Hello,

Thank you to the author of the article http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=33796&group=webcast for naming a painful truth about the sponsorship of Not In Our Name.

Of course NION is a front for the bizarre maoist cult, the Revolutionary Communist Party. And we need to be honest about this. See the RCP's web site, http://rwor.org/wh-new.htm .

For that reason, many groups didn't sign on to the NION pledge (and have created alternative pledges, see http://www.peacepledge.org/ and http://www.wri-irg.org/en/index.html) even though the NION pledge itself was cleverly and beautifully written to hide the RCP role. That's what front groups are for.

Of course, many people worked on and came to this demonstration because of the importance of saying no to war, and that's what is encouraging. Most who did so know nothing of the RCP's role, and wouldn't dream of supporting the authoritarianism, patriarchal militarism, homophobia, and general support for murderousness (support of Mao's Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution and the resulting death of over 20 million human beings, the Shining Path of Peru, etc.) of the Maoist positions the RCP takes.

Similarly, many will go to D.C. on October 26th because of the importance of demonstrating in D.C. against the war, even though the organizing for that is dominated by another cultish front group, this time the Trostskyist, Tiananmen-Square-massacre supporting, Workers World Party, through their front groups, the International Action Center and the ANSWER "coalition."

I am afraid that the domination of many of our anti-war coalitions by these authoritarian groups gravely damages our ability to mobilize people into genuine movements for peace, liberty, and justice.

In Peace,
Sam Diener

"Every relationship of domination, of exploitation, of oppression is by definition violent, whether or not the violence is expressed by drastic means. In such a relationship, dominator and dominated alike are reduced to
things - the former dehumanized by an excess of power, the latter by a lack of it. And things cannot love."
- Paulo Freire

I think that the biggest obstacles to peace are homicidal maniacs like Saddam Hussein and leaders of the radical Islamist movements that killed 3000 innocents one day last year.

Forget the "propaganda" and just look at what the independent press says about Saddam's Iraq. He executes political rivals, tortures his enemies and builds palaces and statutes of himself while child die of treatable diseases. (Then he blames the sanctions!)

Frankly, while one could debate whether US interests are best served by eliminating Saddams rule, I don't see how any rational person could claim that the international community wouldn't be improved by ridding the world of him. Its beyond question that the people of Iraq would have nothing to lose and much to gain by regime change.

Yet, no one is protesting against Iraq's conduct. It drives me crazy.

What is it? A racist notion that we can't expect A-rabs to have good governments? I don't know, but it seems to me that many people who were out there protesting are in need of some cognitive realignment.

Los Angeles converges for the best and biggest turnout to protest war and what do we get? Reservations from an individual about who sponsored or endorsed it. Sounds to me like you would do well working for the Bush Administration. I attended the march and still would have regardless of who sponsored or endorsed the anti-war protest. I was there all day and nobody forced any maoist ideas on me. I'm not a member of RCP, NION or any NGO. I'm not protesting to defend anyone except the victims of U.S. Foreign Policy. Shouldn't we be criticizing and questioning U.S. Domestic and Foreign Policy instead of the organizations which sponsor permitted and peaceful war protest? If your prefered organizations sponsor a anti-war protest, I will surely attend. However, if your prefered organizations decide to focus its attention on protesting the RCP or Maoist ideas I probably wouldn't be attending your march unless those particular groups were currently responsible for killing and exploiting human beings all over the world for corporate profit.

Not In Our Name kicked ass across the whole country.

You can talk about American interests, the international community, and commie front groups all you want. All the Iraqi people know is that they don't want to be bombed again.

In response to anti-war:

you say, "However, if your prefered organizations decide to focus its attention on protesting the RCP or Maoist ideas I probably wouldn't be attending your march unless those particular groups were currently responsible for killing and exploiting human beings all over the world for corporate profit."

You missed the point of the critique. No one has suggested protesting the RCP. But, because of the history of the RCP and the implications of their politics, many people will NOT work with them. In translation, the peace movement might be MUCH bigger if it weren't for the association with this organization.

And as the original poster pointed out, many people will rightly come out to protest having no idea that the RCP is related to NION. I came out and still will, but it does a GREAT disservice not to acknowledge how sneaky the RCP is in using popular movements to coopt them for their goals. I WANT NO PART OF THEIR POLITICS for the reasons articulated above. And, quite honestly, I would rather live under a BUSH than a MAO, or a Shining Path.

Also, many good people are working with NION having NO IDEA that the RCP is in the background. How is that for open democratic practices? You can't TELL ME that this is justifiable!

reposter

Responses:

T-Mex: your naive if you think that BUSH cares about freeing the Iraqi people from terror. It isn't about that. Not to mention BUSH/Cheney business relationships and support for him during his worst atrocities through the 80's.

Me: NION didn't kick ass across the country. It was the people who kicked ass. Looking to one organization to point to success is exactly what the RCP wants: legitimacy. and they don't deserve it.

