Life without undocumented immigrants - effects on economy.

Undocumented immigrants get a lot of the blame for America's problems, but they don't deserve it. The government's bill for feeding, healing, and clothing them is balanced by the taxes they pay and the money they spend.

While they are heavily concentrated in a few places, they have only a minor effect on national population growth. Politicians who favor extreme measures to get rid of them aren't helping anyone - they are only scaring people in a cynical attempt to get votes.

Between 225,000 and 300,000 undocumented immigrants are added to the U.S. population of 264 million every year, according to estimates by the Census Bureau and the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) respectively. They account for 9 to 12 percent of population growth. But 40 percent of undocs live in California, 15 percent in New York, 11 percent in Florida, and 10 percent in Texas, according to the Urban Institute. Another 10 percent live in Illinois, New Jersey, and Arizona. In these key states and some big cities, the foreign-born are part of a demographic and economic transformation that frightens native-born Americans. Elsewhere, they are insignificant.

Do undocs hurt the economy? Probably not. Providing public education for children of undocumented immigrants costs about $3.1 billion in the seven key states in 1993-94, according to the Urban Institute. Undocumented immigrants in prison cost about $471 million a year, and they consume about $445 million more in Medicaid funds. But these costs are offset by about $1.9 billion in taxes paid by undocs and billions more in consumer spending. Impoverished field workers from Mexico get all the publicity, but the INS estimates that only 31 percent of undocumented immigrants are Mexican. And of the 1.7 million undocumented workers who applied for citizenship in 1987, less than 4 percent were in farming, fishing, or forestry. In contrast, over 4 percent were executives, managers, or professionals; 21 percent held service jobs; and 24 percent were operators, fabricators, or laborers. Undocumented immigrants are consumers, too.

If we built a 2,000-mile wall through the desert, who would pick our crops, wash our dishes, and clean our hotel rooms? Agribusiness and hospitality firms would almost certainly persuade Congress to allow temporary workers to come north, and the flow would begin again. Some say that we should kick undocs out so that American citizens can have these dirty, low-paying jobs. But wouldn't we get further by focusing our efforts on the challenge of creating better jobs?

Undocumented immigration is a crime. Like most categories of crime, it can be controlled but not eliminated. The damage it does to our country is minor compared to the damage done by real problems like handgun violence, substandard schools, or polluted water.



So let's give the Border Patrol the tools they need, then turn our attention back to the real issues. Persecuting undocumented immigrants is about blame and racism. It’s a waste of time.

If you are considering joining the Antis i.e. SOS, Minutemen, Friends of the Border, please realize that you could be using your time in a more constructive manner. Not only that, but do you really want to join a group that appeals to Neo-Nazis and the Sheets?

"So let's give the Border Patrol the tools they need, then turn our attention back to the real issues"

What are you implying here, giving the border patrol more weapons, higher wall, more trucks.? I guess you agree with SOS after all.

"Their costs are balanced by the taxes they pay"

That is a bold faced lie. the cost of emergency room services, ambulance service, police response is in the thousands of dollars per response not including the emergency room and its Doctors and Nurses who must be paid.

Illiegals dont pay income taxes, its all under the table!

How much could someone picking lettuce pay out in taxes anyways? They make so little they would be exempt from state income tax. The cost per illiegal to the state and federal government (taxpaying citizens) exceeds what the illiegals pay into the system by at least $100.00 to $1.00 and in many cases thousands to one.

I dont mind paying $10.00 per head of lettuce if it means an American citizen is picking it and we can get the financial burden of Mexico's and Latin America's unemployed of the Taxpayers Dole.

Sorry to inform you, but the Dept of Labor, INS, IRS, State Franchise Tax Board and US Census all have proven that there are no more than 3 million undocs in the US.

If you have a source that has a system of collecting statistics, conduction national surveys, tracking labor employment than any of the agencies above, please let everyone know who they are.

I bet you get your info from Vdare, Ameican Patrol, CCIR and similar hordes.

In response to: "So let's give the Border Patrol the tools they need, then turn our attention back to the real issues"

Lal wrote:

What are you implying here, giving the border patrol more weapons, higher wall, more trucks.? I guess you agree with SOS after all.

