TODAY WE HAD A FANTASTIC MARCH AGAINST POLICE BRUTALITY
The October 22nd movement against police brutality is growing fast. Today hundreds of people showed up in downtown L.A. to protest the criminalization of a generation by the state, the media, and the police. We met at 2 p.m. and start marching on Broadway around 3 p.m. After the march, a dozen of speaker from various organizations took the mic to speak and complain about the U.S. police state in L.A. and all across America. Of course the display of police force during the rally was huge and unnecessary as usual. Crews from Channel 4, 11 and 13 were filming. I also saw crews from two radio stations... so I guess you’ll be able to see the full coverage of the march at the 7 o’clock news.... he he, just kidding.

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great pictures;
this was my 4th year attending in memory of my brother in law john jordan.

Fuck the police? No, thanks!!!

Yuck!

How'd so many people get off from work to protest the police? Oh, never mind.

"Bush Admirer"... of course there is Police Brutality, even the Police will admit to that, and every department has an internal unit to investigate brutality and corruption within the force.

I know a married couple who are fine, upstanding, middle class, parents. One is a PAROLE OFFICER and the other is a Teacher. They also happen to be Chicano. Their 19 year old Daughter was recently stopped by the Police during what should have been a routine traffic stop. The Cops stuck their guns in the girls face and tore her car apart. They didn't ask for her identification... they didn't tell her why she had been stopped... they just wanted to TERRIFY a young Brown Women.

"Bush Admirer".... I hope that someday YOU will feel such helplessness and terror at the hands of the Police. Perhaps then you will see that there really is a problem... until then, I suppose you will continue to live in your little fantasy bubble world.

dearest "bush admirer",

remember Rampart? Remember Rodney King?...i still do.

one time i was walking down a street and a police car stopped me and asked for an ID. i showed it to them. they told me i can go on walking. i did. i was never the same again.

Rodney King was then and is now a drug-addled thug and felon. He was fleeing at high speed from the police (risking the lives of many by the way), refused to cooperate with their commands and then engaged in fisticuffs with them. The fact that they beat him silly is a testament to their compassion. There is little doubt that he posed a threat to the lives of the officers and citizens nearby. He should have been shot.

your opinion is moronic

Fascinating rejoinder. My what cunning turn-of-phrase. You are a man of few words, I see. Yet, your missive leaves much to the imagination. Perhaps you would care to elaborate? At least it will give you the opportunity to utilize profanity. Now, remember to use spell check.

By which I reference your use of 'Your' rather than 'You're'. The former is used in cases of possession, as in: "Your house is on fire". Or: "Your views are different from my own". The latter is an abbreviated version of the phrase 'you are'. So what you meant to say is "You're a dumb fuck." And you doubtless are.

"Police brutality, on the other hand, is something we hear about but rarely see." do you think the chanel seven news or any type of big media would show us and the kids at home every night the new black kid who was beat by an officer, or the mexican woman who was harrassed or how the police are doing a great job terrorizing us and not protecting us?

hello bush admirer,
you're wasting your time on this web site. I am sure you can find a more appropriate site for your taste like: kkk.com, nazi.com or dumbdumb.com

I still want to know how all these people got off from work to attend this protest.

Hey Bush Admirer - I would be careful making fun of other's spelling and/or grammar when you follow a grown man who cannot speak in complete sentences. (How did he get through all those Ivy League classes? One word - Daddy.)

That aside, it seems you just want to argue or debate. Why not talk? Why not pose a question without the accusation and hostility, the attempt at belittlement?Why not go down to a protest or gathering and talk to people. I suspect engaging in conversation is a little difficult for you (not that you're the only one - it's also tough for some 'radicals' as well who just want to argue their side as well).

Ok. Now forget about a 'come back' and let me know what you think about that.

i was talking about bush admirerer.fuck police we shouldnt let them beat or kill nobody

i was talking about bush admirerer.fuck police we shouldnt let them beat or kill nobody

IF I FIND OUT WHO U ARE ILL FUCK U UP HOMIE!!!!! OUTLAWBLOODS TRUCA HOMIE

Temper, knuckles. If you don't settle down, you won't get a juice box before nappy time. And then you'll be too grumpy to learn English.

GW Bush is a member of an anti-christian devil cult that practices human sacrifice and worships some owl god idol. While having sex with small children they make policy decisions for the world there. He is a sick pervert who probably is a pedophile since you have to be to be a member of the Bohemian Club. Check it out for yourself, this is no joke.

http://www.infowars.com/bg_section.html

http://www.google.com/search?q=Bohemian+Club&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

"Protesters are not worthy of a conversation". "These are the bottom of the social ladder. Why would anyone want to have a conversation with these losers?"




hahahahahahaha. this is maybe the best argument ive seen by far on this website. jeese man , thats such a great reason to not go and speak with others fighting for rights and have a diferent point of view then you.

"Protesters are not worthy of a conversation".

well when im finaly worthy of having a discusion with you in person or just a talk i will be so fufilled oh great one!

Why would ANYONE want to have a conversation with someone who admires a cult member who worships big cement owls and watches sacrificial ceremonies?

http://www.johnnygosch.com/

whenever i'm driving or walking someplace I don't have to worry about no gangs or "criminals" shooting me. I have to worry about the police. Too many people have to leave their house with only one thing on their mind; worried if they're gunna make it to their destination without getting pulled over or fucked with by pigs, simply cus of the color of their skin or the way they look. how much longer are we going to let these motherfuckers to terrorize us so? until we're all locked up with our own fucking tax money? Fuck this system. Scream revolution, bust a shot, and don't stop until every pig is off the block.