JK: getting bombs off Iraqi people is the ultimate goal. smugly saying what the people of Iraq want isn't helpful. no kidding. what we need to do is be honest about how we can expand resistance to BUSH. Not being honest about strategy and public perception with respect to NION/RCP/etc will NOT help.

reposter

here's the real rational for invading IRAQ written from friends of BUSH/CHENEY (a right wing "think tank"):

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Our job is to put a stop to this war and the dogs that are running. It's really sad when we as a people can't unite on this one very important thing. Yesterday's event was needed to let the people of the world know that there are people in this country that disagree with what's going on. An anti-war movement needs people from all different walks of life, religions, race, and yes even political views, to get together and say "No, Not in our Name" will we allow you to go to war for the sake of war, for greediness. There is nothing more that the leaders of this war want then to divide the anti-war movement before it even gets started. yesterday's events where amazing and were needed by the people in this country, who disagree with what's going on. I heard many people yesterday talk about how this was needed to voice dissent because dissent is not allowed any more, and how good it felt to be around people who felt the same way. I felt it too, the energy, the hope and the idea that our voice can be heard and that we together can put a stop to this war machine. Let's stop questioning who, or what, and let's say what can we do. Before we critize let's learn and have an open mind. I don't see the RCP bombing innocent victims in Afganistan, giving bombs to Israel to kill the Palestinians. the RCP is not passing all these unconstitutional, repressive measures against the people of this country, and it's immigrants. the RCP doesn't have Muslim/Arabs detained, the RCP did not write the US Patriotic Act. This is a time when we learn who is on the side of right and wrong. This system made this war, and we need to put a stop to it, talking shit about people who are on the side of the people and on the side of stopping this war, doesn't help the anti-war movement, and only gives the war machine more fuel to keep doing what they do, which is to spill the blood of innocent people.

I agree with much of what you say. I am not interested in dividing this resistance. HOWEVER, if you want to talk about democracy, and not practice it, that is your business.

you say, "Let's stop questioning who, or what, and let's say what can we do."

excuse me? i don't think you mean what you write. we must not stop questioning, especially the role of the RCP.

you say, "Before we critize let's learn and have an open mind. I don't see the RCP bombing innocent victims in Afganistan, giving bombs to Israel to kill the Palestinians. the RCP is not passing all these unconstitutional, repressive measures against the people of this country, and it's immigrants. the RCP doesn't have Muslim/Arabs detained, the RCP did not write the US Patriotic Act."

Have you read the critique. do you understand what the RCP supports? They support movements whose policies are FAR HARSHER than the Patriot Act, far more destructive than Israel has been, etc. TWENTY MILLION people were wiped out because of the Maoist culteral revolution and related policies. Make no mistake about the politics of the RCP.

I don't want to divide this movement, I want it to GROW. NOT being honest about the RCP will stifle our growth. THAT is the point. In order to grow, the RCP should stand aside. Did you even read the above responses?

reposter

I think you underestimate everyday people. What makes you think that the popular movement isn't using or coopting the organized for the greater goal of uniting a massive peace movement?

I'm concerned about what the RCP stands for. I'm more concerned about what the Bush Administration stands for.

It is a greater dis-service to divide the anti-war movement than to unite it.

Mao is dead.

Bush is alive and fronting the largest regime on the planet.

i don't agree with this statement:

"It is a greater dis-service to divide the anti-war movement than to unite it."

I am certainly NOT interested in dividing the anti-war movement, and I think it is very misleading to suggest that exposing the RCP would DIVIDE the anti-war movement since they are a TINY fraction. It would be more like removing a splinter from a democratic movement that doesn't hide in the shadows and disguise its intentions. Indeed, as i have said before, exposing them will more likely INCREASE the anti-war movement.

And to be honest, I don't think our protests are going to stop the war if we look at it strategically. The sellout DEMS are going to give BUSH what he wants. BUT, we should nevertheless increase our presence on the streets and find new tactics and strategies to resist the coming genocide.

reposter

"they are a TINY fraction" I agree. That is precisely what I'm talking about.

Why would you want to spend energy exposing a tiny fraction at the expense of dividing a potential united front building momentum to expose and stop a global regime THE U.S.A.? I'm optimistic, yes.

The Civil Rights Movement was achieved domestically by a mass movement of diverse organizations and people led by a man of the church. Not everyone agreed politically but everyone shared a common goal for basic human rights. Many whites shared the common goal for a Civil Rights Movement despite conservative right wingers labeling them as commies and promoting a "Red Scare" as a tactic to divide public opinion. Did the commies take over? No. Did we achieve a Civil Rights Movement? Yes.

I don't know where to begin. Did the RCP, along with many other people, initiate the Not In Our Name group and statement? It would appear so.

And good for them.

The RCP has had some problematic politics, but find me the group who hasn't and I'll buy you lunch for a year. All and all, they come out pretty good.

Have they ever acting on behalf of the US government? No.

Do they support regime change in the US?
Yes.

Are they communists?
Yes.

What does that mean?
They support a society where the common people rule, where there are no borders or prisons or people getting rich off of someone else. They support the self-determination of ethnic minorities in the US. They support women's full and equal participation in every aspect of life. They support revolution here and around the world. They are internationalists.

They also have some peculiar ideas about how this will happen. But I've got to say, they did wonders in the last year. Right now they are involved in figuring out their politics and general method and if Not In Our Name is any indication of where they are going – I support them that far. But of course, NION isn't just the RCP and that should be obvious. It certainly was in New York City where just about every group that exists came out to the action.

