in Texas? No, none of that matters; they’re just Evil.
1898 – Spain: the “Remember the Maine!” incident as well as Hearst newspapers proclaiming that Cuba needed a “humanitarian intervention”—both obvious lies—help sway people in the US to genocidal furor. Enter Empire, the subjugation of the people of Guam, Puerto Rico, and Cuba, and the Philippine genocide.
1917 – Central Powers: the Lusitania incident and the Zimmerman Telegram fire up US war fervor; too bad the Wilson administration provoked the Germans by aiding the British under a flag of “neutrality,” generated tons of anti-German racialist BS, and managed to invade every country in the Caribbean, including Mexico several times. Also, we needn’t forget that the Wilsonian declaration of War was timed perfectly with Lenin’s “April Theses.” All in the name of “protecting democracy,” from Evildoers, no doubt! An honest student of history will note that it’s more like “protecting certain segments of Kapital from others, whilst destroying genuine democratic resistance.”
1918 – USSR: “Communists eat babies!” “Bolsheviks seek to conquer world!’ “International Jewry grabs power in Russia!” “Reds to start war in India next!” “Socialism and incest: partners in Sin!” So ran the newspapers, every day, in every city, after Czarist absolutism was broken by popular resistance, no thanks to the US. Wilson’s administration used such imbecilic pretenses in a failed attempt to “strangle bolshevism in its cradle,” as one imperialist from a different genocidal nation put it. Of course, the real motives behind western intervention weren’t mentioned: Capital Capital Capital Capital.
1941 – Axis Powers: the Pearl Harbor attack was known in advance, no matter how “sudden” or how much “infamy” Roosevelt would later claim for it. NB FDR’s well-planned provocation strategy to ensure that Japan would attack the US, thus allowing the US to dictate terms to the rest of the world, which would be destroyed by war’s end. NB that the overrated Operation Overlord was delayed just long enough for the Soviet Union to be shattered by Kapital’s mad dog Hitler, but just timely enough to prevent the Soviets from taking out all of the fascists in Europe, from the Volga to Gibraltar.
1945 – Japan: event—nukes; propaganda lie—“saving Japanese and American lives”; bitter truth—self-serving genocide and terrorism to intimidate Stalin. Only assholes can believe the US story here.
1950 – DPRK: despite claims that “the Totalitarian North ruthlessly invaded the Free South,” it looks as though a communist North reacted to a long series of provocations carried out by a fascistic South, which included border skirmishes, coordinated raids, and artillery battery. But who cares? America to the rescue! Of fascism!
1952 – East Germany: despite Soviet attempts to get out of Berlin, requiring only assurances from the US that Germany would be a) democratic, b) demilitarized, c) united, and d) neutral, the US insisted on the precarious, ignorant status quo, obviously preferring it to the just Soviet proposal. Up, then, went the Berlin Wall in 1961, which was called an act of tyranny by moronic US commentators, but was intended by the Soviet Union to keep fascists, CIA operatives, saboteurs, assassins, and other agents of Kapital away. This event is largely responsible for much escalation of the Cold War during 50s, which would predictably and wrongly be blamed on the USSR.
1953 – Iran: Commies are gonna get us! Or so it was said by flag-waving retards. The unfortunate truth: a democratic regime thought it was allowed to use its own resources for its own benefit. The US disagreed with Mossadegh.
1954 – Guatemala: Commies are gonna get us! Or so it was said by flag-waving retards. The unfortunate truth: a democratic regime thought it was allowed to use its own resources for its own benefit. The US disagreed with Arbenz.
1964 – Vietnam: the USS Maddox got hit by some lightning, but LBJ thought it’d be a good idea to bow before the banking cartels, the Seven Sisters, the Pentagon, and crusty McCarthyoids, thereby inventing the notion that the (repeat the old script) Red North ruthlessly invaded the Free South—or, at least they ruthlessly attacked an innocent US naval vessel in international waters. Turns out that there was no attack, that the ship was in Hanoi’s waters, and was not-at-all-innocently deploying special forces and other anti-communist swine into the North for the normal roster of Kapitalist Karnage.
1973 – Chile: Commies are gonna get us! Or so it was said by flag-waving retards. The unfortunate truth: a democratic regime thought it was allowed to use its own resources for its own benefit. The US disagreed with Allende.
1981 – Nicaragua: Commies are gonna get us! Or so it was said by flag-waving retards. The unfortunate truth:
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Incredible !!by Mauricio Tuesday, Nov. 26, 2002 at 3:42 PMmbmaciel@ig.com.br This text is incredible !!! I got to translate it to my language.
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querryby Sheepdog Tuesday, Nov. 26, 2002 at 8:38 PMWho is "us" and who are "you"?
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wowby . Tuesday, Nov. 26, 2002 at 9:04 PMi'm flabbergasted. if this is for real it's the most extensive such list i've seen yet. thanks very much for posting it. where can i find more like it? where is it from?
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Andby Sheepdog Tuesday, Nov. 26, 2002 at 9:10 PMDamn thorough dig, cecil.
Much thanks!
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clipped off before biblioby plenty Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002 at 7:18 AMhi cecil,
you rock! thanks! by the way, the info seems to have been clipped off at item 16. can you post the rest, including Bibliography and Links? muchas gracias amigo.
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Simpleby Simple Simon Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002 at 9:04 AMLet me, off the top of my head, just grab a little bit out of this bucket of excrement, and hold it up to the air:
“1945 – Japan: event—nukes; propaganda lie—“saving Japanese and American lives”; bitter truth—self-serving genocide and terrorism to intimidate Stalin. Only assholes can believe the US story here. “ Count me among the assholes. The fact remains that there was a war on. The fact remains that the Japanese started the war. The fact remains that the Japanese became more fanatical the closer our forces came to their mainland. The fact remains that casualty estimates for the invasion of Japan (Operation Olympic) were in the tens of thousands. Even if we could have invaded and only lost one thousand, or one hundred, or ten, that would be too many. The invasion was made unnecessary, and American lives (and Japanese lives) were saved. The decision to drop the atomic bombs was the right one. It brought the war to an end. “1950 – DPRK: despite claims that “the Totalitarian North ruthlessly invaded the Free South,” it looks as though a communist North reacted to a long series of provocations carried out by a fascistic South, which included border skirmishes, coordinated raids, and artillery battery. But who cares? America to the rescue! Of fascism! “ What excrement. If I understand you, you are saying that the United States and South Korea intentionally provoked the Korean War. For what, pray tell? You are aware that the North Koreans, armed with the latest in Soviet Russian armor and weapons invaded the South and quickly routed the South’s army and the paltry force of American units available? Ever heard of the Pusan perimeter? What did the Americans gain by having their client country invaded, and having the war fought exclusively in the South for the next three years? Better break out your thinking cap, junior. “1952 – East Germany: despite Soviet attempts to get out of Berlin, requiring only assurances from the US that Germany would be a) democratic, b) demilitarized, c) united, and d) neutral, the US insisted on the precarious, ignorant status quo, obviously preferring it to the just Soviet proposal. Up, then, went the Berlin Wall in 1961, which was called an act of tyranny by moronic US commentators, but was intended by the Soviet Union to keep fascists, CIA operatives, saboteurs, assassins, and other agents of Kapital away. This event is largely responsible for much escalation of the Cold War during 50s, which would predictably and wrongly be blamed on the USSR. “ Let me get this straight. You believe that the Soviets wanted ‘to get out of Berlin’. What, pray tell oh wise historian, was the blockade of Berlin BY THE SOVIETS all about, then? Frat prank? April fools joke? And the Wall, ah yes. Constructed to keep blah, blah, blah. Strange, in the entire history of the wall I haven’t heard of anyone attempting to jump it heading EAST. Yet thousands came WEST. And remember when the Wall came down? Who was excited? Was this excitement due to the opportunity to fraternize with fascists, CIA operatives, saboteurs, assassins, and other agents of Kapital? You grasp of history is pitiable. 6. Chronological list of US murder toll: Perhaps the best part of your manifesto, but I have a few comments/ questions: Native Americans (1776-2002): 4M ? Seems an awfully high estimate. West Africans (1776-1865): 4M ? The deaths of all slaves are to be laid at the feet of the American government? The American government never owned a single slave. American Slaveowners did. Furthermore, the American government fought a bloody war to end the practice of slavery. I can’t remember when any other country has done so. Philippines (1898-1904): 600K Spanish American War and Suppression of Moro Guerrillas. Germany (1945): 200K World War II. Are you suggesting that the British bombing of Dresden is America’s fault? Japan (1945): 900K World War II. You are aware there was a war on. Oh, and who started it? China (1945-60): 200K ? Would you be including Chinese ‘volunteers’ who attacked U.S. troops in Korea? Greece (1947-49): 100K ? Seems an awfully high estimate. U.S. supports anti-communist effort. Korea (1951-53): 2M ? All casualties of the Korean War are to be laid at America’s feet? Guatemala (1954-2002): 300K ? Seems an awfully high estimate. U.S. supports anti-communist effort. Vietnam (1960-75): 2M ? All casualties of the Vietnam War are to be laid at America’s feet? Laos (1965-73): 500K ? Communist takeover of Laos and Vietnam War Cambodia (1969-75): 1M ? Are you referring to those killed in the killing fields by Communists? Or are your numbers inflated? Indonesia (1965): 500K ? Seems a high estimate. Colombia (1966-2002): 500K ? Did the FARC and any other Communist entity ever kill anyone in Colombia? Oman (1970): 10K Bangladesh (1971): 2M ? The war between India and Pakistan is our fault? Right. Gotcha. Uganda (1971-1979): 200K Idi Amin was our boy? Really. Fascinating. Chile (1973-1990): 20K Pinochet eradicates Communists. Guilty as charged. East Timor (1975): 200K Would this be the same Christian East Timor that has been terrorized by Islamist Indonesia? Angola (1975-2002): 1.5M Communists seize power in Angola and export revolution. Guilty as charged. Argentina (1976-1979): 30K ? You got me on that one. Afghanistan (1978-2002): 1M ? All the casualties from the Soviet Invasion to the removal of the Taliban are to be laid at America’s feet? El Salvador (1980-95): 100K Counterterrrorism. Anti-Communism. Estimate is high. Nicaragua (1980-90): 100K Removal of Communist government from Nicaragua. Estimate is high Mozambique (1981-1988): 1M ? You got me on that one. Turkey (1984-2002): 50K ? Rwanda (1990-1996): 1M ? Would this be the Rwanda where Tutsis and Hutus are hacking themselves to death? Our fault? OK. Iraq (1991-2002): 1M ? Gulf War started by… Somalia (1991-1994): 300K ? You really are full of crap. The only reason the U.S. military was in Somalia in the first place was to ensure delivery of US-provided food aid. Are the victims of hunger to be laid at America’s feet? Yugoslavia (1991-2002): 300K ? Slobodan Milosevic had nothing to do with this? Liberia (1992-2002): 150K ? Drug-addled Marxists shooting and hacking to death other drug-addled Marxists is America’s fault? Burundi (1993-1999): 200K ? Sudan (1998): 100K ? This wouldn’t be the Sudan where the Islamic Government enslaves and routinely massacres the Anamists living in the south, would it? And this is America’s fault? Congo (1998-2002): 3M ? Marxist thugs overthrow a thuggish Marxist. And this is America’s fault?
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on top of your head?by . Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002 at 10:45 AMyou have a bucket of excrement on top of your head?
