http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=206767



On June 11th we will be representing the White Nationalist Community in protesting Home Depot's anti-White/anti-American hiring policies and its alliance with the anti-White/anti-American National Council of La Raza.

Here are the details;

Time 9am-12pm

Saturday the June 11th Corner of Bear Valley Road & Locust.

Northbound I-15 get off on Bear valley Rd ( Turn Right and be sure to be in right lane on off ramp ) Turning right will turn into Bear valley Rd, you will go three lights, third light is location of Home Depot. Corner of HD is an Arby’s restaurant, Bakers restaurant and a Smart and Final.

Please rp we would appreciate it if you could find some more details, like the Zip Code and the city or the exact address. Please give us other leads if you can, so we can look for additional details. Some of us will take the bus, and we need more information to go there. Thanks a bunch.

In solidarity,

Latinos Unidos

Its the same protest. The racist group Stromfront have teamed up with SaveOurState. Go to their link and read about it. (link in article)

-----------------------------------Quoted from SOS Site---------------------------

We believe the public must be informed and educated about Home Depot's support for illegal immigration. Home Depot must be punished for these anti-American policies and affiliations!



WHERE:

Home Depot

500 S. Marengo

Alhambra, CA 91803

WHEN:

Saturday, June 18th

9AM - 12PM

Parking is available on side streets all around the store. Alhambra PD has been notified. I asked that any counterdemonstration be kept across the street from the store as we want to assemble directly in front on the sidewalk where the employers make their pick-ups of illegal laborers.

--------------------------------------- End Quote from SOS Site------------------------------------

A quick google search for "bear valley rd, ca" came up with Victorville. Confirmed that there is a Home Depot in Victorville on Bear Valley Rd.

the address for the Home Depot is:

"Victorville" Store #665

15150 Bear Valley Rd

Victorville, CA 92392

(760)955-2999

Where is the Saturday, June 11 Protest, Which City

THE JUNE 11TH PROTEST IS IN VICTORVILLE, CA

ONCE AGAIN, 1Planet Cannot help but LIE his ass off.

NO ONE, I mean NO ONE from Stormfront apprpoached us about "teaming up" and we informed them in the past that we were not interested in promoting White Nationalism. They have their own cause and reasons for wanting to attend and piggy back on our rallies but we DO NOT invite them or support their cause.

Your a fucking lying menace. Is this ALL you have? Can you do NOTHING but distort and lie about what SoS represents?? This proves you have no valid stance against us - NONE.

If you have a problem with the Stormfronters go approach them independently. We don't endorse them - they are separate group. It just so happens they hate leftist scum like you but that should come as no surprise to anyone.

Go to their website, they are all bitching about SOS banning them.

That doesn’t make any sense. You ban them from posting on your site, but yet you still allow them to participate in your rallies and pass out White Nationalist fliers.

From what I've been reading, the SOS / Minutemen / Whatever they're calling themselves this time around don't "ban" white supremists, Nazis and the like. Maybe they weakly _try_ to, yet from what I read, it looks like the bad guys are trying to get their members, followers and what not to remove all racist symbols and to stop overtly handing out literature that identifies them. That';s in keeping with the claims I've read about them trying to scrub the embarrassing truith from their web site's forums, and the endless disclaimers I see them write about their supporters.

I get the impression that the effort is to try to hide the fact of membership in the various groups, _not_ to ban said membership.

I also get the impression that if one tracks them all down and "bans" anyone with such known ties, the SOS / Minutemen / Whatever would find few -- if any -- remaining followers. Maybe not but that's the impression I get from their writings and actions.

My opinions and impressions only, of course, after reading all the relevant texts, many of which are from the white supremists themselves.

The fact that Nazis and other white supremists are _not_ aligning themselves with the good guys speaks volumes.