Don't blame the RCP for the sectarianism of anti-authoritarians who won't work with them. Blame the sectarians. The author of the original piece says that "many" people won't work with them and blah blah blah. Well, where the hell are those precious activists now? Doing what? Where? Please.

The amount of bile passing for commentary is remarkable. Not In Our Name just managed to puncture the lull in dissent for the last year and a handfull of nominal "anti-authoritarians" are taking responsibility for red-baiting the good work they've done all around the country.

This "article" that we are all responding to here was posted not just in LA, but all across the Indymedia network. It is full of half-truths and makes no effort to get a response not just from NION or the RCP, but from any of the activists who made these protests happen.

That is bullshit. Join Not In Our Name. Meet and talk with the diverse activists currently involved. Then write your bullshit expose. I knew this was coming. I am so tired of these losers who only know how to sabotage and have nothing positive to offer.

And I wonder, who is the real "authoritarian?" Red-baiting used to be the job of the FBI. Now they don't have to worry because we've got so-called "anti-authoritarians" to do it these days. And they never give their names. Chickenshit motherfuckers.

I really wish the decent people who aren't ideologically motivated would stand up to this kind of dishonest and pathetic baiting. We are in the thick of it and have no need for these anonymous tirades.

In response to Burningman's outrageous apologies for the RCP:

...
The RCP has had some problematic politics, but find me the group who hasn't and I'll buy you lunch for a year. All and all, they come out pretty good.

you obviosly don't know much about the RCP then. They are opportunists in every sense of the word. Have you read their USA Manifesto written by Chairman BOB? It calls for the re-education of homosexuals once in power because being gay is a disease of capitalism. Their Shining Path comrades in Peru routinely murdered peasants and farmers who did not support them, or supported the MRTA instead.

...
Have they ever acting on behalf of the US government? No.

Irrelevant. Mao wasn't acting on behalf of the US government either during his cultural revolution genocide which the US RCP has been apologists for in the past.

...
Do they support regime change in the US?
Yes.
...

Irrelevant. So does the KKK and many right wing extremest groups.

...
What does that mean?
They support a society where the common people rule, where there are no borders or prisons or people getting rich off of someone else.
...

Are you joking? Are you aware of what goes on in Mao's china? What happened over the past 50 years of brutal torture, imprisonment, anti-labor, etc., etc? That is the legacy the RCP supports.

...
They support the self-determination of ethnic minorities in the US. They support women's full and equal participation in every aspect of life. They support revolution here and around the world. They are internationalists.
...


They also are dangerous homophobes and are organized along a strict hierarchy whose GOAL it is to overthrow the existing state and replace it with a totalitarian government with Bob as its leader. Make no mistake about their rhetoric. just read it.

...
Don't blame the RCP for the sectarianism of anti-authoritarians who won't work with them. Blame the sectarians. The author of the original piece says that "many" people won't work with them and blah blah blah. Well, where the hell are those precious activists now? Doing what? Where? Please.
...


First, the article above doesn't claim to be an anti-authoritarian, but warns of the RCP's totalitarian tendancies (in general). Second, as i stated above which you probably didn't read, i don't want to work with an organization who shows no signs of democratic tendancies by carefully hiding its affiliation. they have done this sneaky shit for years.

...
Not In Our Name just managed to puncture the lull in dissent for the last year and a handfull of nominal "anti-authoritarians" are taking responsibility for red-baiting the good work they've done all around the country.
...


This is bullshit. Where is this "handful of nominal 'anti-authoritarians' [that are] taking responsibility for red-baiting the good work"? what are you talking about? first, as is stated above, a large MAJORITY of the people who came out did so having no clue about the RCP, and did so because it was the right thing to do. NION has organizers who didn't even know the RCP was involved!! And most importantly, people would have come out regardless of who organized the protests. This ridiculous counter attack on anti-authoritarians is irrelevant. Pointing out the dangers of the RCP will help the movement grow, NOT DIVIDE it.
You must remember the historical context of why people are deeply concerned about the RCP.

...
This "article" that we are all responding to here was posted not just in LA, but all across the Indymedia network. It is full of half-truths and makes no effort to get a response not just from NION or the RCP, but from any of the activists who made these protests happen.
...


Oh Really? please explain the half-truths for us? what are you referring to? I don't think you have carefully studied the RCP to know their history.

...
I am so tired of these losers who only know how to sabotage and have nothing positive to offer.
...


No one here is interested in sabotaging the protests against the war. We are interested in seeing it GROW. But if the RCP is affiliated in the shadows, what do you think will happen when that hits the headlines in mainstream america? It will decisively cripple the movement because the RCP are authoritarian communist opportunists who want Bob Avakian to lead the country into a glorious Mao-styled revolution. GET A CLUE dude!

...
And I wonder, who is the real "authoritarian?" Red-baiting used to be the job of the FBI. Now they don't have to worry because we've got so-called "anti-authoritarians" to do it these days. And they never give their names. Chickenshit motherfuckers.
...


Now i call total bullshit. Turning a critique of the RCP into supporters of the state is ludicrous and a typical RCP tactic actually. The so-called anti-authoritarians you despise are the same ones spawned a new generations of activists in the anti-corporate globalization movement, INCLUDING INDYMEDIA!!
AND, why does someone have to give their name when posting? That is the goal and purpose of Open Publishing in indymedia...TO PROTECT THE RIGHT OF ANONYMITY FOR INDIVIDUALS that fear the state, or perhaps, the RCP.

