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by Maria Botey Pascual
Sunday, Nov. 24, 2002 at 3:43 PM
From Narco News Bulletin.
A Conversation with Gustavo de Grieff.
Translated from the Spanish. Por Esto!
November 14, 2002
A Conversation with Gustavo de Greiff November 14, 2002 The only path to ending narco-trafficking is drug legalization: that is to say, the regulation of its production and sale. That is the thesis maintained for almost ten years by Gustavo de Greiff, former Attorney General of Colombia and former ambassador of the same country in Mexico, who says that legalization doesn’t have to produce a rise in the consumption of drugs and, in fact, will end the violence, corruption and the progressive breakdown of society caused by narco-trafficking. According to de Greiff, it is precisely drug prohibition – a policy that gained force in the 1960s and 70s under the government of president Richard Nixon as a response to street violence provoked by competition between crime organizations for consumer markets. What provokes this violence, as well as the commerce, is its illegal nature, producing enormous profits for drug traffickers and corrupt authorities, a business that will be difficult to stop as long as there are consumers. Currently an investigator with the Colegio de México, the former attorney general of Colombia explained in an interview with the daily Por Esto! that while he did that job he realized the futility of the drug war: “The police arrested the drug traffickers, dismembered cartels, confiscated property, destroyed laboratories, intercepted drug shipments and, in spite of all that, nothing happened in the general panorama of the drug fight, because it kept coming to the consumer markets, among those, the most important, in the United States. The business is so profitable that if you disintegrate one cartel, other narco-traffickers take its place in the market.” De Greiff used studies produced by the White House Office of Drug Control to demonstrate that although the drug business is gigantic, it doesn’t rise to the $500 billion dollar figure that has been used to justify the anti-drug policy. Rather, American consumers spend $57 billion dollars a year on illicit drugs or on licit drugs used illegally. To produce a kilo of cocaine and transport it to the United States requires an investment of $2,500 dollars. Later, the North American dealer mixes it with other substances such as talcum powder or flour to increase its weight and distributes it in the street at a value of $20,000 to $30,000 dollars. The enormous profits stay mainly in the United States, while a minor part of the $57 billion dollars mentioned goes to Latin American traffickers. The Harms of Prohibition Beyond the street violence and the disintegration of the social fabric, narco-trafficking causes an unmeasured enrichment of the traffickers and also the corrupt officials, he stressed. “A prohibited business can not have success without the collaboration by authorities who close their eyes to the transport or sale of the drug in exchange for money or favors, the same in producer countries and consumer countries. The corruption reaches individuals at all levels of authority, from the police, to the Customs officers, intelligence agents, airports, maritime port managers and, of course, the politicians,” he commented, adding that the profits have also been used to buy arms that benefit violent groups active in the countries of this hemisphere. De Greiff stressed the importance of legalization of the business, transport and sale of drugs so that the business stops being so monstrously obscene, and to convert it into an ordinary business that additionally will produce taxes that can be invested in the good of society. At the same time, he underlined the billions of dollars that are spent annually to repress drug trafficking that will then be able to be dedicated to other goals. And it’s that in the past ten years drug consumption in the United States has remained more or less stable, but in the same time period the government budget to fight drugs has gone from a billion dollars to seventeen-and-a-half billion dollars (or the more than 18 billion requested for the 2003 budget). This demonstrates the war on drugs is not effective at all, he said. Fear of Legalization The doctor in law and former Colombian ambassador in Mexico indicated that one of the great difficulties in bringing about legalization is the fear by the population that drugs will be easier to obtain and raise the number of users. However, the fact is that although drugs are prohibited, they are reachable by any individual in any city of this continent who desires them, he remarked. “Drugs are already everywhere, except that because they are prohibited, small consumers that should be treated as patients go to jail – the bad joke is that nobody is rehabilitated in jail – and the quality of the product is worsened by the elements used to adulterate them (to increase their weight and the corresponding profits), causing more damages to the consumer than if they were pure, as medical research has shown on various occasions.” In this sense, de Greiff used the example of the legalization of alcohol in the United States, which ended the business of the large mafias involved in it, and did not produce a rise in consumption. “The consumption did rise a little while later due to the psychological problems related to World War II,” he said. To support his thesis, he cited the study conducted in 1994 by the New York Bar Association called, “A Wiser Path: Ending Prohibition,” in which a committee of experts (politicians, economists, sociologists, doctors, chemists), after analyzing the issue of supposed rise in consumption under legalization, came to the conclusion that the regulation of the production and sale of drugs would not increase consumption notably, as long as legalization is accompanied by medical treatment for addicts and intelligent, honest, educational campaigns to discourage drug use. “Not the stupid and tricky campaigns like the ones used today, that say if you smoke marijuana or try cocaine two or three times you will become an addict: the young people learn for themselves it is not the truth, conclude that everything said is a lie, and decide to continue consuming,” de Greiff commented. He also cited the example of tobacco use, that in spite of being more addictive than cocaine or marijuana according to scientists, has been substantially reduced due to informative campaigns and without causing the damages of prohibition “that would bring the formation of illegal tobacco trafficking gangs, violence and corruption." The Farse of the Drug War Another of the obstacles to legalizing drugs are all the individuals involved in the corruption, said de Greiff. “As has been said, all the agencies involved in repression and monitoring, as well as the politicians: Some because their jobs would be eliminated, and others because they would stop receiving the benefits of narco-trafficking through bribes. Their business would end.” He cited examples that have been publicly exposed of police who seize drugs but only declare half the volume and sell the rest, cases in which large shipments are seized in order to free up other routes through which larger quantities are passing, DEA agents who target some money-launderers while they protect others who practice the same activity, or politicians scandalized by their own drug consumption in private but who promise to combat narco-trafficking in public, while they receive the profits from the corruption and they are also using drugs. De Greiff mentioned, at the same time, the political game that is played with the numbers of arrests and seizures, that the governments use to publicize their own success in the drug war and to continue justifying the repressive policy, “when, in reality, there is no such success although they imprison more and more drug dealers, since the drugs continue flowing in the same quantities to the consumer markets.” The government most interested and invested in the policy of the drug war and at the same time is its grand promoter, he said, is the United States government, which has used the policy to subjugate the countries of Latin America. On one end they use the “de-certification” process. De Greiff notes: “They’ve used this on multiple occasions as a threat when U.S. conditions that have nothing to do with the drug war are imposed, as was the case in 1995 when the U.S. Ambassador in Colombia conditioned that country’s certification on changes in a banana export agreement with Europe.” On the other end they use political and military intervention, more and more, to try and maintain domination and protect the warehouse of cheap natural resources for the United States. Politics, the Media, and Legalization Remembering that on various occasions politicians throughout the continent have announced their support for legalization (including Mexican President Vicente Fox who once publicly expressed