Let me be very clear about this. I claim you are (SOS Leaders) racists. I claim your group is racist in its very nature. I claim that your website, your goals, and your actions are racist. I want to clarify so I am not using the word racist in the same way that everyone labels their enemies as terrorists. I haven’t done this before, and I want to be clear, so I will do it now, here. First a definition. There are two types of racism, there is covert racism, and there is overt racism. Overt racism is easy to spot, it is in your face, no holds barred, racism. Stormfront and the Klu Klux Klan are organizations that are overtly racist. I do not think SOS or the Minutemen are Overt racists, they are covert racists. Covert racism is racism hidden behind another name/objective/justification. For example, if an African American applies for a mortgage in a white neighborhood, they get a higher interest rate than a white person. The reasons that the banks do this is because if a black families move into a neighborhood, property values will decrease. The white next door neighbors know this, and in many cases, they try to sell their homes before the property value drops. Since when several houses in a neighborhood goes on the market at once, it drops property value, then it is often the case that when a person of color moves into a neighborhood, white flight happens, and property value drops. This self-fulfilled prophecy gives the banks justification to give higher interest rates to black people moving to white neighborhood. See, the racism is hidden behind historical data, mathematical calculations, and risk assessments. It is racist, but in a covert way. No here are reasons that I think you are racist:

1. You call areas that are primarily Hispanic, “Cease Pools”. You do this on your website (not your forums). These are areas that are not necessarily areas of illegal immigration. There is no methods or clarifications on your website, only that any area in California that has Mexicans (Mexifornia) is a sewer pool. (http://www.saveourstate.org/gallery.html). This is not even covertly racist, this is overt racism. I am sorry if you can not see this, the example speaks for itself.

2. You claim that you are attacking illegal immigration, but your words say something differently. You are attacking groups like MECHa. This group was more radical in the 1960s (remember the civil rights groups: black power, feminist power, brown power). These groups were formed because white males had a monopoly on positions of power. Cops were white (mainly male), business owners were white (mainly male), political leaders where white (mainly male), television shows, news programs, professors, school teachers, high paid jobs, all with white (mainly male) people. People who were not white males were feed up with it, and needed to start promoting their only groups. MECHa was an organization that helped people from Latin America, and still exists today. Today it helps people from their community get to school, it helps establish equal opportunities, it helps up lift the Latin American community and is extremely important to their populations. Your group has declared war on them, and are only quoting things they said fifty years ago. Your attack on this civil rights group which has evolved into a positive organization is an attack on people that they represent. Now do you know this? I am not sure, but it is covertly racist if you don’t, and overtly racist if you do.

3. The monument you are attacking is more like a history book than anything else. This community has gone through social struggle for generations. The picture on the Garden Grove flyer was from a lynch mob hanging in the late 1800s. It was done by a group of anti-immigration people who took their anger out on two Mexican Immigrants. There has been social struggle on both sides, and this struggle has to be remembered in order for history to not repeat itself. Tearing down the history of struggle is a direct attack on the people in that struggle and is racist in its nature.

4. Unintended consequences. SOS is legitimizing the arguments to other racist people (both convert and overt). You are having trouble keeping overt racists off your site, because you are helping their arguments and causes. They want to support you, because you are being used to recruit more racists for them. There is also the individual racists all over the country who are seeing this on the news, and saying, “I knew I wasn’t the only one who hates Mexicans.” To give you charity in this argument, I will assume that you do not intend to do this, but you still are. You are the best thing to happen to the White Supremacy groups since the freeing of the slaves.

5. Your attack on the new mayor of Los Angeles is racist. He is a legal citizen, voted into power by other legal citizens. Your alliances with the racists Hal, and his type of people, and your statements against the mayor are not associated with immigration, they are blatant attacks on legal Hispanic communities. These are overtly racist if you say it is because non-whites should not be in power, and covertly racist if it is because he is a member of MECHa. Now I know you have a problem with some of his policies, and that is fine, attack the policies. But your attacks on “Latino Power” is an attack on Latinos.

Now you claim that because you have found non-white people to join your group, that you now have a-priori evidence that you are not racist. That simply doesn’t hold. Throughout history there have been racists who are hateful towards their own group. In Africa, you had African people selling Africans to white slave traders. You can not say that African slavery was not racist because there were Africans that were involved. Here, during slavery, certain Africans would get into nice jobs, usually in the house, and would often carry out things like lynching to their fellow Africans. You can’t say that slavery is not racist because Africans were doing it. Affirmative Action has helped open equal opportunity to hundreds of thousands of people. C. Rice has spoken out against AA and many other anti-racism policies. She is a covert racist who is racist against African Americans.

