how did we get into this fascist state? watch this clip and tell yourself there was only one shooter.

and don't forget to listen to the audio clip of (then) small time texas newsman dan rather "his head _went forward_ with considerable violence"

there- don't you feel better- the mother of all 'conspiracy theories' is solved by your very own eyes and ears.

please pass this around during this time of JFK's remembrance.

peace

ps- you may need this codec if it doesn't play (it is worth the trouble)

http://www.divx.com/divx/download/

listen to find out

somehow this uploaded but the script didn't transfer the link.

here it is: dan rather caught in a lie, helping to cover up the kennedy assassination.

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/rather4.wav

I use to not believe all of the JFK Grassy knoll theories until I watched the Movie JFK. It convinced me that there was something to it. For years I believed Oswald was a patsy. Then I found out that Oliver Stone fabricated 2/3s of the so called facts in JFK just to make the Grassy Knoll theories more believable and the movie more entertaining.

Making these things up doesn’t change history. Either Oswald acted alone or he didn’t.

However since you pointed me to this film I loaded into Premiere Pro by Adobe and was able to blow it up and look at it frame by frame.

At full speed when JFK is shot it looks like his head is going back and to the left (hence in the movie JFK, Back and to the Left, Back and to the left, Back and to the left.)

However If you toggle between frames 312 (the last frame before the head shot) and frame 313 (the first frame of the headshot with blood and brains flying) you will clearly see that JFK’s upper body and head is being thrown forward and down at least 6 inches from what I can only conclude is from the force of the bullet being shot from above and behind. Its too sudden and violent to be anything else. (in my opinion)

Its only between frames 315 and 323 that JFK is being thown back and to the left. I don’t know if someone else shot from the front, or this is just from the violent impact of the bullet making his nerves flinch, or from some other high speed ballistic cause, but frames 312 and 313 are the ones of interest here, not the rest.

I’m now back to doubting the Grassy Knoll theory. I still down know who shot JFK, but the head shot is almost surely from behind.

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/jfk-zapruderslomo1.avi

nice long freeper post- but it's bullshit. don't listen to this guy folks- his objective is the encourage you not to watch the clip.

watch it for yourself- jfk's head does not go forward - at all.

Dale Myers' recent computer recreations based on exact modelling from the Zapruder film confirm the forward head movement. Although at first it is barely perceptable, this movement immediately before Kennedy's head snaps left, is undeniably there.

I also once spent many years convinced of a conspiracy and cover up. But new technology and the decades long process of debunking so-called evidence for conspiracy has changed my mind completely. The truth is - anyone in the year 2004 who still does not believe a lone gunman was responsable for the shooting is simply ill-informed.

I have no idea why you silly fools keep trying to push another majic BS bullet. You are in the fringe minority. Congress concluded that there was more than one shooter.

In fact not an argument at all.

If you're going to decide against the conclusions of one group of investigators (the warren Commision), why simply accept the word of a another because it fits in with your current perspective? I suppose you're referring to the House Select Commitee investigation which decided on a 'probable conspiracy.' Unfortunately, if you were in any way up to speed on the current state of affairs with the case you'd know that the accoustical evidence which was the sole reason for this conclusion was found to be woefully compromised by subsequent facts that arose concerning the location of the microphone in question.

If your grasp of the case was any better I suggest you wouldn't have to make statements about people being in the minority. A large proportion of people believe that they have been kidnapped by aliens, but so far at least, this hasn't proben anything. What it comes down to is that there either was or wasn't a lone shooter. The degree of public belief doesn't change the truth one way or the other.

Also, let me repeat, like you, I was a FIRM believer in conspiracy. For decades I read Marr, Lifton, Garrison, you name it, and I BELIEVED beyond question that something sinister had taken place. I BELIEVED it had been the Mafia, the CIA, The Cubans, the military industrial compex. Johnson, French mercenarys....the Pope! Whatever.

But then my conspiracy junkie days ended when I started putting all of this conspiracy industry (and it is an industry be in no doubt - people are making money out there out of all that crap) in perspective.

Yes, its good that people question the government. Yes, the Warren commision (forced by politics to make a hasty investigation) made lots of mistake that opened the door to critics. But the days of seeing assasins in every shadow are over. New technology coupled with dedicated attempts to filter the facts from forty years of fiction and unreliable testimony (surely you must admit that a case like this has attracted all matter of questionable individuals?) to solve the case solely on 'the Facts'.....(did you know that all the evidence in the case that has proven to be forgery have been on the conspiracy side?)....have changed my mind completely.

For many years that snap to the back and left was all the convincing I needed JFK had been knocked off by a sinsiter conspiracy. That and Oliver Stone's ridiculously biased but exciting and dramatic account of what happened on Nov 22. (Jesus, Stone tried in vain to get smoke from a gun shot visible to the camera from the grassy knoll - but in the end had to resort to having a special effects guy blowing it out of bellows! If that doesn't say it all I don't know what does).

READ a little bit more. I wasn't an expert in what happens when little hot pieces of metal moving at high velocity travels through a person's body. You might think its all common sense but its not. Not anymore than one of these so-called 'photographic experts' who point out odd things in Apollo pictures and use them as 'evidence' that Armstrong and co didn't go the Moon. Their ideas are convincing at first but if you look into them for any lengh of time are ultimately moronic.

I know this isn't going to change your mind. But I was you ,Man! And just by saying this will no doubt bring out that conspiracy mentality and you'll decide I must be IN ON IT! But what I am saying is that to still believe there was any shooting from the front of the Limo at Dealy plaza is just plain wrong. Do some READING! Its case closed, Man! Get yourself the digitally restored copy of the Zapruder and make me a liar. That forward head reaction (to a bullet fired from the rear) is there. It was always there, in every copy, even the bad ones. People like us just didn't look at it with the right eyes, that's all.

