When it was announced that the National Socialists had picked City Hall in downtown LA for their next rally, the news spread like wildfire. The Nazis are coming! All hands out on April 17th! It was an insult! A direct affront! How dare they show face here in such a diverse city? Everyone was going to be there; everyone from the Black Riders to the Bus Riders Union vowed to have a presence.

And they did show up. It was truly one of the most diverse and beautiful groups of people I have ever seen in this city. As someone said, the Nazis have actually provided a great service by bringing us all together for a common cause. And it was a beautiful thing. Groups and individuals, some who had never showed up for anything before packed the street, the sidewalk and the lawn leading up to the police barrier set up to protect the enemy. And yes, there was a huge police presence. People complained about it. "Why are there so many cops? Why are all these cops here to protect the assholes? The city is broke! Why are we paying for this?" And granted; even some of the cops didn’t look too pleased to be there. But while maybe it was overkill, maybe there were way more than were needed, it seems that they did have a role to play today. ……

So now for the ugly part. The story is a little vague, and so far we haven’t been able to piece together all the facts. But it seems that there was some kind of fringe guy there……was he a Nazi with a suicide wish or was he just a random crazy with some weird ideas about Paganism and Christianity? I don’t know. I’ve heard that he was a homeless guy, that he was part of some cult; various stories. But he was there wandering around amidst the protesters while we were waiting for the Nazis to show up; supposedly carrying a sign with a Swastika on it trying to make some kind of point about what caused Nazism. And he was attacked by the crowd. Really attacked! From where I was standing I suddenly saw a concentration of people in the middle of the crowd; the kind of thing that you see surrounding an arrest at a rally with a lot of shouting and cameras being held up over heads. A fight! Something! I couldn’t tell. I’m very short and I knew that if I ran up to it I wouldn’t be able to see anything and I’d probably get hurt, so I kept my distance and watched from a space a prudent distance away. Eventually a bunch of cops ran up and escorted a shirtless man with tattoos covering his upper body out of the melee. I could see blood running down the back of his neck and what looked like wounds on his back and arms. He looked really hurt.

OK…Like I said. The facts so far are vague. But whether this guy is a Nazi or not, this whole episode is very disturbing. I believe we were there to show that we, the people on the bottom, or the left, or whatever we want to call ourselves, show up to protest the Nazis because we are different. Because we are better. Because we believe in something called Justice. In Humanity. In Human Rights and Dignity. And maybe for the most part that is true. And granted there were heroes in this episode. One of my Indymedia compas was quite the hero; taking some hits himself, protecting the guy with his legs while he continued to shoot pictures. Another man was there covering the guy’s head so the mob wouldn’t beat in his skull. Others yelled to stop.

Nevertheless this whole episode shows a lack of training; of consciousness, and of discipline on our part. This was nothing more or less than a typical mob scene.

So yeah. People are angry. We’ve taken some hits lately. We’ve had police murders and a lot of injustice. We’re watching our people being raided and families split apart. We’ve got idiot tea-partyers, no health care, and several terrible wars that are draining our resources. We’re watching our public services being not whittled but slashed, and our whole world is getting crazier and crazier. Down the rabbit hole Alice. Nothing makes sense. So people are frustrated and angry. They don’t know what to do.

And there’s no direction either. We’ve lost our great leaders. Locally, Don White who was always a voice of reason is gone. And Howard Zinn. The people who told us we’re right; that we have purpose; the people who kept us sane, are gone.

I remember before the big Democratic convention in LA in 2000 when we had constant trainings in everything from how to dress for a protest to how to talk to cops. Peaceful Civil Disobedience, jail solidarity, and tolerance and respect. We debated tactics. We discussed the use of tactics that maybe everyone wasn’t in agreement with….but we did it with respect. A lot of that is missing…..well, not all. There were trays of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on whole wheat and rye bread today. There was a man with fresh water. There was a lot of good energy and solidarity. But the lack of training that is missing since 9-11 is a big and obvious hole; and after today’s events it’s super obvious that we need it back.

How can we as a movement set out to shame a hate group and then act with such shameful hate and intolerance? So what if the guy was acting in a provocative way?! Get him out of there. Ignore him! Yell at him! But don’t jump on him like a crazy hate mob!

Let’s look at this as we move forward. Let’s understand that we are all in a process of recreating ourselves and our world, and figure out how we can do better.

I'm very happy to see that some of these white supremacist "Save Our State" / "Minutemen" / "National Vanguard" / "National Alliance" / KKK et al. scumbags were beaten. Love it. It's about time that citizens busted a few Republican lips while they're spewing their unamerican treason.

We need more white supremacist blood on our nation's sidewalks. Cudos to the courageous citizens who stood up to these neo-Nazi Republicans.

It turns out the guy wasn't even a Nazi...just some poor emotionally disturbed homeless guy.

The second guy, I'm not sure who he was, and whether he confronted the crowd or what. So I'll call him "a guy" instead of "the Nazi." As he was getting beat, he ran, and the crowd of at least 20 people went after him. After a couple dozen yards, other people started to converge on the action and a few people were shouting to let the guy run away, to stop beating him.