Now whether you like it or not, you are leading the way to the new race war, where white supremacists are attacking and killing Hispanics. Whether you like it or not, these groups now publicly endorse your group, and are attending your rallies to try to recruit, and promote their ideas. Whether you know it or not, there are several members of SOS who are also members of Stromfront (Acidrain to name one). If you are truly not a racist, you are a ignorant individual in a cease pool of hate. My guess is that you are a covert or overt racist that is hiding behind the issues of immigration to intimidate and attack people of color.

I do not really wish to dialog with you, but clarification is necessary with the claims you have laid against me. You may not have any ‘official ties’ to these racists, but you are very much in a partnership with them. The hate you spew is unacceptable, and in the People’s Republic of California, it is simply unwelcome. Take a look at the unintended consequences of your actions, if there is a God in this world, you will have to answer to him for your sins, so you might as well think about what you are going to say now.

It is these people's rights we fight for:

http://www.aztlan.net/murder_mexican_immigrants_rise.htm

Nailed 'em good!

Thanks for being there, 1P1P!

la vox de aztlan!!!!

LOL !!!!!!!

ahhhaaahhhaaHHAAAAAAA!

i met that arsehole e.centrifugos back in the 90's

he was even more full of shit then too( if thats possible)

this stupid guy had some yaquis scared of him!(typical for them)

i said "what !?? this asshole has some scum rag he prints out of his bathroom??!!

and for that I am not supposed to speak about my INDIGENOUS HISTORY??!!!

fuck him!!!"

then i laughed and laughed..

boy, its good to know this clown is still scribbliing his trash somewhere,

what with all this serious stuff going on in the world, its nice to have clowns like that still willing to entertain the public....

I think YOU GUYS are having trouble keeping the racists at bay and keeping them from participating on YOUR SIDE of these protest rallies. Remember this guy? You've ignored him at other spots on this Indymedia site. This is the guy that chanted "viva al-Zarqawi, the Gringo Killer" Gee, that's not racist as it's directed at whites. Only whites are racist, right? So when a member of any other ethnic group makes such remarks, they're just "fighting the system" or better yet, they are fighting racists with racism! Good one!

Check it out for yourself at:

http://www.teamamericapac.org/ta-gg-050523-baldwinpark.shtml

Fred and 1People, feel free to ignore this post as well. Why worry about the truth. Ignorance is bliss, right?

P.S. The cesspool is a situation when the middle class flee California for other states (mainly Oregon, Arizona, Colorado) as conditions worsen, and their numbers are replaced by recently arrived illegal immigrants, whom do not contribute taxes to support the government services, use a lot of services themselves, and don't learn English. The result, particularly because of the increasing numbers of people at the same time the tax base gets smaller is a gradual decline in many neighborhoods. Is it becoming a cess poll? Yes. But this argument is about economics and taxes, not the racial/ethnic makeup of the communities. Again, you're full of lies.

mumble: "whom do not contribute taxes to support the government services, "

..they pay sales taxes...so that makes you full of shit.

Besides, I thought you wingnuts were anti-tax...

...for republican, pricipals are to be discarded as expediency dictates...

..now, I have demonstrated why you are full of shit...can you, without spewing spittle, say what was it the 1P1P said that made her full of shit?

"mumble: "whom do not contribute taxes to support the government services, "

..they pay sales taxes...so that makes you full of shit. "

What sales tax they pay is negligible compared to income tax...so that make syou a fucking idiot.

"They Spread Like Roaches!"

Adolf Hilter, regarding the Jews, 1938

You kick an entire race of people around for 500 years and you are surprised that one of them are going to get mad at the 'ruling race/class'. So you identified one person; you never addressed my points. I didn't attack individuals; I attacked the very principles of what your group is doing. I am not going to continue a debate; I just wanted to make it clear why I oppose your group. If you can show me how my points are unfounded, well, I may just go away. If not, well, you will know why I am there.

