It's all fine and good that Mr. Chomsky confronts Israel for its phony justification for mass murder in Lebanon [ http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/09/345826.shtml ]-- an obvious attempt by him to regain the trust of the anti-war movement, which is finally embracing the 9/11 Truth movement -- but let us *NEVER FORGET* where he stands on the most important issue of our time: the state-terror apparatus that is plunging the world into a totalitarian fascist nightmare.

When questioned on Dr. Hesham Tillawi's online video program about his stance on the 9/11 issue, Chomsky timidly regurgitates the official line by saying that the version we are force-fed by the mainstream media is "pretty much what happened", with 19 Arab hijackers responsible for the planning and execution of the attacks. He claims that he hasn't seen any "credible evidence" to suggest otherwise.
[ http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5515995256268661504 ]

At this point in the interview, the informed viewer and reader of his work will ask: "Where has Chomsky been for the last five years? Has he not heard of the work of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, particularly the work of engineer Dr. Judy Wood, physicist Dr. Stephen Jones, philosopher Dr. James Fetzer and theologian Dr. David Griffin? Has he not read about Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's appeal to the world for an investigation into 9/11?"

CHOMSKY’S LACK OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT HIS 9/11 POSITION

How is it possible that he hasn’t “seen any credible evidence” when the Scholars” work has been posted all over the internet and has even made the corporate press because of the controversy it is spawning? Is it not arrogance on his part to dismiss these academics as "lacking credibility"? Where is Chomsky's evidence for this dismissal of his colleagues' work?

Instead he cites an imaginary and illusory body of "thousands of highly qualified engineers" with the "appropriate credentials" that can apparently prove how the official collapse model is scientifically sound. Who are these engineers? Why won’t they, along with the NIST engineers, debate the peer-reviewed science put forth by the Scholars? This group of brave scientists and intellectuals not only possess "appropriate credentials" and backgrounds, but, together, have systematically dismantled the FEMA, NIST and 9/11 Commission cover-up reports. Is it not revealing that these government "scientists" collectively refuse to publicly debate Scholars for 9/11 Truth!!!
[ http://www.teamliberty.net/id273.html ]

So where does Chomsky position himself within this debate? Why is he openly accusing the 9/11 truth movement of "wasting an enormous amount of time and energy", that "could be better focused on more important issues"? What issues are more important than the events that have led us into an era of "permanent war"? Why is he ignoring the world public's call for an international and independent public inquiry?

NECESSARY QUESTIONS ON UNNECESSARY ILLUSIONS

In light of all this, we are forced to ask some very unpleasant questions with regards to Chomsky's political and moral agenda, as well as his ideological allegiances. Does he know something about the Israeli connection to terrorism and 9/11 and is he afraid to make it public? (Do recall Sharon's explicit declaration on October 3rd, 2001, that "We, the Jewish people, control America and the Americans know it." [IAP News])

Is Chomsky an ideological supporter of Zionism, as claimed by Dr. Norman G. Finkelstein, author of The Holocaust Industry, in an interview given to Snowshoe Films? [ Watch "Straussians, My Behind" http://www.snowshoefilms.com/palestine.html ] If he is an ideological Zionist, then is he covering up the Israeli power-elite's involvement in international terrorism? Isn't it interesting, if not telling, that he avoids all discussion of the Federal Reserve and its Zionist control when he discusses economic power in America? Is this not lying-by-omission, something that he exposes with regard to the corporate media in his book, "Manufacturing Consent"?

Is his stance with regard to 9/11 and "terrorism" not an indirect means of "manufacturing consent" for the "War on Terror"? If so, Chomsky is complicit in the very power system and war machine that he has always condemned. Is it not significant that he has remained employed, despite his dissident activities, by one of the largest weapons developers in the United States, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), where he began working directly under the U.S. Army during the 1950s. [ http://www.questionsquestions.net/docs0209/0920_response.html ]

This leads us to this crucial question: is Chomsky's 9/11 position a result of his fear of power, do they have 'dirt' on him, or has he always been a high-level agent of state-propaganda working only within the acceptable confines of a specific, yet ambiguous ideological framework?



http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org

Trying to paint Chomsky as a fervent enemy of Zionism maybe we should give thanks for the regurgitation of Zionism, replete with the usual pile of unsubstantiated but highly vitriolic noise from that special kennel of barking Israeliphiles like David Horowitz and Jacob Laksin. Someone toss them some raw meat please just to engage their mouths and shut them up.

And about the spew about Scholars for 9/11 truth...see for yourself.

http://www.st911.org/

I think we should just report any post by BECKY as hate/insult and ignore her as the dupe and agent of Zionism that she has proven herself to be.
This forum should not be a place for her racism or a soapbox for her propaganda.

Jeez, with allies like that, does the 911 truth movement need enemies. That article practically said 911 was a conspiracy by Jew bankers.

What little I've read of the 911 truth stuff is very speculative and not particularly scientific, especially Loose Change. A few too many far-out claims and it all starts looking pretty shaky. The assertions would be more believable if they were backed up by experiments (likewise, the refutations would be more credible with experiments).

Also, they ignore some things. For example, I noticed that in discussing the burning jet fuel theory, they ignored the burning temperature of carpet. (They refute that jet fuel weakened the steel beams. I think they made a good case.) Wet carpet can burn at 1010F, according to an EPA experiment.

http://www.epa.gov/nhsrc/pubs/reportDioxinFuran050905.pdf

The buildings were full of plastics and paper. Carpet is mostly nylon, a plastic, backed with something like jute.

They didn't explore the possiblity of the formation of charcoal within the buildings due to the initial burning. Wood, even paper, forms charcoal if it burns for a while deprived of oxygen. Charcoal burns hot enough to melt steel, and it was the way steel used to be created.

Traditionally, it took days to make charcoal, but nowadays, people make it in small quantities in an hour or so. Also, the process of burning wood creates charcoal within it.

911 truth researchers should be exploring this avenue, and seeing if they can refute a possibility like that. Can a box of paper become charcoal from the fuel of burning carpet and computer cases?

Another thing I didn't see discussed was about the security around the twin towers. A guy who worked there said they had tight air security in the late 70s. Well, today isn't the late 70s, when there was a Cold War going on. Back then, NYC airspace was highly guarded because, well, because it was just how things were done. Maybe by the late 90s, things were different.

I'm not a 911 truth debunker, but holes like that don't help the cause. I didn't even try to find these holes. I read the st911 site for like, 20 minutes, and there they were. I haven't even read the debunker sites, save the refutation by popular mechanics, which was shallow in itself. (They totally ignored the good arguments.)

Chomsky is important because so many listen to him, but he's only saying what a lot of people in the anti-war movement think.

You can even explain his biases pretty easily, and they're not really related to his employmet at MIT. He seems a little different from the 9/11 truth folks in these ways.

He's not that nationalistic. The 911ers are, and tend to have ideas of how this was a big betrayal.

He's interested in how the system operates, and how events fit in. When you think like that, these big events seem smaller.

He tends to hew closely to facts. For sources, at least for his lectures, he tends to stick to the major papers with fact-checkers. He's biased against speculation. Maybe it's the MIT environment that does that.

Being of Jewish heritage, he might be more exposed to news about terrorists. Just being informed of terrorism will tend to make one think it's more feasible.

The general left perspective on 911 is this: it's blowback from years of supporting Osama Bin Laden, various dictators in the Middle East, and so forth. Anarchists in particular have a blase attitude about it. Moreover, the anarchists are always going to try to comprehend the underdog, if not identify with the underdog. I suspect most think that terrorism is inevitable in a situation where there's a great imbalance of military power. (For that matter, I suspect most right-wingers and military people think that.)

Also, look at how quickly policy shifted from an actual search for a terrorist, to a "war on terrorism", and then to a war that isn't really even against terrorism. It's not even a war for oil. It's a war for empire.

These wars aren't a response to 9/11, but the expression of a pent-up desire to expand the empire. Perhaps 911 was Bush's "Reichschtag Fire," as people say. Even if it was, the larger problem, an expanding empire, must still be addressed, because that is killing more people, and will create the conditions that kill, than OBL or whomever did it, ever did.

We already know the neo-cons, the Rebublicans and the Democrats are more than willing to kill innocent people to achieve their ends. Proving that they did 9-11 would prove the obvious - that they are killers of innocent people. But any thinking, rational person already knows that.

As the true internationalist that you are, your "dissertation" here highlights why the "true left" (joke, maybe?) isn't concerned as much with 9-11 truth as they are with ending the expansion of empire since it kills and creates the conditions that kill innocent people - and way more non-Americans than Americans.

The ruling class has been "betraying" us for a long, long time.

The 911 truth movement has self-destructed from a serious forensic viewpoint

My previous input in this thread:
http://la.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=178626#178646

It's kind of insulting, but, there's stuff in there. (I think if you weren't so insulting, it wouldn't get flagged.)

I don't feel quite so vehement about it. There are millions of people out there, and thousands into this 911 conspiracy thing. If they're into it, they should run with it. There's room enough for everyone to do whatever, but, to think it's the mind-bomb that's going to liberate the people is kind of hard to swallow. At best, it's going to be the bait that gets people to really look into how the world works.

At worst, it's going to turn into a lot of very detailed research that makes people afraid, or gives frightened people a reason for their anxiety. Either, or.

A lot of people already suspect the government of dirty tricks around 911. Deductive logic prods us to explore the issue in greater depth. Even with facts, many are so anecdotal as to be refutable or deniable.

Try some inductive logic, go from the specific to the general. People already see the parallels with the Reichschtag Fire. Catalog the similar situations. Pearl Harbor - how much did we know? Did Japan lie to its own people to drive them to war? Did Italy? Did the dominoes tumble in Southeast Asia? What about the history of Great Britain?

"These wars aren't a response to 9/11"
Who really believes this? This is the main stream cheerleader's chant in legitimizing this debacle in the minds of the American population.
We can, of course dissemble the observable evidence and arrive at plausible solutions to provide explanations, and therefore present favorable hypotheses. Do the proposed models explain observed data?
The point I'm making is that trashing any particular model as, excuse the quote, johnk. -

What little I've read of the 911 truth stuff is very speculative and not particularly scientific, especially Loose Change. A few too many far-out claims and it all starts looking pretty shaky. The assertions would be more believable if they were backed up by experiments (likewise, the refutations would be more credible with experiments).

Also, they ignore some things. For example, I noticed that in discussing the burning jet fuel theory, they ignored the burning temperature of carpet. (They refute that jet fuel weakened the steel beams. I think they made a good case.) Wet carpet can burn at 1010F, according to an EPA experiment.

http://www.epa.gov/nhsrc/pubs/reportDioxinFuran050905.pdf

The buildings were full of plastics and paper. Carpet is mostly nylon, a plastic, backed with something like jute.-
--------

johnk, this potential fuel would require a huge amount of airflow in an ideal furnace type of reaction, Nylon initially breaks down to cyanide compounds
which were observed as black smoke and people jumping to their death to escape the poisonous by products of this low temperature reaction.

Anyone can find frivolous irregularities and use them as a strawman when the basis premiss is, through observable evidence that the WTC 1,2 & 7 were brought down with demolition technology. And if brought to the light of public acceptance the resulting catharsis could provide the awakening.
You admitted to not having examined this extremely naked and exposed outrage of murder and treason in detail.

"And if brought to the light of public acceptance the resulting catharsis could provide the awakening. "

What kind of awakening? Will people see that the ruling-class is willing to kill to justify empire expansion? Doesn't everybody already know that?

Why don't we focus on educating people about the true nature of imperialism and empire, while pointing out how many hundreds of thousands die as a result around the world and live in poverty here because of $$ spent and hope that causes an awakening?

Besides, the official media released video of the Pentagon exploding after being hit by something, and even though no jet was seen in the video, they said it showed a jet hitting the Pentagon, and people believed it.

There a'int gonna be no awakening.

I don't know anybody that saw the pentagon 'revealed' video thought it was anything but more smoke blown up our collective ass.
And the awakening is already happening and willtake furious growth if another outrage happens in the form of another attack.

oK said: "johnk, this potential fuel would require a huge amount of airflow in an ideal furnace type of reaction..."

I think Johnk's point is that there are whole alternate universes of variables being left out by the 9-11 "we know ALL the truth" crowd, which has a very layman-like way of reducing a fantastically complex scenario to "1+1=2"

"...the basis premiss is, through observable evidence that the WTC 1,2 & 7 were brought down with demolition technology."

I'm glad you brought up controlled demolition, because that is the exact bug I have up my arse

"[Johnk] admitted to not having examined this extremely naked and exposed outrage of murder and treason in detail."

HE may not have, but *I* have, and what's more I've completed coursework in structural design in one of the country's best civil engineering schools. I excelled at it.

The whole 'controlled demolition' crock of shit begins with the argument that "the fires could not possibly have melted the steel, so they couldn't have caused the collapse."

Um, the fires didn't HAVE TO melt the steel to cause the collapse

Steel can fail by deformation without melting. Grab a table fork with both hands and you can bend it right over. This unrecovering deformation is called 'yielding.' How much stress per square inch of section a steel can absorb before yielding is called its 'yield strength.' Yield strength, NOT melting point, is the key to the collapse of the towers (and to structural design parameters in general). The yield strength of structural steels is extremely high at mundane temperatures, but declines in a roughly linear manner as the steel is heated. By 'roughly linear,' I mean that whatever percentage the steel is heated toward its melting point from room temperature, this is approximately how much its yield strength declines from the room temperature value.

Steel building frames are NOT "fantastically strong." They are surprisingly fragile. This is what engineering is all about: getting the structure EXACTLY as strong as it needs to be, no stronger. Steel sections in most structures are calculated to support foreseeable loads plus a 25% "safety factor." Therefore the steel of a building only has to be weakened by 20% for structural collapse to become imminent. Therefore -- per "roughly linear" -- it only has to be heated 20% of the way between room temperature and melting point for collapse to become imminent. This would happen in the mid-hundreds of degrees centigrade.

This is why conventional steel-frame construction calls for FIRE-CLADDING around all structural members, usually in the form of poured concrete. This IS NOT for strength. It actually decreases the structural efficiency of the steel frame and thus limits the design. What the concrete does is sop up heat so the frame doesn't fail in the event of a bad fire.

All of the above falls into "Structural Engineering 101."

Don't take my word for shit. Every town of any size has a structural engineer for hire. Print out the above and put it in front of the engineer in YOUR hometown and ask him if it's true.

See, you controlled demolition dipshits can't even muster a "Structural Engineering 101" level of understanding, and yet you presume to know "absotively posilutely" that the towers were blown up. I'm sorry, but you know exactly two things: jack and shit. I'm no SE expert, but I know enough to know what I DON'T know, which is about a thousand times more than you do.

Griffin and Fetzer are just professional bullshit artists. This is the straightforward meaning of their credentials. Stephen Jones, on the other hand, SHOULD have a handle on the kind of theory I've ONLY TOUCHED ON, but Jones seems to have some sort of fucking mental disease that makes him want to be a rock star or something. From a technical viewpoint, everything this man says stinks of bullshit to high heaven. He gets it over on you people because you're simply ignorant and you TRUST HIM because he has a gee-whiz Albert Einstein Pee Aitch Dee (**BIG** mistake).

Here are videos of the north and south tower collapses.

http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/south_tower_collapse.mpeg

http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/north_tower_collapse.mpeg

In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?


I repeat: I AM A 9-11 SKEPTIC. I AGREE that George 'Adolph' Bush and his little club of reptiles are the real culprits here. The *circumstantial* case for this is extremely persuasive.

The mistake you have made is in allowing the movement's *POLITICAL* leadership to convince you that "oh Gwod, we have to have a SMOKING GUN!!!" You know, If you REALLY DO have a smoking gun, then fine, but if you're just going to pull a "smoking gun" out of your ass, then FUCK YOU! You're as bad as the people you're opposing.

The really disgusting part is I don't think you could tell the difference if I was holding an M-60 to your heads. You're AMERICANS. You been raised by teevee sets. You don't know what the word "reality" means

The controlled demolition argument is a TROJAN HORSE. It is making you look like a bunch of blithering imbeciles in front of the assembled technical experts of the world, who might otherwise might help you obtain what Jones is only PRETENDING to give you: a definitive smoking gun

You have been HAD

I ain't the only one trying to warn you

http://www.oilempire.us/demolition.html

I've seen this from other posters about their lofty knowledge about structural engineering and it always comes to the point of saying 'look I have my experts who say this' and refers to another elaborate and intricate display of double talk in the guise of 'informed analysis'.

"The whole 'controlled demolition' crock of shit begins with the argument that "the fires could not possibly have melted the steel, so they couldn't have caused the collapse."

Are you going to support the pancake explanation? There was a poster named Sky King who tried this and ended up looking like another
payroll keyboard government jockey over at SF IMC.
Following in his footsteps?

I don't buy the "pancake" explanation, and I'm mystified at the way government "experts" have thrown themselves behind it. I suspect this too was a POLITICAL decision.

If you open the video links I provided, you'll see that what's unambiguously happening is this: the uppermost 25 to 40 floors of both buildings break loose in one piece and become uncoupled multi-million-ton masses plunging into the structure below them. THIS is what truly destroyed the buildings, and it was impossible for them to do otherwise. The proper place of the "pancake" discussion might be in explaining why these upper-story blocks broke loose in the first place, but even here I think it's only one of several possibilities, and that any such mechanism is destined to forever remain hypothetical -- short of physically recreating the incident with lots of instruments all over the place.

By "pancake explanation," I assume you mean "one floor collapsed onto the next, which was then overloaded and collapsed in turn, causing a chain reaction that cascaded down through the building." No, I don't buy it. The videos themselves show very clearly that what really happened was much more cataclysmic. It's as if the biggest building in a mid-size US city were levitated over a given tower and dropped on it. There is no way the towers could survive this. I'll agree that PARTIAL collapses of the floors in the impact zone MAY have contributed to the initiation of this true collapse sequence.