=====================

I haven't said anything yet, so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

The tools I'm speaking about might include providing a safe crossing for migrants, so don't jump to conclusions - it’s another topic

If they have a fake SSN or use someone else's, they pay income tax... on someone else's SSN. They won't get that money back.

You said: "If we built a 2,000-mile wall through the desert, who would pick our crops, wash our dishes, and clean our hotel rooms?"

I'll tell you who... the 11 million illegals that are ALREADY HERE. And if they left today, their jobs would be taken by the people who used to do them before illegals took all of those jobs... AMERICAN CITIZENS.

> the cost of emergency room services, ambulance

> service, police response is in the thousands of

> dollars per response not including the emergency

> room and its Doctors and Nurses who must be paid.

Yeah, I used to have that ignorant opinion, too, and even had it on the opening page of The Dark Wind's web site -- untill I started doing actual research and learned otherwise.

So. Mr. English. Would you care to back up your ignorant claim with evidence? You may provide URLs to any legitimate source of factual information, if you wish. (Hint: National Vanguard, Save Our State, Minutemen, Aryan Nations, Klu Klux Klan and related web sites are _not_ letgitimate sources. Just so you know.)

Thanks! I look forward to your amazing, factual, falsifiable references.

Check your history, undocs have always be about 1/5 of the agribusiness in the Southwestern US. the other 4/5 have been mostly Mexican Americans.

Sorry, there are not 11 million unducs, three may be 5 million max, but most verifiable stats show the max to be 3.5 mil.

Right.

What we find is that hospitals, schools, and other infrastrure doesn't suffer inappropriately fromp illegal immigrants utilizing such facilities.

I suppose racists It would find it nice if they could blame low student educational marks and the growing occult stupidity among the American populace on illegal immigrants dragging everyone else down, but the fact of the matter is that it's the fault of parents in this country not giving a damn about their kid's education -- or thinkiing the schools will hand-hold their kid's through the years to ensure they're properly educated.

It just isn't so. Illegals utilize such facilities, absolutely, but they do so in numbers roughly equal to citizens. At the same time racists seem to think that illegals don't _pay_ for their services. That's also a claim no racist has managed to back up with falsifiable evidence.

Typical non-response.

If Mexicans are such great people, why is Mexico such a hell hole?

Why are American cities that are infested with them being turned into filthy, stinking barrios? Why are they so damned dirty?

If you need proof, just walk in Mexican occupied Los Angeles or Santa Ana. The smell, let alone the appearance is enough to gag you.

Nintey per cent of whites pass the high school exit exam. Only ab out 65% of the Latinos and Blacks can pass it. Whites get the hell out of dodge because they don't want their children brutalized by minority savages. Then the minorities blame their own lack of academic achievement on the dirty rotten white racists who ran away.

You ignore every single fact that is obvious to anyone. Mexicans do not bring prosperity. They bring the poverty and the same dysfunctional disgusting culture that destroyed any chance of Mexico to rise from the gutter into America with them and they are destroying our culture too. They're like vermin with high breeding rates. They will overwhelm us by force of numbers and then when they drag us down to the level of Mexico, where will they go then?

Oppression has created the poverty in the US, not the undocs.

Racism is a cancer in American Society.

If it hadn’t been for Mexico funding 80% of the American Revolution, you would still be bowing to a Monarch.

I live in a city that is over 80% Latino and we are the third richest city in our county. The first is 65% Latino, the second 47%. Neither of the three cities has a slum.

When you look at what you call barrios, you are only looking at the barrios that are in poverty, which is only were 15% of all Latinos live. You're assumptions are drastically in error.

> I live in a city that is over 80% Latino and we are the

> third richest city in our county. The first is 65% Latino,

> the second 47%. Neither of the three cities has a

> slum.

In the City of Azusa, Covina, West Covina, San Dimas, Glendora, and LaVerne, we have large percentages of Hispanic families in our communities. Not a one of them are "slumsm," either.

It's also true that there are _gangs_ in these cities, some large, some small. That's a problem. However I'd like to know how many Hispanic gang members are in the country illegally and how many are citizens. I'd expect we'd find a higher percentage of citizen gang members than non-citizen.

When racists refer to cities with non-whites in them as "slums," they're refering to their own distaste at seeing what they perceive to be as a decline in white supremacy.