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excrement on head. heh.by cecil Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002 at 3:14 PMyou say:
“1945 – Japan: event—nukes; propaganda lie—“saving Japanese and American lives”; bitter truth—self-serving genocide and terrorism to intimidate Stalin. Only assholes can believe the US story here. “ Count me among the assholes. The fact remains that there was a war on. The fact remains that the Japanese started the war. The fact remains that the Japanese became more fanatical the closer our cecil: as though the us militayr didnt become more fanatical? havent you read the various official statements about ending the "yellow race"? come on. and who cares who "started" it? you speak as though the us didnt manipulate the situation and provoke an attack. time for some research, methinks. you say: forces came to their mainland. The fact remains that casualty estimates for the invasion of Japan (Operation Olympic) were in the tens of thousands. cecil: at least youre honest here in that official war dept estimates were only in the tens of thousands, rather than hundreds of thousands. but you are dishonest in asserting that an invasion wouldve been necessary. the war dept also notes that the invasion would be unnecessary because japan wouldve surrendered anyway before it, or before the nukes. you say: Even if we could have invaded and only lost one thousand, or one hundred, or ten, that would be too many. The invasion was made unnecessary, and American lives (and Japanese lives) were saved. The decision to drop the atomic bombs was the right one. It brought the war to an end. ceci: you need to do your homework; this is the propaganda story. the invasion and nukes were unnecessary, and the nukes were directed entirely at civilians. since when does the us pride itself on slaughtering kids? you say: “1950 – DPRK: despite claims that “the Totalitarian North ruthlessly invaded the Free South,” it looks as though a communist North reacted to a long series of provocations carried out by a fascistic South, which included border skirmishes, coordinated raids, and artillery battery. But who cares? America to the rescue! Of fascism! “ What excrement. If I understand you, you are saying that the United States and South Korea intentionally provoked the Korean War. For what, pray tell? You are aware that the North Koreans, armed with the latest in Soviet Russian armor and weapons invaded the South and quickly routed the South’s army and the paltry force of American units available? Ever heard of the Pusan perimeter? What did the Americans gain by having their client country invaded, and having the war fought exclusively in the South for the next three years? Better break out your thinking cap, junior. cecil: i dint say that the us provoked the war. i said that the north and the south had been fighting on and off for a long time, each backed by rival power blocs of t he cold war. i merely say that the official us story is garbage. and yes, the pusan perimeter with good ol general walker is great storybook material, but irrelevant in regards to the beginnings of the conflict. pay attention for christs sake! quit putting words in my mouth and read the friggin text more carefully. you say: “1952 – East Germany: despite Soviet attempts to get out of Berlin, requiring only assurances from the US that Germany would be a) democratic, b) demilitarized, c) united, and d) neutral, the US insisted on the precarious, ignorant status quo, obviously preferring it to the just Soviet proposal. Up, then, went the Berlin Wall in 1961, which was called an act of tyranny by moronic US commentators, but was intended by the Soviet Union to keep fascists, CIA operatives, saboteurs, assassins, and other agents of Kapital away. This event is largely responsible for much escalation of the Cold War during 50s, which would predictably and wrongly be blamed on the USSR. “ Let me get this straight. You believe that the Soviets wanted ‘to get out of Berlin’. What, pray tell oh wise historian, was the blockade of Berlin BY THE SOVIETS all about, then? Frat prank? April fools joke? And the Wall, ah yes. Constructed to keep blah, blah, blah. Strange, in the entire history of the wall I haven’t heard of anyone attempting to jump it heading EAST. Yet thousands came WEST. And remember when the Wall came down? Who was excited? Was this excitement due to the opportunity to fraternize with fascists, CIA operatives, saboteurs, assassins, and other agents of Kapital? You grasp of history is pitiable. cecil: your mix of simplistic propaganda, ignorance of the details of history, and ad hominem assault is a fine one, by typical us standards. however, it avoids the point. YES, the soviets wanted out of berlin. the berlin blockade and reulting airlift was the soviet attempt to test the west's intentions, and they learned, yes indeed. and sure, it was a way to keep defectors in, especially high level, sensitive ones. im not saying the soviet rule in occupied berlin was just; i am saying that berlin was a site of us infiltration of the ussr. ever heard of bloodstone? or is your history so schematic as to ignore the record and rely on political myth? further, the excitement by east germans at the end of the cold war is ahrdly indicative of soviet intentions in 1952. sheesh. talk about a red herring. you say: 6. Chronological list of US murder toll: Perhaps the best part of your manifesto, but I have a few comments/ questions: Native Americans (1776-2002): 4M ? Seems an awfully high estimate. cecil: in over 200 years, this is high? with anywhere between 10 and 20 million original inhabitants, a paltry 4 million is high? wtf? you say: West Africans (1776-1865): 4M ? The deaths of all slaves are to be laid at the feet of the American government? The American government never owned a single slave. American Slaveowners did. Furthermore, the American government fought a bloody war to end the practice of slavery. I can’t remember when any other country has done so. cecil: the us govt never allowed slave imports? never made laws to protect slaveowners "rights"? never used its military to enforce slavery--not in 1812, in the 1840s, during all of jackson's florida campaigns? are ye mad? and you speak as though no govt official personally owned slaves--as though most of them didnt. quit lying. and the notion that the civil war was fought specifically to end slavery is wishful thinking at best, considering the economics of the war and licoln's actions vis a vis the emancipation proclamation and his own evident racism during the lincoln-douglas debates. you say: Philippines (1898-1904): 600K Spanish American War and Suppression of Moro Guerrillas. cecil: right. outright imperialism. glad you don't disagree. you say: Germany (1945): 200K World War II. Are you suggesting that the British bombing of Dresden is America’s fault? cecil: uhh, us planes took part in the destruction of dresden, dolt. us planes even returned to strafe emergency rescue crews. grow up already. you say: Japan (1945): 900K World War II. You are aware there was a war on. Oh, and who started it? cecil: irrelevant who started it. and im talking civilian deaths during the various firebombings and nukes. obviously war crimes. you say: China (1945-60): 200K ? Would you be including Chinese ‘volunteers’ who attacked U.S. troops in Korea? cecil: gimme a break. im talking about us covert actions within china itself. if you dont know about that, then i dont know where to begin. you say: Greece (1947-49): 100K ? Seems an awfully high estimate. U.S. supports anti-communist effort. cecil: prove that it's high then. i can prove that it's not. and in supporting the anti-communist effort, the us used monarchists, nazi-collaborators, and various other unsavories. you say: Korea (1951-53): 2M ? All casualties of the Korean War are to be laid at America’s feet? cecil: all those that result from us bombings of civilians and of propping up the fascist govt there, yes. you say: Guatemala (1954-2002): 300K ? Seems an awfully high estimate. U.S. supports anti-communist effort. cecil: hardly high. it's a conservative estimate. and arbenz wasnt a communist. you say: Vietnam (1960-75): 2M ? All casualties of the Vietnam War are to be laid at America’s feet? cecil: all those that come from us bombings, biochem weapons, sanctions, and propping up the rightist regimes of the south, yes. whats so problematic with that? you say: Laos (1965-73): 500K ? Communist takeover of Laos and Vietnam War cecil: right, but hardly a justification. the us neednt have bombed laos and conducted covert prox war there. you say: Cambodia (1969-75): 1M ? Are you referring to those killed in the killing fields by Communists? Or are your numbers inflated? cecil: the rise of pol pot was caused by us bombings and he was supported by the us after 1979. but also the us bombings and proxy wars are counted here. you say: Indonesia (1965): 500K ? Seems a high estimate. cecil: whatfuckingever! most estimates run as high as one million--this was one of the most intense genocides ever produced, since it happened in less than a year. you say: Colombia (1966-2002): 500K ? Did the FARC and any other Communist entity ever kill anyone in Colombia? cecil: surely, but im talking about us supported death squads and paramilitaries. if farc kills some neofascists while defending themselves, is this a problem? or should the us support fascists? you say: Bangladesh (1971): 2M ? The war between India and Pakistan is our fault? Right. Gotcha. cecil: considering that pakistan is a us client state at the time, surely. considering that the us armed, funded, trained, and apporved of pakistan's activities in bengal, most definitely. do some research, goddammit! you say: Uganda (1971-1979): 200K Idi Amin was our boy? Really. Fascinating. cecil: you need to research this stuff, rather than relying upon propaganda myths. of course idi amin was a us client--he was funded and armed, his army trained and directed by the us in order to destabilize central africa and be a solid anti-commie force. you really do need to learn some geopolitics. you say: Chile (1973-1990): 20K Pinochet eradicates Communists. Guilty as charged. cecil: glad to see that dont deny this one. you say: East Timor (1975): 200K Would this be the same Christian East Timor that has been terrorized by Islamist Indonesia? cecil: uhhh, suharto was a us client, and the east timor actions were directed by the us cmon now. either youre being disingenuous, or you just dont know anything about world history. you say: Angola (1975-2002): 1.5M Communists seize power in Angola and export revolution. Guilty as charged. cecil: glad to see you coming to your senses. god forbid that some socialists get a chance to run their countires without outside interference. you say: Argentina (1976-1979): 30K ? You got me on that one. cecil: never heard of the dirty war, funded and directed by the us? you say: Afghanistan (1978-2002): 1M ? All the casualties from the Soviet Invasion to the removal of the Taliban are to be laid at America’s feet? cecil: considering where afghanistan would be today had there been no us interference? yes. without doubt. you say: El Salvador (1980-95): 100K Counterterrrorism. Anti-Communism. Estimate is high. cecil: hardly. thats a conservative estimate for 15 years. no terrorism here, and hardly any communism. mostly self-determination/anti-colonialism. you say: Nicaragua (1980-90): 100K Removal of Communist government from Nicaragua. Estimate is high cecil: lying for capital again? again, a conservative estimate from a decade's worth of slaughter. and just why isnt it a crime for the us to "remove" govts that it doesnt like? why cant the nicaraguans self-dtermine? you say: Mozambique (1981-1988): 1M ? You got me on that one. cecil: never heard of the proxy war waged by the us and south africa against the leftist govt in mozambique? time to hit the books. you say: Turkey (1984-2002): 50K ? cecil: us supports turkish slaughter of kurds. well documented. i suggest you research it. you say: Rwanda (1990-1996): 1M ? Would this be the Rwanda where Tutsis and Hutus are hacking themselves to death? Our fault? OK. cecil: never heard of us instigation of the central african genocides? again, well documented is the presence of us special forces in the region, training, firing up neofascistic hatreds, arming militants, etc. you say: Iraq (1991-2002): 1M ? Gulf War started by… cecil: you know that youre simplifying this. the us gave the green light to iraq's invasion, an invasion that wouldve been carried out by the us if it had been in the same reltion with kuwait. time to learn something about this conflict, rather than blindly accept the propaganda lies. and do one million iraqi civilians need to die for saddam's admittedly criminal actions, even if such actions werent approved of ahead of time, armed and funded ahead of time by the us? you say: Somalia (1991-1994): 300K ? You really are full of crap. The only reason the U.S. military was in Somalia in the first place was to ensure delivery of US-provided food aid. Are the victims of hunger to be laid at America’s feet? cecil: yep. you need to learn about the politics of food. you need to learn about the true reasons for the us presence in somalia, and the true role carried out there by us forces. such things are briefly mentioned in my list, but you ignore them, as is typical. you say: Yugoslavia (1991-2002): 300K ? Slobodan Milosevic had nothing to do with this? cecil: little in comparison to the us role, which included sowing fascistic propaganda in the former yugoslavia in order to stoke racist separatism, cleansing sebrs from krajina, using mercenary forces like mpri and special forces to destabilize the region, using armed islamic insurgents from ahem other areas of the world to aid the kla, and mandating via the us congress that yugoslaviua needs to break up, lest it get no more loans, trade, etc. you say: Liberia (1992-2002): 150K ? Drug-addled Marxists shooting and hacking to death other drug-addled Marxists is America’s fault? cecil: not much in the way of marxists here. perhaps you should the role of us special forces in west africa, cia activity, and oil politics? you say: Burundi (1993-1999): 200K ? cecil: uhh, same as the rwanda entry. you say: Sudan (1998): 100K ? This wouldn’t be the Sudan where the Islamic Government enslaves and routinely massacres the Anamists living in the south, would it? And this is America’s fault? cecil: yep. us covert activities again, but mainly the cruise missile attacks against the el shifa pharmaceutical plant, which was supplying half the country's medicines during an epidemic. you cant be this blind to history. you say: Congo (1998-2002): 3M ? Marxist thugs overthrow a thuggish Marxist. And this is America’s fault? cecil: about the most ignorant entry in your co8unter-list. yes, the us supported mobutu, then kabila, and had both overthrown. that's what you do to your clients when they displease--you get rid of them. you need to get some analytical concepts through your head besides the cliches of neorealism. ie the leader doesnt equal the citizenry, nor does either equal the country or the state. whats going on here is low intensity conflict, caused by us special forces and covert intelligence agencies. you really do need to research it, rather than mock the data with childish sarcasm.
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Simpleby Simple Simon Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002 at 4:00 PMCecil I really don't know where to begin with you. You have blamed the United States for virtually all deaths, worldwide, since 1776. I am fascinated that you continue to live in such a murderous country. For your own safety I suggest you leave.
Your manifesto is full of factual errors. Your answers to questions on the Wall, the Korean conflict and the United States & slavery are all paper-thin and easily refuted. Your 'scholarship' is a joke. In conclusion, we already know you hate our country. You can just admit it without fabricating justification.
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.by . Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002 at 4:17 PMcan somebody fix the margins?
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Simpleby Simple Simon Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002 at 4:27 PMI wish they would. It's driving me nuts.
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simpletons, &cby cecil Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002 at 7:58 PMfor fucks sake, i never said that i blamed the us for all deaths since 1776. please cease putting words in my mouth--which is itself a sign of poor scholarship.
nb that i never intended this a piece of serious scholarship; it is a "reference guide for activists," as clearly noted in the abstract. you need to read more carefully. in academic terms, this is a tertiary source, like an encyclopedia. but i wont bother ya with notions that might crack your crash helmet. your job, however, is to prove the existence of these factual errors, not merely ridicule and dismiss, unless of course you want to reveal yourself as empty-handed here. as far as hating the united states--kinda irrelevant, aint it? i do not appreciate us foreign policy, and i certainly have no affinity for reichtards who mindlessly defend the crimes of the united states. and moving away? uhhh...are you that stupid? or did you not read the post? us foreign policy is much more brutal than its domestic policy; ill stay here until the domestic policy becomes worse.
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a lesson...by cecil Thursday, Nov. 28, 2002 at 1:31 PM...on argument technique.
threats, whether implicit or explicit, in an argument are known as the argumentum ad baculum fallacy ie arguing by means of the cudgel. recommendations that a critic of us policy physically leave the country (or else!) typically fall within this category of fallacy. as such, it constitutes an admission of defeat on the part of the fallacy-user. so, i humbly accept the two most recent concessions; much appreciated that youve acknowledged your inadequacies here. however, bush admirier, you didnt read my last post, which clearly explains why a critic of the us would wish to remain in the us. please read more carefully in the future. also, keep in mind that country of residence is irrelevant in this debate; all that matters is the data on us crimes. to examine this data is patriotic some say. and in no place during the course of my list do i use the words "great satan." such concepts are rightist, much like bush's facile "axis of evil." leftists need only material evidence, not bogeyman and hobgoblins from the world's silly mysticisms, like christianity or islam.
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Reichtards: You go nowby Baphomet Saturday, Nov. 30, 2002 at 11:32 AMTo Simple Simon, BA, et al,
Please, I mean really. If you love US foreign policy so much why don't you go live in one of their wonderful client states. I suggest Columbia. You see, then you could join a right wing death squad and kill unionists, I mean actually walk your talk. You never, ever refute anything. Your statements are riddled with veiled, cowardly threats. Go to Guatemal and El Salvador. See what it's like to live in a country that has been turned into a living hell by US policies. Or maybe the Bushies will turn on you soon and bite you on the ass. Maybe someone you know, or love, or a family member will disappear and turn up in field hacked to bits by a right wing death squad. As you continue to support these thugs, they continue to dismantle the very guarantees that protect us from this sort of thing. Which makes you and your type the worst sort of cretin. The Bushies are not above mass murder of little brown people, at all. And I guess neither are you. I mean think about: El Salvador, 100,000 dead in a country of 7 million? Guatemala, 500,000 dead in a country of 9 million? Both aided and abetted by our government. How can that not sicken you? The fact is, you and your type have no fucking clue that this even happened. Your thoroughly washed mind immediately double thinks anything that is outside of the state's line, rather than seek out the evidence for yourself. I imagine your washed mind is horrified and astounded by the extent of Cecil's not at all controversial (outside of the US) list. It's plain knowledge. In fact, much of it is from declassified government documents. Of course, you and the Bushies want to make the government even less transparent and more Stalinist secretive, so kiss FOIA goodbye. Yep, you're a collection of brown shirted cretins. Please, do our democracy (what is left of it) a favor and move somewhere that you aren't allowed to question the government. How about Iraq? Then you could strut around defending and worshipping the leader there. Regurgitate the state propoganda. Maybe you could even get a nice nifty uniform. You could turn in any dissenters to the secret police and have them disappeared. Wouldn't that be fun?
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Thanks, 'Baphomet' and Cecilby lynx-11 Saturday, Nov. 30, 2002 at 8:11 PMexcellent work, Cecil. that someone messed up the margins should be understood as a compliment to you. i think the IMC will fix the margins eventually
anybody who is interested in the 'American Holocaust' - check out the work of William Blum, especially his book, Killing Hope, U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II. For the earlier history that established this momentum, check out David Stannard's work, especially "American Holocaust".
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Prove itby Baphomet Wednesday, Dec. 04, 2002 at 3:25 PMRefute it Bush Fucker. You can't.
As usual, all you can do is mock. Some day the truth will sink in. I'd love to be there when your bull shit bubble pops and you end up sucking on an exhaust pipe. See you in hell.
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court-appointed glamourby fascio Wednesday, Dec. 04, 2002 at 4:11 PM> The 'Bushies' are trying to PROTECT our rights
> and freedoms--not take them away!! ========================================== "Dear Ken: Don't think that I am going to be taken to an insane asylum nor that the world is coming to an end. This is not so, and I must object very sincerely if the fact of my sitting down again after only several months write a letter to you gives you such impressions. The reason for this outstanding event is much rather the hotheaded criticism about Hitler and his Government which you gave us in your recent letter to Ruth, and which indeed surprised me very much. However, before giving you my point of view on the new turn that has taken place in Germany I should like to ask you to in the first place do me the favour of keeping your shirt on, otherwise it is you who is making "an ass of himself". One should never speak the language of a truckdriver, no matter how much one likes it. Now, don't be mad, but calm down. You did not hurt Ruth's or my feelings at all, but there are two reasons why I feel I should answer you. The first reason is that your remarks are very unfair to Hitler and his new Government, and the other is that I intend to do my share in preventing the American generation to which you belong to be equally as ignorant as the generation of the whole world was which tumbled into the last war. What makes you believe and in such a definite way state that we are unable to see the things as they are, since, as you write, we are hypnotized by Hitler? --August 7, 1933 http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/schotte.htm ========================================== glam·our also glam·or ( P ) Pronunciation Key (glmr) n. 1) An air of compelling charm, romance, and **excitement**, especially when DELUSIVELY alluring. 2) Archaic. A magic spell; enchantment.
