ISM MEDIA GROUP —"This is something small I can do to make life under occupation just a little more bearable for people, so I do it."

Paul Larudee, Ph.D, a 60-year-old piano tuner from El Cerrito, California travels with the tools of his trade and had twenty piano-tuning engagements scheduled around the occupied West Bank.

However, when he got off the plane in Tel Aviv Sunday night, Israeli authorities pulled him from the line, interrogated him about his political beliefs, not about his ability to tune pianos, and took him to an immigration detention center at Ben Gurion Airport. They intend to put him back on a plane today.

Dr. Larudee has visited Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories four times and has lived in the region. He has a PhD in linguistics from Georgetown University. Although never arrested or detained in the past, Israeli authorities have now decided to deport him based on his outspoken support for the work of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) and the Palestinians’ right to nonviolently resist occupation.

Israeli attorney Gabi Lasky stated: "The policy of blacklisting a nonviolent peace activist as persona-non-grata, then denying them access to the Occupied Territories because of their nonviolent activities raises questions regarding Israel's intentions to resolve the conflict through dialogue and nonviolent means".

While airport officials routinely forbid entry to anyone involved with ISM, such denials run counter to Israeli policy. The Ministry of the Interior openly states that it does not seek to stop those involved with ISM from entering the country.

Dr. Larudee will refuse to get on a plane to be deported against his will, while attorney Lasky is appealing the deportation order on his behalf. His family and friends are concerned for his health while he’s in detention, since he is diabetic and has specific dietary and medical needs.

The International Solidarity Movement calls on Israel's Department of the Interior to honor its stated policies and not discriminate against peaceful individuals such as Sr. Larudee on the basis of their beliefs.

For more information, please contact

Neta Golan at the ISM Media Office: 011-972-2-297-1824

Attorney Gabi Lasky: 011-972-5444 18 988

ISM Media representative, Greta Berlin, Los Angeles 310-422-7242

www.palsolidarity.org

Clearly All Piano Tuners are Now Suspect.



New York piano tuner defies U.S. in Cuba

Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:33:25 -0600

By Esteban Israel Tue May 16, 4:44 PM ET

HAVANA (Reuters) - Benjamin Treuhaft believes pianos are not a threat to U.S. national security even if they are played in Cuba.

Risking fines and jail for "trading with the enemy," the New York piano tuner has shipped 237 pianos to Communist-run Cuba since 1995 to replace old

Soviet-made pianos damaged by tropical humidity and termites.

This week he returned to Havana with 200 lbs (100 kg) of tools and a dozen music lovers to help tune the second-hand pianos donated by Americans

through his non-profit "Send a Piano to Havana" program.

The 58-year-old bandana-clad activist opposes U.S. trade sanctions against Cuba on humanitarian grounds and has been to Cuba 16 times defying a travel ban for Americans.

"I was hoping to break the embargo when I first came," Treuhaft said on Tuesday as he tuned a 1934 Story & Clark Baby Grand piano donated by a woman in Concord, California.

"There was a horrible situation for pianos. The climate, the conditions, the blockade against commerce and parts," he said.

In the mid-1990s Treuhaft was fined $3,500 for going to Cuba. That did not stop him. He refused to pay.

But things have got more complicated after the Bush administration began

tightening restrictions on Cuba in 2002.

In March Treuhaft received a warning from the

<http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Treasury%0ADepartment>Treasury

Department that he would face criminal penalties of up to 10 years in prison

and $1 million in fines if he went ahead with a plan to set up a copper bass

string factory in Cuba.

Treuhaft does not care that his venture violates U.S. laws designed to undermine Cuban leader Fidel Castro's

47-year rule and bring about political change in Cuba.

He plans to call the factory the Helms-Treuhaft Piano Bass String Company,

in reference to former Republican Senator Jesse Helms who sponsored a 1996

law strengthening the embargo.

"This is a holiday trip. I like to tune pianos on my holidays," Treuhaft said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2992663.stm

Mikes Place bombing

We have a BBC report ( primary *creditable* source) w/o any mention of ISM involvement

but Ms. BJ ( the zionist liar and Mossad asset ) tells us the 'ISM' was involved in the Mikes Place bombing.

" Israel caught a big fish this time" [ w/ graphics from Ms. BJ!!]

Do we really need anymore evidence who this individual works for and why?

She *only* acts as a zionist parrot.

FROM: Details of April 30, 2003 Tel Aviv suicide bombing

(Communicated by the Prime Minister's Media Adviser)

Jerusalem, 3 June 2003

"The two terrorists were careful to establish their presence in Judea and Samaria by forging links with foreign left wing activists and members of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM).

ISM members take an active part in illegal and violent actions against IDF soldiers. At times, their activity in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip is under the auspices of Palestinian terrorist organizations.

Foreign left wing activists, especially ISM members, who seek entry into Israel, often do so under false pretenses, via cover stories - entry for matrimonial, tourist, religious and otherr purposes - which they coordinate prior to arriving in Israel."

I look forward to his descriptions of torture while in the Israeli detention center.

I suspect it will be similiar to the experience of Andrew McDonald, as described on Indymedia:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/01/1796066_comment.php#1796088

At 3:00 in the morning to Friday, ISM-activist Andrew Macdonald was forcefully deported from Israel, 7 weeks after being abducted from Palestine by the Israeli Border Police. Andrew has been imprisoned for 7 weeks, one week of which in isolation, after refusing initial deportation. He has been held in the detention

centres of Ramla and Tzohar. Throughout his imprisonment he has received various threats from his prison commander. Threats have varied

from transferring him to a mental institution, drugging him, and to "play games with him". He has also been subject to light torture; whilst in isolation he was deprived of his sleep when guards refused to turn off the lights at night. Furthermore, prison guards have

repeatedly interfered with his visiting hours, sometimes cutting them short ahead of time, sometimes themselves sitting and wanting to take

part in the conversations between Andrew and his visitors.



Poor Andrew.

"whilst in isolation he was deprived of his sleep when guards refused to turn off the lights at night."

And his blanket was scratchy!

" Furthermore, prison guards have repeatedly interfered with his visiting hours, sometimes cutting them short ahead of time, sometimes themselves sitting and wanting to take

part in the conversations between Andrew and his visitors. "

Bored prison guards with poor interpersonal skills! Thats gotta violate the Geneva convention. Its gotta....right?

Torture, Israeli style. There you have it folks, Direct from the mouths of the ISM. Can't wait to hear what Paul will say.

ahem...

I did say a #creditable# source not manipulated by your paymasters.

Or additional insipid dodges or referrals to more ( coulda guessed ) zionist billboards.

the reason the above comment ignored the 'talked to them for about 15 minutes' was its ridiculous assertion that this provided a 'link' to ISM.

More interested in your " -My Mossad sources- "

The BBC has been shown to display considerable anti-Israel bias.

Sheepdog---ALL sources provide SOME kind of link. The guy "says" they only talked to them for 15 minutes, but how do you know that that is true?

The ISM co-founder, Adam Shapiro's wife, Huwaida Araf has said at a Palsolidarity conference that the ISM works with "Palestinian handlers" and that they work with members of "Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and Hamas."

A rifle AND a wanted terrorist were found in the ISM West Bank office---and its supposed to be a strictly non-violent organization.

Can you honestly say that you KNOW for SURE that there was no ISM involvement in the bombing of Mike's Place?

Just how vigorously do they support the right of the Palestinian people (or in this case British Muslim tourists)to resist their occupiers?

ISM sends volunteers out into harms way. Two of their volunteers have been killed and one very badly injured in what appears to be a conscious effort to get them killed.

Ask the Martyr Rachel Corrie. Oh, yeah. You can't.

Paul LaRudee is more responsible for Corrie's death than the driver of the bulldozer. The driver killed her by accident. For LaRudee, it was a calculated plan.

SHEEPDOG WRITES: "I did say a #creditable# (sic) source not manipulated by your paymasters. "

BECKY: As I have repeatedly written, I am not paid by anyone other than the School system where I am employed.

As for sources, since you reject any Israeli source for news about Israel, and any MSM source, since they are "the puppets of the Zionist masters", I wonder what you have against Wikipedia as a source?

Oh, and sorry about the Mossad reference. It was a joke.

(funny, Sheepdog calls me a liar repeatedly, and the ONE time I say something that isn't true, he believes me.)

So... you're lying when you tell us...

1.' -BECKY: That's not what I heard. My Mossad sources tell me that the ISM is now listed as a terrorist group by the Israeli govt. '-

And now it's...

2. 'Oh, and sorry about the Mossad reference. It was a joke.'

*****

You're the joke here, Ms. BJ. No one can believe you for anything because your lying appears to be so casual.

"You're the joke here, Ms. BJ. No one can believe you for anything because your lying appears to be so casual"

You and your teammate 'nessie' are the everlasting joke here.

covering up for Ms. BJ the zionist liar?

That's team work. Good for you.

Yep. Teamwork. Thats the core of the Great ZIonist Conspiracy, along with our secret weapons of fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope….



Oops , sorry. Wrong conspiracy.

Doggie, the local zionist conspiracy could fit into a microbus.

You are suffering from delusions of paranoia. Its ok, though. It adds to your charm.

If you thank that *I'm* charming ...

You have never met me.

Although beautiful beyond belief, my personality more then makes up for my

good dog looks.

Still not fond of individuals who threaten me or my friends.

Like zionists who conflate Judaism w/ rapine and oppression.

And as their agencies try to cover this over.

"Yap yap Still not fond of individuals who threaten me or my friends. Like zionists who conflate Judaism w/ rapine and oppression. Yap yap"

You and they deserve to be threatened. I delight in insulting you. You're a persistent rabid mouth foaming vile racist. Both you and 'nessie' have created a new "Judaism" out of your scabrous asses.

insult me, that is...

I wouldn't know you cared.

But insults are all you have to counter your zionist rapine and oppression.

As you attempt to prop up Ms. BJ. and all the lies that she and 'you' bring in to obscure this unpleasantness.

"good dog looks".

Old English, I assume?

On topic, LaRuddie and the ISM deserve what they get- they use cult like techniques to recruit and keep young people, and encourage them to participate in unsafe activities. Rachel Corrie was set up and exploited by her handlers- who knew she would be worth more dead than alive.

You are calling the ISM a cult.

A zionist, calling the ISM a 'cult'.

Amazing. Anything else?

From Wikipedia: in religion and sociology, a cult is a cohesive group of people (often a relatively small and recently founded religious movement) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be far outside the mainstream.



So, what is so far outside the mainstream about Zionism, the belief that the Jewish People have the right to self determination in their ancient homeland?

Think of me often like Blood, in A Boy and His Dog.

Here's the problem.

You frame this entire misery as a plight of 'Jews' and not a colonization by terror and destruction.

You continue to waste your time and expose your ideology.

I love this sh*t.

"You frame this entire misery as a plight of 'Jews' and not a colonization by terror and destruction.

You continue to waste your time and expose your ideology. "

We'll outlast you and your racist, odious, reactionary bugeyed lies.

bugeyed?

Do you see things crawly or feel them on you too? Tell me about it.

:>)

You object to my synopsis?

flamed.& stuff. Why do I bother when you individuals keep on going all by yourself. It isn't difficult.

I am impressed with mr. 'goat and its vocabulary though.

But aside from the vitriol and bad vibes from mr. 'goat, he can only deny the obvious.

This is a new world. We have information. We have search engines and our growing sophistication of discernment that comes from the veils being torn away from the controlled media.

Ha ha.

"This is a new world. We have information. We have search engines and our growing sophistication of discernment that comes from the veils being torn away from the controlled media."

And flood of disinformation as well. A lack of critical thinking skills on the part of many Americans leads to a morass of bewilderment with people more impotent than ever before.

Real History can still be found in books. Ask a librarian.

Now you're implying I never read?

Maybe I just give credence to different authors.

"Now you're implying I never read?"

Its very difficult without opposable thumbs. But I suppose its possible.

What was the last book you read on the situation in the Middle East?

Why don't you pick up Dennis Roth's book and learn what really was offered at Camp David? Do you think 30 billion in reparations is sufficient? A state of their own....?

Or pick up the "Other War"- its an examination of media bias in mid eastern reporting

reading is easy. Turning pages and typing is more challenging.

So reading your authors will help me understand why the PR front for zionism can NEVER accept any responsibility for the level of violence.

Right.

I think of you when I hear this KPIG classic:

"Life is hard, but life is harder when you're dumb"

So.

And you say I'm dumb?

:>(

Sad again, unable to wag tail.

But your PR front for Israel *does* have at its basic foundation the inability ( nay, the imperative! ) to accept ANY responsibility for the violence and hate.

Blind deaf and DUMB.

That's zionism in regards to its roll as the 'injured party'.

Apologies all around.

No need to resort to insults.

Even via KPIG.

http://somebodyhelpme.info/Tovia_Singer/06-06-06_Lee_Kaplan_Interview_About_ISM.mp3

heh heh our little Ms. BJ....

-Lee Kaplan, Dafka Exposed

author: Will Wallace (posted here by mirror) e-mail: forfreewillwallace@yahoo.com

Santa Cruz Community Television is offering up more than the usual community dish. Recently, Club Cruz, a locally produced television show, has been used as a platform for virtual infomercials for an extremist group with a record of harassing peace advocates.

The show, produced by Santa Cruz resident Becky Johnson, has featured on several occasions a man named Lee Kaplan, self-proclaimed founder and director of the extreme Zionist group, Dafka.

http://www.dogpile.com/

Lee Kaplan

Shill for Israel

just like Ms. BJ

Since it is a foregone conclusion that the ISM warmongers and lackeys for genocide come to Israel with an intention to refuse deportation and launch attritious legal proceedings to delay the deportation, Israel should find a loophole through which to pass legislation that denies these genocide abeters the chance to stage these shows that add to the burden of cases in Israel's overloaded court system, occupy much needed police resources and cost money better spent elsewhere.

Too bad it is not overloaded with trials of Israeli men involved in the importation of kidnapped eastern European women, known as "Natashas," for use in forced prostitution in the Holy State. For information on this, see Victor Malarek's book - appropriate entitled The Natashas.

Your emotions are getting the better of you once more. Apparently you've got nothing worthwhile to say on topic. As you digress, you're singling out Israel again while other states are just as or even more guilty of that and you're waaaaaay off topic. Your complaint doesn't belong here. Wakey wakey. Too bad you can't stick to this thread's subject.

It has been amply documented that Israel is one of the worst offenders among states. See the book I recommended. And since the topic of the allegedly badly functioning Israeli court system was brought up, I think that my post was certainly on topic. This importation of sex slaves operation could not be operating as openly as it does if the so-called authorities were not looking the other way.

Waiting for the next red herring.

Just finished reviewing this thread, you people have some good ones!

This one in particular looks fairly damaging to the zionists in my opinion (an impartial observer). Let's recap:

A piano tuner in Israel gets locked up for his ties to what claims to be a non-violent pro-palestinian group (ISM).

Then, Becky Johnson comes on here and claims that ISM is a terrorist organization that bombed a bar in Tel Aviv (Mike's Place). Although, she fails miserably to provide any substanative proof. All of the links she provides do not positively back up here allegations. So she simply attempts to raise inquisitively doubts:

BJ: "Can you honestly say that you KNOW for SURE that there was no ISM involvement in the bombing of Mike's Place?"

Well, no. As an impartial observer I can't honestly say that I know that for sure. I also can't honestly say I know for sure that little green men from Uranus weren't involved in the bombing either, but no one has claimed that they have, so I guess I don't have to defend against that strawman either! Let's be honest here, Becky, it was your assertion that ISM bombed Mike's Place, and now you expect people to prove they didn't? That's a pretty fraudulent debate tactic my girl. Pretty poor.

Then we have this little jewel from Scapegoated Jew:

"Proud to threaten your friend ... You and they deserve to be threatened."

Winning our hearts and minds, eh, SJ? Lots of credibility lost there pal. The Zionists are sinking fast.

Then Tia:

"On topic, LaRuddie and the ISM deserve what they get- they use cult like techniques to recruit and keep young people, and encourage them to participate in unsafe activities."

I couldn't stop laughing at Sheepdog's response:

Let's get this straight ....

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Jun. 06, 2006 at 8:36 PM

You are calling the ISM a cult.

A zionist, calling the ISM a 'cult'.

Amazing. Anything else?

ROFLMAO! That retort was perfect in every way Sheepdog! Bravo my friend. You are a master. Kudos on that one.

So in the absence of any real explanation as to why the Israeli government jails piano tuners with ties to non-violent pro-palestinian protest groups, I feel compelled to ask the Zionists to please tell me again ~

How is Israel a Democracy?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Israel should pass legislation to instantly deport

by Scapegoated Jew Friday, Jun. 09, 2006 at 9:50 AM

Since it is a foregone conclusion that the ISM warmongers and lackeys for genocide come to Israel with an intention to refuse deportation and launch attritious legal proceedings to delay the deportation, Israel should find a loophole through which to pass legislation that denies these genocide abeters the chance to stage these shows that add to the burden of cases in Israel's overloaded court system, occupy much needed police resources and cost money better spent elsewhere.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So, anyone that comes to Israel who expresses support for Palestine and non-violent direct action against Zionism should be deported? Tell me, how is that Democracy again?

First off, you're holding your idol Sheepdog to a different standard than B. Johnson. Where exactly did your canine god disprove Tia's assertions about LaRuddie and his nefarious organization? You just applauded him like some 5 yr. old would cheer on a person he/she admires. Is this your idea of mature discourse?

Nobody but card carrying anti-Zionists care that the man happens to be a piano tuner. This person had assisted terrorists that sought to massacre innocents in contravention of int'l law and refused to board a plane back to the US, ergo he was jailed. Even if he does have ties to "non-violent pro-palestinian protest groups", that's irrelevant here.