...
I really wish the decent people who aren't ideologically motivated would stand up to this kind of dishonest and pathetic baiting. We are in the thick of it and have no need for these anonymous tirades.
...


So here it is, the final words of someone that can't stand to be challenged on their bullshit and calls critiques of those who hide in shadows "anonymous tirades." All i can say is thank god for the anti-authoritarianism of INDYMEDIA, otherwise if MR. Burningman were running the show, we would probably have to present our ID to post here, and even then, it wouldn't get published because we were red-baiting the secretive authoritarians who want to see Bob "homophobic psychopath" Avakian in charge.

to open publishing, democratic principles, anti-authoritarianism, and calling out bullshit when the RCP lurks in the shadows of popular resistance.

reposter.

Boo fucking hoo to all of you! Who owns the movement? I'll tell you who. Not any one of your political ideologies (or lack thereof), grassroots NGO, the church or the state.

The movement belongs to the men, women and children all over the world who suffer and die at the hands of U.S. Foreign Policy. At the hands of people who try to justify "pre-emptive strike in self defense".

Take a look at yourselves debating the poor lives of millions past and present from the comfort of your computer rooms while REAL bombs will be dropping on peoples heads very soon courtesy of "the free and the brave".

(Free did I say?)

Excuse me while I kiss the sky.

1) I never baited anti-authoritarians, but rather "a handfull of nominal anti-authoritarians" for their disingenuous attacks on NION and the awesome work of the last few weeks.

That's right – tons of people were involved in NION, including the RCP. I was in NYC and I can tell you it wasn't an RCP rally. One of their supporters spoke from the stage. And good. She said some decent things in a somewhat vulgar manner (lots of swearing and so on). What's wrong with that?

Anti-war, you can be an anti-communist. America's got no shortage of them. This is hardly the forum for a longer debate on what happened in China and the Soviet Union when they were socialist.

But I feel it is reprehensible to brutally attack and slander activists who just pulled off an incredible display of unity and breath and diversity by fixating on the involvement of a Marxist group.

This movement doesn't belong to anyone. If any group has demonstrated that effectively in the last week, it is Not In Our Name. Their pluralism you call sneaky.

If anyone is interested in what the RCP thinks, go to their website and read their materials. Some will like it, some will not. I am not a member and disagree with many aspects of how they have TRADITIONALLY organized. But I believe all people are capable of change and if they are rising to this occassion, then they deserve credit – especially from critics. They are, I believe, responding to criticism.

But you don't want that you sectarian dope. You want this movement to be about the process of the left. That is narrow minded and sectarian in the most basic ways.

And lastly, the RCP has changed their program to remove the anti-gay ideas they carried for far too long. Again, right on. It's a little known fact that the left used to be almost entirely homophobic, particularly in the 60s and 70s. I personally argued with, met with and struggled with RCP members and supporters for years over their backwards line and am impressed they finally had the gumption to admit they were wrong. So stop beating a dead horse.

Independent activists, organization and collectives should attend meetings of Not In Our Name and make up their own minds.

You'll never learn the truth in this cyber-swamp. If you find the meetings exclusionary, undemocratic, whatever, struggle to improve it or start a group you feel more comfortable in.

And don't take the bile of people like "Anti-war" as representative of anything but their own sour grapes. We've got a world to win.

How eloquent and romantic you are. You remind me of my dead uncle who actually struggled to be absolved in his last years and finally did due to finding god and being reborn. Hey, whatever works right? I'll see you on the front lines with my sour grapes. Maybe we'll exchange nice words to eachother and one of us will really mean them.

Anti-war, my apologies. I wasn't responding to you but rather to "Reposter." I agree with a good amount of what you had to say and just noticed I put the wrong name in.

Sorry about that. And yes, I am romantic and eloquent when I'm not putting my foot in my mouth.

Burningman confuses political criticism with ones ability to care about movement building. your smug rant on my ability to have compassion is completely tangential to my critique of the RCP.

Naturally, burningman doesn't address the core issues i raised critiquing the RCP and my reasoning for not working with them. As i have said repeatedly in this exchange, people should continue to organize against this war, whether or not they use the NION banner, but should be very cautious of the RCP and it's politics.

The RCP:

1. Is undemocratic because it is dishonest about the use and purpose of its front groups. What is their purpose other than to MISLEAD people about their intentions?

2. Supports movements, ideas, and theories that are anti-thetical to democratic participation and have lead to the creation of totalitarian dictatorships. And their current manifesto HAS NOT CHANGED in this regard.
READ IT!

3. Changes politics to suit their own political goals. Their recent rewriting of their politics with respect to homosexuality happened less than 2 years ago, but stood as policy since, at least, 1982.

4. Have a internal policy of recruitment into the party machine via front groups. In many cases, they haven't told NION volunteers, who have the best of intentions when signing up to help, that NION is an RCP creation. In fact, they conduct recruitment in way that is not too dissimilar to christian fundamentalists. Beware the RCP cult if you work with NION.

reposter

reposter – What is your name? Who are you to try and sabatoge new coalitions being built? Why does the presence of a communist group frighten you so when we've just seen what that coalition does? We don't have to take your word for it.