And the thing of it is, they're right. Eventually CSouthern California is going to be overwhelmingly non-white. That undeniable, unavoidable phenomena is eventually going to sweep the United States. May take centuries, but it's going to happen.

I think that's what racists fear the most.

Gangs and Drop Outs are the greatest obstacles facing the Latino community.

Although less than 1% of the entire Latino population is in a gang, the Homeboyesque culture is predominant among the youth.

Not all Cholos are gang bangers, and many move on to become productive citizens. But the stigma remains and many people assume that most Latinos identify with gang life - we don't.

In San Diego, ICE arrested over 300 suspected gang members and only 18 were undocs.

The drop out problem is very real and many people, including yours truly, is working on finding solutions. One of the main problems is that these youth see a grim future even if they do complete high school.

There is a peculiar situation going on with Latinos when it comes to education. Even though the HS drop out rate is high, more Latinos are completing college.

You said: "Oppression has created the poverty in the US, not the undocs.

Racism is a cancer in American Society. "

Here's a news flash for you... Today, most poverty in the US is due to cultural inertia, where some people simply do not have an achievement mentality. This situation is preserved by the culture they live in. The Hip Hop and Rap culture is a shining example of this. The simple fact is that ALL societies will ALWAYS have poor people. Most who are born into poverty in the US and remain in poverty are poor due to their own decisions. Any rational adult can choose to leave poverty if they apply themselves. I'm one example of this.

Second news flash... Racism exists in EVERY country... including Mexico. And quite frankly, minorities are treated very well in the US. I've been to 19 different countries and I can tell you from first hand experience that minorities have it made here. If you want to see REAL OPPRESSION go spend some time in the arab Middle East. Then come back and lecture about how 'oppressive' it is here.

Tip a glance at the major colleges and you see asians from families who really care and drive hard to acquire education for their children. I listen to that Ebonics crap and that "rap" crap and am constantly amazed that people would deliberately oppress _themselves_.

Sit job applicant down in a chair and interview them, one applicant who speaks with phrases like, "ain't no down wid dat" and such crap, and another application who speaks _English_ -- and guess which one gets the job. Guess which one winds up having kids that are also unable to get jobs.

What's his name... Bill Cosby. He wrote an open letter denouncing the willful dumbing down of English in the United States and also underscored the stupidity of body piercing and the wearing of "traditional African clothes" which weren't traditional, just clothes designed to cater to rubes who thought they were "returning to their roots."

Oppression comes from within and without. I had to work hard for what I've accomplished and I've never been given anything I didn't have to work for. I see kids expecting everything to be given to them, unwilling to speak English or behave civilly, rude, noisy, outlandish behaviors, and see people who will wind up having kids who also will be oppressed and suppressed, solely because of their own failings.

And then blame it on "the system" or "the man."

It _is_ true that there's massive racism and hatred out there, and it _is_ true that "the system" will suppress racial and behavioral traits. But most of that is inpersonal, economics based, not hate based.

> I've been to 19 different countries / arab Middle East.

and of course no proof of any one of those nineteen chances to show you aren't just a troll talking BS

so - let a few days, a week go by and you're back at it again

the same old "everything I say is right - no proof required, but for anyone who disagrees even solid proof means nothing"



hey tramp - I'm obsessed with your genitals

wanna take that test again ?

better yet let's post some dirt on your belly up mom & pop shop, mom.

and pop's hobby.. or better still Gary's bread & butter cover

"Gangs and Drop Outs are the greatest obstacles facing the Latino community. "

Both of which can be traced back to the almost nonexistent value on education that exists in the Hispanic culture.

Then again, being inundated with inane Mexican television shows, all of which feature fat, short guys in bee suits and having to grow up with a steady diet of polka music will tend to dull the senses.

I have never been treated well. I don’t care about what other countries do. My only concern is the US, land of my birth. Yet, I am treated like a foreigner in my own country. You mention Mexico as if that’s supposed to shut me up. I’m Chicano. Chicanos are Americans.

Below are examples of what I had to face, and still do, to reach my success. It’s true that it’s up to the individual, but racism makes it even harder and I have seen many of the kids I grew up with just give up, because no matter how good they did – Whites have always found a way to discredit their efforts. In the same way you are trying to justify racism and accuse the victim for being victimized.