the need that, one day, drugs be legalized), the former Attorney General of Colombia commented that the majority of Latin American politicians are convinced that the drug war is a farce or at very least ineffective: “I speak with many politicians. And many tell me that I am right, that it is the only solution, but they don’t dare say so publicly because they will then be accused of connections with narco-trafficking, like what happened to me.” Asked about the possibility that the politicians will decide to speak out and promote what they see as necessary – legalization – de Greiff said that, “what is needed is courage, and, disgracefully, there are few brave politicians in the world. But if there were, and above all if various Latin American countries would unite against this farce, without fear of the economic sanctions by the United States, a new day would dawn.” Completing his suggestion, he said that one way to pressure the politicians would be to demonstrate the failure of the repressive drug policies to the public: “Then the politician will be afraid to be associated with a failed policy. At least the honest or pragmatic politician would feel that way. As for the dishonest politician, we have to take away his business, and that would be made possible by legalization.” Another problem that the legalization proposal encounters, he continued, is found in the grand disinformation campaigns promoted, above all, by the most interested party: the United States government, a game in which journalists are paid (with money or with information) to affirm again and again that the only solution to the problem of narco-trafficking is repression and that, if legalized, drug consumption would rise. “That’s how it’s understood, including in Colombia, with all the evils that the production and sale of drugs have cost, a recent poll says that only 36 percent of the population is in favor of legalization, and that’s because they are afraid of expanding the drug problem,” he said. For that reason, he insisted, it is necessary to continue educating the population, showing the people the lies that are said about the drug war, demonstrating that it is not certain that, in spite of the continuing arrests and seizures, the narco-trafficking is not being stopped; showing them that the corruption continues growing and it’s not the case that repression is beneficial. The supply is available to anyone in spite of prohibition. Teaching people to avoid consumption, and these other points, are necessary topics of information campaigns so that the people are careful about drugs, while the addict should be offered the chance to enter a health clinic and not prison. It’s already been demonstrated that treatment can succeed, he said. Decriminalization and the Benefits of Legalization Gustavo de Greiff said that in spite of the obstacles in the path toward legalization – “it may be that I don’t live to see it because I’m already many years old (he was born in 1929), but I know that some day drugs will be legalized and it will be shown that we were right” – there are helpful signs in the world such as the experience of decriminalization in Holland, England, recently in Portugal, and the decriminalization of marijuana in some of the 50 United States, with more voices throughout the planet who clamor now for a change in strategy in relation to drugs. However, he stressed that decriminalization is not enough: It would only avoid that the consumers go to jail or that the dealers have a more peaceful consumer, but it will not end narco-trafficking nor the current corruption by authorities who enrich themselves at alarming levels while those who suffer are the consumers and the general population. The solution of the problem of drug trafficking is legalization of drugs, he repeated, and he specified that legalization doesn’t have to mean sale in open markets but, rather, the regulation of the business, the production, the transport and sale, with permits for each activity, control over the quality of the product so it is not adulterated, and legal limits such as not selling drug near educational institutions, not advertising their sale in the media, etc., and always accompanied by prevention campaigns against abusive consumption and offering medical treatment to addicts. De Greiff concluded that this is the way to destroy the business of the narco-traffickers, to end the corruption and the criminal violence that this illicit activity brings, to stop drug money from being used to buy weapons, and to stop the United States from using drug policies to maintain a subjugated Latin America. He added, ironically, “Of course, beyond direct economic pressures, currently the government in Washington counts with new excuses to do that.” Publisher’s Note: Former Attorney General and Ambassador Gustavo de Greiff will be one of the featured speakers at the historic, first-ever, América wide drug legalization summit, titled “OUT FROM THE SHADOWS: Ending Drug Prohibition in the 21st Century,” February 12-15, 2003, in Mérida, Yucatán. To register to attend this important gathering, or for more information, see: http://www.stopthedrugwar.org/shadows/
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by me
Sunday, Nov. 24, 2002 at 3:58 PM
Tyisha the drunk, drug infested homoesuxual lesbian, has been in hell now for almost four years.
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by Neurochemical Admirer
Sunday, Nov. 24, 2002 at 9:47 PM
www.biopsychiatry.com
PSYCHOPHARMACOLOGY & THE GOVERNMENT OF THE SELF
DAVID HEALY
Here is a picture of Jean Delay wearing the dark coat, along with Pierre Pichot on his right and Pierre Deniker on his left, with Bernard Sadoun, Jean Thuillier and Thérese Lemperière to Pichot’s right (Slide 1).
Within the walls of the hospital you see behind them, the ice has just melted -- literally. Following the ideas of Henri Laborit, they had been giving chlorpromazine as part of an effort to enable the body to be cooled down with ice, in the hope that cooling would produce an anti-stress effect that would be useful in the treatment of nervous problems. The nursing staff observed that it made little difference whether chlorpromazine was given with or without ice - it was beneficial either way. Delay and his team had stumbled into the crucial discovery of the antipsychotic effect of chlorpromazine that underpins modern psychiatry.
The spontaneity of the photograph is misleading however. It almost suggests a father whose child has just been born and who is rushing out to tell the world the good news. However, this is far from a spontaneous photograph. There is a rigid hierarchical arrangement here. Delay is distinguished by his navy blue coat, which he and only he wore around the university and hospital ground. When he was later elected to the Academie Francaise, he would wear the ceremonial sword that went with membership whenever possible. He is talking to Pichot rather than to Deniker, the discoverer of chlorpromazine because Pichot is, strictly speaking, the second most senior person in the Department.
This is a hierarchical world in which, had an emissary been sent from a University Department elsewhere in the world to visit Delay, even one considerably junior to Pichot and Deniker, Deniker and Pichot would nevertheless have been summoned to stand behind Delay while he talked to the emissary from elsewhere. Possibly for up to an hour without their opinions being sought. If the fellow had been from an ethnic minority, or was a woman or a senior member of a pharmaceutical company it is unlikely that Delay would have seen them. Women such as Helene Deschamps and later Ruth Koeppe were written out of the chlorpromazine story.
There are two things happening in the background, however, that will change everything, unbeknownst to Delay and his group. Both in North American psychiatry. In the course of the Second World War, psychiatrists associated with the military have discovered that group therapies can have a dramatic impact on the nervous disorders produced in soldiers by the War. These therapies work best it seems where they involve a dissolution of the hierarchies of both preWar European social life and Army life. This is particularly clear in Great Britain. The more informal the setting, the better.
American military psychiatrists viewing this group therapy, in particular Karl Menninger, take home a message. The options were that groups work or that therapy works. Menninger opted for a message of psychodynamic therapy works. This led American psychiatrists returning from the War and also those manning the asylums during the War to abandon the asylums and to set up office practice. The asylums are left to the Europeans. Power and influence in American psychiatry uniquely moves into the community. In so doing, American psychiatrists capture for psychiatry the vast range of nervous and psychosomatic complaints that have previously been the province of neurologists and internists with an interest in psychosomatic medicine.
