Should We Deny Lebanon the Right to Defend Itself?

Human Rights Watch: Still Missing the Point

By JONATHAN COOK

Nazareth.

In a CounterPunch article criticising Human Rights Watch for singling out Hizbullah rather than Israel for harsher condemnation of its military actions during the Lebanon war, I made sure to quote the organisation fairly and accurately before seeking to refute its arguments. Unfortunately, in her recent response HRW's Middle East policy director, Sarah Leah Whitson, did not return the favour. Possibly realising that her case was weak, she decided to paraphrase my argument instead, misrepresenting it, and only then try to rebut it.

According to Whitson, I claim to know that Hizbullah was trying to hit military rather than civilian targets in Israel during this summer's war because on several occasions its rockets actually did strike military targets. If only, for her sake, that were my argument. As she points out, it is easy to discredit such reasoning: if Hizbullah's rockets were entirely random, they might still have hit an Israeli military site or two by chance.

By misrepresenting my position, Whitson benefits in two ways. First, she is able to suggest that I am an apologist, naïve or mischievious, for Hizbullah's war crimes. I am either a dupe or a dissembler. And second, she enjoys the satisfaction of asserting that she and her organisation are facing down the extremists on both sides: apologists for Hizbullah's war crimes like me on the one hand, and the supporters of pre-emptive wars and torture like Alan Dershowitz on the other. Whitson can then smugly claim to be occupying the sensible centre.

If this is how one of the directors of HRW distorts my arguments and evidence when I carefully set out my case in black and white on the page, one has to wonder how faithfully she and her organisation sift the evidence in the far trickier cases relating to human rights, where things are rarely so black and white.

Which brings me back to my original argument. My point was not, as Whitson asserts, to claim that I knew whether Hizbullah -- or Israel -- was trying to distinguish between military and civilian targets during the war. Quite the reverse, in fact. I made it clear that I could not know what either side intended because I was not sitting alongside the Katyusha rocket teams or Israel's military intelligence officers.

I took issue with HRW precisely because it appears to believe it does know what the two sides intended, even though it was no nearer to the rocket teams or Israeli command bunkers than I was. In fact, not only does it claim to know what Hizbullah and Israel hoped to achieve in the war, HRW also feels able to conclude that Hizbullah's intentions were far more malign than Israel's and therefore produced the greater war crimes.

I am not challenging HRW's research, which appears to show unequivocally that Israel did commit major war crimes; I am contesting its distorted presentation of the facts it unearthed to suit what looks suspiciously like a political agenda. The impression is that HRW is trying to present a more damning picture of Hizbullah's actions than Israel's, despite the evidence, to avoid attracting yet more allegations of anti-Semitism from Israel's influential defenders.

It is for that very reason, of course, that Israel's apologists use the slur: to intimidate organisations like HRW. The inevitable conclusion, at least based on HRW's presentation of its findings about the Lebanon war, is that the Israel lobby is succeeding.

Let's recap on the quote from HRW's senior researcher, Peter Bouckaert, published in the New York Times, that provoked my original article:

"I mean, it's perfectly clear that Hezbollah is directly targeting civilians, and that their aim is to kill Israeli civilians. We don't accuse the Israeli army of deliberately trying to kill civilians. Our accusation, clearly stated in the report, is that the Israeli army is not taking the necessary precautions to distinguish between civilian and military targets. So, there is a difference in intent between the two sides. At the same time, they are both violating the Geneva Convention."

I hope I am not the only person discomforted by the idea that a major human rights organisation thinks it has a legitimate role divining what two sides in a war wanted to achieve rather than what they did in fact achieve, and then seeks to make judgments about war crimes based on its interpretations of such intentions.

Whitson could have distanced herself from Bouckaert's comments, saying they were unjustified, but instead she chose to defend them. Which serves only to increase my suspicions about HRW's agenda.

A responsible human rights organisation ought to be concerned with the events of the Lebanese conflict only, and then try to judge the degree to which the acts committed by both sides fell within the parameters of legitimate warfare, defined as self-defence and the protection of important national interests. War is never a moral event, but it can be conducted within certain constraints that should be the primary concern of human rights monitors.

According to the findings of Human Rights Watch, and reports in the media, we know much about what Israel actually did during the war. Its airforce massively attacked Lebanon's infrastructure, such as roads and power stations, collectively punishing the populaton; its aerial bombardments resulted in the deaths of more than 1,000 Lebanese, the overwhelming majority of them civilians; its air strikes forced hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians to flee their homes as villages were destroyed in the south; convoys of refugees and medical personnel, as well as a United Nations peacekeeping base, were attacked; and finally, in the last few hours of war, as the deadline for a ceasefire rapidly approached, Israel dropped hundreds of thousands of cluster bombs, tiny land mines that are maiming and killing returning refugees and will continue to do so for years to come.

On all these grounds, Israel grossly violated international law -- it committed war crimes. We need know nothing about its intentions to make this judgment. None of these forms of attack was necessary in terms of Israel's right to self-defence or its right to protect its interests: the return of the two soldiers captured by Hizbullah, the pretext for the war, and the reassertion of its sovereignty.

Given that Hizbullah immediately offered a prisoner exchange for the soldiers, in return for Lebanese prisoners of war being held in Israeli jails, it is clear that options other than the ones above were available to Israel.

So what about the facts in relation to Hizbullah? Let's examine its behaviour in the war's two main phases: Hizbullah's provocation of hostilities, and its conduct during the war.

We know that the Shiite group provoked the confrontation with Israel by launching a military operation on July 12 designed to capture Israeli soldiers under cover of a small and harmless volley of mortars and rockets fired at border posts and at the northern community of Shilo in what the Israeli army characterised at the time as "diversionary tactics". In a gunfight, three Israeli troops were killed as the two soldiers were captured.

This was presented as an act of unprovoked aggression by the Western media, which stripped the attack of its context. In truth, the military operation was the latest flare-up in long-running, if small-scale, hostilities between Israel and Hizbullah since Israel ended its two-decade occupation of south Lebanon in 2000. Those tensions have focused on a disputed corridor of land, known as the Shebaa Farms, claimed by Lebanon but held by Israel.

In addition, after withdrawing, Israel maintained and exacerbated the state of hostilities by refusing to release a handful of Lebanese PoWs, by failing to hand over maps of the hundreds of thousands of land mines it laid during the occupation, by repeatedly shooting at, and killing, Lebanese shepherds who strayed into the Shebaa Farms area, and, most significantly, by violating almost daily Lebanese sovereignty by sending warplanes and spy drones as far as Beirut.

Hizbullah's operation was not the first it had launched to capture Israeli soldiers since 2000, and its motives for wanting to do so were well known to Israel. Hizbullah immediately offered to return the soldiers in a prisoner swap.

Thus, although Hizbullah's operation may have been foolhardy, it was most certainly not a war crime under any interpretation of international law.

What about the second phase of the war, when Hizbullah began firing rockets into Israel? Again, these attacks have been stripped of their context, after much misinformation from Israel and its supporters. Hizbullah did not initiate the rocket fire, as is sometimes suggested; it retaliated after Israel began its massive bombardment of Lebanon. There was clear cause and effect, which HRW knows.

In his speeches, Hizbullah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, repeatedly stated that its rocket fire was a response to Israel's far greater attacks and would end when Israel stopped firing missiles and dropping bombs on Lebanon. When Israeli guns briefly fell silent after a US-imposed "period of calm", Hizbullah studiously observed the 48-hour lull whereas Israel quickly broke it. Each expansion of Hizbullah's range of rocket fire was preceded by a warning from Nasrallah of what was in store if Israel continued or intensified its assault.

The rocket fire, therefore, adequately fits any reasonable definition of self-defence, not just of Hizbullah's military assets but of Lebanon as a whole. Given the weakness of the Lebanese army -- the reason, after all, why Israel was able to occupy the country for so long -- Hizbullah can justifiably claim that the duty to defend Lebanon from Israeli attack fell to it by default.

So again, it is difficult to see in what way Hizbullah's conduct during the second phase of the war can be categorised as a war crime -- and even harder to understand how HRW believes it can be described as a greater war crime than Israel's assault.

But HRW believes it has one trump card up its sleeve. It says Hizbullah should never have fired any of its rockets, even in self-defence, because they were too primitive to be accurately aimed at Israeli military targets. Even if Hizbullah intended to hit military sites (and again we cannot be sure), and even if the victims of its attacks were mainly soldiers, HRW regards Hizbullah as having "deliberately targeted" civilians because whatever rockets were sent over the border would in all probability strike civilian areas.

I have previously pointed out the paradox of HRW criticising Hizbullah for killing mostly soldiers, even with its "imprecise" arsenal, more harshly than Israel, which killed mostly civilians with its smart bombs and precision missiles. I will not labour the point again.

Instead I will repeat the questions I asked last time, and which Whitson failed to answer -- presumably because, given HRW's public position, she could find no moral high ground from which to respond.

According to HRW's understanding of international law, what was Hizbullah supposed to do, given its inferior arsenal, when Israel started to wreck Lebanon, destroying its infrastructure, killing its civilian population and driving hundreds of thousands from their homes? If by firing just one of its rudimentary rockets, it was immediately committing a war crime, what military options were available to it as a response to what we have already seen was unwarranted Israeli aggression against the whole of Lebanon?

If for weeks on end Israel used its superior armoury from the air -- relying on an air force against which Hizbullah, lacking anti-aircraft guns, had no defence -- in what ways could Hizbullah engage with such warfare? Under international law, was Hizbullah required to sit tight and let the people of Lebanon die in their hundreds while it waited to see whether Israel would begin a ground invasion? Would a ground invasion have happened had Hizbullah not continued firing its rockets? And was Israel's belated attack by land the first moment Hizbullah was entitled to fight back?

The nearest to an answer Whitson supplied in her response to my original article was the following: "[T]hese constraints [provided by international law] hardly preclude a military strategy for either side should it decide to pursue one. Hezbollah has a long history of cross-border attacks on Israeli military facilities and soldiers, including the one that launched the most recent round of fighting."

What a wonderfully complete circle her argument is. Hizbullah has the right under international law to launch a cross-border attack to capture soldiers, as it did, but then what? What rights under international law does Hizbullah have if Israel chooses to destroy Lebanon in response? Whitson offers no answers.

Let me finally suggest a further two questions for her. Does HRW characterise Hizbullah's return of fire as a war crime even though its undiminished ability to launch rockets was what finally brought Israel's war machine to a standstill and led to a ceasefire? And exactly how much of a war crime would the firing of those rudimentary rockets be if it turned out that not only did they halt the war but they also prevented its expansion to include Syria and Iran?

If on this occasion Whitson can address my point, I would be interested to hear her response.

Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. He is the author of the forthcoming "Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State" published by Pluto Press, and available in the United States from the University of Michigan Press. His website is www.jkcook.net

It's nice to hear a perspective that is not pro state terror...

On Thursday September 21, 2006, I returned to Bint Jbeil, guiding members of the Netherlands delegation from D4. We walked again through the streets and I searched for our friend from the scarves store. It was 3:30 and I remember her saying that she goes home at 3:00. I was sad to miss her. But I was glad to see more signs of life in the town on the main road and in parts of the old town. We walked through the old town and I searched more carefully with my eyes for the remains of family life in the neighborhood. I remembered the destruction in Jenin and I could see that here the destruction was more complete, more thorough. It was as though the neighborhood was put in its entirety into a monstrous machine which ground it to dust. We stepped in many inches of fine beige dust, dust as fine as talcum powder.

In Jenin, I saw puddles of shoes and clothing, or batches of kitchen ware, or large bits of wooden furniture in specific sections of rubble. Here in Bint Jbeil's old town, there were no such things. There were, however, strange bits of colored cottony clumps of fiber. I conjectured that the explosive power of missiles had blown things into clouds of dust and fiber and that the clothing, turned to fiber, had coalesced in the roiling air into these twirls of colored fiber with bits of stubborn woven parts. Only in a few places did I see complete shards of things like a fragment of a decorative lamp or a piece of a fork or a metal button.

In the old town, the structural facts behind the architectural style, that of arches and domes, was revealed. Arches, cross vaults, domes, holding floors above them, revealed the stone filling between the underlying structure and the floor above. I remember my father telling me that in his childhood that the builders, once they completed a dome, would build the side walls up to the next floor then fill the hollows with rubble. The children would then be invited to stomp it so that it would be compacted before the floor of the next level was laid. While this was a lesson in Byzantine building methods, it was also an indication of the precious old homes of the old town now ground to talcum and rubble. Israeli crimes against civilian life extend to crimes against the art and culture of ancient civilizations.

In the old town and up the hill of the old town, I saw and photographed several mosques which were damaged. I saw cars on the main road burnt and bent, melted metal carcasses now kooled, tossed askew against remains of walls.

As we were leaving the old town, we asked directions from some men clearing rubble and collecting scrap metal. They asked us if we wanted to see a spot where 45 people jammed together, taking refuge from the bombing, and we said yes. I tried to photograph the dark spot where they lit a faint little lamp for me. I saw clothing, pillows, toys, blankets, and children's books. The place was low, a cellar open on one side as it was on the incline of a mountain. The ceiling was low and they warned me not to strike my head. They said everyone struck it many times each day. I said that I would not and I walked around with my head down but in the end, as I exited, I did strike my head on the cement.