In primary school, my mouth was washed out with soap fro speaking Spanish. I was told that Mexicans were dirty and that I gave Mexicans a bad name.

I was put in "Bone Head" classes along with all the other Mexicans and Blacks in the predominantly white school I went to.

I scored 1475 on my SATs and was told that it was too low to consider college as an option.

I have 2 college degrees, but am treated as though I have never attended a day of school.

When I was a college teacher, I was arrested and accused of being in a gang. I showed the police my teacher’s ID and they threw it in the street.

Today, I hold a position of power, but I am always accused of getting my job to meet a quota or because I am bilingual.

I put "White" on my applications and refuse to get special treatment for being a minority (now a majority in many cities) and I am willing to accept the same treatment as whites.

The contributions of my ancestors have been complete ignored in the annals of American history. Today, the Chicano culture is under attack and you dare to tell me that the racists attacks are justified because they are not as bad as they are in other countries.

I can summarize your statements to one phrase “America, Love it or Leave it.” which is an empty statement and is nothing more than refusing responsibility for a culture whose majority condones oppression because it’s not as bad as other countries.

In response to Pachuco: "Gangs and Drop Outs are the greatest obstacles facing the Latino community. "

fresca wrote: "Both of which can be traced back to the almost nonexistent value on education that exists in the Hispanic culture. "

==================

That is so incorrect.

The reason the Drop Out rate is high among Chicanos (don’t include all Hispanics) is because we don’t see any use in getting an education when the system that is run by racism and White Privilege will never accept us.

We see many of our people try hard to enter the system, only to end up beaten and disillusioned.

This is extremely evident from day one of kindergarten when children see Chicano adults treated as second class citizens, power struggles that Chicano adults can never win, because the rules constantly change to ensure failure.

As children, our Chicano parents have told us how important an education is and that we must try hard to finish school. Do you know how hard it is for us to go into the world willing to learn only to be hit in the face with the reality that no matter how educated we become, we will always be excluded from society?

Chicanos do value education, but we have yet to benefit from an education in the US. I have stated that I have 2 college degrees, but am treated as though I’m uneducated.

Our schoolbooks ignore the contributions Mexicans have made to the development of the US. Did you know that Mexico funded 80% of the American Revolution and sent troops of Mestizos, Indians and Spaniards to block the English from attacking the US from the west?

Gang members make up less than 1% of the Chicano population. A number equal to the amount of white gang members, Hells Angels et al, Aryan Brotherhood, KKK. You don’t hear Chicanos accusing all whites of being gangsters because 1% of their race is in gangs.

The Homeboyesque style is prevalent in the Chicano community, but it is not indicative of gang membership. Most gang members become productive citizens when they reach adulthood, about 30% end up losers.

I made a post about achievement, poverty, etc... and you reply with ...

"hey tramp - I'm obsessed with your genitals

wanna take that test again ?

better yet let's post some dirt on your belly up mom & pop shop, mom.

and pop's hobby.. or better still Gary's bread & butter cover "



Are you serious? You call this an argument? Let me guess... you went to a government school.

You're a perfect example of everything that's wrong with the non-sensical Left in this country. You've made it crystal clear that you have't a single cogent thought in that soft cranium of yours.

As for my visits to 19 different countries... you want proof? How about if I send you some photos, "Hex"? Would that be proof enough for you? Give me your e-mail address and I'll be HAPPY to send them.

Where have you been, "Hex"? Lets hear it...

Sent troops (including the ferocious Mestizo legion!) to stop English attacks from the West?

Where did you learn that, Nativo Lopez High?

I've been to Mars - here's me looking at the camera

now I'm right about anything I talk about...

> Both of which can be traced back to the almost

> nonexistent value on education that exists in the

> Hispanic culture.

Jesus Fucking H. Christ.

I can not believe anyone could actually type that claim.

Sparkhammer wrote:

Mexico funded the Revolution?

Sent troops (including the ferocious Mestizo legion!) to stop English attacks from the West? Where did you learn that, Nativo Lopez High?

=================

I got the information from the Sons of the American Revolution (Mexican Chapter) and the US Department of Defense.

Mexico also kicked French ass -- but then everyone has. }:-}

"

That is so incorrect.