If you were up to speed on conspiracy theory and its state of the art on the net, you'd know that critics of the Warren commision are so on the run now that they are even claiming that the Zapruder film (for forty years the cornerstone of conpiracy thinking) was tampered with back in 1963 !!!

Don't make me laugh,

If not believing in all that junk again makes me a silly fool, then so be it. You mate are no Einstein,

Gary

You must feel really lonely out there.

Here's what I love about the shadow government. They get to hire the best. If and when they aren't in the direct employ of The Elitist Bastard Powdered Tush Assholes, they are 'encouraged to set us straight' ,by denialists who pray that everyone is as ignorant about the issues as they hope, so we have to deal with sorry you. Sorry Gary.

Mr. Sorry, I looked through the stacks at the library to verify portions of JFK, the movie, found them to be accurate and did further investigation as to the CIA-ONI connections with this poor bastard Oswald who never ever received a trial even in abstencia. You, and your ilk are the reason this nation has descended into your wet self satisfied fascist dream.

Find some self pronounced defect in the story line if you believe it made any point what ever. Oliver Stone's JFK was most likely the most important film ever made because it ripped the scab off of this nation's disgrace. And we have the likes of you to apply the crept paper bandages. Piss off.

I can HONESTLY say I was a conspiracy believer too, and thought "badgeman" or "umbrellaman" or anyone else out there in the shadows of "DPlza" had at the least been involved.

I could not believe or fathom for 40 years that it could just be a lone gunman from the school book Dep, but after purchasing the DVD of the MPI Zapruter film and with even Geraldo Revera himself now saying and supporting the fact that Oswald alone had the means and motive to kill the President due to his life falling apart, and his obssesion with Cuba being invaded in the failed Kennedy backed attempt to take out Castro just two years before....cmon, without calling each other names or anything, I have simply come to the conclusion and changed my mind and now can only say all the bandying about it will never bring The Great President Kennedy back, and sadly our country has never been the same since the horror of that day, I was in the third grade, ..it was the only time in my life I can remember every adult I saw, was crying, and not even 9/11 or the other assasinations before had the same impact to us as Americans as the cold blooded calculated murder of the marine sharpshooter...Lee Harvey Oswald, the sad lost soul who hurt us all...that day in Dallas Texas.

no hard feelings just please look at all the facts?

peace

Cathy

gods...i meant to say...BY...not of....LHO.

Though his was a tragic story, he made it so by what he did and who he did it to, even his brother Robert knows his brother killed the President and brought shame and ridicule on his family, Oliver Stone is an honorable man I belive...but just got it wrong...and it was not a magic bullet theory anymore, its just a fact, joggle frames 224 to 226...there is now question the first shot came through the president and the govenor at a direct lined angle from the 6th floor window, and if Kenndy hadnt been wearing a back brace (he needed from his heroics on pt 109 in ww2) to hold him up...he would have fallen into Jackies lap and MAY have survived the neck shot from behind, but sadly it held him up long enough for Oswald to reload....and finish..the "job".

sad...but true... no conspiracy...no other gunman...just one lonely lost soul. LHO.

Peace

I am a differnt person, and a real woman, and have 2 grown sons serving in the us army today, just b-cuz I have a similar view to someone else here why would you assume for a second that I am not a unique individual on my own...

gods...help us all...

Catherine Anne Ryan

I also know that it was like having the walrus attend the funeral of oysters to have the swine like Dulles ( you know, the perennial CIA director that Kennedy fired) preside over the Warren Comm.

Thats a great little story, ...ummm...from "Alice in Wonderland", right?

"I am she as you are me, and we are all together , I am the eggman they are the eggman, I am the walrus..koo koo ka joo..." Beatles 1967



be nice to an old gal...geesh! wouldya? :)

And you can't have it.

Also the fact that the mayor of Dallas was the brother of Gen. Cabbal ( you know, one of the other guys that Kennedy fired) and that Oswald couldn't hit a barn at close range judging from his Marine marksman scores. Parafin tests showed he had not fired a fifle that day.

I have indeed been foolish. I was writing under the misapprehension I'd stumbled across a website which allowed for the open debate about stuff like this.

Not a depositary for increasingly childish insults and an inability to grasp the rational threads of any argument.

Well, once again, you have failed to show any real knowledge of the facts. You claim Oswald never recieved a trial even in abstencia. NOT TRUE. If you had as you'd claimed, looked into the matter properly, you'd know that Oswald was given a mock trial (U.S.A. versus Lee Harvey Oswald) by the American Bar Association. The result was a hung jury.

And that I think is where I'll leave this little debacle. 'Shadow governments' are best left to

fearful paranoid delusionals (and you clearly are paranoid mate - witness your imaginative need to make the other writer on this page and I the same person). You need help.

yep, he was just another punk...like you-

un-pleased.. FRIGGIN goon.

hmm.... must be a conspiracy?

Yourcomment is the most inane.

Also all the code books were missing from the SAC bombrts that day as was the code book for AF1. Funny how the DC phone lines all when down at 12:30.

That clever mafia.

Hey Robert Blake, I liked you in Electroglide In Blue. Too bad you were implicated in the death of your wife.

the only tough guys i know, are in the jail house...or the geave yard.

you punk.

pleebe,

you glow in the tragedy of others, your a sick mother f*****.

this should captioned frame of JFK's murder should please you & your ilk.

You love Robert Blake. He was good in, In Cold Blood also. But I don't love him. Funny how the Lincon Limmo was torn down and rebuilt on the 25th of Nov. '63 to destroy all that particular bit of evidence. But don't worry, with Porter Goss as the Gestapo Director, I'm sure there will be no new unclassified reports coming out.