I asked the men how it was that the town was defended and that the Israelis never got inside. They said that they were not there and had no idea how it was done, and one of them smiled as he said that, leaving us to conjecture what we might.

We finally found a cab out of Bint Jbeil. It was hard as it was evening and no one wanted to go out of town at that late hour. Still yet there were taxis available and the price was tourist-level high. We finally found a reasonable man who for a bit extra took us to Tire for us to see the family who had waved a white flag but was bombarded by a helicopter nevertheless.

Before we could go to the site where the 95-year-old mother had died after her daughter had waved a white flag, we had to get approval from Hizbalah. This was done via human telegraph - a method invisible to us. The dirver stopped and asked someone who ran off to ask someone and we waited till someone ran back with an OK. As we waited In Tire we watched men clearing rubble and trucking it out of town. Jihad al Bina' was at work.

On the way back, our driver offered to take us to see the sites of the old and the new Qana massacres. We took a quick look at the old site and saw the long graves with the many names. At the new site, we were amazed to see that it had been completely floored over and had become a collective grave with special stone burials above it for the bodies of those who were killed. Arround the graves were families with children siting in chairs surrounding the graves receiving messages of condolence from those who came to give them. Some were reading from the Koran over the graves. Along the remaining wall of he building were place large cards holding the name of each one of the victims. Some had photographs of the victims in the beauty of life. Children came and went to some of them and arranged and rearranged the flowers or added some.

We saw the photograph of a fighter who had been martyred elsewhere and we saw the pictures of his children who died at Qana - pronounced Anna in Arabic.



Samia Halaby is a Palestinian artist based in the US.

Defend Lebanon by defeating Hezbollah. If not, Hezbollah will use thug tactics to take the rest of Lebnanon.

TYRE - In southern Lebanon, one major component of the overall rehabilitation and recovery process is to ensure that children overcome the trauma of living through war as well as the distress of returning to heavily damaged villages.

Agencies working to improve the psychological health of children believe there is no better way to begin the journey towards recovery than through that which children enjoy best - playing.

"According to research, 95 percent of children are able to overcome stress and mild trauma by simply playing," said Soha Boustani, Beirut communications officer for the United Nations Children's Fund, Unicef.

"It then becomes possible to identify the other five percent of children with more severe trauma, who can then be counselled by the appropriate specialists," she added.

Southern Lebanon bore the brunt of hostilities in a 34-day war between Israel and Hezbollah. At the end of the conflict on 14 August, the UN estimated that a third of the 1,189 Lebanese casualties and up to 45 percent of the million displaced were children.

Throughout the war, Israel said it was targeting terrorists and blamed Hezbollah for using civilian shields.

In Tyre, 80 km south of Beirut, and Nabatiyeh, 80 km southeast of the capital, Unicef is coordinating and funding two children's recreational areas. Volunteers have sought to bring in as many children as possible from villages in the south to spend at least part of their day in safety, playing sports and games, singing, drawing and dancing.

"The aim in bringing children here is to give them a chance to express themselves, to expend the energy they have stored up, and to feel happy even if it is just for a day," said Khudur Salem, who coaches children sports at the Tyre-based Hoops recreational centre.

In less than three weeks, more than 4,000 children have visited the centre, said Salem. "Many of them have come here from border villages such as Bint Jbeil and Aitaroun, which suffered massive damage during the war and bombing," he said.

Children appear to be making good progress. "During the war, we were very worried," said Hussein Mugniyye, 9, whose family had to flee their home in the outskirts of Tyre for Beirut through most of the war. "Even when we came back, I still felt sad. Now, I feel happy, and I have made many new friends."

An additional problem that children have had to face upon returning south from displacement elsewhere in Lebanon or abroad is the widespread presence of unexploded ordnance (UXOs) in the fields and open spaces they once played in.

"My friends and I used to play in the fields all the time," said Hussein Thine, 10, in Aayta Shaab. "Then, when we returned after the war, I was injured by a cluster bomb and spent five days in hospital. Now, I warn my friends against going out into the fields."

Cluster bomblets are the most common form of unexploded munitions. The UN Mine Action Coordination Centre (MACC) estimates that at least one million cluster bomblets from rocket and artillery strikes continue to pose an extreme risk to civilians - with children being the most vulnerable.

"Children are imprisoned by the continued presence of cluster bombs in their areas," said Dalya Farran, MACC media and post-clearance officer.

The lack of available safe spaces for children to play has rendered the albeit limited pilot projects for children in southern Lebanon all the more valuable.

Intersos, an Italian-based international NGO, is helping with the projects by providing children with participation-based UXO education. "We use cartoons, games, animation activities and painting to educate children thoroughly on the risks posed by the UXOs," said Simona Pari, Intersos programme coordinator in Tyre.

Also involved in the project are local associations, NGOs and scouts organisations. Many of the participants are young people from the south who are keen to help their peers recuperate from the stresses of war.

"As Lebanese youth, we feel an obligation to help these children," said Mohamed Abu Jahjah, a 21-year-old student from Tyre who sings and plays the derbakeh (Lebanese drum) for children at an Intersos-coordinated recreational centre in the outskirts of Tyre.

Cook changes reality he doesn't like

by Becky Johnson • Wednesday, Sep. 27, 2006 at 8:59 AM

Santa Cruz, CA.



JONATHON COOK WRITES: "According to the findings of Human Rights Watch, and reports in the media, we know much about what Israel actually did during the war. Its airforce massively attacked Lebanon's infrastructure, such as roads and power stations, collectively punishing the (sic) populaton"

BECKY: Only 5% of Beirut was bombed. The IDF targeted with surgical precision Hezbollah strongholds. Contrary to Cook's claims, Lebanon's infrastructure was not "massively attacked."

The Lebanese Government says three weeks of Israeli bombardment has inflicted $US2 billion ($2.6 billion) of damage on Lebanon's infrastructure.

from: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200608/s1704482.htm



JONATHON COOK WRITES: "....its aerial bombardments resulted in the deaths of more than 1,000 Lebanese, the overwhelming majority of them civilians;"

BECKY: Can we REALLY know what the Lebanese death toll was OR how many of the dead were Hezbollah fighters?

COOK claims 1,000 dead "the overwhelming majority..civilians." But can we trust this figure?

ROBERT FISK claims 1,300 were killed.

from: Democracy Now! interview with Amy Goodman on Sept 6 2006

found at: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/06/1359240



"Hezbollah have said that they had 56 dead. My friends who are close to Hezbollah and most people in Hezbollah I know say their actual figure is nearer to 253 Hezbollah dead. But since the civilian casualty figure was -- I mean, since the overall casualty figure was approaching 1,300, even if the 253 figure is not exaggerated, and I think this might be true -- I saw a lot of wounded Hezbollah, quite seriously wounded Hezbollah -- even if the 253 figure is true, the number of civilians, total civilian casualties, must be in the region of 1,000." ---Robert Fisk Sept. 6 2006

BECKY: The IDF is claiming that 530 Hezbollah died. The New York Sun reports 500 Hezbollah warriors perished. And the India Daily reports 700 Hezbollah died. ABC is reporting that only 850 died in total, NPR says 1,200 died while the Times Online UK is reporting 1,300 killed were "mostly civilians."

With these conflicting death tolls, its impossible to determine the actual percentage of civilians killed. But COOK has no such qualms. He just declares the numbers he prefers and ignores the controversy.



JONATHON COOK WRITES: "Its air strikes forced hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians to flee their homes as villages were destroyed in the south; convoys of refugees and medical personnel, as well as a United Nations peacekeeping base, were attacked;

BECKY: Unlike Hezbollah, the IDF allowed UNIFIL vehicles and Red Crescent Ambulances to travel safely during the war. The UN observer station was also used as a site to launch rockets at Israel, a fact COOK fails to mention. Israel recently claimed they had bad maps of the observer station and did not intentionally target it.

JONATHON COOK WRITES: ".....and finally, in the last few hours of war, as the deadline for a ceasefire rapidly approached, Israel dropped hundreds of thousands of cluster bombs, tiny land mines that are maiming and killing returning refugees and will continue to do so for years to come."

BECKY: Israel only targeted Hezbollah areas--whether with bunker buster bombs or cluster bombs. In the last few hours of war, Hezbollah lauched more rockets than it had at any time in the war---a fact not worthy of mentioning by Cook.

JONATHON COOK WRITES: "tensions have focused on a disputed corridor of land, known as the Shebaa Farms, claimed by Lebanon but held by Israel."

BECKY: Here Cook is just flat out lying. Shebaa Farms were NEVER claimed by Lebanon. Israel seized this area in 1967 from SYRIA. When Israel totally withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, Sharon went to the UN and got a declaration from them that Israel had COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN from all Lebanese territory. Here Cook is actually giving credence to a falsehood, just to win a point.

Can you really trust a journalist who does this?

Why was my article deleted?

Because the anti-zionist faction can't win a fair fight.

The last thing they want here is a level-playing field.

NOTE TO LA.IMC MONITORS: It is my understanding you are only to delete articles according to the editorial guidelines, and not your own personal prejudice.

We've explained this to you before, crybaby:

1. This is not a chatroom.

2. This is an alternative to the right wing pro-war, pro-israel mainstream media. If we wanted your pro-israel propaganda, we could go to many sites for it. We don't come here for that.

3. Try FreeRepublic--right up your alley.

Becky refuted the main post, line by line. It was topical, relevant and well documented. As opposed to Matt's posts.

We've explained this to you before, crybaby:

1. This is not a chatroom.

2. This is an alternative to the right wing pro-war, pro-israel mainstream media. If we wanted your pro-israel propaganda, we could go to many sites for it. We don't come here for that.

3. Try FreeRepublic--right up your alley.

Note: You will never, no matter how hard you try, turn this into a pro-israel site. There are plenty out there, but we will continue to speak truth to power and be critical of terrorist states like the u.s. and israel. You will not come here with your right wing pro-war pro-israel propaganda and change that.

Dismissed.

Thats our aim- Indymedia should be a forum for free speech and logical discourse, allowing all sides to express their opinions. That is a worthy goal.

Indymedia acts as a balance--in and of itself--to what we see/hear/read from many other media sources...this is advocacy journalism--as it should be--we get right wing advocacy journalism (disguised as 'fair and balanced') all day long.

...and the worthy goal of making Indymedia alternative media, which means media beaming out the truth whatever it might be without trying to suppress any part of it to fit any "alternative" prejudice.

YAWN WRITES: "We've explained this to you before, crybaby:

1. This is not a chatroom.

2. This is an alternative to the right wing pro-war, pro-israel mainstream media. If we wanted your pro-israel propaganda, we could go to many sites for it. We don't come here for that.

3. Try FreeRepublic--right up your alley. "

BECKY: I think I will consult the ACTUAL editorial policy, thank-you.

LA.IMC Editorial Policy: "It was set-up to provide a globally accessible space for anyone to quickly self-publish breaking news, articles, commentary, digital photos and audio."

BECKY: First, it is available to everyone, not just LOCALS!!

Second, "commentary" is encouraged and allowed.

LA IMC Editorial Policy: "this project trust that other participants will use the newswire to publish intelligent and insightful news and commentary. "

BECKY: This seems to INVITE commentary.

LA.IMC: Under the section for articles that may be hidden it says: "Posts that contain generalized and negative assertions about any race, nation, creed, class, ethnic group, sexual orientation, etc."

BECKY: So generalized negative assertions about ISRAEL are cause for deletion? How often has THAT been enforced?

LA.IMC "Posts that treat the newswire as a personal "bulletin board" with non-political content directed at one or another newswire participants."

BECKY: So as long as the comment remains political, and is directed at all the readers, not just a single individual, then it should be allowed?

I note that the guidelines say NOTHING about pro-Israel posts or comments being disallowed. While covering stories that are not well covered in the mainstream press are encouraged, stories that ARE covered in the MSM are not forbidden.

LA.IMC MISSION STATEMENT: "To encourage a world where globalization is not about homogeneity and exploitation, but rather, about diversity and cooperation."

BECKY: Diversity means more than one point of view.

LA.IMC MISSION STATEMENT: "Los Angeles Independent Media Center participants shall not act in a manner that endangers, intimidates, or physically harms any member of the group, including by sexual harassment or acts of violence. Indymedia members shall strive to act in a respectful manner to other members of the collective as well as the public."

BECKY: I'm glad to see all those posts that aren't respectful of other members of the collective or to members of the public are quickly deleted. In fact, please stop calling me "Ms. BJ". I find your use of my name in this manner to be disrespectful.

>This seems to INVITE commentary.

Seems to, but, let's face it. The nonstop flamewars between you, tw, schtarker yid, et. al. aren't really "commentary." They're angry flamewars. They're verbal barbarism. Nobdy but you and the others involved are reading the posts. NOBODY. The main reason why the editorial policy seems so capricious is because the editors are having a hard time managing the torrent of invective, and either totally ignore the reported posts, or they just hide them because it's getting out of control.

Come on kids, "get a room."

keli1041fm@yahoo.com



myself I try to stick to facts and avoid flaming as it serves no purpose

try to do research and have citations to back them up, try to stick to the topic of the thread

Invite people to take deeper discussion to a room, e-mail, or even chat for that matter (we have over a dozen Hamachi tunnels and various servers including IRC)

IMC has chat as well both traditional and the new "gabby" - no one is utilizing these channels either..