Speaking of questions, oK, I asked you one and you ignored it:

"In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?"

"Speaking of questions, oK, I asked you one and you ignored it:

"In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?" "


You want to know about programed sequencing? Motion sensor feedback in case of lateral anomalies that operate on a sophisticated algorithm to provide uniform subsidence insuring debris deposition into its own foot print?

Why don't you ask Controlled Demolitions Inc. I'm sure they could answer all your questions.

No, everybody does *not* already know that. Just becasue you do, doesn't mean everybody does. You're projecting.

People might be in denial but they're not stupid.

these are interesting discussions.
BYU Prof's WTC Demolition Theories on MSNBC's Tucker Carlson - 9/11 Truth Hits Mainstream
http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/11/1722079.php
Exactly How and When Could the WTC Be Wired With Explosives? Answer...
http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/04/1691636.php

Since you evaded the question again, I'll answer it myself

Q: "In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?"

A: It means that the demolitions teams had to have rigged only a few adjacent floors with charges -- the floors that initiated the collapse -- and that a given plane then had to fly into exactly that level. However improbable this sounds, you have to take this improbability and MULTIPLY IT BY ITSELF, since the stunt was successfully pulled off TWICE, once for each building.

There is of course the competing hypothesis: that the manner in which the structural failures occurred precisely at the levels of impact is elegantly explained by the impacts themselves.

I know which explanation Sir William of Occam would choose: the second

If the whole controlled demolition controversy had been framed this way right from the beginning, you'd probably have chosen the second also. Most anybody would. But instead it was presented through a bunch of semantic bullshit games about "pancaking," etc. Now you're in a position where you have to back up and HONESTLY reconsider your position based on new information, but you're not gonna fuckin do it because you've made this huge ideological/attitude commitment and you'd feel like a jerk-off, plus it would incur too much POLITICAL damage.

Your movement isn't "9-11 TRUTH" any more.

You need to rename it "9-11 POLITICS."

This is where you end up joining the Republisluts and Democrahoors in their orgy of ignominy

Thanks for bringing up the Chris Tucker interview. When I said that everything Jones says stinks of bullshit, this 'molten metal' canard is one of the things I had in mind

The molten steel in the basements is NOT "direct evidence for the use of high-temperature explosives," because it's obviously related to the fantastic quantity of heat energy that built up inside the piles of rubble after collapse, a quantity FAR FAR FAR in excess, calorically, of what can be attributed to explosives sufficient to cause the collapses. Yes, even to thermite.

This heat is a bizarre anomaly that stands off as its own thing. I have my own hypothesis as to why it happened, but that would be a digression

Again, Jones is certainly capable of figuring this out himself, but Jones isn't dealing in TRUTH, he's playing POLITICS. Those are polar opposites

I said talk to Controlled Demolition Inc. And explosive sequencing is a well developed technology which was initiated in the mining industry.
So tell me since you don't have a hypothesis why you have such a vitriolic reaction to one who does.
And such language. I would expect that from our Zionist posters.

About why the towers fell? Yeah I do. I said it right here:

"the manner in which the structural failures occurred precisely at the levels of impact is elegantly explained by the impacts themselves."

Yeah, that's right: the planes did it

You're just so emotionally committed to the dogma that this is impossible, even though you don't actually KNOW this, that you can't even notice that's what I said

Another thing your crowd has missed in its blind haste to trot along after Griffin, Jones, et al, is that the towers DIDN'T HAVE TO COLLAPSE in order for the 9-11 black op to have the desired psychological impact. I remember that morning vividly. Don't you? When the second plane slammed into the second tower, people everywhere in this country were LOSING. THEIR FUCKING. MINDS. That was it, man; the spooks were slapping each other's backs and heading home. They had their "Pearl Harbor" wrapped up and delivered right there. The collapse was an unanticipated psy-war bonus.

Why would they take a huge PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY risk by sending teams of technicians into two of the most intensely secured buildings in the country to place explosives WHEN THEY DIDN'T EVEN NEED TO to satisfy their psy-op objectives??? That would be just stupid!

Why I'm vitriolic: like I told gehrig not long ago, I hate liars. Refusing to THINK honestly about a thing is the sort of lying I hate most, and that's what the controlled demolition crowd is doing. I've spelled out why. They're not really interested in truth as an ideal; it's politics they're chasing now. Those are different animals altogether

Yup. The mindless retort "oh, the Zionists did it" that dominate these threads is as much as an obstacle to critical thinking as anything else.

My list of suspects is as it should be: wide open

Israel and its global spook network had more motive than anybody

Some of their spooks were even apprehended while filming the event and having themselves a little party, they were so deliriously happy

http://www.sundayherald.com/37707

Including Israel and zionists among the suspects isn't "mindless" at all. It's just good criminology, especially since they made up half the Bush administration at the time

If Al Jizzera thought it was a forgery, why would they broadcast it? Are they in on it too?

Bin Laden got rid of his airline stocks weeks before the event.
Could Bin laden have been working along with Bush? Bin Laden's family were the only ones allowed to fly out of America on Sept. 11, according to Michael Moore's movie

The moon-faced, jolly Santa "bin Laden," seen on the left?

Sorry, not buying. You'll just have to keep hitting me with more TV psy-ops. My brain isn't jell-O-ized enough yet

Firstly, there is a marked resemblence, even with the poor photo quality.

Secondly, life on the run, living exposed to the elements will change your skin tone. . Renal failure will do that as well. i'm sure he's not eating as well in Pakistan as he was accustomed to.

Plus, its been 5 years. Look at what the last 5 years have done to you- a bit less on the top, a bit more around the middle. And that knees been acting up again.
Yep. the aging process sucks, doesn't it?

The bone structure in the two faces is wildly different. This doesn't change.

Despite visual evidence.
Despite the eye witnesses of internal explosions.

Despite the background noise.

"Despite visual evidence."

Too vague; I have no idea what you mean

"Despite the eye witnesses of internal explosions."

Did they SEE explosions, or did they hear deafening explosion-like noises?

"Despite the background noise."

Again, this is too vague. You didn't even learn anything from 12 years of English classes, but you want me to believe you're a world-class forensic talent

Pete Nice: "There a'int gonna be no awakening."

I have to agree. If the Civil War couldn't succeed in convincing average Americans that this government is their heartless mortal enemy, then NOTHING can.

Americans, despite all their cocky "Land of the Free™" posturing, pretty much think and do exactly as authority tells them to. Otherwise they'd have to THINK. Fuck that!

Sadaam had body doubles. Osama may have as well.

If ' the planes did it' what accounts for the molten steel?

1) What was most likely burning aluminum was seen falling out of a broken window before the collapse. Stephen Jones and Alex Jones both insist this burning material was thermite (or thermate), but they're both pathological fucking liars. Clue for 9-11 bullshitters: insisting you know something like this for sure when there's no way you can is a kind of lie. No, really!

Aluminum was used extensively in the facade. How much it was used in the interior I don't know. In any case, it is possible that significant amounts of aluminum got churned into the tower rubble, some of it already burning as it was buried. Burning aluminum is fascinating stuff. It attains a temperature of over 3800 degrees C and is well-nigh impossible to extinguish. Throwing water on it naturally produces steam, which to an aluminum fire is just another oxidizer like air.

2) firemen were hosing the rubble down with high-volume hoses night and day. IF there were pre-existing aluminum fires inside the piles, and lots of aluminum churned into the rubble to serve as additional fuel, it's possible that the thousands and thousands of gallons of water expended this way actually served as an ACCELERANT

3) Heat would not escape well from inside a gigantic pile of rubble. The best common sense analogy is to a compost pile, which due to this insulative effect can become amazingly hot. The heat from any heat source inside the tower rubble would not dissipate, but would accumulate almost without limit. This too would encourage rampant aluminum combustion (at over 3800 degrees C... )

All of this adds up to a possible scenario in which hot-spots inside the pile might develop blast-furnace temperatures

This is only a hypothesis. Observe carefully how I don't insist I have the perfect crystal-ball answer. This is called I-N-T-E-L-L-E-C-T-U-A-L H-O-N-E-S-T-Y. Yes, very weird, I know. Some American shrink is certain to add it to the DSM-IV any day now.

As I said before*, the sheer quantity of calories in evidence inside the rubble piles is far in excess of that attributable to explosives sufficient to cause the collapse as observed.

*Why am I having to repeat this? I can think of only two possibilities: 1) stupidity; 2) dishonesty. It's as if nothing I've said to you has even registered

talk about ducking, weaving, ad -hominim sputtering and pure bull shit. What have I missed?
Oh, your lofty self opinion as the paragon of truth and repository of scientific ' world-class forensic talent' and knowledge.
BTW, ( and for the reader unfamiliar with this self professed and attack dog response ) aluminum doesn't fuse yellow hot because, it being a 'ium' metal. at that temperature, will burn in a oxidation reaction; but being the Whizz, you know all about this, don't you? 'the planes did it'
But I am impressed by the tap dance.'
Compost. Ha ha ha ha. That would be the best place for this 'explanation' you offer. Doesn't take too long for YOUR inevitable melt down does it?

There are two ways to slide easily through life- to believe everything or to doubt everything: both ways keep you from thinking.

It is very important for certain groups to unravel the 9 / 11 truth movement through internal and external divisive techniques. There are the "no planers" the "mini nukers " the "scalar weapon" and the devoted rearguard members of direct interest who reside on these blogs and news wires, as the intelligence agencies, very interested parties and all their operatives. These persons are vested in activities that are either, disinformation to muddy the waters or the deliberate provocateurs inside the various groups.
All these phenomena are the results of real desperation by an overclass that is beginning to realize the old standards of public perception control are failing, and badly. Unfortunately for them at least, this is a new game for them and the actions they take are basically defensive in the face of a sea of data available to an exponentially growing public.
But it's interesting and very instructive to observe the standard methods of attack.
And how they approach the 'sato ghrati' in a open contest. The one thing that is important to remember is they lose badly.

Just a few random bits.

I believe that charcoal is created by the absence of oxygen, not the presence of it. The oxygen is required to burn something else to heat the chamber that the wood is in, but you don't want that all over the wood.

I'm not proposing that this is what happened. I don't know what happened, but, the more I mull it over, the more plausible it seems.

TWs assertions about steel seem to fit. I totally agree with the point about the collapse being icing on the cake. The point was to hit the towers and Pentagon.

I think that if Bush wanted to hit the towers, he'd just cooperate with someone who wants to do it.

I don't think Israel did it. It's possible Israelis were involved, especially if the neocons were involved. Basically, I think it's very likely that Bin Laden's group did it. I just wonder why.

Look, here's a parallel. I just spent a few hours watching old WW2 propaganda films and cartoons. They're mostly anti-Hitler and anti-Nazi. That's the conventional ignorance -- that Hitler was a bad guy so we went in to stop him. Nobody who's serious about history believes that.

Likewise, the reasons for the actions after 9/11 are not totally clear, but the PNAC document and the post-war Afghanistan government indicate "empire." What's not really clear is the whos, whats, and whys of 911.

I'll make a story up that might be plausible. Iran and Israel, though not allies, had a common interest in seeing an invasion of Iraq carried out. They see value in supporting enemy terrorists, to increase tensions, to the point where the US steps up bombing on Iraq, and destabilizes it. They hear about the WTC plans, but remain mum, knowing it would draw the US into the region.

That's just pure speculation there. No evidence. No experience. No information.

If the ultimate goal was Iraq, why didn't they set up 19 Iraqis instead of Saudis?

1.
" I believe that charcoal is created by the absence of oxygen, not the presence of it. The oxygen is required to burn something else to heat the chamber that the wood is in, but you don't want that all over the wood"

Where is charcoal mentioned and what does that have to do with this?
2.
"TWs assertions about steel seem to fit."

Then the UL tests of the WTC steel are in question?
[From: Kevin R Ryan/SBN/ULI
To: frank.gayle@nist.gov
Date: 11/11/2004

Dr. Gayle,

Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.

As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.]
3.
"wet carpets" {?} and other class Two fire code materials need ideal furnace conditions to do more than smolder and the evidence of people standing by the openings belie this proposal.
4.
"I don't think Israel did it. It's possible Israelis were involved, especially if the neocons were involved. Basically, I think it's very likely that Bin Laden's group did it. I just wonder why.
Look, here's a parallel. I just spent a few hours watching old WW2 propaganda films and cartoons. They're mostly anti-Hitler and anti-Nazi. That's the conventional ignorance -- that Hitler was a bad guy so we went in to stop him. Nobody who's serious about history believes that."

This is not even related to the original premiss and I'm not sure what this has to do with physical evidence. A side distraction? Nor sure what you are getting at here. johnk.

"aluminum doesn't fuse yellow hot"

Maybe you're right. If you got your info from Jones though, don't count on it. Whatever that burning solid was, its physical behavior wasn't consistent with thermite either (a finely divided powder that's essentially a super-hot LIQUID when ignited -- not "chunky").

The real point here, oK & pals, is that the tower collapses, no matter what caused them, were way out on the extreme end of the "freak occurences" category. The room for all sorts of unexpected virtually inexplicable weirdnesses both during and after is enormous. The best structural scientists on earth would be dishonest were they to take your "definitely this, obviously that" tone. The towers' structural system (among others) was quite unique; the physical attack they suffered also has virtually no exact counterpart in history; the sheer scale of the collapse was quite unprecedented; put all this together and no one but an ignorant layman with a political agenda would presume such cut-and-dried knowledge about how things "obviously" "definitely" should have transpired

I said this shit before, too:
"I think Johnk's point is that there are whole alternate universes of variables being left out by the 9-11 "we know ALL the truth" crowd, which has a very layman-like way of reducing a fantastically complex scenario to "1+1=2" "

Oh, but you got your holy grail, the great vaunted "smoking gun," so who gives a fuck? "Don't you dare pop our bubble, TW, you CoIntelPro cop you! We're SO onto you!! Yeah, you're gonna go down hard!"

You don't have shit. You're a herd of idiots being led by a pack of lying assholes / political maniacs, some of whom I know first-hand and wouldn't trust as far as a fuckin flea could throw them. It's obvious you've watched WAY too much TV and movies, and this has become your "reality."

Speaking of CoIntelPro cops, have you ever heard of "snitch jacketing." It's when the REAL CoIntelPro cop frames someone else as an infiltrator in order to deflect suspicion away from themselves. It's a classic move

Based on the "proof" Stephen Jones has fabrica-- er, "assembled," you don't have anything like a conclusive case that the towers were blown up, all you got is a lot of pumping screaming bullshit noise, and yet here you are throwing all your bets into this one horse, which will never cross anything resembling a finish line. It's just gonna keep running around and around out in some field like the loco nag that it is. Mark my words. Meanwhile, the broad circumstantial case that this government pulled 9-11 has never ceased to be your prize possession, and the few people in your leadership who do have admirable minds, like Webster Tarpley, still appreciate this. Too bad the rest of you are reactionary simpletons, but then 9-11 **POLITICS** has become quite the band-wagon, so I guess it's inevitable that the mental LCD would take over. It just makes me feel more than ever like this country is hopelessly fucked, that's all: Even the alleged "TRUTH-SEEKERS" are willing to use specious arguments for political purposes, and it can't be brought to your attention that you're doing it because you don't even have a truth ethic, really. You're just flavor #583 in the endless parade of American fuckheads. You want to save the world? Group-hug some thermonukes and blow yourselves into the stratosphere. Take the mental/spiritual wasteland called "Middle America" with you. It's the main tumor killing the world

Nope, no matter how you slice it. still baloney. Even if you take 12 paragraphs to slice it.
And it's easy to cast ad-hominims with out any evidence.

Just like our Zionists pervs.

After some thought, i'm recanting the Iran part. I still see motivation for some people in Israel to hope for a terrorist attack in the US. (Iran's more interested in Iraq, which has been a top priority for them all this time.) Had a less serious 911 ocurred (say, one plane, no collapse, or no planes because all of them were shot down), we would have stepped up our presence in the area.

Maybe other people in other countries have their own motivations. I just don't know what they are.

Also, speaking of Iran, the whole situation is going nuts. Iraq was being bombed during the 90s... and when Iraq's being attacked, some folks in Iran want to help. Makes me wonder if the current trash talk isn't just the tip of the iceberg -- maybe there's a lover's quarrel going on between Iranian spies and Bush's Iran-Contra buddies. Then again, the relationship with Bin Laden and the CIA funders was over with, too. Revenge? Beats me.

Thanks for the UL letter.

I'll assume a lot of charcoal probably didn't form. It's just an idea that came to me when I read the 911 material on that linked site.

Also, I believe they test against wet carpet because old carpet probably burns like new, wet carpet. (See the EPA link I provided - they also tested against wet carpet, but in a furnace-like condition.)

Of course, the carpet in the WTC wasn't wet, but dirty. Perhaps, the jet fuel could have "dry cleaned" the dirty carpet and made it behave like new, but untreated carpet. (That's all "dry cleaning" is -- solvents that dissolve grease stains in fabric.) Jet fuel is just kerosene and paraffin, and probably doesn't mix with water (being a fuel and all) -- while dirty carpet might wick up jet fuel, due to all the drops of mayo blobs and chocoaltes by the office workers.

But I'm going out on a limb here. I just made all that stuff up. I'm no scientist, just a regular guy who, as a child, learned to make "flamethrowers" with a cigarette and a can of hairspray.

"Then again, the relationship with Bin Laden and the CIA funders was over with, too."
Not with the ISI wiring Atta money up to the week of the attack, johnk.
The ISI is just an extension of the CIA.