As if they were needed. punk...

ROBERT BLAKE GIVES HIS REGARDS TO PLEEZ!...rotflmao.

I liked you better as Cathy.

Also I thought the Secret Service was responsible when they allowed the motorcade to violate all the security rules by this route through Dealy Plaza.

'Oswald was given a mock trial' - by the NBA no less. Shall I now bow deeply? Kiss the ring of your court jester? A gaggle of honking fat geese if you ask me, The only good thing they ever did was debar Nixon.

It was not an open trial, as are most of the important ones now days. An outrage to public trust and we have fools like you to stutter and quibble about puffs of smoke, Since I'm probably addressing a spook or one of their bitches, I have this to say.

Decode This.

KMMFA.

wow...

i totaly agree w/u about the ss!...and still feel that president kenndys pretty, and brand new 1964 ultra strech continental, shoulda had its equaly new bullet proof bubble top it was equiped with but the SS failed to stand up to Kenndys want to see the people...he died for the love and trust of his people, kennedy did.

luv Cathy/aka Selena St Goerge -A Punk no more

;-)

The "X-100"

With the decision to replace the "Bubbletop," Ford Advanced Vehicles (a component of Ford Motor Company) and Hess & Eisenhardt, custom-body builders of Cincinnati, Ohio, began conversion of a stock 1961 Lincoln Continental convertible, built in Wixom, Michigan in January 1961.

Ford lengthen the vehicle by 3.5 feet (bringing the wheelbase to 156-inches) and increased its weigh from 5,215 pounds to over 7,800. It was powered by the stock 430-cubic-inch V-8. The most notable innovation was a series of removable bolt-on steel, canvas and transparent roof panels that would provide a range of privacy. The "bubble-top" clear roof wasn't bullet-resistant. Stackable, the panels filled the trunk.

The rear seat could be hydraulically-raised up to 10.5 inches to provide a better view of the President. Other features included four retractable steps for agents -- one on each side behind the front wheelwell and just in front of the rear wheelwell -- two steps on the rear bumper, red flashers, a siren, two radio telephones, and auxiliary jump seats. One chilling option consisted of interior floodlights designed to illuminate the President at night. Costs were estimated at $200,000, yet Ford leased it to the Secret Service for a token $500 per year.

Delivered to the White House in mid-June 1961, the dark-blue car was dubbed the "X-100" by the Secret Service and fitted with Washington, DC license plates "GG-300." In September, the original grille was replaced with a 1962-model grille, apparently for aesthetic reasons. President Kennedy, who often drove a stock White House Continental on informal occasions, took a liking to the innovative "X-100."

In Washington, the "Camelot Continental" was often used in parades for astronauts and other dignitaries, usually with either the President or Vice-President present. JFK was the nation's first "media" President -- for him, image and style were attributes to winning political goals. Kennedy was philosophical about assassination, becoming reckless about his own personal safety and refusing to consent to many of the measures proposed by the Secret Service.



(Photo Above) The X-100 passes the White House on October 15, 1963 in this photograph by Cecil Stoughton. JFK is leaning to his left on the left side of the back seat, which is raised 4 to 5 inches. The President of Greece George Papandreou, who had arrived that day for a state visit, is standing holding the crossbar. It can be assumed that the jump seats were folded up out of the way.

In 1963, Kennedy made some 83 trips, including visits to Germany, Ireland and Italy. That summer, he toured the western States to gain support for his programs and raise party funds. Texas was viewed as a state crucial to a victory in 1964. As it was the home-state of the Vice-President, a campaign swing involving Kennedy and Johnson was scheduled for November, ending at the Johnson Ranch on the evening of November 22, 1963. In order to reach as many Texans as possible, open-car motorcades were planned as well as fundraising events not open to the general public. Mrs. Kennedy unexpectedly agreed to accompany her husband.

The Kennedys arrived in Texas on November 21 on Air Force One. That same day, an Air Force C130 cargo plane transported the Presidential Lincoln and "Queen Mary," one of two 1956 Cadillac touring sedans used by the Secret Sevice as a follow-up car. The couple rode in the X-100, with Governor John Connally and his wife Nellie in the jump seats, in a motorcade in San Antonio -- another convertible was used in Houston. Following a testimonial dinner for Congressman Albert Thomas at the Houston Coliseum, the Presidential party flew to Fort Worth that evening.

The Lincoln and "Queen Mary" were flown to Dallas, arriving at Love Field about 6 p.m. The cars were secured in the underground garage of the Main Terminal Building in advance of the planned motorcade through the city at noon the following day. On the fateful morning of the 22nd, Kennedy and Johnson addressed a small public rally outside the Hotel Texas, returning inside for a breakfast with the Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce. At about 10:30 a.m., the Kennedys ride in a white convertible in a motorcade through downtown Fort Worth, and on to Carswell Air Force Base for the brief flight to Dallas.



(Photo Above) The X-100 at Love Field in Dallas on November 22, 1963, awaiting the arrival of Air Force One. The raincoats are a reminder of heavy rain that morning. By the time Tom Dillard had taken this picture, the decision not to install the plexi-glass "bubble-top" had been made. A clear partition between the driver's compartment and rear area was also not installed. The jumps seats are folded up. Blue broadcloth lap robes with hand-embroidered Presidential seals fit snugly into special pockets in the rear doors.


center>http://billo-rants.freehomepage.com/x100.jpg>

ok---from a FRENCH article on the Kennedy Continental: (LOL)

After the Kennedy assassination, the car was completly rebodied by Ford and Hess & Eisenhardt. This changes cost more than $500,000 !!!