People's Army? That's rich. More like the Moron's Crusade.

Quit whining at the protestors, bootlicker, and have a taste of my new Oxblood polish. If you're good you can have a little leather cream to go with it.

I use neutral and saddle soap but I'm sure
they taste the same. Wait; I also have
cream pie with banana slices. How about a burlap bag
full of angry skunks?

hey bush admirer, i'm really interested in your perspective....I want to know what you think and why...
let's have a discussion but without any hate and anger...without any presumptions; well, maybe a little...
email me at discuss101@yahoo.com

peace

There's alot of pigs and fraternal butt-suckers logging onto the IMC it seems. Police brutality is more rampant that people think. COPS and other ill tv shows like it are an illusion. They only add to the understanding that in the media we never get the people's side of an issue, its always the police. They're the most protected civil servants in our country, because it is their job to put their lives on the line to protect us, not harrass us, beat us, rape us, shoot us with impunity, sell drugs to us and then blame it on us. There are good sensitive cops out there, but as a whole the institution of the LAPD and the NYPD is full of a bunch of fraternal, masonic nitwits who spend too much time holding their dicks (I mean their guns). So fuck the police, and Bush Admirer needs to get off the crack like the president he worships so much.

To quote NWA, "Fuck the Police" and they're dumbass supporters.

I am gathering documentation on police misconduct. If you have a complaint, have made a complaint, or are a witness to police misconduct, please mail a copy of your complaint and/or pictures to: Kay Brown P.O. Box 1547, South Pasadena, CA 91031 (I am not an attorney.)

If the police commit a crime, doesn't that make it "criminal misconduct"??? And isn't that redundant, anyway...if it is criminal, then it is by definition misconduct...

...nevermind BushBlower....logic is lost on you....go back to your FrootLoops....

.A not all police are bad guys
.B just the ones who use their badge for a
license to rob, kill or extort.
Example:


.1 Ramparts abuses in LA


.2 The cop that knocked on my door to inquire
if the fire in my kitchen was a controlled
burn due to my room mate passing out after
starting dinner. (new living quarters advised)

Some people don't seem to see the grey zone in life. Some ignorant minded beings dont see out of their simplistic black and white views on life.

A)The Police are the good

B)The Police that act like criminals (ie.those who commit crime) are criminals. Therefore, the bad.

George Bush Jr is a meat puppet and a redneck. If you're in your 20's you're a heartless right winged moron Mr GW.

Bush Admirer, your posts are so one-dimensional and come from such a black-and-white perspective that I find it difficult to believe you're serious. Are you sure you're not just a plant, a red herring, thrown into the thread here to rile up us lefties?
If you are serious, it's to your credit that you invite discussion, like you did in your first few posts. But then you negate that completely by refusing to talk to the activists and protesters. If they are indeed "dupes," why aren't you interested in engaging them in a discussion and arguing your side of the story? You might get them to change their minds if you presented a decent enough argument. How awful it is to hear you dismiss them as not worthy of talking to--you cut off all hope for an open and communicative future. Pity.

when you say "bye, bye" understand that implies death and death is not a light issue. Termination of a human life cannot be regalated to a simple "bye, bye"!

Let's establish that you believe that police officers should
be honored, that they are heroes.

Let's also establish that there are many who do not feel this way. And it is not because they are ignorant or just because they adhere to some reactionary ideology (although, some do) -they have a valid reason for their anger. So, just as you would want us to see your side, that cops are the good guys (please define "good guys")
please understand that to many, cops are the "bad guys": abusive, disrespectful, terrorizing, reactionary force who epitomize the brutal way this system chooses to treat its citizens. Just some thoughts.

peace.

Okay...:

"Police misconduct is highly exagerated and overblown in the liberal world. It's a problem, but not a big one or a frequent one. "
-The argument that police misconduct is "highly exaggerated" does not mean it is not a problem. For example, the often-quoted "one in three women will be raped" stat that was floating around a few years ago--making me nervous the whole time I was in college--has been found to be an exaggeration (the true stats were tweaked when analyzed, and actually included assaults, attempts, and other icky situations; but nonetheless they were off); however, that does not mean rape is not a problem or that rape should not be actively opposed and spoken out against. The case is the same here.

"Criminal misconduct is hardly even recognized in the liberal world Yet criminal misconduct has to be 10,000 times more frequent than police misconduct. "
-By "criminal misconduct" do you mean "people who commit crimes"? If so, it's likely that people who commit crimes DO outnumber police who commit crimes--if only because there are more civilians than police. But still, the fact that criminal behavior is statistically more common than police misconduct is not a valid argument for ignoring police abuses.

"A march against police brutality simply shows that you have your priorities wrong."
-It is an important duty of any intellectually honest person to stand up against violence and againt the abuse of authority. If what you are saying is that I should instead be making the punishment of criminal actions my priority, well, I am--I pay taxes that fund the LAPD.
By opposing police misconduct I am additionally choosing to prioritize what could be seen as a misuse of my tax dollars, if you want to frame it in that context. Simply because I do not want the police to beat up or hurt people, or abuse their authority, doesn't mean I don't think legitimate criminal actions should not go redressed. I'd like accountability from both criminals AND police. As of now, only criminals are held accountable for their criminal actions. When an officer commits a crime, he goes unpunished. And this is a big problem, because he is in a position of authority over the public. It's almost similar to holding politicians accountable for criminal actions or misuse of public funds.