I will not 'ignore' you; I just choose not to participate in the troll wars. There is a difference.

"You kick an entire race of people around for 500 years and you are surprised that one of them are going to get mad at the 'ruling race/class'."

Who is this 500 year old "you" you speak of and what mythical group are you referring to that has been "kicked around" for 500 years?

You, my friend are clearly delusional. Much like that toothless bag of shit pictured above.

Here is your response...

http://www.cwsworkshop.org/pdfs/LoL/3_Indigenous_Alliance.PDF

If they have a fake SS card, they pay income tax too.

YOU OPEN-BORDERS FOLK CAN READ, RIGHT? THEN TAKE A LOOK AT THE BELOW. OR INGORE THE TRUTH, LIKE YOU ALWAYS DO.

The Costs of Illegal Immigration Illegals Cost Feds $10 Billion a Year; Amnesty Would Nearly Triple Cost



Center for Immigration Studies, August 25, 2004



URL: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html

A new study from the Center for Immigration Studies is one of the first to estimate the impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. Among the largest federal costs: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion). The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Let me get this straight. You want to write a manifesto on why Save Our State is racist and then you conclude your diatribe by ending with a link to Aztlan.net?

That is one of the most racist, homophobic and anti-semitic sites out there.

You are a peach.

At least Save Our State does everything in its power to limit the participation of white supremacists on its board and deletes links to Stormfront, etc. You actually propagate racism.

Another "do as I say, not as I do" progressive...

"IF" they have a fake SS card and "IF" they actually make enough money to even pay taxes.

DA DANCING SHITPILE WHO CAN'T COUNT: "What sales tax they pay is negligible compared to income tax"

The sales tax that most anyone pays is negligible compared to income tax...

...but that is not what the idiot said, the idiot said they "do not contribute taxes to support the government services, "



Since they do pay sales tax, this makes this statement WRONG...even Fecal Astair can't dance around that fact.

So, I am glad to see you volunteer to step up onto the idiot podium with mumbles there, shitpile!

The Center for Immigration Studies is and anti-immigrant group...not anti-ILLEGAL immigration...simply anti-immigration.

From their mission statement - "The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted."

Next you'll be pluckin' shit from Stormfront.

" Since they do pay sales tax, this makes this statement WRONG"

Big fucking deal. They're still a drain no matter how many hairs you split and you're still an idiot.

...if they are such a 'drain', why do you need to exaggerate the impact...are you worried that you don't have a factual leg to stand on?

What portion of the tax base is 'drained' by illegal immigrants? Do you even KNOW?

> I think YOU GUYS are having trouble

> keeping the raci at bay

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=206767

And, of course, Hal Netkin.

You were saying, rightard?

Right. You lose. Again.

Love it! Tip a glance at this rightard's amusing notions:

> Center for Immigration Studies

How's _that_ for a stellar source of totally non-racist, non-hate-motivated right-non-wing-extremist spew, huh? Damn, next this rightard will be quoting FOX "News!"

Hello? Hello? Anobody home in that rightard brain, pal? Hello?

A clue for the Bush Republican: Try a citation for a _legitimate_ research facility that actually does _real_ research and publishes its raw data and methodology.

Oh. That's right. You can't. You can't because you're full of shit like all the other Bush Republicans who support and defend their mass murdering Fuhrer's invasion of Iraq.

Carry on in your never ending willful stupidity and ignorance, rightard. It seems certain you'll never come up with a legitimate study with falsifiable data to support your racist, hate filled notions.

For now, get cracking trying to explain this:

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=206767

as well as

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13

Hello? Whardja go? Hello? Is this thing on? Hello?