It includes :

new black paint job (originally in midnight blue)

1600lbs of bullet proof was added (that increase the weight of the car to nearly 10,000lbs)

addition of a non-removable top

solid aluminium rims inside the tires to make them flat-proof

a fuel tank filled with porous foam to prevent explosion in case of penetration by a bullet

a second air-conditioning unit in the trunk

reinforcement of some mechanical and structural components to acceptthe added weight of armor

complete retrimming of the rear compartment to eliminate the damage that was caused by the assassination

a more powerful motor (17% greater power) was necessary and added

The new X-100 was finished in May 1964, it was put back into service and was used by President Johnson, Nixon, Ford and Carter before being retired in 1977.

In 1977, the odometer shows more than 100,000 mls ! Ford Motor Company donated the car to Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village in Dearborn, Michigan, where you can admirate several presidential parade vehicles : the 1939 Lincoln V12 convertible (the "Sunshine Special") used by Franklin D. Roosevelt, the 1950 Lincoln Cosmopolitan (the "Bubble Top") used by Presidents Truman and Eisenhower, and the 1972 Lincoln used by Presidents Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush. The 1972 vehicle is the last presidential parade vehicle that will be given to any museum. The Secret Service will destroy all future presidential vehicles in test so that the complex electronic and security devices will remain confidential.

and im sorry for my frivality whatsoever.

How much investagation have you done on the subject? Besides watch the History Channel, I mean.

Oswald was given a trial by the National Basketball Association...?

Ah, at last it all becomes clear!

You people are a bunch of freakin' nut jobs.

and have been seeking the answers to the truth about him ever since, Its not just the assasination that I am interested in, it is the whole aura and powerful mystical power he and Jackie embodied for those 1000 days in office and the love that all good peoples around the world felt for them as they tried to change the world and make it a better place for all, not just their rich friends, but the common people esspecially.

I still miss him and dont care who he slept with or that he wore a back brace and popped 20 pills a day to do his job, he did it better than anyone since.

He was beloved by many and hated by a few, and I have weatched little of the hitler channel, for i do not like war, my sources come from books and working for Ted Kennedy in 1976 when he almost got the democratic nomination...The dream goes on...

I believe this is one of the better ones, unlike the bucket of swill Posner wrote.

Kill Zone

A sniper looks at Dealey Plaza

By Craig Roberts.

I recommend it highly.

Doing a good job of running this nation into ruin.

You may not have noticed but......

* Our economy has made an amazing recovery since the Clinton plunge, and

* Afghanistan now has a freely elected Democratic government. The Taliban terrorists are in hiding, and

* Saddam is in jail, and, best of all....

* Terrorists are flocking to Iraq like moths to a light -- and getting themselves killed in the process. It's a super deal -- they present themselves and we kill them. Better there than in Detroit, Chicago, or San Jose.

Our current President is perhaps the best we've ever had. That's clearly true if you look at achievements vs. cost.

Our immediate past President had no achievements (unless you consider 'don't ask-don't tel' an achievement.

I can't account for the fringe of the psychotic who try to convince us that war means peace or ignorance is strength or that freedom is slavery. But if you are a believer, I'll just say, sure, anything you say.

I'll never argue with a moron, it only confuses them and gets them upset.

The cradle of liberty and truth is new england, some of our greatest leaders and spkespersons hail from new england, like your pal, GWB for instance and his father...who like to pretend they are from texas but are conneticut yankess through and through....yale men and traitors to the founding fathers and the american dream..unlike Kennedy and Clinton who sought freedom and oppertunitys for all..though rich, and his father was a bootlegger , JFK was a real man and a war hero and if he gots some action on the side...god bless him...he was the best president since Lincoln...another victim of exstremists...like you!

they cant handle the truth so they censor us!

just as they covered up the Kennedy murder.

What!??

They covered up Kennedy's murder!?

Wow, that really IS a new one. So, what you are saying is that JFK was murdered previous to November 22, 1963 and this was somehow 'covered up' and the events leading up to his 'assasination' at Dealy Plaza was all just an elaborate plan to pull the wool over everyone's eyes and hide the truth?

Crikey, these conspiracy theories get more entertaining by the year.

And what a fine job it was. All the interested parties. The defense contractors, like NBC (general electric) plus all the CIA assets in the the media, thanks to PROJECT MOCKINGBIRD, it was, with the death of all the witnesses, shredding of evidence and slavering greed for a nice profitable war; at least to the southern rim economies of oil and munition manufactures.... don't get me started. Oh yes, and he was confronting the "Federal' Reserve System. He must of had a death wish. Maybe his back was hurting him. But he was still an upper class asshole. Better than most of them though...

...for the critical faculties of you conspiracy people -

If there was indeed a conspiracy to kill Kennedy - and its intention was to pass off the murder as the work of one lone nut job (a patsy) - why kill the President with this triangulation of fire plan, in broad daylight during a motorcade which almost GUARANTEED the killing would be caught on film and witnessed by members of the public? Thus necessitating all that tricky intimidation of witnesses, falsifying of statements etc. And given the many, many variables involved in shooting someone at distance how could they know how many shots it would take to do the job and which shot would be the all important fatal one? Important to know if you're going to plant a bullet at the hospital within thirty minutes to falsify evidence concerning the number of shooters. Why create a situation where you would have to falsify the autopsy later thus opening up more risk of the conspiracy to be discovered.

With so much at stake why not just come up with a BETTER plan!?

In fact, why risk ANYONE being aware of a second sniper, or a third for that matter?

If this conpiracy has the power to do all the things it supposedly did, why on earth allow the Zapruder film to exist at all. Surely, if you're going to knock off the prez it shouldn't be too diffficult to take out a dressmaker and anyone else who comes into contact with his little film?