The other thing that is happening stems from another war that began in 1914 - a War on Drugs. This began with the Harrison’s Narcotics Act, which made the opiates and cocaine available on prescription-only. In 1951, a Humphrey-Durham Amendment to the 1938 Foods Drugs and Cosmetics Act makes all the new drugs produced by the pharmaceutical revolution following the Second World War, the new antibiotics, antihypertensives, antipsychotics, antidepressants, anxiolytics and other drugs, available on prescription-only.
Not everybody is happy with the new arrangement. Many complain that a system designed for addicts is not appropriate for the citizens of a free country.
A combustible set of ingredients has been put in place that will lead to an explosion. It only took 16 years for the explosion to come.
In the next slide, you see the Tokyo University on fire. Tokyo sits at the apex of the Japanese hierarchy. The students have occupied the Department of Psychiatry in an occupation that continues for ten years. Psychiatric research in Tokyo is brought to a halt. The most powerful psychiatrist in Japan, the professor of psychiatry in Tokyo, Hiroshi Utena, is forced to retire (Slide 2).
Why is there such an extraordinary development? Only 16 years after the discovery of chlorpromazine, which liberated the insane from their straitjackets. The great boast of the advocates of chlorpromazine was that it had restored humanity to the asylums. Previously, lunatics had been guarded by jailers, who treated them brutally. Now it was possible for therapists to see the humanity of their patients and talk to them. The level of noise in the asylum has fallen.
However, the times have seen the emergence of antipsychiatry and the antipsychiatrists respond that real straitjackets have simply been replaced for chemical straitjackets, for the camisole chimique. That indeed there is silence within the walls of the asylums, but this is the silence of the cemetery.
What is happening? There is a revolution in progress. A revolution that stems in great part from the new drugs and the interaction between these drugs in the social order in which people live. The drugs have played or threaten to play a huge part in a changing of the social order. The discovery of chlorpromazine by Delay and Deniker was the discovery of a drug that acted on a disease in order to restore a person to their place in the social order. In contrast, Henri Laborit's discovery of chlorpromazine the previous year, which led to artificial hibernation was the discovery of a drug which produced an indifference, so that taking this kind of drug taxi drivers drove through red lights.
And out of the same test tubes and laboratories from which chlorpromazine came, came LSD and the psychedelics, Valium and the benzodiazepines and other drugs. These were not drugs that restore people to their place in the social order. These were drugs that had the potential to transform social order.
By 1968, another drug, the oral contraceptive, had begun to transform the social order by changing relations between the sexes (Slide 3). In 1968, for the first time, the French clothing industry produced more trousers for women than for men. By 1968, feminism had appeared to challenge the colonisation of women's minds by men.
1968 saw the culmination of a project begun by Rousseau and Voltaire, the Enlightenment. This was a project, which overthrew the traditional hierarchical order in society. It led to the dethronement of kings and gods. It claimed that the people should be ruled by the people and that an individual's place in society should depend on merit. It claimed that individuals had rights in addition to duties. But this project had remained the preserve of white middle aged and middle class men. It had not extended to women, the young, ethnic groups, or others -- until 1968.
In 1968, antipsychiatrists and others protested against the colonisation of the minds of ethnic groups by white Europeans (Slide 4), the colonisation of the poor by the rich, the colonisation of the minds of the young by the old. They castigated the new drugs as a means of controlling the young. Madness was the protest of the colonised.
Some of the politics of the time can be seen if one considers the example of smart drugs now. We live in a time now when it is not possible to discriminate on the basis of sex, ethnicity, age or religion, but we still discriminate on the basis of intelligence. Bright kids get to go to good university and are subsidised by the state to do so. These cognitive enhancers, it would seem, will bring benefits to less able or old animals compared with young and bright animals. Should cognitive enhancing drugs become available, they will favour those who are less bright. Will they be made available to society generally? Or will their use to be restricted to diseases such as Aged Associated Memory Impairment? - Can disease ever be a value free concept?
The anti-psychiatrists had a number of powerful weapons in their armoury. One was ECT and the other was Tardive dyskinesia. There is no question that ECT works - the problem with it and for psychiatry was its visibility, which led to its pivotal role in the movie One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest (Slide 5). Tardive dyskinesia was a syndrome first described in 1960. By 1968, it was clear that it was a common and disabling side effect of antipsychotic drugs. It was neither the most common nor the most disabling side effect, but it was the most visible (Slide 6).
The response from most of psychiatry was the same response as from psychoanalysts to criticism against psychotherapy. When the treatment failed to work, they claimed it was the disease, not the treatment that was at fault. Similarly psychiatry blamed the disease rather than the drugs. Just as we have since done with the SSRIs and suicide.
However, the visibility of Tardive dyskinesia was a real problem and by 1974, SmithKline & French had settled their first legal case for over $1million. With this settlement, a generation of antipsychotic discovery, which includes drugs such as chlorpromazine, thioridazine, levomepromazine, chlorprothixene, flupenthixol, clopenthixol, haloperidol, droperidol, benperidol, perphenazine, fluphenazine, prochlorperazine, trifluoperazine, pimozide, sulpiride and many others came to an end. It was to be almost 20 years before another generation of antipsychotic drugs emerged. When new drugs came, starting with clozapine, they came not because they were better than the older drugs nor because they were good for negative syndromes -whatever you think about the evidence for these claims, they were not what led to the new generation of antipsychotics. The reasoning behind the re-emergence of clozapine was because it didn’t cause tardive dyskinesia (Slide 7).
Slide 8 shows Leo Hollister. In 1957, Hollister had run a double-blind placebo-controlled trial of chlorpromazine in patients with no nervous conditions at all, demonstrating that it produced marked physical dependence. By 1966, a large number of studies had confirmed his observations that there was a marked and severe physical dependence on antipsychotics that was present in large numbers of people taking them, even at low doses for a relatively short period of time. A dose of 1 mg Stelazine given for several months might produce a state where the individual could never stop therapy ever again. This led to the concept of therapeutic drug dependence. A concept that blows a hole in most theories of addiction we have. These drugs produce no tolerance, no euphoria. They produce enduring post-discontinuation changes that are as extensive and long lasting as the changes underpinning current disease models of addiction. But recognition of antipsychotic dependence vanished around 1968, when the War on Drugs was declared.
Psychopharmacology was faced with a political problem. The problem was how to distinguish drugs, which restored social order from drugs, which subverted the social order. The ‘decision’ was made to categorise as problematic and dependence producing any drugs, which subverted the social order. This political rather than scientific decision set up a crisis a few years later when physical dependence on the benzodiazepines emerged. This broadened to an extraordinary crisis, which led to the obliteration of the anxiolytics and indeed almost the whole concept of anxiolysis. By 1990, physicians in Britain and elsewhere regarded benzodiazepines as more addictive than heroin or cocaine - without any scientific evidence to underpin this perception (Slide 9).