Alright.
I got off on the wrong tack here. Osama Denied the relationship to the attack anyway in a non video f2f interview with the BBC.

Who ever heard of a 'chunky' precipitate from thermite in any of the visuals?
This TW is a real piece of work.

"Who ever heard of a 'chunky' precipitate from thermite in any of the visuals?"

Huh, yoo mean yoo aint seed this vid-eee-oh yit

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet%2B9/11

But yoo a EK-SPURT!

MAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!

CHUNCKY? Cheese?

That's what I call an ex-spurt opinion.
This is what is known as trying to 'baffle with bull shit'.

incandesent iron streaming from various pionts as well as 'squibs' and the resulting pyroclastic clouds all show evidence of an extremely energetic pulverization.
johnk, why haven't you been interested in this event? This seems strange.
We have come to expect more from you. I realize you have other tasks, but this is a super critical facet, a prima fascia crime of the overclass authoritarian structure.
I thought you arkies were more into analysis.

Found another copy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite

Both S. Jones and A. Jones have claimed the material spilling out of the window is thermite. There is a point in the video in which you can clearly see tumbling solid pieces, i.e. "chunks."

I know fucking well you scum have seen this video. Whichever of you cheesedicks said "aluminum doesn't fuse yellow-hot," for example. Why didn't you just admit you've seen it? Cuz you're jumping leaping hole-hopping POLITICAL RATS, mebbe? Yeah.

If you really hadn't seen it, you're an even more assholish bunch of posers than I thought

I especially like the part where the New York babies get their bassinet kicked over real good and have a mass mental breakdown. HAHA! Clue for stupid-ass Americans: New Yorkers don't live in the same country as you. They're the arrogant colons who took over here after the British got chased out. They hate you, as colons *must* hate those they parasitize if they're to justify their hookworm existence. They're your mortal enemies. Fuck 'em. The next time something like this happens to them, dance and sing and call whoever did it your friend. That'll fuck the psy-op right there. You got that, Termini?

I know that CHUNKY strainer wouldn't work.
Is that all you have? And you base 'the planes did it' on CHUNCKY incandescent streams of metal?
Very good. So far. I am laughing now.

...but do you actually have a THOUGHT in your brain? You beg the question by presenting these ridiculous "show sentences" that don't really say much.

Could I get some actual cogent feedback on the following for example? Do you have it in you?

The steel didn't have to melt for the towers to fail. Steel can fail by deformation without melting. Grab a table fork with both hands and you can bend it right over. This unrecovering deformation is called 'yielding.' How much stress per square inch of section a steel can absorb before yielding is called its 'yield strength.' Yield strength, NOT melting point, is the key to the collapse of the towers (and to structural design parameters in general). The yield strength of structural steels is extremely high at mundane temperatures, but declines in a roughly linear manner as the steel is heated. By 'roughly linear,' I mean that whatever percentage the steel is heated toward its melting point from room temperature, this is approximately how much its yield strength declines from the room temperature value.

Steel building frames are NOT "fantastically strong." They are surprisingly fragile. This is what engineering is all about: getting the structure EXACTLY as strong as it needs to be, no stronger. Steel sections in most structures are calculated to support foreseeable loads plus a 25% "safety factor." Therefore the steel of a building only has to be weakened by 20% for structural collapse to become imminent. Therefore -- per "roughly linear" -- it only has to be heated 20% of the way between room temperature and melting point for collapse to become imminent. This would happen in the mid-hundreds of degrees centigrade.

This is why conventional steel-frame construction calls for FIRE-CLADDING around all structural members, usually in the form of poured concrete. This IS NOT for strength. It actually decreases the structural efficiency of the steel frame and thus limits the design. What the concrete does is sop up heat so the frame doesn't fail in the event of a bad fire.

With the single exception of the "aluminum doesn't fuse yellow-hot" remark, not a one of you punks has rebutted SHYITT

What we have here is another temper tantrum from TW or what ever you call yourself now.
Still laughing at the dance you do.
'the planes did it'
That would of course account for the CHUNCKY metal streams coming from the buildings before collapse. Thanks for telling us your interpretation on what we've seen.
And the link which did operate.

Okay, CD punks, second chance: see if you can rebut this one:

Here are videos of the north and south tower collapses.

http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/south_tower_collapse.mpeg

http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/north_tower_collapse.mpeg

Q: "In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?"

A: It means that the demolitions teams had to have rigged only a single stratum of each building with charges -- the stratum in which the collapse initiated -- and that a given plane then had to fly into exactly that level. However improbable this sounds, you have to take this improbability and MULTIPLY IT BY ITSELF, since the stunt was successfully pulled off TWICE, once for each building.

There is of course the competing hypothesis: that the manner in which the structural failures occurred precisely at the levels of impact is elegantly explained by the impacts themselves.

I know which explanation Sir William of Occam would choose: the second

this is what is known as a false delema.
"Q: "In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?" "

A. Since remote guidance or a version of Global Hawk is suspected to have been used, it only follows that the perps who wired the structures knew the probable points of impact, therefore the point of initial explosive sequencing. Many 'planes did it' proponents bring this apparent anomaly up to infer that because this is where the destruction *reportedly* started and that this was caused by the impact.

The destruction on the north WTC ( 2nd link ) began with the *core and radio tower* de-solving into destruction and not the point of impact which failed first.

You still are avoiding the admitted flows of molten steel which is not possible is we only consider a kerosine fire ( jp4) and the low temperatures this type of fuel produces.

You can stuff the junk yard dog dialogue because it makes you look like a spastic, spoiled baby.

Explain the molten steel.

If you want me to address a point, quit wallowing around in the verbal mud and EXPRESS it.

By "admitted flows of molten steel" do you mean what was found in the basement weeks later? I addressed that. I don't even insist my conjecture is reality. The real point is there's too much time lag, too many calories in evidence, in short too much extraneous noise creeping into the picture for the molten steel in the basement to figure into rigorous "proof" that explosives were used. Like so many of the CD crowd's favorites, this has always been a RHETORICAL point of suasion, not a scientific one

Do you mean the burning material from the "thermite" video? That could not possibly have been steel, which burns freely only in an enriched, heated oxygen atmosphere.

I don't know what else you could mean. You have to be more clear.

The radio tower merely telegraphs the failure of the core, which could be happening at any elevation: you can't tell, it's occurring deep inside the building. I never said "the POINT of impact," dammit, I said the LEVEL of impact. Reviewing the video, the initial buckling of the exterior shell seems to happen several floors above the lowest level of the fire, which implies this is where the core failure initiated also, but no one on earth really knows. If so, this isn't inconsistent with the idea that the fire caused by the plane engulfed the core and cooked it to the point of failure (mid-hundreds of degrees C, remember). Fire and its heat product both propagate UP, a la convection. Another thing this video documents is that the fire was still a terrifying inferno, not "mostly burned out," as I believe has been argued.

Why would the demolition teams rig the two towers DIFFERENTLY?

By bringing up remote control at this juncture, what you've done is introduce a CONJECTURE that you THINK gets you around my objection. Perhap's you didn't recognize my reference to Occam's Razor? Occam's Razor still favors my premise over yours. And your conjecture doesn't figure into rigorous proof either. We can go on endlessly about what COULD have happened, but what does this have to do with your "proof." Even if you're right, having a demolitions team rig only one stratum of the building would have still been very chancy, ergo very hare-brained, and any demolitions scenario you can come up with to get around this only increases the complexity further, i.e. puts you further into the red with Sir Occam. Your desperation to cling to controlled demolition is taking you into very Rube Goldberg scenarios here, and controlled demolition was already Rube Goldberg enough

My point with Occam's Razor (and yet more stuff I haven't even brought up) is that I have good sound rational reasons to not commit to controlled demolition, while your "proof" is in fact a figment of your highly motivated imagination, stroked by a few very slick rhetoricians (Griffin foremost) and reinforced by all the people riding that band-wagon with you.

Band-wagons bore me, angels-on-a-pinhead bullshit-o-holics like Griffin piss me off no end, and brainwashed glassy-eyed fanatics give me the creeps! That last is what the CD crowd has become.

I've brought up lots of stuff you obviously can't handle, AND I've already fielded your "molten steel" canard (for the fourth fucking time: too many calories), and yet you keep clinging to it like it's your life preserver

"Molten steel!!"
"Molten steel!!"
blat! blat! blat!
"Molten steel!!"
"Molten steel!!"
blat! blat! blat!
"Molten steel!!"
"Molten steel!!"
blat! blat! blat!
"Molten steel!!"
"Molten steel!!"
blat! blat! blat!
"Molten steel!!"
"Molten steel!!"
blat! blat! blat!

"...it makes you look like a spastic, spoiled baby"

This is yet another sign you're less than astute, oK: you imagine I give a fuck what you or anyone else around here thinks of me

If you think my 'aluminum fires in the rubble' scenario is absurd, why don't you explain why? You can't do it, can you? If such an argument involves more than one sentence or one idea, you're fucked, aren't ya?

Remember this: I'm not the one who cursed myself with claims of "proof." This leaves me free to indulge in conjectures all I want. You're the one pretending to know "exactly" "precisely" what "obviously" "definitely" happened. Don't blame me cuz you stuck your head in that bear trap. Idiot.

It's just my personality. I always read the local section of the paper before the national and world news sections.

"By "admitted flows of molten steel" do you mean what was found in the basement weeks later?"
no you spoiled baby, I mean the CHUNCKY streams of iron / steel from the video you provided links to.
Sheeesh.

but christ, you're easy to reveal as a student of the ol soft shoe.

"Do you mean the burning material from the "thermite" video? That could not possibly have been steel, which burns freely only in an enriched, heated oxygen atmosphere. "

What are you talking about? Is this more of your extensive knowledge in chemistry? Anyone can make thermite. All you need is a magnet to harvest Fe2O3 9 (Black rust or iron filings) and aluminum powder.
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html
When ignited, produces a white hot "exothermic" ( and then some ) reaction of molten steel at temperatures that will cut through any metal.
Please. This is too easy, Whizz.

"Maj. Cheese!"

"yes, sir"
"bend over, you erred. That's NOT "molten steel" that's incandescent, nearly pure IRON which only remains pure until it encounters 'contaminants!"
"GOD I'm sorry!"

You cannot get good help anymore.

Battalian O Freaks request for johnk.
Please sir, if you must voice an opinion on these very serious issues.
[ And we know you do not pretend to represent IMC LA but we've come to love you, ya and any how, don't break our hearts please...] please be interested.
Thank you.

PARIS - President Jacques Chirac said Saturday that information contained in a leaked intelligence document raising the possibility that Osama bin Laden may have died of typhoid in Pakistan last month is "in no way whatsoever confirmed."


Chirac said he was "a bit surprised" at the leak and has asked Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie to probe how a document from a French foreign intelligence service was published in the French press.

The regional newspaper l'Est Republicain on Saturday printed what it described as a copy of a confidential document from the DGSE intelligence service citing an uncorroborated report from Saudi secret services that the leader of the al-Qaida terror network had died.

Officials from Afghanistan to Washington expressed doubts about the report.

Two American intelligence officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue said Saturday that U.S. agencies have no evidence to suggest a reason to believe that bin Laden is dead or dying.

The DGSE transmitted the document, dated Sept. 21 or Thursday, to Chirac and other top French officials, the newspaper said.

"This information is in no way whatsoever confirmed," Chirac said Saturday when asked about the document. "I have no comment."

A senior official in Afghanistan's Foreign Ministry said he was "very skeptical of the truthfulness" of the document, noting past false reports of the death of bin Laden. He declined to be identified because he was not authorized to discuss the issue publicly.

In Washington, Blair Jones, a presidential spokesman, said Saturday that the White House could not confirm the accuracy of the report that bin Laden may have died.

CIA duty officer Paul Gimigliano also said he could not confirm the DGSE report.

The Washington-based IntelCenter, which monitors terrorism communications, said it was not aware of any similar reports on the Internet.

"We've seen nothing from any al-Qaida messaging or other indicators that would point to the death of Osama bin Laden," IntelCenter director Ben N. Venzke told The Associated Press.

Al-Qaida would likely release information of his death fairly quickly if it were true, said Venzke, whose organization also provides counterterrorism intelligence services for the American government.

"They would want to release that to sort of control the way that it unfolds. If they wait too long, they could lose the initiative on it," he said.

The last time the IntelCenter says it could be sure bin Laden was alive was June 29, when al-Qaida released an audiotape in which the terror leader eulogized the death of al-Qaida in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was killed in a U.S. air strike in Iraq earlier that month.

Chirac spoke at a news conference with Russian President Vladimir Putin and German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Compiegne, France, where the leaders were holding a summit.

Putin suggested that leaks can be ways to manipulate. "When there are leaks ... one can say that (they) were done especially."

Earlier the French defense ministry said it was opening an investigation into the leak.

"The information published this morning by the l'Est Republicain newspaper concerning the possible death of Osama bin Laden cannot be confirmed," a Defense Ministry statement said.

The DGSE, or Direction Generale des Services Exterieurs, indicated that its information came from a single source.

"According to a usually reliable source, Saudi security services are now convinced that Osama bin Laden is dead," said the intelligence report.

There have been periodic reports of bin Laden's illness or death in recent years but none has been proven accurate.

According to this report, Saudi security services were pursuing further details, notably the place of his burial.

"The chief of al-Qaida was a victim of a severe typhoid crisis while in Pakistan on August 23, 2006," the document says. His geographic isolation meant that medical assistance was impossible, the French report said, adding that his lower limbs were allegedly paralyzed.

The report further said Saudi security services had their first information on bin Laden's alleged death on Sept. 4.

"Today, bin Laden is certainly not in Afghanistan," Bentegeat said. "No one is completely certain that he is even alive."

Gee after being dead for over two years they finally notice the smell?
http://nevertoomuchgarlic.net

What does OSL being dead-
[ this parrot is DEAD... ]
-have to do with molten iron /steel flowing from the building in the moments before that very energetic disintegration ?

'planes did it'

Repeating myself again here:
"Clue for 9-11 bullshitters: insisting you know something like this for sure when there's no way you can is a kind of lie. No, really!"

Captain Cheesedick: "Anyone can make thermite"

Uh-huh. And what does this have to do with steel/iron not burning freely in open air?

Clue for teevee-edjamacated mur-kann imm-bow-siles: Fe2O3 mixed with aluminum is NOT the same thing as steel. Is this too hard for you?

So now that was "molten steel" seen falling through the window? Uh, "molten" means, um, ah, "LIQUID," YA KNOW?? LIQUIDS don't usually exhibit properties like *brittleness* and *dimensional_stability* in free-fall. No, really!

You were saying something was "easy," Capt. Cheesedick? I guess you meant the ease with which you lie through your teeth?

You said "ADMITTED flows..." So now the US guv has declared that stuff to be "molten steel??" I'd like to see that announcement. Got a link?

I think you should try it out. Thermite is VERY dangerous, but useful as it is easy to make. Not for dweebs or dorks who complain after the results burn through what ever it was on and what ever was under it. as well as anything near it. They used it during WWII in the fire storm raids over Germany.
And we still have no explanation for how 'the planes did it' by producing CHUNCKY ( I like it smooth ) flows of incandescent iron before total disintegration.

You brought up remote control, oK. I'm a major fan of the remote control theory. So clean and tidy, what a perfect 'plausible deniability' scenario! Need-to-know could be limited to an amazingly tiny number of core agents with very tidy public exposures, IF ANY -- unlike controlled demolition, where you have teams of goons grunting and puffing as they lug hundreds of pounds of thermite or whatever around to place it on, among other things, THE COLUMNS FLANKING THE DOORS TO THE MAIN ELEVATORS ON ANY GIVEN FLOOR. Oh, but who's gonna notice that? It's only two of the most watched buildings in the world.

Then there's the way a certain Rabbi Dov Zakheim (a co-author of PNAC's 'Rebuilding America's Defenses, close advisor to Dubya Bush during his 2000 campaign, head Pentagon money man afterward (made off with a cool $trillion$ or so), zionist royalty with family connections to the original Jabotinsky nutcases) just happened to be an executive officer with Systems Planning Corporation, a world leader in REMOTE CONTROL AVIONICS. Yeah.

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/02-14-05/discussion.cgi.58.html

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1927

This connection is so amazing! It's enough to make you fear for your life just knowing about. It has been incredible to me how little interest this angle has attracted from the likes of you. Granted it doesn't have people all around it blowing trumpets and banging drums the way neato-cool CD does. Oh, and here's the clincher: it doesn't have the POLITICAL "legs"

Yeah

Your Einstein quote was a fraud. But you already knew that, didn't you?

Thanks for the floor plans. Now could we have the real floor plans since all the blue prints from the WTC are now classified by the Justice Dept.?

And during the power downs, a well trained team with proper thermate, thermite and /HE could rig the building with out using 'tons' of material if *they* had operational structural plans.
Continue, oh great Whizzard.

Get off the web. Look it up in a book.

This photo shows, above the fireman, a major support cut by SOMETHING that left traces of metal drippings along the 45 degree cut.

This is during the immediate search and rescue before any of the materials were removed.

You've already proven you are a cheat and a liar. You've already proven you'll continue to lie until you get called on it.
So lets see proof of this allegation.
We are waiting.

before SY gets hidden, or after, why do you want me to break into a library now at night, on the weekend?

I think that since you provided the 'floor plan' it would be up to you to prove its authenticity.

still no explanation for the dripping, oozing, CHUNCKY streams of incandescent metal. Not from 'the planes did it'.

and the effects they have on thought .
[ I explained about the effects of thermite]
"Uh-huh. And what does this have to do with steel/iron not burning freely in open air? [ what does what have to do with anything? Can you understand the process I explained? If not, I am well trained to instruct,even the more challenged students]

Clue for teevee-edjamacated mur-kann imm-bow-siles: Fe2O3 mixed with aluminum is NOT the same thing as steel. Is this too hard for you? "
[did you even read the link I provided? I did say an incandescent Iron precipitate that cut through any metal, didn't I? ]
And that's just raw thermite.