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the rest of the friggin listby cecil Wednesday, Dec. 04, 2002 at 8:37 PMas requested, here is the rest, bibliographic stuff included.
1981 – Nicaragua: Commies are gonna get us! Or so it was said by flag-waving retards. The unfortunate truth: a democratic regime thought it was allowed to use its own resources for its own benefit. The US disagreed with Ortega. 1983 – Grenada: Commies are gonna get us! Or so it was said by flag-waving retards. The unfortunate truth: a democratic regime thought it was allowed to use its own resources for its own benefit. The US disagreed with Bishop. 1986 – Libya: Evil Terrorist Nation! Quit doing Terrorist things! We will bomb you! Turns out that the Libyans weren’t responsible, after all, for the acts of “terror” of which they’d been accused. Hmm…a high publicity bombing mission right in the middle of the Iran-Contra Affair? What a coincidence! And at a time when Gorbachev was making peaceful overtures and the US was in danger of having no enemies? Amazingly coincidental! 1989 – Panama: They said that Noriega was an Evildoer Drugdealer! You must go Evil Doper! USA All The Way! Humanitarian Intervention! We should mention that Noriega was attempting to institute some democratic reforms and social services, had been a CIA asset, and largely oversaw US drug smuggling—and could document his and US involvement in the Iran-Contra Affair. But why trouble anyone with the facts? Especially the fact that the true meaning of the words “Operation Just Cause” is that US Delta Force teams secretly attacked US Army units so that the US could claim “Panamanian terrorists are shooting us!” 1991 – Kuwait: the famous “dead babies” hoax, which was revealed to be a lie. Other tidbits: Kuwait had provoked Iraq in numerous ways; Iraq got approval from its imperial master, the US, before invading; Bush had personal investments in the region; and US strategy had long called for a way to control the Gulf States directly. With the USSR gone and the Kuwait-Iraq border dispute, the US now had both pretext and opportunity. 1992 – Bosnia: never mind all of the dead Serbs. Instead, check out this photo! The Evil Serb Evildoers have Evilly put some guy in a concentration camp at Trnopolje! Look at the barbed wire! Look at how starved he is! Oh…wait a minute…looks like that the barbed wire is around someone’s shed, that the photographer is in the shed, that the starving guy is a refugee on the outside of the barbed fence, that the headline “Belsen 92” is a lie, that there were no concentration camps, and that the entire series of US operations in the early 1990s were resurrected Nazi policies on Yugoslavia, which still maintained some socialistic economic policies. Well, I’ll be damned: another “humanitarian intervention” for Kapitalism. 1993 – Somalia: Yet another “Humanitarian intervention!” Thing is, the famine was nearly over, the US wasn’t anywhere near where it had been, the Somalis already hated the US for thrusting Barre on them, and the US was only there now for 1) oil prospecting, 2) uranium mining, 3) military basing, 4) public relations, and 5) a “paid advertisement” for the Pentagon, in Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Colin Powell’s cynical phrase.. 1998 – Sudan: Evil terrorists are making VX nerve gas in that big factory! Tomahawk it! Turns out, though, that the plant manufactured antibiotics for half the country. Given that the Sudan was in the midst of a disease crisis, the destruction of their medical infrastructure only served to exacerbate the problem. How many died as a result? Who knows—the US, as is typical, doesn’t care to investigate, apologize, or acknowledge. 1999 – Kosovo: “Humanitarian intervention!” Now for something completely different. Racak, Srebrenica, Izbica, Trepca—all more complicated than they seem, as according to numerous international organizations, the FBI, and so on. Ethnic cleansing? Only if we are talking about the cleansing of Serbs by NATO. And the banner hoax here: the “Serbian MIG,” allegedly attacking civilians, is revealed as a fraud in state-press photos, which obviously display English writing on the alleged fuselage. 2001 – Afghanistan: Evil Terrorists got us! We will get them back! Of course, the true story is much more complicated, involving US complicity, deception, and strategic planning at all levels, as noted in the recent historical record (cf. “the complete 9/11 timeline”). 2002 – Iraq?: Evil! Smite Evil! Get oil! Did I say oil? I meant that Evildoer tried to kill my daddy! One excellent hoax, besides the manufactured general “threat” rhetoric, is the alleged 15 kg of “weapons-grade uranium” recovered in Turkey in mid 2002, allegedly bound for Iraq from “Eastern Europe.” Too bad that this “weapons-grade uranium” has “Made in West Germany” written on it—in English. Bibliography Agee, P. Inside the Company: CIA Diary. Baltimore: Penguin Books, 1975. Ali, T., ed. Masters of the Universe? London: Verso, 2000. Ali, T. The Clash of Fundamentalisms. London: Verso, 2002. Blum, W. Killing Hope. Monroe: Common Courage Press, 1995. Blum, W. Rogue State. Monroe: Common Courage, 2000. Blum, W. West-Bloc Dissident. New York: Soft Skull Press, 2002. Booth, K. & Dunne, T., eds. Worlds in Collision: Terror and the Future of Global Order. New York: Palgrave MacMillan, 2002. Brisard, J. & Dasquie, G. Forbidden Truth. New York: Thunder’s Mouth Press/Nation Books, 2002. Brisbane, R. Black Activism. Valley Forge: Judson Press, 1974. Brock, D. Blinded by the Right. New York: Crown Publishers, 2002. Caldicott, H. The New Nuclear Danger. New York: The New Press, 2002. Callinicos, A. Against the Third Way. Cambridge: Polity Press, 2001. Callinicos, A. Race and Class. London: Bookmarks, 1998. Catalinotto, J. & Flounders, S., eds. Hidden Agenda: US/NATO Takeover of Yugoslavia. New York: International Action Center, 2002. Chomsky, N. 9-11. New York: Seven Stories, 2001. Chomsky, N. Deterring Democracy. New York: Hill and Wang, 1992. Chomsky, N. Profit Over People. New York: Seven Stories, 1999. Chomsky, N. Rogue States. Cambridge: South End Press, 2000. Chomsky, N & Herman, E. Manufacturing Consent. New York: Pantheon, 2002. Churchill, W. A Little Matter of Genocide. San Francisco: City Lights Press, 1997. Churchill, W. & Wall, J., eds. The Cointelpro Papers. Boston: South End, 1990. Chussodovsky, M. War and Globalization. Shanty Bay: Global Outlook, 2002. Clark, R., et al., eds. NATO in the Balkans. New York: International Action Center, 1998. Collier, J. & Collier, K. Votescam: The Stealing of America. New York: Victoria House Press, 1996. Courtois, S., et al. The Black Book of Communism. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2001. Danaher, K., ed. 50 Years is Enough: The Case against the WB and the IMF. Boston: South End Press, 1994. Daniels, R., ed. A Documentary History of Communism in Russia. Hanover: University Press of New England, 1993. Fanon, F. The Wretched of the Earth. New York: Grove press, 1963. Fried, A, ed. Communism in America: A History in Documents. New York: Columbia University Press, 1997. Gerson, J. & Birchard, B. The Sun Never Sets: Confronting the Network of Foreign U.S. Military Bases. Boston: South End Press, 1991. Hardt, M. & Negri, A. Empire. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2000. Hastings, M. The Korean War. New York: Touchstone, 1987. Herring, G., ed. The Pentagon Papers. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1993. Irons, P. A People’s History of the Supreme Court. New York: Penguin, 1999. Johnson, C. Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire. New York: Henry Holt & Co., 2000. Kaye, H. Why Do Ruling Classes Fear History? New York: St. Martin’s Griffin, 1997. Lane, M. Plausible Denial. New York: Thunder’s Mouth Press, 1991. Lemkin, R. Axis Rule in Occupied Europe. Washington DC: Carnegie Institute, 1944. Lewis, B. Islam in History. Chicago: Open Court, 1993. Loewen, J. Lies My Teacher Told Me. New York: Touchstone, 1995. Marchetti, V. & Marks, J. The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence. New York: Dell Publishing, 1974. McGehee, R. Deadly Deceits: My 25 Years with the CIA. Melbourne: Ocean Press, 1999. McGowan, D. Derailing Democracy. Monroe: Common Courage, 2000. McGowan, D. Understanding the F-Word: American Fascism and the Politics of Illusion. San Jose: Writers Club Press, 2001. Medvedev, R. Let History Judge: The Origins and Consequences of Stalinism. New York: Vintage Books, 1971. Meszaros, I. Socialism or Barbarism. New York: Monthly Review Press, 2001. Moore, M. Stupid White Men. New York: HarperCollins, 2001. Parenti, M. Against Empire. San Francisco: City Lights Books, 1995. Parenti, M. America Besieged. San Francisco: City Lights Books, 1998. Parenti, M. The Anti-Communist Impulse. New York: Random House, 1969. Parenti, M. Blackshirts & Reds. San Francisco: City Lights Books, 1997. Parenti, M. Dirty Truths. San Francisco: City Lights Books, 1996. Parenti, M. The Terrorism Trap. San Francisco: City Lights Books, 2002. Pipes, R. Russia under the Old Regime. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1974. Pipes, R. The Russian Revolution. New York: Vintage, 1990. Pipes, R. Russia under the Bolshevik Regime. New York: Vintage, 1994. Raphael, R. A People’s History of the American Revolution. New York: Perennial, 2001. Rashid, A. Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil, and Fundamentalism in Central Asia. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2000. Reed, J. Ten Days that Shook the World. New York: International Press, 1982. Schlosser, E. Fast Food Nation. New York: HarperCollins, 2001. Schrecker, E. The Age of McCarthyism. Boston: Bedford/St. Martin’s, 1994. Shirer, W. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1960. Simpson, C. Blowback: The First Full Account of America’s Recruitment of Nazis, and its Disastrous Effect on our Domestic and Foreign Policy. New York: Collier Books, 1988. Sklar, H., ed. Trilateralism. Boston: South End Press, 1980. Solzhenitsyn, A. The Gulag Archipelago. 3 vol. H. Willetts, trans. New York: Westview Press, 1992. Stannard, D. American Holocaust. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992. Trotsky, L. History of the Russian Revolution. New York: Pathfinder, 1996. Tyrrell, I. The Absent Marx: Class Analysis and Liberal History in 20th Century America. New York: Greenwood Press, 1986. Wegs, J., & Ladrech, R. Europe Since 1945: A Concise History. New York: St. Martin’s Press, 1996. Worcester, K., et al., eds. Violence and Politics: Globalization’s Paradox. New York: Routledge, 2002. Zepezauer, M. & Naiman, A. Take the Rich Off Welfare. Tucson: Odonian Press, 1996 Zezima, M. Saving Private Power. New York: Soft Skull Press, 2000. Zinn, H. A People’s History of the United States. New York: HarperCollins, 1999. Zinn, H. The Zinn Reader. New York: Seven Stories Press, 1997. Useful Periodicals Covert Action Quarterly Dissent Extra! Guardian Independent International Socialist Review Monthly Review The Nation New Left Review New Politics Observer Race Traitor Socialist Review Z Relevant Hyperlinks US interventions, geostrategy, and other crimes: http://64.177.75.218/completetimeline/index.htm http://americanstateterrorism.com/AmericanStateTerrorism.html http://mediafilter.org/caq/ http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm#beginning http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/freeearth/war/chronology_meOCT01.html http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45/046.html http://www.historyguy.com/War_list.html http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/foabroad.htm http://www.cdi.org/ http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-thinktank.htm http://stratfor.com/ http://www.bessereweltlinks.de/english/book73e.htm http://www.opensecrets.org/ http://www.stoessel.ch/hei/hpi/usa_1895_2000_summary.pdf http://www2.minorisa.es/inshuti/madsen2.htm http://globalism-news.com/conspiracy.html http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/28/039.html http://tfclub.tripod.com/list.html http://www.alternativeinsight.com/Foreign_Policy_Failures.html http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa.html http://pw1.netcom.com/~ncoic/cia_info.htm http://www.cia-on-campus.org/ http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/us-latin-america.htm global finance: http://www.developmentgap.org/ http://www.whirledbank.org/index.html http://www.federalreserve.gov/ http://www.bilderberg.org/ http://www.imf.org/external/index.htm http://www.worldbank.org/ http://www.wto.org/ http://www.inequality.org/index.html http://www.marshallfoundation.org/about_gcm/marshall_plan.htm http://www.foreignpolicy-infocus.org/briefs/vol3/v3n3sap.html http://www.oneworld.net/guides/sap/front.shtml http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/agp/free/imf/index.htm http://www.brettonwoodsproject.org/index.html general history and current global affairs: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/coldwar.htm http://www.rrojasdatabank.org/country1.htm http://www.krysstal.com/democracy.html http://www.travel.dk.com/wdr/ http://www.worldstatesmen.org/ http://www.worldhistory.com/ http://www.world-gazetteer.com/home.htm http://www.debka.com/pop_up.htm http://www.countryreports.org/history/ http://www.nysol.se/index3.html http://history.hyperjeff.net/conflicts/MiddleEast/Timeline2.html http://www.onwar.com/ http://www.nanana.com/worldhistory.html http://www.amnesty.org/ http://www.kentlaw.edu/ilhs/curricul.htm#6 http://www.tibet.ca/wtnarchive/1999/4/17-2_3.html http://www.angelfire.com/id/multicultural/featureafrica.html http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/index.html http://members.tripod.com/Brian_Blodgett/Conflicts.htm http://www.clamormagazine.org/ http://www.boydgraves.com/timeline/ http://sites.uol.com.br/chpennaforte/generalindex.htm http://www.iacenter.org/ http://www.citizens4change.org/home.htm http://www.anti-imperialist.org/ http://www.dictatorwatch.org/ http://www.africa2000.com/directory.html http://www.worldhistorycompass.com/index.htm alternative media: http://www.indymedia.org/ http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/index.html http://wsws.org/ http://www.labourstart.org/ http://www.copvcia.com/ http://www.greenleft.org.au/ http://www.endgame.org/ http://pilger.carlton.com/print/67484 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ http://www.humorisdead.com/index.html http://www.globalexchange.org/ http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm http://protest.net/qatar.html http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/ http://www.nomorefakenews.com/ http://www.workingforchange.com/index.cfm http://www.informationwar.org/ http://www.yellowtimes.org/ http://www.propagandamatrix.com/thepropagandamatrix http://www.everythingblows.com/index.cfm http://www.americanpolitics.com/index.html http://www.almartinraw.com/index.html http://www.mediawhoresonline.com/ http://www.gregpalast.com/ http://www.prwatch.org/improp/research_faq.html http://www.bushnews.com/ http://www.alternet.org/ http://www.worldwar3report.com/ http://www.antiwar.com/justin/justincol.html http://www.newleftreview.net/NLR15.shtml http://www.monthlyreview.org/
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pop quizby .. Thursday, Dec. 05, 2002 at 1:00 AMwho wrote this?