But then I forget, the latest idea of course is that the Zapruder film itself was tampered with back in '63. But if that's the case whay, having changed it, leave the impression of a head shot from the front thus PROVING a conspiracy?

IGive it up you lot. Forty years of asking questions has failed to demolish Oswald as the lone assasin. But asking questions about the conpiracy theories themselves has put paid to most of these plainly false idea ideas. Oswald did it and he did it alone.

As for why, read any detailed biography of the guy and you'll find a 24 year old kid, a lonely, tormented, damaged and occasionally violent individual who wanted to make a mark.

Case closed. And no amount of paranoid bleating about shadow governments will ever change that.

and...

cue...

accusation

that...

I

am ONE OF THEM.......

LANCER







If it was so important to the plan that the public believed all the shots came from the same place, why risk ANY film evidence being produced at the site of the assasination that would prove otherwise?.

reading you set up all those strawmen. Let them stand for trifling later if you insist. The film shows his head slamming back just as if you fired a rifle at a melon, from the front. You city boys sure don't know much about what a bullet will do. It sure as hell couldn't do what Arlin Spector said it could. That dick. Include Dan Rather who saw the film and lied, as a dick. Don't be a dick, Gary.

This city boy doesn't have to be an expert on 'what bullets will do'. He has already said many times before on this forum and maybe you should LISTEN this time.....

Kennedy's head is jolted FORWARDS at the moment the bullet strikes -from behind- Then AND ONLY THEN does the ejecta from his skull snap his head back and to the left. You country boys don't know a thing about Newtonian law do you? And blind to boot.

The forward head movement is there and was confirmed by Dale Myers EXACT 3D modelling of the Z film. It may well only be 4 to 6 inches but to deny the movements existance is to show how incapable you are of examining the film objectively.

Most people's reaction to their first viewing of the film is that Kennedy's hit from the front. All that illustrates is that few people understand, as you put it, what bullets will do.

And what of 'badgeman' the so called grassy knoll assasin caught on film in the Moorman picture? Even if it hadn't been proven that to be a real person the supposed 'figure' in the picture would have to be standing on a ladder fifteen feet behind the picket fence, its been demonstrated he wouldn't have had an unobstructed view of the President at the time of the fatal head shot.

You've been watching far too many bad hollywood movies (Oliver Stone's JFK for example) and not reading enough balanced material on the case Sheepdog.

City boy

Yeah, in engineering they never taught us that E equals MV squared over 2 ( derivative) and I also field tested that if you shoot at a melon, it will jump at you because of the 'jet' of melon pulp blown out the back... you're right, it happens all the time. Some day I shall explain how a balloon goes through the air when you let it go so that even you would understand.

And as for the CIA cartoon you call 3D modeling.... very convincing!

(chuckle)

You're Weak.

Better weak I suppose than paranoid and without answers

You haven't addressed any of the points I put to to you.

Eighty percent of Americans believe Kennedy was assasinated as the result of a conpiracy. A significant percentage also believe they've been abducted by aliens. I imagine you're one of them.

Perhaps the aliens themselves were in on it too?

It seems to me that, unable to promote the official government ( pre '77 before congress resolved that there was more than one shooter) conspiracy theory to an adult audience, now you go off into babbling about aliens...

Once again....

The investigation you refer to was made irrelevant when the SOLE evidence that it made its 'probable conspiracy' conclusion was discredited.

Don't need any aliens to make your crowd look stupid. Just leave you to your own devices, you do the job yourself. Have you read ANY of the stuff that's appeared previously?

With enormous and heartfelt amusement

Gary

Yeah sure.

By whom and how?

...or were they in on it too?

In 1979, the HSCA, using a recording of a police communi-

cations channel, concluded that there had been a second shooter on

Dealey Plaza (who missed - don't mention that little fact, do you? where does that leave conspiracy theorists?). They also recommended further study of

the recording which, indeed, was undertaken by a blue ribbon panel of

scientists under the auspices of the National Academy of Science, their

report published in 1982. (See Committee on Ballistic Acoustics in the

bibliography.) As a result, the original finding was completely discred-

ited, in no small part because the recording was found to contain two

channels recorded at different times. But see how Jim Garrison de-

scribed the issue in his 1988 book, "On the Trail of the Assassins,"

Chapter 20: "The House Committee was left with no other alternative

[than to conclude there had been a conspiracy] after its acoustics ex-

perts discovered that, in addition to the shooting from behind President

Kennedy, a rifle had been fired from the grassy knoll in front of him."

True enough, but Garrison never writes a word about the subsequent

study; instead he leaves the reader with obsolete knowledge. Similarly,

>from Stone and Sklar, "JFK: The Book of the Film," screenplay of

"JFK": "A Congresional Investigation from 1976-1979 found a `proba-

ble conspiracy' in the assassination of John F. Kennedy and recom-

mended the Justice Department investigate further. As of 1991, the

Justice Department has done nothing." Also true, but also grossly mis-

leading. There was no reason for the Justice Department to act when

the NAS had followed up the HSCA with a definitive study.

Of coures, you don't have to buy into this.

And that's ok.



Its okay to disagree with me.

Of course it is. As I've said before....I myself was once a conspiracy theorist. But if you are going to disagree with my stance as a believer in the Lone Assasin scenario then for crying out loud, at least - at the very least - make it a coherant argument! Don't just post insults backed up with angry referances to things that have simply not been proved.

Otherwise, you just betray yourself as the kind of angry child its genuinely not worth arguing with.

Now, I dare you, prove that's exactly what you are with your next posting...What's it to be? Informed argument? Or stupid insult?

Instead of quibbling about how many or the location of the shooters I'll just say that if you believe JFK was killed by a lone nut Oswald, you haven't looked into his specialized intelligence background and his involvement with it, I have looked into this matter. Believe what you wish. I encourage anyone to do the same.