"...a major support cut by SOMETHING ... This is during the immediate search and rescue before any of the materials were removed."

And whose august word would I be taking for that last part? Yours? Griffin's? Jones'? If you can back this up by citing the photograph's origin, please do. I'm betting you don't have a blithering clue where it came from. You don't imagine the rescue workers weren't cutting through stuff like this during the initial search and rescue effort, do you?

Oh, and look at how honkin' HUGE that structural element is. I bet it would take a lot of pounds of thermite to burn through something like that. However many pounds it took, you have to multiply that by however many such beams were cut. And I didn't say "tons," lying dicksuck

This is the whole trouble with your "proof" right here in this photo. It's the same sort of argument the zionists use to "prove" things: a cherry-picked hash of talking points, images, simple-minded technical and historical canards, etc. that doesn't really live up to the word "proof." What it DOES add up to is a **MEMETIC DESIGN** originated by Griffin, the one you controlled demolition fanatics infect each other with, just like the zio-Borg do with their bigotspeak, and this doesn't happen against anybody's will. You schmucks WANT to believe.

If you weren't such grotesque incestuous fucking mental slobs, you just might come up with a REAL smoking gun

But never mind all that. I'm letting you get away with far too much. I asked you a question, lying fuck. You ignored it. Here it is again

You said "ADMITTED flows..." So now the US guv has declared that stuff to be "molten steel??" I'd like to see that announcement. Got a link?

You can't even communicate effectively in writing! And now you're presuming to do better verbally? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You "explained a process?" When the fuck was that, Einstein? Why don't you show me the passage? Wow, you have a really grandiose opinion of yourself, huh? Maybe if you stopped bubbling that bong 15 times a day, you'd actually live up to it

About the above photo.

If you know about the *process* of a cutting torch, you would know that the 'cutter' would have to be INSIDE the huge piece of steel to produce such an external bead/dripline. Such a process would also BAKE the poor unfortunate doing the work. Having proficiency in both gas and electric welding, I happen to know about this stuff. A course in metallurgy didn't hurt either.

List the phases of iron. Which of them accounts for the hardness of hardened steels?

So then you're confirming that this slag is consistent with the use of a cutting torch. Thank you!

If you're such a hot-shit welder, then you know there's more than one way to skin a cat. The cutter could have opened a hole through one of the sides so he could reach the torch in to cut this side from within -- because that's how it needed to be done for some reason. Then your hero Griffin got his hands on this photo -- without knowing ANYTHING about its context -- and crowed aha! "PROOF." Being an angels-on-a-pinhead professional sophist, that would be about his speed. Scrambling people's brains by design is all Christian Theologist bullshits have EVER done. It's all they know.

What about the streams of metal, Whizz?

-So then you're confirming that this slag is consistent with the use of a cutting torch. Thank you!-
[ no you idiot, that's the opposite of what I slowly, and simply explained to you in the last post.]

Please pay attention or I'll continue to humiliate you in public, as if you need any help.

That has no bearing on the questions. You don't know, do you? You're just a posturing punk-ass blowhard, aren't you? Hey, maybe your bong knows the answer!

"The cutter could have opened a hole through one of the sides so he could reach the torch in to cut this side from within -- "

I can picture that. ( trying NOT to laugh, thinking of cutting a four foot wide steel square channel support, from a 'hole through the side' ) You ever held a job, junior?

The terms body and sided faced carbon refer to the positioning of the molecule of carbon in the tempering process. But yes, tempering and quench medium are a side issue, for sure.

What about the molten metal which I explained:
Isn't liquid aluminum because it would be BURNING FIERCELY at that temperature and heat light.
and
Cannot be produced by any *process* you have brought forward by 'the planes did it' theory.

so I'll state it again.
-What about the molten metal which I explained:
Isn't liquid aluminum because it would be BURNING FIERCELY at that temperature and heat light.
and
Cannot be produced by any *process* you have brought forward by 'the planes did it' theory.-

nothing here about cold fusion except from your desperation.

from the keyboard of Whizz.

"I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred"
So your model of 'the planes did it' cannot fit the phenomena observed.
And therefore is invalid.

I know he'll be grouchy and hung over, but could he address this package?
{ha ha}
Despite the aberrant posts about dead guys, cold fusion, profanity and general seizures of CNS dis order, read this and respond, in English.
If possible under a thousand words.

[-What about the molten metal which I explained:
Isn't liquid aluminum because it would be BURNING FIERCELY at that temperature and heat light.
and
Cannot be produced by any *process* you have brought forward by 'the planes did it' theory. Period.]

[ and from the keyboard of Whizz. ]

"I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred"

[ So your model of 'the planes did it' cannot fit the phenomena observed.
And therefore is invalid. ]
Or are you going to have another Tourette's episode?

There is only one possible material streaming ( I like it smooth but TW likes it chuncky ) from the buildings in question [ WTC 1& 2 ] and this is the precipitate from thermite which is incandescent iron ( that means very very very hot, Whizz) and is used routinely in industry.
This together with reported pools of liquid steel at their bases, support the hypothesis to the use of variations of thermite cutting packages and their attendant , visual yellow /orange hot ( with the typical grey smoke this reaction produces) by products observed ( thanks for the link, Whizz )breaching the support structures.
So.
'the planes did it' - not.

My PRECIOUS. visual evidence of thermite. Good [ pat- pat ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite
Again I must thank you. Ever considered a line of work a little less stressful and filled with bad nights?
How many time must I humiliate you and cause you to come back with a new nick, if not persona?
Damn, are you a masochist?
'the planes did it'

Bullshitsky said: "So your model of 'the planes did it' cannot fit the phenomena observed."

Oh, my take on the collapse pays WAY closer attention to the FULL SWEEP of OBSERVABLE details than your hysterical cherry-picked CD-'Borg fantasies.

For example, I've blown up your KEY LIE that the fires weren't hot enough to cause the frame to fail. You ran from that one like a rat with a roman candle shoved up its ass. This revealed that, despite all your posturing, you're a TECHNICAL IGNORAMUS on such matters, JUST LIKE ALL OF JONES' / GRIFFIN'S MINDLESS 'BORG FOLLOWERS (remember how you claimed to know metallurgy? That pose is toast now, too. Metallurgists use unique lingo not borrowed from physics)

Your idea of "proving" controlled demolition would do any zionist proud: zeroing in on certain cherished video clips and photographs culled from 100,000 times as much material, each of which is way more ambiguous and problematic than you pretend when placed in the proper context of larger bodies of information. You ignore those larger bodies because you have no interest in them. Why let stupid trivial FACTS interfere with the exquisite cherry-strewn semantic confection Griffin has so perfectly arranged for you?

You haven't put ONE SCINTILLA of your own thought into your position on the towers' collapse. All you've done is sop up dogmas without question from people like Griffin, just like a good jumping monkey. That's cuz you're really just a typical no-brain American fuckhead -- of the anti- instead of the pro- variety, perhaps, but aside from this **attitude** variation just another corn-fed brain-dead teevee zombie.

Commit to the Truth, wherever it may lead you? Fuck that! Politics is WAY more fun than stupid Truth!

I've accepted that the planes probably caused the collapses NOT BECAUSE I WANTED TO, but because that hypothesis fits ALL the available facts better than any other, certainly better than yours. This is what commitment to truth really looks like. You just can't relate.

Accepting that the planes caused the collapses does not undermine the larger questions AT ALL

The mob of mental slobs riding your band-wagon has already destroyed this movement, which in the post-Bush years is going to find itself in the UFO/Chemtrails/fake-Apollo dust bin of popular culture. It's YOUR mental slobbery as a "truth" activist that's opened the door to that, and your ideological opponents appreciate your help SOOO MUCH! You've handed them your own demise. Just remember this ten years from now

The ease with which people like Griffin reduce people like you to lurching mindless fanatics really is terrifying

Oh, and I addressed your "molten metal" idiocy:

"I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred, NEITHER DO YOU, AND NEITHER DOES JONES. The way a true scientist (as opposed to a bullshit freak like Jones) would know this is by TESTING A SAMPLE of that material. PERIOD"

That's solid. If you don't agree, so what? You're a weak-minded self-deceiving LIAR, and this is how political liars like you and Jones operate: You take a "fact" that nobody can confirm and is therefore USELESS as a forensic datum, spin it as an "absolute certainty," and make it a cornerstone of your dogmas. Nobody can confirm it, but neither can anyone conclusively **REFUTE** it, which makes it "unassailable" in a PURELY RHETORICAL sense. This is its entire value. Any loser bullshit artist swilling cheap shots in Any Bar, USA has an instinctive feel for this sort of opportunity. So do their elder siblings, aka "politicians"

In fact YOU DON'T KNOW what that stuff was, nobody does, nobody ever will, and you're a grotesque asshole when you CLAIM to "know," but why let that ruin your little political game?

you managed to keep it under a thousand words.
You don't know what happened or why, but you know 'the planes did it'.
Good point.

Where'd you get that from, Punk? Cuz I'm not buying your crowd's INSUPPORTABLE assertions about the "molten metal?" Clue for Punk: it wasn't molten. You don't even know it was a metal. You don't know what the fuck it was. Following the lead of your hero Steve 'paging Dr. Bullshit' Jones, you're just a liar capitalizing on the perfect loophole that nobody else can possibly know either.

Your entire argument in this thread has now dwindled down to this single isolated **forensically_WORTHLESS** bit of trivia. Oh wowza, what a menn-tull jye-yuntt-tuh you are-uh!! Yes, I'm so defeated! Woe is me!!

MYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAA

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things."

- René Descartes

oh just this:
""I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred, "

That's of course after trimming away the unsupportable ad hominums, equivocations, infantile understanding of chemistry, physics, industrial processes and lack of common sense.

That's where I got that.
I guess you want more abuse at my hands You may proceed.
Rust never sleeps.

Was was it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite

Oh that's right. It was CHUNCKY and therefore not a product of a thermite reaction.
Do you really like your self enforced abuse here at the edge of my razor wit and reductive sarcasm?
And aside from your Tourret's episodes of obligatory profanity, and as a personal inquiry about you as an organism, are you still feeling grouchy?

"-remember how you claimed to know metallurgy? That pose is toast now, too. Metallurgists use unique lingo not borrowed from physics-"

You're funny.
Which discipline must I abandon to frame the discussion for your approval?
Another thing, Whizz, there are readers following this who most likely share these technologies and no one has come forward to interject any correction save for your 'opposing conjectures'.
As always, I wait for valid input.
keyword being valid.

Abandon? It's whether you actually KNOW the disciplines you CLAIM that's getting the acid-test here. **YOU** are the one who dropped the word "metallurgy." Yoss, it does sound SSEWWW impressive, dahlingk. Eww mwy, an '-urgy,' even, not merely an '-ology.'

Pity you're just a bong-bubbling marshmallow striking a pose.

Here, Punk, I'll give you a big fat clue (cuz I know you STILL won't cough up the goods): the terminology for the phases of steel comes from the national culture that pioneered the science of steel

And this...

"...no one has come forward..."

...is:

1) untrue. "Johnk" DID chime in (see what that bong does to you?)

2) the classic logical fallacy 'argumentum ad populum.'

Go take a random survey. Ask 'the man on the street' if he agrees with the statement "Americans are essentially decent good-hearted people." 99+ percent will say "yes." Most of them will really mean it.

They're wrong. Americans as a group have been proving this statement false each and every year since 1608. They just don't want to know.

Punk asked: "Which discipline must I abandon..."[ come on Whizz, I could beat your but and stuff you into the garbage can you came from, Mr. Tuffbaby]
by TW Monday, Sep. 25, 2006 at 1:02 PM

Abandon? It's whether you actually KNOW the disciplines you CLAIM that's getting the acid-test here. **YOU** are the one who dropped the word "metallurgy." Yoss, it does sound SSEWWW impressive, dahlingk. Eww mwy, an '-urgy,' even, not merely an '-ology.'
[ hmmmm. still nothing but squalling, from 'the planes did it', noise with nothing to back it up with ]

Pity you're just a bong-bubbling marshmallow striking a pose.
[ nah, that couldn't be another empty ad hominum could it be?]

Here, Punk, [ see above comment about being re-arranged ] I'll give you a big fat clue (cuz I know you STILL won't cough up the goods): the terminology for the phases of steel comes from the national culture that pioneered the science of steel [ and that would be France who pioneered gas welding, ]

And this...

"...no one has come forward..."

...is:

1) untrue. "Johnk" DID chime in (see what that bong does to you?)
[ johnk is even more ignorant than you are about this and he at least admitted it if you'll scroll up and read it this time ]
2) the classic logical fallacy 'argumentum ad populum.'

Go take a random survey. Ask 'the man on the street' if he agrees with the statement "Americans are essentially decent good-hearted people." 99+ percent will say "yes." Most of them will really mean it. [ then there are the vicious little rabid psycho -weasels like you]

They're wrong. Americans as a group have been proving this statement false each and every year since 1608. They just don't want to know.
[oh contrare, many of them do wish to know and that's why you're squatting right here to 'gatekeep'.]
++++++for a rehash after the food fight.
[-What about the molten metal which I explained:
Isn't liquid aluminum because it would be BURNING FIERCELY at that temperature and heat light.
and
Cannot be produced by any *process* you have brought forward by 'the planes did it' theory. Period.]

[ and from the keyboard of Whizz. ]

"I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred"

[ So your model of 'the planes did it' cannot fit the phenomena observed.
And therefore is invalid. ]
and the graciously provided video from Whizz which shows thermite tell tales.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite

Who said anything about "liquid aluminum"? Where? Show me??

Oooh-ho-ho, that's right, your bullshit hero / 'Borg puppetmaster STEPHEN JONES is always the one throwing out the 'molten aluminum' red herring at this juncture. Yes, this is YET ANOTHER THING I was thinking of when I called him a pathological liar.

Clue for Punk: 'burning aluminum' and 'molten aluminum' are D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T

Another clue for Punk: teevee cameras have defined your entire "reality" for you, I know, but they're still not **scientific instruments.** That footage is not a reliable record of either the substance's brightness OR its emission spectrum. Teevee cameras manipulate both datums automatically to give the cud-chomping cattle in their living rooms the purdiest pitcher

Wow, you really lyuv this word "process," don't yew? How come, dahlingk? It's not nearly as chic as 'metallurgy'

If not, there is help for adult illiteracy.
burning aluminum' and 'molten aluminum' neither of which is possible from the visual evidence not evidence pulled from your nether regions.
I said molten iron / steel.
Not bright paint, not silly putty.
Evidence of thermite use.

"oh contrare"

Hmm. What language is this?

'Whiz' and 'chunky' have only one z and one c, respectively

Ooh-ho-ho, that's right: your 'Borg Puppetmaster STEPHEN JONES told you so. PERIOD.

If that was your summation, than I guess you are MT.[doesn't know chemistry ( although I know C Engineers who say they aren't sure ), physics or how to conclude a thesis.
The material in the video Isn't liquid aluminum because it would be BURNING FIERCELY at that temperature and heat light.
and
Cannot be produced by any *process* you have brought forward by 'the planes did it' theory. Period.]

[ and from the keyboard of Whizz. ]

"I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred"

[ So your model of 'the planes did it' cannot fit the phenomena observed.
And therefore is invalid. ]
and the graciously provided video from Whizz which shows thermite tell tales.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite

"Your entire argument in this thread has now dwindled down to this single isolated **forensically_WORTHLESS** bit of trivia."

Is this all yoo got? Cuz frankly you're starting to bore me

any deviation in a hypothesis negates the said hypothesis, and a different one must be constructed.
You lose.

So provide some entertainment for me for when I return.

"The material in the video Isn't liquid aluminum because..."

Oh yes, I'm sure this is absolutely solid information (coming from a CD-'Borg-bot whose favorite canards have been so demolished at this point that he doesn't even mention them any more, but he **STILL** won't stop to wonder if maybe he was fed a line of bullshit to begin with)

Yes, do tell. We trust you implicitly

Whizz can't deal with chemistry, physics, work practices or a little thermite between ad homonims and puffery.
'just a tiny itty bitty loophole' Like evidence of thermite.
Come on that should be easy for you and your team to pull at least something out that isn't silly or crazy. Something that 'the planes did it' would account for.

See there: you can't. Neither can 'Borgmaster Jones.

Then again, nobody can *disprove* it either, for the exact same reasons. How perfect for you! Now you can ride out any storm. The "hologram planes," the "no planes into the Pentagon" thing -- those trojan horses didn't catch on so good, but this CD thing is GOLDEN!! Yeah, you're gonna ride this one right into the sunset of total whack-job obscurity. How brilliant of you!

Chemistry? Physics? You've shown me up on these? When was that? I clearly remember YOU humiliating yourself repeatedly on this front or (more prudently) developing instant amnesia after certain technical points OF MINE tore your bullshit to shreds, but I don't remember it ever going the other way. Maybe you should show us.

Still waiting for the names of those phases, Mr. Metallurgy -- bwaw-haw!

CD 'Borgmaster Jones can't prove it, but that won't stop him from issuing his signature PSEUDO-"proof," which will more than satisfy his mindless 'Borg following. It's already in the works. He's got his Magic Sample of "thermate precipitate" that he pulled out of his ass, which is "sulfur-contaminated iron," which """""PROVES""""" -- did you catch that -- "*"*"*"PROVES"*"*"*" that sulfur-enriched thermite aka 'thermate' was used.