"Your views on the DP are similarly unrealistic. The possibility of executing an innocent man is much much less than the possibility of an unexecuted depraved murderer killing again. "
-I never said anything about the death penalty. But the death penalty discussion has nothing to do with making the statement that police brutality and misconduct is wrong.

"A good starting point for cleaning up your act would be to reverse course on Mumia. He needs to go bye bye ASAP."
-I admittedly don't know much about the Mumia case. It's my understanding that there is a great deal of evidence that he is innocent. In the presence of such a preponderance of evidence, it seems like an unbalanced decision to choose for him to die. But once again, the logistics of his case, and the philosophical argument that the death penalty revolves around, is unrelated to opposing police misconduct.

Hey genius, policy brutality IS illegal, and therefore, "criminal brutality"...

...take some time away from FOX and hit the books a little, brainiac.....

I believe you stated
-1/ The police are the good guys, and

2/ The criminals are the bad guys-
And then you proceeded to support your simple minded
postulation by obscuring the issue of police abuse
through various hedges..
These agencies are here to "serve and protect" the public
from whom they are funded. It's not their position I
object to, it's the ABUSE of that position.
There are ample examples of these agencies corrupted to
the point that they act instead as a criminal enterprise
rather than a public asset. This is why they require a
short leash sometimes under full disclosure from their
true employers; we the people. What's so hard to understand?

None of the above.
I believe twits like yourself are the greatest
threats to this country.
I can't decide if you are believing your own crap
or are being given a script to follow. Doesn't make
much of a difference to me. All your tactics sound like
cointel. To me, you and your ilk are the problem.
You are a broken record unable to accept overwhelming
evidence or logic. A robot. Not a very intelligent one either. Get a clue.

It really doesn't matter what anybody says, you are
in a program loop.

The "biggest threat" to this country and to humanity, autonomy, freedom, a fully lived life--is the criminal act of stealing the commons and asserting private property, and the resulting need for police to enforce and perpetuate that original theft.

Your arguments will just go round and round and get nowhere because people like Bush Admirer have no problem with private property, while others see the assertion of property as theft and the original criminal act that set the Empire into motion. You'll just blather at each other about surface points and get nowhere. Recognize this underlying fundamental difference, and there really isn't much to talk about.

Bush Admirer will just stand there complaining about how the government wastes all our tax dollars on "crap" like the NEA and public schools, laughing with all his tax-funded police and guns and missiles pointed at you while shoving his perspective down your throat. And you trying to "argue" or "reason" with him is like sticking your thumb in the barrel of his M-16 and speaking out truth after truth while he laughs and asserts, "Nope, you lost again cuz I'm the superior intelligence/logic nyah nyah nyah!!"

He's right that he's already won the debate before it's begun, but not because he's the superior intelligence (who knows, he might have a superior intelligence--that doesn't preclude making errors in judgment or reason, nor does it preclude the self-delusion of a mind bent on protecting its own economic interests at the cost of reason, logic, or truth)--he's already won the debate because he has all the guns, and surveillance cameras, and nuclear bombs, and chimps sitting in the royal white house carrying out his will.

Honestly, I really don't understand why people like Bush Admirer even feel the need to get on forums like this and argue their point anyway. Dude, you won already. Capital is King. The Empire is unchallenged and its hegemony reigns supreme. What do you have to prove? Why do you feel the need to even prove it in the first place? Why do you bother caring who's right?--you're already getting your way, regardless of who's right, regardless of who can come up with the better "argument." With all those guns and bombs behind you, why waste your time arguing? Like the guy you admire so much who calls himself president, you don't need to argue or discuss anything--you've got your unilateral capital wet dream fully functioning and serving your will. It's like a Roman Emperor wasting his time engaging his slaves in "reasoned debate" over whether slavery is a good idea. What the fuck would he care? He's the Emperor!

Which makes me think that maybe Bush Admirer gives us a small clue that behind all those guns and bombs is more than a little fear. If they weren't afraid, why would they bother arguing with us? Something tells me Empires fall, and Bush Admirer, and Bush, and all the rest on "their" side know this just as well as we do. Guns can protect it and help it carry out its will, but they can't prevent collapse and decay and the natural course of events. A system of violence and imbalance will eventually fall from gravity, natural forces, and the energy of its own violence.

To me, everything seems to point to the rulers either waiting out the devastation of AIDS and the wars they're carrying out and going to be carrying out and all their other policies and agendas etc.--at the other end of which is the promise of them winning the world completely and firmly establishing their rule beyond any kind of challenge--or just going out with a big bang all at once. I'm betting on the latter, because the former is proving too difficult to implement and carry out. They know they can't keep the house of cards up much longer, so they'd rather take it all down with them than concede, and they'll go down arguing the whole way about how right they are and how wrong we are, as if it matters. And that's something that all of us are probably afraid of on some level, if we are even a little conscious. Beyond all this bullshit masquerading as debate is the one fact none of you can deny: Bush Admirer is human, I am human, Sheepdog is human, KPC is human--shit, even T-Mex is human (I think)--and when it all goes up in a big flaming ball, there won't be anyone around to say, "I told you so, I was right!" No one will be right, and no one will be wrong. We'll all just be a bunch of dead humans. And that's just fine for the people on top. They're fighting for their interests just as passionately as we are for ours, and they'd rather die on their feet than live on their knees too. The problem is that they've reached the conclusion that these are their choices--either they die on their feet (and take everyone else with them), or we live on our knees and serve them. Too bad their binary logic overlooks a third possibility that includes everyone together in the same equation--that we could all live on our feet standing on common ground, instead of shooting one another to protect our hold on private ground.