I think he was inside trying to set up a bust and was hung out to take the fall.

Again, not a great argument...

To scurry quietly and hurriedly away from the salient points (without addressing any of them) of one issue to quickly bring up another doesn't speak highly of your grasp of the facts or of any confidence you have to argue them.

However, seeing as you've brought up an area you do claim an expertise in....what about Oswald's (as you put it) 'specialised' intelligence background?

I would say If someone were to read only a diet of conspiracy literature it would be easy to conclude Oswald was recruited early on (probably in the Marines) into some kind of intelligence work. And they will cite examples that are clearly give-aways.

Here's just one of them:

During his time in the Marines, Oswald, having been treated for a venereal disease, had the comments that the disease was contracted in the 'line of duty and not due to any misconduct' added to his medical record. This is clearly an indication that young Oswald caught VD whilst on some undercover mission or other. Right?

Wrong. A little research into the background of army medical policy at that time reveals that ANY marine who owned up to catching VD and sought the relevant treatment would receive the same deal. It was simply an incentive scheme to help control an age-old and ever present military occupational hazard.

Also any proper study into Oswald's character and his behaviour, particularly during the time spent with his wife, shows him to be the kind of violent sociopath that would be completely unsuitable for any kind of intelligence work. Conspiracy theorists rarey want to discuss, for example, his attempt on Gen. Walker's life, his decision to kill Nixon or his plans to hijack a plane and have it take him to Cuba.

There is still no credible evidence Oswald was used by anybody in an intelligence capacity. But plenty of evidence to suggest that the intelligence agencies of both The USA and Russia simply considered him to be an oddball wannabe.

"...the kind of violent sociopath that would be completely unsuitable for any kind of intelligence work. "

....except maybe a desk job.....

If only he wouldn't have felt a desk job was beneath him this would be a lot funnier

Oswald was working at Atsugi Air Base with crypto clearance monitoring the U-2 communications. This was why he was used as a dangle in the Soviet Union cause he had this specific knowledge. The KGB, however was very suspicious of of him. He was allowed to leave the USSR with his wife and upon re immigration to the U.S. he was now befriended by right wing elements of the Beloruss ( White Russian ) community. Like George DeMornshield. But you individuals sure can provide flutter to distract, that's for sure.

Here's another excerpt from the investigation you yourself hold so much store by. The same one whose members agreed their conclusion of 'probable conspiracy' was in error as a result of faulty accosutics evidence....



" Alleged intelligence implications of Oswald's

military service--

The committee reviewed Oswald's military records because

allegations that he had received intelligence training and had

participated in intelligence operations during his term of Marine

service.(179) Particular attention was given to the charges that

Oswald's early discharge from the corps was designed to serve as

a cover for an intelligence assignment and that his records

reflected neither his true security clearance nor a substantial

period of service in Taiwan.

These allegations were considered relevant to the question

of whether Oswald had been performing intelligence assignments

for military intelligence, as well as to the issue of Oswald's

possible association with the CIA.

Oswald's Marine Corps records bear no indication that he

ever received any intelligence training or performed any

intelligence assignments during his term of service. As a Marine

serving in Atsugi, Japan, Oswald had a security clearance of

confidential, but never received a higher classification.(180)

In his Warren Commission testimony, John E. Donovan, the

officer who had been in charge of Oswald's crew at the El Toro

Marine base in California, stated that all personnel working in

the radar center were required to have a minimum security

clearance of secret.(181) Thus, the allegation has been made that

the security clearance of confidential in Oswald's records is

inaccurate.



The committee however, reviewed files belonging to four

enlisted men who had worked with Oswald either in Japan or

California and found that each of them had a security clearance

of confidential.(182) "

In other words Oswald had the lowest security clearance possible. Although he worked in a radar bubble and heard information relating to the U2's height and speed, released Russian documents show their information on these aspects of the spyplane were already well known from their own tracking. Oswald had no other intimate knowledge of the aircraft.. This is probably why when it came to his defection the Russians may well have been suspicious of him but their main reaction was one of general disinterest. He was just too lowly in rank to get the KGB excited. Not much of a carrot to dangle in front of them. Especially with Oswald's poor service record.

As for his return to the USA, despite attempting to, Oswald never gave up his US citizenship and was instead a resident foreign national throughout his time in Russia. Returning to the US with a family in tow would have been mainly about getting through standard beuracracy.

You don't make clear what you think his connection to right-wing Russians in Texas proves. Nor his friendship to George de Mohrenschildt. A study of Oswald's inconsistant, contradictory characted reveal no mystery about this. After returning, disillusioned from what he hoped would be his political utopia, even the embittered, angry, loner and social misfit that Oswald was would need a friend. De Mohrenschildt (with his background) was exactly the kind of person Oswald would be drawn to.

After forty years of speculative theorising (your own idea that Oswald was trying 'set up a bust' at the time of the assasination for example - a bust of whom? and for what?) not one coherant and convincing explanation of what exactly Oswald was supposedly up to if he was indeed some kind of agent for someone or something. Not one that is backed up with any credible evidence.

its obviously a watergate coverup...i noted in cathy treeks photo nixon in the back of the lincon

As ill-informed as those who believes than a bullet can goes around through Z-shaped targets !

The "Magic Bullet" must be the only fact proving the conspiracy !

How come we pick and choose when to believe and respect congress? I for one don't listen to a Fucking word they say, even if I do like what they say. I've watched the JFK shooting video in super slow motion over and over with a couple of my history teachers back in the day. His head does go forward and then he snaps back and to the left. The reason we will never complete this unsolved mystery is simple ... there are too many variables.