"From your post, B o y W o n d e r, can we assume that you have no counter- arguments? Sounds like you are out of ammunition. If you do have a counter-argument I'd love to hear it."
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Outstanding!by Sheepdog Thursday, Dec. 05, 2002 at 4:56 AMcecil, way to go!
Damn this is massive. Still kicking but and taking names. Thank you for your extensive research. Too bad we can’t force feed the truth into the parrots and apologists of this criminal government. Then again, they ARE just following orders and the truth means they must scurry like roaches when the light comes on. It’s a full time job for these campers. Their responses are weak and predictable. Devoid of independent thought as evident in the mindless posts they produce, without solid facts or reasoning. What else can you expect from mind slaves? Real americans ALWAYS know that this country is worth fighting for right here, with the truth. Lackeys and rats are the real enemy of freedom and america. Let them lick the ass of their kings.
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Keep riding herdby Baphomet Thursday, Dec. 05, 2002 at 12:45 PMGo Sheepdog! Keep riding herd on these right wing thugs.
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Whiping the mirrorby Question Friday, Dec. 06, 2002 at 7:39 AMBush Admirer, Simple Simon & Co.
“ looking for ............(a good time?) Funny how the pot calls the kettle black.
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OneEyedManby KPC Friday, Dec. 06, 2002 at 4:16 PMBushBlower: "Saddam had simply kicked out the UN inspectors and defied the UN resolutions"
Still spreading propaganda that has long ago been exposed as a lie? Typical Republican...when the truth doesn't serve your ends, make something up! Truth is for wimps....
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thanks 'KPC'.....by lynx-11 Friday, Dec. 06, 2002 at 7:56 PM"Today’s mass media often repeat the US claim that inspectors were thrown out of Iraq by Saddam Hussein in 1998. Actually, they were withdrawn by request of President Clinton on the eve of his Desert Fox bombing campaign"
check it out
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re clintonby cecil Saturday, Dec. 07, 2002 at 11:58 AMbush admirer--
not many people on indy will defend clinton. however, the far right tends to assault him for his sex-life, foster's death, and various domestic scandals--troopergate, travelgate, whitewatergate, pardongate--and then chinagate in terms of foreign stuff. thing is, much of this is garbage--made-up by a pack of lying hacks. the real reason to impeach clinton--and every other us president since ww2--is foreign policy: crimes against humanity, against peace, and of war. these happen to built into the structures of us political economy, and since they are systemic, the only possible end to the us holocaust is radical change. dont try to change the subject from us crimes here--committed by both dems and the gop--and turn this into yet another tedious & misguided anti-clinton rant.
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OneEyedManby KPC Saturday, Dec. 07, 2002 at 1:13 PMBushBlower: "I read the link you presented. Let me be sure that I understand you."
OK, let me say it S L O W L Y....... ..you are a LYING FUCK....slower? ... A L Y I N G F U C K... Got it? You know that these inspectors were not "thrown out", caught in you BLANTANT L I E....you do a cute little pussy side step. You are not enhancing your reputation here...no, wait a minute...you ARE enhancing your reputation here...everybody here knows what a lying fuck you are, even those who agree with you...of this there is no doubt.
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OneEyedManby KPC Tuesday, Dec. 10, 2002 at 12:24 PM..incoherence????
OK, maybe you need it even slower... A L Y I N G F U C K Now, what part is difficult for you to understand? Maybe I could help you further.
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Mrby Ryan Wednesday, Dec. 11, 2002 at 9:42 AMrferris@rmfdevelopment.com This shows quite a bit of work. It is difficult to find timelines and bibliographies as complete as this. If you know of any others, please send comment. I have cross-posted your fully completed document to my website at this location:
www.rmfdevelopment.com/political/LAIM_USImperialism_timeline.htm I am also looking for Timelines of the Third Reich avaliable for reprint in order to compare with Bush/Ashcroft Fourth Reich Fascism. Do you know of any? This document would be a good start for further linkage or history. Or as a name-base starting point like http://www.pir.org/bkrvw3.html Thanks again to Cecil for all this hard work. Ryan M. Ferris rferris@rmfdevelopment.com www.rmfdevelopment.com
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Sueby Sue Thursday, Feb. 20, 2003 at 11:16 PMsuemark@comcen.com.au Unfortunately, a typical reaction from a people who wish to keep their heads buried in the sand regarding their "democracy-loving" nation ... the same nation that is systematically beginning to take away their very rights underneath their noses with the Department of Homeland Security. It's amazing how instilling fear into your subjects can get them to bend to your will ... ask Julius Caesar.
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Sue is a liarby Where do you get this? Al-jazeera? Friday, Feb. 21, 2003 at 5:34 AMSue, give me some liberties taken away by Homeland Defense? Now illegal immigrants from muslim countries have to get their IDs and register with the US? Oh god, thats a liberty Im not willing to lose. I hope more unregistered terrorists can come into america.
Seriously, nice propaganda, but back it up with something.
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Go Girlby Sheepdog Friday, Feb. 21, 2003 at 6:22 AMignore the weasel.
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Thanks i will ignore weaselsby Bill Clinton, give more nukes to North Korea! Friday, Feb. 21, 2003 at 6:30 AMThanks sheepdog, i think i will ignore weasels, such as france, germany, anti-liberation folks, thanks for the support!
No Enslavement for Liberal Values!
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Rightie tightiesby Granny Friday, Feb. 21, 2003 at 8:04 AMI wish Clinton would just wip out his dick and show it to all the rightwingers. Then maybe they would shut up about him already. As if people at this site give a shit about Clinton. Morons.
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:)by g. Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 6:13 PMon_the_inside@hotmail.com cecil, thank you for your time, effort and research. It's a shame it can't reach a larger audience.
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unamerican!by America!!!1 Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 12:16 PMthis list is anti-amemrican!
i can't not beleive you would say such bad things abuot amarica! you should go live in cuba and kill yorselF!!! who cares how many poeple amarica killed! they got in our way!! havent yuo herd of marifast desnity!! they are week we are strong!! yeah just wate until you go to iraq and we bomb yuo with tomahawks and the MOAB!!! bet you will not be so smartassed unamarican than!!
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American!!!1, You are a moron thugby Sheepdog Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 12:38 PMA prime example why ignorant (emphasis on rant) fools such as yourself cheer as 'our' government's policies produce
ever more hatred from the rest of the world. Assholes like you endanger my children and other innocents in the from of retaliation from anguished victims of your kind of self-serving head up your ass 'I could care less' attitude. Do us a favor and die.
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Don't Ask. Don't Smell.by Digoenes Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 12:47 PMAfter reading though the thread I think the comments of the various Shills, Trolls, and other dead wood can be neatly summarized as:
Don't Ask. Don't Smell After all you wouldn't really want to know what the corrupt politicians in Washington are up to would you? Well do ya Punk?
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Wow....some sanity!!!! Finally!!!by HI, DIOGENES AND SHEEPDOG!!! Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 12:58 PM
Love you both!!! Glad I did not have to sit through an entire Friday without seeing some posts from you guys. Love you both!!!!!
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anyone besides me...by an observer Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 1:02 PMever notice that Diogenes and Sheepdog always seem to be on imc posting at nearly the same times?
Coincidence??
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wowby Sheepdog Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 1:07 PMThanks.
I've been posting however under other nicks due to the morons and mimics. It's like a rain of toads lately.
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Oh, and to observer...by Sheepdog Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 1:10 PMWe think along similar lines with a few differences.
You're not that observant, however.
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I doubt itby fresca Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 2:12 PMI doubt they are the same. Dio's posts, as ludicrous as his ill-informed conspiracy theories are, are much more intelligent and articulate than Sheepdog's. Sheepdog is just a kid who hates any authority and has a comic book worldview. A simple idiot. I seriuosly doubt that one person of this ilk could pull off two distinct posting personalities. They are hilarious though, aren't they.
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You know fresca...by Diogenes Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 2:16 PM...someday when you have finished growing up and move out on your own you will have the blinding realization that you no longer have to parrot your parent's views.
It's quite refreshing.
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lol, c'mon nowby fresca Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 2:20 PMAw, c'mon Dio, feelings hurt? You can do better than that. Tell me the story about how Bush planned 9-11 again.
And how is it that a conspiracy Psyops guy like yourself ever voted for Bush to begin with. You have in fact stated that you DID vote for him.
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Bush Admirerby Ann Coulter Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 2:28 PMThanks for putting up another photo of Ann Coulter.
She doesn't spread ignorance and hate though. What she does is point out ignorance when she sees it. She also points out bias in the media and how completely illogical the left is. In other words, Ann's a great lady.
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Hey now...by Eric Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 2:30 PMLet's chill out with the Ann Coulter slander. Not only is the woman a fine piece of ass, she also has quite a vocabulary. Try reader that book without using a dictionary. I'm being serious.
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???by fresca Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 2:33 PM"When the fuck will you contribute something other than put-downs. Who the fuck died and made you God? "
What makes you think that you'd understand anything I'd contribute? Put-downs are all that's accepted here. Look at your own silly posts, or the posts of Dio or Sheepdog whenever ANYONE disagrees with them. This board is not about discourse. It's about a few fools like yourself who can't accept dissent. The only value it has anymore is as an opportunity to ridicule closeminded people like yourselves. Quit feeling sorry for yourself. You're in no position to discuss anything. You're simply a target. Thanks, but I'll save my contributions for other liberal boards where actual discussions happen.
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COULTER IS A MEDIA WHOREby GO FUCK YOURSELF, BUSH ASS-KISSER Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 2:37 PMGo play on the war front if you think it is so great.
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SCREW YEW FREEPERS!!by Eric Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 2:39 PMANN COULTER IS FUCKING WAY FINE!! TELL SOMEONE THAT GIVES A SHIT!!!
!!!!!
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Ann Coulter is way fine...by Diogenes Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 2:45 PM...if you are a necrophiliac with a liking for Telebimbos. She looks to me like a Blonde Corpse. You are what you eat.
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But...by Ann Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 2:53 PM...Eric does need to get laid without having to leave
money on the motel dresser. Sexual/emotional frustration will take its toll.
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SCREWW YEW IMCEEPERS!by Eric Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 3:02 PMI got pussy just last night. From a very foxy lady! While all the rest of you are whacking off to Soldier of Fortune, I get pussy quite regularly.
Of course those that aren't spanking it to Army mags are homos and don't really care. Boy do I have you losers pegged!!1 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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yes Ericby Ann Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 3:10 PMOf course you did.
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Heyby fresca Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 4:22 PMWhat's wrong with being a "cunt washer"? And why do you hate Mexicans and Gays so much? You need a hug child.
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fine piece of ass?by Pissed Off in Ohio Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 4:24 PM"fine piece of ass?!?"
You must be kidding. She looks like skeletor in spandex and a wig. Ugh. And then she starts speaking and its all down hill from there. Nothing sex about a blood thirsty media whore wiping her ass with the constitution as she screams for blood. Nothing at all. Could be Jenna FineAssWoahMan Jameson herself and it would still be disgusting. BTW: those of us that do occasionally read books are capable of 'reader'ing anne's diatribes without the necessity of a translator. Maybe she should release cliffnote versions for the mentally impaired, here's how I would imagine it might go: "War is good. War makes you and I free, and they will love us for the war we bring them. If you do not embrace our war, you are a nazi and you hate america. God loves war. God loves you if you love war. God. Terror. Peace. War. Terror. God. Dissent is not patriotic. The right to free speech is only applicable if your free speech agrees with my free speech. Otherwise you're a traitor. War. Terror. 9/11. Terror. Peace. WMD. Terror." One benefit of such an abbreviated version of her bullshit is that instead of reading all her crap, you can just keep reading that same paragraph over and over and you have accomplished the same end effect. How effecient! Oh and Eric, man you sound waaaaay to familiar with the concept of masturbating to images of artillery. Thats kinda creepy man. You should consider mental help. Really. I'm not even trying to bust on you, if I was i'd be laying it down much differently. Please go see somebody about that shit cause it doesn't sound like you're quite right in the head.
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Jesusby Diogenes Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 4:30 PM"Could be Jenna FineAssWoahMan Jameson herself "
Not for nothin', but you are really a dumb redneck aren't you?
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I would expect as much from a homo....by Eric Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 4:56 PMDon't ask and don't fucking tell, mr. Three Dollar Bill.
Obviously, you've not read Ann's book. Well, I bought a few extra copies to give out as gifts. Post your address and I'll send you one.
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Well...by Pissed Off in Ohio Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 5:06 PMI'm not a redneck, at least nothing in comparison to the kind of rednecks we have around here... i just think jenna is one fine piece of tail. Yes she has had a lot of sex with a lot of people, so i don't know if i'd actually be getting busy with her any time soon, but i can look :)
Certainly puts skeletor ann to shame in the looks department, thats for sure. Actually, I'm not a redneck at all, in any sense of the word, even slightly. Nothing wrong with it really, some nice rednecks out there, i'm not one of them though.
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wowby wow Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 5:06 PMwow
Sticks&Stones Wah, wah.
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.by . Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 5:12 PM
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You're a possum eatin' sqwerl huntin'by Eric Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 5:13 PMtrailor livin' pick-up truck with shotgun rack drivin' dirt farmin' redneck.
I bet you even have a couple of wagon wheel ornaments out by the mailbox.
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Of course you areby fresca Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 5:14 PM"Actually, I'm not a redneck at all, in any sense of the word, even slightly. Nothing wrong with it really, some nice rednecks out there, i'm not one of them though."
No big deal but you obviously are. All your posts about "kicking ass" and your general level of intelligence is a bit of a tip off. Be proud of it.
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Ohhh no, I'm not a redneck.by Max Thrasher Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 5:16 PMDenial: not just a river in Sudan.
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hey nowby . Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 5:21 PM
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No, reallyby Pissed Off in Ohio Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 5:55 PMNot a redneck, I just happen to live in ohio. That doesn't make you a redneck. Even if it did there wouldn't be anything wrong with it. Rednecks are fine, its ignorant violent rednecks that need to be put in check.