You may smile indulgently at this idea now, but the consequences could not have been more profound. To appreciate these, you simply need to look to Japan, where there never was a crisis with the benzodiazepines. In Japan, the concept of an anxiolytic remains respectable and the market for anxiolytics is much greater than the market for antidepressants. No SSRIs, not even "Prozac" are available on the Japanese market for depression. The era of Depression that we have lived through in the 1990s in the West has arguably been a politically and economically constructed era that bears little relationship to any clinical facts. An era that has changed popular culture by replacing a psychobabble of Freudian terms with a new biobabble about low serotonin levels and the like.
As the 1990s ended, dependence on the SSRIs appeared. Is another group of useful drugs going to be lost to us the way the benzodiazepine were lost? Do we understand enough about what happened to the benzodiazepines to be able to guarantee that the SSRIs will not suffer the same thing? Do we understand how the concept of dependence on antipsychotics could have vanished just in time when a very obvious dependence syndrome -- Tardive dyskinesia -- was causing so much grief to the psychiatric and pharmaceutical establishments? If we don’t understand what happened here, we can offer no guarantees for the future.
Coming from my perspective the antipsychiatrist arguments that madness doesn’t really exist are simply wrong. But the unarticulated force behind the antipsychiatrists’ arguments was that they perceived that in some way the ways in which we govern ourselves had changed and that psychiatry was now part of the new order of government. Everyone agreed there had been a de-institutionalisation. But was it a de-institutionalisation of patients? Where patients are concerned, in Britain at least they are being detained at 3 times greater rate than 50 years ago. They were being admitted at a 15 times greater rate than before, and on average, patients are spending a longer time in service beds than ever before in history. New conditions such as personality disorders were being admitted to hospital and the management of violence and social problems was becoming an issue for psychiatry (Slide 10). The figures are more consistent with a de-institutionalisation of psychiatry. Unselfconsciously, psychiatrists claim we are treating more patients than ever before. We are.
This was to lead to the greatest possible symbol for the times. On the next slide, you can see the protests in Paris in 1968. The students are on the march. Their march takes them to the office of Jean Delay, which they ransacked. Delay is forced to retire. He has no sympathy for the new world, in which students can expect to address the professors in informal terms (Slide 11).
But the fact that we are all here today suggests that we won, doesn't it? You may not know how we won. No history has ever been written of the period. No textbooks of psychiatry record the sacking of Delay’s office. None refer to the fact that the key figures behind the revolutions of late 1960s, were psychiatrists or philosophers appealing to examples from psychiatry -- Franz Fanon, Michel Foucault, R.D. Laing, Thomas Szasz, Erving Goffmann, Herbert Marcuse. In the face of a repression like this, you may feel that the ghost of Freud is hovering somewhere, laughing at us, and perhaps you are right.
The truth is, we didn't win. The world changed. Both psychiatry and anti-psychiatry were swept away and replaced by a new corporate psychiatry. Galbraith has argued we no longer have free markets; corporations work out what they have to sell and then prepare the market so that we will want those products (Slide 12). It works for cars, oil, and everything else, why would it not work for psychiatry? Prescription only status makes the psychiatric market easier than almost any other market - a comparatively few hearts and minds need to be won.
Within psychiatry, two factors have helped. One was the emergence of Big Science. Look at this graph, one of the most famous images in modern psychiatry. This version comes from Phil Seeman in Toronto (Slide 13). Solomon Snyder was doing roughly the same at the time. This was one of the triumphs of modern psychopharmacology. It remains as true and accurate today as when it was first published 25 years ago.
But these binding data introduce something else as well, for which neither Seeman nor Snyder, nor others who developed radiolabeled techniques can be held responsible. They introduced a new language, a language of Big Science, where physicians and companies had common interests. Where previously psychiatrists and antipsychiatrists and patients were using what was recognisably the same language this no longer applied. Both sides had been governed by the visible presentations of the patients in front of them. Now to get into the debate you had to have a manifold filter and a scintillation counter. Far from this being a science that worked in the interests of patients, it led onto megadose regimes. No longer answerable it seems to how the patients in front of us actually looked, following the science we moved on to these megadose regimes that may have caused as many brains to be injured as were ever injured with psychosurgery.
The other factor stems from figures like Rene Descartes, whom you can see in slide 14, Blaise Pascal and others, who were behind the development of statistics and probability theory. It was this that laid the basis for the Enlightenment. A process began in the 18th century of mapping peoples rather than just the land. This led on to the notion of rule of the people by the people, as well as the creation of social science and epidemiology. It led to a moral movement in health and in psychiatry.
The same forces led at the end of 19th century to the first attempts to map the human individual, their attitudes and abilities, personality, or intelligence. Sales such as the IQ scale led to new concepts of norms and deviations from those norms and psychologists emerged to take a place in the educational system, the legal system, and in the government of ourselves - it was this that underpinned the psychodynamic revolution (Slide 15).
This was not just the replacement of theology and philosophy - the qualitative sciences - by a new set of quantitative sciences. The new statistics set up something else. They set up a market in futures. A market in risks. We were on our way to becoming a Risk Society (Slide 16). In the case of IQ test, deviations from the norm were now something that predicted problems in the future. Parents sought out psychologists in order to improve the futures for their children. This was how we would govern ourselves in the future. Through the marketplace.
Psychotropic drugs entered this new market in many different ways. The oral contraceptives for instance are clearly not for the treatment of disease. They were a means of managing risks. Where once, the risks of eternal damnation had been those that concerned people the most, now it was a much more immediate set of risks - indicating that we had switched one set of future risks as the key ones that determined our behaviour for another set more immediate set (Slide 17). The best selling drugs in modern medicine do something similar - they don't treat disease. They manage risks. This is clearly true of the antihypertensives, the lipid lowering agents and other drug (Slide 18). It is true also of antidepressants, which have been sold on the back of efforts to reduce risks of suicide (Slide 19).
We are in an era, which is popularly portrayed as an "Evidence Based Medicine" era. What can go wrong if we have clinical trial evidence to demonstrate what works and what doesn't work, if we but adhere to this evidence (Slide 20). What more can we do than that?
Arguably, the term "Evidence Biased Medicine" would be more appropriate. Clinical trials in psychiatry have never showed that anything worked. Penicillin eradicated a major psychiatric disease without any clinical trial to show that it worked. Chlorpromazine and the antidepressants were all discovered without clinical trials. You don't need a trial to show something works. Haloperidol and other agents worked for delirium and no one ever thought to do a clinical trial to support this. Anaesthetics work without trials to show the point. Analgesics work and clinical trials aren't needed to show this. Clinical trials nearly got in the way of us getting fluoxetine and sertraline.