"So here I am -- trying to do something."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Now what the fuck would that be? I think what you are trying to do is be dick, 'sbout all you've been sucessful at.

I can't believe you actually "typed" that tripe....it must be knee deep in that office...just you and your computer.....little David against the Goliath of the left....what's a man to doooo? HA!

You'd be funny if you weren't such a douchebag.

>Why would you object to private property? That's curious.

Just as curious is the question of why you would agree to go along with the concept of private property. Explain how you justify property claims. Explain and justify initial acquisition and use of force. Why do you see the universe as something you can slap a grid on and carve up, rather than something you are part of in an interconnected flow of energy? Where and how do you draw the line, and how do you justify it? Go back in history and tell me where and when this happened, and why you buy it.


>I think privatization is a great idea for most everything.

How far does privatization go--the atoms that my skin comprises, are they private property, while the atoms of hydrogen and oxygen molecules in the air outside my skin are not? What happens when they interact? Are you infringing on my private property rights when you produce carbon dioxide and I breathe it in? And once again, who decides the morality and justification of the privatization process? And how can they justify their decisions without resorting to the imposition of coercion and violence in the face of the arbitrary morality on which they based those decisions, when inevitably, their decisions on property definition and acquisition collide with mine?


>The central positive figure in modern history would be that rare and talented individual known as the 'entrepreneur.' They're the drivewheel of progress.


"Progress?" Progress suggests a linear motion forward from one point in space to another, and temporally, from "past" to "future." It's very curious that you see time and space this way, when it appears they're curved and things are a little more relative than all that (I think that's what Einstein was getting at, but I'm obviously no genius). It's interesting you use the image of a drivewheel, and suggest that you believe it produces some sort of "progress." A wheel just goes round and round, and just because its motion may result in moving a body from one point in space to another, it's a large leap of imagination and illusion to suggest that linear time and spatial progression are therefore proven by this. Where is the center of the universe? When was the beginning of the universe, and when will be the end, and how do these two "points" in time relate to the one at which you currently find yourself right now? I need to know so I can measure my movement and "progression" in relation to it. Otherwise, if any given point in space is the center of the universe, and any given moment in time is infinite and eternal, how am I supposed to figure out where and when I am? Hmmm--that might make it hard to be so obedient to all these timeclocks and funny ideas about "property."

Another thing about the wheel: As the Taoists say, it's the empty space in the middle that the wheel uses to achieve its motion in turning around the axle. Why are you so focused on looking only at the road and admiring the track the wheel has made and will make as it turns?

Oh, and I imagine the universe "universes" just fine without entrepreneurs, or humans of any kind for that matter.



>I got angry. I thought, we've got to do something about this Anti American bullshit.


Why? Like I said, you already won. What the fuck do you have to be angry about? Your government and its allies rule the world, imposing their will and force whenever and however they want, ensuring a "free" market for the capitalist interests they serve. The result is you get to eat all the Big Macs you want, buy electronic gadgets online at 2 in the morning (when you're not busy posting brilliant messages to Indymedia), and drive your SUV to the mall to buy crap you don't need. Oh yeah, and you're, um, free with liberty and justice for all, and all that other stuff. Am I wrong? It's like listening to Yale students bitch and moan about how angry they are because they have to listen to starving kids crying in tent towns outside the walls of their university while they freeze to death. "You're not starving, that's Anti-American disinformation! And if you are, it's your own damn fault anyway because we're right and you're wrong! Let's debate about it before you freeze to death, so you can see how right I am..."

What do you care about Amy Goodman? Who cares if Gore Vidal is "dumb"? I could see if Chomsky and Zinn and Arhandati Roy and all were standing there with Uzis in their hands and a whole arsenal of biological weapons, nuclear bombs, long-range missiles, supercool Black Hawk helicopters, and futuristic unmanned robot planes behind them, all ready to drop bombs on you the minute you disagree with them. But they're not, so what the fuck do you care, BA? What's it matter to you--you're on the winning team man, it's the last twenty seconds and you're up 562 to 0, a few yards from our end zone. Relax, have a beer, kick back and enjoy yourself and the fruits of your victory. Kind of silly to get angry and expend so much time and effort on leaving "no shot unanswered." You want to try to do something? Go to the Bahamas. Take an angery management course.

Dear 48, Bush man admirer and T-Mex,
In Jamaica they privatized Education. Now more than 90% of the elementary school aged students do not go to school, because their parents cannot afford the tuition fee. The American oligarchy want to do the same thing in the U.S. and across the world throuht W.T.O. But people are not dumb, they have been ferociously fighting against any kind of privatization at the elementary level of education for many years. The amount of money needed for a private education would be out of reach for over 40% of the U.S. population. So who would get an education – rich and middle class kids... and screw all the other millions of kids. Because they are not important to the rich. With the tax money saved by privatization, they would cut big corporations taxes even more. Guys if you have any genuine compassion about these kids without education, you should start getting the facts from good books. Restricting some segments of the population from NOT going to school is evil. I don’t think you guys are evil. I think you have been mislead by the corporate media propaganda. Please don’t be hateful. PEACE Marcus

...OK, Don Quixote...

Amy Goodman, who survived the Santa Cruz massacre with Allan Nairnl
in East Timor during the U.S. backed invasion/rape/attempted genocide/occupation of these catholic people.( From 1975 to 1999)
by the Indonesian army. Yes I guess, she has some issues.

...yes, of all the plagues in the world...Amy Goodman and Gore Vidal stand out...