Your behavior since the post in which you supposedly asked for calm rational debate demonstrates you're not exactly interested in that. Moreover, your purporting to come across as an impartial observer seems increasingly laughable with every further post you make on this site. Now, who said I'm even interested in winning the heart and mind of someone like you, or care what you think of my credibility for that matter? You are to act on your ostensible plea for rational, mature and calm exchanges and make a clean break with the buffoonery, then I'll concern myself with how you perceive me and my arguments. Comprende?

Mr. Scapegoat, forgive us for wondering why the piano turner was jailed while those openly importing sex slaves to Israel have not been jailed. I does seem odd that the cops would have such priorities in this allegedly highly democratic nation.

Thats simply idiocy. Of course Israel, like any other country arrests criminals. On the other hand, like anyother country, Israel has control overits borders and has the right to refuse admission. Larudee is a well known agent in the service of the Palestinians and appears to be staging some sort of publicity move. The fact that he is a piano tuner is of no more note than Hitler being a landscape painter.

LUNCHBOX WRITES: "Let's be honest here, Becky, it was your assertion that ISM bombed Mike's Place, and now you expect people to prove they didn't? That's a pretty fraudulent debate tactic my girl. Pretty poor."

BECKY: You are not in the slightest interested in honesty. I have amply shown a CONNECTION between the ISM and the Tel Aviv suicide bombing. I never said ISM members bombed Tel Aviv!!

I have provided several references to the ISM working directly with VIOLENT Palestinian militias intent on destroying Israel.

No one is worried about non-violent direct action. It is the violent actions that the ISM clearly supports (they call it legitimate armed resistance), the suicide bombers who hung out all day in the GAZA ISM office before crossing over to commit suicide/mass murder of innocent civilians---that the State of Israel and activists like Lee Kaplan and myself are condemning.

LaRudee is hardly an innocent "piano-tuner." He heads the ISM. He sends young people out into harms way. And there is a growing pile of bodies left in his wake (Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndal, Tel Aviv bomber victims, etc.) Brian Avery was sent out into a closed war zone, in violation of curfew, to "see where the gunshots were coming from." He got hit by a riccocheting bullet. Who is to blame for that?



The ISM has been declared a terrorist organization by Israel. Therefore LaRudee has to lie in the hopes of getting into the country. And you talk of honesty. For you, talk is cheap. VERY cheap.

"This person had assisted terrorists that sought to massacre innocents..."

You have provided no proof whatsoever of this assertion. Not one iotata, nadda. Not a shred.

"Now, who said I'm even interested in winning the heart and mind of someone like you, or care what you think of my credibility for that matter?"

It is becoming more and more apparent that you are not.

"You are to act on your ostensible plea for rational, mature and calm exchanges and make a clean break with the buffoonery, then I'll concern myself with how you perceive me and my arguments. Comprende?"

I don't take orders from you.

"It does seem odd that the cops would have such priorities in this allegedly highly democratic nation."

Like the priority of helping to protect all Israeli citizens from a person that had assisted the Palestinians who murder Israelis wherever they get the chance. That you're apparently upset with that is a cause of joy for me.

"BECKY: You are not in the slightest interested in honesty. I have amply shown a CONNECTION between the ISM and the Tel Aviv suicide bombing. I never said ISM members bombed Tel Aviv!!"

But from BJ's very first post in this thread:

"BECKY: That's not what I heard. My Mossad sources tell me that the ISM is now listed as a terrorist group by the Israeli govt. ---because of the two ISM'ers who non-violently suicide bombed Mike's Place in Tel Aviv after spending two weeks with the ISM in Gaza."

Becky Johnson, you are now officially relegated to the the liar's den, where you will spend the rest of eternity with all the other liars and obfuscators who have no credibility.

"BECKY: The ISM has been declared a terrorist organization by Israel. Therefore LaRudee has to lie in the hopes of getting into the country. And you talk of honesty. For you, talk is cheap. VERY cheap."

Very convenient that the Zionists can simply declare any organization that disagrees with their apartheid government a "terrorist organization", without citing a shred of credible proof, and then declare any of the members of said non-violent agencies persona non grata, have them jailed and subsequently deported.

That smells like democracy to me. Well, the rotting corpse of one anyway....

Of course, we can all be sure that Mr. Scapegoat would give the exact same answer if he found out that thousands of Israeli women were being kidnapped and brought to Saudi Arabia as sex slaves and he found out that the police were ignoring this while hunting down and arresting any visitor to the country suspected of having friendly views towards Israel and its policies.

Off topic.

Yawn.

The Israeli police of course, don't ignore crime. And Paul Larudee isn't simply a person "suspected of having friendly views towards Israel and its policies", he's an active leader in an organization caught helping terrorists and affiated with other organizations helping terrorism. Don't be naive..

Allowing kidnapped people to be brought into your country and sold into slavery is terrorism. Israel is practicing it.

"he's an active leader in an organization caught helping terrorists and affiated with other organizations helping terrorism."

Well, I guess if serving tea to a couple of guys that subsequently go out and blow themselves up makes you a terror group, then what does that say about the CIA had bin Laden on the payroll.

When Menachem Begin wanted to visit the United States in the early years of the zionist state (no doubt to ask for money) many people, including John F. Kennedy, opposed letting him visit on the grounds that he was a terrorist.

"Allowed in". Israel doesn't "allow" crime to occur, criminals committ crimes, but your'e choice of phrasing is how we know you're a Hater.

SY: he [Larudee] is an active leader in an organization caught helping terrorists and affiated with other organizations helping terrorism.

Ryan:

"Well, I guess if serving tea to a couple of guys that subsequently go out and blow themselves up makes you a terror group, "

Again he's making allegations with no back up. Surprise. But he does expect the other side to provide all the proof for their claims -- especially links -- while he never does. Only the dullest readers won't notice a pattern here.

"Again he's making allegations with no back up."

I thought it would be acceptable around here, considering it's the M.O. of the forum's zionist lobby.

For instance, the assertion that this arrested piano tuner was a terrorist has yet to be proven, and that's the main theme of this thread.

On the other hand, there was plenty of proof in the case of Begin; he used to boast about his terrorism.

How about blowing up buildings with bombs, murdering civilians, and hanging prisoners of war? Or are these things terrorism only when committed by Arabs or other Muslims?

So its true then, eh? You really don't know much about Irgun, Deir Yassin or the King David Hotel except maybe the British version . Even the deeply ignorant can't post on indymedia. It was the constant hateful ignorance that brought me here.

There is no disagreement among historians and journalists about the atrocities carried out by Begin's Irgun and Shamir's Stern Gang. Even popular pro-zionist books like O Jerusalem used to denounce these things because the books were published before Begin took office in 1977 and it instantly became the duty of apologists for zionism to whitewash his record. The only defenders of Begin's vicious actions can be found among ultra-right wing nut groups in Israel and their demented co-thinkers in other counrtries; it is a good bet that 99 percent of these foreign defenders live in the US.

You still have not told us what your opinion is regarding Israel's poor record (perhaps non-existent record) in cracking down on the "trade" in so-called Natashas.

You're still trolling and baiting off topic; funny considering that the anti-Zionists can start almost any thread not have it hidden in this forum. Your side has lost the debate about Larudee, notwithstanding your friends' penchant to ignore the evidence or discount it.

are the ones who have attempted, pathetically, to defend the terrorist entity of Israel.

Here's your hero in his own words favoring violent action, contrary to the lies being trumpeted by Lunchbox et al:

"Although we are totally dedicated to nonviolence, we recognize not everyone in the Palestinian community is dedicated to nonviolence and under international law *we recognize that violence is necessary and it is permissible* [my own asterisks] for oppressed and occupied people to use armed resistance and we recognize their right to do so." http://www.israellycool.com/blog/_archives/2006/6/6/2010726.html#650310

Furthermore, an eyewitness in Judea-Samaria related, " Violent attacks by the "nonviolent" ISM had already begun when we met. " (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Solidarity_With_Terror.asp, scroll 2/3 down)

your 'links' are hardly impartial.

One can find this kind of reference material from the KKK in the Aryan Nation's website.

Why not Front Page mag/rag or just the ADL or JDL.

Cut out the middle man.

Your Larudee deity is definitely partial. Besides, some of your sources have been shown to be a dip.

Don't worry, in due time I'll serve you dessert from the JDL and kahane.org, etc. All in good time. First finish your meal.

I wonder if the London bombers learned any techniques by studying the King David Hotel operation. Nothing like learning from the masters and pioneers of this kind of thing - the the zionist thugs of fifty or sixty years ago.

Therein lies the rub. Irgun was targetting British military and police personnel, you know, those imperialists you love to hate unless it concerns their presence in the land of Israel. Not to mention the warnings communicated beforehand in KD's case. But hell, why would an anti-Zionist do such pesky details justice when he can simply pull out some event from about 60 years ago to take a swipe at Zionists? It's not like he can rely on recent history to bash Zionists in a similar manner.

I read a little piece on portland IMC today about this guy Lee Kaplan today. When our resident dear Miss Blow Job announced that she was a member of Dafka I had to go out on my own and learn about these thugs. They sound like nuts to me. Here is the piece I read:

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/12/306758.shtml

The part that really struck me was this:

"I think it is time to take a second look at my concept but expand it to include radio, magazines, cable television (cable will accept this type of commercial) and newspapers. The ads should range from the very soft evocative travel type to some hard hitting but subtle political messages. Pretend that Israel is a corporation with a vast market in the United States. Receipts from that market top $6 Billion Dollars ( including US economic and military aid, UJA, Israel Bonds, JNF, plus all the other campaigns from Yeshivas to the Technion). What would you spend to protect a market of that magnitude? One half of one percent would equal $30 million. You can run for president with thirty million dollars. In a wild fantasy, lets say we have that much money. And let's say we hire a talented creative ad man to develop a multi-faceted, multi-media, and multi-year campaign to win the hearts and minds of the American people."

because it reminded me of that pro Israel infomercial that Miss Tia the librarian tried to sell me yesterday:

http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/160324_comment.php#162979

Sounds just like Mr. Kaplan's marketing scheme don't it?

All of these loons appear to be on a mission to sell Israel to the rest of us at all costs. And they appear to be desparate because they see their little marketing scheme failing miserably.

Glad we've got a chance to become privy to his real character within 3 days.

As I like to eliminate superfluous key strokes.

But she is a liar.

And a shill.

Speaking of Ms. BJ Cruz and her comments.

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpWESSEX/Documents/WATLoftusMI6.htm

John Loftus On Fox TV

Claims London Bombings 'Mastermind'

Is MI6 Double Agent

You may wish to read this link.

He calls her BJ, but we all know what a BJ is. Superfluous keystrokes not withstanding. Of course for Becky it has a dual meaning because she's full of hot air as well. Get it? Blow Job ~ full of hot air? Yuck yuck yuck yuck..........

Sure doesn't take long to lapse into misogyny around here.

Sexism is the last refuge of weak men when faced with women they can't control.

Woman hater?

Nah Ms. BJ is not a woman.

She's a shill. In the guise of a woman. I'd have no respect for her as a man either.

If the zionist establishment really didn't approve of Begin's terrorist actions, then how come he was never tried for murder in Israel or extradited so he could be tried elsewhere? And if waring beforehand that he was "soon" going to blow up the hotel made this vicious act somehow morally ok, what was there to deplore in his action, anyway?

Begin and Shamir were leaders of death squads. Twist and turn all you want, zionist apologist, but their records cannot be whitewashed.

FROM: My secret Mossad sources:



From the link posted above:

Jerusalem, 3 June 2003

Details of April 30, 2003 Tel Aviv suicide bombing

(Communicated by the Prime Minister's Media Adviser)

On April 30, 2003, a suicide terrorist blew himself up at the entrance to Mike's Place, a pub/cafe on the Tel Aviv promenade. Three civilians were murdered, and over 50 were wounded in the attack.

The attack was perpetrated by Asif Muhammad Hanif, 22, a British citizen.

A second British citizen, Omar Khan Sharif, 27, married, a resident of Derby, who was also due to have perpetrated a suicide attack, fled the scene. Khan Sharif attempted to detonate the bomb in his possession but the bomb failed to explode. He fled the scene after discarding the bomb. It cannot be ruled out that he was injured by the explosion of the detonator. During his flight, Khan Sharif struggled with a security guard at the David Intercontinental Hotel as he tried to snatch the latter's ID. Khan Sharif's body was positively identified on May 19, 2003, after having washed ashore on the Tel Aviv beachfront on May 12.

Asif Muhammad Hanif's bomb was composed of standard explosives.

The two terrorists reached the scene of the attack from a nearby hotel, in which they had rented a room several hours earlier. Several days earlier, they had spent one night in the same hotel.

Hamas and Fatah's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades have claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

Prior to the attack, the Israel Security Agency (ISA) had received general, unfocused, information that was taken seriously and upon the basis of which, a working assumption was made that a terrorist attack, to be perpetrated somewhere in the center of the country, was being planned. Despite expedited and varied security measures, the security forces were unable to prevent the attack.

Immediately after the attack, the ISA - in cooperation with the Israel Police - began an accelerated and ramified investigation.

An examination of the unexploded bomb discarded by Omar Khan Sharif showed that it had been hidden in a book and contained standard explosives.

A search of the terrorists' hotel room revealed an elastic belt, explosives and a map of the center of Tel Aviv, on which several crowded locales - including Mike's Place - were clearly marked

Following is a record of the terrorists' movements prior to the attack:

# April 12, 2003 - Entry from Jordan, via the Allenby Bridge. The two passed through the security checks. (The treatment of the two terrorists at the Allenby Bridge is currently under investigation by the ISA and other relevant bodies.)

# April 14, 2003 - Hebron; visit to the Tomb of the Patriarchs.

# April 15-20, 2003 - Gaza Strip.

# April 20, 2003 - Stayed in Jerusalem hotel.

# April 21, 2003 - Stayed in hotel near Tel Aviv promenade.

# April 22-23, 2003 - Ramallah.

# April 23-24, 2003 - Nablus.

# April 24-29, 2003 - Gaza Strip.

# April 29, 2003 - Entered Israel a few hours prior to the attack.

The two terrorists were careful to establish their presence in Judea and Samaria by forging links with foreign left wing activists and members of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM).

ISM members take an active part in illegal and violent actions against IDF soldiers. At times, their activity in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip is under the auspices of Palestinian terrorist organizations.

Foreign left wing activists, especially ISM members, who seek entry into Israel, often do so under false pretenses, via cover stories - entry for matrimonial, tourist, religious and otherr purposes - which they coordinate prior to arriving in Israel.

Nasif Diekh, a resident of Naama in the Binyamin area, was arrested and admitted that the two terrorists - with whom he was previously unfamiliar - had asked him, one week prior to the attack, to help them volunteer at the medical center in Ramallah where he was employed. Diekh gave them lodging at the center. Diekh said that the two terrorists had been driven from Ramallah to Nablus by a female Italian journalist and left wing activist.

The Italian journalist - who was detained for questioning on May 4, 2003 - said that on April 23, 2003, she had indeed driven the two terrorists to Nablus. The terrorists told her that they had arrived to study the situation of the Palestinians. The two toured a medical center and a school. In the evening, they returned to Ramallah; the journalist arranged that they would travel to the Gaza Strip the following day.

On April 24, 2003, the terrorists entered the Gaza Strip via the Erez checkpoint, along with the Italian woman journalist and additional Italian journalists, which greatly assisted them in avoiding suspicion at Erez. During their stay in the Gaza Strip, they visited Rafiah and Khan Yunis and met with activists from the various organizations in the Gaza Strip.

After the visit to Gaza, the Italian woman journalist returned to Jerusalem. After the attack, she understood that it was the terrorists who had perpetrated the April 30, 2003 attack who had traveled with her, but made no mention of this to any official body.

None of the persons involved - neither Palestinian nor foreign - bothered to contact any official body, despite their familiarity with the terrorists, even after they understood that they were involved in the attack, until they came under ISA investigation.

It has become clear from the investigation of the Italian journalist that the terrorists exploited foreign left wing activists in the Palestinian Authority (PA) areas for the purpose of covering their movements throughout Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Even though the latter were unwitting, they in effect were accomplices to terrorist activity. This fact requires the security forces to reexamine the issue of the presence of foreign left wing activists and non-governmental organizations in the PA areas in light of the possibility that they are being exploited for terrorist purposes.

The ISA, Israel Police and other security bodies, both in Israel and abroad, are continuing to conduct a sensitive, complex and wide-ranging investigation.

There are additional details which the ISA is not at liberty to divulge lest this impair the ongoing investigation.

The fact that the attack was perpetrated by a foreign national, and that another foreign national was supposed to have perpetrated an additional attack, sharply raises the issue of how to deal with the involvement of foreign nationals - citizens of friendly countries - in terrorist activity designed to maim and murder innocent civilians. This was not the first time that the State of Israel has been the target of foreign terrorists bearing British passports.

This is one of the most disturbing and complicated issues to deal with from a security-intelligence point-of-view, due to the fact that no Western country is capable of providing an effective answer without the full cooperation of all countries that are threatened by Islamic fundamentalist terror.

Due to the seriousness of the threat, as reflected in the April 30, 2003 attack, the entry of foreign nationals into the State of Israel - both via Erez checkpoint and the international crossings - is being reexamined.

BECKY: According to this communique from the Israeli govt., the ISM members may not have known they were being used to cover the activities of the two British suicide bombers. So what was it, you ISM enthusiasts? Did the ISM KNOW and help the British bombers or were the ignorant that they were being used for cover?

Oh yeah, it was a "15-minute encounter."