Oh and fresca you making comments about my level of intelligence is fucking hilarious. Really. I would so thoroughly hand you your ass in any arena, physical, mental, whatever - whereever, I would own you. And if my willingness to kick your ass is how you would gauge my intelligence, perhaps consider its not a lack of wit but the presence of a spinal column. The buck must stop somewhere. I take personal responsibility for the actions of my government and everyone else needs to start doing the same. Every drop of blood spilled in our name is on every single one of our hands, for or against the war, and no degree of righteousness will ever justify it. So, until I have the opportunity to personally beat some sense into ol dubya, i will settle on you wouldbe brownshirt idiot thugs. Baby steps i suppose you could say. I'd leave you alone but you're rallying for murder. Thats unacceptable. oh and "max thrasher" (what an incredibly lame name. wow.) - "Denial: not just a river in Sudan." - I've actually touched the Nile. Can you say the same? I've witnessed the pyramids in person, met and lived with the people of the middle east and I'm here to tell you from personal experience that they don't all hate us, they don't want us all dead, they're just trying to live as best they can, same as any of us. Some of them have been manipulated and twisted by their religous leaders, the same as many of us. But that is no reason to stoop to the level some of them suspect we exist at. You who are so quick to condemn these people to death, have you ever met any of them? Have you any perspective on their lives beyond what cnn tells you? Is it so unreasonable to imagine that maybe they just don't want us there? The idea of our nation popping up, barely 200 years old, and then going on an international crusade to impose our political doctirine on the rest of the world is patently insane. Its like a teenager showing up at a factory and telling the foreman how to do his job. There are many things we do not understand about these people and their homeland, and bombing and killing them is no way to increase that understanding or foster good will. Who are we to assume our way is best. It barely suffices for us, who is to say it would yield favorable results imposed on others. We are all the same once you stop looking at the superficial aspects of our existence like race, sex, age, and wealth. This is a fundamental truth and must be accepted by all of us for mankind to progress beyond the endless material distractions of the day. There is more to life than trinkets and violence.
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FUCK YOUby FUCK YOU FREEPER ASSHOLES Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 5:58 PM
Get a life or get lost. BORING assholes.
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Two items...by Diogenes Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 6:32 PMThe comment on this thread titled "Jesus" is not mine.
P.O.I.O - You the man!!!!! You had THE best Ann Coulter simile: "...Skeletor in Spandex with a Wig." YEEEEAAAH!!!!
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Rightious! here's a good one.by Sheepdog Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 7:21 PM
No lie, POIO, you do use a sharp edge.
GREAT post.
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Hey, Pissed Off in Ohio:by California Girl (Now) Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 7:28 PM
Hey, makes me proud to originally be from the Buckeye State, POIO!!! Way to go!!!!
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Cecilby Scottie Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 9:25 PMThat is indeed an impressive list - I congradulate you or whoever did the research to compile it.
The dispute with this list Is not really the specifics it is the question of "what was the alternative". Every country in the world is simultaniously responsible for many of deaths often countable in the millions and at the same time responsible for saving a similar amount. (due to its policies on health, social welfare and foreign affairs amongst others) Most try their best to have an OK total score card but no one seriously considers just adding up the negatives - it is meaningless. If you attack the USA you imply you want to replace it with someone else. Your list implies it is possible to be a super power while simultaniously never being responsible for deaths through action or inaction - even through failing to avoid being attacked or failing to intervene in some theoretically optimal way. One could even argue that the attempt to stop comunism was a great thing for humanity because it appears that the system of comunism that the comunists supported was a failure (at least compared to capitalism). (I dont include modern chineese comunism in this because that is a totally different form.) Therefore the majority of your "crimes" here were in effect "services to humanity" Just as was the defeat of the NAZI a service to humanity as opposed to a war crime. The only "crime" would then be the USSR and China's role. (or the role of the local Marxists)
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Pissed offby fresca Saturday, Apr. 05, 2003 at 11:15 PM"Oh and fresca you making comments about my level of intelligence is fucking hilarious. Really. I would so thoroughly hand you your ass in any arena, physical, mental, whatever - whereever, I would own you. "
Christ, you betray your hillbilly intellect more with every post. You are double-wide, trailer trash talking jock who doesn't even have the sense to realize how ridiculous it is to continually threaten people on a BULLETIN BOARD. You're talking to a computer you fucking dummy. Who are you trying to impress. You have nothing to say other than countless variations on "ohman, if you were here I'd kick your ass". Listen, fratboy (if indeed you've ever made it to college) give it a rest and just forget trying to come off as some erudite uber-mensch. You've shown your colors. A hillbilly stuck in south Ohio, itchin' to kick ass. And as for this gem, "The idea of our nation popping up, barely 200 years old, and then going on an international crusade to impose our political doctirine on the rest of the world is patently insane. Its like a teenager showing up at a factory and telling the foreman how to do his job. There are many things we do not understand about these people and their homeland, and bombing and killing them is no way to increase that understanding or foster good will. Who are we to assume our way is best. It barely suffices for us, who is to say it would yield favorable results imposed on others. " Of course this seems anethma to you because you are one of the deluded who don't even believe we were attacked on 9-11. you're entire credibility ends there and every thought of yours after that is irrelevant. You actually believe; you HAVE to believe that we are there for nefarious, imperical reasons, but your only evidence of this is your own emotions. The use of whatever backwards ass redneck intellect you have would neccesitate a paradigm shift in your beliefs. You see, copy and paste theorists like yourself and Dio and Sheepdog etc. CANNOT turn to thought and facts but must remain mired in a sea of confused emotion or your entire house of cards falls apart. . So keep kicking ass fratboy. Trolls like you never stick around.
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200 years oldby scottie Sunday, Apr. 06, 2003 at 5:56 AMUSA's traditions are those inherited over thousands of years through the english the romans the greeks and before that egypt. Therefore in this way it is as old as any other country besides debatably china.
Anyway at an age of 200 the USA is already an adult on the world stage. the metaphore would be more apropriate if you suggested that a 40 year old man was taking over the factory and a group of 80 and 90 year old men were complaining (together with a few pre-schoolers. "Who are we to assume our way is best" This sort of moral equality places you on very dangerous philosophical ground. You see we are arguing for democracy rule of law etc etc. You seem to arbitrarily define a country (for example Iraq) to have a culture of "despotism" for example because it happens to have a despot now. If your suggestin is that some peoples culture is that they should not have influence over their own governance you could jsut as easily say that ethiopia has a culture of starving and so therefore they should starve and it would make jsut about as much sense.
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I hate cultureby scottie Sunday, Apr. 06, 2003 at 7:02 AMCulture without a logic and moral foundation is just another method of tyrany of the majority at best and tyrany of the minority most often.
Ideally culture would strictly reflect those rules required for society to function properly and efficiently and besides that there would be no restrictions upon the individual freedom of individuals. Culture can be wrong. And not all cultures are exactly equal (I am not saying which one is best of course).
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bumpby Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Apr. 06, 2003 at 7:37 PMbump.
And on a related note, some replies: To the haters: screw you assholes, we'll get back to that though. Everyone else: thanks ppl, you all rock Back to the haters: BA: "Touched the Nile." Yes "Seen the Pyamids!" Yes "And a real high opinion of himself too." You bet "He's the one who understands the Arab psyche" Better than you it seems. "Give it a break." No "You couldn't stand in for Fresca in any sort of intellectual contest." HAHA For that lets inspect a small bit of fresca's reply to my last comment - "because you are one of the deluded who don't even believe we were attacked on 9-11. you're entire credibility ends there and every thought of yours after that is irrelevant." This statement clearly illustrates fresca barely understands the rules of the game, or basic grammar, much less is he/she capable of formulating a respectable strategy for victory in a debate. In what way could it possibly be argued that we weren't attacked on 9/11? I dispute WHO attacked us and more importantly WHY. And most relevant to today, what the hell did Iraq have to do with 9/11? Nothing. Nothing at all. And yet the idea that they did is the premise for our invasion of their country. Oh but now we're liberating them. Phew, almost ran out of any even vaguely moral reasons to run amok in their country side. And to the idea that my credibility ends there, i would respond that perhaps thats true in regards to fresca, or ba, or erikkk, or any of you other brainwashed freeper maggots, but as it turns out, I don't care how much validity I have with you idiots. I'm not here to impress you, or anyone else for that matter. And also, since it is abundantly clear that our administration is currently and has been lieing to us for a long time, i would say that ones credibility BEGINS when they question the hype. So piss off, I could give a rats ass what any of you think of me anyways. Also "you're entire credibility" seems a rather stunning error for one who's lightyears ahead of ignorant little hillybilly me. Especially considering the statement itself was part of an attack on my intellect. A spell checker will only get you so far. "You've also missed the boat where Ann Coulter is concerned. Ann is a super person who has liberals figured out rather precisely. If you read her book it will give you a rather accurate picture of the Democrats and the liberal media. She's really great." - Oh yeah, I bet she's just super. Is she still labelling protesters as traitors to the nation? Really, really great. I'm sure. And as for the idea of me reading her "literature", hahahahah no thats not going to happen. Anyone can paint any picture they'd like of any scenario and it doesn't make it so. In fact when one paints pictures of subject matter unrelated to the debate at hand (ie, we're debating the validity of preemptive war and ann is attacking liberals) that picture could be more accurately referred to as propoganda, or distractionary tactics, or both. So you go ahead and keep your propoganda, hug it close as you go to bed, because if ann tells you that their blood isn't on your hands, and that the people who spilled it will certainly thank you for helping them do so, well then it just has to be so. It is on paper after all. Don't trust websites though. They all lie, but ann would never. People can't lie in books anyways. Duh. When they try the ink just fails to bond to the paper and the lie disappears, as if by magic. "What gets me is that you clowns actually admire a pitiful piece of garbage retard like Michael Moore while at the same time insulting a great great lady like Ann Coulter." Hey at least Moore has the courage to speak up for his beliefs even in light of dire political, social, and financial repurcussions. Ann is a whore to the partyline and will get no respect from me for doing her part to propel us into the fourth reich. For that matter, the idea that only liberals are against this war or bush is absurd. If ever there was a bipartisan issue it is at hand today. Bush is about as republican as he is christian. What a sad sorry joke of a pResident. It would be funny if it wasn't killing people with the punchline. Fresca: First off, if you're female, no i would not plant my foot in your ass. It would be damn tempting but I would find a female patriot to do that instead. Your testosterone laden cries for war and death under the guise of freedom and spirtuality marked you as a neanderthalic throwback to cavemen, and its hard to picture any feminity in the crap you spew through your keyboard. And with regard to making 'threats' via computer: I didn't threaten anyone in this thread, I merely stated that in any arena of combat, mental or physical, I would be the victor (against fresca anyways). Thats a challenge (and it was issued under the potentially erroneous assumption that fresca was an adult male). Its only viewed as a threat by the terminally insecure (aka "cowards"). Also, even if i was just sitting here threatening rightwing dickheads with an assbeating all day, it WOULD accomplish something in that it contributes my grain of relevance to the statistical desert of public opinion. Mine is: "I have had enough of you idiots, especially the ones that would try to strongarm people who are largely pacifistic". I believe I've made that point abundantly clear and I will continue to do so, so that next time one of you little brownshirt wannabe nazi assholes decides to strongarm some public opinion, perhaps you will reconsider when you wonder if the person you're strong arming is me. Or someone like minded. Indeed we are everywhere these days, as patience wears thin on all fronts, since protesting so clearly accomplishes very little. "you HAVE to believe that we are there for nefarious, imperical reasons, but your only evidence of this is your own emotions" - No, there has been a substantial pile of lies fed to the public, most posing as moralistic justification for invasion, and this alone is enough to question the validity of such a rushed war. These lies are enough for me, but even if i required a roadmap to a clue so to speak, the fact that there are so many lies being tossed around so casually should be more than enough reason to at least delay preemptive violent aggression until the truth can be sorted out. "You see, copy and paste theorists like yourself " The only thing i have ever pasted in this forum is statements by people i am replying to, or URLs. Everything else I have written. Thank you though, your thinly vieled attempt to discredit my intellect is rather flattering. I couldn't find much else in fresca's statement that warranted reply. scottie: "USA's traditions are those inherited over thousands of years" - Only as much as everyone elses are similarly adopted. And thus ours have about as much relevance as theirs, if that. "Therefore in this way it is as old as any other country besides debatably china." - And yet we still feel compelled to bring a big heaping dish of democracy over to china as well. Huh. "This sort of moral equality places you on very dangerous philosophical ground." - I care. Really. "You see we are arguing for democracy rule of law etc etc." - Oh? So by your logic we would have a president we elected, who didn't legislate new laws and temporary powers whenever his existing ones didn't suit him, and we would respect the voice of the masses and their decisions, and we would regulate ourselves through a system of checks and balances, and we would always hold human life with the highest of regard. Good to see so much of that going around today. Not like bush was appointed to office by a handful of people who were also appointed (for LIFE?). Not like he's been stripping away our civil liberties as he grants himself new interim powers of war under the false pretense of iraq's involvement in 9/11. Good thing the other branchs of our government can keep his cabinet balanced in check though... oh wait. Guess those interim powers kinda took care of that too eh? How convienent. Oh but at least dubya lubs him some human life. Hell he even declared a national 'sanctity of life' day. Isn't that just extra-special. "You seem to arbitrarily define a country (for example Iraq) to have a culture of "despotism" for example because it happens to have a despot now." - I did what? Where? I said "Who are we to assume our way is best?" and I stand by my statement. What the hell do we know. Hell our general populace is too distracted by crap like american idol to give a rats ass about their countries finances going to hell, or their civil liberties being robbed from them, or our international alliances being deliberatly and systematically trashed. We clearly do not have our shit as together as we'd like to think we do. "If your suggestin is that some peoples culture is that they should not have influence over their own governance" - No i didn't say that, you inferred that from your previous assumption. Again, what I said was "Who are we to assume our way is best". Case in point, what influence do we have over our governance right now? Was bush elected? Did he give a rats ass when huge portions of the domestic and international populace cried out against his illfated conquest? Careful what words you try to put in my mouth, you may get them crammed right back down your throat. And regarding ethopia, hell by all means lets go feed them! What the hell man, we're paying farmers not to grow out here and why? For the interests of big business farming conglomerates? What the hell man, we have potentially one of the single largest farm lands in the world and we insist on growing (and liberally distributing) smart bombs instead of food. "and it would make jsut about as much sense." - Well when the words you put in my mouth don't make sense i can't see how anyone other than yourself should be held accountable. So congrads champ, you can create and debunk an illogical arguement singlehandedly. I bet you're a huge fan of masturbation too eh? "Culture without a logic and moral foundation is just another method of tyrany of the majority at best and tyrany of the minority most often." - Ok now you're just making shit up. PUT THE BONG DOWN. "Culture can be wrong. And not all cultures are exactly equal (I am not saying which one is best of course)." - Oh of course not. Clearly though ours is "better enough" to warrant cramming it down the worlds throat. Anyone who would argue that is clearly out of touch with how incredibly wonderful all things american are. Where did we hide our culture anyways? Seems we used to have one, somewhere...
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WOW!!!by I love POIO Sunday, Apr. 06, 2003 at 8:37 PMTo you, Sir, I take my hat off. Magnificent post.
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Try again sonby fresca Sunday, Apr. 06, 2003 at 10:50 PM""you HAVE to believe that we are there for nefarious, imperical reasons, but your only evidence of this is your own emotions" - No, there has been a substantial pile of lies fed to the public, most posing as moralistic justification for invasion, and this alone is enough to question the validity of such a rushed war."