....talk about tilting at windmills.....what a clown!

Like I said before. Round and round and round...

hey, just like your drivewheel BA.


>I don’t think in those terms 48.

Maybe you should, if even for just a few moments. That would involve opening your mind a little and seeing things in a different way. It's a very difficult thing to do, for all of us humans.

Of course everyone wants a fulfilling life, which seems to involve some combination of basic necessities like love and happiness and friends and family and ecstasy and freedom, as well as things like shelter and food and sex. The problem is that your way of thinking leads to a zero sum game, which means that in order for you to have your house on the lake, someone else has to suffer. Another result of that thinking is that you have to use violence to impose your way of thinking. First you convince yourself your way of thinking is right. Then when you encounter others who don't agree, because they see that they are on the losing end of your zero sum game, you call up Lockheed Martin to build you a few missiles so that it won't matter whether they agree or not.

Which brings me back to the same question of why you're even here talking to us--what value can discussion possibly have for you? Why bother with your self-righteous sense of duty for standing up for what's "right" when it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, since you have the guns, the senate, the house, the white house, soon the judicial, the laws, the prisons, the police, the police to police the police, the police to police the police who are policing the police...



>That’s a bit too theoretical for my practical bent.

There is nothing theoretically about nuclear weapons, environmental pollution and degradation, fear, war, death, disease, ignorance. I suppose you could wax theoretical about these things, but when you're experiencing them and when they shape your life, they sure seem pretty damn real.

And as Marcus points out with his example of the state of education in Jamaica, these are only a few of a myriad of real, practical results that directly flow from your concepts of how time and space and the universe work. To see how practical results can flow from "theory," think about this: Somebody theorized a bunch of crazy shit about how atoms work, and somebody else took those ideas and theorized how they could be applied in some very wicked ways, and a few decades later, how many very real Japanese people experienced the very real effects of atomic weapons? Set aside your preconceived ideas of right and wrong for a second and just focus on the idea that real world practical results do flow from ideas and theory.

To me, these are not only practical and real examples of your theory in action, they are also far more meaningful and relevant than a joke about a bicycle, a woman, and some clothes. I know--how about a woman riding a bicycle whose clothes and skin were suddenly melted off her body in a flash of white light. How's that for real?



>You’ve gone off the deep end 48. This is not about theory. We live in the real world. Progress is measured in tangible real world improvements in our standard of living. Computers and the Internet are a good example. BMW’s come to mind.


Okay, so we live in the "real" world. But HOW we live in the real world is shaped by our ideas of what constitutes the real world, what constitutes us, what constitutes living. And those ideas come out of our minds. Are you saying those ideas are not part of the "real" world, and our minds are not part of the "real" world? To me, that sounds way metaphysical and off the deep end, BA. You're almost sounding profound or something.

People like you love to talk about the "real" world and dismiss any discussion of theory or ideas because you don't want people to make the connection between the two, because then the jig would be up, the curtain pulled aside, the wizard exposed.

Progress is measured by YOU in tangible real world improvements in standard of living, and that measure is based on YOUR ideas of those standards, and what constitutes "living." Even if I concede that that there are some "real world" examples we can use to measure "progress" if we are applying it to the standard of living, that doesn't mean we're going to use the same measures or come to the same conclusions.

Which brings us back to your need for Lockheed Martin.

Example: Computers and the Internet and BMWs are indeed examples of how we might measure our standard of living--I imagine the poor slob surfing porn and shopping for crap on Ebay at 3 in the morning might imagine there has been some kind of "improvement" in his standard of living because of this new "freedom" he has. And I imagine people looking for news and information that does not come from a corporate-owned source might also imagine there has been some kind of improvement in their standard of living because of the internet. I imagine the BMW driver imagines there has been an improvement in her standard of living because she can drive in her vehicle from one meaningless, unfulfilling experience to another, very quickly, without having to interact with the outside world, and without having to acknowledge or even being aware of how her consumption of gas degrades the environment and leads to very real things like wars and death and pollution and suffering of other human beings. And I imagine another BMW driver might imagine her life has been improved because she can drive from one protest event to another to help fight corporate globalization or whatever.

But all that stuff is theoretical, right? All that's real is the naked woman pixelated on the computer screen, and the nice little needle creeping up the speedometer of a BMW--as long as their "standards" of living are "improved," who cares how the standards of living for others suffer in order to make that happen, and who cares if their idea of standards collides with and obliterates that of others? It's all just ideas competing, all theory, nothing real. And who cares how meaningless and unfulfilling the measure of a BMW turns out to be when applied to real happiness--oh wait, right, happiness is just theoretical. A Beamer is real. Who needs to worry about being truly happy when you've got your little German-engineered shell of joy to protect you from the world, and your computer screen to shield you from real interaction with other human beings?

In addition to computers and beamers, some other examples we might use to measure "progress" when applied to standard of living include pollution, war, famine, death, violence.

And in applying these other measures, we might also want to try the concept of including everyone in the idea of living when examining standards, instead of just ourselves. This might lead to measuring standards of living outside the very narrow band of our own personal interests. But this would take realizing that we are all one and all interconnected with ultimately the same interests in common, and that might be a little too much off the deep end for some. It's easier to just leave all those other "real" people in the convenient virtual world of theory and ideas.


>Whoa! The Taoists? You’ve got to be kidding. They’re roughly equivalent to the hippies in the 1960’s (unwashed vagrants).


That's funny. Round and round.

Okay sorry, maybe I should stick to the Western world, don't want to cause you too much discomfort. Would it sound better if I quoted one of your Greeks instead? Heraclitus maybe? I hear he bathed often.