Dafka sources say that the 2nd suicide bomber who was later found floating in the bay, was likely murdered lest he talk and reveal who set up the attack.

Were these two British citizens ISM members?

Its up to the ISM to prove otherwise. All you have to do is check your list of ISM members in April of 2003 and see if the two men were on there. Oh yeah. The ISM is too stealthy to keep lists of its members!!



So the only way to know if someone is an ISM member is to ask longtime members. That's an unbiased and credible source for you.

As one who was declared a "non-member" from a similar "anarchist" organization, I know ---if no one takes notes, and no records are kept, then the new leaders just make it up as they go.

Conclusion: I must retract my previous statement, that ISM members non-violently bombed Mike's Place. It is unknown whether the bombers were ISM members or not. It is unknown whether the ISM assisted them knowingly or perhaps unwittingly. It is known that they contacted ISM groups, and were helped by an Italian left-wing journalist.



SPECIAL NOTE TO LUNCHBOX:

I am sorry you are so convinced I am a liar. It means you are unlikely to learn anything I have to teach you. But this is a small loss. For already I see that you are an entrenched Israel-hater, and your "I don't really care about this issue" is not exactly the truth either is it?

Not only was he never tried for his crimes, he was elected Prime Minister. It's not terrorists that Israelis hate, it's other people's terrorists.

Not only does nessie never complain when former terrorists in other countries sieze power in said countries, he commends them. It's not all terrorists that nessie hates, it's only Jewish terrorists.

Where? Be specific.

You like my link? Good ,try these.

050712 The London Bombings, Part One: The Footprints of State Terror

http://radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim050712.mp3

050719 The London Bombings, Part Two: Inventing the Scapegoats

http://radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim050719.mp3

050726 Pattern of State Terror: From 9/11 to the London Bombings

http://radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim050726.mp3

050816 The London Bombings, Part Three: Unravelling the

Official Fiction

http://radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim050816.mp3

050823 The London Bombings, Part Four:

The De Menezes Execution - Prelude to the Death-Squad State

http://radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim050823.mp3

050830 After London: Facilitating Martial Law

http://radio4houston.org/takingaim/takingaim050830.mp3

And more at

http://takingaim.info/shows/audio.html

You know it is rather strange that the only bombings were exactly where that familiar agency known as STRATFOR were, during the 'drill' that went 'live'.

Want to know more about STRATFOR?

http://www.stratfor.com/global-intelligence.php

Global Intelligence

Stratfor's online Global Intelligence Service draws on our analysts. network of global intelligence sources as well as our proprietary analytical methodology to bring you insights and forecasts beyond today's headlines. Each day, our geopolitical analysts monitor key political, security and economic trends and issues brewing under the surface, bringing our customers and clients the global intelligence they need to stay ahead of the curve.-

And that was the same in London Netin Yahoo was warned, the British were warned but no one warned the passengers.All sorts of intelligence foot prints there. Tripping over each other.

WTF Sheepdog??? You put MY NAME in your stupid title, make your stupid joke about the "racist" button, and then you put all these links down which have nothing to do with me, racism, or anything relevant to the thread. Does that mean you are dragging my name through the mud just to drag it through the mud??

Do you have any women friends?

Was your mom mean to you?

NOTE TO LUNCHBOX: When you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas. My name is Ms. Johnson to you.

heh heh, it's more like pointing out all the mud dripping from you and your zionazi friends. Swarming this forum.

All busy as pig in sh*t and like your personal patron, 'goated 'Jew' showing all of us what lying, pushy, over baring assholes you are.

zionists = racists

"NOTE TO LUNCHBOX: When you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas. My name is Ms. Johnson to you."

Your name is Mudd as far as I'm concerned because you have very limited credibility with me. You are affilitated with an organization of nuts and whackos (Dafka) and you are a walking/talking billboard/infomercial for zionist apartheid.

I've already caught you in one lie, and that was without even trying hard. You made the blanket statement that the ISM was responsible for the attack on Mike's Place, then you stated that you you did not say that.

So what it sounds like to me is that you have no solid proof, only innuendo and ca-ca from the zionsit propaganda mill. You take those things and use them to drag the name of the ISM through the mud and then cry "foul" and play the victim when Sheepdog points out your blatant hypocrisy. Why? Because you are so blinded by your love for Israel and your hatred for anyone that opposes it's "democracy" (spoken: apartheid).

And let's face it: At least the people who bombed Mike's Place were so dedicated to their cause they were willing to die for it. You on the other hand are not willing to die for yours, only to martyr them for theirs. People like you are so willing to wear out your hammers on the anvil of Palestine it simply amazes me.

You do more to promote their cause then those suicide bombers ever could. Examples? Before you and I crossed paths I had never even heard of the ISM or Mike's Place! But because of the way you've lied and the biased manner in which you have presented the information to me, I can't allocate you even the most basic unit of credibility. And if forced to choose between you/Dafka and the ISM, hands down I would pick the ISM.

Extremists like yo do more to undermine your own agendas than your enemies ever could.

Have a nice day, BJ.

Poor little goosestepper, you can't bear the presence of someone like myself who interrupted your incessant orgy of racist lies and hateful bile. You behave as if you own this forum. Quit wasting oxygen you crypto-Nazi. I've never been a patron to B. Johnson.

Goatboy, you should save all of that hatred and venom for the Palestinian women and children your ilk plans to kill this month. Don't waste your vitriol on Sheepdog, I don't think he is an arab. You need to stay focused. You need to be targeting on slandering the good names of dead Palestinian "trash" that the IDF and Zionists kill this month, lest they become martyrs. You need to get busy because you've got a lot of work to do.

"And if forced to choose between you/Dafka and the ISM, hands down I would pick the ISM. "

Duh, he would have chosen the ISM in any event. That was obvious from the get-go -- he was blatantly anti-Israel and anti-Zionist, even if he wouldn't himself have picked those terms to describe him initial positions. Rather than being dismayed at having some of his tax dollars go to aid Israel, his real problem is Israel's very existence as attested to by the satiric comparison he made with a hypothetical national Cherokee revival and independence movement (re)creating a Cherokee N. Carolina independent entity.



"Because you are so blinded by your love for Israel and your hatred for anyone that opposes it's "democracy" (spoken: apartheid). "

Just like a disciplined anti-Zionist trooper, he keeps on tossing about the apartheid lie knowing it had been debunked a zillion times, also to his own eyes.

I don't care what ethnic group your goosestepping idol Shit Dog belongs to. Just because he and you aren't Arabs, doesn't make you two angels. You're both full of hatist shit and deserve each other.

You're a piece of trash awash with Big Oil financed anti-Israel Arab propaganda and need deprogramming. In the meantime I'm here to counteract professional clowning rabid haters like you.

"Duh, he would have chosen the ISM in any event. That was obvious from the get-go -- he was blatantly anti-Israel and anti-Zionist, even if he wouldn't himself have picked those terms to describe him initial positions."

Boy you Zionists will surely stoop to new lows with each and every post. I have clearly stated that the Israel-Palestine issue has nothing to do with me, other than the fact that I don't like my tax dollars going to prop up an apartheid state. And because of this belief I have been called "racist" and "anti-semetic" and now "anti-Israel" and "anti-Zionist".

And now I have my American Indian heritage belittled by these Zionists. Amazing. Simply amazing.

It is unfathomable the depths to which these Zionist aggressors will sink to prop up their repressive Zionist entity.

Why do you say Apartheid? That's one of the buzz-words of the anti-Israel crowd, and its simply not accurate.

20 % of Israel's population is Arab. Arabic is an official language of Israel. Arab citizens have full rights. They can vote. They have representation in Israel's Parliament (12 seats, I believe). There are joint Arab Israeli run business (the restaurant that was bombed last year was targeted because it was a sucessful example of such a venture).

How is this apatheid?

Why do you claim to be neutral on this topic, when its clear you've already made up your mind?

Lunchbox is playing a clever variation on the typical anti-Zionist of accusing most everyone who criticizes their duplicity of referring to them as "antisemites". Yet I and other non anti-Zionists haven't charged him of being an antisemite or a racist. He's just pulling this accusation out of his posterior to appear injured and elicit sympathy because he's out of legitimate ammo and he knows it. He also knows his supposed relatively petty problem with Israel has been exposed as a cover for his real issue with the Zionist state, which is why he needs to keep spewing the apartheid lie in defiance of the evidence debunking it.

Ryan, the truth hurts. You would've chosen the ISM no matter what any "Zionist" had said or done.

"Why do you say Apartheid? That's one of the buzz-words of the anti-Israel crowd, and its simply not accurate."

South Africa was a colonialist state. Israel is a colonialist state.

The white minority oppressed the black majority in South Africa. The Jewish minority oppresses the Arab majority in the territory of Israel.

The comparisons are endless, and I do not feel like listing them all. I haven't enough hours in the day.

But suffice it to say that tou claim that only 20% of Israel's population is Arab, and that is an outright lie.

What you referring to is the 20% of palestinians that live outside of the occupied terrirtories, that are allowed citizenship and the right to vote.

You fail to mention the rest of the Palestinians that live under Israeli occupation in the west bank and gaza, that are not citizens of any country, nor do they have voting rights in Israel.

Yet they are subjected to the laws and policies of the Israeli government and military.

They are routinely humiliated and harrassed at Israeli "security" checkpoints, denied basic human essentials such as water (which is controlled by the Zionists), and are treated with detest and disrespect by the Jews in general.

That is apartheid.

If you want any respect from me, then include those people in your denials of why you fail to recognize Israel as an apartheid state.

"Why do you say Apartheid? That's one of the buzz-words of the anti-Israel crowd, and its simply not accurate."

South Africa was a colonialist state. Israel is a colonialist state.

No: From Wikipedia:

In politics and in history, a colony is a territory under the immediate political control of a geographically-distant state.

What country is Israel a territory of?

The white minority oppressed the black majority in South Africa. The Jewish minority oppresses the Arab majority in the territory of Israel.

There are laws to protect the Arab citizens of Israel. Jews are a majority in Israel. If you believe otherwise, give me the population statistics.

But suffice it to say that tou claim that only 20% of Israel's population is Arab, and that is an outright lie.

Its true. Do you want urls?

What you referring to is the 20% of palestinians that live outside of the occupied terrirtories, that are allowed citizenship and the right to vote.

Ah. But they are not citizens. What other country in the world gives voting rights to non-citizens?

You fail to mention the rest of the Palestinians that live under Israeli occupation in the west bank and gaza, that are not citizens of any country, nor do they have voting rights in Israel.

Gaza is not under occupation. The territories are under Palestinian control. They have their own elections. (remember, they elected Hamas?). They don't want to be part of Israel. And Israel has offered them statehood multiple times.

Yet they are subjected to the laws and policies of the Israeli government and military.

Choices have consequences. When the terrorism stops, things will change. Thats part of the Road map. Israel isn't in this unilateraly. They need apartner working for peace with them.

Lunchbox, do you know just what was offered at Camp David?

As an aside, I missed the part where he mendaciously accused me of belittling his Cherokee heritage. This just bolsters the fact of his abysmal lack of credibility.

As to his allegations. He charges that Israel is "strikingly similar to South African apartheid." But the evidence he gives for this argument is laughable:

1. "South Africa was a colonialist state. Israel is a colonialist state. "

S.A was led by colonial white oppressors who had had no legally valid claim to the lands they took over. Israel by contrast can invoke int'l law to justify its administration of Judea-Samaria aka the West Bank. It had never been Palestinian land; Arabs never exclusively inhabited it save for 1948-1967 after it was ethnically cleansed of its last Jewish inhabitants by the Jordanian and Egyptian goons; most of the land there still isn't owned by Palestinians; much of it isn't even inhabited. Not to mention that this territory had witnessed an unbroken Jewish presence since the last attempt at restoration of Jewish independence was crushed in 135 AD, way before Arabs migrated there in notable numbers.

Therefore, Israeli residential areas in Judea-Samaria aren't colonies.

2. "The white minority oppressed the black majority in South Africa. The Jewish minority oppresses the Arab majority in the territory of Israel. "

This is another blatant lie. There's a Jewish majority (5,44 million Jews) and a non-Jewish minority (some 1.3 million non-Jews, mostly Arabs). This is easily verified on the 'net, notably in the Israel bearu of statistics website. But don't count on Lunchbox to give a damn about the truth. His real purpose here is to spout anti-Israel propaganda. He also doesn't try to enlighten which form/s that "oppression" takes.

3. "The comparisons are endless, and I do not feel like listing them all. I haven't enough hours in the day. "

Translation: I only have time to spew my anti-Israel propaganda lies and do not care for the truth.

4. "But suffice it to say that tou claim that only 20% of Israel's population is Arab, and that is an outright lie. "

Suffice to laugh at you and dismiss you as a liar. A lying clown.

5. "What you referring to is the 20% of palestinians that live outside of the occupied terrirtories, that are allowed citizenship and the right to vote. "

They're allowed much more, like freedoms of expression, assembly, religion, etc.

6. "You fail to mention the rest of the Palestinians that live under Israeli occupation in the west bank and gaza, that are not citizens of any country, nor do they have voting rights in Israel. "

(a) Bozo, there's no more Israeli "occupation" in Gaza.

(b) Those Palis aren't Israeli citizens but Palestinian and Jordanian citizens. That's right, many of them still retain their Jordanian passport.



7. "Yet they are subjected to the laws and policies of the Israeli government and military. "

Usually when they set out to harm Israelis or aid those of their brethren that aim to do so. Otherwise the Israeli gov. doesn't usually bother them. Any further problems are invariably the result of the existence of the terrorist groups like Hamas, al-Aqsa, IJ, PFLP, etc.



8. "They are routinely... denied basic human essentials such as water (which is controlled by the Zionists),"

This is lying crap for the vast part. There's been a problem with some Israeli towns illegally overtaking water resources, yet it is a lie to argue the Israelis as a rule deny the Palis bare human essentials.



9. " and [the Palis] are treated with detest and disrespect by the Jews in general. "

That's only a consequence of the fact the majority among Palestinians support genocide and terror as attested by their voting the genocidal Nazi-like party Hamas into power, something which doesn't seem to disturb you in the least.

Sigh...

When you believe you control the public perception with your Big Israeli Oil Interests, it is only natural that 'you' would believe that your denial and inventions of reality, are anything but a sick tired joke.

Does anyone not a rabid zionist programed from early childhood, buy this crap?

Palestine invaded no country.

The indigenous population has been driven by force into expulsion or overcrowded ghettos where their life is a constant hell of incidental and directed military assault.

Like what they do here, fortunately, w/o the tanks, helicopters and gunboats.

All they can do is lie.

And deny.

"Yet they are subjected to the laws and policies of the Israeli government and military."

"Choices have consequences. When the terrorism stops, things will change. Thats part of the Road map. Israel isn't in this unilateraly. They need apartner working for peace with them."

I think "apartner"(sic) was a Freudian slip here. I think what your subconscious intended to type was "apartHEID".

The rest of your response is obfuscation and fluff. I like how you claim that Gaza is not occupied, but conveniently fail to address the West Bank. To me that is funny.

They you ask "what country in the world gives voting rights to citizens?" without acknowledging that the "country" of Israel was formed by systematically dispossessing Palestinian people of their land, colonizing it with Jews from all over the globe, declaring themselves "the majority", giving themselves "citizenship", and calling themselves "a democracy". Laughable, indeed.

If I move into your house and force you to live in a tent in the backyard can I declare myself a democracy?

In any event, you acknowledge that the Palestinians who are not citizens of Israel are still subjected to the laws and policies of of the Israeli government and it's military.

Please tell me how that is democracy and not apartheid?

You'll enjoy much better credibility if or when you start admitting the Palis have been less than perfect, as I have the intestinal fortitude to admit Israeli misbehavior. Until such time you can do that, I dismiss you as a minion for pertoldollar funded anti-Israel propaganda with more than a few anti-Jewish streaks who's bothered by my ability to refute the hell out of his new worshipper, Ryan.

"Palestine invaded no country. "

The sheer comic quality of this nonsense... as if Palestine ever existed a s a country or a nation back in 1948 or 1967.



"All they can do is lie. ngah ngah"

How dare they refute anti-Zionist drivel?!

petulant bobo, you're still doing it.

But with diminishing rational.

" nahh nahh"

For you, that was very well put, Mr. 'goated 'Jew'.

No one but yer little band of weasels even believe 'you'.

"as I have the intestinal fortitude to admit Israeli misbehavior."

Where? Show me. I have not seen this from you.

You want credibility show me where you've acknowledged Israel's complicity in their own problems.

"They [sic] you ask "what country in the world gives voting rights to citizens?" without acknowledging that the "country" of Israel was formed by systematically dispossessing Palestinian people of their land, "

In the course of Israel's 1948-49 independence war, Arabs were only forced out mainly from *two places of residence*, the cities *Ramle and Lydda*. So much for "systematic dispossession". I hope you're not lying at least on this one, but I'm not betting the farm on it.



"colonizing it with Jews from all over the globe,"

In the entire territory of Israel proper Arabs only owned about 3% of land. But if you're a card carrying Israel basher or a misinformed soul, you'll definitely strive to describe the Jewish immigration to Israel as colonization.

Ryan doesn't seem to know, nor cares that Israel has repatriated some 170,000 Arabs since 1949.

"Ryan doesn't seem to know, nor cares that Israel has repatriated some 170,000 Arabs since 1949."

It's a drop in the bucket when you consider there are currently more than 3.7 MILLION refugees registered with UNRWA.

Apartheid.