Of course, Jones, in possession as he is of higher-than-average scientific knowledge, knows perfectly well that it's not that simple. Steel is nearly pure iron, so the structural steel of the building could well be the source of his 'iron.' Meanwhile, there's this ubiquitous building material called "drywall," or "sheetrock," or "GYPSUM board." Its main ingredient is plaster, which consists mainly of the mineral GYPSUM, aka hydrated calcium SULFATE

CaSO4·2H2O

So in other words you take lots of drywall and lots of steel and you stir them together real good and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both, and "sulfur-contaminated iron" is not going to be an especially weird thing to pull out of the pot

Any undergrad chemistry major worth a damn would spot this possible source of noise and formally account for it in any such investigative treatise

Let's see if Jones does so

Anybody want to place any bets?

amazing-
"So in other words you take lots of drywall and lots of steel and you stir them together real good and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both, and "sulfur-contaminated iron" is not going to be an especially weird thing to pull out of the pot "

And that has what to do with 'the planes did it'?
nothing.

"at temperatures sufficient to melt both" dry wall ( a fire proof material used for interior walls ) and steel ...
I see you really did pull something from your nether regions.

"And that has what to do with 'the planes did it'?"

I'm making a prediction about the FAKE science typical of those who claim "the planes DIDN'T do it." That's what.

Too hard for you?

The Beatles: "happiness" ... is a warm gun

The Punk: "science" ... is a well-packed bowl

bang, bang, shoot, shoot

Do you know the temperature required to MELT sheet rock ( drywall ) and steel ( trying not to laugh as it interferes with my typing ) and then 'mix for three weeks' to produce absolute but pure BULL SHIT?

And that has what to do with this video??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite

Tell me all about it.

Punk re 'the man on the street': "[Most of them will really mean it] -- then there are the vicious little rabid psycho -weasels like you"

Naw, I wouldn't play politics with such a question

*I* NEVER do that

I would do what I always do: say exactly what I think

sis you really type this?
"-So in other words you take lots of drywall and lots of steel and you stir them together real good and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both, and "sulfur-contaminated iron" is not going to be an especially weird -"
And that's from your own thoughts and not some scrabble from someone else ?

Tell us more.

You said so yourself:

"...that's from your own thoughts..."

dam yoo dum!

Pack another bowl, Scooby

Here's a physics professor who has as little patience for bullshit as myself who has taken time out of his busy life to address the weird bong-bubbling "science" of the CD crowd

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/911NutPhysics.HTM

He's a serious student of 'Science, Pseudoscience, and Irrationalism' and has put together a huge well written site about same

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pscindx.htm

...being that most any physics PhD will have what it takes to see through your system of fallacies

-- assuming he doesn't have some fucked-up hidden agenda like Jones

yep, 'this professor says this' and since only *your* scientists, physicists, chemist etc. can be valid ( since you have nothing yourself) I refuse to argue with one of your freak reference sites.
It's much more, shall we say instantly gratifying, to watch you dissemble.

did you really type this?
"-So in other words you take lots of drywall and lots of steel and you stir them together real good and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both,-"
Now how does jet fuel ( forget the charcoal and wet jute muses having nothing to do with anything, even if johnk said it) provide the 'melting temperatures' for DRYWALL and STEEL?
Lord have mercy, you are desperate.
I would need a big bong of blond Lebanese, to try and understand that.

I'm not TW

I have been ghosting here while awaiting a reply to my email request on the question of whether it's possible to register here in order to prevent nick spoofing and I noticed the "whizz" label popped up which lead me to this thread to see you confusing TW with me..

Although he does likewise like in Arkansas and I have to admit I share his views on most of the issues I've seen him post about on here, I will say I do *not* share his views on the WTC (especially WTC-7) subject

To jog your memory you may recall I was one of the very first people to say demolition as I watched the towers implode on TV 5 years ago...

I am securely registered on Arkansas IMC BTW - as hex as usual - where I saw some more of your luxefaire spam voted down to hidden :)

as well as your attempts here as "x" and "b" continuing to be likewise..

I don't know who TW is, but rest assured he's not me - I wouldn't insult johnk or get into a debate about misogyny with "tia" and/or becky for example. and while he knows a bit about the hard sciences I wouldn't consider him an actual scientist based on what's he's posted above.

I do agree with him though on most of the issues he's posted about over the last several months - it's nice to know there's other people in Arkansas with a brain :)

How coincidental to 'show up' and put things straight.
Give me a break.

I told you why

1.) I'm waiting for a reply to my question about registering *after being invited back to continue posting here via email* as I don't intend to do so without a way to prevent nick spoofing

2.) your "whizz" *just* showed up in the comments section and reading this thread shows you're confusing him with me


and how do you explain our opposite views regarding WTC-9/11 ? (specifically I don't want you - or via your confusion - other people to think I don't think it was demolition as - again- I was one of the first people to say exactly that - even as I was watching the buildings implode on TV I thought *right then* they appeared to be)

while I don't share your more outlandish views about the details on them, *I do agree with you* that they were - remember all the data I've posted about video footage and *seismic measurements*, the molten puddles of steel, the framework - the central columns - how *over engineered* these buildings were (again especially WTC-7), the "pull it" comment on PBS, the fact that no steel framed building has ever collapsed from fire - even major fires lasting days - before or since, etc

please try to remember all the data I've posted on this - all opposed to what TW is saying regarding the buildings themselves (but not foreknowledge like the millions of dollars of *put options* paper trail that was buried)

I'm not becky, tia, TW, JA, toady, "smash the left" or any of the other people you've accused me of being..

I emailed this and the Arkansas IMC *detailed* and specific information to varify my identity and location and *REQUESTED* registration here and obtained registration on Arkansas IMC as a member of a private email-list (audio)

I intend to set up an IMC here since I now have paid commercial web hosting along with a permanent website for the station...

WTC-7 is a different subject ENTIRELY. I think it *was* blown up. It's the best way to explain the way it fell, and there's also what Silverberg is reliably reported to have said: "pull it"

"WTC-7 was blown up so therefore the towers were blown up too" is YET ANOTHER FALLACY in the CD system of bullshit. There is no automatic relationship here

I also don't agree with everything Prof. Dutch says about 9-11 (he seems to dismiss the inside job premise altogether), and nor are my opinions based on his or on any other "authority." I just brought him up because he VERY closely corroborates my own conclusions about CD, which pretty much blows up dog's claim that my science is weak

Stephen Jones is a world-class quack. His record and his "science" speak for themselves. As for the rest of the 9-11 Politics leadership, they just doesn't know what they're talking about. This is not a subject everybody has a good head for, even if they're smart, and in any case these guys are WAY more interested in POLITICAL agendas than in the truth of what happened that day, I promise you.

They're essentially politicians. Nobody has more contempt for Truth than a politician

I'm dismayed to see the entire movement make this idea their main battle engine. I'm telling you this is a grave mistake. Whatever credibility 9-11 Truth might have had among serious scientists and engineers before, this is closing that door forever. Half of that damage has been done just by Stephen Jones attaching his notorious name to the movement.

The towers don't have to have been blown up, dammit! The planes themselves causing the collapses doesn't change anything for LIHOP or MIHOP. The whole movement has been diverted into this one stupid issue, and it's a sewer of bullshit

I'm done with you for now. Punk. I'll look you up in another ten years so I can grind your face in what you did to a movement that could have been more than a pile of dead-end bullshit

But I would like to 'meat' you later.
Health insurance all paid up, huh?

well while it's pretty clear about WTC-7 the main problem with 1 & 2 is that the evidence was wisked away and the investigation was a "half-baked farce" as the fire department put it

Since there's not enough data to determine what happened (this was intentional to make people waste years trying to figure it out and polarize us - divide & conquer while questions that could be answered (like the put options) are quietly buried

But then again we don't have to agree on everything - the world would be pretty boring if we did


Sheepdog isn't a punk BTW - he's old, ~ 50 or so, extremely paranoid and loves flake subjects like "ENMOD", "HAARP" and "chemtrails"

you shouldn't expect to hold a conversation with him since at any point or turn in a discussion he'll fly into a tantrum where anyone who disagrees with him instantly becomes an agent and/or the same person "out to get him"

While I and other's have posted pictures of ourselves and where we live, have emailed IMC's with info to try to become more involved & trusted and are capable of saying sorry and being wrong sheepdog has done done of these things

And if you ask him why he'll fall back on the 'ol paranoia-for-all-occasions reasoning and at best post pictures of - sheepdogs (actual)

Apparently he was abused as a child by his father and has very serious issues regarding trust and forming normal relationships according to what he's claimed in the past at least. while he may prefer to say it in more enamoring terms this is basicly what he's said...

It's all a matter of "kill or be killed" and "shoot first and ask questions later" type of mindset

I'd hate to be his neighbor...


Our neighbors are pretty nice - they're Vietnamese - very nice, polite & quiet, very respectful..
We also have a neighbor in the back apartment who's having trouble with drinking and keeping his head above water so we've been helping him out - we're trying to get people who move in back there to hang around longer insted of only staying a few month's then leaving as has been happening so far..

The neighbors gave us a huge rooster which we built a cage for - here's the pictures ;

http://rexit2.org/keli/mirror/photo08/index.html

and the new cage

http://rexit2.org/keli/mirror/photo04/index.html

I operate a pirate radio station which plays classic rock, all the details here ;

http://rexit2.org/keli/about/index.html

and some close-up's of the antenna here ;

http://rexit2.org/keli/mirror/photo03/index.html
(scroll down a bit)

I wanted to know if you're in this area, if so you can pick up the signal, covers most of town..

feel free to e-mail me for further details -

keli1041fm@yahoo.com

No one in their right mind would post personal information to you rabid weasels. Or visit your web sites.
But you still are very fond of lying and w/o evidence and we should not believe a single word from a psychoboy who couldn't find his ass with both hands.
Waiting for EVIDENCE of your Whizz like pronouncements.

it's not "my" website - it's a commercial hosting service.

I have no direct access to it - I have to FTP the website files to it. There's nothing there - no javascript, no cookies - nothing

just plain-jane HTML

see - your paranoia serves as a cover for any situation to get out of doing anything

I'm sorry, I've been wrong sometimes

let's see you say that..

see? I erred again.
Not about you though, and you're dancing again.

Oh, Punk, *don't* go there

There wouldn't be any swinging dick contest, nor would health insurance be an issue

You would have to kill me with maximum haste

sheepdog's pretty whimpy - and actually you're right, he *is* a punk - the wayback machine has his number

whoops - I just checked - they *used* to - he's deleted the picture but IMC still has it -

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/2005/06/billder.jpgprlcu5.jpg

I'm also a radio enthusiast. Shortwave is my bag. If you've never checked it out, you should. It's a direct uncensored pipeline to what pariah states like Cuba (6,000 kHz) and Iran (7,253 kHz) have to say

I'm also a chicken owner. Chickens are great fun to have around. If you get one of the older semi-wild breeds (e.g., Silver Phoenix) they're a LOT smarter than they're reputed to be. I must say, rooster's are not my favorite.

I'll be dropping you a line. Since 'dog is trying to manipulate me into shying away, I figure you must be four-square

To the twisted freak we know as Smash the left.
A very few have tried. They lost.
Yes I'm OLD. Something you may never be able to say considering the alternative. Still can cripple you just from reading your crap. With one hand.
Don't mess with old people.

yeah I listen to radio Havana and the atomic clock sometimes - have a small shortwave radio sitting here on the work table..

We ended up with that rooster because a friend of the neighbors had 2 of them in a burlap sack when it was really hot a few months ago and one was dead - this one was nearly dead so we put him in the bathtub and sprayed him with cool water and gave him some special bird food we make for the other birds

(4 Blue Jays, 2 Robins and a Starling)

I have about a dozen Pigeons too including 2 really tame ones..

We're in town so we're not really supposed to have livestock but 1 rooster doesn't really matter.. The neighbor's said they're going to get a hen for him but he's so big I wonder what hen would be big enough for him. It's starting to turn cold here so we're about to winterize his cage - add a small heater to keep his water bowl from freezing and heat his box, close
it in more & add a flap. maybe add a layer of gravel or sand because that part of the yard tends to flood in heavy rain too..
I've used his crowing as part of a station jingle "good morning good morning from rock FM" too

I didn't want to state publicly the location so I'm looking forward to hearing from you - the yahoo email isn't my main one anymore, I have a "real" e-mail account along with the hosting service this and the Arkansas IMC knows about.. - the yahoo is pretty much a throw-away account at this point - spam is coming in on it lately

if you're in range (and like rock) it will be cool - you'll be the first IMC person on here to actually receive the signal that I know of since there is no IMC in this town and the town where the IMC is has little activity regarding radio (there's sorta sometimes a station there that transmits on 88.1 as I recall only for a matter of hours on weekends occasionally - I've been on the air continuously for over 8 years here, though I used to be on 90.7 for the first 3 years)

THIS IS WHO THE ZIONIST PROPAGANDA NUTS REALLY ARE
by shetizdayen israel Wednesday, Jul. 19, 2006 at 2:02 PM

TAKE A LOOK AT HOW THESE FROTHING AT THE MOUTH RIGHT WING LUNATIC NUTS LOSE IT WHEN NO ONE WILL BELIEVE THEIR ZIONIST LIES. FUCK ALL FIVE OF YOU NUTCASES. HERE IS WHO YOU ARE. TRUTH IS NOT ON YOUR SIDE.

Zionists lie and threaten because they have to, history is not on their side. Neither is truth

See! HIm and his frothing at the mouth dunce-cap crew have plenty of little quips. In fact, here's some of their little zionest-I'm having a meltdown quips:

SchtarkerYid
by JA, Exactly when and where? Thursday, Jul. 13, 2006 at 11:14 AM

JA, Exactly when and where can I find you on the streets of Berkeley passing out candy? I'll meet you there. I have some new toys that I'd like to show you.
SchtarkerYid
by Its just a matter of time now Thursday, Jul. 13, 2006 at 11:09 AM

Its just a matter of time now. The crazed Islamic supremicists and their appologists have, once again attacked Israel, essentially demanding war. Israel has no choice but to fight this new war with devastating effectiveness. After that, the shattered smoking ruins of Hamas and Hezbollah may one day wish to discuss peace. HaShem will deliver the enemies of Israel into the hands of the students of his Torah.

On the decline of
by self-righteousness Thursday, Jul. 13, 2006 at 8:07 AM

Sigh. Of course, SJ, if JA were to die, I'd pass out candy on the streets of Berkeley. (Although in his case, fruits and nuts might be more approrpriate)

Chazack, chazack v'nit chazack.

Het lunch boy
by Scapegoated Jew Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 4:48 PM

Hopefully the banker you met with today won't approve your loan. Maybe only a rough forceful rape by another man, possibly a whitey, will straighten your perversions out.
You're enjoying your copy of the last Der Stuermer issue on your desk?

Just wondering

He might be better at German than me but he sucks when it comes to the JFK assassination and 9-11
A moral coward who fears his protection will be withdrawn and he would be thrown to the dogs when his limited use expires.

There are a lot of phony gate keepers posing as 'the opposition and the good guys'
Right?

not only has it got you spamming chemtrails on any IMC you can get by with doing it to, it turns you into a hostile self-alienating useless distraction

I've provided the links that show pictures of everything I'm talking about - but nooooo let's just put our hands over our eyes and scream

Your powers of observation have taken a real dive if you can't tell the difference between TW's writings and mine

we don't even agree on WTC 1 & 2 for example but to you there's no difference since all you see is *what you want to see* which is the world as it revolves around you

maybe the chemtrails *have* taken a toll as agents stalk you driving around and aircraft "just barely miss you" with their "lethal aerosols" as they try to "take you out" and "control your mind"

I guess they have :)


re: "lunchbox"

no - I'm hex, always have been *I have never posted as anyone else*, this and the Arkansas IMC are aware of my personal details - they have my private e-mail, real name, location and radio station details - they know *exactly* where the station is..

all these sock puppets and games with the different nicks is BS and you will not see this happening on the Arkansas IMC as I am *registered* there and no one can spoof me

I'm hoping this IMC will impliment this feature too which is why I'm here..

hey, I got an idea!
Why doesn't 'TW' or right hemisphere, have a discussion with 'Hex', or left hemisphere, about the visual evidence which actually does have measurable metrics concerning color/heat light data and determine the possibility of THERMITE having been used to cut various multiple points on the WTC 1& 2 immediately before the 'global collapse' of each structure? blink blink...
here's a link that was provided to show evidence of CHUNCKY incandescent material flowing from the corner of the building! blink blink...
Can you guess what this material is any how it could have produced by any known process? blink blink...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite
like aircraft fuel or damp jute and nylon carpets in a low temp fire as supported by the presence of people standing by these 'raging fires'?

I love a good romp.

sheepdog you're going to shit when you see pictures of us as two different people

*I've already linked to mine* - http://rexit2.org/keli/mirror/photo04/Photo020.jpg

but wait ! I know - photoshop - of course


thermite - too slow, no explosions, the columns were vertical...

cutting charges - perfect for the job - used in WTC-7 too, make explosions that witnesses heard


do you believe everything some flake tells you ?


the carpets - charcoal, too slow, fire was oxygen starved, would need widespread infernal conditions substained for many hours to even think about weakening such large/thick steel columns

firemen reported fires were almost out, pictures of people standing in entry holes

buildings fell at free-fall rate, radio/TV tower started falling *first* - was directly tied to central core..

WTC-7 did likewise - penthouse started falling first - also fell at free-fall rate


the thermite issue is just yet another distraction for the easyly distracted

are you easyly distracted ?

what is this?

"thermite - too slow, no explosions, the columns were vertical.."

Is that some kind of tech talk or is it a rap line?
These were not the little thermite in flower pot demos.
These most likely [ well duh ] were inside the building and breached the outer surface so the true center of reaction was not visible and only the by-products were evident.

Again, weak.