What clinical trials demonstrate are treatment effects. In some cases, these effects are minimal. One may have to strain with the eye of faith to detect the treatment effect. The majority of trials for sertraline and for fluoxetine failed to detect any treatment effect. This is not evidence that sertraline or fluoxetine do not work. In clinical practice many of us are under no doubt that these drugs do work. It is, rather, evidence of the inadequacy of our assessment methods. To show that something works, we would need to go beyond treatment effects to show that these effects produce a resolution of the disorder in a sufficient number of people to outweigh the problems such as dependence syndromes that these drugs also cause. If our drugs really worked, we shouldn't have 3 times the number of patients detained now compared with before, 15 times the number of admissions and lengthier service bed stays for mood and other disorders that we have now. This isn't what happened in the case of a treatment that works, such as penicillin for GPI.
Aside from the inadequacy of our clinical trial methods, professors of psychiatry are now in jail for inventing patients. A significant proportion of the scientific literature is now ghost written. A large number of clinical trials done are not reported if the results don't suit the companies' sponsoring study. Over trials are multiply reported so that anyone trying to meta-analyse the findings can have a real problem trying to work out how many trials there have been. Within the studies that are reported, data such as quality of life scale results on antidepressants have been almost uniformly suppressed. To call this science is misleading.
One of the other aspects of the new medical arena is that the most vigorous and hostile patient groups of the antipsychiatry period have been penetrated by the pharmaceutical industry. Other patient groups have been set up de novo by companies. Part of the market development plans for many drugs these days include the creation of patient groups to lobby on behalf of a new treatment. Meetings are convened for pharmaceutical companies specifically to advise and train on how to set up such groups.
All of this is perhaps part of the normal rough and tumble between clinical practice, science and business. But there is a further even more important aspect of what is happening, which is contained in the following quote from Max Hamilton: "it may be that we are witnessing a change as revolutionary as was the introduction of standardization and mass production in manufacture. Both have their positive and negative sides" (Slide 21).
Most of you who have used Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. What is this man on about when he talks about a revolutionary aspect to using such a simple instrument as this. Note the date. 1972. Maybe Hamilton is close enough to the events that were happening at the turn to see something that we cannot now see. Maybe as a communist, he was sensitive to things that we are not sensitive to now.
Rating Scales have been such feature of psychiatric trials and clinical practice for so long now that it is perhaps difficult to see that there are revolutionary aspects to what happened. There is now a profusion of rating scales and checklists used throughout our schools and all walks of life. We quantify aspects of sexual behaviour, aspects of the behaviour of children, all sorts of things we never quantified before. Where once there was life’s rich variety, now children in our schools fall outside all sorts of norms. And in the case of children falling outside norms, we now have a range of data suggesting there are things that parents can do to bring their children back inside appropriate norms (Slide 22). Things that we can do to minimise the risk for our children’s future. Figures that just like the figures for IQ it is thought will generalise to the population at large.
The figures on treatment effects from rating scales used in our clinical trials have set up a new market. When you consider that we are now treating children from the ages of 1 to 4 with "Prozac" and "Ritalin", you will realise that we are not treating diseases here. I have written extensively on how corporations make markets but pharmaceutical corporations have not sold psychotropic drugs to children. The explosion of drug use in children is a manifestation of the force that makes markets, that underpins the market development of pharmaceutical companies and others. This is the force that creates pharmaceutical companies. The treatment effects from clinical trials have been taken to be findings that generalise across the community - they are taken to indicate that these agents will return children within the set of norms that will minimise future risks. What parent could not want to minimise future risks for their child.
The eating disorders perhaps offer an analogy for what is involved (Slide 23). Clearly people have starved themselves for millennia. For a variety of reasons, good and bad. Anorexia nervosa, as you know, emerged as something different to previous starving behaviors in the early 1870s. No good epidemiological figures exist for this next claim, as the epidemiology of eating disorders didn't exist until recently, but the syndrome appears to have increased in frequency in 1920s and 1930s and increased yet again in the 1960s with new variants mushrooming. Competing theories have focused on the possible psychodynamics of the problem, the biology of the problem, or socio-political aspects of the problems. These competing theories have rarely spoken to each other however.
What is rarely recognised is that in the 1870s Weighing Scales emerged and with them norms for weight and deviations from the norm and an awareness that deviations in the direction of what had formerly been thought to be healthy and beautiful carried risks. The insurance industry published these figures. In the 1920s, Weighing Scales increased in frequency and the scales, with their norms printed on the front of them, appeared in pharmacies, drug stores and other retail outlets. In the 1960s, the Scales were miniaturised so that we all ended up with Weighing Scales in our homes.
Clearly Weighing Scales don't create eating disorders in that even blind individuals can become eating disordered. But it's impossible to imagine eating disorders on the epidemic scale that now exist without the presence of both Weighing Scales and modern normative ideas about weight. And it is easy to imagine the removal of the feedback from Weighing Scales as being in many cases therapeutic in its own right. These new figures and norms have been a means for women to govern their bodies.
But the selectivity of the figures also grounds a peculiarly modern neurosis. Just as figures for GDP give us feedback from some areas of endeavour but not others and in so doing encourage the promotion of automobiles and the chopping down of trees, so also figures from this one area of life, which are easy to produce, have the power to control behaviour. Markets can be set up in other areas, such as air-quality and wilderness. Until such time as they are, it requires great wisdom and considerable internal resources to factor into our lives these other values.
What is the future? Well, there is bad and good news. Although in truth, both scenarios that I will outline may seem so strange that you may feel both of them are bad.
Slide 24. You see here the face of one of the greatest serial killers ever. Perhaps the greatest serial killer of all time. This man was a doctor. His name, Harold Shipman. He worked close to where I live. Shipman's case illustrates that situations where trust is important can provide the conditions for extraordinary abuses.
One of the conditions where trust applies is in prescription only arrangements, this arrangement that was introduced for the bad drugs to restrict their availability but now applies exclusively to the good drugs. This arrangement was put in place so that physicians would quarry information out of pharmaceutical companies on behalf of their patients and would provide the counter-balancing wisdom to market forces.
Since this arrangement was first put in place, modern pharmaceutical companies and corporations have grown to be the most profitable organisations on the planet. There has been a change from companies run by physicians and chemists to companies run by business managers who rotate in from Big Oil or Big Tobacco. The companies are advised by the same lawyers who advise Big Oil and Big Tobacco and other corporations.
In the case of tobacco industry, it now seems clear that the legal advice in the face of the problems of smoking was not to research the hazards of smoking, as to do so would increase the legal liabilities of the corporations involved (Slide 25). Similar advice given to the managers of our pharmaceutical corporations would be completely incompatible with prescription-only arrangements. And the same lawyers who advise the pharmaceutical corporations are the lawyers for the tobacco corporations. In this case Shook, Hardy and Bacon. Advice like this would convert prescription-only arrangements into a vehicle to deliver adverse medical consequences with legal impunity.