"(a) Bozo, there's no more Israeli "occupation" in Gaza."

http://www.un.org/unrwa/news/releases/pr-2006/GazaKillings.pdf

It means a lot, you arch-liar, because many if not most Arab refugees had left to neighboring Arab countries at the urging of their rulers and the Arab High Command at the time, after being promised to return within days or weeks once the Arab armies crushed the Jews and drove them out. Ever since, those governments, save for Jordan's, haven't allowed them to nationalize in their countries and rehabilitate their lives and locked them into refugee camps. The same was true for the PA under Yasser Arafat. You'd have everyone believe the Palis are the only people or ethnic group on earth that deserve hereditary refugee status. You overlook the fact no other refugee problem has been allowed to fester or be perpetuated anywhere else across the globe; you want an exception to be made for the Palestinians alone.

I don't care how many UNRWA registers. Back in 1948 only people 700,000 became refugees, at most. All the parroting of "apartheid" won't change these facts.

Apparently Zionists like to blame the victims for their pitiable apartheid state. If all of those Arabs had not freely left Israel, I suppose, they'd all be citizens of Israel today. At least that's what Goatscaper would have you believe.

Hey Goatscaper, I thought you were going to point me to some of your scathing critiques of that apartheid state of yours?

Aerial or artillery barrages toward, and even sound booms over a certain land mass are no indication of occupation except to desperate anti-Zionists (among others).

If that's the evidence you can put forth to desperately cling to such a nonsensical accusation, you're in no danger of being taken seriously whatsoever. You've just drifted further away from zero with your neg. cred.

So military assaults on Gaza resulting in dead women and children doesn't constitute terrorism or occupation in the mind of a Zionist. Tell us something new.

How about those scathing critiques? Any day now!

Oh, let me guess. You lied about that one, and now called on it, you're going to ignore the requests for proof of your claims? Typical Zionist.

Looks like now that I've caught you in an outright lie, I can relegated you to the liar's den with Becky "the liar" Johnson. At least you'll have someone to talk to!

You mean the Arab governments and the rulership among the local Arabs of then and now (then it was represented by the Arab High Command, more recently by the Fatah-led PLO and lately Hamas) are the victims in this conflict? You're absolutely hilarious. And I'm not even branding you emotionally deranged like someone else did in another thread.

If those Arabs in 1948 hadn't left what's today Israel proper, it'd be reasonable that they would've been given Israeli citizenship. Is your best argument against this probable scenario is to just dismiss it out of hand?

As to the scathing critiques, I've already made them. Watching you trip in the mud numerous times as you go is the best comic relief I've experienced so far on this site.

He claims to have made criticisms of Israel, but we'll never see them. Because he hasn't. He's just another lying Zionist troll, not worthy of acknowledgment. I am done with you Goatscaper. Caught in your lie, you now haven't a shred of credibility. You laugh at the murders of women and children in Gaza. By your own admission there are more than 600,000 Palestinian refugees that Israel refuses to repatriate. You are a joke, full of your own flatulence. I don't see any reason for us to continue this dialogue. You are not worthy of my time.

Good bye.

"So military assaults on Gaza resulting in dead women and children doesn't constitute terrorism or occupation in the mind of a Zionist. Tell us something new. "

I'll try being original, though it's hard to come up with a new twist on calling BS on you.

Firstly, whether (an) Israeli shell(s) was/were responsible for the unfortunate death of those women and children is still under investigation and far from being conclusive. It may have been a Palestinian "work accident" in which terrorist ammo destined to murder Israelis exploded prematurely.

Secondly, military reprisals directed at your favorite genocidal terrorists in which the aforementioned unfortunate collateral damage occurs aren't "military assaults on Gaza", nor terrorism nor occupation, except to professional Israel bashers and gullible folks who have their definitions mixed up.

Now who'll emerge as the foremost resident anti-Zionist lying clown? You, your idol Sheep or 'nessie'?

"He claims to have made criticisms of Israel, but we'll never see them. Because he hasn't. "

He ignores the criticism I made of some Israeli residential areas in Judea-Samaria and pretends it's not there because he's not here in the name of fair debate. He's here to troll and mock some of the posters fro the other side. He prefers to ignore all the evidence refuting various claims he's made and cling to the lies and repeat them. A person who's merely bothered that some of his tax money finances Israel doesn't go to such lengths to rebel against obvious facts that can be checked out on the www. So one logical consequence for him is to brand me a liar and devoid of credibility, apart from falsely accusing me of laughing at children and women's deaths.

" By your own admission there are more than 600,000 Palestinian refugees that Israel refuses to repatriate. "

If the top realistic figure back in 1948 was 700,000 refugees and Israel has repatriated some 170,000, how he's arrived at "more than 600,000" is probably due to him being emotionally deranged. Either that or he can't do the most basic math. Either way he's a joke.



"I don't see any reason for us to continue this dialogue. You are not worthy of my time. "

Translation: the real facts aren't worthy of his time.

"whether (an) Israeli shell(s) was/were responsible for the unfortunate death of those women and children is still under investigation and far from being conclusive. It may have been a Palestinian "work accident" in which terrorist ammo destined to murder Israelis exploded prematurely."

How convenient it must be to be able to blame the victim for Israel having murdered them. These people were picnicking on the beach, and somehow the Zionists would like to make them out to be terrorists working a in bomb factory.

Have you no shame, Zionists?

Jewed Goatscaper wrote:

"apart from falsely accusing me of laughing at children and women's deaths."

After he wrote:

"Thanks for the PDF-induced laugh"

In reference to this:

http://www.un.org/unrwa/news/releases/pr-2006/GazaKillings.pdf

Which is a .pdf file from the UN sanctioned agency UNRWA, decrying and censuring Israel for it's brutal murder of Palestinian picnickers Friday on the beach in Gaza. Women and children were killed, apparently according to our Zionist troll, while making bombs in a terrorist bomb factory.

Now tell us more about how credible you are, troll.

"If the top realistic figure back in 1948 was 700,000 refugees and Israel has repatriated some 170,000, how he's arrived at "more than 600,000" is probably due to him being emotionally deranged. Either that or he can't do the most basic math. Either way he's a joke."

Jews all the time claim that six million of their own died in the holocaust when evidence of only a few hundred thousand can be shown.

You've seen the post on the other thread? Read http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2006/06/163213_comment.php#163640. Isn't it convenient to you to ignore the truth in favor of your fanatical Israel bashing cause?

You're a major asshole. However, you're an asset for Zionists in that you help further endowing your anti-Zionist cause with yet more neg cred in the general public's view.

When I said PDF-induced laugh, the intention was the file's content failed miserably at establishing your claim that the Gaza strip is under Israeli occupation nowadays.

As an aside, you're okay with the Nazi boy scumbag's post above?

"When I said PDF-induced laugh, the intention was the file's content failed miserably at establishing your claim that the Gaza strip is under Israeli occupation nowadays."

Nice disclaimer and back peddling. So the content of a .pdf that decries and blames Israel for the murder of women and chilren induces laughter from you. How ironic. Nothing new.

And the post in the other thread that claims these women and children that were blown up while picnicking on the beach were actually Palestinian terrorists in a bomb making factory is truly laughble. Not to mention the fact that no link was provided to the source for fact checking.

"As an aside, you're okay with the Nazi boy scumbag's post above?"

You can't blame me because your side attracts holocaust deniers like flies to a turd. Your refusal to acknowledge the truth about the Zionist entity of Israel, obfuscations, denigrations, and blatant prevarications that you use brings it all on yourself. Don't be surprised when the Nazis really do start pouring out of the woodwork like cockroaches to infest your house.

1. I wasn't the person that posted the report.

2. You obviously have "no time" (wink wink) to search for the story on the 'net yourself. Well, I'm not in a mood to go fetching for someone like you.

" They need apartner working for peace with them."

I think "apartner"(sic) was a Freudian slip here. I think what your subconscious intended to type was "apartHEID".

It was 7 am here. I'm only so coherent at 7 am without my first cup of coffee. I'm only so coherent in general....even after my first cup of coffee.

The rest of your response is obfuscation and fluff.

Fluff is my specialty. For intellectualism you need to go elsewhere. Try Gehrig or SJ or Yid or Becky. I'm fluffy. That's by nature. A leopard can't change its fluff.



I like how you claim that Gaza is not occupied, but conveniently fail to address the West Bank. To me that is funny.

Do you remember the provisions of the road map for peace? The Road Map makes demands on both the Israelis and the Palestinians.

"The Palestinians have accepted the plan and have taken some steps called for in the plan—primarily related to the "institution-building" clauses of the plan (e.g. the appointment of a Prime Minister and elections)—they have yet to carry out the "security" clauses of the plan. Armed with illegal weapons, members of terrorist groups sworn to Israel’s destruction roam Palestinian cities with apparent impunity. Mortars and Kassam rockets continue to be launched from Gaza into Israel. The Palestinian security apparatus appears to be undertaking scant, if any, effort to arrest terrorists conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis. Israel has also agreed to the plan, but made clear that it expects "both at the commencement of and during the process, and as a condition to its continuance, calm will be maintained" by the Palestinians."

They you ask "what country in the world gives voting rights to citizens?" without acknowledging that the "country" of Israel was formed by systematically dispossessing Palestinian people of their land,

No. There has been a continuing Jewish presence in the land for over 3,000 years. All-purpose example : Ever hear of Jesus? King of the Jews? About 2,000 years ago?

colonizing it with Jews from all over the globe, declaring themselves "the majority", giving themselves "citizenship", and calling themselves "a democracy".

There are people who claim ancestory from over 57 nations who live in Israel. You never answered my first question. What is Israel a colony of? 57% of Israels are descended from North Africans. Does that make Israel a colony of North Africa? By what definition is Israel a colony, and a colony of what?

Laughable, indeed.

If I move into your house and force you to live in a tent in the backyard can I declare myself a democracy?

If you are squatting in an empty home, and someone buys it and evicts you, what rights do you have? The returning Jews bought the land, largely from absentee overseas landholders. If you are a renter, and soemone buys your rental property and wants to move in, what rights do you have?

Lunchbox, I'm not sure you actually know the history of the region, historic or recent. Would it help to go over it? I do a bit of street rallies, and I'v e spoken to many people who tell me that Israel invaded the nation of Palestine in 196. Do you believe that, too?

In any event, you acknowledge that the Palestinians who are not citizens of Israel are still subjected to the laws and policies of of the Israeli government and it's military.

I do wish Israel hadn't waited for so long to decide what to do with these areas. Israel has the right to secure and defend its borders. If I go to Mexico or to England or to Malaysia or to Saudi Arabia I am subject to its laws and policies. Of course, I couldn't go to Saudi Arabia because they don't let Jews in.

Please tell me how that is democracy and not apartheid?

Check out the Wikipedia definition of apatheid.

Israel doesn't fit

"Under apartheid, the races – classified by law into White, Black, Indian, and Coloured groups – were separated, the Blacks with their own homelands and all the groups with their own institutions. "

There was an article on indymedia a while back about a Palestinian girl being treated at Hadassah hospital- the same hospital that Sharon was being treated at. Would that have happened in apartheid South Africa? Would that have happened in the Jim Crow south?

You're effectively claiming that we deserve the Holocaust denial aimed at us by neo-Nazis because we refuse to agree with your Israel bashing lies.

Is the cat finally coming out of the bag? Is there an ulterior anti-Jewish motive underlying this Lunchbox sod's rabid Israel bashing agenda? I for one do not rule out this possibility. It seems plausable.

"You're effectively claiming that we deserve the Holocaust denial aimed at us by neo-Nazis because we refuse to agree with your Israel bashing lies. Is the cat finally coming out of the bag? Is there an ulterior anti-Jewish motive underlying this Lunchbox sod's rabid Israel bashing agenda? I for one do not rule out this possibility. It seems plausable."

So because I don't agree with Zionist apartheid, I am racist, anti-semetic, and a holocaust denier in the eyes of the Zionist. Imagine that.

Next they will be branding me with an iron and shipping me off to a concentation camp.

Of course they won't call it a "concentration camp". Probably call it a "re-education" camp, because Goatscaper already said I was brainwashed on leftist kool-aid and needed to be re-educated.

and a lowlife asshole who claims Israeli Jews deserve to be subjected to Holocausr denial. You're the latter. Hope this helps.

I know you can read, Jew. You're not dumb, you're just a kiniving Jewish prick and a liar to boot. I never claimed that Jews deserved to be subjected to holocaust denier propaganda, I merely pointed out that your dirty methods bring it on yourself. If you have a problem with that then maybe you should change your ways.

I've caught both you and Becky Johnson in outright lies now, and in my book that makes you no better than the holocaust deniers.

You ought to try honesty for a change. THe truth is not always your enemy you know.

the veil drops and Ryan's inner anti-semite is revealed clearly. Anti-semites ALWAYS blames Jews for causing anti-semtism.

"I know you can read, Jew.

You're just a kiniving Jewish prick and a liar to boot"

You aren't sounding neutral at all, here....You don't sound like someone visiting for dialog and discourse or information, either. Seems like you've got your own agenda here, and you weren't being honest with us at all.

There's White trash. And then there's also Native American trash. You're the first Native American I can confidently identify as belonging to that despicable sector. You're deranged lying filth.

Hello Tia. I see you're back up and broadcasting again today.

No, I am no longer unbiased. Your tribe has lead me to conclude that Zionists are liars and miscreants who routinely pervert the truth, and as a consequence I am left no choice but to side with the anti-zionists.

You people are doing a fine job in marginalizing yourselves.

Congratulations.

Can a Jew stoop any lower?

You're a serious blight on that lovely heritage. Sadly, I must conclude that you're even less worthy of living than 'nessie' as you've descended even lower than he. But I only *wish* for Lee Doyle's death and will never try to actively murder him. Same for you, even if you manifest your antisemitism in an unmistakable way by asking whether *a Jew* can go lower.

You're the one that said touted your Jewism, not me. Now either you're a Jew or you are not a Jew. Which is it?

If you're a Jew then why are you so ashamed of it? Why, when I call you a Jew, do you not stand up and be proud of that? Why do you have to act like a victim and claim racism when I call you what you claim to be?

You sit there and slander my American Indian heritage and then play the victim, claiming that I, a member of perhaps one of the most subjugated ethnic groups in the history of mankind (American Indians) am racist and bigoted for calling you what you yourself claim to be!

That really makes sense, Jew.

So I don't see what you're fussing about.

The unfortunate facts are as follows:

1. There are some Jewish pricks like Norman Finkelstein and Gilad Atzmon whom you worship.

2. There are some African-American pricks.

3. There are some Native American pricks, like you.

And so on for other races or ethnic groups.



You're full of shit, inflammatory and otherwise.

I don't know about any Lee Doyle, nessie, or where any of that rant about you not actively seeking to murder people has to do with this dialogue or me for that matter. It's pretty surreal that you would even state something random like that. You're wishing for the death of some guy name Lee Doyle and putting me in the same category is a bit unnerving. Sounds like you are a complete whacko and could go off the deep end at any moment. Perhaps you really need to seek some psychiatric treatment.

And I don't know who Norman Finkelstein and Gilad Atzmon are either. As I've stated numerous times, I could not care less about the Israel-Palestine quagmire. It is just the reoccuring theme of this forum you Jewish trolls manifest day in and day out, and I am merely stating the facts as a once impartial observer.

Of course I am no longer impartial at this point, this due to the ham-fisted lying and blatant obfuscation of you resident Zion loonies.

Mr. 'goated 'Jew' is not a Jew.

Just a major asshole playing one. Lift up the Jewishness and you'll see another nazi.

One who would sacrifice Jews all over the world to achieve his agenda.

History repeats itself.

Nice try . You've had an agenda from Day one.

Its rude as well as racist to call someone "Jew". You know that.

Its also bigoted and unfair to ascribe individual characteristics to an entire group.

Has anyone mentioned that Becky isn't Jewish, BTW?

As far as I can tell his actual name is Lee Doyle. Some hold it to be Patrick. If you don't know 'nessie' in the manner in which he has been posting here and referred to by Zionists since you arrived, than maybe you don't know your family name either.

"Its rude as well as racist to call someone "Jew". You know that."

He calls himself a Jew! His name is "Scapegoated Jew".

So he can refer to himself as a Jew, but no one else can without being rude. That's absurd.

It must be like that nigger/nigga thing that African Americans do. "We can call ourselves niggas, but no one else can."

I gotta come up with one of those for us American Indians.

Tia, get bent.

I was referring in specific to Mr. 'goated'Jew"

And who was ascribing sh*t to an entire group?

That's your tactic.

As in the conflation of zionism and Judaism.

In honor of his goosestepping Native American boot licker, he repeats the insane charge that I'm not Jewish. I wouldn't at all be astounded if someone revealed this uebermensch Palinazi to be in close contacts with neo-Nazis himself in which he has studiously assimilated one of their pet racist rhetorical tactics of insisting one uppity Jew isn't actually Jewish.

This much is clear: Shit Dog would sacrifice the Palis on the altar of his antisemitically tainted destroy agenda.

Norman Finkelstein and Gilad Atzmon: Jews who don't support the state of Israel.

"Jew" and Zionist are not interchangible.

I believe a Zionist is one who believes in the right of the Jewish people to self determination in their ancient homeland. Other people define it differently. Becky does not consider herself a Zionist, for example.

Jews are not a race. Anyone can become a Jew. Are you too young to remember Sammy Davis Junior? He was a Jew. He was also African American.

Jews are a people. My brother is a Tibetan Buddhist. He is also a Jew. (This confuses our parents greatly)

Jews come in all colors. There are black Jews from Ethiopia. There are brown Jews from Yemen. Race implies there is DNA involved- and there is none in defining Judiasm.

I couldn't say that "being Jewish" means you are part of a coherent religion, either....I know people who say "i am Jewish but I'm an atheist'. Its more of an ethnic identity. The Jews are a people. We share a common history and a common culture.