Or how about Jesus? Talk about being an unwashed stinky vagrant and a hippie! Good thing intelligent people don't measure (there's that word again) wisdom and truth by "standards" of personal hygiene.


>Pacifica Radio and Indymedia are a danger to America. Good citizens will rise up against them.


Here he comes to save the day!


>Oh my 48. Those two people are an insult, a disruption, they’re propoganda, but most of all they’re very very wrong. I feel a duty to stand up for what’s right. Amy Goodman and Gore Vidal are what’s wrong.


Well, I guess I have to respect your unwavering sense of doodee.

It just seems like so much work trying to prove how right you are and how justified your indignation is, especially when it seems quite clear, by your own words and by just looking around us at the world to see how thoroughly your views dominate, that there's no need. It's interesting how people who proclaim the loudest and strongest about how right they are are usually the ones who seem to need to do the most and loudest proclaiming of anyone. And when they're not busy talking about how right they are, they're amassing weapons to back it all up. It makes me think--if you're so right about everything, why would you need to constantly tell everyone about it? And why do you need to make so many weapons to enforce how "right" you are? Wouldn't it make more sense to just live your life according to your views and let your life be an example of how right you are? Isn't that how all your free market ideas work (uh-oh, ideas, theory...): if your ideas are superior, then wouldn't they just win out over time in a free competition? Or do they require a little extra "oomph" to help crush any other ideas? Is your sharing your views here, relentlessly, sort of like how the US stations troops and weapons all over the world in order to make sure everybody sees and agrees with the benefits of ideas (uh-oh) like freedom and liberty and democracy?

And as for compassion: It is not lacking. So many people enslaved, so many people suffering in so many different ways. But as BA makes clear, the very real, practical enslavement of our lives has its source in an enslavement by ideas and theory (with the backing of weapons, of course--but none of which is as powerful as the weapon of one's own mind turned against oneself)--and it all works because people ignore and obscure and are blind to the connection between the two.

Attacking the ideas that enslave us is not a denial of compassion, nor is it a way of avoiding the "real" world of uneducated poor and other people suffering. If the rulers have achieved all of this by convincing themselves and the world of their illusions, by hypnotizing people with faulty ideas, by tricking us in turning our minds against our selves as if they were two separate things, then doesn't it make sense to defend ourselves and mount counter-attacks on the same front?

BA: Relax. Those are just windmills turning. Round and round and round...

How does someone like me fit into creating social justice? I have never been exposed to police brutality, although I know it exists. But I personally can't run around calling police "pigs" and using the f-word; it would be totally against my character and personality.

I think the first thing is to ask the question of how you fit in or want to fit in. The next thing is to answer it yourself, and then take action according to whatever answer you come up with. I think all of it is really one big action--the asking, the striving for an answer even if one is never forthcoming, the taking action in response.

Personally, I think Christians have played a huge role in the rise of capitalism, and I think they have just as important a role to play in its demise or transformation, if they so choose. But I'm not part of any Christian faith, so that's just an outsider's view of it.

Bush Admirer, as expected, you don't address my questions or points, and so I really feel no need to address yours beyond what I already have. Example: I make a point about how ideas lead to real-world results, and you completely ignore it and try to shift it to the surface issue of whether or not it was okay to use nuclear weapons on Japan, even though I specifically said to ignore for a moment questions of right and wrong and just focus on the point I was making. Why is that? Not in the script? Who knows, maybe I agree wholeheartedly with you--in fact, let's just say I do: rah rah USA, hurray for using nukes on Japan! That was the right thing to do. Now, I have hypothetically agreed with your aborted attempt to shift the issue. Address the real point I was making. (I'll hold my breath.)

You said you admire my candor; I wish I could say the same of you. It's clear to everyone here that you are not interested in discussing anything, nor are you interested in countering "disinformation" and standing up for what's right. You are here to waste people's time and call people names. You are here to go round and round and round. Honestly, though your postings sometimes give rise to others posting interesting ideas in response, I really hope they boot you off Indymedia--not because I want to see your ideas censored, but because you have no real ideas to censor in the first place, and your tactics of discussion and debate are so crude, violent, primitive and steeped in ignorance and malicious intent that they don't really warrant the time and effort to try to learn something from debating with you--and you certainly display no desire (or is it ability?) to learn from the ideas and intelligence of others who might be willing to talk to you here. Basically, you just waste our time by engaging in these non-arguments and then turn it all around and say we are the ones incapable and unwilling to discuss things. Classic tactic, especially from people like you.

Someone posted elsewhere that if we can't debate around you or T-Mex, then we have something to learn from you. I think this is correct up to a certain point, but only to the point of understanding that people like you are not capable of discussing anything, nor are you sincerely striving to engage in a real dialogue. I suppose one could learn the different tactics people like you use in order to avoid any and all communication and waste other people's time with something that looks like debate but is really just a clever maze designed to waste time and pump up your ego. But this is about all we can learn from you, and beyond this, I think it's incorrect in this case to say we have much else to learn from you because it suggests the ability--and willingness--on your part to actually debate and engage in rational discussion. But self-delusion has never led to rational discussion--this is something I learned a long time ago in talking to people like you. This is why you cannot really discuss anything, and why ultimately, you must have to have all the guns on your side. If you had rational arguments and reason on your side, you wouldn't need to back up your position with violence.