Disclaimer: I am not 100% supportive of American Economics and Political Thought. I am neither a Natural Law Theorist, nor an Adam Smithian (Though there are several ideas by both that I DO agree with). These two people laid the very foundation of conservative economic and political policy. I am posting this only to demonstrate to our right wing friends on here their absolute confusion in political thought. The first section is a direct quote from the declaration of independence, the second section is from a very reputable online encyclopedia, and the third is a secondary source that I read and spent several hours verifying before I decided to us it (with several calls to old philosophy professors who are experts in the field). I have posted links for rational interpretation and critical analysis. In these you will see a few things. One, that the actual philosophy we base our system on does not discriminate in the rights of people to have liberty (absence of external restrictions) based on nationality or citizenship, and two, that our economic system promotes the free immigration process that SOS and MMP is against. Now, it is still possible that they can be against immigration, but it is not possible to claim they are "on the right", because this is one area where they are taking an extreme leftist position. Now, I am a progressive minded person, and I understand that on this issue, I lean to the right. My strength is that I can admit this, and do. I do not believe in complete free trade (which is the free movement of labor, and unrestricted markets to hire at any wage), I do believe in an individuals natural right to move and seek a better life (legal or illegal as illegal is the unethical restriction on liberty by a government), but I support minimum wage, health coverage requirements, and safety standards. These 'conditions' I support are anti-free trade in nature, but I never claimed to support 'free-trade' as it is 'fair-trade' that I back. Before you respond, read this, study it, and try to do a 'rational' response. To just dismiss this as crazy, stupid, or not worth the time, is to dismiss our very nation in the same way as EVERYTHING our forefathers and government representatives have laid out is based on this, you toss it, you toss America.

As a side note, I would love to do all primary sources, but if you know philosophy, you would know that this would include about 400 pages here. I encourage you (if you want to understand this better) to go get the books, and read them. I have....

When you can't beat them, beat them with their own philosophy.... enjoy

---------------------------------

---Our Founding Document----

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

[...]

He [King George] has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

[...]

------------------------------------

Based on Natural Law by John Locke (The philosopher behind American Politics)

[Secondary Source]

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/

--------------------------

If God's purpose for me on earth is my survival and that of my species, and the means to that survival are my life, health, liberty and property -- then clearly I don't want anyone to violate my rights to these things. Equally, considering other people, who are my natural equals, I should conclude that I should not violate their rights to life, liberty, health and property. This is the law of nature. It is the Golden Rule, interpreted in terms of natural rights. Thus Locke writes: "The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges everyone: and reason which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions..." (II, 6) Locke tells us that the law of nature is revealed by reason. Locke makes the point about the law that it commands what is best for us. If it did not, he says, the law would vanish for it would not be obeyed. It is in this sense, I think, that Locke means that reason reveals the law. If you reflect on what is best for yourself and others, given the goal of survival and our natural equality, you will come to this conclusion.

Locke does not intend his account of the state of nature as a sort of utopia. Rather it serves as an analytical device that explains why it becomes necessary to introduce civil government and what the legitimate function of civil government is. Thus, as Locke conceives it, there are problems with life in the state of nature. The law of nature, like civil laws can be violated. There are no police, prosecutors or judges in the state of nature as these are all representatives of a government with full political power. The victims, then, must enforce the law of nature in the state of nature. In addition to our other rights in the state of nature, we have the rights to enforce the law and to judge on our own behalf. We may, Locke tells us, help one another. We may intervene in cases where our own interests are not directly under threat to help enforce the law of nature. Still, the person who is most likely to enforce the law under these circumstances is the person who has been wronged. The basic principle of justice is that the punishment should be proportionate to the crime. But when the victims are judging the seriousness of the crime, they are more likely to judge it of greater severity than might an impartial judge. As a result, there will be regular miscarriages of justice. This is perhaps the most important problem with the state of nature.

(From 1p1p: In the law of nature, Mexicans are our natural equals, and any actions to violate their rights can and should be stopped by others. Since their ability for health, and security is hindered in their lands, they have a right to leave it to find health and security. In attempt to stop their free exercise of this natural right can and should be stopped by those who have the power to).

-------------------------------------------------

This is all pretty easy stuff....