"Chomsky bites me"

he does ?


whatever you say there - you watch a video and you're an expert

I've only made thermite, made fireworks, flash powder, and did experiments with these materials, only used cutting torches, only made explosions

what would I know ?

'what do I know' good question.

I did all that shit in the scouts. So what?
The town of Altadena should be glad they're still there. And my older brothers were much worse.
Still have not provided anything but your peculiar brand of distraction to the following comment :
ahem.

wait for it.

here it is




ahem...
what about the visual evidence which actually does have measurable metrics concerning color/heat light data and determine the possibility of THERMITE having been used to cut various multiple points on the WTC 1& 2 immediately before the 'global collapse' of each structure? blink blink...
here's a link that was provided to show evidence of CHUNCKY incandescent material flowing from the corner of the building! blink blink...
Can you guess what this material is any how it could have produced by any known process? blink blink...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite
like aircraft fuel or damp jute and nylon carpets in a low temp fire as supported by the presence of people standing by these 'raging fires'?

here just answer this. We don't want you confused again.

Can you guess what this material is any how it could have produced by any known process? .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite

Rain coat on.

I saved it, loaded it into VLC and converted it to mpeg

but anyway it appears to be aluminium melting & burning, which would be expected from the fire right above it

(I've burnt aluminium and that's what it burns like - thermite reacts *much hotter* and iron is part of it's intended use since iron it'self burns along with it - *white hot* with a hell of alot of sparks due to the release of gasses in the molten metal - this does not appear to be thermite or iron/steel, (it's not hot enough) but at that distance/with that low quality of video no one can say what it is for sure - *chemical analysis is required* and the evidence was taken away)

also that's just a tiny part of the whole structure and *very far away from the central core where the real load bearing is*

like I said - a distraction for the easyly distracted

and at what color was it [ the molten material not the flame ] when it began to burn?
I contend that if it was aluminum, it would be burning at that temperature and the visible by products would be visible as a smoke signature during the incandescent portion of its fall..

your turn.

The Brits had to abandon aluminium hulls due to fires.
- The confusion is related to the US and British Navies abandoning aluminium after several fires in the 1970s involving ships that had aluminium superstructures-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sheffield_(D80)

see that? I fucked that up totally.
I meant superstructures.
Aluminium burns. It's an 'ium' metal.

"you burnt aluminium ? / what color was it [ the molten material not the flame ] when it began to burn?"

It doesn't burn easyly but when it does, it starts burning at the edges and kinda "puffs" with oxide which encrusts it.

Magnesium and Aluminium/Magnesium alloys burn much better - they both give off a characteristic white smoke (oxide particles)

Lead also burns BTW - again at red/orange heat, also crusts and gives off oxide smoke

The main thing about Aluminium is that when it's freshly exposed to air and especially finely divided it can burn much easyer then

I've used both Aluminium and Magnesium powders and "filings" (the dust from sawing Magnesium rod) to make flash powder

You claimed to make flash powder in the "boyscouts" however it requires Potassium or Sodium Chlorate which is a very dangerous compound - they wouldn't let kids play with it since it can start combusting spontaneously in contact with organic material - I only had access to it in the lab and took a big risk carrying some home in a paper towel - it could have started burning in my pocket !

I used to make fireworks *every year*, along with gunpowder, fuse cord and nitrocellulose string (I had the required concentrated nitric and sulfuric acids)

I made different types of thermite - some Aluminium based some Iron oxide based and in every case it threw a hell of a lot of sparks - *white hot sparks*

Thermite *always reacts white hot* because it's self-contained in a small area and there's *nothing to limit the temperature* - other than material being ejected which is why it throws sparks and splatters to bad - this violent ejection of material is the only thing that keeps it from blowing up - mildly exploding which it does do sometimes - I've had it happen and start little fires everywhere over a 30-40' area more than once

Thermite tends to react out of control and splatter everywhere - it's difficult to control and contain

I did some analysis of the footage and noticed a few things - I took temp readings (as well as possible) and noticed the molten material dripping is hotter than the source - exactly opposite of thermite

something else I noticed is what appears to be electrical arcing and both sides of the source - it appears to an electrical short melting some Aluminium
from what I can tell..

here's the detail showing the color probe results and here's a link to the footage slowed down to 1/3'rd

notice the *electrical arcing* mostly to the left and a bit to the right as well..


http://rexit2.org/keli/one_third.mpg

I bought the potassium nitrate from the pharmacy.

Great stuff. Try a 50/50 mix of ground sugar [powdered is best ] and saltpeter for a solid rocket fuel. Real stable w/lots of gas w/little fouling.
I made my casings with rolled paper and glue with plaster o paris nozzle.
Gun powder components are harder to measure correctly 'in the field'. and mix. Oh well, I'm very LUCKY to have my eyes and fingers, Still.
Back to arcing and burning aluminium ...

what?

The material coming down *wasn't burning* it * wasn't aluminium*.There wasn't a smoke trail. It was hot but stable.

That's all I'm trying to point out. It's necessary to focus sometimes and we should consider this as iron and not aluminium.
sheeesh.

"It's necessary to focus sometimes"



"I bought the potassium nitrate"


*Chlorate* - big big difference - try buying *that* anywhere..

"The material coming down *wasn't burning* it * wasn't aluminium*.There wasn't a smoke trail. It was hot but stable*


I refered to it as MELT... and the smoke was blowing IN (to the building) but that's the point - thermite is very UNSTABLE and throws sparks - EJECTS globs in all directions - sideways and UP included


Always at white heat - this isn't that hot, it's not even hot enough for steel much less a thermite reaction..

it's consistant with electral arching melting Aluminium and there ARE electrical arcs on both sides of it

That's weak.
'thermite is very UNSTABLE and throws sparks - EJECTS globs in all directions - sideways and UP included'
This is wrong because it's positioned INSIDE the building.
Where you can't see it.
check out this page on thermite.
http://www.amazingrust.com/Experiments/how_to/Thermite_pics-videos.html

potassium chlorate?
I said I still have my eyes and fingers.
Don't try this at home, kids..
1. Iron not aluminium was flowing because of the reaction it would have in an oxygen environment at that temperature.
Now what is this nonsense about electric arcs for crying out loud.

Respond w/o your asinine graphic, please.

It's electrical arching melting Aluminium

I can clearly see the electrical arcs in three places and can clearly see the Aluminium burning and making white oxide ash as it falls - some of it is falling at less than red heat and bursting into white oxide combustion as it falls which is exactly what Aluminium does..

Not thermite and not steel..

it's electrical and Aluminium (could be lead or zinc as well but not steel - steel doesn't flow at less than red heat or combust into white oxide)

That's even more of a reason to discount the 'aluminum' theory because we have two conditions of ignition for aluminium. Heat and even higher heat in the 'arcs'.

did you type this?
'some of it is falling at less than red heat and bursting into white oxide combustion as it falls which is exactly what Aluminium does.. '
you know, the term 'bursting' is interesting.

what exactly do you mean?

They cooled as they fell, leaving no characteristic smoke signature as they fell, if they had been burning.

What are you saying? You have to support these ideas with real world physics.

And it's as true of 9-11 as it is of this interpersonal stuff. There's no possibility of intellectual rigor with a personality like this. "Facts" and bits of scientific trivia are for one thing: to be picked selectively and lined up differently from one argument to the next based on what's needed to WIN a given argument

Truth? hahaha Fuck truth! Truth is for naive kids

Winning!! Now THAT is the high calling!

"do you believe everything some flake tells you ?"

If it supports his obsession to WIN a given argument at a given moment, of course! Inasmuch as the word 'belief' can be applied to his mental process, that is. It's not quite the same as what the dictionary says

Unfortunately, Sheepdog isn't a special case AT ALL. A great many Westerners are like this. It's not even a thing they consciously choose to do or control; they apparently slide outta momma's fish-hole hardwired for it and it's impossible for them to even achieve awareness that this is what they're like. When it comes to Truth, they're born hopelessly lost. Their tuner's broke.

It's a heritable condition, I think, that goes back through every link of our "civilized" lineage, which goes a long way toward explaining why we're so outstandingly evil among the world's people, as history -- present history most of all -- clearly reveals. These are defining mental habits of all criminals, both the ones in the prisons AND the ones in the gated communities. The "Great Cities" (i.e. Great rat-scrabbling Hells) of Europe were caldrons of selection that bred us to be this way.

Native American philosophy holds an equally powerful and resonant explanation: cities are uniquely suited to rat-like behavior, and Western *congenital_urbanites* are people of the Rat Totem

Look at 'dog's picture. He even LOOKS like a rat! I'm stone-cold serious.

If the West's psychological "science" were for real (instead of being stacked with the same personality disorder) this '"Truth" is whatever I want' psychology would be a formally described mental disease.

Jim Fetzer's got it REEEEEEEEEEL bad! So does Alex Jones. So do a great many other leaders of the 9-11 "Truth" movement.

These people are not committed to truth as an ideal. They're *POLITICIANS*. The second type is the exact polar opposite of the first -- truly consummate rats

I think the 9-11 "Truth" movement is too important to be such peoples' plaything. First of all their personalities are fundamentally at odds with its alleged purpose: chasing the track of truth is an extremely demanding mental exercise in which they have absolutely no interest, to the point of not comprehending its most basic meanings. Second, if they want to translate it into a form of POLITICS (which they already have), they are going to fucking lose because all the world-class heavyweight champeens of politics are with the opposition.

Truth is a cosmic force. It has the power to crush politics. These people are never going to make that happen

here you can see all 3 electrical arcs, then see the one on the left get really bright for A FRACTION OF A SECOND (which only electrical arcing does) then you see a glob that just fell only which was only barely glowing that BURSTS INTO COMBUSTION LEAVING A TRAIL OF ***WHITE OXIDE*** which only Aluminium, Zinc or lead does - ***STEEL DOES NOT DO THIS***

when you look at the motion video you can see it's *FLICKERING*..

someone's cranky and out of arguments .

'Unfortunately, Sheepdog isn't a special case AT ALL. A great many Westerners are like this. It's not even a thing they consciously choose to do or control; they apparently slide outta momma's fish-hole hardwired for it and it's impossible for them to even achieve awareness that this is what they're like. When it comes to Truth, they're born hopelessly lost. Their tuner's broke.'

'Now what does that have to do with reactive burning [ or lack of same] aluminium?
Sheeesh. Pay attention.

this only barely glowing glob fell and burst into white oxide ash which is *exactly* what Aluminium does

steel/iron does not make white oxide - it makes black oxide

And you are supporting an electric arc theory?
Very good.
Buts that's a side issue from aluminium which is reactive at that heat light, in air.
And would burn.
And it wasn't.
It's not aluminium. Forget the aluminium.

You have never seen a metal fire, apparently.
You visuals are weak.

to illustrate that although a person can focus it can also be like tunnel vision - he'll see only what he wants to see

fortunately these stills, the greatly enhanced mpg I made and the explaination of what I've determined will benefit other's with open minds

once sheepdog's made up his mind about something nothing will ever change it - no evidence no pictures data or analysis will sway him in the least

he see's only what he want's to see - he even accuses several different people of both sexes living in different places - even overseas - with different personalities and different knowledge and abilities of being some ghost figure who becomes any/everyone who simply disagrees with him

I agree he only makes real activists look bad but think since his dysfunction is so blindingly obvious that no serious activist even pays any mind to it

he effectively spams the newswire with paranoia soaked BS - one flake subject after another - and always places the burden of proof on everyone else then no matter what you show him he dismisses it all anyway

I almost wish we were all flakes too then he would automaticly blindly shallow anything we said - which is exactly what he does with the people he get's his flake shit from - then he posts it on here for attention

the only attention he gets as in the flake world he's just one of many and doesn't stand out - they're all like that

the "service" he provides the movement is simply a bad example of what not to be like and is proof of how tolerant we are - even flakes have a place and standing it seems

but again at least we can deconstruct and clairify some things some of the time - the footage clearly shows electrical arcing and Aluminium combusting with white oxide so it lays this thermite BS to rest

trimming the nonsense away again-

'the footage clearly shows electrical arcing and Aluminium combusting with white oxide '
well dear readers, is that what you see on the provided?
exhibit A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite
judge for yourself.
Does this look like burning material or cooling material without any smoke trails from any rapid chemical reaction 'bursting' or otherwise.
[?]
Who writes your stuff, do you, all by yourself?

New York policemen and firemen *especially* are knuckle-dragging troglodytes whose INTERPRETIVE OPINIONS of what they witness should not be given undue weight. Ergo we have orange-hot steel in the rubble becoming "pools of molten steel" and jolts and booming noises inside the towers becoming "explosions."

If some gangly barefoot yokel with no teeth wearing nothing but overalls were to share these observations in his best country dumb-ass accent, would you take his word as gospel? Rural America is not the only home of horrifying ignorance. New York has MORE than its share

well seismic instruments don't lie and neither do satellite infrared images

several seismographs recorded high explosive signatures just as the buildings free-fell

Satellite images recorded the sites were extremely hot (off the scale) for weeks after the buildings imploded while temperature probe readings into the rubble showed thousands of degrees


so while people may exaggerate instrument measurements don't...


also with WTC-7 many of the aspects and events match - the penthouse on the roof tied to the central core started falling first just as the radio/TV tower on WTC-1 did

all three buildings fell into their own footprints as only demolition can do, all three fell at free-fall speed - there wasn't time by far for any "pancake effect"

large pieces of steel beams were ejected out up to hundreds of feet outward and while one can claim the firemen exaggerated the explosions they were reporting to dispatch
on their radios that the fires were nearly out - recently released under FIOA tapes of the fireground and tactical channels confirm this

external videos show the volume and character of smoke - it was greatly reduced at the time of the implosions and was black - oxygen starved which is not a high heat
widespread substained fire needed to weaken the central columns which in any case would have been left standing regardless - at least some of the 47 in each building
closely coupled as a group in box formations - some of the thickest and strongest steel columns ever made

while much thinner and weaker beams and columns have always withstood even the fiercest fires with only at worst slight buckling

no steel frame building has ever collasped from fire - either before or since, even full infernals lasting days where the entire building was engulfed with much thinner/weaker steel..

anymore.
Now that that's settled, actually I believe the seismic anomalies occurred before each strike, real time.

were to post on this forum we would suspect it to be TW/Hex but certainly not trained fire fighters. Fire fighters have to have brains to stay alive.
Not so for all of us apparently.

well sheepdog you'll notice that I didn't actually place the picture on here - only linked to it

also I didn't comment about it when TW did because it's not important - now according to Becky TW is there in California, not here at all (she has reason to keep up on these things - the masada 2000 shit list)

my interest begins and ends where my name comes up

now while refusing to look at the evidence shoved right under your nose http://rexit2.org/keli/ (boy is that getting old) you still cling to equating whomever/whatever you please to support the idea that
anyone who disagrees with you in any way or capacity are all rolled into a single big ball with a sticker labled "government agent" slapped on it

this enormous ball which just keeps growing - it's already a dozen people tall - is rolling around stalking you to squash you because...

- you're so invaluable to the cause of social justice seeing as you do so much in it's service

...they wouldn't run into burning buildings for a living just to show everybody how big their balls are. These aren't volunteers -- we're not talking 'community involvement.' What we have here is a *career choice*. whoa. Real bridge & tunnel Joey Buttafuoco 'fuggedaboudit' types, as in: yoo-neekly stoopit. Or certifiable pyromaniacs. I'm a blue collar hero myself, dog, but I still know STUPID when I see it. Most people in this mental class from Anywhere USA go into the military, but Noo Yawkahs this stoopit have other oppahtooniddies, see.

You need to change your nick to 'TW's bitch-dog'

You sure act like one.

Still waiting for some creditable evidence to support your secret radio station fantasy.
Like a news clipping about it.

And I told you any sites you recommend that aren't readily used, are suspect. Bite me. Like you once said a naked browser is vulnerable.

Even though you already know what I look like and where I live. You even know where I work and what I do for a living. heh heh
aside from the usual crap out off your huge asshole, what have you said that I haven't reduced to absurdity, like arcs, bursting oxidation and dead guys.
Although I do agree about the explosive effects and heavy steel debris distribution from the blast front, evident in the WTC 1&2 demolitions.

"all three buildings fell into their own footprints as only demolition can do"

Look, hex, this is an old CD-'Borg talking point that is just plain WRONG

1) the towers' collapses were wildly messy and did massive damage to surrounding buildings, many of which had to be demolished as a result

2) Are you saying that when such buildings fail for some reason other than explosive demolition, that they do so in a radically different way? Do they fall OVER like a tree, maybe? Should the top of the south tower have fallen OVER onto other buildings, leaving the rest of the tower intact? Please explain

Well they also go to save people's lives - to pull people out

it seems pretty disrespectful of the dead to me, to say what their character and
motivations are when you don't know them personally considering that at least to
some extent they risk their lives to rescue people

also none of the issues regarding instrument measurements or the similarities between
WTC-7 and 2 and especially 1 have been addressed, while the character of dead people
seems like a distraction


sheepdog I'm surprised

you mean to say there's evidence you won't look at ?

that's shocking !

the denial thought process is alive and well - at least you have that

"wildly messy and did massive damage to surrounding buildings"

well that's a subjective evauation - I have hundreds of highly detailed high resolution photographs taken of the surrounding buildings which show surprisingly little damage

also satellite images which likewise show very well defined footprints while satellite images
of other skyscrapers that have collasped are as you characterized - messy

if you were to place all the messy collaspes into one category and the clean footprint collaspses into another, when factoring in the height and winds in the case of hurricanes, the WTC buildings would fall well within the clean footprint category

most importantly WTC 7 and 1 & 2 are since other than the heights, the winds are the same

this is a minor point when compared to the other issues I've enumerated above which I would like you to explain likewise

keeping in mind there's no requirement that we fall into lockstep agreement _or else_ as there are with fanatics

1) I've laid eyes on this bunch in person. Therefore I know them 15,000 times better than you. That's what I'm speaking from. "Knuckle-dragging troglodytes" is not REMOTELY unfair. They behave like PIGS, continuously, much more so than cops, who have had to clean up their act for PR's sake. When they "save people's lives," they probably want $1,000 a pop fom the men and at least a little stinky-finger from the women. The kids? If they don't give head, fuck em! No, I'm NOT kidding. Firemen are some of the hardest-core old-timiest New Yorkers I've seen, and hardcore old-time New Yorkers have to be seen to be believed. They're the most corrupt scum on earth. All the old stories never stopped being true, they just got strangled off somehow (PR capital of the world...). Compared to anywhere else in the US, New York might as well be on a different planet.

