Che Clooney

From Good Night to Syriana, Clooney is heading in the right direction.

Perhaps he should consider examining democracy in America as envisioned by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence and the so-called democracy of the corporations we have now.

After that it will be time for the real thing.

>>Perhaps he should consider examining democracy in America as envisioned by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence<<

(1) The Declaration has nothing to do with democracy, or any other form of government, for that matter. It's a statement on the right of revolution; not the structure of government.

(2) Jefferson was deeply opposed to democracy.

sh(A)ne

Sh(A)ne, all that juvenile anarchy is goin' to your head.

If the satement below has nothing to do with democracy then your (A)narchy is of the dictionary kind.



We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He calls himself an anarchist but defends corporations.

If the satement below has nothing to do with democracy then your (A)narchy is of the dictionary kind
I'm not sure what you mean by "the dictionary kind" (and I'm too darn lazy to pull mine out & see), but I'll ignore that for now & stick to the point:

No, the passage you've quoted doesn't have anything to do with democracy. (I have a copy of the Broadside hanging right here by my desk, which may save you some typing next time.) Notice the following:
"all...are endowed...with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
If you have "unalienable" rights, then you're not living in a democracy. In a democracy, all "rights" can be voted away on the whim of the majority. If there are things that are written into law, that are outside the reach of the democratic process, then it's not a democracy!

If you have "liberty", then you're not living in a democracy. In a Democracy, your actions are only permitted at the pleasure of the majority -- there is no restriction that can't be placed upon you at any time, according to the majority's will.

In a democracy, there are no rights. The majority of voters rule. In the Republic that Jefforson & co created, we're governed by the "rule of law", rather than by majority rule. These two systems are fundamentally different. This is true despite the fact that so many politicos these days use the terms interchangeably (-- perhaps because the ruling power is always trying to gain more control -- something it can't do within a Constitutional republic, but can within a democracy --).
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Here again, the Declaration is talking about the right of revolution; not about a specific structure of government. The body of the document is a list of reasons that are intended to justify, "to a candid world," the colonies' decision to, "institute new Government", and abolish the old.

Nothing in the Declaration is about democracy. Democracy was widely feared by the founders. Go back to the Federalist papers -- specifically Federalist #10: Madison writes:
A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is such that democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security...
This is but one example among many that show the absolute aversion that the founders had to "democracy". It's not something we should want -- it's not a safe place...especially if you're in the minority!

sh(A)ne
the dictionary anarchist, I guess

and I've come to expect more of you. :(

Shane is a tool. He calls himself an anarchist but defends corporations.

What are you talking about? Are you drunk? Where is this coming from?

You will never ever ever find anything that I have ever ever ever written that defends a corporation. I'm a free-market capitalist. Corporations are government-created entities, i.e., they wouldn't exist in a free-market. I don't like them any more than you do. (Though I certainly do consider the coercive power of the state to be a greater threat.)

sh(A)ne

in defence of johnk

He is most likely young and the Waco massacre not vivid in his memory.

He should do some digging.

Free market piracy without regulation is Fascism in the purest form..

>>He is most likely young and the Waco massacre not vivid in his memory. <<

It's strange -- I hear that a lot. I think I present myself in a fairly reasonable, well-thought-out way. I think I come across as pretty well educated & well read. Why is it that so many people on the left end of the political spectrum are so ready to dismiss me as young & inexperienced?

Personally, I think it's because there's an underlying belief that you know what's best, and that other people are not as well qualified to run their own lives, as you are to run them on their behalf. Personally, I think it's the undercurrent of elitism that flows through every single one of the left's political theories; and that motivates every one of the left's political initiatives. (Don't get me wrong -- the new right, with their "let's legislate morality" crap is just as bad; but with you guys, it's uglier, because you pretend that it doesn't exist.)

Personally, I think this is why every attempt to order society by your principles results in the emergence of a totaletarian dictator, who oppresses those who disagree with his high-and-mighty beliefs, committing unspeakable atrocities & massive suffering, in the name of "what's best for the people".

Maybe I am young. Don't be foolish enough write my ideas off because of it.

I was speaking for johnk unless you are also claiming this as a reason for being a touch rude. johnk has put down a lot of sharp and thoughtful commentary. He might be uninformed.

Hmm. Yeah, I completely took what you were saying the wrong way. I can see what you meant now.

I do have a lot of people try to write my ideas off when I post to the IMC sites -- usually people like to claim that I'm either "paid for by xxx corporation", or "young & naiive" (for example, in the second post in this thread), so I guess I assumed that's what you were saying too. I apologize for the rant.

sh(A)ne