There's virtually no discussion or activity on Arkansas IMC either

people seem drawn to an audience, drawn to other people, drawn together for good or bad

the balance of honest learning and open minds verses pasting propaganda and flooding ?



it seems to come down to degrees -

a comment adding to or correcting an article with no further input, at one end of the scale

hundreds of comments of mud slinging back & forth devoid of any facts, at the other end



an IMC with only newsfeeds and no other activity, at one end of the scale

an IMC overwelmed with flamewars which consume most of the staff's time, at the other end



Small towns with few local interested parties

Huge cities which have hundreds even thousands of unique hits per day



so many varibles enter into this - the structure and policies of the IMC in question seems

to have a major bearing on whether there's little or too much activity, good or bad, whether

the IMC runs it'self with display levels and registration voting of articles with anon posts

getting little ratings in the first place

a good solution ? would eliminate sock puppet flooding/mud slinging/flaming and even the

porn spam problem - prevent the problems before they happen ?

"The nonstop flamewars between you, tw, schtarker yid, et. al. aren't really "commentary." They're angry flamewars"

Becky does not participate in angry flame wars. However Toady and others do. Yet they are not deleted, while Becky is.

Yesterday, a point by point refutation of the lead article posted by Becky was deleted, while taunts from other posters remianed. This is not appropriate editing.

Dozens of publications and websites are dedicated to the purpose of portraying Israel as a state that ceaselessly perpetrates war crimes. The tragedy is that in Arab and Muslim countries a massacre is happening that has no connection to Israel, Zionism, or Jews. It is a genocide of mainly Arabs and Muslims, by Arabs and Muslims.

In Algeria between the years 1954-1962, the French (who do not stop preaching to Israel) killed nearly 600,000 Muslims. In addition, the civil war begun in the 1990s has claimed 100,000 victims so far.

In Sudan, a civil war during 1955-1972 claimed 500,000 victims. In recent years fighting there has claimed between 200,000 and 600,000 victims. In Afghanistan, the Soviet invasion, which began in 1979 and ended in 1989, left about a million dead. Since 1977 Somalia has been immersed in an unending civil war with the number of victims estimated at about 550,000.

When Bangladesh aspired to gain independence from Pakistan, Pakistan reacted with a military invasion during which one to two million people were systematically liquidated in 1971. In Indonesia, the biggest Muslim state in the world, as many as 400,000 were killed in 1965-1966 after a communist uprising. After East Timor announced its independence from Indonesia, Indonesia invaded and during 1975-1999 about 100,000 to 200,000 people were killed.

In the Iran-Iraq war of 1980-1988, between 450,000 and 650,000 Iraqis, and between 450,000 and 970,000 Iranians were killed. During Saddam Hussein's reign in Iraq, between 200,000 to 300,000 Kurds were killed in a genocide throughout the 1980s and 1990s. In 1991-1992, between 40,000 and 200,000 were killed in a Shiite uprising in Iraq. An estimated 100,000 people have been killed since the coalition forces took control in Iraq in 2003.

In the Lebanese civil war in 1975-1990, 130,000 were killed. In the civil war in Yemen in 1962-1970, 100,000 to 150,000 were killed. In Chechnya since 1994 there have been 80,000 to 300,000 fatalities. From Jordan to Zanzibar, there have been smaller confrontations that have cost the lives of tens of thousands of Muslims and Arabs, killed by Muslims and Arabs.

What would have happened to the Palestinians if they were under Iraqi occupation? Or Sudanese? Or even French or Soviet? The genocide that Israel is not committing hides the real genocide, the silenced genocide that Arabs and Muslims are committing mainly against themselves.

FROM THE WORLD NET DAILY ARTICLE ABOVE: "But are the virgins scriptural or apocryphal? French documentarian Pierre Rehov, who interviewed the families of suicide bombers and would-be bombers in an attempt to find out why they do it, says it's not a myth or fantasy of heretics.

He says there's no doubt the Quran "promises virgins" to Muslim men who die while fighting infidels in jihad, and it's a key motivating factor behind suicide terrorism.

"It's obviously connected to religion," said Rehov, who features his interviews with Muslims in a recently released film, "Suicide Killers." "They really believe they are going to get the virgins."

He says would-be Muslim suicide bombers he's interviewed have shown him passages in the Quran "in which it's absolutely written that they're going to get the girls in the afterlife."

BECKY: The lead article pitches the case that Hezbollah is "defending" Lebanon from Israel. One of the most controversial forms of that "defense" has been the use of the suicide bomber. Here Palestinian youth are taught that sex outside of marriage is wrong, and that women are unavailable to them. They are told that if they become a suicide bomber, upon their deaths, they will greet and marry 72 virgin women.

Talk about dangling a carrot in front of some very hungry chaps!

While I have no special insight into life after death (although Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's interviews with those who had died and been resusitated are quite interesting!), I have no doubt that upon ANYONE"S demise for whatever reason, there aren't 72 gorgeous, untouched babes waiting for you around the corner.

Those poor slobs.

What is offered to the female suicide bombers?

I doubt most of them would be interested in 72 virgins.

Seems high maintenance to me.. Although I suppose there is something to be said for getting them young and training them.

Damn! There's that misandry again!

Gotta watch that.

Yeah, that's an excellent point, Tia.

Maybe what motivates them is what our side has been trying to point out to you for years: the desperation and fatalism of a people who now have only one thing left to lose -- their self-respect -- and have decided that this thing is dearer than life itself

Maybe all this bullshit about "72 virgins" is just hate-twisted demonizing rhetoric from the most vile heartless haters on the planet: Israeli zionist Jews and their US counterparts

Naw, couldn't be...

I have never even SUBMITTED an article to Frontpagemag.com.

I know Lee Kaplan publishes there, but personally, the site is way too conservative for my tastes.

I am no Bush supporter.

Let me remind you I JOINED LA.IMC in 2000 and I was one of the FOUNDERS of Santa Cruz Indymedia. I am at home here---more than you.

What did you think you would accomplish by ORDERING me to publish elsewhere?

It just shows you are unable to debate me without lapsing into rude name-calling and twisted logic.

Suicide bombers really DO expect to get 72 virgins in paradise upon their deaths. Can there EVER have been a more cynical ploy to get young men to give up their lives, break Muslim laws against suicide, and murder innocents than this cannard?

Those poor deluded young men who are duped by their cynical Palestinian leaders to give up their lives "in battle" just to get laid with honor!

It reminds me of the Christians who made a virtue out of poverty and suffering and told believers "they will get their reward in heaven." Pretty cheap policy to institute.

> I have never even SUBMITTED an article to Frontpagemag.com.

I know Lee Kaplan publishes there, but personally, the site is way too conservative for my tastes.

this is disingenuous - you feed Kaplan and Kaplan feeds Horowitz

Propaganda filters down from Horowitz to Kaplan (DAFKA) and from Kaplan to you

it's a two-way street and mutual back-scratching club, ie;

You're a member of DAFKA, *DAFKA links to Frontpagemag - Frontpagemag links to DAFKA*

You're all three in bed together - Lee is in the middle :)





> Let me remind you I JOINED LA.IMC in 2000 and I was one of the FOUNDERS of Santa Cruz Indymedia. I am at home here---more than you.

What did you think you would accomplish by ORDERING me to publish elsewhere?

It just shows you are unable to debate me without lapsing into rude name-calling and twisted logic.



Let's talk logic.

When you joined IMC and FRSC you were still undercover - a MOLE

now that you've been made, the old standards no longer apply

again while I wouldn't take it upon myself to issue "orders" and attempt to be the axeman, I do provide *datamining* exposure

what other's wish to do with this data is up to them - but it's a grave mistake to assume *the data doesn't exist*



Characterize this data as "rude" or whatever, but this is the data that TW is basing his opinions on





> Suicide bombers really DO expect to get 72 virgins in paradise upon their deaths. Can there EVER have been a more cynical ploy to get young men to give up their lives

1.) we get this crammed down our throats by virtually every news outlet the world over already - we don't want or need to have it plastered here over & over again as well _this has been explained to you many times, both by staff and patrons_

I know I don't - it appears no one else does either (excepting your pro-zionist partners which in my book don't count since they represent ballot-stuffing)

*Your failure to acknowledge this coupled with the continued _willful disregarding and defiance of this_ is *THE* source of the friction you're whining about



2.) plastering these things serves as a distraction to what the majority of IMC patrons desire and certaintly staff

if a voting system was in place like some other IMC's have your propaganda spam would be voted down and this conversation wouldn't even be taking place to begin with

3.) your "right" to be here stops where the IMC staff determines it to - TW is only echoing the sentiment as far as I can tell

What is offered to woman suicide bombers? Clearly cooking and cleaning for 72 young men is no one's idea of paradise. Quite the opposite.

Unfortunately, evidence is pointing to suicide bombing among women as a way to rekindle family honor and integrity.

21-year-old Reem Salah al-Rayashi, a young mother with two children blew herself up at the Erez crossing between the Gaza Strip and Israel, killing four.

It was said she was forced to carry out the suicide attack as punishment for cheating on her husband

Barbara Victor, author of Army of Roses wrote about Wafa Idris, the first Palestinian suicide bomber.

" She was probably in a clinical depression. Her first and only child had been a stillborn and, as a result, she was now sterile. Her husband, who was also her first cousin,had divorced her over this and had already taken a second wife. She was mocked by family and friends and she understood that she had no future in Palestinian society. As a divorced and infertile woman, she was doubly

"tainted." Her bleak prospects--due to Islamic and Palestinian misogyny and not to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict--were used to trap her into redeeming her dishonor by becoming a murdering martyr."

TW- I've heard your agument before and I'd like to offer my opinion that it is extremely racist. To assume that the Palestinians can not control their passions implies that they are different, even inferior to groups. This is a dangerous and bigoted assumption.

There are very few stories of Holocaust survivors returning to Poland or Germany with muderous intent. There are no widespread tales of bombings of Munich streetcars, of massacres on the street by survivors who had lost everything. Why? Why were the survivors able to move on with their lives in spite of the atrocities the had endured? And why can't the Palestinians?

When I step back and look at LAIMC, I realize how desperate the zionazi propagandists are....Like johnk said, no one (except about 6 of us) ever bothers to read these long threads as they don't come here to read the discussions...

HEX WRITES: "you feed Kaplan and Kaplan feeds Horowitz

Propaganda filters down from Horowitz to Kaplan (DAFKA) and from Kaplan to you

it's a two-way street and mutual back-scratching club, ie; "

BECKY: Not exactly. Kaplan doesn't exactly take what I'm offering. I have to sell every posting that goes up on DAFKA that I submit.



Kaplan DOES write for Frontpage which is Horowitz's baby.

I rarely read Horowitz. I doubt he reads me. I do read many of Kaplan's articles, but again, I can only try to be an influence, and don't have final editing on what gets posted.

So there is a connection, but its hardly the heirarchy you have presented. Do you have any conservative friends?

Is it necessary to believe alike on every issue? I don't think so. In fact, I don't think you can find any two people who think exactly alike on every issue.

Since you are so good at analysing writings, just compare articles written by Lee Kaplan, David Horowitz, and myself. I think you will find three distinct voices.



But wallow in any conspiracy theory you like if it makes you feel any better.

> Do you have any conservative friends?

no - I can't stomach the hate they carry and disregard for human life attitudes they adhere to



> Is it necessary to believe alike on every issue? I don't think so. In fact, I don't think you can find any two people who think exactly alike on every issue.

you could apply that euphemistic reasoning to cozy up with a mass murdering war criminal

what am I saying - you already do



> just compare articles written by Lee Kaplan, David Horowitz, and myself. I think you will find three distinct voices.

compared to the similarities however these tiny differences are insignificant



> But wallow in any conspiracy theory you like if it makes you feel any better.

not bedding down with mass murdering war criminals definitely makes me feel better :)

Uh, SJ, you really give me too much credit (i.e porn spam, etc.)

But, like the name Matt Fitt, I really don't care if you choose to credit me with it or not. Much like everyone else around here, no one really gives a flying fuck what you ramble about. You are like a fly in the trash to us.

I am more of the philosophy that each human being has worth. Each human being deserves to be treated with dignity. Conservatives may drive me up the wall with their willingness to sign away constitutional protections on the alter of national security. They have wacky notions on stem cell research and can't say enough bad things about welfare mothers.

And they STILL believe the WMD's are out there somewhere.

But conservatives often have strong family values, and a tradition of donating generously to charities. They are probably more sensitive to generalized "foreign threat" to Americans which has not borne out in reality. But then again, maybe they are more vigilant. I know they claim its been there uber-security measures that have prevented a major attack on American soil since 9-11.

Though they claim credit for this, its more likely due to either a coincidence, or the calm before the storm.

They are far more likely to support the military and the police. But when you think about it, the military and the police are MOSTLY on our side. We get very upset about police brutality or the abuses at Abu Grahib---as we should.

But conservatives remind us, that the police and the military ARE out there protecting us from those who would do us harm. Looking at the uncivilized chaos in Iraq right now, I'm sure none of us wants that to happen here.