2) Their anecdotal testimony is being quoted as if they actually know what they're talking about, and I'm telling you they're virulent anti-intellectual bumpkins, Noo Yawk -style

and control the parameters of your discussion until you err ...
And there are many pertinent ones about 9-11 & Chomsky, gate keeping by apparent friendly but very phony progressives and other related topics of that perswasion. I have to admit one thing and that's the 'roman candle up its ass' comment was a great simile. In the memory of that amusingly graphic mental picture, I'll say,go for it.

"I have hundreds of highly detailed high resolution photographs taken of the surrounding buildings which show surprisingly little damage"

So how come so many of them were GONE two years later?

I lived in the New York area myself - I used to transmit there and go to meetings and visit friends in the city, used to receive and decode select TV on ch.60 & 68 from the tower on WTC-1 which is where & how I developed my first descrambler

I have some experience with firemen having dealt with them directly due to 3 fires I was involved in - which more than the average person

the 15,000 figure is both hyperbolic and unsupported, mostly as you don't know what my background and experience is, and again does not address the issues I've raised other than "firemen reported hearing explosions"

and they aren't the only ones - there's a handful of ordinary people who escaped, who did as well..

are we going to treated to the demonization of them too ?



so the seismic readings, the satellite infrared readings and the temperature probe readings are -

wrong ?

I'll just agree not to agree

I remembered there was a flipside to the shortwave picture: you can also get the lowdown on what US imperialism is STILL spewing at the rest of the world. Voice of America to Africa is a good example of how VOA continues to do what it's always done for 60+ years: arrogantly agitate to overthrow / destabilize any national leader the US Empire doesn't like. Radio netherlands USED to be a reliable source of moderate / left / peacenik commentary, but in the past year or so they've turned into one of the most blatant hasbarah mouthpieces on earth. The Kosher Nostra must have offered them "a deal they couldn't refuse"

Reporter for USA Today stated that the FBI believed that bombs in the buildings brought the buildings down


MSNBC reporter stated that police had found a suspicious device "and they fear it could be something that might lead to another explosion" and the police officials believe "that one of the explosions at the world trade center . . . may have been caused by a van that was parked in the building that may have had some kind of explosive device in it, so their fear is that there may have been explosive devices planted either in the building or in the adjacent area"


Paramedic said "at first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear pop pop pop pop pop -- thats exactly what because thought it was"



Police officer noted "People were saying, 'There’s another one and another one.' I heard reports of secondary bomb explosions



Officer in the New Jersey Fire Police Department who was previously a sergeant in the U.S. Army, said about the south tower: “[I]t sounded like bombs going off. That's when the explosions happened. . . . I knew something was going to happen. . . . It started to get dark, then all of a sudden there was this massive explosion.”

Then, discussing her experiences during the collapse of the north tower, she said: “[There was] another explosion. That sent me and the two firefighters down the stairs. . . . I can't tell you how many times I got banged around. Each one of those explosions picked me up and threw me. . . . There was another explosion, and I got thrown with two firefighters out onto the street.”




Dan Rather said that collapse was "reminiscent of those pictures we've all seen [when]a building was deliberately destroyed by well-placed dynamite to knock it down" (CNN's Aaron Brown and a Fox News reporter also made similar comments)




British newspaper stated "some eyewitnesses reported hearing another explosion just before the structure crumbled. Police said that it looked almost like a 'planned implosion' "



One ABC reporter stated it looked like a controlled demolition; another ABC reporter stated "anyone who has ever watched a building being demolished on purpose knows that if you're going to do this you have to get at the under-infrastructure of the building to bring it down"




A reporter for WNYC radio said "The reporters were trying to figure out what had happened. We were thinking bombs had brought the buildings down"



A Wall Street Journal reporter said "I heard this metallic roar, looked up and saw what I thought was just a peculiar site of individual floors, one after the other exploding outward. I thought to myself, "My God, they’re going to bring the building down." And they, whoever they are, HAD SET CHARGES . . . . I saw the explosions"




A facilities manager in the north tower "was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons"



Moreover, there is evidence that substantial explosions occurred well BELOW the area impacted by the planes, and -- according to some witnesses -- they occurred BEFORE the plane had hit:

9/11 hero, who was the last person out of the north tower, said that there was a massive explosion in the North Tower BEFORE the plane hit



Similarly, employee of an insurance company in south tower heard an explosion from BELOW the impact of the airplane, an "exploding sound" shook the building, a tornado of hot air, smoke and ceiling tiles and bits of drywall came flying UP the stairwell, and the wall split from the bottom UP



Paramedic "heard ground level explosions"



Detective for the Port Authority reported, long before the collapse of the tower,"When we reached the 15th floor, the building began to vibrate and shake. I heard loud explosions and rumblings in the background. The stairwell shifted and gave out a large metal on metal groan. The stairwell then twisted back into place with another loud groan. The lights went out. At that point the stairwell became filled with smoke and dust."



World trade center employee stated "the bottom of our building was blown out"



BBC reporter stated "Then, an hour later, we had that big explosion, from much much lower [well below the plane impact]. I don't know what on earth caused that".



Janitor who worked in the basement of north tower witnessed explosion in basement at around the same time the plane hit far above


CBS News reporter stated "All of a sudden I heard a roar and I saw one of the towers blow ... I saw from street level as though it exploded up, a giant rolling ball of flame...". (same reporter stated "I hear simultaneously this roar and see what appears to be a gigantic fireball rising up at ground level . . . I remember seeing this giant ball of fire come out of the earth as I heard this roar"


Worker in one of the twin towers discusses explosion on the 8th floor




Another worker in the twin towers states "when we get to the lobby, there was this big explosion"



Stationary engineer who worked in world trade center one described tremendous damage in the basement of the building more consistent in nature and timing with a bomb than with damage from an airplane


Construction worker discusses explosions in the sub-basement of tower 1; same worker talks about explosions in the basements of tower 2



Paramedic captain stated "somewhere around the middle of the world trade center there was this orange and red flash coming out initially it was just one flash then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode the popping sound and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as could see these popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger going both up and down and then all around the building"



MSNBC reporter stated "I heard a second explosion ... And then a fire marshal came in and said we had to leave, because if there was a third explosion this building might not last". The same reporter stated that the force of the explosion overturned cars and set them on fire




Paramedic said “Shortly before the first tower came down, I remember feeling the ground shaking. I heard a terrible noise, and then debris just started flying everywhere. People started running"


Same paramedic stated "by the time the debris settled from the first collapse we started to walk back east towards west street and few minutes later – really don’t remember the time frames because we were so busy in trying to account for who was in the staging area and who wasn’t we basically had the same thing the ground shook again and we heard another terrible noise and the next think we knew the second tower was coming down and again we were running for our lives"

"...the 'roman candle up its ass' comment was a great simile."

Thanks

Look, hex, what are you doing? You said "let's not be fanatics." I said "I'll agree to disagree," which means (didn't think this needed explaining) "okay, let's drop it then."

You're not dropping it. Instead you're hitting me with the exact thing I said I didn't trust: the untrained opinions of Brooklyn Joe Sixpack whose "credential" is a little tin shield that says "FDNY rank & file Fireschlub badge no. nnnnnn" ....

This page (which looks like your source) starts out saying it all:

http://www.911proof.com/11.html
"CREDIBLE SOURCES SUCH AS NEW YORK FIREFIGHTERS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS"

"Credible??" Teabag my fat nappy balls, "credible!"

If you just gotta hit me with more CD bullshit, could you make it something that doesn't trade on my NONEXISTENT Pavlovian knee-jerk respect for these donut-brains?

If they were REALLY heroes, they'd announce a wildcat strike by catching the next train to Atlantic City right after throwing Molotov cocktails into every building in New York. Meanwhile the cops would be riding elevators to every penthouse and corner office to "evacuate" them -- feet first. This would be the world's most joyous day since 10,000 years ago, when the Big Mistake first reared its head as "Sumer."

If everybody everywhere else had any sense (versus being American) they'd then throw a nationwide "Free At Last!" party and give these guys cherry-popping rights to their first-born daughters

New York is a tick the size of Greenland hanging off the ass of the planet -- and the country. This is most of why the Civil War was really fought

when you posted "let's drop it" I was gathering the statements and didn't even see your post until after I posted myself..

in any case since you said you don't trust the firemen's words I specifically excluded them and insted concentrated on other people like news reporters, ordinary people like construction workers, janitors, paramedics, etc

left out all firemen and almost all policemen except one saying "what people told him" and 1 firewoman

woman

> Brooklyn Joe Sixpack whose "credential" is a little tin shield that says "FDNY rank & file Fireschlub badge no. nnnnnn" ..

joe-ette ?

the mainstream reporters from ABC, CBS, BBC, MSNBC, the Wall Street Jounal, USA Today, Dan Rather, a British Newspaper, WNYC radio

certaintly aren't "Joe sixpack" fire department personel or average everyday (must be wrong too) people either for that matter

So while we not agree about the validity of what they said at least we can agree many different people said it

the ground shook many said

seismograph readings said the ground shook too..

- better get those damn instruments away from that devil brew and drop it...

mainstream reporters ... certaintly aren't "Joe sixpack" [and neither are] fire department personel average or everyday ... people"

Wrong, hex. When it comes to rendering rigorous **technically_meaningful** descriptions of what they observed happening to the buildings, ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ARE GODDAM FUCKING JOE SIXPACKS!!

GRIFFIN AND FETZER ARE BLUSTERING JACKASS JOE SIXPACKS!!

That's my whole point, and you're willfully ignoring it

This is especially true under the circumstances, in which nary a one of them was not experiencing massive emotional trauma at the time. I daresay the first-hand recollections of structural/civil engineers could not be wholly trusted under such circumstances!

The video camera recordings of the collapses are an **infinitely** more valuable record, and they DO NOT corroborate what many of these people are saying.

You know, you're even more of a political maniac about this than sheepdog! Just like him, you keep barfing out this **learned system** of talking points and technical canards that you've brainwashed yourself into believing is absolutely airtight when in fact its bedrock assumptions are BULLSHIT. You never caught this because you were a technical rube vis structures going in (which I wasn't), and now that you're on board 100%, your ego won't ever let you admit the CD 'Borg-Meisters have MADE AN ASS OF YOU.

This noise about seismographs is a perfect example of your weak technical understanding. You're mixing up chickens and eggs left and right here, but the details of this are trivial compared to the **attitude** behind it, which is your complete apathy for intellectual rigor about any of this, which would include being wary of assumptions, generating and seriously considering alternative explanations *on_your_own* while acknowledging certain giant unresolvable voids in your "perfect knowledge."

TRUTH?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!

Truth is at the very bottom of your priority list cuz you're A POLITICAL FANATIC. Like I told 'dog, you need to quit lying to people and rename your movement "9-11 POLITICS." On some level, perhaps not even consciously, you've decided that 9-11 is the key to inciting Americans to struggle free from outright totalitarian governance, and that this end justifies some 'creativity' and 'spin.'

It's that last part that makes my skin crawl. I think your taste for politics and ego over truth and reality displays the REAL root nature of the very problem you THINK you're solving. We could take the neocons down, the Democrats, all of them, and replace them with hex and people hex likes, and then because your heads have all been wired by the same nasty political-liar mutation as theirs ("you gotta know how to *behave*"), you would ultimately become just like them, probably quickly.

It's this unexamined contempt for Truth that is the Real Enemy. It's a madness

the pot calling the keddle black, more demonization, character attacks, screaming, rhetoric, strawmen and hyperbole


I posted just one (1) reply explaining that I didn't see your "drop it" post until I posted the statements that I was busy looking for - careful to exclude the whole groups of people you've already demonized - reporters, construction workers, paramedics, janitors


and now the character assassination has spread to me as well - now I'm a demon too

just like that...

And still no data is being exhanged, discussed or shared


I think this discussion is over

hex: "I posted just one (1) reply explaining that I didn't see your "drop it" post ... and now the character assassination has spread to me as well"

Oh, but that wasn't ALL you said, hex. You then returned to your argument, bringing in new points

"seismograph readings said the ground shook too..

- better get those damn instruments away from that devil brew and drop it..."

So you're saying there's nothing snide -- ad-hominem like -- in that last barb?

You want to keep the argument going? Believe me, I can do that dance

Doesn't play well with others.
Runs with scissors.

We've got to work on your social skills, honey.
If only I had the time.....

and in this culture that's pretty much everybody

How's your assumption that I'm only an asshole to Jews and women holding up these days? Doing just fine, isn't it?

Yeah, you are pretty much an all-around asshole. I guess there is something to be said for consistency.

But you are particuarly bad with Jews and with women, and are worse with Jewish women.
If you didn't plunge straight into attack mode with Hex, you probably would have found much you could agree on.

Damn men. Their entire frame of reference is "Should I fuck it ?" or "Should I kill it?"

Yup, only sexism TOWARD women FROM men is evil.

Sexism toward men from women is SUPER-NEATO-COOL and TRENDY!! Come on girls, join the fun! When this provokes an inevitable backlash, we can bawl "VICTIM!!!!" and rip even more of their balls off with dull pruning shears. It's the perfect political game!

It's exactly like the way only "racism" TOWARD Jews is evil

When us Jews are the rabid baby-stabbing racist monsters, that's our birthright. After all, we're the Chosen Race™.

But then when other groups retaliate over this we get to bawl "oy GOTT, we're being PERSECUTED again, just like with the NAZIS!!!! It's the HOLOCAUST all over again!! Why do people always hate us for NO REASON?!?!?!?!!"

It works every time (at least on these American historical imbeciles).

Isn't that COOL???

> If you didn't plunge straight into attack mode with Hex, you probably would have found much you could agree on.


it's no big deal - this is only one issue.. We do agree on other issues - one's that are clear enough to not get lost in the details about

I find this issue to be too convoluted and TW to be a bit too high-strung to see the benefit outweighing possible bad blood over it. Besides no data is being exchanged anyway so there's little interest for me to begin with. It's more important to cut our losses and agree to disagree and move on to greener pastures - nothing positive would be gained by beating this dead horse so we're letting sleeping dogs lay

> Damn men. Their entire frame of reference is "Should I fuck it ?" or "Should I kill it?"

this sounds vaguely misandrist but maybe it's just me :)

Which point would that be? Could you try to avoid dancing around so you can have it both ways this time (like the shameless political liar that you are)? Note: my POINT was not that I'm an asshole, so don't even go there

"Damn men"
by TW Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 6:37 PM

Yup, only sexism TOWARD women FROM men is evil.

Ok. The last comment was harsh. I'm willing to add "Can I throw it on the fire then eat it?" to the list of generalizations.

It's exactly like the way only "racism" TOWARD Jews is evil
When us Jews are the rabid baby-stabbing racist monsters, that's our birthright. After all, we're the Chosen Race™.

Your words, not mine. I call racism when I see it. I don't tolerate it. Someday we should discuss the rest of the interview with Einstein, btw.

Why do people always hate us for NO REASON?!?!?!?!!"

Einstein had interesting things to say about this. Do you actually want to know?


well maybe a bit high-strung
by hex Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 6:40 PM


I find this issue to be too convoluted and TW to be a bit too high-strung

High Strung? Oh, maybe just a wee bit. I knew I'd never casually invite him over for coffee when he wrote about joyously showering in the arterial blood of his enemies. Its so hard to get out blood stains.

greener pastures - nothing positive would be gained by beating this dead horse so we're letting sleeping dogs lay

Except of course trying to fit in one more adage....

> Damn men. Their entire frame of reference is "Should I fuck it ?" or "Should I kill it?"

this sounds vaguely misandrist but maybe it's just me :)

It was vaguely misandrist, but I've since modified it (see above). Is it better now?


"I'm willing to concede your point"
by TW Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 6:47 PM

Which point would that be? Could you try to avoid dancing around so you can have it both ways this time (like the shameless political liar that you are)?
Note: my POINT was not that I'm an asshole, so don't even go there

Oops. I thought that was your point. Ok, I'll take back my concession.

I mean, don't they?
And they always seem to stay on topic like being about false 'progressives' and the peculiarities of 9-11.

Don't ya think?
Now I wonder how many posts will go on before this one is ever noticed in this one trac topic?

I doubt it

Don't you know its dangerous for the two halves of your split personality to interact directly this way?? Sheesh, you're nuts enough when your alteregoes are ignoring each other!

Rather than change the topic, I'll retreat nicely. I don't understand enough of the hard science involved in this discussion to meaningfully participate

Play nice together boys.

..."Sheepdog" and "Tia" were to get in a real tiff with "each other." I can just picture "Sheepdog" (the right arm) grabbing "Tia" by the throat while "Tia" (the left arm) held a gun to "Sheepdog's" temple. Wow, that could get ugly. (psst, Tia: you want to squeeeeze the trigger. heeheeheehehheeehheheeeheheheee)

Yeah, it's like that for chicks

Oh, but they know how to crochet though! And they have tits (big plus)! There, Tia, I modified my asshole remark. It's better now, right?