I happen to believe that Prozac and other SSRIs can lead to suicide. These drugs may have been responsible for 1 death for every day that "Prozac" has been on the market in North America. In all likelihood many of you will not agree with me on this - you haven’t seen the information that I have seen. However we can all agree that there has been a controversy about whether there may be a problem or not. What I believe you will also have to agree with is the fact since the controversy blew up, there has not been a single piece of research carried out to answer the questions of whether "Prozac" does cause suicide or not. Designed yes, carried out - no.
How does this apply to the future? Well with the mapping of the human genome, we have the possibilities of creating new markets (Slide 26). We need this knowledge from the human genome to govern ourselves. It will set up the markets that we need to govern ourselves. It will tell us about some of the underpinnings to our beliefs - why we believe some of the things we do in the religious and political domains. We need this knowledge. But the products of this research will belong almost exclusively to pharmaceutical corporations. If they are advised in the way that they appeared to be advised at present, this knowledge, which is so democratically important, will operate against the interests of democracy.
Finally, you see here another image of the future (Slide 27). In the course of the last 50 years, plastic surgery evolved into cosmetic surgery. Plastic surgery began as a set of reconstruction procedures aimed at restoring a person to their place in the social order. It evolved into cosmetic surgery when the reliability with which certain procedures could be carried out passed a certain quality threshold.
You have all heard the word "quality" a lot lately. Quality in modern healthcare however does not refer to good interactions between two human beings. Quality as we hear it nowadays is being used in an industrial sense to refer to the reproducibility of certain outcomes. Big Mac hamburgers are quality hamburgers in this sense -- they are the same every time. In the case of the antidepressants, the quality is currently lousy. But the development of pharmacogenetics and neuroimaging is going to change all that. It is not that our drugs are necessarily going to be dramatically more effective, but the quality of responses that we can produce is going to be much greater.
Viagra gives good indication of what will happen when we get to this stage. Viagra is a drug that produces quality outcomes - reproducible outcomes. When this happens, it becomes possible to abandon the disease concept. Pharmaceutical company executives and others talk openly instead about lifestyle agents. This is the world that lies in store for us. It is not the world of traditional medicine, where drugs treat diseases to restore the social order. It is a world in which psychopharmacological interventions will potentially change that order. Whether you should think this is good or bad is not for me to say. I happen to think there may be many benefits.
This returns us to the picture of Delay and his colleagues (Slide 28). You remember I said that Pichot and Deniker might be left standing behind Delay for an hour while he entertained someone like me. This was not an experience that Deniker or Pichot, however, experienced as some exquisite form of torture or as a humiliation. It was a different time. It was a time when honour and loyalty were more important than they are now. They counted for more than the search for individual authenticity we now have. The hierarchy was something that these men believed in. In the same way, a fear of God was once seen as a good thing that held the social order in place. This fear became anxiety and then anxiety disorders - something to be treated.
What this shows is that there are forces at play, that can change not only the kinds of drugs we give, not only the conditions we think we are treating, but our very selves who are doing the giving. Forces that can change us more profoundly that we can be changed by a handful of LSD containing dust.
For these reasons, you may think these changes deserve scrutiny. The alternative is to slide gently into the future. This seemed a viable alternative until recently when arguably the emergence of managed care has made it clear that sliding into the future may not be as gentle and painless as we might once have expected.
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by chemical bros
Monday, Nov. 25, 2002 at 5:32 AM
Got any per-capita statistics to support those assertions, matey? ======== Professor Olaf Drummer, a forensic scientist the Royal College of Surgeons in Melbourne in 1996: "Compared to alcohol, which makes people take more risks on the road, marijuana made drivers slow down and drive more carefully.... Cannabis is GOOD for driving skills, as people tend to *overcompensate* for a perceived impairment." http://www.ccguide.org.uk/driving.html
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by DJEB
Monday, Nov. 25, 2002 at 10:39 AM
"Bush Admirer", you must be confused regarding the poppy situation in Afghanistan and the U.S. taking a hands off position to it. Also, targetting drug problems at the source (ie. Colombia, etc.) is the least effective means of dealing with the drug problem. If one were serious about drugs, they would focus on drug rehab programs.
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by Fascism Admirer
Monday, Nov. 25, 2002 at 4:56 PM
nbc1.jpg, image/jpeg, 686x495
Still no scientific STATISTICS on health and mortality to support your argument, buddy.
Lots of bombast from a control freak though.
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by DJEB
Monday, Nov. 25, 2002 at 8:12 PM
Or course, you would do as you like. I was merely suggesting what the Rand Corporation said would be the most effective means of dealing with the problem. They compared prevention through treatment, criminal justice, interdiction and source control. Looking at cost effectiveness, treatment was found to be 7 times as effective as criminal justice (ie. police arresting people for drug possession). Treatment was 11 times as effective as interdiction, and treatment was 23 times as effective as source control.
The other problem with targetting the source is that the U.S. has no right to carry out such operations (chemical spraying, etc.) in other countries.
However, judging by your post directly above, it sounds like you are not interested in a rational argument.
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by Fascism Admirer
Monday, Nov. 25, 2002 at 9:38 PM
What sort of control-freak would make nature illegal?
Could we live happily ever after? Perhaps. One's interest in the
genetically pre-programmed states of sublimity
sketched in The Hedonistic Imperative
is tempered by the knowledge that one is unlikely to be around to enjoy
them. It's all very well being told our descendants
will experience every moment of their lives as a magical epiphany. For emotional
primitives and our loved ones
at present, most of life's moments bring nothing
of the sort. In centuries to come, our baseline of emotional well-being
may indeed surpass anything today's legacy wetware can even contemplate.
Right now, however, a future Post-Darwinian
Era of paradise-engineering can seem
an awfully long way off. Mainstream society today has a desperately underdeveloped
conception of mental health.
There's
clearly a strong causal link between the raw
biological capacity to experience happiness
and the extent to which one's life is felt
to be worthwhile. High-minded philosophy treatises should
complicate but not confuse the primacy of the
pleasure-pain axis. So one very practical method of
life-enrichment consists in chemically engineering happier brains for all in the here-and-now. Yet how
can this best be done?
Any strategy which
doesn't subvert our inbuilt hedonic
treadmill of inhibitory feedback mechanisms in the
CNS will fail. Political and socio-economic
reforms offer at best a lame stopgap. To the scientific naturalist, all
routes to happiness must ultimately be biological: "culture" must be neurochemically
encoded to exert its effects. Some of these routes to happiness involve
the traditional environmental detours. They are too technical, diverse and
futile to tackle here. If the quality of our lives is to be significantly
enhanced in the long term, then the genetically predisposed set-point of
our emotional thermostats needs to be recalibrated. The malaise-ridden norm
typically adaptive in
humanity's ancestral environment must be scrapped. So while we wait for
germ-line gene-therapy to become standard, it's worth considering instead
how ordinary early twenty-first century Homo sapiens can sustainably
maximise emotional well-being with only present-day pharmacology to rely
on. No less importantly, how is it possible to combine staying continuously
high with
retaining one's sense of social and ethical
responsibility to other people and
life-forms?