Rule of law with enforcers is the proper way to do this.

data mining is creepy

anyone who does it no matter what the purpose whether for the movement, against trolls or for any reason at all is invading a person's privacy

and therefore is a creep - period

creeps should be humiliated and ignored without exception no matter what the circumstance or what they claim they do or stand for

a person who is willing to stoop to data mining can never be trusted and should never be - ever

there's no way we can say for sure what the creep is really up to - he may very well be the rope that hangs us all, and we won't know until it's too late

chat has no purpose on a newsire anyway so we should do whatever we can to show creeps like him the door and never engage or even acknowledge him at all - other than to tell him he's a creep and to go away or drop dead

his station doesn't mean shit and we only have his claim he has one anyway - anyone can set up a website that supposedly shows a station

there's no IMC or collective members in his town and no way of varifying that he even has a station - the bitcasts and pictures he posted as so-called proof don't mean shit either

he doesn't have any DJ's or guests and there's no known group or connection to us or IMC - if it's a one man operation it especially doesn't mean shit - it only has value when a group of people are doing it together and the radio shows he claims he airs don't mean shit either

only live DJ's and guests do

if he's not willing to have a public presence to take listener calls and reports off the streets like we do and shoulder the risk that goes along with doing so, his so-called station doesn't mean shit and he doesn't mean shit

just a creepy troll trying to embed himself in the scene



you fools can waste your time on this loser creep if you want to but I will never give him the time of day other than to tell him he's a creep, to go away and drop dead

I don't know about your conservatives, but I don't see the ones I know fulfilling those stereotypes.

NOTE TO JOHN K:

What do you think about Rev. Wiley Drake of Buena Park, CA?

He's a conservative Baptist minister. He is against women having choice. He once organized a protest against "Gay Day" at Disneyland. Yet he's been sheltering hundreds of homeless people in his church for years now in a city which provides NO SERVICES at all for homeless people.

it all just fell into place

by hex Saturday, Sep. 30, 2006 at 8:55 PM

data mining is creepy

anyone who does it no matter what the purpose whether for the movement, against trolls or for any reason at all is invading a person's privacy

and therefore is a creep - period

creeps should be humiliated and ignored without exception no matter what the circumstance or what they claim they do or stand for ---

[Yeah, I know what you mean.]

like this Huge asshole here.

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/136523_comment.php#136539

let the datamining begin...

by Hex Sunday, Oct. 02, 2005 at 1:30 PM

not to worry - I wasn't going to name names

he'll only just hate me more...

this is just letting interested parties know these thoughts occured to me - that's all

that self-reflection thing again :)

>>There are very few stories of Holocaust survivors returning to Poland or Germany with muderous intent. There are no widespread tales of bombings of Munich streetcars, of massacres on the street by survivors who had lost everything. Why? Why were the survivors able to move on with their lives in spite of the atrocities the had endured? And why can't the Palestinians?

That's because the Holocaust survivors and refugees ended up all over the world, far away from Germany. Also, Germany lost the war, so, who was to be attacked? The state, which was now controlled by the allies who liberated them?

The oppression in Israel, in contrast, is still in progress. The oppressive government is still in power, and is still backed up by the western powers. Suicide bombing has been a tactic used against the west for decades. It turns a regular stick of dynamite into a "smart bomb", at the cost of one oppressed human life, which, according to the oppressor, is worth a small fraction of an oppressor's life.

The defeatist logic is simple: "if I'm going to be killed by the assholes, anyway, I might as well take a few with me." I'm sure we've all felt that way at one time or other... it's called "going postal." In America, people go on handgun rampages, and get road rage, because we can get guns. In the Arab world, because there's a lot of war going on, they can get explosives. They also have a lot of dedicated warriors who push the idea that dying for the cause is noble.

with sugar on top and spiced bubbly love dumplings

you're a sock puppet for christ sake !

if *there's absolutely no connection between you and billder like you claim*

you have no axe to be grinding at all

yet you are

every time billder comes up you start grinding

hmmmmmmmm

well once more - are they hidden or not ?

you can't have it both ways - either you are billder and have an axe to grind - or - you have nothing to do with him and have no axe to grind

I guess the answer is in the grinding :)

"I'm sure we've all felt that way at one time or other... "

no way man - I've *never* felt that way ever

I can even wrap my mind around the idea of killing one person, much less taking several out along with myself

My religion teaches that thoughts like that are _extremely_ bad Karma, (just the thought alone) we do daily practice and meditation just to prevent eventualities like that - it represents the lowest possible spiritual level, while our efforts are directed at the opposite end - 9 levels away from that

I don't know him. I'm talking about people I know, not public figures.

Most conservatives I know don't like homeless people, or at least criticize people who pandhandle. Some of them probably donate to charities via their churches, though. So, after the church takes its cut to maintain their large edifice, some of the surplus goes to the poor.

Buena Park is still a pretty conservative city. That's probably why they don't have homeless services. Their logic is simple: no services = no homeless people going there (and the ones there, will seek help elsewhere).

I don't mean specifically killing, but, the urge to exit a bad situation, and spitefully do some damage as you go.

People will want to screw up something before they quit a job. They will want to screw someone over before burning their bridges.

I think it's an expression of hopelessness.

Becky Johnson:

"There are very few stories of Holocaust survivors returning to Poland or Germany with muderous intent. There are no widespread tales of bombings of Munich streetcars, of massacres on the street by survivors who had lost everything. Why? Why were the survivors able to move on with their lives in spite of the atrocities the had endured? And why can't the Palestinians? "

juhnk:

"That's because the Holocaust survivors and refugees ended up all over the world, far away from Germany. Also, Germany lost the war, so, who was to be attacked? The state, which was now controlled by the allies who liberated them? "

Civilians, most of whom were Hitler's willing executioners as historian Daniel Jonah Goldhagen proved beyond doubt.

juhnk:

"The oppression in Israel, in contrast, is still in progress. The oppressive government is still in power, and is still backed up by the western powers."

This comparison is preposterous.

Firstly, under the so-called oppression prior to Sep 1993 the Palestinians had it better than in any other period of their existence in the disputed territories. Becky Johnson has shown us this fact on this site time and time again for those willing to learn and remember.

Secondly, since the Oh so low Oslo process began in Sep 1993, the Palestinians have brought a form of oppression on themselves by their continuous refusal to let go of using violence to further their political goals in blatant contravention of the Oslo I treaty in which they undertook to do so. Nazi Germany by contrast *sought* to oppress as a first resort, never sought to improve life standards for the peoples under its boot and was adamant on exterminating the Jews. Israel wasn't and isn't seeking the destruction of non-combatant Palestinians, notwithstanding the insistance to the contrary of most rabid anti-Zionists.

juhnk:

"Suicide bombing has been a tactic used against the west for decades. It turns a regular stick of dynamite into a "smart bomb", at the cost of one oppressed human life, which, according to the oppressor, is worth a small fraction of an oppressor's life. "

This doesn't answer why none of the Jewish Holocaust survivors didn't resort to this tactic.

but not everyone however - even lessor degrees like the job situation example

(I realize I'm only using myself as an exmple here)

when I decide to quit a job the decision is made well before I get to the point of wanting to do anything negative - in order to prevent the stress and state of mind that goes along with it

what ends up happening is at the point I'm supposed to get ready for work I simply decide not to

that's the actual moment when I decide it - at the lull in the stress cycle..

to have as clear of mind as possible when the decision is made

when a job starts to become too stressful I weigh the advantages an disadvantages - when the balance tips I simply stop coming in to work - I've effectively quit at that instant..

during the shift if stressful thoughts become bothersome, they are what become weighed as disadvantages typically the next day..

I've never walked off a job - I simply may decide to not come in anymore

this strategy is part of a life-long low stress lifestyle..

nice to be talking with you by the way :)

What did you miss about the message? It was titled Logistics, and I said that there was a logistical difficulty because Jews had left Germany. The political motivations were reduced, because Germany had lost the war.

Had the Jewish victims been made to stay in Germany, and had the war ended in a stalemate with the Nazis removed, but not neutralized (and no Israel created), and a Jewish uprising had been organized, maybe the situation would have been different.

Another thing - I didn't compare Israel to Germany under the Nazis. I think you were doing that.

I simply said that the Palestinians are oppressed.

The source (or end) of the oppression cannot be tied to a single event back in 1993. It's just a general thing that happens when you create a colony.

Yes. It's important to relax as much as possible, especially if you like to work.

I have a Nomad Muvo (a tiny MP3 player the size of a cigarette lighter) and a stealth earpiece that looks like an earplug

I secretly listen to music while working - it's got all my favorite songs in it in 2 hour blocks, with a large collection of different picks and types of songs I keep in a folder in a computer for variety..

johnk:

"What did you miss about the message? It was titled Logistics, and I said that there was a logistical difficulty because Jews had left Germany."

For one thing, Jews were present in Poland (also its western part if memory serves) and Germany already in mid 1945 though not on the scale of hundreds of thousands. This didn't preclude the prospect that most of these Jews would rampage throughout Germany to rape females and butcher civilians to avenge the Holocaust just like a tiny number in fact *did*. You probably aren't aware that the Jewish population in Germany increased somewhat on the heels of Germany's surrender, an example being the location of Bergen Belsen.



Johnk:

"Another thing - I didn't compare Israel to Germany under the Nazis. I think you were doing that. I simply said that the Palestinians are oppressed. "



You did in so many words. You compared the Palestinian hardships caused by Israel to the Nazi treatment of the Jews during the Holocaust. You said:

"The oppression in Israel, in contrast, is still in progress. The oppressive government is still in power, and is still backed up by the western powers."

And btw I forgot to point out another ridiculous statement you made as most Israeli govt.s were in office only 4 years on average.



johnk:

"The source (or end) of the oppression cannot be tied to a single event back in 1993. It's just a general thing that happens when you create a colony."

This statement is a non-sequitor. As I, Becky and Tia to name three have pointed out on this site time and time again, the Jewish residential areas in the *disputed territories* aren't colonies as per legal definition of internation law. There was no Palestinian people, nation or state or even desire for independence in the disputed territories prior to the 1967 Six Day War.

Anyway, The problem with the Palestinians is hardly merely about their failure to abide by the Oslo I Accord signed Sep 1993. This whole al-aqsa intifada was unleased on Israel and had been pre-arranged by the PA as an attempt at ethnic cleansing and genocide, even in Israel proper, notwithstanding persistent revisionist anti-Zionist rewritting of the history.

-For one thing, Jews were present in Poland (also its western part if memory serves) and Germany already in mid 1945 though not on the scale of hundreds of thousands. This didn't preclude the prospect that most of these Jews would rampage throughout Germany to rape females and butcher civilians to avenge the Holocaust just like a tiny number in fact *did*. You probably aren't aware that the Jewish population in Germany increased somewhat on the heels of Germany's surrender, an example being the location of Bergen Belsen. -

What is this?

For one thing, Jews were present [* yeah, there were a few thousand that managed to avoid capture, and that means what? *] in Poland (also its western part if memory serves) and Germany already in mid 1945 though not on the scale of hundreds of thousands.[* do you mean the populations of Jews before the war was less than immediately after due to immigration or do you mean that the remaining survivors of such areas like Bergen Belsen returned ? The former seems unreasonable. Can you support this with stats, since you brought it up? I'm really curious*]

So the Jews, who arguably had just undergone the worst oppression in human history with the genocide of 6 million of their people---DIDN"T resort to suicide bombings in revenge for the oppression they suffered.

Suicide is forbidden under Judaism and under Islam.

Murder is forbidden under Judaism, but is allowed under Islam

if the murder is committed against "infidels".

Mass murder of innocents is a crime against humanity and outlawed by the Geneva Convention.

Most Palestinian suicide bombers are young men who believe they will get 72 virgins in heaven.

Many Palestinian suicide bombers are not poor, but middle class. They have jobs, fiancee's, college degrees.

The attacks are planned in advance by older leaders, who tell them where and when.

see: www.walidshoebat.com for an account by a former PLO terrorist who almost became a suicide bomber.

Desparation? Expression of hopelessness? Hardly.

Its pre-meditated mass murder of innocents for political gain orchestrated by their leaders.

B. Johnson:

"So the Jews, who arguably had just undergone the worst oppression in human history with the genocide of 6 million of their people..."

Tee Wdumbya:

"BTW, the Native Americans got you beat, hun. BY A LOT. So do blacks. This relates back to what I said about zionists being "disgusting self-centered pigs" "

You're pulling a fast one on us. These blacks and Native Americans belonged to many peoples, not one people in each continent, you condescending White- supremacist-gone-White-man's-burden man. So if you can furnish evidence proving any of those peoples suffered a toll exceeding 6 million AND their victimizers had sought to *eradicate them*, let's see it. In the meantime we should never forget the fact that the Nazi genocide was the most industrialized in the history of keeping records ever perpetrated by a state and its various agencies which enjoyed unprecesented *grassroots* support from the people.

Now tell me just for kicks.

Are/ is your 'one people' a race, religion, both or neither as to your connivence?

Or just the ones occupying Palestine?

more demands

what you demand we do, think, see or talk about doesn't mean diddly squat to me

get used to it because the more you play this card the LESS you're going to get anyone to

your manipulations are self-defeating

Manipulations is most of what YOU've been doing since the first day I've seen you in action in this outllet. Every bone in your body seems manipulative. If I wanted to put my time into manipulating you, I'd almost be fulfilling a mitzva.

I'll demand from hostile non-Jews like you (and their Good Jews) this and other things; in some cases I'll be more subtle than others. I won't plead with you to be nice to me or anymore than I did with your pal 'toady'.

You belong to a bunch of racist regressive clowning laughingstocks who can't get out from under the grip of mockery.