This is exactly the kind of "distancing" crap that's kept us from getting anywhere for far too long. NION is a front group exactly as much as this website. That is to say that just because people with one belief start something, it doesn't mean they are pulling all the strings.

I would urge anyone to TOTALLY disregard any sectarian posts that don't contain a name you know and trust. Period. No, even then I would verify rumors and speak personally with the people under attack. Always. Indymedia doesn't exist to be a slander page and shame on those who would use it for that.

"As i have said repeatedly in this exchange, people should continue to organize against this war, whether or not they use the NION banner, but should be very cautious of the RCP and it's politics."

I agree, people should continue to organize against this war, whether or not they use the NION banner, but should also be very cautious of so-called anti-authoritarian individuals who place political ideology and historical blunders before present and future human life.

A young boy in South Central L.A. or a young woman in Baghdad TODAY doesn't have the privilege of being concerned with Marx or Adam Smith ideologies.

"In fact, they conduct recruitment in way that is not too dissimilar to christian fundamentalists. Beware the RCP cult if you work with NION."

Again, your "Red Scare" is not too dissimilar to christian fundamentalists in the Cold and Vietnam eras and you are in fact ensuring its legacy. You sound like Bush junior fumbling with words in his campaign comments on Cuba several years ago. I don't think I need to remind you how many Vietnamese and Americans died at the hands of this kind of false public relations turned policy.

I think reposter needs to re-examine his or her true intentions of concern for human life.

see the thing is, in due time a few of the people they recruited will leave and eventually wake up. They will be stuck w/ the same old white people that will not be around very soon.
WE the young generation growing up within the activist culture see the bull shit lies and oppression that the ISO, ANSWER, Workers WORLD, RCP, PLP, and the rest of the INSANE CULTS that devestate and hold back our movement do.
NION on Oct 6 was good, but you had all those people, and they didn't do anything. NOTHING! they marched around with signs.
WE ARE SICK OF MARCHING!!
we are sick of coming to your protests and having you take credit for the event.
You want us to be awake, and our eyes opned.
Well guess what? they are, and we see through your crap just like we see through the crap of our other leaders

in love and Anarchy
always

First, I have already explained above why i prefer anonymity, for the same reason I don't trust police, I am not interested in becoming a target of sectarian groups. It is the same reason articulated in indymedia's open publishing philosophy:

http://www.cat.org.au/maffew/cat/openpub.html

Secondly, it is clear that both burningman and anti-war are members of one of the following groups:

ISO, ANSWER, Workers WORLD, RCP, PLP

They are the only ones who constantly refer to "red baiting" and "red scare" when they are critiqued for their outdated philosophies. And yes, I am scared of the reds (Mao, Shining Path, Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, etc, etc, etc.)

Anti-war says, "A young boy in South Central L.A. or a young woman in Baghdad TODAY doesn't have the privilege of being concerned with Marx or Adam Smith ideologies." Well, guess what, the leaders of the RCP do have the time, and they understand what they are organizing toward.

And anti-war also says, "I think reposter needs to re-examine his or her true intentions of concern for human life." Are you serious? Are you really suggesting that by critiquing the RCP et al that i am now anti-human? Orwell would have been impressed!

Finally, neither of you bothers to address the points i made above (listed 1-4), and elsewhere on this page. You continue to attack my identity, my humanity, and urge people not to listen to me. That is classic sectarianism. QED.

reposter

First, I have already explained above why i prefer anonymity, for the same reason I don't trust police, I am not interested in becoming a target of sectarian groups. It is the same reason articulated in indymedia's open publishing philosophy:

http://www.cat.org.au/maffew/cat/openpub.html

Secondly, it is clear that both burningman and anti-war are members of one of the following groups:

ISO, ANSWER, Workers WORLD, RCP, PLP

They are the only ones who constantly refer to "red baiting" and "red scare" when they are critiqued for their outdated philosophies. And yes, I am scared of the reds (Mao, Shining Path, Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, etc, etc, etc.)

Anti-war says, "A young boy in South Central L.A. or a young woman in Baghdad TODAY doesn't have the privilege of being concerned with Marx or Adam Smith ideologies." Well, guess what, the leaders of the RCP do have the time, and they understand what they are organizing toward.

And anti-war also says, "I think reposter needs to re-examine his or her true intentions of concern for human life." Are you serious? Are you really suggesting that by critiquing the RCP et al that i am now anti-human? Orwell would have been impressed!

Finally, neither of you bothers to address the points i made above (listed 1-4), and elsewhere on this page. You continue to attack my identity, my humanity, and urge people not to listen to me. That is classic sectarianism. QED.

reposter

Please, what we are doing here is sharing our anonymous critiques and opinions on our methods. It’s a web page debate. You can call my mom names on here and it would make me laugh rather than cry. Don’t make it more dramatic than it really is.

"it is clear that both burningman and anti-war are members of one of the following groups:
ISO, ANSWER, Workers WORLD, RCP, PLP"

Reposter, you continue to amaze and amuse me. As I stated before, I am not a member of or writing in defense of any groups you mention above. I am defending a potential united coalition of people who are building bridges despite their differences to save people in Iraq. I would not be as naive to try and decipher any persons political belief or stance based on little evidence in a few web posts. The little evidence you have given me suggests that you are a decent person but a little misguided in my opinion. MLK and The Civil Rights Movement is hardly outdated or comparable to Stalin or Mao. I’m talking about movements seeking basic human rights.