-------------------------------------------------

Adam Smith (The father to American Economic Policy)

[Secondary Source]

(http://www.friesian.com/smith.htm)

Consumption is the sole end and purpose of all production; and the interest of the producer ought to be attended to only so far as it may be necessary for promoting that of the consumer. The maxim is so perfectly self evident that it would be absurd to attempt to prove it. But in the mercantile system the interest of the consumer is almost constantly sacrificed to that of the producer; and it seems to consider production, and not consumption, as the ultimate end and object of all industry and commerce.

Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, 1776

-----

By analogy with Say's Law, one of the most important ideas in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations might be proposed as "Smith's Law": That the purpose of production is consumption [note]. While this might be so obvious as to seem self-evident, as Smith says himself above, there is nevertheless often a very different principle that occurs in political and economic discourse: That the purpose of production is to provide a livelihood for the producers. While this is certainly a positive externality of production, it becomes a disastrous principle when the value of production as a source of livelihood begins to be given precedence over the value of production for consumption. Such a dangerous and damaging principle to the progress of human wealth and happiness might be called the "principle of feudal tenure," even though it was an affliction of feudalism, as it is of capitalism, rather than anything original and essential to it.

[...]

Another hot public and political issue, not just in the United States but elsewhere, as in France, is immigration. Apart from a simple xenophobic dislike of foreigners, hostility of immigrants is often based on economic ideas that immigrants, like "cheap" foreign labor, drive down wages and take jobs away from natives. Again, however, workers qua workers are producers and labor costs are production costs. Driving down labor costs drives down production costs, which will benefit consumers, either by the reduction of prices in a competitive market or by an increase in profits which will attract competition that will also drive down prices.

One can object, of course, that lower wages mean that the quality of life will decline for workers, so that the supposed benefits for "consumers," who are also workers, will be erased. However, if prices decline along with wages, it is very possible that the net result would be no change. But the more important point is not to forget Say's Law: the value of wages depends on the value of money, which depends on the size of the economy, not on the intrinsic value of labor or on the good will of employers. The introduction of immigrants, all other things being equal, would reduce the quality of life, not because they drive down wages, but because they share the same total of previous production. "All other things being equal," however, is not what happens. With new immigrant labor, as long as productivity remains constant and wages fall to a market clearing level, production will increase in proportion to the new consumers. If productivity increases through capital formation, as it should, then production will simply increase per capita and immigration will have, if anything, only a positive effect on the growth of wealth.

All of this is so familiar from American history that there is almost no excuse for anyone not being aware of it. The peaks of American prosperity tend to correspond to peaks in immigration, while the troughs in prosperity also correspond to troughs in immigration. Thus, the greatest surge in immigration ever, between the turn of the Century and World War I, which must have burdened job formation to an unparalleled extent, was also an era of unparalleled prosperity and low unemployment. On the other hand, the Great Depression occurred in an era of low immigration, and a program of suppressing immigration further and expelling aliens (especially Mexicans) nevertheless had little effect on domestic unemployment. Exceptions to this pattern are the low immigration but prosperous decades of the Twenties and the Fifties, and the high immigration but economically sluggish Seventies. Higher immigration had started during the prosperous Sixties, and so someone might argue that the stagnation of the Seventies could have been due at least in part to immigration; but then prosperity returned in the Eighties without any significant or effective steps being taken against immigration.

The greatest benefit of immigration is to increase the size of the domestic free trade zone without all the uncertainties, disputes, recrimination, and misunderstandings that attend the issue of foreign free trade. This made a world superpower of a immigrant nation like the United States, as different policies on immigration and development keep immigrant nations of similar size, Canada and Australia, well back in the pack, great-power-wise. Australia almost "protected" itself into conquest by Japan.

The debate over immigration in the Nineties, however, still continues in a kind of vacuum of history and economics, although one may suspect that a kind of Know Nothing-ism in these areas has the same roots as the original Know Nothing Party--in xenophobia. Representative of this tangle, as it also involves issues of free trade and "cheap" foreign labor, it the relationship of the United States to Mexico.