If defying most Jews in Israel is so important to you like it evidently is to 'Sheepdog' and 'toady', why doesn't any of you hilarious cowards get off your rears and come over to the disputed territories to "defend" the Palis?

And you'll be laughed at here, as always. Alas, you are a nutcase zionazi spammer who is irrelevant here. We don't take you seriously enough to do anything more than play with you for fun. Your yelping, whining and crying fall on deaf ears, sweetie pie.

You are dismissed.

(G'night hex--watch SJ have a meltdown for the next few hrs.)

deee-luxe!!

Tia: I can distinguish between porn and erotica. But the crap he is posting under my name is intolerable.

Hex: yet another example of the fallacy of assuming everyone else thinks just like you do

Tia: Fine. Let him do it on a porn chat room, not in a nerwswire and not under my name.

TW "All Jews are rich"

Tia: Yet another anti-Semetic canard. Hex's posting of swimming pools rather than soybean fields is yet another variation. Yep. Anti-Semites all think the same, and have been doing so for generations. Thats what reading Einsteins article "Why do they Hate the Jews" has shown me. Thanks for pointing that out, TW.

> Let him do it on a porn chat room, not in a nerwswire and not under my name.

well ragecakes are you an editor ? are we still making demands ?

if there's something I don't like, being only a guest I _BUZZ OFF_



only you're NOT buzzing off - you're *making demands*...



> Hex's posting of swimming pools rather than soybean fields is yet another variation. Yep. Anti-Semites all think the same, and have been doing so for generations.



Well post Palestinian swimming pools :)

and *olive trees* while you're at it



"doing so for generations" - have the illegal Israeli settler's had swimming pools for generations ?



{all the same}

men are all the same

IMC patrons are all the same

progressive anti-zionists are all the same

{all the same}



generalizations - the hallmark of a racist and bigot

well ragecakes are you an editor ? are we still making demands ?

if there's something I don't like, being only a guest I _BUZZ OFF_

Well, unlike you, when I see a wrong, i try to right it. I refuse to ignore injustice, cruelty, and exploitation. There is a clear editorial policy among the IMC's. Posting porn under a false name clearly violates the principles of Unity.



"Los Angeles Independent Media Center participants shall not act in a manner that endangers, intimidates, or physically harms any member of the group, including by sexual harassment or acts of violence. Indymedia members shall strive to act in a respectful manner to other members of the collective as well as the public."

only you're NOT buzzing off - you're *making demands*...

Only that people behave in a respectful, non exploitative manner. Is that too much to ask for from "Progressives"?

Apparently so.

generalizations - the hallmark of a racist and bigot

Yep. In just a few days, you've joined the ranks of the other racists and bigots. I'm not surprised. They do seem to gravitate here.

> Posting porn under a false name = cruelty

this is hyperbolic and grandstanding

when the exact same thing happened to me - actually much worse - (this porn spoof presented me naked with a much smaller wiener making sexual advances to a sicko sex offender convict, not to mention it had a fairly close resemblance to my on-line real picture and would pass as me)

I simply buzzed off

I could have characterized it as "cruel" too if I was out to exploit and capitalize on my victimhood and hanged around DEMANDING action

as it was I only complained one time about it - before leaving





> you've joined the ranks

no ragecakes - I've always been in the "ranks" and have a long history of exposing zionist lies, propaganda, war crimes, oppression and occupation

it's only to your view that I've "joined" - which isn't the point

the point is we keep being treated to one generalization after another

and the list keeps growing



the closest I've come is to phrase it as a *question* or challenge -

"are all you people stamped from the same mould ?"



this isn't a _conclusion_

all men are

all IMC patrons are

all anti-zionists are

conclusions...

so the shoe does indeed fit - but unexpectedly it only fits YOU

"Los Angeles Independent Media Center participants shall not act in a manner that endangers, intimidates, or physically harms any member of the group, including by sexual harassment or acts of violence. Indymedia members shall strive to act in a respectful manner to other members of the collective as well as the public."

Not hyperbole or grandstanding. It is part of the principles of Unity.

You don't believe in the principles of Unity? Go play somewhere else.

...who tried to palm off this "only we've suffered" pile of crap

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/09/179969_comment.php#181069

Not everything is about YOU, hun-neeeeeee

My hang-up is with the REAL HISTORY of any given **CULTURAL** group, as opposed to the "history" obvious political maniacs pull out of their asses in making a bid for Great(est) Victim status

CO-MYOO-NIH-CATE

I don't suppose you would notice the irony of throwing such accusations around when you yourself are lying in bed with the ugliest pack of racist killers on the planet today....??

Naw, 'course not!

P.s. For Tia (not for SJ/CT/autoblocked zionazi)

Not my work on utah imc.

I should probably stop calling myself "Matt", too--as that's not who I am--I was just doing that for convenience, but it's not fair to the real 'Matt Fitt'.

Once agin, just so we're clear, I'm only bothering to defend myself for Tia--due to the disrespectful stuff re: Tia on utah site.

Won't even bother w/ SJ-CT--fuck him--same with SY--both coward-nutcases who've threatened posters and spammed/trolled/made themsleves look stupid nationwide.

btwn work and school--I'll post o few articles then I'm gone--later

1. This particular threateneing quote of yours (among the many) was not even to me.

2. The one you did direct to me was a "meet you after school" childish challenge to meet you in the E. Bay in 20 min.--impossible from S.F. in the eve.

3. I am not a fanatic who gets sooo upset re: what people post on the internet that I feel the need to threaten people, much less "meet them after school" for a fight/discussion/etc.--that's just plain idiocy. I did alot of stupid, violent shit when I was younger--regret it--don't need to prove myself w/ more.

4. It would seem it is you who is so scared, as you come to "our" meetings and don't announce yourself--and you won't say your real name here either. For such a tough guy, it would seem you are just another coward keyboard warrior.

5. Like I said before--you are right about one thing--I would be far more scared of Tia (or any strong women) than I would of an infantile loser such as you.

You are dismissed Yidiot.

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/169468_comment.php#177632

Which was a reply to *this* certifiable zionist lunatic

http://la.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=169468#177625

"The Arab Nazis are born liars. They wouldn't know the truth if it bit them in the ass!

Zionism is rooted in truth. Israel is the homeland of the indigenous Jews. Everyone else is an invader."

This same lunatic said elsewhere: "The world couldn't live without the Jews and Israel but we could live without the Arabs and Muslims who only live to murder and terrorize women and children."

http://la.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=169468#177467

and she kept REPEATING it!!!

http://la.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=169468#177573

Oh, but it was *MY* "racism" that stuck in your mind, not that of the maniac advocating genocide...

See, this is how psycho-selective your attention ALWAYS is.

As for my "weird racist comment," I refer you AGAIN (*sigh*) to this:

My hang-up is with the REAL HISTORY of any given **CULTURAL** group, as opposed to the "history" fabricated by obvious political maniacs making a bid for Great(est) Victim status.

And the REAL HISTORY of European Jews is that most of your ancestry is European. It's literally written all over your faces. Which renders the claim "indigenous to the Middle East" UTTERLY PREPOSTEROUS, and this "Daisy" nutcase was only being artless with an idea the bunch of you try to slide under our radar all the time

1. This particular threateneing quote of yours (among the many) was not even to me.

2. The one you did direct to me was a "meet you after school" childish challenge to meet you in the E. Bay in 20 min.--impossible from S.F. in the eve.

3. I am not a fanatic who gets sooo upset re: what people post on the internet that I feel the need to threaten people, much less "meet them after school" for a fight/discussion/etc.--that's just plain idiocy. I did alot of stupid, violent shit when I was younger--regret it--don't need to prove myself w/ more.

4. It would seem it is you who is so scared, as you come to "our" meetings and don't announce yourself--and you won't say your real name here either. For such a tough guy, it would seem you are just another coward keyboard warrior.

5. Like I said before--you are right about one thing--I would be far more scared of Tia (or any strong women) than I would of an infantile loser such as you.

You are dismissed Yidiot.

"So in your highly developed scientific mind, Jews are not of Middle Eastern origin based on...?"

Look moron, so what if some of your great x80 grandparents came from the Middle East? I'm sure that's the only part of your lineage that interests YOU, but that doesn't make it the only part that matters. When it comes to a distinction as gross as Middle Eastern vs. northern European, the full story of ancestry is told quite well by one's physical appearance. That's right. I've known my share of people from the Baltic region, and this couple in the picture look like they just stepped off a beet boat from Riga. Especially the woman. Go ahead, show me a pedigreed semitic woman who looks like that. I'll eat my shorts

Some European Jews *do* look very semitic, but whether a given Jew is or is not of Middle Eastern ancestry obviously has no bearing on your PREJUDICE that they're "Israel's rightful natives."

It's not "science" or anything remotely rational that has you believing this. It's pure religio-political mania. Yeah

TW WRITES: "Some European Jews *do* look very semitic, but whether a given Jew is or is not of Middle Eastern ancestry obviously has no bearing on your PREJUDICE that they're "Israel's rightful natives."

BECKY: Israel DOES have a sizable percentage of former European Jews or the descendents of former European Jews composing its population. 20% of Israel's population is Arab/Muslim. Of the remaining 80%, some are Christian, Bedoin, and Druze. Of the Jewish percentage of the population (still a sizable majority in Israel) some are Sephardic from N. Africa and others are Chassidic Jews, which came from N. Europe. There are also native or Arab Jews, called Mizrahi. These are the Jews TW wants you to forget about. For these Jews have lived in the area of Ancient Israel for as long as 3,300 years!

For the population of Palestine back in the late 1880's when it was still a backwater region of the crumbling Ottoman Empire, was extremely small. There are 9 million people living there now, and MOST of them, Muslim OR Jew can only trace their ancestry back three generations at most.



TW is right, that a Jewish European who decides to move to Israel and become an Israeli citizen has a better chance of it than an Arab Palestinian who was born on the West Bank.

This is what he tries to claim as "racist" and unfair.

And I suppose if you knew NOTHING about the history of the Jews, you might believe him.

Here is why TW is wrong.

Sometimes, when there is so much oppression and suffering a people suffer, and the news of it gets spread so widely, that it leads to a short time period in which reforms are made, victims are helped, and those inflicting the suffering are punished or prosecuted.

The end of slavery came about in that way in the United States.

The civil rights movement in the USA during the '60's was another such conflagration.

And the vote by the General Assembly of the United Nations in November of 1947 to establish Israel, was another. Creating a Jewish State was considered a way to provide a haven where Jewish people could go and not be punished for their Jewishness.

Following on the heels of the Nazi Holocaust in which 6 million of those executed in Hitler's death camps were Jews, the world sentiment changed, and for a brief period of time, there was sympathy for the Zionists who had long lobbied to re-establish the Jewish homeland in Israel.

Certain Christian predictions forecast that Israel would again be a Jewish State and that the Jewish Temple would be rebuilt. So many Christians supported this as well, for their own purposes.

Now TW would tell you he doesn't give a rat's ass for some Jew in Australia, or Cleveland, or Argentinia who wants to become an Israeli citizen. HE wants that Palestinian guy to be granted citizenship first. And in a way, he's right.

But before you go running to a Burn-Israel-to-the-ground (ANSWER) rally, consider this.

Can a native-born Arab/Muslim/Palestinian currently living on the West Bank become an Israeli citizen?

Yes. All he needs to do is to apply for citizenship, fill out the paperwork, and go thru a security check. If the does this, and his security clearance passes, Bingo!! He's an Israeli citizen!!

There are few other barriers to obtaining citizenship in Israel. For instance, it is much HARDER to become an Australian citizen. You have to have college degrees and a big income as well as pass a security clearance.

What TW can't stand is that for a Jew, anywhere in the world, whether he/she be black, white, red, yellow, brown, or purple can move to Israel and citizenship will be automatic.

But its not up to TW.

The PEOPLE of Israel voted thru democratic means to establish a state which provides a haven for Jews anywhere in the world, where they can fit in and belong.

they voted it in. And they can vote it out if they want to.

Until then, that's the way they want it. And what business is it of TW's anyway? He's not an Israeli citizen. And he's not Jewish. Why does he care so much?

And what business is it of BJ's anyway? sHe's not an Israeli citizen. And she's not Jewish. Why does she care so much?

so, still supporting your sisters in Israel the "ossis of democracy and human rights" surrounded by devil nations I see

BY TOTALLY IGNORING THEM

then when I bring the matter to people's attention *I'm* the misogynist, while you're the sweet innocent never ignored any woman's (even in Israel) plight or pain "feminist"

zionist logic at play

As a traditonal Jew with family that survived Shoah by escaping to Israel, naturally, I have strong feelings, but as to these American "Progresives"? The ones that are neither Jew nor Arab. They don't really seem to know much about the issues o rhistory yet feel the need to get involved and shout down those who do know about the issues and are invovled. Why is that?

As if you didn't know this is a world we all share.

Anyone's pain is everyones pain. Unless you are not of the human family.

Then fuck you.

whether you "personalize" it or not, astro-turffing or "ad lib'ing" it doesn't make it anymore true

no matter how flowery & pretty is sounds to *your* ears

(as it sure doesn't to ours - we either skip over it or simply re-affirm the truth, in neither case do you accomplish what you intend)

you are mis-using the word "propaganda." If you say something really stupid thats not historically accurate and I correct your history and you don't like it, that does not define "propaganda." If someone posts a comment thats not in keeping with the "bash Israel", thats not "propaganda. " Perhaps the word that you should be lookng for is "truth."