You have made it very clear that you seem to be more concerned with critiquing your outdated fears (Mao, Shining Path, Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, etc, etc, etc.) rather than current realities (Bush, Sharon, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Thatcher, Nixon, etc.)

"Well, guess what, the leaders of the RCP do have the time, and they understand what they are organizing toward."

Well, guess what, so do common people who you seem to give less credibility to and more to the RCP. It is your constant reference to the RCP that exposes your political agenda. Again, you underestimate everyday people who seek to find common ground at the bottom and build a coalition for the greater cause of peace and justice at home and abroad.

"Are you serious? Are you really suggesting that by critiquing the RCP et al that i am now anti-human? Orwell would have been impressed!"

I'm very serious. I am only criticizing your intentions. I know that you are concerned. I'm not suggesting anything but this successful diversion of a debate you have created from the U.S. war on Iraq. As I have said before, I do not disagree with your concern or your ability to critique the RCP or any of the groups you have mentioned. However, it is my concern and critique that dividing this anti-war coalition because of political difference is inhumane and dis-serving to the Iraqi victims in the ongoing U.S. war on Iraq. I'm simply being inspired by you to critique your methods on saving people in Iraq. Orwell would hardly be surprised or impressed by anything you or I have said. You still have yet to address this question I asked you in a earlier post:

Why would you want to spend your energy exposing a tiny fraction of difference in the movement and jeopardize dividing a potential united front that is building momentum to expose and stop a global regime THE U.S.A.?

"You continue to attack my identity, my humanity, and urge people not to listen to me."

Neither you nor myself have an identity on these web pages. I urge every person to read and listen to this entire debate. More importantly, I urge people to listen to their heart and decide for themselves.

Lastly, to every person out there who cares:

Beware of any one person, group or ideology that is only in agreement with itself. This is the greatest service you can offer all victims of war.

It is those "anti-authoritarians" (read: "anarchists"), that charge communist frontgroups like ANSWER or Not In Our Name, with having a hidden agenda who are really doing a disservice to the the anti-war movement. These so-called "anti-authoritarians" charge communists or socialists with being control freaks, but what goes unmentioned is that extremist anti-authoritarians are against government, period.

The present critique offered by anti-authoritarians is against the reds... but it is easily wielded against ANYONE who dares offer a "statist" solution to our problems. Demorcrats, Greens, Libertarians and all the rest are viewed by anarchists with as much suspicion and contempt as are the Reds.

If the anarchists don't like ANSWER or NION, fine... let them goe out and do the grassroots work to bring nearly ONE MILLION people to Washington DC and San Francisco. I'd like to see the anarchos try that.... they are big on talk but when it comes to practice they fail and fail miserably. When anarchists are capable of organizing ANYTHING on a mass scale that appeals to and brings in regular working people... then we can talk about styles and methods of leadership. Until then... those who sit on the sideline and whine about the nasty 'ol commies "co-opting" the anti-war movement should be viewed for what they are. Since these "anti-authoritarians" desire so much to throw a monkey wrench into the workings of power (but are too unorganized to do so in the world of real politics).... they resort to all that is left to them, which is to attack and malign those who are actually doing good works.

What's amazing in the above post is that you actually believe that ANSWER and NION is responsible for bringing "nearly ONE MILLION" people to protests. It is exactly what anti-authoritarians are afraid of, of groups who claim responsibility for something that YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR! Yes, those groups aided the organizing, but so did thousands of anti-authoritarians and others unaligned.

Also, the movement to fight corporate globalization, where anarchists *participated* in the organizing but certainly wouldn't claim responsibility, was a major step forward in organizing global resistance of MILLIONS of people.

It is the arrogance of authoritarian reds that we anarchists despise. And yes, we do view the state as our enemy, especially the types of governments that both capitalists and reds have created. Do we really need to go through that treacherous record of brutality?
We are not naive enough to believe that we have the answers for community governance structures, and many of us do not oppose institutional structures, especially if they are participatory, but we absolutely reject the posturing of front groups that claim that they are the true organizers of everything wonderful under the sun.

Lets be clear, ANSWER and NION is NOT the anti war movement nor the main organizers. The anti-war movement is broad and represents thousands of groups. People reading the above post should not be lead to believe that ANSWER and NION is the anti-war movement.

reposter

ps. indymedia is anarchist, is global, and is organized from what i can tell.