You can now carry on and continue to ignore everything I said and every point I made and resort to your tired scripted write-off of how lefties can't hold up a debate, I've obviously lost because you're smarter and better informed and your ideas are rational and mine are not etc. etc. (You can respond to this with your usual "I'm glad you admit it 48" or some other lame stab at sarcasm) I have no interest in proving to you or anyone that I'm right and you're not, and since that's what this discussion is devolving into, at your insistence, like all your other "debates" in this forum, I feel no need to stick around. I've said what I wanted to say already on this topic anyway. If you have any questions, just go back and read my other posts.

That guy 48 sure can write. Talking about getting
nailed to the wall eh, T. Mex,Bush Admirer and other
government noise?

actually Marc Stuart had the most salient comment on that
thread. And my reaction to your unsupported callus retorts
is a bad influence on me. Your attitude towards Amy Goodman is really irritating. In fact your attitude towards anyone who doesn’t goose-step down the aisle of reich wing rhetoric with you and your cointel pro clones irritate me. Yeah I admire Amy. She is one of the major reasons East Timor had an independence celebration after the U.S. backed Indonesian army (1975-1999) invaded and occupied that tiny country during a period of horror and terror as the press in this country looked the other way. She didn’t, and that’s why she is hated by your kind.

It is you who is the queen of disinformation.
Your opinion is evident but not your support of it.
You don't have to listen to “Democracy Now” . Many people do because she is a voice of reason (unlike yourself) in a sea of chanting 'liberal' media (which could never be right-
wing enough for you) who all slurp out of the pentagon
troth. Having expressed my disdain for your world view and opinion, I will now consider you the government paid tool you are. And ignore you and your but buffing buddy S.S.

HaHa ha scared of one evil, mean, enemy woman.
Ha ha ha. Going good on this, Mr. Admirer.
Do you sleep with the night light on?
There could be a lefty out there in the shadows ha ha ha ha

BAisms
-Most of the name calling is in response to my posts.-
-She's a treasonous bitch-
-She is a real danger to America and the democratic freedoms we enjoy in America-
and then the immediate contradiction
-She abuses the first amendment to the limit.-
-She needs to be curtailed -
Yes this is good. Very good. I’m very impressed. You sound like a real law and order kind of person.
In a civilized society, a person like you is a danger to
the rest of us.

BushBlower...you're such a dick...we got big bad Saddam who's threatin' us with, what....a website or two...a radio show...maybe a newspaper article of mass destruction here and there...

...Oh, wait a minute..that's not Saddam, that's IndyMedia, Amy Goodman, and Gore Vidal...you got me all confused with my "Official BushBlowers Threats to America" list...(it's like a thousand pages or something...Barbara Streisand....Alec Baldwin....Ed Asner...)

The Monday before last, on Melrose avenue, I wanted to get a picture taken in front of 'The Gig', where a friend of mine had his name in lights on the bill.

A girl was passing by and I asked her if I coudld get a picture of myself with the friends name in lights.

Since the sidewalk was narrow, the girl had to step out into the street to get the shot.

The police drove by, stopped, and began to issue her a citation for walking into the street.

I got smart and the pollice asked me to sit on the bus stop. I did.

After the girl was cited, the police had her leave. Both police than escorted me around the corner, after a few harsh words, discreetly beat me very hard with batons, while saying things like 'your mama should have told you not to talk back', etc.

It happened so quickly. Noone saw.

I now have two broken ribs.

Thank You

what a joke
you fucking commies make me sick with your protest,
all i see are a bunch of ARAs,non-whites and nigger lovers that look stupid!!!

whites and blacks 100 facts_fact 53_washington D.C
The district of columbia,which is approximately 70% black,leads the U.S in many areas:1. The nations highest crime rates 2.strictest gun control 3.highest incarceration rates 4.highest birthrate 5.highest death rate 6.highest rate of federal assistance per capita 7.highest number of welfare recipients 8.highest rate of illegitimacy 9.highest high school dropout rate even though it's teachers are the highest paid in the US 10.the highest rate of ghonnorrhea and syphilis 11.highest incidence of AIDS! stop your whinning niggers your the problem not the L.A.PD OR ANY OTHER PD, GET OUT NIGGERS!!!!!!!!!

whites and blacks 100 facts_fact 53_washington D.C
The district of columbia,which is approximately 70% black,leads the U.S in many areas:1. The nations highest crime rates 2.strictest gun control 3.highest incarceration rates 4.highest birthrate 5.highest death rate 6.highest rate of federal assistance per capita 7.highest number of welfare recipients 8.highest rate of illegitimacy 9.highest high school dropout rate even though it's teachers are the highest paid in the US 10.the highest rate of ghonnorrhea and syphilis 11.highest incidence of AIDS! stop your whinning niggers your the problem not the L.A.PD OR ANY OTHER PD, GET OUT NIGGERS!!!!!!!!!

To hitlershenchmen:
What a racist asshole.

"To hitlershenchmen:
What a racist asshole"

Yeah, never mind the facts! Reality be damned. It doesn't matter if the evidence at hand is true. You see, you cannot attack a "protected" class of people, no matter how fucked up they happen to be. They can murder all the people they want. They can sell dope on every street corner, it doesn't matter. As soon as you point these things out, you become the "criminal", because we all know that there is nothing in this world (genocide, rape, pedophilia, drug dealing, etc.) worse than being a racist, right?

Here you go, link, from one of your comrades...

"Watch out! He's Indian!
by M • Tuesday December 03, 2002 Tuet 01:59 PM
seattle


You had to drag this little bit of news all the way from Minnesota to justify your political agenda? What a sad person..."

Just replace "Minnesota" with "Louisville" and you're good to go.