I clicked on th elink and got a kind of silent radio - plus a notice that the quicktime thingy needed to play it wasn't available. So I tried the download recommended and still couldn't see the video. I have mac with OSX

After reading most of this "dialog", I now know why we are governed the way we are. Nobody, it seems, is willing to listen to both sides of an argument and accept the crap that they hear on FOX News.

I'm happy for all you CEO's who have commented here. If I made several million a year for screwing up a company, I, too, would love Georgie and his gang of thieves.

If you are not in that financial bracket and you still love Bush, you obviously deserve what you're getting. Screwed!

im pretty open minded and have looked at things from both sides of the story.but i think people are getting far to serious here.

have a look at this site to see a humorus bit of research

http://groups.msn.com/elvisshotjfk

When you slow down the Zapruder Film and watch carefully at wide veiw, you'll notice that the Driver is slowing down and along with Govener Connolay (spelling?) is looking back. When JFK is killed, only then does the driver floor it. Now why would the driver, brake when it is obvious from the film that Jackie notices something is wrong and is likely yelling for the driver to speed, not do so??? By regulations, two Secret Service Men should have been riding with JFK, but they were ordered off by their boss in a different film reel. Also JFK should have had his Military Aide who carried the 'Football' and his personal Physician. Why weren't they there??? I could go on forever, but other sites will be better at explaining this than me such as this web site http://www.exposingsatanism.org/

Go to their Audio Video Link and click JFK Assassination Link.

Point is, I smell a Rat. That Rat has a name... Conspiracy.

These audio files on and with the Author of Farewell To Justice.

This brave Woman Joan Mellen, has interviewed the killers and their surviving handlers.

051011 A Farewell to Justice: Jim Garrison, JFK's Assassination,

and the Case That Should Have Changed History

http://www.takingaim.info/

Chilling testamony, well worth the listen about the mechanics of power.

If yo uthink there is another shooter explain how when JFK got shot the person in the front seat went down with a bullet hole in his back.

"If yo u []think there is another shooter[,] explain how when JFK got shot[,] the person in the front seat went down with a bullet hole in his back."

Nonsense. Governor Connelly was hit several times. In fact the 'magic bullet' found, by the way, on another floor that JFK was on, that was supposed to have done all the damage to Connelly and JFK, had less mass missing from it than was remaining in the wounds to Connelly.

This is old news. Where have you been, watching Television?

Even Connelly said, " my god, they're going to shot us all" during the hit.

There were bullets literally swarming through the air.

Don't make us laugh. Or don't make us laugh more than you already have.

If your gonna go by corrector then at least dont make any mistakes.

This 8 MM clearly shows JFK's head being blasted backwards. And Jacky's climbing back on the trunk to retrieve a piece of skull that she carried to the team at Parkland.

Dan Rather lied when he narrated the film.

The movie JFK was a superb analysis.

Garrison's book On the Trail of the Assassins is a good read.

If it wasn't for the CIA eliminating witnesses and the complicity of the commercial media, we wouldn't have had 9-11.

As for the CIA, they lied about Oswald and didn't admit it for three decades, when the Lopez report was finally released:

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/06/131272_comment.php#132093

If you're talking about lying, you can look at every Main Stream ( o shit ) Media event that has goaded the American public into war since its incestuous inception.

You can begin ( although NOT the first ) with the 'surprise' attack on Peal Harbor and work forward from there.

Most people are afraid to look.

But to delve into the minor ones ( not to the victims ) would only make one bitter and cynical.

The key, I believe is to allow the people to see just how they have been directly corn-holed by the most recent and mast blatant one, like 9-11.

Oliver Stone opened the door with JFK and it's up to us to force back the gold plated barrier on this one to smash the valley of mirrors and trample the shards.

Indite, convict, seize their assets and deport ( or incarcerate ) the criminal maggots that have pushed the levers of deceit to lay waste to the good people of the world.

We can do it if we don't allow ourselves to be tricked into fighting each other over more lies.

People still believe this was when WWII started. Dig a little though, and you will learn about Operation Canned Meat.

On Halloween Night 1938, Orson Welles produced a radio play based on H.G. Wells's War of the Worlds. Many Americans, either tuning in late or possessing what by modern standards is an almost quaint level of naivete, believed that it was not fiction, that invaders from Mars had actually landed in New Jersey and were laying waste to all before them. Panic ensued. Many people fled for their lives. Others got Old Betsy down from her place over the mantelpiece and rushed out into the yard to have at 'em. Casualties were reported.

This was not lost on the psychological warriors of the world. Ten months later, Nazi Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels spoke on the radio. He told the German people an only slightly less outlandish tale, that not Martians, but Poles had invaded. Unlike Welles, the Nazis had actually prepared some faux evidence. They were emboldened by the success of the Reichstag Fire, a ruse that had swept German civil rights and the last of the Nazi's internal opposition away with one blow. The Nazis dressed up some prisoners in Polish uniforms, broadcast a violently provocative diatribe from a radio transmitter a few miles from the Polish border, shot the place up, and left it strewn with corpses.

This stunt ultimately proved to be the single most deadly psy-op in all of human history (we hope). It was called Operation Canned Meat. The German people, who are apparently dumb as Yanks any day, fell for it hook, line, and sinker. They counterattacked clear to the gates of Moscow. Casualties were reported.

But if you dig a little deeper, you'll find that Operation Canned Meat didn't start WWII. It only spread it to Europe. WWII actually started in China, with an equally contrived incident at a place called Mukden Bridge.

But that's another story.

Even more surprising to those who learned their history in government run schools, is that WWII didn't end until 1953, when the last of the Waffen SS was finally defeated in a pitched battle in the Carpathians.

See:

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2001/11/109994_comment.php#110180

I. F. Stone wrote a deadly book on the reasons we went into Korea, where my dad became disenchanted with camping in the cold on the frozen Chosen Resevoir.