In the late 1960s a nation wide mass student movement to resist the Viet Nam war, was created under the name of Students For A Democratic Society (SDS).
It was totally anti authoritarian and published it's principles in what came to be known as the Port Huron Statement. It was as revolutionary as any organization could be and it was huge. Because of it;s open and democratic structure it was easily infiltrated by a bunch of Trotskyests in what came to be known as the Progressive Labor Party. They packed the meetings and exhausted everyone in constant arguments over process and politics, they destroyed the organization. Those activists who felt passionaely about ending the war often burned out and just left the movement. Once they had succeeded in destroying SDS, they moved on to thier real purpose which is always the same for all these commie bastards, "Building the Party." The "PARTY" is the instrument they hope to use to seize control of state power and turn it towards their own "dictatorship of the Proletariat." The party replaces the rulers of the former state and wields absolute power. As we can see from current day China, it really doesn't matter whether what form the economie takes state capitalist, capitalist, socialist, the Party dictates to the rest of society. They use a system of decision making to achieve their objectives called, "democratic centralism" which is about as undemocratic as any system could be. They meet and plan their strategies for party building and once they fhink they have figured out the "correct line" for achieving their party building objectives they proceed to do their best to build their membership accordingly. In the case of SDS it was decided to infiltrate it and take it over and turn it into an organ of the Progressive Labor "PARTY."
Another classic example of this type of organization was the "Revolutionary Union" which would eventually metamorse into the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP).
At the time an organization called the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) had formed this group was in possession of probably the finest film library of the anti war movement both inside and outside the military anywhere in the world. It was stored in the Washington Square Church on 4th Street in Greenwich Village in New York City. The RCP decided to infiltrate the VVAW and take it over. Once in they met some real resistance from the vetrans and realized they could not succeed in their take over they entered the Church at night broke into the VVAWs office and stole the entire library of film. They distributed it among all their members so it was impossible to retrieve and it was never seen again. Imagine if we had that library today how much it could help us teach the young people of today about that wonderful struggle to end that unjust war and then to connect it to the current war and all the others, Panama, Desert Storm, Grenada etc.
This is what these people and organizations are all about they still function in the same way with the same goals. I have seen them destroy organizations, movements and everything they touch. This is one anarchist who went through it all and I will be damned if I will be allow myself to be used and manipulated by these left wing fascists today. My message is simple and clear, NEVER AGAIN!!

thanks for this history. many of us suspected but didn't know this.

we all have to participate to end this war, but we need to be cautious.

peace,
000

"Reposter" took issue with my original post by noting: "What's amazing in the above post is that you actually believe that ANSWER and NION is responsible for bringing "nearly ONE MILLION" people to protests. It is exactly what anti-authoritarians are afraid of, of groups who claim responsibility for something that YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR! Yes, those groups aided the organizing, but so did thousands of anti-authoritarians and others unaligned."

I beg to differ with you Reposter (and your supporters). ANSWER and NION called for particular actions to take place on particular dates. These "frontgroup" organizations that you detest so much then dedicated themselves to building massive support for the actions. They spent countless hours writting press releases, printing and distributing flyers, negotiating permits, putting together a list of speakers, and doing all the hard work that makes a huge demonstration successful. Goodness knows how much money and labor they invested in bringing the October protests off.

What exactly did you and your "anti-authoritarian" buddies do to build momentum for the October demos? Hand out $20 worth of flyers you had printed at Kinkos?

As for the role of "anti-authoritarians" in the anti-Globalist movement... what have been your contributions? Organized yourselves into the so-called "black bloc"? Toss a few bricks through GAP windows. Wow... strike a blow against the Empire, a brick through a Starbucks window!

Infantile "anti-authoritarians" dress up in black, hide their faces, won't allow themselves to be photographed, won't identify themselves, provoke the cops with silly acts of property destruction (bringing the cops down on EVERYONE).... and then claim to have made positive contributions to the anti-Globalist movement!

No... I don't deny the solid work and contributions made by mature, level headed, politically sophisticated Anarchists. But those who run around screaming for the immediate destruction of the state (any state), and who attack others in the movement based solely on political differences.... THOSE people are not to be trusted.

Indymedia is NOT anarchist.... nor is it communist, libertarian, buddhist, or beholden to the democratic party. Indymedia is a platform for free speech and as such is open to all ideas. It is NOT the sole property of those who call themselves "anti-authoritarians." Anarchists DO NOT own the movment... they are only a very tiny part of it.

Let's take Trotsky Icepick apart one step at a time, shall we?


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I beg to differ with you Reposter (and your supporters). ANSWER and NION called for particular actions to take place on particular dates. These "frontgroup" organizations that you detest so much then dedicated themselves to building massive support for the actions. They spent countless hours writting press releases, printing and distributing flyers, negotiating permits, putting together a list of speakers, and doing all the hard work that makes a huge demonstration successful. Goodness knows how much money and labor they invested in bringing the October protests off.
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First, you fail to address the core of my critique, which is the politics of the organizations that ANSWER and NION is a front group for. You will not acknowledge the RCP's support for totalitarian dictatorships. But, you do acknowledge in the above paragraph that ANSWER and NION are indeed frontgroups.

If you want to make this a fight between "anti-authoritarians" and "reds", that is your business. If you want to attack "anti-authoritarians" for weaknesses, i wouldn't be surprised. As Jay articulates above, it is your tactic to try to destroy democratic organizations and manipuate them for party building, which is precisely what my critique is based upon.

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What exactly did you and your "anti-authoritarian" buddies do to build momentum for the October demos? Hand out $20 worth of flyers you had printed at Kinkos?
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And what did your authoritarian buddies do at the demos, sell the Revolutionary Worker, etc and sign up people for the party? See reports from http://nyc.indymedia.org on this.