For most of American history, there was simply nothing to stop Mexicans from coming into the United States to work. Much of this was agricultural and seasonal labor, under conditions marginally better, but not much, from conditions in Mexico, but some of it was also for industrial labor, as far away as Henry Ford's auto factory in Michigan. The proximity of Mexico made for a variety of purposes and experiences for Mexican immigrants. In Michigan, Mexicans clearly had to become "Americanized" to the same extent as Lithuanians, Jews, Italians, or anyone else coming into the country. They might persist for a time in their own community, speaking their own language, and observing their own traditions, but they also had to learn to deal with the other communities around them on the basis of a common language and certain common principles of behavior. Along the border with Mexico, however, or off sojourning in agricultural labor, accomodation to "Americanization" would be less necessary, both because one foot might still be retained in Mexico and because an exclusive sub-culture might exist without much interaction with others.

(Also Posted In Another String)

One of our people who is inside Save Our State is reporting an email went out to all members that the Victorville location is a scam.

They are really going to Laguna Beach. They want to upstage someone they call "staw hat man."

First of all, I don't log on to the stormfront website as I will not give racists the time of day. They can legally do whatever they want, like post the BP rally, but we don't let them spew their hatred at SOS. But we do let you losers spew your pro-brown, anti-white hatred and racism in the Dissenter's Forum at SOS.

So, the Gringo Killer and Go back to Europe remarks, caught on video, have been posted all over this indymedia site, and you Fred have not responded. You cover up your side's racism.

Come on Fred, publicly deny here that you live in a gated community in that ultra-white town of San Clemente. You haven't denied it, have you? Any response? Hello? Is this thing on? Hello?

The whole point about where someone lives is irrelevant, and does not pertain to any arguments at all. It does not even warrant a response.

1. I do not live in an African American community, does that mean I cannot be against racism against African Americans?

2. I do not live in the Middle East, does that mean I cannot be against the genocidal war we are waging there?

3. I do not live in a homosexual area of town, does that mean I cannot be against homophobia and hate crimes against gay people?

4. I do not live in Africa, does that mean I cannot fight for their rights to medical care and against the spread of AIDS.

When you launch a valid argument, you will get a valid response.

As far as the one person who is fed up with the ruling class, and yelled his anger out, I gave you that response. Of course the only thing you could do is attack the source without even touching the argument. Give a response to their argument, and you will show that you are intelligent enough to argue with. If not, go back to the third grade and get a clue. You do not know how to argue, only spew fallacies, which demonstrates your own lack of reasoning and understanding. There is no point even addressing people who lack these basic elementary skills.

" 2. I do not live in the Middle East, does that mean I cannot be against the genocidal war we are waging there?"

With all due respect, you will never be taken seriuosly while making inane staements like that.

Being against the war is understandable but calling it "genocidal" and describing it as being waged all across the Middle East is just plain ridiculous.

You make some ggod points at times but your constant hyperbole renders most of your posts just plain silly.

I call poisening the land for all time with U238, contaminated with U236 and their many daughter isotopes, genocidal.

"I call poisening the land for all time with U238, contaminated with U236 and their many daughter isotopes, genocidal."

Uh, you can call it whatever you want. It doesn't make it true.

First of all, we are not even fighting over the entire middle east.

Secondly, your theory of "poisening (sic) the land for all time" is nonsense.

Thirdly, nothing even remotely akin to true genocide has happened anywhere in the middle east due to American actions.

Now if you want to talk about arab on arab or muslim on muslim genocide in say the Sudan or Syria (does Hama ring any bells?) let's go.

But to call what we're doing genocide is the talk of a fool.

... no gates, or Caucasians here.

Therefore... so what?

I'm very in touch with competing in a global market. I did it today.

I'm very in touch with issues of undocumented workers and transnational corporations. (I have family who have competed with, and worked alongside undocumented workers.)

I still think SOS is full of it.

maybe there is hope with you and I agreeing....

I call it genocidal for the very reasons that are mentioned above. If you don't think it is true, I BEG you (I am being very serious here) to go talk to vets at the VA suffering from gulf war syndrome. It is very real, and very bad. Luckily for them, they get to go home. The Iraqis have to live in it. It has caused very serious problems for them. It is like they are living in a nuclear waste zone.