The reason the Drop Out rate is high among Chicanos (don’t include all Hispanics) is because we don’t see any use in getting an education when the system that is run by racism and White Privilege will never accept us. "

C'mon. Give us a break. That argument is sooooo incredibly lame and tired that it hardly even warrants a response.

You know as well as anyone how little education is stressed in the Hispanic community. To deny it is foolish. It may not "feel good" to acknowledge it but it's true nonetheless.

Of course, you'll keep blamimg whitey and your "homeboys" will continue to grow up proudly unable to read.

Don't mind fresca and crew, their ambient racism is self-evident.

As well as their enabling ignorance.

Thanks for the vote of encouragement.

Fresca wrote: "Of course, you'll keep blamimg whitey and your "homeboys" will continue to grow up proudly unable to read."

The Aztlan movement is based on these principles:

Aztlan is an attitude of personal, political, social and economic empowerment necessary to master one's own destiny. We encourage that Chicanos take responsibility for how they live and that they expect every Chicano child to obtain a college degree or become self-employed.

That is our attitude and what we teach our children. Even though our high school drop out rate is high, more Chicanos are graduating from college and entering the political arena.

We will change our communities and ensure that tour children are not denied the opportunities they strive for.

Why isn't your Aztlan doing all this for the people in the southern territories of such. Are you striving to educate all the children or empower them in the Aztlan area south(Mexico). It doesn't seem that way. That area seems to be more politically repressed, weak on education; high on unemployment, and extremely short on opportunities for young people. And yet that is right in the heart of Aztlan. And there are really no shortages of resources there. What gives?

"We encourage that Chicanos take responsibility for how they live and that they expect every Chicano child to obtain a college degree or become self-employed. "

Hey I'm all for it. If nothing else at least alot of my neighbors might figure out how to take down their Christmas lights within a month or two. But I digress.

Your "movement" may have lofty noble goals but clearly not much in the way of followers.

If your culture was ready for advancement we would have seen it SOMEWHERE south of the border by now.

Hex said: "I've been to Mars - here's me looking at the camera ... now I'm right about anything I talk about... "

Translation: I lack the mental capacity to actually argue a point, so I'll just humor myself with juvenile pranks.

Now... don't you need to get back to the drive-thru counter?

" Jesus Fucking H. Christ.

I can not believe anyone could actually type that claim. "

Why? Because it's so irrefutable and common sense rarely shows up around here?

Surely even you aren't foolish enough to argue this simple fact.

Ah, you probably are.

drive-thru counter

thank you drive thru



I work in electronics - the machines I operate cost an average of $ 50,000 each



those 19 countries beg the troll



Pachuco I support over 90 % of your views however I recommend you ignore "fresca" who is only here to waste everyones time - she'll egg you on endlessly and never accept anything you try to prove no matter what the source

here's an example

I posted some pictures of Rabbi's protesting in front of the whitehouse

first she claimed I "photoshopped" (faked) them

then I posted the website's location where they came from

she said THEY faked them

then I posted matching video footage of the exact same scenes

she then shut up - but only for a few days

a few days later she went *right back to claiming they were fake*

when I posed the question "what about the matching video ?" she simply ignored the question



she was doing this constantly - going from one thread to the next. she's been doing it for years on here

then one day she openly admitted she's just playing these games on purpose to waste our time

for her own amusement

I screen captured that as proof it's a complete waste of time to reply to her



that's the picture I posted

she is not only intentionally wasting everyone's time she's "gleefull" about doing so

the classic defination of a toll

she just "came back" over the past day after sheepdog (who's almost as bad as her BTW) brought her up - she's been heavyly baiting anyone she can desperatly seeking responses

trolls live on people's attention

you see I don't reply to her directly - no matter what troll bait she throws at me

the reason is I know it's a complete waste of my time to do so - sheepdog is almost a complete waste as well

he attempts to post spam every so often and it nearly always gets hidden

sometimes I will comment when he does to show people what real science is to contrast the flake shit he pretends is science

all the rest - him calling me names like "slime", "BS degree", "whizz", etc is the same trolling "fresca" does

he's trying to muddy the issue using such diversionary tactics - that and like "fresca" never accepts any proof no matter where it's from

Sheepdog is Bill Gallagher - a scam artist who sells fake jewelry, fake antiques and fake information. He's been using IMC's for free advertising..