The guy took off and the crowd chased him down. The people saying to stop got more numerous and louder, and actually seemed to be getting closer in. I'm not sure if they had the skills to extract the guy getting beat. I started to move into the crowd - doing what, I'm not sure, because it's not like I know what to do to pull a mob of people apart. I have only faint memories of schoolyard scuffles to work with.

Then, entering from the north, a phalanx of cops rushed in and pushed in and started to push and hit the crowd back, and extracted the guy, who didn't seem bloodied, but was definitely beat up. The cops pushed aggressively westward across the street. (There were a dozen, probably more cops.)

The dynamic changed immediately - there was the threat of a police riot; in seconds we could have cops whaling on counter-protesters. I think people were quickly aware of this and backed off.

It's a good thing that the guy was extracted. This guy could have been killed. Even if he is a Nazi, he's a person, and we must not mob people and beat them, when we have our huge numbers.

Strategically, it makes us look bad. We have the numerical and moral high ground. We have the power on the street.

We didn't have the internal skills and discipline to prevent this incident and the other incident above. There are people within our activist community who have martial arts skills, who have tactical skills and discipline. We need to ask them to teach us what it takes to create peace in these situations. There are ways to let a few people get some punches in and then break the thing apart before it gets serious.

We're numerous, but we aren't conscious of our power. So we don't learn to use this power. It just explodes out there, with little control.

Anybody who comes to a nazi/ counter nazi rally with a swastika, deserves to be beaten up. No questions. I feel sorry for the pacifists that worry what this asswipe is about. People need training as to how to inflict better wounds on those who would commit genocide on whole groups of people, basically all of LA. This isn't a schoolyard fight, brothers and sisters. This is real life. We got to get them before they get us. And as for the cops, when the time is right we'll bash them as well.

To hell with the moral high ground!
Gain the tactical high ground, and
you will be much more successful.
FYI: The topless man who was beaten
had a large swastika and Third Reich
eagle tattooed on his chest.

Most sincerely, docchandler, US Army.

I was at the counter protest on Saturday and even though I despise fascists and racists like everyone else there, I didn't like what I saw in terms of our own internal discipline. I think protestor organizers should consider again be offering training to people who plan on protesting. I am offering martial arts training to ANYONE who wants it for free. We need more people with skill who can handle violence out there in a more disciplined manner. I think it will send a stronger message to fascists and racists who plan on coming out here. We need more discipline and organization to show solidarity and to protect ourselves appropriately. WE have the moral imperative to do so.

Contact me via email fenianson@aol.com

He didn't have his shirt off, looked to be around 50 years old. White, male, graying hair, plain clothes. At least this was how he looked when the cops barged in and pulled him out. He probably aged a few years in one minute.

Was it that guy?

If there was another incident with another person, I didn't see it. (I didn't see the one Anna was talking about either.)

One of those beaten most certainly wasn't a fascist. Check out the photos of him and his sign on other Indymedia posts . He didn't come with a ''swastica ' . He listed some isms that in his (apparently Christian fundamentalist ) mind lead to fascism . In his own very Non-Left confused way he was a Anti-Nazi .
What he did was similar to demostrators tauting riot cops by shouting '' Sieg Heil ''. Or Anti-Zionists displaying picket signs with equal signs between Zionism and Fascism .
I disagree with all the above . I like political clarity and clearness. But for decades people have used the above images .
In tense , Military like (if you will ) situations our side has to be very careful and disciplined .
Stupid even tragic mistakes can otherwise occur . For example in the early 90's the White Aryan Resistance group held a '' Aryan Woodstock '' in a rural part of Napa County in the SF Bay area.
Aprox. 1000 of us converged to counter-demostrate . Anyway shortly before the rally a few Middle aged Trade Unionists spotted what they thought was a Fascist Skinhead coming out of a gas station bathroom .
They accosted him and started to knock him around . Apparently all they saw was his Shaved head and Doc Martin boots. A few others intervened , pulled off the Union brothers and pointed out that the guys had on a button with a line across a Swastica and the slogan '' Smash fascism ''.
The '' skinhead '' was a Anti-racist Skinhead , a '' Red Skin '' as radical left skinheads were called then (maybe still are )
Anyway the Union guys's ignorance of that Counter culture and apparently being too impatient to take a couple of seconds to check out his buttons could have led to a lot more than a couple of bruises and some ripped clothing .
In ended on a somewhat comic note. One of the unionists (, apparently one of those arrogrant types that we in the left are all too familar with , ) refused to admit that the incident was his fault, poked his finger in the '' Red Skin '''s chest and shouted '' Grow some hair ''and stomped off !

JohnK: ''We didn't have the internal skills and discipline to prevent this incident and the other incident above."

I agree with JohnK we should get more people from ANSWER, so they can prevent any kind of disturbances, like the anarchists sometimes make, and let's the democratic process go on with Antonio, Arnold, and Barack.

We don't want any KKK or Nazi have any scratches on their white skin.

And that would be nice to have a few more lawyers like Jim Lafferty from KPFK TALKING FROM A POLICE CAR on a mic, urging people to restrain themselves. That guy is very good at restraining people. Because having 100 cops is not enough to restrain the crownd, JohnK, we need people in our own rank to teach others how to restrain themselves.