Thanks Lynx-11
You bring em out, we’ll bookmark them.
I know who you are, and I thank you for your contributions.

bush admirer, "Take a look at the photos above. Look at the indians. Look at the guy with the pornographic T-Shirt! What sort of message do you think they're sending to passers by??"

what pornographic t-shirt? what are you talking about?

A crowd of more than 130 people marched Sunday (Dec. 23rd, 2002)seeking justice for what they said was police brutality in connection with the death of Willie Kimbrough Jr.
Police Chief Resigned Friday, Dec. 21 (update of Cocoa, Florida killing)

ACLU sues over Miami police killing of homeless schizophrenic Richard Beatty (update from Miami)

County agencies hit in Copwatch report (update from Houston)

los angeles

Oakland 12/30/02:
"After school, about 45 students and teachers protested alleged police brutality"

(general relevance) Denver 12/30/02:
"Tearing a page from the history books, Indians began an occupation, following the lead of elders who in years past had protested broken treaty promises, vanished fishing rights and police brutality."

los angeles

01/09/03 Long Beach:

"A report detailing alleged police brutality and abuse of power prompted two top city officials Thursday to announce that they are pushing for a police oversight committee made up of residents."

01/10/03 Illinois:

"Illinois Governor George Ryan says he is pardoning four death row inmates who he says were wrongly prosecuted and convicted.... Governor Ryan says all four men were tortured into false confessions by police."

Los Angeles

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01/11/03 San Francisco:

cops investigating cops....

01/12/03 follow up on Illinois story:

"As Illinois begins emptying its death row by order of the governor, opponents of capital punishment are setting their sights on wider reforms...."

thanks to 'web snoop' for great links:

The Exonerated

The Innocence Project

see also: Illinois commutation thread

Los Angeles

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MA, 01/16/03:

"He was unarmed. He was shot three or four times. His teeth were knocked out. There's no reason for that. There's no reason for him to get shot," said Hayden's nephew, Jeremiah Rivier.

Los Angeles

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anticrisis

01/26/03:

"Former Black Panther Leader Goes High Tech"

01/21/03:

"A north Jackson [Mississippi] woman says she was physically and verbally abused Monday night around 10 o'clock by a policeman and taken into custody for simply laughing when he stumbled."

read about CAPA (Coalition Against Police Abuse)

Los Angeles

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7/24/03 thursday evening in south florida:

A group of about 60 people, fed up with what they see as police brutality in Fort Lauderdale, told Chief Bruce Roberts on Thursday night that they want the officer caught on video ramming his knee into a handcuffed and shackled suspect fired and the officers who pepper-sprayed a man who later died suspended.

meanwhile in Inglewood?

Human Rights Watch says: The excessive use of force by police officers, including unjustified shootings, severe beatings, fatal chokings, and rough treatment, persists because overwhelming barriers to accountability make it possible for officers who commit human rights violations to escape due punishment and often to repeat their offenses.

Los Angeles
CAPA
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"the first organized police forces, according to police historian William Geller, were the varied slave patrols. Policing in this country has always had the dual purpose of maintaining social order and enforcing the racial hierarchy."

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NAACP: Chief Should Resign

The NAACP is accusing the police department of South Bend, Indiana, of police brutality and it wants South Bend's Police Chief, Tom Fautz, to resign.

meanwhile in Inglewood.....
Los Angeles
CAPA
anarchist people of color conference october 2003
anticrisis
lynx
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latest comments

protests planned

Associated Press
Sept. 8, 2003
On Aug. 25, Mesa Arizona police shot and killed 15-year-old Mario Madrigal Junior. Saturday, officers fatally shot a 23-year-old woman. A group called People United Against Police plan to demonstrate Monday outside the Mesa Police Department.
They will be protesting today (Monday Sept. 8th, '03) because of the fatal shootings of two people by Mesa police in the past two weeks.

Phoenix United Against Police
Phoenix Anarchist Coalition
Arizona IMC thread
Phoenix Copwatch
Stolen Lives in Arizona

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lynx

latest comments

That's all the info we get. Why were these people shot? What was the situation?

The fact that two people were shot by the police means absolutely nothing in and of itself.

Details, young man. Details.

Or would the details tend to shed an ill light on your heros?

What people keep failing to mention is the fact that if the officers use force it is because their lives are being threatened, people file lawsuits against the cops for shooting a family member when it was that person that lunged at officers with a knife or gun or put other innocent bystanders in danger in the first place. What are these idiots thinking when they sue the police depts for such things? Like Donovan Jacksons case should have been thrown out of the courts and the only reason I believe that it was looked at was because of fear of retaliation from the black community , regardless if it was a ridiculous case to begin with. We have to many officials and politicians trying to put a pacifier in the black and hispanic communities mouth instead of having some balls and telling them that they are wrong

see cross post at az-imc:

http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/11824_comment.php#12129
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photos 1
photos 2
cop tribune story and photo
repression against People United Against Police
background info - good thread
getting the word out to L.A.

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some transparency at AZ-IMC, still none at LA-IMC
[recently, john k at la-imc has been a slight exception to this strict rule. people anywhere who want their IMC to be useful to them should practice and demand transparency and participation in web design and decision making. that should be the point of independent media.]

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Phoenix United Against Police
Phoenix Anarchist Coalition
Arizona IMC thread
Phoenix Copwatch
Stolen Lives in Arizona

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lynx

latest L.A. comments

latest AZ comments

why are you all such retards?...why can't you get a life and act like a human being, rather then trying to be someone who you aren't?