Does that clarify matters for you?

Now that you mention it, Sheepdog, he's doing far more damage to his Jewish "bretheren" than he is doing good.

The only explanation is that he is a cloaked white nationalist or some other sort of racist attempting to impune the name of good Jewish people in general.

Makes sense too because he has repeatedly attacked my American Indian heritage which would be in keeping with the agendas of a white nationalist.

It makes sense Tia, but I think you should explain that to scapegoated Jew. He thinks I am racist and anti-semetic because I don't agree with zionism in principle.

By your explanation I hardly see how I could be racists or biggoted against Jews in any way, because being Jewish is apparently a very squishy thing, not easily boxed it.

I also don't even see how the term anti-semetic could carry much validity being that semites encompass some Jews and many Arabs as well. I couldn't possibly be anti-semetic, because I don't even know very many of those people, and in any event, too few to hate the group as a whole.

Firstly, N. Finkelstein and Gilad Atzmon are not merely anti-Zionist. They are antisemitic Jews. Should we expect Ryan to pull the crap of pretending to be astounded that some Jews can be antisemitic? I mean, some Blacks say anti-Black stuff on occasion.

Secondly, it's be helpful to clarify to Ryan about Jewishness. It's like this:

In some Jewish denominations, one can be Jewish and simultaneously belong to another religion or believe other gods beside YHWH. However in the Orthodox and Kara'ite denominations one may only be Jewish if they believe in YHWH alone and do NOT belong to another religious group. Hopefully this will preempt any confusion our racist Ryan might run into.



Tia -- maybe you want to try explaining what I've just told Ryan to your parents.

A few years back, the Palestinian authority hired a PR firm to reformulate their cause. It was recommended that they begin using the rhetoric of the civil rights movement to advance their agenda. They actually held training seminars for people on the new uses of language. And its been very sucessful. And now people like you are convinced, in spite of a 3,000 year presence in Israel , that Jews are a relatively new arrival to Israel.

(Here's a hint- ever hear of Jesus- he was born about 2,000 years in Bethlehem? Jewish carpenter? )

All colors of the Zionist political spectrum are represented here. We do not all speak with one voice. Have you figured that out yet?

Lets compare. As a Native American, do you speak the indigenous language? Do you practice a Native American religion? Do you attend and paricipate in Native American events?

As both 100% American and 100% Jewish, I do all of the above for my tribe.

"He thinks I am racist and anti-semetic because I don't agree with zionism in principle. "

You're a crock of shit lying with a bald face.

"I also don't even see how the term anti-semetic could carry much validity being that semites encompass some Jews and many Arabs as well. I couldn't possibly be anti-semetic, because I don't even know very many of those people, and in any event, too few to hate the group as a whole. "

Please read the clause Etymology and usage for this term at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-semitism#Etymology_and_usage. Hopefully this will lift the etymological mist for you.

It makes sense Tia, but I think you should explain that to scapegoated Jew. He thinks I am racist and anti-semetic because I don't agree with zionism in principle.

I don't think thats why he has that opinion.

By your explanation I hardly see how I could be racists or biggoted against Jews in any way, because being Jewish is apparently a very squishy thing, not easily boxed it.

Very squishy, indeed. The Nazi's were perfectly happy to kill anyone with a Jewish ancestors, regardless of their level of observence, or degree of faith. They trolled with a wide net. The ultra Orthodox define "who is Jewish?" with a tighter rein than most. There isn't a great deal of agreement amongst the Jews themselves. I'm ok saying "if you indentify as a Jew, then you are probably a Jew" . I bet most would not agree with me. But anyone can become Jewish. Its not an exclusive club. No DNA necessary.

I also don't even see how the term anti-semetic could carry much validity being that semites encompass some Jews and many Arabs as well. I couldn't possibly be anti-semetic,

Yid- are you there? Want to handle this one? You've done it before, and better than I....

because I don't even know very many of those people, and in any event, too few to hate the group as a whole.

Keep an open mind. The Jews that you are "meeting" here are not necessarily a representative sample. Most American Jews are twice a year Jews- they celebrate holidays and eat Jewish foods. The ones you see here have , uh...much stronger identities

"And now people like you are convinced, in spite of a 3,000 year presence in Israel , that Jews are a relatively new arrival to Israel."

Falling back to the infomercial and selling Zionism.

I tell you what Tia, if you want me to buy this little jewel then you need to post something for me. Here's what I want you to post:

I want you to post for me the percentage of Jews that currently reside in Israel that were indigenous to that land before it was formally granted statehood.

And I want this percentage backed up with a credible source. And hopefully, for the sake of your argument, it is a very big percentage. But I highly doubt that is the case.

And in the absence of you providing this proof I will be forced to relegate you to the liar's den with BJ and Scapegoated Jew.

You gotta love how he tries to dictate the terms of debate and threatens consequences if the opposite side doesn't meet them.

It's obfuscation to claim that just because Jews lived on the land before the state of Israel came to be that Zionism is justified and that all Jews from all corners of the Earth can lay claim to that land.

Which circles back to Tia's explananation of what a Jew is. Tia said that "anyone can be a Jew" and the pro-Zionist crowd all nod in agreement. So if I, an individual of American indian descent, today claim to be a Jew, does that mean I can lay claim to the land that is now Israel? The notion is absurd.

And the bottom line is that the vast majority of Jews that today reside on the land know as Israel, those Jews have no more claim to that land than I would if I were to take up Judaism this afternoon.

So trying to sell me Zionism using such logic is absurd. Simply absurd. No informed person with a shred of intelligence is going to buy it. And you're going to totally them off by trying to feed them bullshit. They're going to turn on you. You're going to further marginalize yourselves with such lies.

I want you to post for me the percentage of Jews that currently reside in Israel that were indigenous to that land before it was formally granted statehood.

So you want the % Jewish population of pre-1948 Israel? I'm seeing statistics that as of 1948, 35% of the Jews were born in the land. But this figure alone isn't enough- without knowing the history of the area.

Incidently, I'm not sure if you know this- but a Palestinian is defined by the UN as any Arab living in the area from 1946 on. They could have been from Egypt, or Syria, or anywhere...it doesn't matter. The legal definition based on residency, not native birth, from 1946 on.

Another fact that most Americans don't know- In the years following Israel's statehood, over 850,000 Jews who had been living in Arab lands (for generations) were expelled, many with just the clothes on their back.

Many of them found a home in Israel afterwards.

Another thing most Americans don't know- Palestinian refugee status is actually inherited- you can be a third generation American citizen and still be considered a Palestinian refugee .

And in the absence of you providing this proof I will be forced to relegate you to the liar's den with BJ and Scapegoated Jew.

They are excellent company. I'd be honored to be in the same den with them. As long as they bring snacks. Chips Ahoy will be just fine with me.

"So you want the % Jewish population of pre-1948 Israel?"

No. I want exactly what I asked for. I don't know if you have a reading comprehension problem, but being that you're a librarian I would hope that isn't the case.

1. You never responded re: "lets compare"

2. "Anti-semite" was made up in Germany during the Victorian era when the old phrase, "Juden haas" or Jew hatred was deemed too coarse for the parlor. It has never had anything to do withthe linguisitic grouping of semitic languages.

3. It is silly to take one snap shot in history and determine that moment is when statisics counted. Pre-1880 and Zionism, Jews had been ethnically cleansed, although never completely so, from what is today Israel, most recently by the invading Arab and Turkish armies. That doesn't mean that one counts only the invaders and not the ethnically cleansed indigeneous. Although it is an open group, and anyone can join, the Jewish people as a whole are a distinct ethnicity with ancient and continuing ties to our place.

You're very tricky, Tia. After rereading my request I can see you seized on the opportunity to obfuscate. I will change one word:

"I want you to post for me the percentage of Jews that currently reside in Israel that [are] {changed from "were"} indigenous to that land [from] before it was formally granted statehood."

Now obfuscate me up an answer.

"I want you to post for me the percentage of Jews that currently reside in Israel that were indigenous to that land before it was formally granted statehood"



So what you want to know is how many Israelis are still alive today who were part of pre-state Israel? I don't know any census data that would make this level of distinction, but I will check. SJ- do you?

You deserve the compliment for your latest comment. Unfortunately Ryan seems to be ignoring our latest posts and is engaging in yet another of his lopsided gambits in an effort to duck the evidence that shines a ridiculous light on his one-sidedness. "Impartiality"...like hell.

Kudos for diffusing the tension, too!

I think it is quite clear what I am asking you for. I am no linguistics major, which should be obvious to a paid propagandist like you, since I even ended my previous sentence in a preposition. But you know what information I was requestion; you're just playing dumb and trying to be cute. But it's not scoring any points.

It's become readily apparent that Sheepdog is right about all of you forum Zionists. I'm sorry to inform you that you've all managed to marginalize yourselves pretty well in the mind of this impartial observer. I can tell you that because of you all I will most likely vote for candidates that promise to cut aid to Israel in coming elections.

I don't think that is what you've all hoped to achieve here, but that is the net result of it. If you are all really vehement anti-Zionists and If that has really been your goal all along, then I'd have to give you all prizes for some of the most convincing and manipulative acting I have ever witnessed in my life.

Kudos for diffusing the tension, too!

How about some help in KEEPING the tension level down, then?

He defiantly refuses to edify himself because he knows he'll have to get confused and then alter some of his views if he deals honestly with the material.

he had an agenda from the moment he logged on. I don't doubt it.

I can't find any stats re: people who were around prior to 1948 who are still alive . Any ideas?

I figured I should search in Hebrew and I've come darn close, but haven't found the percentage of native Israeli Jews in 1948 still around today.

You knw, this Ryan has got to be the sloppiest anti-Zionist when it comes to covering his tracks and hiding real biases.

One webpage states the percentage of indigenous Israeli Jews for 1961 was 37.8%. But it's in Hebrew and that datum can only be read on the Google hits page because a subscription is required to access the whole webpage. Nevertheless it goes like this:

ב-1961 היה אחוז ילידי ישראל 37.8%

For translation I can only suggest the terribly flawed http://www.nazgol.co.il/site1/index.asp?flg=1 for Hebrew illiterates.

But since they are playing stupid I am going to give the answer.

Tia stated that since some Jews can lay claim to land rights in Israel due to having indigenous ancestors, that that is partial justification for the ideological belief of zionism for all Jews.

And I called bullcrap on it.

I have heard this lie propagated by zion loons many many times. I asked him what percent of the Jew in Israel today can make that claim, and the entire Indymedia zionist lobby starting playing dumb, because the answer reduces to apartheid. That's the bottom line.

It is a well documented fact that less than 7% of the Jews in Israel today can claim an link due indigenous ancestors before 1947, and 0% can show any reliable documented evidence of the claim that their ancestral ties go back 3500 years, as previously suggested.

This is just another example of outright lies churned out by the Zionist propaganda mills. And it is more proof of what is more apartheid than democracy in Israel.

Don't know where you pulled that 7% figure out from. Now you can parrot "Israeli apartheih, not democracy" until you're blue in the face, but the fact is the "Palestinians" back in 1947 didn't call themselves by that name, had no national distinctness and weren't yet a people. Their case was weaker than the Zionist Jewish one. I'll repeat Tia's passage to rub the truth in your face once more:

Incidently, I'm not sure if you know this- but a Palestinian is defined by the UN as any Arab living in the area from 1946 on. They could have been from Egypt, or Syria, or anywhere...it doesn't matter. **The legal definition based on residency, not native birth, from 1946 on. ** [My asterisks]

Reread and weep. Repeat.

"Don't know where you pulled that 7% figure out from. Now you can parrot "Israeli apartheih, not democracy" until you're blue in the face, but the fact is the "Palestinians" back in 1947 didn't call themselves by that name, had no national distinctness and weren't yet a people. Their case was weaker than the Zionist Jewish one."

The difference is that pre-1947 the Arabs indigenous to the region were the majority.

Now they are a subjugated majority.

That's called apartheid.

Let's do an inventory count:

(a) you threw in your 7% without telling where it's from or providing URL backup and (b) claim that pre-1947 the Arabs indigenous to the "region" (what the hell is this? The Mideast? Does it include today's Jordan?) formed the majority among the population in the land of Israel west of the Jordan river, yet you tossed this in here out of the blue as well. On which source are you relying for making this claim? After all, tens if not hundreds of thousands of Arabs had migranted into the land from other Mideastern lands. Even the British concede this point.

Another point is the State of Israel was established in 1948 so if anything, the discussion should concern pre-1948 times.

Then you proceed to continue with a straight face your clowning from before and expect the non-moonbats to buy your contention that the native Arabs in the land of Israel -- presumably west of the Jordan -- now still constitute a majority. That affirms your status as a clowning liar.

Why should I have to state a source for a well documented fact when your ilk refuses to state sources for your lies and obvious obfuscations? Do your own research.

7% of Jews in Israel can claim they have indigenous ties to the region and that's that. That hardly justifies the Zionist's claim that they have any right at all to that land.

And 0% can prove they are related to anyone who occupied that land 3500 years ago. There is absolutely not a shred of proof for that claim, but it doesn't stop you Zionists from making it.

And 0% can prove they are related to anyone who occupied that land 3500 years ago. There is absolutely not a shred of proof for that claim, but it doesn't stop you Zionists from making it.

I've never heard nor seen the 7% figure before. There is DNA evidence regarding the ancestory of the Jewish people- there is archaeological evidence as well of their continued residency in the area.

Jews claim to Israel:

Biblical claim

Legal claim

This is from Ziff "The Rape of Palestine" (1938)

Dr. W.E. Blackstone, quoting the foremost authorities on international law, pointed out in 1891 that since the Jews never gave up their title to Palestine, the general "law of dereliction" could not hold in in their case; "for they never abandoned the land. They made no treaty; they did not even surrender. They simply succumbed, after the most desperate conflict, to the overwhelming power of the Romans...and were captured or enslaved...Since then, having no sovereign nor political head through whom they could speak, they have disputed the possession of their land by continued protest through their literature and their public and private worship...

Blackstone quotes the outstanding leading legal luminaries of his day, who agree that the Jewish claim was legally, at least, sound that the Jewish claim is legally sound. He points out that according to the logical precedents established by such authorities as Buswell, Wheaton, Clifford, Phillimore and others, "the forcible manner by which Israel has been kept out of the land, with no means of redress, is equivalent in principle to a continued state of war..."

The greatest legal authorities have agreed that according to the foundation principles of international law there is no basis for prescription against Israel... therefore THE JEWS HAVE A VALID CLAIM ON PALESTINE AS LONG AS THERE IS A SINGLE ZIONIST ALIVE"

Historic claim: re: British mandate- although the mandate territory included what is now Jordan.

"Jews claim to Israel: Biblical claim"

A book that claims that a man got swallowed by a big fish, that God sent a great flood to swallow the earth, and that woman comes from a man's rib, that a man cracked his cloak on the Red Sea and magically parted it so the Jews could walk into the promised land ~ isn't exactly what the world's "greatest legal authorities" would call credible.

I realize that, but Jews, Christians and Moslems all hold credence in the Bible, so thats quite a chunk of the earth's population.

What you're basically doing now is deriding the weaker forms of evidence to unbroken Jewish connection to the land throughout the generations and pretending the stronger forms -- DNA evidence (as in the J and E haplotypes) and archaeological evidence weren't even related to you at all. I'm laughing at you as I type these lines. Incidentally, there still exist in Israel a few scions to a Jewish family named Zinati that lived continuously until last century in the village Peki'in in northern Israel since 135 AD at least.

So far you've only presented one URL to back up one among the many claims you've made so far. I don't think a request to at least state the source so we can trace it to something on the web is too much to ask. What if I spend the time dong thorough research and find you to be bluffing again (a very likely prospect)? Of course you won't change your mind at being proven wrong, but we should be able to ascertain the 7% figure you're tossing here like some expert. You seem to be afraid and with good reason. Tia and myself have stated several sources each for our claims, so you're lying arguing that your we all refuse to state sources.

You're also ducking the fact you don't seem to be uncapable of backing up your claim that the indigenous Arabs constituted a majority in pre-1947 Palestine, presumably in the territory west of the Jordan. (I take it that's your drift by saying "region". If not, I'll be more than happy to be corrected.)

Lastly, even if the 7% indigenous Jews figure is correct, it sure does validate a Zionist claim to the land of Israel or at least parts of it -- at the very least the tracts that indigenous Jews owned. If you deny the truthfulness of this last reservation, you're clearly racist, notwithstanding your whinings.

I don't owe you anything. Do your own research.

I asked the question and gave you all the opportunity to answer it, but instead you all chose to obfuscate and to play stupid games with linguisitics. Since you obviously didn't want the readers to know the answer, I gave it to them.

I wasn't addressing you with that information in any way except indirectly, as a reader to this forum, because each of you have already succintly proven yourselves liars and obfuscators for the Zionist propaganda machine. You have no credibility, and I have long since curtailed any serious dialogue with you.

You are all a joke in my book, and it makes me chortle for you to think I would comply with the demands of a buffoon for a source to a well documented fact.

What you're basically doing now is deriding the weaker forms of evidence to unbroken Jewish connection to the land throughout the generations and pretending the stronger forms -- DNA evidence (as in the J and E haplotypes) and archaeological evidence weren't even related to you at all. I'm laughing at you as I type these lines. Incidentally, there still exist in Israel a few scions to a Jewish family named Zinati that lived continuously until last century in the village Peki'in in northern Israel since 135 AD at least.

So far you've only presented one URL to back up one among the many claims you've made so far. I don't think a request to at least state the source so we can trace it to something on the web is too much to ask. What if I spend the time doing thorough research and find you to be bluffing again (a very likely prospect)? Of course you won't change your mind at being proven wrong, but we should be able to ascertain the 7% figure you're tossing here like some expert. You seem to be afraid and with good reason. Tia and myself have stated several sources each for our claims, so you're lying arguing that we all refuse to state sources.