Fresca is Clara Lyle - Ned's wife, they had a mom & pop computer shop that went belly up recently but which used to host a right-wing extremist terroristic website which Ned is still connected to

The website's members - mosty Gary, used to attack this and several other IMC's and a few other websites - then brag about it claiming he's "untouchable"

I tracked him down and he's laying low now, because I revealed he's using an important company's internet connection illegaly that he is supposed to only provide internet support for..

the company can't take the heat of being connected to his death threats and hacking, so he can't hang around and continue to draw attention to himself

Ned posts as BA - bush admirer, Clara sometimes uses his handle as well

anytime I post data exposing either thier shop or Gary's client company they all go away - for awhile

Clara in particular ghosts this newswire sometimes posting as other handles, but mostly waits for an opening to start her shit again

sheepdog just provided it my bringing her name up - that's her cue that she can get a reaction out of at least him, so she can start trolling again

he's almost as bad as her anyway so the two of them play together trying to draw other people in

I only expose her - I only expose him

that's not very satisfying to either one of them so they desperately attempt to draw other people into the troll games

Her favorite tactic is to post insulting challenges to "prove" something using inflammatory rhetoric, while Bill's favorite tactic is to post tin hat wild claims then post insulting challenges to "prove" otherwise - and *just like her* - no proof is ever good enough..

they both have the same mode of operation - she does it for fun and he does it for profit

I'm giving you fair warning now that they are both a waste of time, as nothing you ever post will be good enough to "convince" them

they're not here to learn, just as Tim (the newest troll) isn't either

all 3 of them are here to waste our time and nothing more

if you invest time into debating with them you'll see that sooner or later

I thought I'd save you the effort by letting you know up front what they are doing

now watch the fur & feathers fly...

then watch me ignore them

AyatollahGondola wrote:

“Why isn't your Aztlan doing all this for the people in the southern territories of such. Are you striving to educate all the children or empower them in the Aztlan area south(Mexico). It doesn't seem that way. That area seems to be more politically repressed, weak on education; high on unemployment, and extremely short on opportunities for young people. And yet that is right in the heart of Aztlan. And there are really no shortages of resources there. What gives?”

===================

The obstacles we face are opposition to, and dismantling of, programs that make any strides in any direction that empower the Chicano community. Though there are ample resources, they are not the resources we need; they equate to the bones you would throw at dogs.

We are kept busy fighting off profiling; gerrymandering that steals our political power to govern ourselves; slum lords; low wages; poor quality education; intrusion in our communities by groups that oppose multiculturalism; denial of our contributions to the development of the US and its culture; stereotyping, racism; drugs; segregation, etc, etc, etc. All these obstacles have hindered our momentum and we refer to it as oppression.

We have made major strides in the political arena of Aztlan, which will serve to build a solid foundation for the up and coming generation that is being groomed to focus on the needs of the Latino community. One example is MIT’s Michael A. Mendez and his thesis entitled Latino Lifestyles and the New Urbanism http://www.latinonewurbanism.org/files/MendezThesis.pdf.

Even though the HS drop out rate is high among Latinos, the percentage of Chicanos graduating from college has increased significantly.

Fresca wrote:

"We encourage that Chicanos take responsibility for how they live and that they expect every Chicano child to obtain a college degree or become self-employed. "

Hey I'm all for it. If nothing else at least alot of my neighbors might figure out how to take down their Christmas lights within a month or two. But I digress.

Your "movement" may have lofty noble goals but clearly not much in the way of followers.

If your culture was ready for advancement we would have seen it SOMEWHERE south of the border by now.

=============

The Chicano Movement is American, not Mexican. We are going to change America again with Chicanismo. Don't forget we gave America the Coyboy culture.

We are not looking for followers, just leaders.

We will reach our lofty goals, brick by brick. We may be shooting for the stars, but where ever we land, we’ll start climbing.

FYI, Mexico is not a Third World country, it is an indigenous country that would prefer to return to its Pre-Columbian roots. To the indigenous, civilizing has always meant de-Indianizing, imposing the ways of the Europe.

Sal Alinsky wrote the 13 Rules for Radicals and one of those rules is to use ridicule because there is no defense against it.

I have found a defense; when you respond with coherent debate everyone will see, sooner or later, that your opponent is nothing more than a heckler.