Extracting
reliable
information on this topic is extraordinarily difficult
for laity and professionals alike. The layman is more
likely to be given heavily slanted propaganda.
Unvarnished fact might confuse his supposedly uneducated and
functionally diminutive brain. Career-scientists, on
the other hand, are bedevilled by a different problem.
Access to funds, laboratories, raw materials, journal
publication, professional preferment,
and licenses to conduct experimental trials is all
dependent on researchers delivering results their
paymasters want to hear. The disincentives to
intellectual integrity could scarcely be greater; and they
are cloaked in such reputable disguise.
By
way of illustration, it's worth contemplating one
far-fetched scenario. How might an everlasting-happiness
drug - a drug which (implausibly!) left someone who tried it once living
happily-ever-after - find itself described in the
literature?
"Substance x induces severe, irreversible structural
damage to neurotransmitter subsystem y. Its sequelae include mood-congruent
cognitive delusions, treatment-resistant euphoria, and toxic affective
psychosis."
Eeek! Needless to say, no responsible adult would mess around with a potent neurotoxin under this
description.
Several excellent
researchers play the game by the rules. They keep their heterodox opinions
to themselves. Others find such cognitive
dissonance too unpleasant. So they gradually internalise the puritanical
role and tendency to warped scientific prose expected of them. [Whereas
horribly-tortured experimental animals,
for instance, blandly get "used" and "sacrificed", certain
drugs always get "abused" by "drug-abusers"] On the
other hand, some of the most original and productive minds in the field
of psychopharmacology
- pre-eminently Alexander Shulgin
- have already been silenced. Many more careers have been intellectually
strangled at birth or consigned to professional oblivion. The danger of
poisoning the wells of information, for whatever motives, is straightforward.
When young people discover they have been lied to or deceived, over cannabis
for instance, they will pardonably assume that they have been lied to or
deceived over the dangers of other illegals
too. And this, to put it mildly, would be exceedingly rash.
biopsychiatry.com
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by Sagan
Monday, Nov. 25, 2002 at 9:56 PM
The cannabis experience has greatly improved my appreciation for art, a subject which I had never much appreciated before. The understanding of the intent of the artist which I can achieve when high sometimes carries over to when I'm down. This is one of many human frontiers which cannabis has helped me traverse. There also have been some art-related insights – I don't know whether they are true or false, but they were fun to formulate. For example, I have spent some time high looking at the work of the Belgian surrealist Yves Tanguey. Some years later, I emerged from a long swim in the Caribbean and sank exhausted onto a beach formed from the erosion of a nearby coral reef. In idly examining the arcuate pastel-colored coral fragments which made up the beach, I saw before me a vast Tanguey painting. Perhaps Tanguey visited such a beach in his childhood. A very similar improvement in my appreciation of music has occurred with cannabis. For the first time I have been able to hear the separate parts of a three-part harmony and the richness of the counterpoint. I have since discovered that professional musicians can quite easily keep many separate parts going simultaneously in their heads, but this was the first time for me. Again, the learning experience when high has at least to some extent carried over when I'm down. The enjoyment of food is amplified; tastes and aromas emerge that for some reason we ordinarily seem to be too busy to notice. I am able to give my full attention to the sensation. A potato will have a texture, a body, and taste like that of other potatoes, but much more so. Cannabis also enhances the enjoyment of sex – on the one hand it gives an exquisite sensitivity, but on the other hand it postpones orgasm: in part by distracting me with the profusion of image passing before my eyes. The actual duration of orgasm seems to lengthen greatly, but this may be the usual experience of time expansion which comes with cannabis smoking. I do not consider myself a religious person in the usual sense, but there is a religious aspect to some highs. The heightened sensitivity in all areas gives me a feeling of communion with my surroundings, both animate and inanimate. Sometimes a kind of existential perception of the absurd comes over me and I see with awful certainty the hypocrisies and posturing of myself and my fellow men. And at other times, there is a different sense of the absurd, a playful and whimsical awareness. Both of these senses of the absurd can be communicated, and some of the most rewarding highs I've had have been in sharing talk and perceptions and humor. Cannabis brings us an awareness that we spend a lifetime being trained to overlook and forget and put out of our minds. A sense of what the world is really like can be maddening; cannabis has brought me some feelings for what it is like to be crazy, and how we use that word 'crazy' to avoid thinking about things that are too painful for us. In the Soviet Union political dissidents are routinely placed in insane asylums. The same kind of thing, a little more subtle perhaps, occurs here: 'did you hear what Lenny Bruce said yesterday? He must be crazy.' When high on cannabis I discovered that there's somebody inside in those people we call mad. [...] There is a myth about such highs: the user has an illusion of great insight, but it does not survive scrutiny in the morning. I am convinced that this is an error, and that the devastating insights achieved when high are real insights; the main problem is putting these insights in a form acceptable to the quite different self that we are when we're down the next day ---Carl Sagan http://www.marijuana-uses.com/examples/Mr_X.htm ==================== CARL SAGAN (1934-1996) We succeeded in taking that picture [from deep space], and, if you look at it, you see a dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever lived, lived out their lives. The aggregate of all our joys and sufferings, thousands of confident religions, ideologies and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilizations, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every hopeful child, every mother and father, every inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every superstar, every supreme leader, every saint and sinner in the history of our species, lived there on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam. The earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and in triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of the dot on scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner of the dot. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us. It's been said that astronomy is a humbling, and I might add, a character-building experience. To my mind, there is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly and compassionately with one another and to preserve and cherish that pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known. Excerpted from a commencement address delivered May 11, 1996. http://www.seds.org/billa/psc/pbd.html
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by DJEB
Tuesday, Nov. 26, 2002 at 4:24 AM
Shoot on site? A dead or alive bounty? Damn, you are a bellicose one, aren't you. I can see why you admire Bush. I am afraid that I disagree with your solution to the drug problem, though. While your asinine "solution" would get rid of the drug problem by making it pale in comparison to the "drug war" problem, I think most rational people would not see it as any kind of solution at all.
I'm also sorry to say that while your attitude to international law is "screw that", it is international law nonetheless.
Again, I can see that you are not here for rational discourse. I wonder if all Bush admirers are as adverse to rational thought as you are.
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by DJEB
Tuesday, Nov. 26, 2002 at 5:06 PM
I suppose in the interests of linguistic accuracy, one could might want "the drug war" to be an actual war. Other than that, I find the proposal to be nonsensical.
It is in the interest of justice perhaps that you want to abandon justice and embrace injustice to fight lawlessness? Not much of a proposal. If only in rhetoric, U.S. leaders like to pride themselves on following the rule of law, whether it be carrying out civil justice or conducting warfare.