> I knew I'd never casually invite him over for coffee when he wrote about joyously showering in the arterial blood of his enemies.

yeah I saw that


and saw it and saw it and saw it

I'd just surrender and try *not* to be an enemy I guess

after all what makes one an enemy to him ? - mouthing off, being snide ? I can deal with not doing that - even just for friendship much less the threat of violence.

it's important to keep things in perspective - intentionally upsetting people for the mere amusement when you are on the same side just isn't worth the hassle


even when you're on the opposite side is it really worth it ?

if so what does that say about - say nonaggressive women ?

maybe the aggression is just bubbling below the surface and some denial is in play

maybe the generalizations are really projections




Re: misandry

> Is it better now?


well the real question is are you better now ? what's important is how you really feel about it, not what my perceptions are..




> I alienate LIARS deliberately / and in this culture that's pretty much everybody

I'm not trying to be intentionally dishonest or willfully disrespectful - it's difficult for people to get their meanings across sometimes in a setting like this - people tend to misconstrue words and attitudes under these conditions

I'm sorry you saw it that way

if saying devil brew intended only as a light hearted poke at the prior comments is too disrespectful, then I'm just sorry period and won't speak in that manner again - we're not enemies and I don't want to be your enemy..


Re: adages

they are useful to provide familiar frames of references and conforting not easyly misconstrued expressions of intent and attitude, but unfortunately they don't seem to facilitate further antagonistic baiting, so I can see why you would take issue with them :)

Sheepdog and Tia are the same person?
Charismatic megafauna and Tia are the same person?
Becky Johnson and Tia are the same person?

Anyone else?

Dang. I'm going to need a bigger house for all my alter-egos, until the nice young men in their clean white coats come to take me away.


TW- even you couldn't believe that Sheep dog and I are one and the same. You are only saying that to be nasty to Sheepdog.

Well, that's understandable. Neither does TW?Hex and if we go back to:
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/09/178626_comment.php#180028
We can see this all kinds of equivocations mock science and pure 'BS was produced to avoid this thermite issue.
And who was knocking who's 'dick' into the dirt? Since you are so unfamiliar with science?
But hey, I still think the false progressive turned attack weasel , is a good theme to keep in mind. Maybe a field guide to moles 'n trolls.

re: not being familiar with science


> Neither does TW?Hex

I am a scientist - but then again you already knew that

skeptic Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 5:12 PM
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/09/180237_comment.php

is knowledgeable enough to qualify as a scientist too

sheepdog however has the education level of a 5'th grader - at best

not even qualified to determine who is or isn't..

"by hex Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 6:09 AM
keli1041fm@yahoo.com

myself I try to stick to facts and avoid flaming as it serves no purpose

try to do research and have citations to back them up, try to stick to the topic of the thread
[?]"

[But the main problem is your huge asshole showing. Sd]

the education level of a 5'th grader is an honest evaluation - many people don't even have that - in science

nothing to be ashamed of...

even if you are, then the operative word is "try" - as no one's perfect and so it allows for some wiggle room

the shame goes further however and hoists up "huge asshole" - definite flaming

so the rules are different for sheepster - he gets to flame all he wants

because he's special and better

Oh, but they know how to crochet though!

Not me. Sigh. I'm a failure at the womanly arts. I can do a running slippery half hitch though- thats almost like crocheting.

And they have tits (big plus)!
There you go, concerning yourselves with the vessel again.
Only in the West are they a big deal. Elsewhere, they are nursing tools. In the developing world- upper thighs are hot.

There, Tia, I modified my asshole remark. It's better now, right?
For you, its mild.


hostilities and friction create sparks and flames

(even without thermite or jet fuel!)

by hex Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 8:23 PM


I'd just surrender and try *not* to be an enemy I guess

TW regards anyone who doesn't agree with him as an enemy. We can usually get through two or three posts without falling into misogyny/misandry/ insults or threats.

after all what makes one an enemy to him ? - mouthing off, being snide ? I can deal with not doing that - even just for friendship much less the threat of violence.

Guilty, guilty. But I usually don't initiate the round of name calling- nor do I ignore it.

it's important to keep things in perspective - intentionally upsetting people for the mere amusement when you are on the same side just isn't worth the hassle

You are right of course.

even when you're on the opposite side is it really worth it ?

I think we are generally less than serious about the teasing- right TW, Dawg? At least I am.

maybe the generalizations are really projections

I think not.
Re: misandry

> Is it better now?

well the real question is are you better now ? what's important is how you really feel about it, not what my perceptions are..

I think men are just fine. I don't own a pair of pruning shears.

But hey, I still think the false progressive turned attack weasel , is a good theme to keep in mind. Maybe a field guide to moles 'n trolls.

I have no trouble keeping you all straight. I've met Becky, I've met Megafauna. I am sure they aren't figures of my imagination. And they are REAL progresives- Becky works tirelessly with the most disenfranchised group in our culture- the homeless. Meg is an elected official in some newish political party looking to change the world. They are as real as they come. What have you done lately?

now now, whizz. Take it easy. You're Only A Lad.
These things take time and patience.
Would you like to stroll down our own little version of 'the way back' machine? And why I can support the 'huge asshole' theory?
We could start here:
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/137910_comment.php#138003
and go on with even more examples of whizzardry.
Interesting diatribes.
I've been doing some digging myself. and await your pleasure.

re: crochet

I'm good at it (I build micro-circuitry)


re: mammary glands

> Only in the West are they a big deal

well "the west" is a bit general - they're not a big deal to me


re: the thread's video footage

> even without thermite or jet fuel

there's no indication of thermite - I have experience with it and what appears in the video is electrical arcing with melting of Aluminium which is to be expected


> TW regards anyone who doesn't agree with him as an enemy.

Then I agree with him :)



re: projection of aggressiveness and misplaced misandry

> I think not.

where there's smoke there's usually fire


> I think men are just fine. I don't own a pair of pruning shears.

I think Muslims are just fine. I don't have a nuclear bomb :)



> What have you done lately?

Unwelcome Guests, Guns & Butter, Between The Lines

lately heard on the air here

I can't speak for sheepdog - there's no known thing he does do

unless you count flame, distract and post flake shit

this comment and the progression into majic arcs and blurred smears he calls proof.
This is Hex at his best.

'the footage clearly shows electrical arcing and Aluminium combusting with white oxide '

well dear readers, is that what you see on the provided?
exhibit A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite
judge for yourself.
Does this look like burning material or cooling material without any smoke trails from any rapid chemical reaction 'bursting' or otherwise.
[?]
And telling yourself that you were right or the moon is green cheese is only an opinion.
Let the reader decide.

Oh yeah? I sure don't remember you calling it when you were shown THIS.

Oh, but this is d-i-f-f-e-r-e-n-t, id'nit? Uvv courss...

Yes Tia "calls" racism wherever she sees it, but sometimes she "redefines terms"...

Where/When have I ever said I approved of what was going on in Lebanon?

What I did state was there was widespread media manipulation going on- that there was a whole lot of staging by Hizbollah. (and there was excellent documentation of this by independent journalists).

When you see that level of disregard for truth, you can't help but wonder what else you aren't hearing about.

1. War sucks. But how is war racism?

2. Thisis a 9/11 thread. Sheepdog will get upset if "we" change the subject, and he already thinks you work for Mossad, trying to get anti-Zionists to look bad.

Israel had this offensive planned months in advance and the plan was now in full motion -- the two kidnapped soldiers were just a handy PRETEXT...

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact
"Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah—and shared it with Bush Administration officials—well before the July 12th kidnappings."

And so Israel aggressively invaded a neighboring country on contrived grounds and one of your stormtroopers-in-the-sky fired a missile into a pickup truck obviously loaded with civilians trying to flee from the IDF, killing an entire family including babies and kids, and your excuse for this is "war sucks"? By which you clearly mean, "oh well, what can you do? Too bad it's all Hizbollah's fault."

That's a really fucking disgusting thing to say, Tia

There is no room for doubt that if the tables were flipped precisely and it was dead *Israeli* babies and kids we were looking at here, that you would be livid and heaping condemnations on Lebanon.

That glaring double standard is what makes you a BIGOT

Israel had this offensive planned months in advance and the plan was now in full motion -- the two kidnapped soldiers were just a handy PRETEXT...

Hizbollah was amassing weapons for years. A plan to deal with it makes good sense. Like a fire drill. Or here in Claifornia, an earthquake drill "Duck and cover"

And so Israel aggressively invaded a neighboring country on contrived grounds

Becky's already adressed this beautifully, so i won't.


and one of your stormtroopers-in-the-sky fired a missile into a pickup truck obviously loaded with civilians trying to flee from the IDF, killing an entire family including babies and kids, and your excuse for this is "war sucks"?

Thats not an excuse.

There is no room for doubt that if the tables were flipped precisely and it was dead *Israeli* babies and kids we were looking at here, that you would be livid and heaping condemnations on Lebanon.

There were dead Israeli babies and kids. We just weren't plastering their photos on indymedia. There were over a million people living in bomb shelters for over a month.

That glaring double standard is what makes you a BIGOT

No double standards. I don't like war. Even when we win.

(You couldn't possibly think I'm really Sheepdog....could you?)

"Where/When have I ever said I approved of what was going on in Lebanon?"

Naw, squirmy rat, what you said was "I call racism when I see it." Well there are PLENTY of displays of *zionist* racism around here, the above pictures from the wanton invasion of Lebanon being especially damning, but you don't ever seem to "call" THOSE

Tragedy on both sides.
I knew Gal's family.

What, only Israel gets to accumulate vast stockpiles of weapons for the sake of self-defense? Are you trying to say Hezbollah was about to INVADE Israel? That would be suicide, and it's not what they were equipped for anyway. They were obviously dug in to kick your ass if you should invade THEM, which is a right any society has.

But again, the rights you take for granted for Israel you won't even acknowledge for Lebanon, and that's because you're a bigoted pig

You're old enough to remember the old Star Trek. The first one, with Captain Kirk.

The crew of the Enterprise had visited a planet that sanitized war- rather than bomb and shot, they had a computer determine by lottery who was to live and who was to die. If your number was called, you were expected to report for deactivation. Both sides did this. It was war, without the mess.

Well, we don't got that yet. We've got mess and lot of it. We have dead babies. We have burnt forests. We have detroyed ecosystems and poluted waterways, and it sucks.
For all people.

This invasion was UNILATERAL AGGRESSION

The IDF asshole who blew up that truck knew EXACTLY what he was doing. This is a plain display of pure hatred

But somehow when it's Israel and zionists who hate murderously and behave criminally, you never seem to notice

Israeli babies killed. Is it more powerful to show before photos, or after?

Israel killed more babies than this in Lebanon in one week, but for you the score will never be even for these eight Israeli infant terror victims, rare as hen's teeth. It's the Yaacov Perrin "logic": “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail"

This invasion was UNILATERAL AGGRESSION

On Hizbollah's part. See Becky's excellent analysis. its somewhere around here. Israel had prepared and practiced a response, and they carried it out.

The IDF asshole who blew up that truck knew EXACTLY what he was doing. This is a plain display of pure hatred

I can't tell by looking at the photo what did the damage. Was it a missile? Was it a land mine? Why do you think it was premeditated? What evidence do you have?

But somehow when it's Israel and zionists who hate murderously and behave criminally, you never seem to notice

I was annoyed when they bombed UNIFIL. (though I have no love for the UN). I was upset about the ambulances, too...until I saw the expose.
http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/

So, isn't it 3 am where you are? Don't you have some nubile young thing under the down comforter waiting for you? Why are you discussing Lebanon on a 9/11 thread?
Is it just to torment Sheepdawg? Or is it just to torment me?

I learned to post photos! I think this is very cool. Luddite no more.
Want to see my rabbit next?

You couldn't make me read it by holding a gun to my head! Becky's a lying hate-twisted bitch

It was a missile fired from an aircraft and it happened in broad daylight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5184122.stm

It's not like this is the first time, you know.

Becky's a lying hate-twisted bitch
She's actually a lovely person.

If it were a missile launched from a plane, how would the pilot know who was in the cars? At any normal flying altitude, you wouldn't be able to make out the features of those in the car, unless it was a converitble, perhaps.

> Don't you have some nubile young thing under the down comforter waiting for you?

this is baiting - the exact same sexism you accuse him of


> Why are you discussing Lebanon on a 9/11 thread?
Is it just to torment Sheepdawg? Or is it just to torment me?

besides the fact that the thermite is flake shit and worthless and has already been addressed, this represents a diversionary tactic

the statement that debate with inconvenient facts is "torment" is very revealing

Israel has a well established and very long record of intentionally targeting civilians as the body counts solidly back up

TW is exactly correct in pointing this out and that people like Becky and you squirm and avoid this simple truth - you can't expect him to concede your diversionary and less acute points points when you're not willing to even address these

the sexist baiting then yelling sexist, with misandry sprinkled on top

the refusal to concede direct facts then expecting diversions to be

hypocritical behaviors - game playing, tap-dancing, toying

this is always funny.
The way you deal with evidence with your lack of same...

'besides the fact that the thermite is flake shit and worthless and has already been addressed, this represents a diversionary tactic '
Calling anyone a flake w/o links of qualifications for your opinions.
want to see a flake?
"stop using" - try stop spamming
by Hex Wednesday, Oct. 05, 2005 at 7:55 AM

unusual words crossed with handles is what datamining is all about

the statistics show *only you and billder* use most of these words or post these subjects

it also shows something else - either you OR him post but never TOGETHER

also, you extensively post HIS MATERIAL on here yet *you two have never had a conversation*

sheepdog is only used on here & portland IMC but a 3'rd "omnivore" speaks FOR sheepdog

all these handles cross with eachother...

and lastly when I insulted billder (even though he posts extensively on IMC) it was YOU who blew up, YOU who reacted - NOT HIM

when I posted his embarrassing picture, again it was YOU who reacted and became hostile and NOT HIM


here I am doing an expose' on him and it's YOU NOT HIM replying, YOU becoming hostile

and no conversation appears ANYWHERE - not on any IMC and nowhere else on the web *between you two*

you forgot to talk to yourself as part of the deception

you use plenty of his material on IMC and he posts plenty of spam on IMC as well so he's aware of it...

but not a word has ever been exchanged between you

this datamining doesn't include an analysis of the hidden posts either

this reveals that billder started heavyly spamming and his posts started being hidden, THEN HE DISAPPEARED AND YOU TOOK OVER, but at a smaller volume - to avoid the same fate

but you did get the same fate after all - the list of hidden "sheepdog" posts is large and growing - as I pointed out and as you "proudly" pasted yourself

and *where* this changeover from billder to sheepdog took place is where his posts started being hidden - HERE and PORTLAND

on other IMC's which tolerate your spam you still post as billder...
and you "two" have never had a conversation '
[ now that's flake material]
here view this video that Hex says is 'bursting aluminium' fires.
******
This is Hex at his best.

'the footage clearly shows electrical arcing and Aluminium combusting with white oxide '

well dear readers, is that what you see on the provided?
exhibit A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite
judge for yourself.
Does this look like burning material or cooling material without any smoke trails from any rapid chemical reaction 'bursting' or otherwise.

IMC's are sweeping the spam off - they are sweeping YOUR spam about enmod, chemtrails, haarp, etc off too

the video you keep referencing only confirms what I said - I enhanced the relevant section and pointed the evidence out specifically, but it's still the same video

that's why I have no objection whatsoever to your continued re-posting of the link - it's only backs up what I'm saying :)

same with the expose' - the actions of IMC's back that up as well :)

Hex has an opinion and stands upon it.

You ever notice he then builds on this opinion w/o any evidence, and continues to build and build and build.

And he calls *me* bildler. Or Bill, or posts his Bush Admirer like, asinine graphics. But where are the links? Or quotes? There aren't any.
If anyone examines the words off of this individual's keyboard they will find very a selective agenda. Can anyone guess what this may be?
Let's go down memory lane. We could start here.
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/136523_comment.php#136532

Dysfunctional personalities, anger-management washouts, bugeyed headcases, and the Zionists who toy with them (until we grow bored).

@%<

While waiting for the inevitable unsupported ad hominims I would add that this is precisely the parallel of a Chomsky like mole gate keeping uncomfortable subjects like in Chompsky's case, the denial of the JFK and 9-11 government crime cover up.
In Hex we see Global DU contamination, Planting the 'Iran has nukes', and chemtrail Operation Cloverleaf evidence [look it up on the search engine of your choice, folks ] as subjects he attacks in a fuselage of nonsense.
We could, for instance, look also at this example.
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/135658_comment.php#136045

There is much material of this kind. Thanks, IMC

> Hex has an opinion and stands upon it

yeah - who doesn't :)


> Bush Admirer like

watch out - that ball's getting bigger


> asinine graphics

I don't recall BA ever doing scientific analysis and enhancement

re: no "proof"

well the fields of datamining and statistics don't lend well to absolute proof

they can make a convincing case however

which they have..

speaking of which - where's your proof ?

the chemtrails - have chemical analysis data ?

the enmod - have climate and statistical data ?

the haarp - have upper atmosphere data or radiographic/field strength readings ?

the remote microwave mind control - have signal strength measurements and recordings ?

no ?

I guess all your proof was lost in that huge explosion you mentioned it being conveniently lost in

how convenient for you...

like I always say.
Quotes?
link?
or just more of your Huge asshole BS?
hence the 'huge asshole' comment.
another stroll down memory lane perhaps?
His corporate borg response to the contributions of Tesla
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/07/133317_comment.php#133347
and
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/134202.php
His attempt to plant the Israeli psyop of 'Iran has nukes' by constantly referring to a single suspect STRATFOR document...
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/01/145635_comment.php#148952
and a truckload of ancillary BS. Which never supports his intended pronouncement. IMOHO
check it out yourself.