Please, if you would, tell me a few of these "lies" and your credible evidence thereof. I'm dying to hear. As far as you not believing we were "attacked", it's fair to say that's your belief. You have it in your head, without any evidence mind you, that our own forces, under the auspices of Bush, flew those jets into the WTC. You've said as much. Now maybe it's splitting hairs but that is not an attack. Call it what you will, but the fact that you so need to believe such an absurdity is illustrative of ALL your views and arguments. When I post my belief that this war is warranted because of the nature of the attacks of 9-11 and the need to preempt those that have the means to assist those who continually attack us, you of course think this is a call for "war and death" and that I've swallowed some party lie. You can't accept that you are in an extreme minority and maybe there's a reason for that. Do you really believe that you are one of a few who have somehow figured out the "lie". You flatter yourself. Your fury at the "lies" and treason you see all around you is a symptom of some personal issue. "Challenging" other people who disagree with you is merely that; an empty fratboy tactic well used when one is safe by virtue of distance. By the way I am male and would welcome the spectacle of your prowess in any arena. Look POIO, I'm sure you're a okay guy. I mean you know PHP so you can't be all bad. But your macho posturing and narrow-mindedness are laughable. The irony is that you are so quick to condemn ANYONE who is the least bit conservative as a brainwashed sheep when, in fact, you toe the party line completely.
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Someone taged me inby Scottie Monday, Apr. 07, 2003 at 1:31 AMThis post is a touch messy because I realised after reading a little way that you arent a person who argues to prove a philosophy - you argue to assertain if you are superior.
Anyone can paint any picture they'd like of any scenario and it doesn't make it so. - Yup remember that applies to yourself OK now as to my reply to your reply And thus ours have about as much relevance as theirs, if that. - The "if that" merely shows that your ideals dont coincide with your own argument. Besides that the rest of it is just the point I was making. Thanks for correcting yourself but it is ok i did it already. "And yet we still feel compelled to bring a big heaping dish of democracy over to china as well. Huh. " - now we get to my second point which is that since the first point is true one needs to look somwhere other than the age of the country for the value of its morals. "This sort of moral equality places you on very dangerous philosophical ground." - I care. Really. - I hate to give an example for the obvious but for example Nazism is a "culture". If you dont care about any of these differences then you cannot logically have conclusions. (because then there would be no right and wrong) So by your logic we would have a president we elected, - I was backing Gore but the system, no matter how flawed you might believe it to be, resulted in Bush winning. As a result he is your president until the next election. a nuisance but elections are laregly propoganga competitions anyway a 1 or 2% difference (or whatever it was) means both leaders are just about as legitilate as each other.. By the way we dont have a system where the government obeys all the whims of the people (although in this case the people want to win the war) because individual people like yourself usualy can't see the big picture. Im sure someone as smart as you has already figured that out and I dont need to give examples. however the balance between the disorganized will of the people and the dictatorship of the few is made by using an election system (it also makes it all cheeper). Im sure there are lots of books that could explain that one to you. "false pretense of iraq's involvement in 9/11" that was a very small reason.. and Im pretty sure there is an equally small (but not necesserily insignificant) conection. "interim powers " - Im not sure where this applies to my argument... - but if you are a defender of the constitution dont you want china to have somthing similar also? or is it that your defense of the constitution is either selfish "we will have it but they wont" or cynical "i'll pretend i like it just to prove a point because I think he likes it" "Careful what words you try to put in my mouth, you may get them crammed right back down your throat. " -- -- FIRSTLY note how I use words like "If you believe" because I knew I was extrapolating. You are the one who has fallen on his face here because I did not put words in your mouth.. you only though that because you swallowed them. If we are to go "high context" (although we seem to be both low context) and say that I have - then in the same way as you I may have over assumed what you were saying just as you seem to have falsely assusmed my position (you seem to have assumed I am a standard republican. If there are no concepts that I can take to be yours from your argument it seems that your "facts" have no conclusions that follow as a matter of logic.. Interesting... Oh and sometimes you say somthing stupid and then claim that you didnt mean it.. thats a nice one also Ok now you're just making shit up. PUT THE BONG DOWN. - A truely skillful rebutal! (sarcasm intended) And a nice piece of bait. I see your tactic. By the way i dont have a bong (I would only bother to say that to you because you might not understand). Anyone who would argue that is clearly out of touch with how incredibly wonderful all things american are. - what is it that you care about? In general there is more of the stuff that most people care about in america. But you may or may not think so thats up to you. go somwhere else if you like. Where did we hide our culture anyways? Seems we used to have one, somewhere... - look in a dictionary as to what culture is. If you argue that you obviously haven't lately. it is called education.. get some. I am really dissapointed with your answer I thought you were saying that you were a smart person but what you have done is presented a position which is not really a position at all.. In the first section you switch arguments because it is convenient in the middle you complain alot about the USA without any reference to how the USA situation is WORSE or EQUAL to the Iraq situation in the areas that you have highlighted in the US system. You reject my ability to extrapolate from your arguments because the fact that you say something does not imply anything. (ie that you talked about bush being un democratic doesnt necesserily then mean that is a reason why you dislike bush) and in the last part you use a set of "throw away lines" which obviously are useless but at least fill the gap where an argument should be.
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Pegging the peopleby Scottie Monday, Apr. 07, 2003 at 2:43 AMI dont suppose POIO (that sly dog) is a salesman as well as a web designer?
That sort of role teaches you to say you can do everything and to enjoy milking people with ridiculous fees.. Not that thats a bad thing haha
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AMARICA!!!!by AMARICAN!!!! Friday, Apr. 11, 2003 at 2:44 PMHAHAHAHAHA
SADDAMA OSAMA WE GOT YOURE OIL NOW BOYEEE!!! WHACHOO GONNA DO!!! WHO CARES IF AMARICA DIDNT NOT FIND ANY WMD!! SADDAMA OSAMA IS A PUNK!! WHO CARES IF AMARICA STAGES TOPPLED STATUES!!! THIS IS AMARICA!! WE DO WHAT WE WANT!! WHAT WE SAY GOSE BEYOTCH!! AMARICA!!!
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LMAOby George Washington Friday, Apr. 11, 2003 at 3:28 PM"AMARICA!!!!
by AMARICAN!!!! • Thursday April 10, 2003 05:44 PM HAHAHAHAHA SADDAMA OSAMA WE GOT YOURE OIL NOW BOYEEE!!! WHACHOO GONNA DO!!! WHO CARES IF AMARICA DIDNT NOT FIND ANY WMD!! SADDAMA OSAMA IS A PUNK!! WHO CARES IF AMARICA STAGES TOPPLED STATUES!!! THIS IS AMARICA!! WE DO WHAT WE WANT!! WHAT WE SAY GOSE BEYOTCH!! AMARICA!!!" Hahahahahaha, you got the Neocon patter down just right!!! LMAO!!
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Except...by Pissed Off in Ohio Friday, Apr. 11, 2003 at 4:02 PMHe/She forgot to put down liberals and heich heil ann coulter, fox, rush limbaugh and the head bastard, dubya. Oh well, live and learn, or in the neocons, live and DIE MOTHERFUCKER DIE!!!
** deducts 2 points from the score card **
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TROLLby Haha, anti-war protestors, sad you lost? Friday, Apr. 11, 2003 at 4:19 PMI think you forget many liberal Democrats are now in favor for this war. Not really because they believe in it, but just because they know the majority of Americans (80%) support it. Why don't you join them?
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Fuck you trollby Pissed Off in Ohio Friday, Apr. 11, 2003 at 4:26 PMYou are vile, worthless, degenerate scum. How did you figure out how computers work? Damn gui's, damn them to hell.
And you assholes will have to take me down by force. I will never, ever, join your ranks you murdering fuckstains. And your numbers lie. So do you. 5-10% of america supports this war, the rest just want it over. And don't forget for a second that we are definately recording the names of everyone who supported this shit. That crap the nazi apologists tried after ww2, blaming all the people of germany for the nazi crimes, will not cut it here. We know who is to blame. You. So just shut the fuck up, crawl back under your rock, and hope we forget the little bit of flatulence you call community interaction when the time of reckoning comes. And it will come. And all you motherfuckers will pay.
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Actually Moron...by Diogenes Friday, Apr. 11, 2003 at 4:26 PM...you lost too. This country has survived for 200 plus years under a Constitution. It was a unique experiment. Free Citizens governing their own affairs.
We live in a nation which is supposed to governed by laws and not by a leader free to wage war at will. The Founding Fathers established a nation with a Government held in restraint so as to protect the liberties of it's citizens. We now have a cabal that is shredding the Constitution, your rights, your children's rights and is bring calumny upon this nation. This is not, and should not be a day of rejoicing, what has died is not an Iraqi Dictator but the Soul of a Dream called America. Sadly you are too stupid to see it. Ever read the Constitution, Washington's Farewell Address, or The Federalist Papers? I thought not.
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TROLLby TROLL says you lost Friday, Apr. 11, 2003 at 4:34 PMHmm, interesting, when you guys lose, instead of admitting defeat you began ranting and trying to justify your stance when as each day passes your "justifications" against this war crumbles. You guys are really proud, I'll admit that. I support this war, i also want it over soon, dont ever think that anybody wants war. because noone does....... no right-thinking person anyways. I'm glad democracy works. Otherwise, Americans would be unable to protect themselves and enslaved people would never breathe free all thanks to a small group of loud protestors. Go crawl under your communist manifestos and live in fear from the great power of democracy!
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HEHEHEby fresca Friday, Apr. 11, 2003 at 4:42 PM"And your numbers lie. So do you. 5-10% of america supports this war, the rest just want it over."
EXCELLENT. Did you really write that? It's all a big lie? That one will be in the email directly as the line of the day. LOL POIO you are amazing. God I wish someone would do a documentary on you. Pure schizophrenia.
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my my my...by anti-empire Wednesday, Apr. 16, 2003 at 7:27 PM...looks like the reichtards have come out to play. interesting beyond reckoning that us fascists show up to gloat about the latest series of crimes committed by their state and ignore the welath of data at the beginning of the post.
hey! US REICHTARDS! you live in a crypto-fascist nation-state! you are tools! wake the fuck up! read the list of evidence above and stop bending over for the mcmotherfucking empire!
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Piss Off!by True American Wednesday, Apr. 16, 2003 at 7:37 PManti-empire--
You need to fuck yourself with a hammer and sickle. Who really cares what the US did in the past? That's irrelevant in comparison to the pressing needs of the present. The US needs oil and it needs a stable junta in Iraq. All this talk of "liberation" is made up for the liberal idiots who are addicted to the TV. All this talk of WMD is a solid pretext to get rid of the horrid Hussein regime. It doesn't matter what his credentials are, he defied us, and so he's out. We will put in another guy whp follows orders better. If you don't like it, get the hell out of America. It's time to step up to the plate and get things done, and we don't need to traitorous whiners getting in the way with all of the inconvenient history that you bring up. I can tolerate liberals, since they help sell American power to gullible, but you closet reds with historical facts are just plain dangerous and need to be banned.
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True Americanby Pissed Off in Ohio Wednesday, Apr. 16, 2003 at 9:30 PMFirst off, thank you for not mincing words. All this bullshit about liberation and WMD gets pretty fucking stale after a while.
That said, let me ask you this. When the oil runs out, and it will run out, what do we do then? Do the powers that be have a plan to deal with that scenario? If so, why not implement it now? Not to play the liberal violin but must we really go kill for a second rate solution? Are we pursueing this flawed plan (reliance on petroleum) for the sake of milking the oil cow for as much as its worth? If so, who exactly is being milked? The people of America? So why shouldn't we object? We're dieing right? We're killing for it. Why do these things simply to forestall the inevitable? Or do our leaders not have a plan for when the day comes that we run out of the good stuff? If so, perhaps they could stop stiffling alternative energy research and let us figure out a better way. But that would infringe on the well establish oil cash cow I suppose. So again, why shouldn't we object? We're obviously being milked, potentially by a bunch of shortsited opportunistic profiteers who give not two shits about anyone but themselves. Also, why must if be fossil fuel oil? Why not hemp oil? Or corn oil? Hell we're paying farmers not to grow for the sake of big business farm conglomerates, lets let them grow deer corn or hemp or something and distill it down to a combustable fuel source. For that matter, don't the zoning laws in place in urban development seem structured to require mass consumption of gas? Have you considered why? Wouldn't it be nice to walk to work? But that would infringe on the powers of our police, who's harrassment techniques and ability to decern rich/poor is largely dictated by people driving places and what vehicles they're driving in. The commute is a distinctly american concept. Sure other people in other countries drive to work. But we drive 50 miles to work. Thats fucking absurd. Just another tool to further oppression of the masses with a military state in all but name, as well as racial / income segregation, which you guys may be in love with but for those of us on the losing end of that stick it is getting pretty damn old. And naturally it keeps us chugging down oil that we didn't really need to consume anyways. So again, why shouldn't we dissent? Whats in it for us? There's plenty in it for the 'haves', where's the light at the end of the tunnel for the the 'havenots'? That bullshit tax cut? Fuck that. Poor people barely pay federal 'taxes' anyways, all the real robbery is hidden behind the guise of 'social security'. If you guys want to win some public support you'll end that bullshit right now. I know, I know, ''we've begun it, how can we end it". Just do it. Its communism anyways, and don't you guys always say you hate that? Certainly there are no easy answers, but the problems that plague us today aren't going anywhere, and butchering our way to a bigger pot of oil will do nothing for the long term viability of our nations 'plan'. We need to take our medicine and come up with a better way. I think at heart that is what many protesters are fighting for. Not so much an end to all war, thats pretty unrealistic, certainly not in support of saddam, fuck that asshole, but we want our slice of the pie, we want that better way. We want to no longer be cattle furthering the thinly vieled ambititions of our corporate / government masters. We want a system not designed to be illogical. These things are inevitable anyways. One way or another we will have them, the question is will you give them to us or will we take them by force? Because if there's one thing this war has demonstrated, its that without oil your forces (our military) are completely powerless, and the closer we come to running out of black gold, the statistically better our chances of victory in battle become. So one way or another, we will win. We'd like to do it peacefully. We'd like to walk into a better world hand in hand. If we did so, we could lead the rest of the world into our creation with open arms. The world you're fighting for though is violent, and dark, and bloody, and the base illogical nature of it will doom it to failure in the long run. So why not co-operate with us and we will all win, together. Please note, my lack of mention of the suffering we are imposing now is not to discount it at all, just acknowledgement that you don't care, so I've tried to set that aside for the sake of this discussion. Make no mistake though, their plite weighs heavily on my mind. And the supreme futility of their agony, thats probably the worst part. I wish you would consider it more before you start whining about 'but we need oil or our crap might not make it to the shelves of McCrap on time!! We might not make it to our jobs of greasing cog #151235677 on time! WE MIGHT BE LATE!!!'. Tell that to Ali. I bet he really cares about whether or not Walmarts toilet paper selection is freshly stocked. Just my perspective from the other side of the coin...
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True Americanby Scottie Thursday, Apr. 17, 2003 at 1:07 AMWhen the oil runs out, and it will run out, what do we do then?