You're also ducking the fact you don't seem to be capable of backing up your claim that the indigenous Arabs constituted a majority in pre-1947 Palestine, presumably in the territory west of the Jordan. (I take it that's your drift by saying "region". If not, I'll be more than happy to be corrected.)

Lastly, even if the 7% indigenous Jews figure is correct, it sure does validate a Zionist claim to the land of Israel or at least parts of it -- at the very least the tracts that indigenous Jews owned. If you deny the truthfulness of this last reservation, you're clearly racist, notwithstanding your whinings.

As I've stated, I don't owe you anything. Don't make me repeat myself. If you don't like my regurgitation of well documented facts, then make up your own. Your ilk is good at making things up.

I repeated my last post to ferret out the grammatical and syntactical mistakes.

I've searched for anti-Israel sources totting the 7% figure for a good while, then within a pro-Israeli resource. It doesn't turn up anywhere. So unless and until you state your source or provide the URL I'll regard your claim as yet another toot out of your ass from now onwards. You're the person with negative cred here, mind you. You've been caught in a host of lies and have no shame at all.

A friend of mind once said "the land should belong to the people who live there". Here is a brief synopsis of "the people who live there" and how they got there, and how long they have lived there. I hope this helps answer your question re: the % pop. of Arabs on the West Bank in 1947 and again in 1967, but with the necessary historical perspective to allow you to understand what those numbers mean. --- Becky

Population Ironies

Population of Palestine from c. 1200 to 1850’s = stable, very low (c. 170,000-350,000), largely Bedouin, cities small, large % Jews in cities

travelers’ anecdotals (Mark Twain, Innocents Abroad)

Turkish census- 1878 (for taxation purposes)

Jerusalem = 60% Jews

19th – 20th century, Turks import Albanians, Slovaks, Circassians, inter alia, and Arabs from what would later become Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt into Palestine for cheap labor and to develop uninhabited land

British interest in "Holy Land" from c. 1849 to Pre-Mandate

pilgrims in Jerusalem, hostels, churches, schools, Bible schools

British Embassy, hospitals and medical infrastructure

British armed forces police and protect pilgrims

groundwork for wresting from Turks as gateway to the East

"Lawrence of Arabia" and World War I

The British Mandate and Arab Population growth

Ernest Bevin, Anthony Eden, and Neville Chamberlain: British "genteel" anti-Semitism

Ord Wingate and Anthony Eden’s personal secretary for British preferences for Arabs and the Sykes-Picot treaty

British interests aligned with "keeping the Oil Arabs happy"

even when Hajj Amin el Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and hundreds of thousands of Arabs, sided with Hitler in WWII, volunteered for Axis armies, and conferred with Hitler about a "final solution" for Palestine’s Jews because British wanted oil and gateway to India via Suez . Britain imported Arabs from Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, to populate Palestine, even while claiming (White Papers) that Jews could not be allowed to enter Palestine because the economy could not support them.



Growth of Jewish population despite British closure created need for British to encourage Arab immigration in order to keep population balance in favor of Arabs

Jewish development of Palestine and Arab Population growth

reclaiming desert = arable land for fellah & grazing for Bedouin

draining swamps = ditto

improvement in Jewish medical infrastructure available to Arabs resulted in substantial reduction in mortality (esp. infant mortality) and significant "in-migration" growth of population.

Conclusion: The Arab population of Palestine almost quintupled between 1850 and 1948. This was due primarily to Arab immigration and reduced mortality. Therefore, the overwhelming majority of Arabs living in the Land of Israel today can claim a landed ancestry of not more than 150 years. The same is true of Jews

REPLY TO CHANGELING: try www.stoptheism.com

the Arab population of Palestine was historically

extremely low – prior to the Jews' renewed interest in

the area beginning in the early 1900s.

For instance, a travel guide to Palestine and Syria,

published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the

fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled

the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was

minimal. The book estimates the total population of

the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000

were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

More than you ever wanted to know about the population of Palestine prior to 1948

(I don't see anything about 7% though)

"There is DNA evidence regarding the ancestory of the Jewish people-"

Yesterday our resident Jews tried to tell us that the Jews are not a race.

But today they telling us that there second biggest claim to prove they have ties to the land of Israel (after that work of fiction called the Holy Bible) is DNA evidence. I don't understand how there can be a Jewish DNA chain without Jewishness contributing to race.

Jews seem to like having it both ways: Sometimes they are a race (when it's convenient), and sometimes they are not a race (when it's inconvenient).

Well? Which is it?

If the Jews are not a race, then I suppose we can discount #2 of Tia's screed about the Jew's claim that Israel belongs to them.

If they ~are~ a race then that means only a very specific number of them can lay any claims to the land of Israel. 7% to be exact.

So either only 7% can make any ancestoral claims to Israel, or none of them can. Take you pick.

And lets add another :

Fairness.

After all, there are 56 Muslim countries and only one Jewish state.

I don't see it reproduced anywhere.

Aside from that, your logic escapes me. Nation states don't "turn over" with each new generation. I can't follow your train of thought at all.

So I, BJ and Tia have failed to find the 7% indigenous Jews figure that the Israel basher Ryan touts like some wannabe expert. It's a figment of his imagination. What's really hysterical is how seriously he takes his own imagined figure.

As for the DNA, please understand that the haplotypes J and E are Semitic. These haplotypes have been found profusely in blacks too, like the Lembas; their Buba clan is especially Mideastern in its DNA patterns, or to be precise, Jewish priestly. 52% of the men in this Black African clan have what's known as the Kohen modal haplotype which is the genetic signiture of the Jewish priestly caste. The same is true from the Jewish priests among the group known as Bnei Israel from India. So if so many black and Brown skinned people can possess a genetic signiture unique to Jews, that's yet another proof that Jews aren't a race. Got it, Ryan dear? Obviously you don't have much of an inkling about how DNA relates to race. But if you get off your lazy butt and search for the evidence on the 'net, you'll find info on the kohen modal haplotype, the Lemba, the Buba clan, etc.

The question you posed whether Jews are or aren't a race is a false dilemma.

And now, turning to this pretty amusing bit:

"If they are a race then that means only a very specific number of them can lay any claims to the land of Israel. 7% to be exact. "

The fictional 7% figure aside, one giggles as one wonders why Ryan would limit the number of Jews with any entitlement to the land of Israel to a "very specific number" -- is he basing this on skin color, or what? I'm not seeking an answer. It's just too dumb to take seriously.

As for evidence of the Jewish connection to the land throughout the millennia, the strongest form of evidence derives from archaeology.

But only ignoramuses and idiots would refer to the Hebrew Bible as a whole as a work of fiction, even if many segments of it are.

It is not my logic that is in question, Tia. It is your very own logic that is questionable. In fact, you seemingly debunk yourself with that very comment.

The Zionists such as yourself claim that just because they have ancestral ties to Israel that that justifies the concept of Zionism, at least in part. In fact it was you that made this statement in an effort to sell me on the Zionist philosophy in your common infomercia-esque style:

"And now people like you are convinced, in spite of a 3,000 year presence in Israel , that Jews are a relatively new arrival to Israel."

and this:

"The greatest legal authorities have agreed that according to the foundation principles of international law there is no basis for prescription against Israel... therefore THE JEWS HAVE A VALID CLAIM ON PALESTINE AS LONG AS THERE IS A SINGLE ZIONIST ALIVE"

But now you admit that just because some Jews are indigenous to a region, that does not grant their ancestors deed to the same parcel of land:

"Aside from that, your logic escapes me. Nation states don't "turn over" with each new generation. I can't follow your train of thought at all."

In the case of the Jews, this is readily apparent. Even if some Jews have an indigenous ancestral ties associated with that land (which hasn't conclusively been proven by any of you forum Zionists to this point anyway) This doesn't mean that all Zionists have claim to the land. Your group has drawn the line between Jews and Zionists quite clearly for me, and I am told that they are not the same.

So all Zionists can not make claim to the land; only Jews that have ancestral ties to the land.

Further, since nation-states don't turn over between generations, as you have clearly stated, this negates any claims by Zionists that in fact do have ancestral ties to the land that Israel belongs to them.

Nation states are turned over from government to government. Governments control land. In order for Israel to belong to Jews, and for there to be any validity to the claim that ancestral ties justifies Zionism, the Jews would have had to have maintained a government of sorts on the land that maintained control of the land for the entirety of 3,500 years you previously mentioned.

In the absence of this Jewish government, the claim by Zionists of ancestral ties justifying Zionism reduces to nothing more than propaganda.

With that stated and apparent, the key that must be faced here is what now gives Zionists the right to the land?

Well, the answer to that is simple. They have established a government which is recognized by the majority of the world, and they maintain control of the land through propaganda and force. Might makes right.

So do I acknowledge the existence of Israel as being legititmate? Of course! It is as legitimate as the existence of any nation state.

But for only as long as the land can be controlled by it's government.

That said, do I recognize the Palestinians right to struggle against the nation of Israel, to attempt to depose the government of it and to displace the Zionists?

Absolutely.

They have just as much claim to that land as Jews with ancestral ties to it. And they have even more claim than Zionists without ancestral ties.

In conclusion:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Tia stated (3) claims that the Zionists give to substantiate your Zionist belief that the Jews have a right to the land of Israel.

1. Biblical - Historical written links to the land

2. Racial - DNA links to the land

3. Legal claims

All of these you have yourselves debunked in previous and subsequent posts.

Tia admitted that the Bible is unreliable and essentially a work of fiction.

Scapegoated Jew has made it clear that the Jewish DNA line cited by Tia is found in diverse groups of people all around the world, giving them as much claim to the ancestral ties argument as the Jews. Jews are not a race, you've said it yourselves, so #2 doesn't wash.

And the legal claim is essentially based on nothing more than the protestations of the Zionists. Because they have shaken their fists in frustration, written about "returning to the promised land", and prayed to a God that no one can prove conclusively exists, that these somehow give them legal recourse under the veil of "international law" for the retaking of the land.

This is simply bizarre. You Zionist are shoddy and two bit Zionists at best. You have all failed miserably in your efforts to convince me that you deserve that land.

Seriously, I am forced to conclude here that you are either all very deluded people, or else not really Zionists at all.

Ryan apparently hopes no one notices the obvious lie he threw into his screed:

"Even if some Jews have an indigenous ancestral ties associated with that land (which hasn't conclusively been proven by any of you forum Zionists to this point anyway)"

Despite that I have told him about the Israeli scions of the old Jewish Zinati family that lived continuously in Peki'in in northern Israel up until last century since 135 AD at least. This can be verified on the internet.



Questions Ryan would answer if he followed through on his train of thought:

(a.) Since nation-states don't turn over between generations, and he claims this negates any claims by Zionists that in fact do have ancestral ties to the land that Israel belongs to them, doesn't it likewise negate any claims by Palestinians that in fact do have ancestral ties to the land that the land of Israel belongs to them?

Ryan baselessly proclaims:

"They [the Palestinians] have just as much claim to that land as Jews with ancestral ties to it [note the lack of distinction between Palis with ancestral ties and Palis lacking them[. And they have even more claim than Zionists without ancestral ties [same weird and bigoted logic]. This begs the second question:

(b.) Does Ryan recognize the Jewish Zionists' right to struggle against the Palestinian nation, to attempt to depose the Palestinian Authority and to displace the Palestinians?

Having answered that question, how would Ryan answer this:

(c.) What now gives Palestinians without ancestral ties to the land of Israel the right to the land?

"They have just as much claim to that land as Jews with ancestral ties to it. And they have even more claim than Zionists without ancestral ties."

Ok. How? Lets see your logic.

I don't have time right now to show you the ways, the very many ways, (logically, historically, etc) you are wrong, but i'll get back to you on that

"They have just as much claim to that land as Jews with ancestral ties to it. And they have even more claim than Zionists without ancestral ties."

"Ok. How? Lets see your logic."

I suppose I am speaking out of morality here.

I'd use the analogy again, that if you're living in a house that your great grandfather built and bequeathed to your father, who subsequently bequeathed to you ~ then I have less of a right to interlope, move into your house, and dispossess you of it, than say ~ your half brother.

It's a moral thing more than anything. I respect the rights of others, and I do not steal from others. I try to live by the golden rule. Because this is how I want to be treated.

But the Laws of Nature know no moral bounds. We all essentially have a natural right to have whatever we can take by force or whatever means are available to us. And others have the same right to take from us.

So unless as civilized creatures we all agree to abide by concrete established sets of "moral" rules, such as we won't steal from each other, or murder each other, threaten or terrorize each other, ~ then we really have nothing to guide us but the laws of nature ~ might makes right, the strong will dominate the weak, etc. to guide us.

So that given, the Palestinians have a right to the land if they can take it from the Jews. Of course the Jews have a right to the land if they can hold it.

And everyone else has a right to sit back and watch them slaughter each other.

You've got a knack for misrepresenting, part out of a habit of lying, part out of cognitive dissonance.

Tia didn't make a linkage between DNA and race. You are.

Then you state we have debunked various posts all biblical evidence and DNA evidence and legal evidence to the land. Sorry, I don't recall BJ and myself even remotely debunking them even as per your bizarre standards. The non-fictional portions of the Hebrew Bible do not undermine the biblical evidence, except to people with a black-or-white mode of thinking. You know, unintelligent simpletons.

Next, you hold that Tia admitted the Bible to be unreliable and essentially a fictional work. I haven't seen here do this.

Next, you misrepresent my words as if I was talking in the most general terms about the DNA evidence just like Tia did. Anyone can see I was being more specific than she.

Expanding on the kohen modal haplotype -- in the 1st millennium BC it was found only among the Jews in the land of Israel, then it spread beyond the land's boundaries to places as far as India and South Africa. The problem with the Lembas is that the Jewish group that migrated to Africa from Yemen and formed its core was eventually assimilated among Bantu speaking blacks, and they appear to have lost contact with mainstream Judaism and all other Jewish populations early on, so their Jewish practice is considered sub-par to Orthodoxy. Therefore they must convert to Judaism to be deemed Jewish.

That said, you're right for finally arriving at the proper conclusion that Jews aren't a race. Thank you!



Now to the funnier parts where Ryan just plain revolts against reality and the verdict of leading luminaries in int'l law:

"And the legal claim is essentially based on nothing more than the *protestations of the Zionists* [my asterisks]. Because they have shaken their fists in frustration, written about "returning to the promised land", and prayed to a God that no one can prove conclusively exists, that these somehow give them legal recourse under the veil of "international law" for the retaking of the land. "

"You have all failed miserably in your efforts to convince me that you deserve that land"

You have likely failed abysmally to prove by default -- even if only through omission -- that the vast majority of Palestinians deserve the land of Israel.

And the funniest:

"Seriously, I am forced to conclude here that you are either all very deluded people, or else not really Zionists at all"

Which begs the question just what constitutes a real Zionist to Ryan. Will he tell us?

Ryan:

"They have just as much claim to that land as Jews with ancestral ties to it. And they have even more claim than Zionists without ancestral ties."

Tia: Ok. How? Lets see your logic.

Ryan:

"I suppose I am speaking out of morality here.

I'd use the analogy again, that if you're living in a house that your great grandfather built and bequeathed to your father, who subsequently bequeathed to you ~ then I have less of a right to interlope, move into your house, and dispossess you of it, than say ~ your half brother.

It's a moral thing more than anything. I respect the rights of others, and I do not steal from others. I try to live by the golden rule. Because this is how I want to be treated. "

Now that Ryan has effectively refuted his implicit claim from before that even Arabs with no ancestral connection to the land of Israel have every bit as much a right to the land like Jews with ancestral ties to it, my problem with Ryan's answer is this: why doesn't he acknowledge that his analogy should encompass also the Jews whose families had been living in the land continuously for centuries or over a millennium by 1948 or Zionism's advent in 1881 in Odessa, Russia (from whence came the "Bilu" immigrants)?

I'm way past your chain of thought at this point. You always seem to be a post or two behind? Are you busy checking the appendix of your Zionist Operatives Manual?

"You have likely failed abysmally to prove by default -- even if only through omission -- that the vast majority of Palestinians deserve the land of Israel."

This has never been my objective. In fact, I think it's downright silly to conclude that this would even be my objective.

I concluded resolutely that the neither Palestinians nor Jews have any more claim than the other. Neither are more deserving. I think if Solomon were still king, he'd take a sword and cut the land down the middle.

"Which begs the question just what constitutes a real Zionist to Ryan. Will he tell us?"

As far as I know, a Zionist is nothing more than a Jew that believes he has a divine right to occupy the land of Zion. And that's about it.

It's a belief based on a work of fiction that says Moses struck the Red Sea with his cape and magically it parted, allowing the Jews to pass out of Egypt. They went into the desert, where they wandered aimlessly, and worshipped golden calfs. In the meantime, their leader Moses was talking to a burning bush, while the hand of "God" was chiseling out commandments on stone tablets. You know, those "moral" laws like "Thou shall not steal."

You know, it's ironic to think the Jewish Zionists have essentially broken that "Thou shall not steal" commandment by taking that land by force from the Palestinians. Come to think of it, they've broken "Thou shall not murder" too.

Wow. The deeper I get into this, I begin to see more and more what hypocrits the Zionists are. I wonder when they will start worshipped a golden calf again? It can't be that far off.

It's not my logic that is in question.

by Lunchbox Tuesday, Jun. 13, 2006 at 7:48 AM



But now you admit that just because some Jews are indigenous to a region, that does not grant their ancestors deed to the same parcel of land

Thats precisely the opposite of what I was saying.

When a generation dies, their heirs remain on the land.