In his 1952 book, The Hidden History of the Korean War, Stone revealed that the CIA was again busy cooking up bloodshed in order to grease the skids for the sagging arms business.

As not to be accused of going 'off topic' the assassination of JFK was just another 'wet' operation to enhance the prospects of capital gain as eastern banking capital came into collision with southern rim, oil and munition interests to result in the removal of the CEO for another more favorable one.

Adult Supervisor Sunday you need some serious therapy.

What a fucking asshole!

Well most of these POST on here prove their are way too many stupid people in the world. i'm not fighting with any of you about but just reporting a REAL FACT for anyone who wants to read it. It's with LOGIC that we find facts, not by tossing INSULTS around. Rather you believe JFK was killed by Oswald. Or the driver! Or by someone on the knoll. Or by assassins from other places. And rather you believe the Zapruder film is real or has been doctored. Rather you loved JFK or hated him. All that is in the eye of the beholder anyhow. None of you people here can see the forest for the trees. In case you wonder what I mean by that. I'll put it to you this way. Agree to dissagee but also OPEN YOUR MINDS! No matter what you "believe" you can still listen to what others have to say without going into CLOSED MINDED and childish insults. Don't be so pig headed. Debate is fine but insults? Best way to prove your point is with debate with others, even if you do think they are a nut-job. As for JFK assassination, I'm not sure what to believe myself. I do find it strange that if Oswald acted alone, why is it that the CIA "high-lighted "so many documents with black ink? I also have seen the Zapruder film a few times. I don't know quite what it is about it but it seems to jump alot. The driver is looking backwards at JFK and "something" seems to be there when people say it's a gun. I wouldn't swear to that in a court of law but what is that odd object or whatever in the frames where the driver turns around to look at JFK? It could be light from the sun as it bonced off a piece of the car. It's just not clear enoughto really say for sure. But why does the film seems to speed up in a major way when JFK's limo comes out from behind the stemmons freeway sign?! It's like "warp factor" speed after that, it seems to me that the film would not be as clear as it is by the time the head shot comes. (No matter where you think the shot came from) Moving a camera around ALWAYS results in some fuzzy shots even in major hollywood movies. I kind of believe some of the "frames" of Zapruder may have been taken out, because of the jumps in the film. Sliced film dates back way before 1963 too. One hoax that has been proved is Hitler dancing grave hoax, look on the net for this... I'm ending my say here. Bye, bye!

There's 2 unanswered questions about JFK's assassination.First is the bullet they found on JFK's stretcher in the hospital.This was a long bullet made of hard metal and thats why it was basically intact.Experts said that this is why this Oswald "hard metal" rifle bullet went smoothly through the neck of Kennedy and the wrist of Connaly,leaving no gaping tissue injuries,only a couple of small entry and exit wounds.Why then did the second Oswald bullet,from the same rifle,tear out such a large chunk of JFK's skull??? This severe skull injury is more likely from a soft lead,mushrooming bullet or an exploding bullet!

Second question is: If there was a second JFK shooter how did he and Oswald time their shots at the president with such split second synchronation? For 2 riflemen,seperated by maybe 100 yds.from each other,to simultaneously shoot at the same target,is not an easy thing to pull off! If Oswald and a 2nd shooter had walkie talkie communications,maybe they could have counted down exactly when to pull their triggers.

Otherwise they would have had to prearrange an exact spot where JFK's limo would pass,to initiate firing.This would also be very difficult for Oswald to accurately see and judge,considering his distance away!

......the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll...who may have been dressed as a Dallas cop...to render him effectively 'invisible' at that location....was not working in concert with Oswald....although he knew of Oswald's function in the shooting,Oswald was utterly unaware of him.....his job was simply to let Oswald get off as many shots as he could at JFK and to take the fatal headshot himself from the knoll.....giving the appearance that the fatal shot had indeed been one of several fired by Oswald....which was why Oswald had such a smirk on his face when photographed in the Dallas Police Station....he knew damn well that none of his own shots had hit JFK in the head....and that the one that did had come from somewhere else

I don't know why you're a liar but it's obvious that you are.

Yes, it seems that according to Wickedpedia, I'm feeding the trolls.

I'm convinced that there are three forms of "single gunmen" enthusiasts. First, the kind that think it's funny to be insincere and/or deceptive. Two, those who have various hidden agendas to deceive. Three, those you describe -- ignorant.

Once you begin to base your facts on Geraldo Rivera, or something that has already been proven to be altered, you are going down a slippery slope!

See the movie "Killing Oswald" and you'll be back in the fold.

JFK is the gold standard

Friends, I am a little late in the game but Mr. Myers confirms Jim Marr's theory of giants. You have to be a man 14 feet tall to get the view he exposites, and 4.5 fett back from the fence. as a 5 foot 11 inch man I stood where my eyes had a view that Myers fail to pan toward, just a tad to the right of the wall oculting his example of the view, I found plenty of room to aim at Bob Groden's "X". Those who follow Mr. Myer's otherwise fine work will need to carry a sling and stones for the giant assassins. BTW, Badgeman's hat is visible towards the back of his head. Sarti's, alleged Badgeman only had one eye operative thus the glasses...

The is a another problem with Gordon Arnold's testimony:

He says the camera belonged to his mother, he would not give it up, he gave up the film.

He later says there were two cops, one who kicked him and took the camera with film. Angry behavior towards a european soldier by a cop(Sarti' was Corsican), out of place for an American policeman to one of his own soldiers.

Lastly, he says there were TWO cops, not one, and no mention of the railroad worked which was seen by others.

You all who support the Warren report be careful traveling the Ring Road, it is treacherous in winter

Bones