I've noticed a small change in Fresca. She has shown signs that she understands that Chicanos are being proactive in improving their condition.

of acting like she's starting to see the light to draw you into not totally ignoring her, then reverting right back to where she started

her hero is Ann Coulter - who she tries to emulate;

Ann Coulter is a freakin' joke. No she is not intelligent (albeit she is smart enough to know that if you pander to small minded conservative wing-nuts, you'll make a bunch of $$$$$). She is also a total liar and manipulator of the truth, check any of her facts and you will see that she has misrepresented the truth, taken someone's word's out of context, or completely lied.

There's is nothing funnier than watching Al Franken rip Coulter a new one on all the lies she tells. She now no longer responds to him because he brings all the factual evidence and references with him to dispute her comments and leaves her looking like the complete raving idiot that she is.



Clara uses the same language, same inflammatory rhetoric (matter of fact most of the time she simply pastes Ann's rhetoric word-for-word) She rarely types anything from her own mind, and when she does it's usually very short & stupid

All you have to do to prove this is copy some of "Frescas" postings (do a search on here for "fresca" and you'll get thousands of examples) and paste them into google..

Ann Coulter will pop up hit after hit, usually with those keyword groups in bold type...

I cited her on this one time and she tried to deny it (as usual)

If you do the same for me , no hits will come up excepting my own or other people quoting me

99 % of what I post is my own words without spellchecking either - your talking to a real person here with his own thoughts..

When you talk to her your talking to an Ann Coulter parrot as searchs will reveal..

So even when she "plays nice" it's still of no value as your points simply are discarded or used later to quote out of context to attack

She's never admitted to being wrong - ever, about anything, there's never any subject her "knowledge" isn't always better/right about, and nothing you say - no proof you post is ever good enough even though all she does is make rhetorical claims with the extremely rare paste from a right-wing biased source which of course is gospel

I was wrong about the Iraq rape pictures really being Russian porn shots, and know little about Anarchism..

You'l never see such admissions from either her or sheepdog - ever - because they never admit to being wrong about anything, and there's never any limit to their knowledge no matter what the subject..

this is one way to tell whether your dealing with a real person or a troll - trolls are always perfect, real people have flaws and make mistakes, don't know everything..

real people are willing to admit and accept - trolls are not

ps - since I brought up their store and Gary, it's rendered them mute for awhile

awhile

in a bit they'll be back - once they think it's safely forgotten

this pattern has repeated itself more times than I can remember

the trolls run away from the truth like frightened children -

on average they stay away 2 days but it's highly varible

" Sheepdog is Bill Gallagher"

Bravo!

Hex you've done it again!

You've uncovered yet another of your nemesis' identifications.

Well done.

Anything to add to this sheepdog?

The mental illness just keeps on spreading.

Highly entertaining.

often she will respond immediately if you taunt her by bring up how she hides, or better yet insult her hero - Ann

look at the timestamps - she was ghosting



the mentally ill has spoken

(hi - nice to meet you, why yes I *am* a real person, thanks for noticing !)

hey - tell us what *you've* been WRONG about -

silence begins here ---------------------------------------

God, I've missed you Hex.

Your craziness is the single most entertaining component of this board. And that's on a board rife with a rich and deep history of pure lunacy and conspiracy theories (Sheepdog).

Anyway, it's good tpo have you back. I figured I had run you off a few months ago but I see you've remarshalled and have trudged back in. Crazier than ever.

So, I see you have Sheepdog pegged as some guy and you have me nailed down as three different people at varying times.

Who's next on your list?

It's good to see that I can still FORCE you to waste time.

By the way, White Sox over the Yankees in 6.

gotta go waste some time - 8 hours to be exact

(at least I get paid for it - ha ! )

" The Chicano Movement is American, not Mexican."

You seem very well intentioned and fairly astute but you can't honestly belive that your "movement" is ever going to actually amount to anything far reaching.

Not unless your ranks are filled by non-mexicans.

You and whatever colleagues you have are an anomoly. You only need drive around Highland Park to see what a shithole it is because of the very aesthetics and values of the culture you're trying to promote on a large scale. Houses falling to shit with trash all over the lawns. Couches and furniture thrown out into the gutter. A million babies running around playing with their mothers' WIC cards.