'Or is your book Mein Kampf? '

Sorry, don't mean to diss your spiritual leader, Adolph Eichmann.

Funny how the zionist could never have any better help than the Britts and the nazis in establishing their 'state'.

use a search engine [ AlltheWeb is great for a change ]

Zionists +Eichmann

so you'll have no trouble citing your claims from NON-zionist mouthpiece sources

but that's not what's happening, you're just ad-libbing - verbal diarrhea

MSM sources, multible citations greatly prefered - you know the routine...

playing dumb while a respectable occupation for an ordinary person is unbecoming for a "re-educator"

your mouth just running won't do

citations

"Sometimes, when there is so much oppression and suffering ... it leads to a short time period in which reforms are made ... [for example:] The end of slavery came about in that way in the United States."

This is a very sentimental childish version of 'why history happens' that cuts WAY too much slack for the megalomaniacs who play chess with the entire planet, who never do ANYTHING for the kinds of reasons Becky is trying to sell you.

It's like she thinks we're all wide-eyed eight-year-olds sitting in her sunday school Civics class.

"...the 11/1947 UNGA vote to establish Israel ... was considered a way to provide a haven where Jewish people could go..."

Oh, really? Granted this has my heartstrings going 'twang,' but do you have anything more substantial than the resonance of heartstrings with which to document that this is WHY the UN decided as it did?

I would have to see that, because 1) from what I've seen of history, the breed of people who arrogantly carve national boundaries onto world maps NEVER do so from the motives you're assuming; 2) I'm quite sure the Security Council (UK, US, France, Russia, China) was the dominant decision-maker in all this. The UK/US/France axis within the SC represented the same imperialists who belligerently conquered the Ottoman Empire and carved it up into cantons in the first place -- and **NOT** out of the goodness of their hearts. No no, They did it for the same reason they pinned on Hitler -- Global Domination™ -- only they didn't get pushed out of that game as a consequence of WWII. No, they were the Big Players now. And the creation of Israel fits into their centuries-old pattern perfectly. It's such a perfect chess move.

How does the West shoving it's face into the Middle East and imposing a colony of WESTERNERS on its absolute most strategic terrain represent *Justice* for WWII?? Spare me the relentless re-pukings of the 'six million' figure.

If the post WWII imperial powers wanted Jews to have a "national home," why not give them Long Island? Shit, it's not as if they don't *already* have it! This is one of the things that's most unfair: long before WWII, Jews ALREADY had a refuge outside Europe: the United States, the most welcoming prosperous place they have ever seen, bar none! Before zionism mounted into a pan-Jewish political craze, the US was THE destination for disaffected European Jews. Israel? You had to be some sort of religious nutcase to want to go to Israel! THAT'S WHY IT'S A BUNCH OF NUTCASES THERE!! I even know US Jews whose families initially migrated to Israel after WWII, then they realized "hey wait a minute: it's nothing but a buncha FUCKIN NUTCASES here!!" And then they high-tailed it for the US!

So Palestinian Arabs, who have constituted a majority in Palestine for hundreds of years, are to be herded by tanks into hellish refugee camps in neighboring countries, while Jews get to have both Israel AND the United States????

No, that's just greedy. You have to be a BIGOT to not notice how greedy it is. You have to be a BIGOT to willfully ignore the manifold flagrant injustices to the nations and societies of the Middle East, the Palestinians especially. You have to be a BIGOT to fail to understand why those people are united in their bitter opposition to Israel.

YOU are a BIGOT, Becky

"There are also native or Arab Jews, called Mizrahi. These are the Jews TW wants you to forget about."

On the contrary, these are the Jews *BECKY* wants you to forget about, because THEY TOO are discriminated against by the KKKK!!!! I bring up the Mizrahim far more than anyone else here

http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewwork.asp?id=12092

http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-of-iraq.html

"Can a native-born Arab/Muslim/Palestinian currently living on the West Bank become an Israeli citizen? Yes. All he needs to do is to apply for citizenship..."

It takes a BIGOT to fail to understand why a Palestinian would consider this cold-blooded treason against their communities and families

YOU are a BIGOT, Becky

“Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past”, wrote George Orwell in “1984”

there you have it - Becky's "re-education" campaign

lovely quote except the "anti-zionists that post here have no idea what actually went on in the past and so they make it up as they go.

TW: long before WWII, Jews ALREADY had a refuge outside Europe: the United States.....

Tia: Wrong. My grandparents, for example were not allowed in America because the "quota" of Jews had long been filled.

Do you know the story of the St. Louis?

No? Then sit right back, I'll I'll tell the tale, the tale of a fateful trip

Over 900 Jewish refugees sailed on the St. Louis- the plan was to sail to Cuba, and then wait for acceptance into America But they weren't allowed off the ship in Cuba, and were refused entry into America. They were eventually sent back to Europe, where most perished in the camps. America was no haven.

A 1939 poll found that fifty-three percent believed that "Jews are different and should be restricted" and ten percent believed that Jews should be deported.

The US quotas on Jewish immigration were not even lifted during the Holocaust and it is believed 200,000 more Jews could have been saved if bureaucratic obstacles to immigration were lifted.

TW WRITES: "They (Tia's Jewish parents who tried to escape holocaust Germany only to be turned away by the USA).. tried again and made it the next time, didn't they?...The US was STILL the premier destination for disaffected European Jews .... It's enough to make me wish the "quotas" had been much more severe."

BECKY: More severe quotas for Jews? So what other races/religions are you promoting making the quotas "more severe?"

They tried again and made it the next time, didn't they?

Well, no. Not exactly. Not until 1954. Long and not very interesting story

Boy, they must have wanted to come here BAD! Why's that? I mean, it being an anti-semitic shit-hole with "quotas" and all, why didn't they go to Israel?

You mean pre-state Palestine? Some members of the family went to Palestine. On foot. Not my grandparents, though

But it is immensely important for zionists to guilt-trip Americans about the St. Louis at every opportunity, I know.

Very few people know about the St. Louis. Or the quotas. Or much beyond the top ten of American Idol.

The piece that won First Prize puzzled me at first....

The one that won first prize locally was about Darfur.

And, btw, the Jewish population of Nassau and Suffolk county on Long Island is less than 300,000.

Laws restricting Jewish immigration to American began in the 1920's. The Johnson Act "stipulated that the number of immigrants from any one country during a given year could not exceed 3% of the number of immigrants from that country who had been living in the U.S. at the time of the 1910 national census. In other words, if there were 10,000 individuals of Irish origin living in the United States in 1910, the number of immigrants permitted from Ireland in any year would be a maximum of 300. In 1924, the immigration regulations were tightened even further: the percentage was reduced from 3% to 2%, and instead of the 1910 census, the quota numbers would be based on an earlier census, the one taken in 1890."

Wow, you're doing a fuck of a lot of embellishing of what Tia said. First of all, she said 'grandparents' not 'parents.' Second she didn't say anything about them fleeing the Holocaust. Now you seem to want me to believe they were on the St. Louis in person.

You ever thought about writing scripts for soap operas? You've got the Drama Queen kind of brain they want

So everything I pointed out about the Wyman Institute's "art" contest just bounced off your lead Drama Queen brain, didn't it?

Aw gee, a DIFFERENT zionist political football!! How special!

I believe it was aimed at Italians and Jews.

"If the post WWII imperial powers wanted Jews to have a "national home," why not give them Long Island? Shit, it's not as if they don't *already* have it!"

Are you suggesting we ethnically cleanse the Island of non-Jews?

Anyway, I just checked, sweetie. Jews account for 15% of the population of Long Island. (I am referring to the counties of nassau and Suffolk county- while Queens and Brooklyn are geographically on the Island, they are politically part of New York City)

Just a fountain of misinformation, aren't you dear?

Comeon- you're already outed as a racist....who do get rid of first?

jews are

scroll !

> the right of the Jewish people to self determination in their ancient homeland.

so sickenly sweet sounding it makes you want to gag



> Israel is going to need to foresake world opinion and do what is best for Israel.

well this is already happening - the world is in fact foresaking Israel



> I suspect the days of restraint are coming to an end.

well somethings coming to an end - looks more likely every passing day the problem will "vanish"

"Israel is going to need to foresake world opinion and do what is best for Israel"

This is it, this is how crazy you are right here.

This is ALREADY Israel's attitude. THAT'S WHY THERE'S SO MUCH ANGER AGAINST IT ALL OVER THE WORLD.

But to you, gibbering and rocking inside your lunatic cage, Israel needs to be EVEN MORE extreme!

And then you pretend to have ANY moral interests beyond it, when clearly you absolutely don't

That Jabotinsky quote leaps to mind again

"There is no other morality."

That really is your mentality. You're so lost you can't even see it

and your mother mates out of season



sorry there if I have the misfortune of personifying your difficulty in "re-educating" us with the very nasty habit of posting inconvenient facts that expose your lies, blow your PR efforts out of the *water* and keep you from hiding Israeli atrocities while always calling your propaganda sources whenever they start to make headway and unveil your button issues and manipulation games

so while I suck at "debate" it likewise sucks to be you

and "you suck" is NOT an ad hominim...



well what do we keep seeing - she's pounding away with the "re-education" distractions

I post some facts and links (see right above)

the very next thing she does (insted of "debating" the facts & links) is *attack me*

this is becoming a pattern

it's not me that's the monster - it's the facts and links I post that are

but since she can't address thos facts & links without drawing attention to them, she goes after the person posting them

classic passive-agressive personality

it's not that Becky is a zionist - it's that zionism is a ready made mental condition for people like Becky

weasles that thrive on conflict

people who have dealt with her personally have said so themselves...

I don't forget these little details

as to "projections" (funny how anyone who ever thinks anything less that perfection about her always seems to be the one with the problem) considering my own evaluations and observations I'd say these people are correct - 100 %

but that's just me - the "woman hater" so what would I know

Old Feud Over Lebanese River Takes New Turn



QASMIYA, Lebanon — Israeli bombing has knocked out irrigation canals supplying Litani River water to more than 10000 acres of farmland and 23 villages



According to witnesses in the South, Israel also continues to steal Lebanon's water, and is altering the Blue Line



US steps in to defuse Israel-Lebanon water crisis



Is Israel after Lebanon's water?



Israel's airstrikes on canals renew enduring suspicions that it covets water



Israel's involvement in the Lebanese Civil War was for water; Hizb'allah was created from one of Israel's water wars.



The Israel Lebanon War for Water



Roundup: Israel Accused of Stealing Water, Oil Spill Continues

The Lebanese cabinet dencounced what they see as the Israeli Army stealing water from the Wazzani River.

The War over Water. The war between Israel and Lebanon is not about a few kidnapped Israeli soldiers or Hezbollah firing Katyusha rockets into Israel.



Israel uses taplines to steal Lebanese water



Israel/Lebanon: Evidence indicates deliberate destruction of waterworks

Attacks on water pumping stations, water treatment plants and irrigation canals





IDF bombing has targeted irrigation canals, open water channels



The UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) and Lebanese army teams verifying border encroachments have confirmed that Israel was stealing water from Lebanon



The issue of fresh water is especially acute in rapidly developing Israel



ISRAEL WATER CRISIS FACTS & FIGURES. There are two major reasons that Israel’s water shortage has reached such extreme proportions



Israel Faces Water Crisis. By Paul Wood. BBC May 23, 2001.

Israel is being warned that the country's water supplies are dangerously low



Ha'aretz: Report: Water crisis worse than predicted, Seawater has penetrated



Without the Litani, Israel's water crisis will deepen; the very survival of Israel is at stake.



Israeli water crisis on verge of 'catastrophe'.

(talk about sinking to the bottom of the barrel!!)

you find "re-education" creatures squirming around



SO Israel's water situation is going critical

time for a part two of the water story on Israel :)

what are you *trying to* debate - the water issue or my "debate" style - ie: me ?



Water facilities

http://news.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE180072006

Wells, water mains, storage tanks, pumping stations and water treatment works have been destroyed throughout south Lebanon. The water service in the entire country has also been disrupted, as water pipes running beneath roads have been extensively damaged when the roads above have been bombed. The cost of the damage to water facilities was estimated by the Lebanese government to be more than US $70 million, as of 8 August.

The damaged and destroyed water facilities include four wells at Fakr al-Din, as well as the pipes between the Fakr al-Din station and Wadi al-Rashid. Storage tanks in Sidon district, Bint Jbeil and al-Wazani were damaged or destroyed. Two pumping stations were destroyed in the Baalbak-al-Asseera region, as well as the water line between Sebaat and al-Dulbi. In the al-Litani area, the al-Qasimiyya channel, Channel 900 and the line from Joun to al-Awwali were hit.

Such extensive damage to water facilities carries a grave risk of disease. Daniel Toole of the United Nations Children’s Fund, noted that the lack of clean water was becoming life-threatening in south Lebanon during the fighting, where Israel’s bombardment of roads and bridges has also cut off outside water supplies. "Sanitation is a big issue," he said. "Without proper sanitation children will get diarrhoea, they will get sick and they will die."

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) also noted that lack of access to villages in the south meant remaining inhabitants had been largely without clean water. Some who had fled the border village of Rmeish told ICRC delegates that local people were drinking foul water from an irrigation ditch.