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by DJEB
Wednesday, Nov. 27, 2002 at 6:29 AM
I do not agree that the ends justify the means in this case. I doubt that you do either, but I may be wrong. What you are suggesting, to review, is public execusions of suspected criminals (drug dealers in this case), a flaunting of human rights and violation of international law. I can think of such a regime, recently retired: the Taliban. Charming.
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by Merce Naria
Saturday, Apr. 26, 2003 at 10:46 PM
When I read:
As we continue this struggle against drug abuse it is wise to bear in mind George Santayana's line in Life of Reason, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
I remembered that in a different way:
We as human beings, learn from history that we never learn from history.
This is what happened in the prohibition era:
Encyclopedia—organized crime
The organized-crime syndicate in the United States is a product of the prohibition era of the early 20th cent. Al Capone's annual earnings were estimated at the time of his arrest to be $60 million. When Prohibition was repealed in 1933, an elaborate syndicate of organized crime, built on the multi-million dollar bootlegging industry, had survived. The American Mafia branched out into narcotics, gambling, prostitution, loan sharking and extortion, concerns they still control today.
It's a shame. Today the corruption in organizations like DEA and CIA make this a very profitable business. Legalizing would imply a price around 1% of the current price in the streets, killing the market, and of course, killing the production.
The advantage of growing coca wouldn't be greater than the one of growing bananas.
But, of course, with a billionaire business, involving high and powerful personalities in the american 'society', is almost imposible to stop the market. The reality, faced by rich and poor americans is that they are dealing with drugs every day. Even the president Bush. What a shame.
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by Bush Admirer
Monday, Apr. 28, 2003 at 2:45 PM
DJEB - If we're going to have a 'war on drugs' then let's have one. We haven't seen anything approaching 'war' in this category to date.
War means that you shoot your enemies on sight. War means that you bomb your enemy whevever you know their location.
We should be going after drug kingpins whenever we obtain knowledge as to their location.
Let's make good use of those laser guided bunker busters and take out some drug lords.
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by Diogenes
Monday, Apr. 28, 2003 at 3:24 PM
...is do you want to solve the problem or thump your chest?
As always BA your solution is to ignore any solution that does not involve a "manly" solution that leaves piles of smoking corpses. Not all problems are best solved with "Bunker Busters" and piles of corpses.
Reality is you can send 2 people through a Residential Treatment program, such as Narconon - which has about a 70% non-recidivism rate, for the cost of housing one person one year. In other words for the cost of warehousing someone in "lock-up" is twice as expensive as treatment. And that is only presuming the drug user is locked up for a measly year - the average Sentence is longer than a year.
The cost of the Drug War in Money and the encroachment on the Liberties of others is unacceptable. Perhaps BA would like to live in a Totaltitarian Police State but most of us rather like living in freedom. (Of course BA is a VERY wealthy Businessman so he probably figures he can do what he wishes anyway. I suspect at least some of his sucking up to the Government Party Line has to do with his Electronics Contracts with the Military and/or other Government Agencies.)
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by M.L.D.
Monday, Apr. 28, 2003 at 7:18 PM
An interesting concept Naria the problem lies in the fact that laws of supply and demand are not absolute. For instance should one mix spam (the caned meat) with cinnamon put it in a jar charge a hundred and fifty dollars an once and call it a delicacy, there's a chance it would become caviar of the 21st century. Despite the fact not many can afford a hundred and fifty dollars for an once of anything (demand low) and spam is as plentiful as $.25 meat can be (supply high). Should cocaine be legalized, lets say it destroys the cartels and Pepsi steps in, Pepsi delivers cocaine at a fraction of the cost. Now we have a markedly bigger customer base Pepsi gets super bowl time advertises "Pepsi Blow". Now I won't state it as fact but apparently cocaine is addictive, and a hard habit to kick. We end up with, thanks to Pepsi's incredible marketing machine, a population of cocaine users. Congress steps in declares cocaine illegal. Boom, problem solved. Well lets say that someone, just for the sake of argument, finds it profitable to deliver a product which very few have access to and half the country's population is addicted to, rise of drug trade. But with a spin... half the country is willing to slit their wrist to get it. Once again just a possibility. p.s. Sorry didn't intend to have that much bite.
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by MadMaxim
Monday, Apr. 28, 2003 at 7:25 PM
...until we can clean up our own back yard.
Methamphetamine is far more devastating than anything coming from Columbia.
I once saw a bumper sticker I found amusing, it said : "Support the Contras - Buy Cocaine from a Republican"
That being said -
I'm sure that Vlad and his KGB comrades will, as always, view our domestic substance abuse problems with a gleafull eye:
The more stoned the American public is - the easier it will be to subdue.
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by Sheepdog
Monday, Apr. 28, 2003 at 7:32 PM
with cocaine cola, things go better with coke. But then they had to substitute caffine for the cocaine after 1937 (I believe) and Teddy's (of the ruff riders) favorite drink was a brandy made with coca which now sells at $30k per bottle. Legalize it, tax it, regulate it and cut the profit away from the CIA. Same with all drugs that are now sold on the black market.
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by M.L.D.
Monday, Apr. 28, 2003 at 7:52 PM
Fun facts... And always a good idea to restate the arguement... I'm sorry did that not make sense?
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by DJEB
Sunday, May. 25, 2003 at 5:40 PM
Bush Admirer wrote: "DJEB - If we're going to have a 'war on drugs' then let's have one. We haven't seen anything approaching 'war' in this category to date.
"War means that you shoot your enemies on sight. War means that you bomb your enemy whevever you know their location.
"We should be going after drug kingpins whenever we obtain knowledge as to their location.
"Let's make good use of those laser guided bunker busters and take out some drug lords.
You are not serious are you? Tell me this is a joke. I quote a study by the very conservative Rand Corporation and the best you can do is this?
Why should the U.S. use anti-drug techniques that would be worse than any Taliban oppression, Soviet oppression, Chinese oppression that has ever existed? You have a VERY, VERY heavy burden of proof that such extreme measures are necessary. Here's betting that you can do no more than make assertions that it is necessary.
At any rate, you don't seem to understand what a metaphor is. The "war" in "the War on drugs" is a metaphor, not a literal war.
Post whatever you like in response - knock yourself out. In my eyes you've proven youself to be beyond the capacity for either ration discussion or thought; and you've done more to harm your own argument than I could ever hope to. Have fun.
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by DJEB
Sunday, Nov. 16, 2003 at 8:38 AM
No comment? Good call!
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by Clay Bird
Thursday, Mar. 11, 2004 at 1:11 PM
runningman1_42@yahoo.com
Why don't we legalize it and instruct companys not to advertise, plus we are a long way from "Pepsi Blow". All we want is to decriminalize people, that's all
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by rehab
Sunday, Mar. 08, 2009 at 9:57 AM
v41085@gmail.com india
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by DJEB
Wednesday, Mar. 23, 2016 at 10:36 AM
Hi Bush Admirer,
I just came back here all these years later after a nostalgic desire to see once more your comment, which was one of the single most stupid things I have ever seen.
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