C'mon. You have to change all that first. And by that time all you've done is advanced and assimillated.

Aztalan is simply a silly idea.

Aztlan will work in spite of your pessimism. Aztlan is our willingness to reform our culture and improve our condition. We do not possess a strong enough economic base to renovate the barrios, our entrance into the political arena has barely begun; we are barely warming up for our turn to bat.

Things will change dramatically in the next ten years. I see a great opposition building up that will try to prevent us from reaching any sort of control over our own destinies.

You continue to say that the reason Chicanos are in the sorry state of educational and economical poverty is our lack of ambition and I say it’s due to the resistance we endure when we try to “Pull Ourselves Up by Our Own Boot Straps”.

Why are you so intent on ridiculing our efforts and minimizing the Aztlan attitude when you should be encouraging us to succeed? As Americans, we should have the support of other Americans, but the truth is revealed that we are not considered Americans and that is oppression.

well well well ,

if it aint our old Colonialist Aplologizer

friend pocoku !

he must of took abreak from powdering his

wig for the audience with king ferdinand.

your dookie still stinks homie

I asked why it isn't working in mexico; Not why it isn't working here.

In mexico, there are already millions of Aztlanders, right? Why are they not able to make all of those changes that you mentioned, in mexico?

Just so that there will be no more distraction from the issues by posting readily available information like it was some treasure that no one else could possibly find:

My name is Davi Rodrigues

I live in Sacramento

I am a member of

SOS

Alipac

Teamamericapac

Latino caucus

There are actually too many organizations to list here, but they are all public.

I do not belong to any organizations that pledge allegiance, or salute to a foreign government, flag, or constitution. Only that of the United States of America.

So that means I do not support or belong to the nazis, nor would I salute their flag.

AyatollahGondola wrote: "I asked why it isn't working in mexico; Not why it isn't working here.

In mexico, there are already millions of Aztlanders, right? Why are they not able to make all of those changes that you mentioned, in mexico?"

=====================

Mexico has nothing to do with Aztlan. As Chicanos, the US is our responsibility, not Mexico. Contemporary Aztlan is an American concept since Chicanos are Americans.

But, to answer your question as to why Mexico can't make those changes:

Some key factors are the caste system and US economic interests that keep the European elite in control of Mexico. The Mexican Elite and US companies are like big fat ticks sucking the life blood out Mexico’s resources and they are not about to let go.

There is hope for Mexico if the favorite candidate for president, Lopez-Obrador, wins the next election. Lopez-Obrador faces some major obstacles, one is that he is a Socialist and the US gov't has already made it clear that they do not support him. The Mexican Elite and US companies also oppose him.

Only a revolution can change Mexico. It doesn't have to be a violent revolution. It can happen just by getting the right people in control of the political, economic and social machines.

Aztlan has nothing to do with mexico? All the maps I see place mexico in the very heart of this movement. And about this reference to a revolt in mexico, more specificaly regarding one that doesn't have to be violent; Why are there some factions within the Aztlan movement calling for the violent overthrow of America, but you don't hear so much about the same statements aimed at mexico? Also, why are proponents of this movement not rebuking those who advocate for the violence?

AyatollahGondola wrote:

Aztlan has nothing to do with mexico? All the maps I see place mexico in the very heart of this movement.

And about this reference to a revolt in mexico, more specificaly regarding one that doesn't have to be violent; Why are there some factions within the Aztlan movement calling for the violent overthrow of America, but you don't hear so much about the same statements aimed at mexico? Also, why are proponents of this movement not rebuking those who advocate for the violence?

=======

Many of us that started the Chicano Movement have gone on public record stating that "La Voz de Aztlan" is not affiliated with the Chicano Movement, nor the Aztlan movement.

The contemporary concept of Aztlan as an attitude was introduced by Alurista, a Chicano Poet/Activist, in the mid 60s. The term was used by Pachucos in the 50s as a place name for the lands ceded to the US in 1846 and it carried into the Chicano Movement.

The reason you don't hear Chicanos advocating for a revolt in Mexico, is because Chicanos are Americans and Mexico is a foreign country to us.

There are those that are so fed up with things that they feel that violence will solve their problems, but they are misguided. Fortunately, they are a minute number of people.