As noted above, international humanitarian law seeks to protect objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population. While water pipes might sustain collateral damage, it appears that storage tanks, pumping stations and water treatment plants have been directly targeted by Israeli forces, and it is difficult to understand how they could have been regarded as military objectives. Moreover, even if some objective were military, there is little evidence to suggest that Israel exercised the requisite level of precaution to take constant care to avoid the loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.

there's plenty of data on the table I just posted above

who are we to believe ? all these sources some in Israel too -



or

Becky, the debate queen re-educator

here anon troll - have a cup of facts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Israeli Lebanon Water Wars

In the Middle East, the supply of water is much less than its demand, thereby resulting in conflict over it.

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/95317



Water War Looms as Israel Tells Lebanon to Halt River Works

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0926-08.htm



Israel-Lebanon Conflict Bubbles Below Surface - Security Council



Israel's Appropriation of Arab Water: An Obstacle to Peace



Old Feud Over Lebanese River Takes New Turn



QASMIYA, Lebanon — Israeli bombing has knocked out irrigation canals supplying Litani River water to more than 10000 acres of farmland and 23 villages



According to witnesses in the South, Israel also continues to steal Lebanon's water, and is altering the Blue Line



US steps in to defuse Israel-Lebanon water crisis



Is Israel after Lebanon's water?



Israel's airstrikes on canals renew enduring suspicions that it covets water



Israel's involvement in the Lebanese Civil War was for water; Hizb'allah was created from one of Israel's water wars.



The Israel Lebanon War for Water



Roundup: Israel Accused of Stealing Water, Oil Spill Continues

The Lebanese cabinet dencounced what they see as the Israeli Army stealing water from the Wazzani River.



The Israel Lebanon War is all about Water

The War over Water. The war between Israel and Lebanon is not about a few kidnapped Israeli soldiers or Hezbollah firing Katyusha rockets into Israel.



Israel uses taplines to steal Lebanese water

Israel/Lebanon: Evidence indicates deliberate destruction of waterworks

Attacks on water pumping stations, water treatment plants and irrigation canals



IDF bombing has targeted irrigation canals, open water channels

The UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) and Lebanese army teams verifying border encroachments have confirmed that Israel was stealing water from Lebanon

The issue of fresh water is especially acute in rapidly developing Israel

ISRAEL WATER CRISIS FACTS & FIGURES. There are two major reasons that Israel’s water shortage has reached such extreme proportions

Israel Faces Water Crisis. By Paul Wood. BBC May 23, 2001.

Israel is being warned that the country's water supplies are dangerously low

Ha'aretz: Report: Water crisis worse than predicted, Seawater has penetrated



Without the Litani, Israel's water crisis will deepen; the very survival of Israel is at stake.

Israeli water crisis on verge of 'catastrophe'.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

China just sent troops to Lebanon

China hasen't sent any troops anywhere in ***30 years***

now after all those years the one place they DO send troops to - Lebanon

*right next to Israel* - a mere stone's throw away

Israel's water shortage is now critical - to survive they MUST steal water from Lebanon - they are between a rock & a hard place

But with foreign troops in Lebanon the next incursion Israel *has to make because they have no choice* - saltwater is ruining their water supply as we speak - they will be bombing foreign troops now

of countries who have nukes...

China hasn't sent troops anywhere in 30 years - Syria and Iran have been beneficiaries of Chinese technology *several sources confirm this*

the chess pieces are moving into place for the checkmate

(how's that for a game)

the same old denial game..

some of the "articles" are as old as 5 years but most are *current*

China didn't just send troops to Lebanon 5 years ago, Israel didn't attack Lebanon's waterworks 5 years ago, seawater isn't tainting Israel's largest city 5 years ago

all these events are current

if you can't see how Israel tapping into Laebanon's groundwater, diverting it's riverwater and destroying it's water distribution network (as opposed to "destroying the source") is NOT blantantly stealing Lebanon's water then either you're far too stupid to be discussing (actually just trolling/distracting) this issue or are being intentionally obtuse to try to "talk down" the facts with diversionary hot air

or both :)

These articles are from 2001- a drought year:

Israel Faces Water Crisis. By Paul Wood. BBC May 23, 2001.

Israel is being warned that the country's water supplies are dangerously low

Ha'aretz: Report: Water crisis worse than predicted, Seawater has penetrated

Israeli water crisis on verge of 'catastrophe'.



Your article states:

A key reason for the drastic shortfall is that this past March was the driest month of March in more than 40 years, the report indicated

This article, as far as I can tell, doesn't exist. Cite, please

"Without the Litani, Israel's water crisis will deepen; the very survival of Israel is at stake."

Chinese troops ?

Current Israeli attacks targeting Lebanon waterworks ?

Current stealing/diverting of Lebanese river water ?

or a feel-good fluff piece that totally avoids these CURRENT NEWS ITEMS

seems like we've paddled down this river before - a river called

DAMAGE CONTROL

See, I've already fried this one down to bedrock with a flame-thrower, and here they are throwing it out again.

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/09/178626_comment.php#180484

You have them nailed right on the head, Hex: they're RE-EDUCATORS in the mold of Goebbels, spewing their Big Lies over and over for as long as it takes until your eyes glaze over and you start reciting them yourself. This is what they do with every single one of their "talking points." It doesn't matter how many times they've already watched them get blown up

they also don't pay any damn attention to the facts that are gathered

when they see the word "Israel" and a nic they know (like hex) they scroll to the add comments link without even bothering to read the facts

I've seen several examples of this already - like the fox news link SJ tried to start a wedgie game with - it was obvious he never even noticed that the fox news link is *in the human trafficking article already* - he could have flung that mud a week ago..

he didn't notice it until I posted *only* it because there was nothing else to look at then

their presence here is nothing but a game of damage control and re-education using propaganda - they don't give a rat's ass about any issue beyond whether it impacting Israel's "image"

astro-turf trolls - Becky just happens to be the best of them (but not nearly good enough as we keep seeing example after example of)

post a few facts and you get either a storm of mud-slinging, a furry of damage control or a distraction campaign

these are all the tricks they can pull out of their bag - and it doesn't take much intelligence to do this

Becky thinks she's something just to write anything at all original - thinks that makes her some "great journalist" - just goes to show where her standards are

when the occasion comes when she *doesn't* past propaganda pre-digest that's supposed to be an event to celebrate her greatness

the only things she's actually even fairly good at is manipulating people by sowing discontentment, pressing hot button issues and taking cheap shots and low blows

then screams bloody murder when anyone even hits at doing it to her - playing her "I'm a woman" card - the strongest card she has

just another victim angle to exploit..

All people suffer abuse but the abuse women suffer makes them better than anyone else - even when it's not more or worse - they just complain about it more and louder

this feeling sorry emotion (hot button) is exploited to the hilt, just like the "poor Jew" card is likewise

she even said "Women AND Jews" directly

I'm surprised she didn't link animals too for even more leverage

(actually she did, but so far hasn't really played up that angle yet)

you can be troubled to point out what facts I've posted that aren't invalid - that do report current events and are sourced from news agencies in Israel and MSM

no ?

(this is to prove you're only disputing the old/wrong/bad data as you claim)

go to it - let's see how honest your assertation really is - see whether anything you're claiming has any credibility whatsoever

and tell us in your own words how to tell the story on Israel's $ 1. billion a year sex trade

how you would re-write the "misinforming" version I've posted so that it is accurate yet does mention Israel in the context of being an oasis of democracy and human rights



I await breathlessly for this jewel of journalism

- I'm actually holding my breath - so don't take too long :)

hex, you are, as per usual, typing copy and pasted non sequitors and nonsense.

A) Israel's billion dollar sex trade....yawn. Not even a fraction of the billions generated by virtually every society in the world.

Bottom line. Turns out that Isarel has alot of creeps like EVERY other society who make lots of money of the sex trade. Imagine that for a headline.

B) Israel is still the only historically documented democracy in the shithole that is the middle east. If it ceased to exist, the region would be COMPLETELY governed by barbarian theocracies.

C) Everything else you mention is indecipherable and therefore, impossible to comment on.

There, I've responded. Refuted your implications AND maybe, just maybe, helped you on your journey away from being a hatefilled Jew-hater.

I'm here to help.

I didn't say they were photoshopped, I said they (all four or five of them) were simply selfhating Jews. Much as you are a selfhating American.

Hell every religion or group has its share of malcontents who hate their very identity.

I suspect there are even a handful of muslims who DON'T want to kill and maim all non believers as their religion demands.

My "fake" www.nkusa.org pictures

by Hex



" What if I told you that image was a composite made with Photoshop. "

"Are YOU sure the image YOU posted is a real photograph that captured the actual event?"

"You are stupid, you regurgitate what you are fed."

Off topic. Ad hominems are not rebuttals. They are ways to change the subject.

tell us in your own words how to tell the story on Israel's $ 1. billion a year sex trade

how you would re-write the "misinforming" version I've posted so that it is accurate yet does mention Israel in the context of being an oasis of democracy and human rights



I await breathlessly for this jewel of journalism

- I'm actually holding my breath - so don't take too long :)



PS - I'm still waiting "debate coach"

The topic of this thread isn't the sex slave industry in Israel but rather "should we deny Lebanon the right to defend itself". Really. Scroll up and see for yourself.

so, should we "allow" Lebanon to defend it'self from Israel stealing Lebanon's water - which as I've posted data on (scroll up) is the REAL reason Israel attacked Lebanon

try to pay more attention before ordering people around - you'll then see things aren't always as SIMPLE as they appear

as to how strictly to stick to a topic - anything about Lebanon at all (including trolls trying to distract from it) is appropriate especially when the data clairifies the REAL reason for the conflict in the first place

but then you know this...

looking at what was just trimmed away - a good balance of troll baiting and off topic responses, yet seemingly off topic info which isn't - which actually expands on the topic

:)

if only we had this more often..

which I realize can be a major headache to "babysit" the newswire and so most of the time it can't be done

I do consider this an example of when to draw the line so-to-speak as far as even responding to trolls who made every effort to distract, deflect, dismiss, discredit and demonize - commited to memory

NOW

On the water issue, recent and multible news reports show that Israel is running critically low on potable water, that the existing sources are not only running dry but also becoming contaminated with seawater

While the natural supply varies from year to year, overall the ground water levels are dropping

Israel has a long history of over-use of available water for such excesses like swimming pools and fountains, and is now paying the price of this waste as the supply of water is running out even faster than predicted

The Lebanon "war" was but a pretext for seizing and obtaining as much of Lebanon's water as possible with the IDF still to this day engaged in offensive actions like diverting river water and wells to Israel

The most critical crisis Israel is facing today IS water and unless Israel is able to obtain alternative supplies within a very short time frame of only a matter of a few years, the water shortage will become so extreme that industry and the tourist sector will have to simply shut down.

Because of climatic trends tied to global warming, the situation is only becoming rapidly worse..

It appears Israel will be forced to invade and annex other lands simply because there is no other alternative - desalination requires far too much energy to meet Israel's water needs, and so either natural flowing or ground fresh water is the only option they have.

Since all sources of such water lies in nations that are growing increasingly hostile and dangerous to Israel, the problem is extremely tricky for them.

Several sources have reported that both Russia and China have supplied nuclear missiles to both Iran and Syria (an upgraded version of the sunburn missile) which are deployed in locations in these countries within range of Israel's military and industrial centers

Now with this latest development of for the first time in 30 years, China has deployed troops in to of all places - Lebanon !

This strongly suggests that China is "drawing a line in the sand" as far as Israeli aggression goes, which the sources for the nuclear missiles said would happen

It would not be at all surprising if China has or is in the process of deploying their own nuclear missiles *in* Lebanon

With this development Israel is virtually surrounded by nuclear equipped enemies

For those of us who feel that Israel has been getting away with far too much for far too long, this is excellent news.

In this case no amount of American aid will change the course of the eventual outcome

Israel will be forced to make huge concessions for the first time ever and these will likely completely fracture Israel's political structure, which will leave the far-right-wing party totally out in the cold

It will cause a revolution that has been a dream of all people involved for dozens of years where there is finally a breaking away from the zionist cause with Jews & Arabs finally living peacefully side by side

and it was a thing as simple and basic as water that caused it all to happen :)

Oct 5, 2006

Israel Continues to Steal Water and Soil from Lebanon

Lebanese officials condemn the Israeli new attempts to extend pipes to pull water of Wazzani Spring

“The Lebanese Army has also filed a complaint with UNIFIL about the Israeli military’s extending pipelines toward the Wazzani River in South Lebanon



The Israeli army sabotaged the water pumps on the river last week and installed a pipe to pump hundreds of cubic meters to Israel…. He said the Israeli army has installed two water pumps to transport water from the Wazzani river through two pipes, which run toward villages in Israel….

Ghamlush said the Israelis were pumping every day between 200 and 300 cubic metres of water from the Wazzani to Ghajar and to Israeli villages….

Wazzani Mayor Ahmed al-Mohammed has accused the Israelis of giving weak excuses in order to justify the ‘theft’ of water from the river.



“Israel has always been after the water of the Litani river. This River, whose entire basin is in Lebanon, is crucial for rebuilding and effectively integrating the country. Specifically, the waters of the Litani are essential for agricultural and industrial development of southern Lebanon,” explains Ya Libnan.



Israeli soldiers are building a water duct to carry water from the Wazzani river to Israel. The deployment of Lebanese and UNIFIL forces is being hampered by Israel’s refusal to hand over the maps indicating the land mines are.