I feel really sorry for that Nazi who came into the crowd took off his shirt to show off his swastika and SS tattoes. He obviously did not want to provoke the crowd, and I think that this beating was uncalled for.

Further more to prevent anymore kind of incidents like that. I urge people not to ask themselves why there are so much Police to protect Nazis, KKK, Save Our State, Nazis, and white supremacists and others haters, and no Police to protect the leftists.

I completely agree with JohnK, let's not rock the boat, and be nice, gentle, abiding citizens.

Those who declare war on a misspelled word,
a simple error, are impotent and have nothing
to offer in defeating facism.
It's all sarcasm baby, it's all sarcasm!
Get over yourself laughing man.

swastika: (from Sanskrit) an equilateral cross
with it's arms bent at right angles.
A symbol that dates from the Neolithic period
and was perverted by the Nazi Party.
Moreover, it is a symbol clearly visible on the
bare chested man in the picture.

Most sincerely, docchandler, US Army.

What lesson was learned from all this?

For the anti NAZI types, as was pointed out, there needs to be more organization when it comes to kicking NAZI ass.

For the NAZI types, the lesson learned is that when it comes to kicking ass, have more people kicking ass than the people getting their asses kicked. So expect them to also be more organized and more prudent in choosing the fights they feel they can win.

Pretty much the same lesson was learned on both sides.

Yep, the anti NAZIs have won in keeping the illegal imigration issue in the gutter where, as long as the NAZI types are the only ones championing the issue, the NAZI types win in the long run.

Yes, you are being baited by a master baiter.

Docchandler, thanks for the picture.

You make it difficult to be a pacifist.

Well, that nazi there does. You're just the messenger.

Is escalation inevitable?

In a different time and place, the swastika meant something else.

Of course, Buddhism doesn't equate to pacifism any more (or less) than Christianity is a religion of peace and love. In the face of conflict, both have failed to deliver on promises of peace.

Given that there's a Nazi in the crowd, asking to have his blood spilled by the angry mob, what is the best possible outcome? How are we to achieve this goal?

Neo-Nazi rally was organized by FBI informant

Henry Pierson Curtis
Orlando Sentinal
February 15, 2007

A paid FBI informant was the man behind a neo-Nazi march through the streets of Parramore that stirred up anxiety in Orlando's black community and fears of racial unrest that triggered a major police mobilization.

That revelation came Wednesday in an unrelated federal court hearing and has prompted outrage from black leaders, some of whom demanded an investigation into whether the February 2006 march was, itself, an event staged by law-enforcement agencies.

I agree JohnK.
I spent time in Asia a few
years ago and immediately
noticed swastikas on signs
everywhere.
Instinctively knowing it could
not be fascist organizations
and supporters, I began to ask
lots of questions.
Obviously, as you also know, it
is traditional symbol of Buddhism.
Thanks for also supplying an
informative picture.

The problem with aggression is the news coverage:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-white-supremacist18-2010apr18,0,4043821.story

That story is not accurate. Even though I oppose the violence on our side, this media coverage makes it out even worse than it was, and directed some sympathy to the nazis.

Just to clarify. The guy I saw was the sign guy, not the shirtless nazi guy.

these mistakes of misunderstanding are common.

Yawn, burp, fart.............
That's what I hear from you laughing man.
I certainly don't hear anything of tactical
substance, along with a concrete plan of
action that yields results in defeating
the facists and preventing them from organizing.
You continue to prove this by attacking and attempting
to belittle my(certainly others) supposed level of
intelligence.
Attacks and energy that should be directed
and used on the FACISTS; not an anti-FACIST.
You therefore continue to demonstrate my point:
you have nothing of substance(at the moment) to
offer the fight against FACISM, other than petty
attacks against anti-FACISTS.
Moreover, I'm certain that your behavior is visited
upon anyone that does not agree with you or
wholly support your personal opinion.
It's all sarcasm, it's all sarcasm.

Most sincerely, doccchandler, US Army.

Yawn, burp, fart............
That's all I hear from you shaddup stupid(aka laughing
man).
You illustrate my point, and obviously the line about
sarcasm is still going over your head.
So please, just agree to disagree and crawl
back to your dead leftist den of impotent
militant liberalism.
Thanks.

Most sincerely, docchandler, US Army.

Yep. Think about it. Do you really believe that a person who organizes such rallies, is a "Commander" or "Grand Dragon," or puts their own REAL NAME on a permit & in the press isn't a Fed? An organizer of a rally would definitely face backlash at work and within their families IF THEY DIDN'T WORK FOR THE GOVT! The average nazi is a braindead idiot but the organizers tend to be clever and sometimes manipulative. Virtually every speaker & person participating at a nazi rally is a Fed, with the exception of 2-5 people. The Feds are the loudest ones & those who seem to have limitless budgets for travelling etc.

The purpose of NS/WN groups is to draw out skinheads & suit and tie types from the rest of the population so the govt can watch them. They also take pictures and gather intel on the opposition, who are usually more violent and crazy.