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As for the role of "anti-authoritarians" in the anti-Globalist movement... what have been your contributions? Organized yourselves into the so-called "black bloc"? Toss a few bricks through GAP windows. Wow... strike a blow against the Empire, a brick through a Starbucks window!
============

Let's see: helped shut down the WTO is seattle, organized global resistance on 3 continents, fought the G8, the WTO,IMF, World Bank in Italy, Canada, Germany, etc. etc. etc. Helped develop Indymedia, an organization whose structure is anarchist (see the Principles of Unity for yourself). Developed strategies for organizing that is horizontal and successful. The black bloc is a *very small* part of the anti-authoritarian movement, one which i don't have much respect for. But more importantly, the level to which you sink by even asking a question about what anti-authoritarians have accomplished vis-a-vis the anti-corporate globalization movement speaks volumes to the politics of the organizations behind ANSWER and NION. Are you seriously competing in the struggle? Do you want to be the heros of fighting the EVIL men? It is exactly the problem; namely, that your organizations seek power and influence to dominate the political landscape. Should we really talk about the accomplishments of the states your organizations support? Shall we review China, the Soviet Union, the Shining Path, etc. etc etc.?

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Infantile "anti-authoritarians" dress up in black, hide their faces, won't allow themselves to be photographed, won't identify themselves, provoke the cops with silly acts of property destruction (bringing the cops down on EVERYONE).... and then claim to have made positive contributions to the anti-Globalist movement!
============

Your so mature mr Icepick. please teach us how to organize and show us the path! As i said above, anti-authoritarians does not equal the black bloc. You know this very well, so your attempt to discredit us only shows the levels that you will go to cut down opposition with straw-man arguments. The black bloc is NOT an organizing strategy, nor was it ever meant to be. I happen to dislike the Black Bloc, but for strategic reasons having to do with organizing.

Quote:
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No... I don't deny the solid work and contributions made by mature, level headed, politically sophisticated Anarchists. But those who run around screaming for the immediate destruction of the state (any state), and who attack others in the movement based solely on political differences.... THOSE people are not to be trusted.
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I am not screaming for immediate destruction of the state as you very well know by my last post. My whole critique here is based in the issues of democratic participation, transparency, and honesty about hidden agendas. That is what you fail to address. Jay above articulates the dangers i have been warning people about.


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Indymedia is NOT anarchist.... nor is it communist, libertarian, buddhist, or beholden to the democratic party. Indymedia is a platform for free speech and as such is open to all ideas. It is NOT the sole property of those who call themselves "anti-authoritarians." Anarchists DO NOT own the movment... they are only a very tiny part of it.
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This comment shows how little you know about indymedia, it's history, and it's origins. I agree that anarchists do not own the movement, nor have i said that anywhere. Indeed, above i even suggest that we would not be so arrogant to make such a claim (unlike ANSWER and NION). Have you read the Indymedia Principles of Unity? It is clearly anarchist influenced. the tech group in indymedia is predominantly anarchist.

I agree that indymedia is a platform for free speech, something that the groups behind ANSWER and NION would never understand. Should we review the history, like Jay did above, of the ISO, ANSWER, Workers WORLD, RCP, PLP, and every other Leninist/Trotskyist/Maoist garbage that passes itself off as a "peoples" struggle. Give me a fucking break. I would rather die than live under your totalitarian/authoritarian nightmare scenario that we have seen plague the 20th century.

reposter

Anarchy is diverse. It ranges from people who call themselves communists, to people who believe in the destruction of civilization. Some anarchists hew to many of the ideas of classical Marxist materialism, Hegelian ideas of History and all, while many more are critical of it, and some reject it entirely. We don't fear doubt.

The one thing that bonds us together is a healthy distrust of leaders. For better or worse, we hate them. And, for good reason -- communist revolutions have led to the arrest and murder of anarchists. Always, we support revolutions, and always, we're screwed by the authoritarians.

We're the ones who dare to be moral. We're the ones who count pacifists among our ranks. We're the utopians. We're the ones who believe life *is* revolution, the revolutionary moment is *now*. That's what anarchy is about.

How anyone can deny the history of front groups or their current manifestation is very puzzling. Anyone who has spent any time studying the communist movement in this country knows that the party faithful started front groups that most folks did not realize were attached to the CP. It was a very underhanded way of organizing because people were involved in "communist" activities even though they did not identify themselves as such. The communists felt they needed to operate in this manner for their own ideological reasons which people on this board may feel is valid but the fact remains that they operated through front groups. Todays communist movement operates in a similar manner. They could never get much support in this country by simply admiting that they are communists so instead they create names like ANSWER, Not In Our Name, etc.

Don't get me wrong, this does not mean I won't go to demo. or rally against the war. Anyone who is against this war has a duty and obigation to protest in a manner they feel is apropriate. That stated, I do find some validity in T-Mex's statement that there is not enough criticism of totalitarian Arab regimes. Beyond a lack of criticism some even go as far as to appear to support these despotic governments. I was at the rally mentioned by Burningman and was surprised to see white people (not Iraqis) running around with Iraqi flags. What the fuck is up with that?

Lastly, I wasn't surprised by B-man's comments regarding reposters critique of authoritarianism. It's pretty typical for these guys to avoid your criticism and accuse you of being "sectarian" or another one I like is "bougeouise."

It's sad that in 2002 people are still making excuses for megalomaniacs like Stalin and Mao. We've seen the kind of world these nuts want and it is not "a society where the common people rule." It's a society where people like them rule.

And lastly, Mr. "they never give their names. Chickenshit motherfuckers." Did your momma name you "the burningman"?