Israel also continues to steal Lebanon’s water, and is altering the Blue Line and shoveling earth to transport to the Israeli side of the border,” the Daily Star reported on September 25. In addition, Israel is adjusting the Blue Line in its favor.



September 29, 2006

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2006/07/war_in_the_middle_east.html

Israel Accused of Stealing Water



28 September, 2006

Lebanon accuses Israeli army of stealing Lebanese water

http://yalibnan.com/site/waronlebanonfullcoverage.php





Oct 4, 2006

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1206396.php

stealing water from the Wazzani river,' the official said, adding Lebanon ... Lebanon: Israel still occupies 10 positions in southern Lebanon



Israel’s Master Plan: Stealing Water from Lebanon

Friday, 11 March 2005

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4337341.stm

The river Jordan is in danger of disappearing altogether under pressure from huge water diversion programs, an environmental group has warned.

More than 90% of the water is being diverted by Israel, Jordan and Syria



The river is also heavily polluted and now contains 20% untreated sewage, the organisation says.



The river is already running dry in some areas and Friends of the Earth estimate that it could dry out completely within two years.



The pollution in the Jordan flows into the Dead Sea, which itself is under threat and has shrunk by 30% in the last 50 years.



Palestinians complain that Israel diverts up to 80% of water from shared underground aquifers for its own use - including that of Jewish settlers.





Severe Droughts Becoming Recurrent, More Persistent in Mexico, Israel, Turkey





Indices of hydrological drought in Israel



Farming is already down to a token 2 percent of Israel's gross national product

Israel imports 80 percent of what it eats.





December 22, 2005

Water Sources and Distribution



Water remains a scarce resource in Israel and the Palestinian Territories of the West Bank and Gaza.

80% of Jordan River Valley Basin, including Lake Tiberias (also known as the Sea of Galilee) and its principal arteries, straddles Israeli controlled territory, including the Occupied Syrian Golan Heights, Jordan and the West Bank.



This surface water comprises about 30% of Israel’s total water consumption. Groundwater aquifers underlying the West Bank, Gaza, the Galilee, and the Negev, as well as desalination and wastewater recycling programs supply the rest .

The Mountain Aquifer underlying, for the most part, the West Bank, provides approximately 30% of Israel’s water supply. It supplies Israel’s growing settlements as well as its military infrastructure in the West Bank, and a substantial amount is redirected to the state of Israel proper. In terms of groundwater obtained, Israel “receives 79% of the Mountain Aquifer and the Palestinians 21%.”

The discrepancy in comparative usage and consumption is glaring. Out of a total available groundwater of 1, 209 million cubic meters mcm/year in Israel and the West Bank, 1,046 mcm/year is currently for the benefit of Israel, while only 259 mcm/year is allocated to the Palestinians.



Dead Sea Drying Up, Israeli Study Warns



The river Jordan is in danger of running dry under pressure from huge water diversion



most people simply do not know that the Jordan river is drying up



The Jordan river drying up in summer





A water expert points out that the reason for Israel's drought is a government secret. The 50 million cubic meters of water missing from the Kinneret is the amount transferred to Jordan. This obvious fact is being withheld to justify the peace terms with Jordan. He adds, "Jordan should be the one buying water from Turkey.



On another issue he explains that the IDF and government are terrified about the implications of the dozens of Navy frogmen who got cancer while training in the polluted Kishon River. He observes that the cost of compensation could literally bankrupt the IDF, so Meir Shamgar, Judge Coverup, was called to adjudicate a commission of inquiry which will eventually absolve the IDF of responsibility.

What are the odds that a gentile would even know what this means? I sure didn't.

For the benefit of every other (well actually, every SINGLE) gentile on the planet:

Noahide is a Talmudic doctrine promoted by zionist maniacs of the Hassidic 'Lubavitcher' sect (most notably by Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson) to hand themselves an excuse to proclaim moral, religious, AND LEGAL authority over EVERYBODY else.

http://www.noahide.org/

This shit was included as a rider on a bill floated through Congress in 1991 AND IS NOW CODIFIED INTO U.S. LAW!

http://www.cephas-library.com/nwo/nwo_public_law_102_14.html

As is typical of the Lubavitcher sect, Rabbi Schneerson's ideology was/is incredibly virulent, infamously so, and can only be described as 'Jewish supremacism.' Here are some of his choice mind-vomits:

"The difference between a Jewish and a non-Jewish person stems from the common expression: "Let us differentiate." Thus, we do not have a case of profound change in which a person is merely on a superior level. Rather, we have a case of "let us differentiate"

BETWEEN TOTALLY DIFFERENT SPECIES [!!!!!]

This is what needs to be said about the body: the body of a Jewish person is of a totally different quality from the body of [members] of all nations of the world..."

"The Old Rabbi [a pseudonym for one of the holy Lubovitch rabbis] explained that the passage in Chapter 49 of Hatanya [the basic book of Chabad]: "And you have chosen us" [the Jews] means specifically that the Jewish body was chosen [by God], because a choice is thus made between outwardly similar things. The Jewish body "looks as if it were in substance similar to bodies of non-Jews," but the meaning ... is that the bodies only seem to be similar in material substance, outward look and superficial quality. The difference of the inner quality, however, is so great that the bodies should be considered as

COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPECIES

This is the reason why the Talmud states that there is an halachic difference in attitude about the bodies of non-Jews [as opposed to the bodies of Jews] " "their bodies are in vain." . . . An even greater difference exists in regard to the soul. Two contrary types of soul exist:

A NON-JEWISH SOUL COMES FROM THREE SATANIC SPHERES

while the Jewish soul stems from holiness."

[Now you know what "Chosen People" REALLY means, i.e. exactly what your heart knew all along it meant]

"Thus, the difference between a Jewish and a non-Jewish embryo can be understood. There is also a difference in bodies. The body of a Jewish embryo is on a higher level than is the body of a non-Jew. This is expressed in the phrase "let us differentiate" about the body of a non-Jew, which is a totally different kind. The same difference exists in regard to the soul: the soul of a Jewish embryo is different than the soul of a non-Jewish embryo. We therefore ask: Why should a non-Jew be punished if he kills even a non-Jewish embryo while a Jew should not be punished even if he kills a Jewish embryo? The answer can be understood by [considering] the general difference between Jews and non-Jews: A Jew was not created as a means for some [other] purpose; he himself is the purpose, since

THE SUBSTANCE OF ALL [DIVINE] EMANATIONS WAS CREATED ONLY TO SERVE THE JEWS

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" [Genesis 1:1] means that [the heavens and the earth] were created for the sake of the Jews, who are called the "beginning." This means everything, all developments, all discoveries, the creation, including the "heavens and the earth - are vanity compared to the Jews.

THE IMPORTANT THINGS ARE THE JEWS, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT EXIST FOR ANY [OTHER] AIM; THEY THEMSELVES **ARE** [THE DIVINE] AIM."

All of the above from Schneerson's 1965 book 'Gatherings of Conversations,' as reported by Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky in 'Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel,' Pluto Press, London, 1999; pp. 59 to 61

http://tinyurl.com/m9wyv

Wow! And you thought CHRISTIAN fundamentalist psychos were fuckin scary!

Shahak and Mezvinsky go on to say

"Ariel Sharon was the Rebbe's favorite Israeli senior politician. Sharon in turn praised the Rebbe publicly and delivered a moving speech about him in the Knesset after the Rebbe's death. From the June 1967 war until his death the Lubovitcher Rebbe always supported Israeli wars and opposed any retreat. In 1974 he strongly opposed the Israeli withdrawal from the Suez area, conquered in the October 1973 war; he promised Israel divine favors if it persisted in occupying that land."



This brand of supremacist lunacy is what Becky really represents and advocates. It's always been completely obvious

Who the heck cares about your mystic fetishes?

You go on as if most or any of your audience even gives a fart.

I don't know why this should surprise me, actually, since the Lubavitcher sect in Israel has evolved into the apocalyptic religious arm of Jabotinskyist extremism. What else would 'Stabber believe in?

And if I don't do these things, 'Stabber, what is it that will happen to me? Perhaps when zionism declares a global totalitarian government, I'll be tortured to death in the resulting Inquisition?

Hey 'Stabber: I believe in PLANET EARTH and it's billion-year-old sacred mantle of life as a TOTALLY MANIFEST "God." Nobody can challenge me with the scornful imperative "show me your God!" I can say to them: "every time you take a step and your foot lands HARD against a thing unyielding -- JUST AS YOU KNEW IT WOULD -- you perform once again a sacrament that affirms absolutely the reality of MY God. Argue with THAT!"

It's YOUR "G-d," you weak-minded fucking FOOL, that is a "false idol," i.e. a figment of your imagination.

No, much worse, he is an avatar of the dark tendency of humans to elevate THEMSELVES to the position of God, i.e. to exclusive sacredness, as plainly seen here:

"The important things are the Jews, because they do not exist for any [other] aim; they themselves are [the divine] aim."

This tendency of YOURS, in my theology, is the thing rightly called Satan. It meshes PERFECTLY with the biblical idea of Satan: a malevolent *egotist* who is jealous of God's supreme metaphysical (in fact physical) position and would usurp it for himself. This usurpation is seen in absolutely concrete terms today as the unfolding death of *MY* deity in favor of yours, meaning in favor of an obscene all-destroying ego-hallucination, an INSANITY!!!

The meaning of sacredness is not recorded in books. IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE. The True Scripture is a thing you read with all of your senses all of the time. It's the most obvious thing possible, and the people who've distracted you from this perfect and elegant state of spiritual knowledge -- a thing your prehistoric ancestors knew full well -- THEY are the Satans you need to react against!

'Stabber: "I've already answered this"

I forget. Run it by me again

'Stabber: "fact is your pagan gods are every bit of a figment of imagination"

Ah, so you think the physical world is a hallucination? Yes, that about figures

'Stabber: "If your deity's dying and you're smart enough to evade a certain death, jump ship and join mine."

No thanks. Your "deity" is a dark twisted monster. I explained it to you. Your values and actions in the world are bearing it out. Even this gross unmistakeable display of wealth (samaritan_sukka.jpg) as a "sacrament" shows how deviant your beliefs have become. It seems the bunch of you never really rejected the horrifying demon-Gods(Ba'al, Athtar, etc.) worshipped by Semitic cultures circa the first millenium BCE. You just came up with a masterful disguise for them

"...degenerates like you and 'nessie' who support NAMBLA and other moral and spiritual perversions..."

You seem to have me confused with somebody else

show me this "G-d" of yours, putz!

"Nobody can challenge me with the scornful imperative "show me your God!" I can say to them: "every time you take a step and your foot lands HARD against a thing unyielding -- JUST AS YOU KNEW IT WOULD -- you perform once again a sacrament that affirms absolutely the reality of MY God. Argue with THAT!"

There's my God, 'Stabber

Where's yours?

This is where TW gets his information on Judaism:

The Official Website of Representative David Duke, PhD » The White ...Two contrary types of soul exist, a non-Jewish soul comes from three satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness. ...

www.davidduke.com/?

All Hail The Jewish Master Race!An even greater difference is in regard to the soul...A non-Jewish soul comes from three satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness." ...

www.propagandamatrix.com/271003jewishmasterrace.html

Carter Reveals Begin Viewed Jews As The Master Race All Hail The ...A non-Jewish soul comes from three satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness."

www.rense.com/general45/master.htm -

Hell, TW- if you want information on Judiaism, ask a Jew! Not a white supremacist! Or (novel concept) read a book.



Old Yiddish joke ""Thou has chosen us from among all nations..."- why G-d, what did you have against us?"

Noahide Laws

1. Not to deny G-d

2. Not to blaspheme G-d

3. Not to murder

4. Not to engage in immoral sexual activities (incest, animals)

5. Not to steal

6. Not to eat a limb torn froma living animal

7. To set up a court system to ensure justice.

Religion is a fairy tale for the gullable and the fearful

See, bashing religion doesn't mean that I have to be an "atheist". This is a false assumption from the pseudo-journalist. See I am just not dumb enough to be brainwashed by some dogma bullshit from fear/superstition based religions.

But I'll respect your write to need your opiate. Marx hit that one on the head.

was that a religious fetish in the photo of the corded flagil without any wiffle balls?

You are weird.

Either way, doesn't matter. Religion is the opiate for the masses, and supreme rights to a land based on religion is bigotry.

H would be extremely foolish to disarm. The hostages may be negotiated with a parallel prisoner release of Lebanese youth in israeli torture camps they call prisons.

And the Chinese would just love to find another beach head in the middle east. I hope they are not fools like some belligerent states and pseudo states who go waging clumsy unwinnable wars. Hmmmm, they DID try to invade Vietnam. They lost.

"I hope they are not fools like some belligerent states and pseudo states who go waging clumsy unwinnable wars"

Oh, the Chinese are NONE of that

That's why the US megalo-psycho-we-own-the-world Empire, having tried desperately for 22 years to destroy China via a campaign on the scale of another world war...

having exhausted every single one of its gigantic advantages...

...finally had to admit defeat in 1972 and send Nixon over to lovingly lap a load of spooj straight out of the head of Mao Tse Tung's dick

'member that, homey?

Americans don't get to be cocky about China's strategic prowess. China kicked **YOUR** ass!

You mean *this* debate coach?

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/1698659.php

(snip)

debate coach

(snip)