In the case of the Jews, this is readily apparent. Even if some Jews have an indigenous ancestral ties associated with that land (which hasn't conclusively been proven by any of you forum Zionists to this point anyway)

How about this lovely piece, from the Psalms, written over a thousand years ago

"By the rivers of Babylon we sat.

Sat and wept.

Sing us a song of Zion, our captors tormented us.

But how can we sing of Zion in a strange land?

If I forget thee oh, Jerusalem,

May my right hand wither.

May my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth

If I do not remember Jerusalem even in my happiest hour"

Or the current reggae interpretation, by Mattisyahu

"Jerusalem If I forget you, let my right hand forget whats its supposed to do"

Do you know that "next year in Jerusalem" is an important part of Jewish Liturgy?. All Jews, including ones that convert today, accept this. They become the sons and daughters of Abraham and Sara.

So all Zionists can not make claim to the land; only Jews that have ancestral ties to the land.

All Jews have ancestral ties to the land. Israel is meant to be a refugee for the Jewish peeople. There are Jews from 57 different nations living in Israel.

Further, since nation-states don't turn over between generations, as you have clearly stated, this negates any claims by Zionists that in fact do have ancestral ties to the land that Israel belongs to them.

No. It means quite the opposite. When your ancestors die, their possessions usually don't become state's property- they go to their descendents. Property, included land, is inherited. The right to property is also inherited.

Nation states are turned over from government to government. Governments control land. In order for Israel to belong to Jews, and for there to be any validity to the claim that ancestral ties justifies Zionism, the Jews would have had to have maintained a government of sorts on the land that maintained control of the land for the entirety of 3,500 years you previously mentioned.

In the absence of this Jewish government, the claim by Zionists of ancestral ties justifying Zionism reduces to nothing more than propaganda.

I disagree, but using this logic why does it give the Arabs the right to the land? They hadn't maintained a government.

Well, the answer to that is simple. They have established a government which is recognized by the majority of the world, and they maintain control of the land through propaganda and force. Might makes right.

This "logic" is where the distinction between mere anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism becomes blurred. If we accepted this as truth, and you condemned every nation on the planet, it would make sense. But you've singled out Israel. Only Israel.

So do I acknowledge the existence of Israel as being legititmate? Of course! It is as legitimate as the existence of any nation state.

That said, do I recognize the Palestinians right to struggle against the nation of Israel, to attempt to depose the government of it and to displace the Zionists?

But you haven't shown any Palestinian right to the land. And the palestinians were in "control", it would be because "They have established a government which is recognized by the majority of the world, and they maintain control of the land through propaganda and force. Might makes right, " and then the Zionists could struggle against them?

What you've proposed is a continued state of war, ending only in the complete destruction of a particular group. Why is this a solution?



They have just as much claim to that land as Jews with ancestral ties to it. And they have even more claim than Zionists without ancestral ties.

You still haven't explained why:

Jerusalem is mentioned once in the Quran. Jerusalem is mentioned 700 times in hte Bible. The Jewish liturgy and culture revolves around a belief in the RETURN to Zion. Every Jewish wedding includes the smashing of a glass, to remind us that no matter how happy an occassion is, we need to remember the destruction of our temple in Jerusalem.

"why doesn't he acknowledge that his analogy should encompass also the Jews whose families had been living in the land continuously for centuries or over a millennium by 1948 or Zionism's advent in 1881 in Odessa, Russia (from whence came the "Bilu" immigrants)?"

Ultimately the laws of nature, might makes right, determine who gets the land. So the question of occupation has become irrelevant. It doesn't matter who has lived on the land, only who controls the land now, and in the future.

The Israelis currently hold the land, and if they can maintain their hold, then that is that. And if not, then the laws of nature have decided against them.

But you asked me who is more deserving of the land though. After further analysis, I think the Palestinians are more deserving.

Why?

Because the Jews have an esstablished code of moral laws that they purport to the world ~ The Ten Commandments. And they have broken so many of these to gain control of Israel. It makes them hypocrits of the highest order.

At least the Muslims live by a code that says they will battle the infidels at all costs, in the name of Mohammad, and will only be victorious if Allah is willing. They live by Jihad, and they are more consistent and less hypocritical than the Jews.

So I'd have to conclude that they are more deserving of the land.

I concluded resolutely that the neither Palestinians nor Jews have any more claim than the other. Neither are more deserving. I think if Solomon were still king, he'd take a sword and cut the land down the middle.

In 1937 the peele commission offered to partition the land.

The Jews accepted.

The Arabs refused

In 1948 the Un offered up the Partition Plan

The Jews accepted

The Arabs refused.

At Camp David, the Palestinians were offered yet another opportunity at statehood. They refused.

Lunchbox- most of the Zionist posters here (many? some?) have expressed their willing to try a two state solution. Were you aware of that?

You can't debunk me line by line, because my prose is a chain of thought. I often debunk my own previous lines in subsequent text, which puts behind in the flow of my thoughts. You need to catch up to see where I'm going.

But, one mistake you've made is in your claim that people, and not governments, own land. This is false.

Even though you buy a parcel of land, you still continue to pay property taxes or real estate taxes on the land, to the government for the right to occupy the land. Cease paying these taxes and you will find out who truly owns your land.

Further, imminent domain means that gvernments have the right to take land, even from their own citizens.

Governments, and not people, own all of the land on this Earth?

Why? Because it is natural law at work. Might makes right.

LUNCHBOX WRITES: "So unless as civilized creatures we all agree to abide by concrete established sets of "moral" rules, such as we won't steal from each other, or murder each other, threaten or terrorize each other, ~ then we really have nothing to guide us but the laws of nature ~ might makes right, the strong will dominate the weak, etc. to guide us."

BECKY: Will you give credit to the Jewish and Noachide Laws that established (long before any American or Palestinian people even existed!) that we must establish laws which forbid murder, stealing, threatening others, and forbidding terrorizing others? All of these were written into Jewish Law several thousand years ago. Give credit where credit is due.

The 7th Noachide law which commands all peoples to --Set up courts and bring offenders to justice --- ( this one is for gentiles like you and me, Ryan) ALSO establishes a civilized world where might does not automatically mean right. Where the weak and sick are protected. These are ALL literally written in stone by the Hebrews. And we all benefit from this.

Do you own a gun? I don't. I don't need one. 9-11 is my gun. That is because I live in a civilized society with rule of law and consequences for offenders. I thank the Jews for this.

"Lunchbox- most of the Zionist posters here (many? some?) have expressed their willing to try a two state solution. Were you aware of that?"

I don't see how it matters if the Palestinians are unwilling to accept the offer. It's quite a dilemma, and I'm sure it must be frustating for the Zionists.

From the Zionist perspective it sounds like the Palestinians are being unreasonable.

Until you look at it from the Palestinian perspective. Someone comes into your home, dispossess you of it, then offers you back half of it to appease you.

It's a quagmire. No good answer. It's why I hate this conflict, which ultimately has nothing to do with me. I have my own concerns. You people need to battle this out among yourselves.

And without the financial support (blood money) of the USA. That's the bottom line. I still don't see why my tax dollars should go to proping up Israel.

I'm sure if the Jews asked nicely we could find a nice Zion in Montana or Idaho for them. Do Jews like snow?

The argument is now: Who is more deserving?

All I can say is. "Oy"

So we have a homophobic culture oppressive to woman and minorities who you consider more deserving because they are more consistent? This is a culture where being gay is a capital offense. This is a culture where womaen are forced into arranged marriages, veiled and kept out of sight. This is a culture where one third of the deaths are from honor killings. This is a culture that multilates the genitals of women to preserve their "virtue".

Oy. Lunchbox. Oy.

Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, Ryan. I'd recommend a different standard.

Me: You have likely failed abysmally to prove by default -- even if only through omission -- that the vast majority of Palestinians deserve the land of Israel.

"This has never been my objective. In fact, I think it's downright silly to conclude that this would even be my objective.

"I concluded resolutely that the neither Palestinians nor Jews have any more claim than the other. Neither are more deserving."

Well, hallelujah! Notwithstanding your rhetorical flip-flops, you finally seem to be arriving at at least one fair minded conclusion.



Me: Which begs the question just what constitutes a real Zionist to Ryan. Will he tell us?

"As far as I know, a Zionist is nothing more than a Jew that believes he has a divine right to occupy the land of Zion. And that's about it. "

Shows how much you know.

This description fits the religious Zionist Jews, yet most secular Jewish Zionists either entirely preclude the divine right or make it secondary to int'l law rights and the rights of history as shown by archaeology, the Hebrew Bible and DNA evidence.

There also exist many Christian and other non-Jewish Zionists who tout a divine right for the Jews to reclaim Zion. 'nessie' the anti-Zionist will readily concur with the existence of many Christiam Zionists. He almost does it by Pavlovian cue.

Ryan on Zionism:

"It's a belief based on a work of fiction that says Moses struck the Red Sea with his cape and magically it parted, allowing the Jews to pass out of Egypt. etc etc."

In other words, you ignore the non-fictional portions in biblical books like Judges, Samuel and Kings that have had many details in them confirmed by archaeology.

Ryan:

"You know, it's ironic to think the Jewish Zionists have essentially broken that "Thou shall not steal" commandment by taking that land by force from the Palestinians. Come to think of it, they've broken "Thou shall not murder" too.

I note how you're intentionally defaulting on distinguishing between the rather few Arabs that had ancestral links to the land and the vast majority that didn't (because they were Johny-come-laties in the 19th and 20th centuries), and how you're making a blanket statement as if the whole land was taken from Arabs, even though only 3% of the land was Arab-owned. You're also happy to overlook the Arab murder and usurpation that occurred at the time which was more egregious than most anything the Jews committed then. Examples: murdering a convoy of dozens of nurses and doctors on the way to a Jerusalem hospital, desecration of the ancient Jewish cemetary on Mt. Olives, demolition of 56 synagogues in Jerusalem, ethnically cleansing Jews from Jewish owned land in E. Jerusalem, Kfar Darom and Gush Etzyon.

Ryan:

"Wow. The deeper I get into this, I begin to see more and more what hypocrits the Zionists are. "

The more we post on these topics, the greater you double standards and mendacity in the service of anti-Zionism is exposed for all to see.

"Do you own a gun?"

Yes. I own many guns. Because I recognize that natural law trumps artificial laws of government and civility.

There are people that refuse to abide by man-made laws. And when you are staring into the eyes of a rapist or killer, the fact that you believe you live in a civilized society of written laws is of little consolation.

A Glock, a Smith and Wesson, or a Browning ~ on the other hand ~ is very consoling in such a situation.

Have they violated the laws of Moses to get their Zion?

Have they stolen?

Have they coveted?

Have they murdered?

Have they honoured their neighbors?

Have they bore false witness?

Tia:

Lunchbox- most of the Zionist posters here (many? some?) have expressed their willing to try a two state solution. Were you aware of that?

From Ryan's retort I conclude he's off the deep on morally. This guy may even be more of a headcase than 'nessie' is, what with how he elevates the Palestinian perspective to one of seemingly objective reasonability by carrying on with his wildly hyperbolic and lopsided presentation of being dispossessed by the Zionist Jews.

Then -- how cute -- he makes yet again a flip-flop by pretending to assume neutral observer status as a man who merely hates the conflict, even though he has made it very related to his existence. It's as if he believes extensive posting here will somehow alter where his tax dollars flow to. He also pretends than the US hasn't send and keeps sending hundreds of millions of tax dollars to the PA and Pali NGOs, or at least doesn't mind that his tax money has also gone to propping up the ecclectic malady that is the Palestinian society. Apparently he approves of all those evils on the strength of Muslim religious ethical standards. But what about the Christian Palestinians? He hasn't said a word about their fate under Muslim tyranny. Does he approve of the persecution of those Christians?

Lastly, you can have your Montana or Idaho and shove them. That's your stolen territory, not land usurped from Jews.

"Are the Zionists hypocrits or not?

"Have they violated the laws of Moses to get their Zion? Blah blah blah blah blah "

Your social Darwinism aside, I'm asking if you honestly reckon that all Zionists must be religious by your primitive and bigoted standards? You said earlier that you recognize that Jews aren't always synonomous with Zionists. So why don't you allow for the existence secular Zionism and secular adherents of Zionism that actually *have* been in existence for over a century? Now I remember -- you're a slimy bigot.

Quick question(s):

you get your info on Zionists from Radio Islam aka ABC Radio? Or is it a David Duke cyber outlet?

"That's your stolen territory, not land usurped from Jews."

Seriously, I howled out loud when I read that. THAT is just too funny.

Considering I'm an American Indian.

Until you look at it from the Palestinian perspective. "Someone comes into your home, dispossess you of it, then offers you back half of it to appease you."



We keep asking you to show us this "historic" claim of the Palestinians to Israel, and you don't.

It would greatly enhance what little credibility you have left if you could show us.

We are waiting.

"It really is no wonder that the Zionist are losing the PR war, and are slowly but surely becoming the most hated people on the planet. "

You're making this assertion on nothing more than the strength of your highly dubious inferences. Your latest histrionic fit just further drives home, or more correctly it even alters, the point I made about you at the outset on day one. I said you were spouting an admixture of 40% BS and 60% ignorance. Now I must modify that assertion to say you had begun ignorant and then fed off questionable sources to get much of your present knowledge about the topics we're discussing in these threads, and that bonafide ignorance makes up a very small percentage of the aforementioned admixture.

Zionism began and invariably has been an overwhelmingly secular expression of Jewish nationalism. Your histrionic strawmen are dismissed with uproarious laghter for the drivel they are. Only someone clinically insane as yourself can turn reality around to declare *us* insane.

You've been done a few days now. I encourage you to keep on being done so we'll have many more opportunities to out you. Having a certifiable buffoon on board is a prolonged comic relief and therefore a desirable phenomenon.

You've proven you care very little for historical evidence and you cherry pick the givens of history at best, so your Christ refrain is really within that perspective. But I'd say Christianity took off due to Paul's madness. Take it or leave it.

No wonder you've "forgotten" that Buddhism, Shintuism, Hinduism for a few didn't start with "us whackos".

Takes your meds diligently.

"We keep asking you to show us this "historic" claim of the Palestinians to Israel, and you don't."

I can no more do that than you can show me any historic claim of the Jews to Palestine.

Tia, I'm bored with your wordplay. It's witty, but it's not constructive in the slightest. Yes, I will and have acknowledged your intelligence. You are very bright and very slick. You can manipulate words well. You have a creative comeback for just about everything related to this issue. It's obvious that this issue dominates a large part of your life.

I, on the other hand, have a life. I don't really care about the Israel issue. It's just one of the many topics I have studied as a hobby, nothing more.

And my correspondance with you all has been in the hopes that you could convince me your side was just and right. But you have managed to do just the opposite. And that really is terrible too, because I'd love to be able to side with the Zionists because I have more in common with them as a people than I do with the Arabs.

But from my dialogue with you forum Zionists and forced, now more than ever, to soundly reject Zionist beliefs. You have demonstrated that you are immoral people that will go to any length to have your way. You are not above lying, and your government is not above murdering, in direct conflict with the laws that Moses prescribed to your tribe thousands of years ago.

Simply, you are hypocrits.

And now, for the sake of my own mental health, sanity, and need to move on to far more important things in my highly eventful life, I am forced to end my correspondances with you all.

Goodbye.

Same spammer

Spammer is back

Spammer is back

Spammer is back

Thats enough spammer kid

Are you done spamming now kid?

Are you done spamming now kid?

Are you done spamming now kid?

Are you done spamming now kid?

Thanks to the LA.IMC monitors for removing the Bible-spam. I urge all readers to hit the "OFF TOPIC" button when more Bible spam is posted in an effort to help LA.IMC monitors police these boards.

LUNCHBOX WRITES: "I can no more do that than you can show me any historic claim of the Jews to Palestine."

BECKY: Actually, showing the Jewish claims to sovereignty in Israel and what you call "Palestine" is not that difficult.

The Jewish claim to sovereignty of the Land of Israel is based on four prongs:

1. Historical -- A Jewish kingdom spanning a thousand years pre-dated Christianity or Islam by a millenium, in which a nation, with a distint language, history, culture, and religion observed rule of law. The original people, the Caananites either assimiliated or became extinct.

2. Occupancy and Nation Building -- Jews physically dwelling on the land continuously for 3,300 years. Only the Jews have built agricultural, industrial, and civil infrastructure, have their most Holy site located there, and currently house a nation of 9 million people with Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Legal -- In post-Holocaust shock, the world citizenry momentum was for a rectification for the beleagered Jewish people. UN resolution 181 (1948) established the State of Israel in British Mandate Palestine fulfilling obligations made previously under the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations Mandate. This also came to mean affirmation for some more orthodox Jewish sects allowing a return to Israel, despite lacking a Messiah. UN Resolution 242 (1967) gave temporary Israeli sovereignty to Israel of the West Bank and Gaza (and large parts of the Sinai peninsula) until a peaceful resolution could be reached between all the parties. Israel has already settled with Egypt and Jordan. By establishing the PA in 1993, Israel is attempting to establish a peaceful resolution with the Palestinian Arabs.

4. Religious --- According to Judaism, God gave the land to the Jews for a national homeland. Islam (chapt. 5, verse 2 of the Koran) affirms this. The Temple Mount is Judaism's most Holy site

Spammer is back and forging other peoples names

I prefer pork sausage probing me deep in places Jews won't go.

Paul LaRudee LOST his detention hearing and is slated to be deported. However, he can still appeal the decision.

His attorney argued he was NOT a bigshot at the ISM and that he was only a little piano tuner.

No one bought it.

He ALSO entered Israel on false papers with a false name.