- use the next best sorce of energy like everyone else - whether that is hydro power wind power nuclear power etc. What do you suggest? do you have a better alternative? Do the powers that be have a plan to deal with that scenario? - there are no powers "that be" unless you mean the UN. And I expect they plan to set up a comittee and discuss it for a few years before deciding to agree to disagree. The US has no control over the oil supply running out by itself. the US accounts for only about 20% of this sort of energy consumption and this is a decreacing percentage. If you remove that 20% totally the oil reserves will last only a few years longer.. A very short sighted solution Of course I have seen many suggestions for alternative energy and almost all of them cost too much to make them economical and get too little energy. If it was worth while some country somwhere would try it unless you are suggesting the US has a monopoly on the specific technology.. in which case.. I guess they do have a plan.
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Memo to Scottieby Ari Fleischer Thursday, Apr. 17, 2003 at 7:36 AMScottie, have you ever considered a career as White House Press Secretary? You sure do know how to spin!
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urrk.. well if you hate Americaby Lucius Saturday, Apr. 10, 2004 at 9:44 PMI am always amazed (though rarely surprised) at the number of people who get offended by information. It's as if the facts themselves are an attack on their holy patriotism. How do we define patriotism, then--"every nation for itself?" Scarf up the oil where we can get it, preemptive venture capitalism, no regard for international protocol, an end to the global peace effort? Yay--utter chaos, and we come out on top of the pile of rubble! This means a return to kingdoms and empires, which is ironic, considering that empire is a favorite buzzword that the selfsame "patriots" use to mock we so-called liberals.
There is a bit of a tautology at work here: all the talk of "well you hate America then why don't get out" assumes that all liberals in this country, or anyone who opposed war in Iraq, is jaded and resentful. I don't see a lot of left-wingers saying that they actually dislike the country as a whole; quite the contrary, I hear a lot of praise for the visions and accomplishments but also sadness that certain policies (interventionism with financial motives, for example) have tainted the Dream. This is not the same as hatred. On the other hand, the biggest problem that I see in this country right now is a kind of "unconditional love" for America, in which people assume that to be patriotic, you have to accept every decision made in Americans' name, even if a lot of citizens of this country do not support those decisions and they run against the grain of principles stated in the US Constitution. Ironically, the same people tend to be extremely partisan right-wing Republicans. A lot of them actually seem to believe that whatever _Republicans_ do in everyone's name is automatically right, no matter what the effect on domestic or foreign affairs. So, "patriots" think that dissent is all right, as long as it means that Republicans get to bash liberals about being too wussy when it comes to war, or whining about wanting fair elections. On the other hand, when Democrats, Greens, Libertarians and Independents talk about corporate welfare, campaign finance, or the fact that a US doctrine of preemptive strike could destabilizing the whole globe, these patriots act like anyone who disagrees with the GOP is a commie insurrectionist. What they really mean is, "hey, stop cutting in on our political empire." It is not an issue of whether liberals are real Americans; it is a matter of whether the far-right can deal with the REAL America, which is technically still a democracy. This means a nation where different sides have their say, and hopefully everyone emerges the wiser for it. I would like to propose one solution to this impasse, at the risk of turning the tables on the folks saying "why don't you just move to Canada, hippie." What if all the far-right Republicans seceded from America, declaring themselves a sovereign nation? This would allow them to continue laying their plans for a global empire, unfettered by we granola-eating peaceniks (and all the other millions of people who aren't of exactly the same mind as themselves). No, seriously, hear me out--it would be like a commune, but really big. It would seem like they were doing all right pillaging the Third World for exports and facilitating coups by neo-fascist dictators, except for one small fact: their economy would be based almost entirely on giving people more and more tax breaks. This state of affairs would eventually leave Neo-America's public works and social services in such a state of disarray that traffic, police, sanitation, welfare, and mental health systems would all go belly up. Eventually they would resort to taking out multi-trillion-dollar loans from "the Other America," which, by that point, would have developed a multi-party voting system ("Our motto: everyone gets counted, even in Florida), and co-facilitated global nuclear disarmament. Patriots? You've got to be kidding me. Patriots believe in peace, justice, and equal representation. From what I've seen over my relatively short life, the kinds of people who generally rant about the "damn liberals" support tax cuts for the rich, rigged elections and census procedures, interventionism that favors US financiers, a US military presence in every corner of the world (even where we are really, really not wanted), debate tactics like finger-pointing to deflect key criticisms, and reducing most of the third world to a giant Wal-Mart factory built on the backs of underpaid workers and child labor. As a side-note, has anyone surfing this kind of message board ever run into a user who smacks of disinformation? I ask because I believe that I have run into this at least once before, quite some time ago. If the rumors are true, disinfo agents have a very specific MO: toss out an occasional thoughtful comment, interspersed with inane insults and baiting language, meant to goad the more incisive activists into losing their original point and/or getting so frustrated that they quit. It's reminiscent of CIA's Cointelpro program (you are on the Internet right now--if you haven't heard of it, look it up). I don't want to give anyone license to be unduly paranoid, so please don't go all "they're out to get me".. but in light of cecil's timeline, would a bit of disinfo on the Web be all that surprising? www.freewebs.com/para_explorer
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One problem with your ideaby evil Republican Sunday, Apr. 11, 2004 at 4:01 AMAsking us to succeed from America is like asking someone to get out of his own home. We are the ones who are (mostly) happy with things the way they are. The libs are the whiner, hateful anti-American bigots. So why should we have to leave or segregate ourselves?
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disinfo meat puppetsby prole Sunday, Apr. 11, 2004 at 5:00 AMyer right Lucius,
they are like lice here. I wish LA IMC had a compost bin like Portland or there were more unpaid staff working the boards like SF IMC but for some reason the community at LA can't summon the personnel to moderate the site in order to accomplish the clean up these ill informed, splotches of obviously sick individuals. This is a well researched post by cecil and a valuable reference to use. I've saved it on my library.
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happy with which America?by lucius Sunday, Apr. 11, 2004 at 9:14 AMto "evil Republican:"
I suppose that it doesn't take a trained specialist to bait and inflame. Well… on second thought, I'm guilty of just that in my own post, so maybe there are no real good guys here. (Conservatives: don't be afraid to occasionally admit to your own failings! Or would that automatically make you Progressives?) Either way, if you are out to take a jab, why not give it a bit of style and panache? This way, everyone gets to exercise their intellect and learn new vocab, instead of the same old "your stupid," "no, your stupider" that has diluted the content of so many Internet forums. Now, point-by-point: "Asking us to [secede] from America is like asking someone to get out of his own home." Yes, kinda, but it's voluntary; no one has to ask. Spelling and definitions aside, I was really just trying to be ironic, not to propose a scenario that would ever happen. I like the fact that many voices are represented in America, and there have been times when speakers from the Far Right gave me a fresh perspective on matters like state rights, gun control, and civil liberties. It depends on the person, what they have to say, and most importantly, whether they are sincere or follow a covert agenda. A lot of neo-cons, in my opinion, take advantage of the more principled breed of conservatives (who are often from working class backgrounds), when mainly they are in it to get rich and help out their rich friends "We are the ones who are (mostly) happy with things the way they are." Well, you can start by defining "we." Are you building an army, or planning a coup, or something? Are right-wingers allowed to have individual opinions? I think so. Secondly, could your happiness have anything to do with the fact that ultra-conservatives are currently running America in an autocratic, top-down fashion, and are trying to extend this kind of influence to the rest of the world? Since this is America, and America is all about democracy, would you also be happy if Democrats, Greens, Independents, and Libertarians had more of a say in politics? Because what seems to be making a lot of conservatives happy right now is the decided lack of attention to democratic values. Case in point: Jeb Bush and the Supreme Court working together to block the Florida recount. What I really hear these "happy right-wingers" saying is, "we want the US to be ruled by an authoritarian regime, made up of our kind of people." Why were you so down on Iraq, then? It seems like you would have fit in quite nicely there. "The libs are the whiner, hateful anti-American bigots." In lieu of any real arguments on your end, I just defined YOUR America for you. You want a Republican regime, plain and simple. You are happy to see the "haters" protesting behind fences in Free Speech Zones. You don't want The People to have a voice; you want YOUR people to have THE voice. In this light, I declare you about as fucking unAmerican as they come. PS: if you should choose to respond, please try to use actual logic and make an argument against my points. The infantile name-calling is cute, but it actually works against whatever cause you believe you are supporting, because no one who values reason takes you seriously whatsoever. All the same, I would welcome a proper debate, if any of the Conservatives lurking out there would step up to bat.
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the far left on some issues....by more rational Sunday, Apr. 11, 2004 at 10:07 AMThe radical left diverges with left-liberals on a lot of things.
Anarchists generally oppose state-run welfare, though they see the purpose of society as providing welfare. Communists support state welfare and nationalization of resources. Radical leftists generally support the 2nd amendment and are pro-gun. Granted, they want the guns to defend themselves against the police in the event of a revolution... but they tend to support gun ownership (and weapons production) rights. There's a radical religious Left, and they are against abortion. Their defense of civil liberties tends to also make them pro-choice. Some vegans also are against abortion. The radical position on gay marriage is "no marriage," At least not by the standards of the church and state. The main difference between the far right and the far left is regarding property rights. The right believe that property and the state are in opposition. The left believe that the state creates and protects property, and private property is the root of imperialism and war. The secondary difference is patriotism. The right are flag wavers, while the left are flag burners. The right think the left are angry and confused, and the left think the right are deluded and racist.
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to more rationalby .-. Sunday, Apr. 11, 2004 at 10:47 AMthat's a good job of labeling you've done and it is flawed.
But labels are a convenient way of visualizing things I guess, even if it is simplistic. Work on it.
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details..?by lucius Sunday, Apr. 11, 2004 at 11:16 AMI'm willing to hear you out, but whatever point you make is so generalized that it comes off sounding pretty weak. Do you want to qualify your accusation with examples?
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If you don't like America FUCK OFF TO NORTH KOREAby Bigfoot Sunday, Apr. 11, 2004 at 11:38 AMFucking Communist scum.
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Fair and Balance Response to Luciousby evil Republican Sunday, Apr. 11, 2004 at 12:40 PM“I suppose that it doesn't take a trained specialist to bait and inflame. Well… on second thought, I'm guilty of just that in my own post, so maybe there are no real good guys here. “
I fail to see how my comments were an attempt to bait or inflame. I was merely pointing out the facts as I see them. “Either way, if you are out to take a jab, why not give it a bit of style and panache? This way, everyone gets to exercise their intellect and learn new vocab, instead of the same old "your stupid," "no, your stupider" that has diluted the content of so many Internet forums.” Yawn. You’re boring me already. You’re verbose and pompous; you’re not nearly as poignant as your liberal dementia has you believing. In short, you are a typical leftist. “Now, point-by-point: Asking us to [secede] from America is like asking someone to get out of his own home." Yes, kinda, but it's voluntary; no one has to ask. Spelling and definitions aside, I was really just trying to be ironic, not to propose a scenario that would ever happen.” Well all irony and facetiousness aside, when right-wingers suggest that bitter leftist hit the door, they’re being quite serious. See, we simply can’t understand why you’d choose to remain in a situation that keeps you so dysphoric, when, obviously you leftists would be so much happier in the throngs of Stalin’s Russia, Kim Jung Il’s North Korea, or Communist China. If I were as distressed with the goings-on in America as typical leftists purport to being, I’d leave. I hear Australia’s nice. Perhaps New Zealand. But the world is a big place. There are always places I could go that might be more suitable to me. But then again, I love it here in America. I even loved it here when that philandering Clinton was President. You didn’t see me out in the streets with silly signs and such, attempting to inconvenience my fellow citizens. “I like the fact that many voices are represented in America, and there have been times when speakers from the Far Right gave me a fresh perspective on matters like state rights, gun control, and civil liberties. It depends on the person, what they have to say, and most importantly, whether they are sincere or follow a covert agenda.” Well good for you. It’s called Freedom of Speech, and it’s constitutionally guaranteed. Welcome to America. So while people like you are typically out in the streets exercising you freedom of speech, protesting, and demonstrating, people like me are typically defending your rights to do so by serving in the armed forces. I personally dedicated a decade of my life to serving this country in the armed forces. What have YOU done besides sit behind you little keyboard and peck, peck, peck – albeit with the utmost panache and flare, demonstrating, among other things, how you can string fancy vocabulary words together to “enlighten” your fellow Americans. Well hoo-dee-hoo and good for you. “A lot of neo-cons, in my opinion, take advantage of the more principled breed of conservatives (who are often from working class backgrounds), when mainly they are in it to get rich and help out their rich friends” Well Tiresias, since you’re so enlightened, why don’t you tell me which I happen to be? Am I a neo-con, or am I a conservative. Let’s just see how much it is that you presume to know. Notice dear reader, how Lucious throws in that stuff about “working class backgrounds” that smacks of Marxism, the Communist Manifesto, and the struggle to achieve socialist democracy. This has been the game of these little National Socialists for centuries now, but they steer clear of that descriptor these days, because Hitler tainted it for them but good. No, they prefer “Democratic Socialists”, “Progressives”, etc. But what they’d really prefer to do is to dispossess the middle class and the wealthy, and put the so-called “working class” in charge – the class that is atrophying every day in America due to middle class expansion. So, my dear commie friend, as you can see, I presume to know a lot about YOU as well. "We are the ones who are (mostly) happy with things the way they are." Well, you can start by defining "we." Are you building an army, or planning a coup, or something? Are right-wingers allowed to have individual opinions? I think so." What a wasted paragraph of text. What wasted bandwidth, which was required by all computers to download this blather. You know damned well who “we” are. “We” are those who politely inquire why “you” simply don’t get on that plane. As an American, you’re welcome in many countries around the world more suitable to you likings. And any American Consular Officer will gladly witness the renouncing of your citizenship. Simply report to the nearest American Embassy when you get to your new motherland, tell the man where to stick his Amerikkka, and clap your hands together with an essence of finality as your walking out the door. “Secondly, could your happiness have anything to do with the fact that ultra-conservatives are currently running America in an autocratic, top-down fashion, and are trying to extend this kind of influence to the rest of the world?” I’m not exactly sure to whom you’re referring exactly. Are you talking about Bush? If so, as I said previously, I was happy when Clinton was in office. “Since this is America, and America is all about democracy …” America is a Republic, not a Democracy. There’s a difference. “ … would you also be happy if Democrats, Greens, Independents, and Libertarians had more of a say in politics?” Well, Democrats get pretty much an equal say when I last checked. Don’t know if much has changed since yesterday though. Maybe there’s something going on that I don’t know about? Did all the Democrats that are currently in Washington get rounded up and herded off under the provisions of the Patriot Act or something? Perhaps I should turn on some Fox News and find out what the deal is… Nope, doesn’t look like much has changed since yesterday. But as far as the Greens and Libertarians go, the reason they have as little say as they do, is because they have very little TO SAY. Other than of course, “Save the baby seals, dude.”, “Have you hugged a tree today, man?”, “Hell no we shouldn’t drill for oil in Alaska. I’d rather pay $8 per gallon to OPEC!”, oh yeah and “Legalize pot.” Independents are where the game of politics is at though. The swing voters have very little to say. They let their votes do their talking for them. “Because what seems to be making a lot of conservatives happy right now is the decided lack of attention to democratic values.” It’s not just the conservatives. Tree hugging and banter about legalizing pot don’t really appeal to most of the country. “Case in point: Jeb Bush and the Supreme Court working together to block the Florida recount.” Are YOU STILL WHINING over that election?? Didn’t you know about the electoral college system BEFORE you went out to vote? GET OVER IT! GO ON WITH YOUR LIFE! If it was so devastating, why didn’t Al Gore make a bigger deal out of it? He laid down and let the big conspiracy take place, didn’t he? Maybe he was in on the whole thing, huh? Now imagine what kind of President he’d have been if he had gotten legitimately elected! The whole discussion suddenly becomes moot, doesn’t it? Leftists complain because Gore got “cheated”, but then they complain because he allowed it to happen! Talk about irony! “What I really hear these "happy right-wingers" saying is, "we want the US to be ruled by an authoritarian regime, made up of our kind of people." Well bud, then all I can say is get the peanut-butter out of your ears and start paying attention. If we wanted an authoritarian regime, you’d be in shackles or dead. All I hear from liberals and democratic socialists such as yourself is one hyperbole after another: “BLOOD FOR OIL!” “BUSH IS HITLER!!” “Why were you so down on Iraq, then? It seems like you would have fit in quite nicely there.” Review that inane comment again folks. It seems we neo-cons took out one of our own when we deposed that tyrant Hussein! Oops! Looks like we screwed up, huh? Well, at least we can thank that swell guy Clinton for looking out for our best interests during HIS administration, because we all know he didn’t do shit to deal with the Iraqi dictator. Thanks, Willy J. We just thought you were too busy getting head. Guess we were wrong, Clinton was on our side all along too. Of course, we’re obviously screwing up in this “War on Terrorism” too, because Lucious here seems to think we right-wingers, neo-cons, and such are the actual terrorists. By going after folks like Hussein, the Taliban, and Al Quaeda – things that the Democrats refused to do when they were in control – well, we’re just taking out our own ilk! Patently absurd. "The libs are the whiner, hateful anti-American bigots." In lieu of any real arguments on your end, I just defined YOUR America for you.” Well, now you’ve got MY ARGUMENT. I spent a good thirty minutes wasting my time typing up my vision of YOUR AMERICA. One in which tyrants such Saddam Hussein can freely operate his rape rooms, bin Laden can freely plot his next assault on the American way of life, and the critical issues become legalizing marijuana, saving the baby seals, forking out $50 for a tank of gas, and free love for everybody while the working class rises up to usurp the bourgeoisie and the plutocratic oligarchy, to become the NEW elite! Meet the NEW BOSS, WORSE THAN THE OLD BOSS! You thought 100 million dead in Russia was bad folks, well just wait until the commies take over America! Gulags for everybody! “You want a Republican regime, plain and simple.” I guess so. If by “Republican regime” you mean a freely elected conservative-minded President and Congress. “You are happy to see the "haters" protesting behind fences in Free Speech Zones.” Hey, at least we let them protest. We could just open Auschwitz back up and fly them all over there for disposition. You know how evil we “neo-cons” are. Yeah, I’m happy. No reason for these whack-jobs to be interfering with my morning commute to work or trips to Walmart. Keep ‘em in their little playpens. “You don't want The People to have a voice; you want YOUR people to have THE voice. In this light, I declare you about as fucking unAmerican as they come.” Hey! You can’t take that tone with me! After all, I’m the boss! I own the “means of production”. Type it up in a memo and have it on my desk by the a.m. and tone that attitude down Mister or I’ll have you “demonstrating” inside a sharks cage at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean! Get a grip, whacko. Take your meds and pipe down. “PS: if you should choose to respond, please try to use actual logic and make an argument against my points.” What points? That I should have been supporting Hussein instead of the liberation of Iraq?? Typical leftist idea of logic: take “night” and call it “day”, take “black” and rename it “white”. You wouldn’t know logic if it walked up and bit you on your pock-marked ass. “The infantile name-calling is cute, but it actually works against whatever cause you believe you are supporting, because no one who values reason takes you seriously whatsoever. “ You mean like calling someone you don’t know from Adam “un-American” because you suspect he might be a right-wing neo-con fascist? Yeah, they take you seriously, I’m sure……
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heh hehby Spoink Sunday, Apr. 11, 2004 at 3:24 PMwow, Mr. Evil that was sure
verbose and pompus heh heh. typical neo facist.