He should be arrested when he returns to the USA.

see: www.stoptheism.com

"The Tel Aviv District Court decided today that ISM leader Paul LaRudee be deported from Israel. Sadly, Israeli law allows for an appeal so in keeping with ISM training, LaRudee will no doubt file the appeal to "resist" deportation.

Meanwhile, if he does so, take some time now and call the Diplomatic Security Service and demand his arrest on arrival in the United Staes for not only passport fraud since he obtained a new passport to violate the laws of a US ally and for fraudulent reasons.

The Diplomatic Security Service is responsible for prosecuting passport fraud and overseas crimes. You can reach them at 517-345-2506 and demand that LaRudee be prosecuted on landing back in the US, or call the local DSS office in your area."

This is precisely why the Knesset should find, if need be, a loophole in the existing Basic Laws and pass legislation targeted specifically at such trouble making wannabes to spare Israel's legal system of the time wasting attritious proceedings imposed on it by this person's likes.

Lee Kaplan, Dafka Exposed

By Will Wallace



Santa Cruz Community Television is offering up more than the usual community dish. Recently, Club Cruz, a locally produced television show, has been used as a platform for virtual infomercials for an extremist group with a record of harassing peace advocates.

The show, produced by Santa Cruz resident Becky Johnson, has featured on several occasions a man named Lee Kaplan, self-proclaimed founder and director of the extreme Zionist group, Dafka. During the episodes, Kaplan dominated the half-hour shows with inaccuracies about the Palestinian peace movement, negative stereotypes about Arabs and Islam, and potentially slanderous statements about widely respected groups such as Santa Cruz’s Resource Center for Nonviolence and Berkely’s MidEast Children’s Alliance and individuals involved with them. Intermittently throughout the show, addresses of Kaplan’s websites appeared across the screen and Kaplan invited viewers to visit the websites; he also promoted a book that was for sale on one of the websites. Each episode also featured a disgruntled Arab guest who shared negative opinions about Palestinians and Arabs from a presumed “insider’s” perspective. (One questions the authenticity of such guests, however, since Kaplan brags on his website about disguising himself and passing himself off as an Arab at various peaceful gatherings.)

Ron Holman, Programming Director at Community Television, said that even though some people may disagree with statements Kaplan makes, he is able to appear on their channels via their rules which set up the community stations as resource centers for the public as opposed to a television network model. Holman noted that an individual’s speech could be limited if he was inciting violence.

Though Kaplan didn’t directly call for violence in the episodes, a little fact checking showed that groups he is associated with have been busy hijacking and illegally intruding on peaceful meetings, harassing peace activists and making at least one death threat.

- October 5, 2003. After participating in a debate at UC Berkeley on Middle East relations, activist Allison Weir received a death threat from an individual identifying himself with Dafka.

-December 3, 2003. DAFKA follows and harasses traveling peace exhibition, Wheels of Justice; coordinates harassment campaign via internet site.

-June 5, 2004. Progressive Jewish Bay Area Peace Demonstration Harassed by Anti-Palestinian Groups.

-November 19, 2004. Code Pink Hayward meeting at local church hijacked by hate groups Dafka and Protest Warrior; verbal abuse and physical intimidation used against female peace activists.

In his website, www.dafka.org, Kaplan describes himself as chief editor, “investigative journalist, news bureau head, businessman and political activist.” In other media, however, he is listed with other titles, including “Contributing Editor” for David Horowitz’s www.frontpagemag.com website and West Coast Coordinator” of Students for Academic Freedom. A post by someone identifying himself as Lee Kaplan on santacruzindymedia.org stated “I do make a living doing research about the Middle East and am a professional journalist. People do drop a dime to read me....I have appeared internationally on radio as a commentator.” However, an extensive and exhaustive search yielded no information that could confirm Kaplan’s location, background, education, research and type of business. In addition, there no evidence was found that he had been published in print, as he insinuated.

Kaplan appears to be involved in a network of pro-militancy, pro-Israeli international public relations agents who advocate, among other things, for Israel to seize all lands held 2000 years ago and mandatory military or civil service for all residents of Israel . He’s also busy generating propaganda for a consortium of conservative websites with the aim of discrediting peace groups, activists, librarians and academics; recruiting college students in the Bay Area and Santa Cruz for his anti-Palestinian Peace Movement and academic censorship groups; and shaping U.S. policy on education through SAF and its associated groups.



What Does All of This Mean?



On a website found in Dafka’s Links section, Bernard Shapiro, head of the “Freeman Center for Strategic Studies,” describes a scheme for a worldwide public relations campaign with the ultimate aim of protecting the over six billion dollars Israel annually receives from the United States.

“I think it is time to take a second look at my concept but expand it to include radio, magazines, cable television (cable will accept this type of commercial) and newspapers. The ads should range from the very soft evocative travel type to some hard hitting but subtle political messages. Pretend that Israel is a corporation with a vast market in the United States. Receipts from that market top $6 Billion Dollars ( including US economic and military aid, UJA, Israel Bonds, JNF, plus all the other campaigns from Yeshivas to the Technion). What would you spend to protect a market of that magnitude? One half of one percent would equal $30 million. You can run for president with thirty million dollars. In a wild fantasy, lets say we have that much money. And let's say we hire a talented creative ad man to develop a multi-faceted, multi-media, and multi-year campaign to win the hearts and minds of the American people.”

Kaplan is a regular contributor to the Freeman website.

Like the “frontpagemag” operation, Students for Academic Freedom is one of several organizations under the leadership umbrella of David Horowitz . SAF doesn’t actually promote “freedom” as much as encouraging students to turn in their teachers for saying things they don’t like or giving them grades they don’t want. If this seems eerily similar to approaches used by fascist campaigns throughout the world, that’s because it is. This website includes organizing tools, blank complaint forms for students to pass out and an “Academic Bill of Rights,” which amounts to a plan for academic censorship. It also has a “National and State Legislation” section (on the left scroll-down menu) and files on teachers nationwide they deem to be “too liberal.” The homepage even includes an insult aimed the target audience --- a graphic of the “hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no-evil” monkeys, traditionally a representation of people who want to ignore reality.

Kaplan has not been content to simply recruit for members in our community; he has also used his platform to attack local politicians and activists who advocate for peace. Scott Kennedy, outgoing Santa Cruz mayor who signed the trailblazing City of Santa Cruz’s proclamation against the Iraq War, is one person Kaplan targeted for attacks on his website. Referring to the Resource Center for Nonviolence and Kennedy, Kaplan writes,

“..the ultimate in gall is that Scott likes to invoke the teachings of non-violence and tolerance of Martin Luther King. Would that Dr. King was still alive, he'd probably abandon non-violence for a moment and chuck ol' Scott upside the head. ....It is high time the Santa Cruz community recognize the hypocrisy of a center that is really a mouthpiece for Arab anti-Semitism and violence against Jews in the Middle East. Scott is an elected City Councilman there. When his term is up, I'm sure the majority of people who reside in Santa Cruz will turn him out. Perhaps this commentary can inform enough of them to do so.”

With this veiled threat by Kaplan, one is left to wonder whether or not his remarks about Kennedy had any influence on his recent defeat in the City Council race.

The Dafka website, which roughly translated means, “In your face!” in Hebrew, has an editorial voice much like Kaplan’s and Horowitz’s other projects. They vociferously attack any organization or individual that dares question the United States’ and Israel’s policies. Kaplan and Horowitz prefer to use semantic attacks against those they seek to silence with meaningless phrases meant to squelch all forms of discussion. An example of such a phrase is “stand with Israel.” Although the phrase conjures up a strong images of loyalty, what does it really mean? It insinuates, much like the phrase “support our troops,” that if someone doesn’t go along with what the author is advocating, then he somehow does not “stand with Israel,” or does not “support our troops.” Whenever someone challenges something Kaplan or Horowitz says, their stock reply is “Anti-Semitism!” This couldn’t be more ridiculous since they save their most vicious attacks for other Jews involved in the peace process and for Arabs, who are also by definition a Semitic people.

Lee Kaplan, like anyone else, has his right to free speech. What seems to be less clear, especially in the way Community Television is run, is how people are accountable for what they broadcast. As it stands now, only a producer can allow people access to past episodes of Club Cruz. One has to question if that makes an entity responsible for the content of their broadcasts, especially when, in the case of former mayor Scott Kennedy, Club Cruz broadcasts occur during City Council meetings.

Clearly, Lee Kaplan and his associates have an agenda: attack and discredit any entity that might lead to a slowing of money flowing into Israel. Judging by their slick websites and the many public relations experts employed, it is also a well-funded one. When community budgets are being slashed and local resources are drying up, how fair is it to allow a non-Santa Cruz County resident to broadcast his infomercials for free at the community’s expense? Under the current structure of Community T.V., Becky Johnson, producer of Club Cruz, is the only person accountable to the public for the content of the show. She is listed under Dafka’s website as a member and UCSC coordinator for Dafka; her email is listed as becky_johnson@sbcglobal.net. An alternative email address she listed on the Santa Cruz Indymedia site is becky_johnson222@hotmail.com.

In many of the websites associated with Kaplan, supporters are urged to inundate public officials, regulatory agencies and the media with their messages. Perhaps all those people Kaplan has been attacking really do have something to learn from him.

October 5, 2003. After participating in a debate at UC Berkeley on Middle East relations, activist Allison Weir received a death threat from an individual identifying himself with Dafka.



Clearly black ops/false flag - Alison's been milking this for years. At Sonoma State two years ago, she asked for a police escort to her car because she thought the "Zionists" were out to get her.

-December 3, 2003. DAFKA follows and harasses traveling peace exhibition, Wheels of Justice; coordinates harassment campaign via internet site.

That means they went to their presentations and pointed out the lies.

-June 5, 2004. Progressive Jewish Bay Area Peace Demonstration Harassed by Anti-Palestinian Groups.

That means they went to their demonstrations and pointed out their lies. This wasn't Dafka, btw. Check out San Francisco Voice for Israel

.San Francisco Voice for Israel-

www.sfvoiceforisrael.org/



-November 19, 2004. Code Pink Hayward meeting at local church hijacked by hate groups Dafka and Protest Warrior; verbal abuse and physical intimidation used against female peace activists.

They went to their presentation and pointed out the lies

October 5, 2003. After participating in a debate at UC Berkeley on Middle East relations, activist Allison Weir received a death threat from an individual identifying himself with Dafka.



Clearly black ops/false flag - Alison's been milking this for years. At Sonoma State two years ago, she asked for a police escort to her car because she thought the "Zionists" were out to get her.

-December 3, 2003. DAFKA follows and harasses traveling peace exhibition, Wheels of Justice; coordinates harassment campaign via internet site.

That means they went to their presentations and pointed out the lies.

-June 5, 2004. Progressive Jewish Bay Area Peace Demonstration Harassed by Anti-Palestinian Groups.

That means they went to their demonstrations and pointed out their lies. This wasn't Dafka, btw. Check out San Francisco Voice for Israel

.San Francisco Voice for Israel-

www.sfvoiceforisrael.org/



-November 19, 2004. Code Pink Hayward meeting at local church hijacked by hate groups Dafka and Protest Warrior; verbal abuse and physical intimidation used against female peace activists.

They went to their presentation and pointed out the lies

Please Audit Allison Wier!

Its dirty money but from where?

Why Zionism Is Racism

Zionism is a racist and irredeemable movement, like Bolshevism, Nazism, and Apartheid.

By Rabee' Sahyoun

Posted: 11 Rabi-u-Thani 1422, 3 July 2001

(Note: This article is a direct response, using the same format, on a line by line basis, to an editorial that appeared in the Montreal Gazette on April 26, 2001, written by Gil Troy, a Professor of History at McGill University.)

On this, the 53rd anniversary of the Nakbe' (the Catastrophe of the Palestinian people), it is all too tempting for friend and foe alike to define Israel, and zionism, solely by the Americans' proclamations of its enlightened democracy. To do so is to miss the normal atrocities that occur in Israel daily, the millions who are under curfew and blockade, starving and brutalized, in the Middle East's only colonized state. To do so is to feign the reality of zionism, a racist and irredeemable movement, that survived the twentieth centuries' other genocidal and seemingly passing revolutions such as Bolshevism, Nazism, and Apartheid.

A century ago, zionism extended Western colonialism to Palestine.

The sad truth is that over a century after its founding, zionism seems to be grander and more honorable than its reality. Arabs have suffered from Zionism's belligerence and exclusivity, and many have blamed the United States, and the West, for this because of their unshakeable support of zionism. Israeli aggression over the past seven months has finally renewed international recognition that zionism is racism.

On this anniversary of the Nabke', it is now up to all Jews to follow in the footsteps of the brave few, and denounce the racist and separatist nature of zionism, while the world should encourage them to do so. The world should not allow the torchbearers of zionism to silence and quell the idealism of these few. No nationalism is pure, no movement is perfect, no state is ideal, but today, Zionism persists as a menace, a militaristic and dictatory movement to me and to most Palestinians. A century ago, zionism extended Western colonialism to Palestine; today, as in the rest of the world, colonialism must be ideologically purged from Palestine.

I believe that zionism is racism, because 53 years after being exiled from their homeland, in defiance of the four Geneva Conventions, UN Resolutions 181, 194, 242, 338, and others, and other multilateral and international human rights conventions, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the disinherited refugees of Palestine, continue to endure merciless punishment from the Zionist entity, most recently in the bulldozing of makeshift homes in the Khan Younis refugee camp in Gaza.

I believe that zionism is racism, because I am a Palestinian, and without recognizing the colonialist component in zionism, I cannot explain its racist character, a western movement uprooting the native peoples of Palestine, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Samaritan alike, a people bound to their land, through centuries of raising orange groves, and herding sheep, lending grace to the Hills of God, historically, religiously and culturally.

I believe that zionism is racism, because it fails to appreciate or acknowledge the Palestinians' ties to their homeland, their love for their historical capital, Jerusalem, and the 53-yar plight they have endured as refugees worldwide, in Europe, in North America, in camps Dheishe, Shatila, Wehdaat and others, never giving up hope or struggle in yearning to return home.

I believe that zionism is racism, because it fails to admit the reality that the minority indigenous Jewish community in Palestine, that lived there for the last two thousand years, was an undistinguishable people from its Christian and Muslim Palestinian brethren, and that the leader of the Jewish community of the Jewish quarter of Old Jerusalem, Rabbi Lamram Blau, stood on the side of his Palestinian brothers and sisters being exiled in 1948.

I believe that zionism is racism because in modern times, the promise of liberal democracy and justice is a double-edged sword, preached by the Western powers, yet only paid lip-service to in the case of Israel, where Palestinian are continuously expelled, ethnically cleansed, and subjugated, and in the cases where they are assimilated, they are granted, limited, if any, civil rights.

I believe that zionism is racism, because in establishing the racially exclusive state of Israel, in 1948, and expelling the indigenous Palestinians from the land, the zionists severed a relationship that people had to the land for over 4,000 years, uninterrupted, since before Abraham.

I believe that zionism is racism, because in building Israel, the zionists were revising history, embracing the notion of racial superiority, an ideology that has empowered them to discriminate, with all of its associated social ills, injustices, and moral bankruptcy.

I believe that zionism is racism because it fails to distinguish between the nationalism of the American, based on multi-cultural harmony, and the racial exclusivity, separatism, ethnic cleansing, and brutality of zionism, that stands in clear violation of the most basic elements of international law and human rights practices, as most recently highlighted by reports issued by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

I believe that zionism is racism because in our world of post-modern identities, I know that we do not have to be "either-ors", we can be "ands and buts" – a zionist and a settler, an American citizen of Polish heritage but a soldier in the Israeli army.

I believe that zionism is racism because it self-propagates itself as a democratic movement. However, a democracy, cannot, by definition, only be representative of one community in a bi-national and tri-religious contiguous geographic area. A democracy cannot exist for one people and not for another. This as called Apartheid in South Africa, and is now called zionism in Palestine.

I believe that zionism is racism, because it espouses an independent and sovereign Jewish state, in a land where there is no Jewish majority. It espouses that such a sovereign state be at peace and harmony with its neighbors without allowing the Palestinian refugees dwelling within their borders, who were expelled from their homes in Palestine by zionist militias, as is clearly documented by numerous sources including the memoirs of David-Ben Gurion himself, to return to their homes, which is a basic human right guaranteed by Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

I believe that zionism is racism because it is presented by its champions, from Gil Troy to Elie Wiesel, as a romantic movement, which allowed zionists to reclaim the desert and build a model nation-state. This is racism at its most acute, since there was no desert in Palestine, other than the Negev in the South. This is simply a myth that has been propagated by racists who have supported Israel for the last 53 years, and economic data on agricultural exports to Europe from Palestine dating to medieval times easily rejects and exposes this as a blasphemous claim.

Yes, it sounds far-fetched today. But as Vladamir Jabotinsky, father of revisionist zionism said in a racist boast in 1923, "There can be no discussion of a voluntary reconciliation between us and the Arabs… Any native people…view their country as their national home… They will not voluntarily allow, not only a new master, but even a new partner… Colonization can have only one goal. For the Palestinian Arabs this goal is inadmissible. This is in the nature of things. To change that nature is impossible… colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population - an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would only be hypocrisy."

And thus, Gil Troy and zionists abound are exposed as nothing more than unabashed racists.

[Mr. Rabee' Sahyoun is a economic development policy researcher, human rights activist, and columnist residing in Beirut, Lebanon. He is affiliated with the global grassroots Palestine Right To Return Coalition.]

Attention LA Monitors:

The above post "Lee Kaplan: Dafka exposed!" by Will Wallace Dec 20 2004 contains libelous information.

please hide or remove it.

Wallace printed a retraction here: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2005/01/31/17184091.php

Thank-you in advance.