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labels & issuesby lucius Monday, Apr. 12, 2004 at 7:18 PMHey, Thanks for wasting your time on my behalf. I admit that I prejudged your message as mostly inane insults that detract from other people's attempts to examine the events described in the original material. It just seemed to me that things in this thread were degenerating to "all these leftist commie fucks should shut up or ship out." Oh, and while we're on the topic of unqualified name-calling, gross generalizations, and "inane" discourse, what do you call this?
"The libs are the whiner, hateful anti-American bigots. Still, I'm glad that you expounded. There seems to be general confusion going on about labels here. Conservative, Neo-Con, Liberal, Progressive, and--that old favorite of smear-mongers everywhere--Communist. Labels are intrinsically unreliable; there are too many conflicting perspectives among that people who go by a given label. When I said Neo-Con, for example it could have meant a hundred different things. What I meant was politicians who align themselves with a "conservative" stance, but are corporate whores more interested in financial gain than upholding standards of liberty, decency, and that old time religion. In my opinion, the positions that people take on specific issues matters more today than the umbrella term that people assign to try to make the whole thing seem more organized than it actually is. So, speaking for myself, I have positions on a number of things, and I can't tell you if they're all liberal. Last time I checked, they weren't Communist views. The Social Democrat stance, as modeled by Sweden, appeals to me on some levels, but that doesn't mean I consider it the pinnacle of civilization. So tell me, what does that make me? Do you actually believe that criticizing the current administration's stance of "pre-emptive strikes" makes one a Communist? What about the role in American society of concerned citizens questioning policy? Going to war under false auspices has become official policy; the current administration admits no wrong, and are therefore endorsing the preemptive strike position on behalf of Americans everywhere. Can you see why some people might be a little upset? You also seem voice assertions without any substance, like your pat brush-off when it comes to a presidential candidate's Brother using political clout to influence a national election. Should we just say "Well, it's over now; let's get on with the show?" >What a wasted paragraph of text. What wasted bandwidth, which was required by all computers to download this blather. You know damned well who “we” are. “We” are those who politely inquire why “you” simply don’t get on that plane. As an American, you’re welcome in many countries around the world more suitable to you likings. And any American Consular Officer will gladly witness the renouncing of your citizenship. Simply report to the nearest American Embassy when you get to your new motherland, tell the man where to stick his Amerikkka, and clap your hands together with an essence of finality as your walking out the door. Wow. That was just a massive unleashing of spite and hostility--again, without any real content. It mainly seems to me that you're capitalizing on a bunch of scornful stereotypes. You want to pigeonhole activists all over the country who are working to see certain principles represented in government, which IS their government, too. The fact of the matter is, there are a lot more grievances on the table than just hippies wanting to smoke pot and save the last mink slotted to become the sleeve of some rich woman's coat. I have mentioned a couple, but you seem to take the usual conservative stance of deflection through character attack. To be fair, you actually brought it down to earth a bit at one point in the post.. where was it.. “You want a Republican regime, plain and simple.” >" I guess so. If by “Republican regime” you mean a freely elected conservative-minded President and Congress. Then it defaulted back to >Get a grip, whacko. Take your meds and pipe down. Hey, I can play along. How's this: "You crypto-fascist post-post-modernist military-industrial-complex-cronie bourgeoisie slave-to-the-man!" Or how about "You pinko commie tree-hugger-granola-eater-folk-song-listening-save-the-whales-acid casualty!" Oh, here's my argument: "You make me want to puke. I would sooner eat dog food than listen to this tripe, moron." {yawn} www.freewebs.com/para_explorer/index.htm
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........by evil Republican Tuesday, Apr. 13, 2004 at 3:39 AMSince there was very little of content in that post, I’ll address the nuggets and dump the chaff:
“Do you actually believe that criticizing the current administration's stance of "pre-emptive strikes" makes one a Communist?” No. What makes you think I do? Did I write that? I don’t think I did. I think what I wrote was that your mention of the phase “working class backgrounds” smacked of Marxism. Either you are, or you are not, a socialist/communist. If you are, just say it. You’d be in good company here on Indymedia; it’s nothing to be ashamed of. But it would put you in direct opposition with the current social and economic structure of the American way of life. There’s a reason commies take so much grief in America when they unveil themselves. Communism/Socialism has historically ended up as totalitarianism, authoritarianism, and despotism every place it’s ever manifested itself. Americans in general want no part of it. “What about the role in American society of concerned citizens questioning policy?” It’s our civic duty to question policies. It’s also our civic duty to support responsible and worthy policies and leadership. It is not our duty to stir up hate and discontent with nasty mean-spirited rhetoric, metaphors comparing our elected leaders to Nazis, or that the intentions of our interventionist foreign policies are less than noble, without solid proof. The American left is repeatedly responsible for this sort of execrative behavior, and quite frankly, I find it appalling. “Going to war under false auspices has become official policy; the current administration admits no wrong, and are therefore endorsing the preemptive strike position on behalf of Americans everywhere.” Are you claiming that the Iraqi regime was in compliance with all U.N. mandates and resolutions? That it has never been the objective of the U.S. government to undermine that despot in past years? That there was never bi-partisan support for undermining or ridding the world of this brutal regime? That Saddam Hussein did not have a history of pre-emptive attacks on his neighbors, employment of chemical and biological weapons, or that he simply wasn’t’ an all around nasty guy that deserved to what he got? Or that it isn’t a good thing that he’s out of power and that the Iraqi people now have a chance at freedom? “Can you see why some people might be a little upset? “ Certainly I can. But after weighing most of the accusations and name calling, and employing a little reason and logic, personally I believe the good from this war has the potential to far outweigh the bad. Yes, it’s terrible so many people have paid the ultimate price. Yes, its tragic that WMDs were not found, or that that may have been used as the stick and carrot to break the inertia of the humongous political mule, that had rested on it’s laurels long enough. But I’m not one of those who think inaction is acceptable when it comes to the middle east, and yes, if we have to drag them into the twenty-first century kicking and screaming all the way, then so be it. If it’ll keep islamofascist religious lunatics from flying planes into our buildings, bombing our trains, or strapping explosives to their own children and sending them into the local pizza parlor to blow themselves up, then I’m all for it. But up until now, nothing our country has done thus far has prevented or even minimized such radical behaviors. “You also seem voice assertions without any substance, like your pat brush-off when it comes to a presidential candidate's Brother using political clout to influence a national election. Should we just say "Well, it's over now; let's get on with the show?" I think I was pretty clear on that. Get over it. There was no conspiracy. The system worked, exactly the way it is meant to work. Come November, provided enough people agree with you, paybacks can be a bitch. Be thankful you live in a nation that has term limits for its leaders. Most nations aren’t that lucky. Al Gore did the honorable thing by not making such a big deal and by stepping aside for the good of this nation. I respect him immensely for it. You, on the other hand, like most of the whining leftist, continue to cry and bellyache over it, demonstrating among other things, a complete lack of maturity and your babied ability to remain a sore loser.
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labeling by any other name...by lucius Tuesday, Apr. 13, 2004 at 6:32 AMSo your views aren't just a carbon-copied GOP partly line. Your views are still skewed by rabid hostility that takes precedence over your better points.
On the subject of Iraq, I was trying to address one fact: our pResident, and his cabinet, gave false auspices for going to war. They pushed a bunch of lies on the American people, then railroaded the rest of the world with a cocky "whether you like it or not" attitude. This has negatively affected many other countries' perception of the US. Moreover, the same dishonorable tactics have negatively affected Iraq's view of their Western "saviors," contributing to (but not causing) the current unrest over our interim occupation. And so on. and so on; I don't know why I bother, when someone will most likely respond to this post with another litany about liberals. ER: Listing the justifiable reasons for HOSTILITY toward Saddam Hussein's government was a classic deflection tactic. You gave no reason for anyone to believe that our leaders should have A) fabricated stories about WMDs, B) involved England in the Charade (we didn't win any popularity points with the English there), or C) bum-rush a war before giving sufficient grounds for the invasion. There are many other ways that we could have gone about it. It is also worth noting that the U.S. has not historically lived up to this image of the "vanquisher of despots." At various points, we have established mutually gratifying arrangements with quite a few of them, including Saddam Hussein. Pinochet also comes to mind. You also failed to address the consequences of the U.S.--clearly the most powerful nation on Earth--setting an international example with our "preemptive strike" doctrine. If I am in a room with someone who has a history of violence, should I "decapitate" them because I feel threatened? If this will be the new international precedent, I hope that you don't mind eating fish with three eyes, because I can think of a few countries that will be nuking each other any day now. Personally, I don't think it's worth the fallout, in every sense of the word. If you inferred Marxism from anything I said, you presumed wrongly. I support an economic model that includes safeguards against corporations running politics. This does not mean that I feel government should control industry. Our current political system is skewed toward the infamous "richest 1%." I stand by my opinion that you use the term "Communist" carelessly, especially that bit comparing it to the Social Democrat stance. >"...that the intentions of our interventionist foreign policies are less than noble, without solid proof..." Cecil's original post gives many examples. Or, you could just read What Uncle Sam Really Wants, by Noam Chomsky (available at http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/books/UncleSham.html). ER, though you do not seem "evil," per se, you are trying to get people on this board engaged in a futile, and decidedly hostile, discourse on why the left (whoever they are) are a bunch of... what was it... "whiner, hateful anti-American bigots." Your reasoning has some actual content, but it is poisoned. It is your prerogative to have a voice here, so fire away. I don't see myself getting much out of it, though, so watch me slink away like the liberal coward I am. You are hereby on my "ignore" list. Near the top of this thread, it seems that people were trying to engage one another in talking about US policy. People were discussing the wealth of information that Cecil provided, until some other folks decided to turn it into a forum for label-bashing rhetoric. As of right now, why not resume the original discussion? If memory serves, there was something about corrupt motives and dubious methods in American politics, from the WMD fiasco to the Iran-Contra scandal. Anyone who has trouble just "getting over it" when it comes to such indiscretions, chime in; my noise filters are in full gear. The unifying consensus here is that A) government officials sometimes follow patently corrupt tactics and policies, B) specific cases of corruption represent a larger trend among certain political "in-groups," and C) there will be dire consequences for the world if this goes unchecked. Call this a Declaration of Intent. Then we have people who took it upon themselves to attack any position along these lines. Some folks tried crashing the party, and it may have worked. This is not a debate on the fine points of conservative and liberal; it is an attempt to sabotage clarity with the inane. The bottom line is, their agenda really doesn't fit with the venue, so why are they here? They are saturating this forum with derisive comments, and mixing in an occasional political stance just to give themselves an appearance of sincerity. I am not buying it. Please, people, just find an internet forum on Why Liberals Suck. There are places where your spite and spittle would be welcomed with open arms. Here, you just muddy the waters. If anyone else wants to salvage this thread, in spite of the numerous attempts to derail it, please jump back in. If not, thanks for trying, Cecil.
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Worthy of Another Lookby Not a Jingo Friday, Mar. 23, 2007 at 8:01 AMI likes. So should you.
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