Read up on it. Here is a good link, you can also search under Depleted Uranium under just about any search engine and it will say the same. It really is a genocide (intentional or unintentional, we will never know)

http://www.cadu.org.uk/

This is a personal message to fresca only, and not intended for this string. Unfortunatly, this is the only way to deliver it. Also, my spell check is temporarily unavailable (sorry).

I want to say something that has been bugging me. I made some pretty serious accusations against you not to long ago, and you gave a good reply. I haven't looked at all your posts, but you are correct, I hadn't read everything you have written, and I accused you of being against everything we are for, and you said I was wrong. After the few searches I have done, you are right, you choose your own positions and are not afraid to be your own person, and that is a strength in a person. As we are opposed on several issues, you take positions that you feel are correct, and defend them. I am sorry for that invalid attack, and I commend you on your individuality. We may disagree on some issues, but the way we both are, I think we could potentially sit down and debate, and convert each of us to one side or another. That is what happens when individuals debate.... Anyway, I owe you a public apology for a public attack

I really appreciate that.

No apology was really neccessary but I appreciate it and return one as well if I've jumped the gun on you, as I'm sure I have.

You're probably right about being able to sit down and debate.

Two of my closest friends are people who like KPFK well enough, but find it a bit too conservative, they like to joke. We get into it all the time and its fun.

I think I gave a really good argument and am still waiting for a reply. I do not normally do the troll wars, but I am really curious in how you right wing mo fos will respond to an attack using your own philosophy against you. PLEASE do not let the 'American Philosophy' go un-noticed, as I really want to know how you will respond. If you are taking time to research, GREAT, but let us know!!!! We want to know what you have to say!!! This is a chance to 'dis-arm' our cause, and get people to stop protesting you. Explain why you want immigrants to stop coming, and why you think American Philosophy is on YOUR side. We really want to know; as many of us hold true that you are merely racist bastards!!!!

BTW, A lawyer who says my video will get his client off; tried to 'buy' my video off me today, after seeing parts, he said it would exonerate people from Garden Grove who were arrested. It tickled me pink to see his response when I said I do my work for free to help out our cause (He actually offered me money for it, which I turned down for the common cause). He saw my video, and was ecstatic to realize that I do my work for free to help the common good. To think we work together, it was GREAT!!! I wish EVERYONE could get video equipment; we would NEVER lose!! The lesson to learn, ‘GET A VIDEO CAMERA, IT IS EVERYONES DEFENSE!’

Honestly, haven't we been around this cairsel many times?

Basically , its the same standard answer over and over. Its just too many too quickly. Form a line, decide how many folks per year should come based on what the country can handle, and do it. No line bumping, no open border. All that come in get checked....no big sicknesses, not ax murdering scum.

Im sure there are other details, but that is the gist of it, and I have talked to hundreds of MMP/SOS/ALIPAC/ fill in the blank anti-illegal immigratrion pople and groups.

Time to move up from 1987. Free clients available.

That answer is too easy. Line up and we decide. That is very anti-American. America was founded on the idea of open borders. To say, put up a fence, and we will decide, is very leftist of you. Hey, the SOS group are 'commies' as they put it.

To whatever extent your theory that AMerica was founded on the idea of open borders is true or not is a bit irrelevant given the fact that, simply put, that was then and this is now.

"Welcoming" (and that's quite a euphamism for what most of the immigrants that came here recieved) immigrants at a time when the country was very small and growing was neccessary.

That simply doesn't hold up today.

Of course we still need and want immigrants but the idea of open borders is simply unworkable.

Imagine your house having "open borders" and throngs simply showing up and demanding that you feed them. How long, with even a heart of gold could you and your resources withstand this?

> Fred, You haven't explained why you live in an ultra-

> white San Clemente gated community

Damn, what _is_ this rightard ranting about now? Another rightard conspiracy kook rant? Is this where I hide out after shooting John FD. Kennedy from the Grassy Knol or something?

No, rightard, I don't live in any white ":gated community" or whatever your rightard notion is. My _websites_, ya frocking Republidiot, is administered via a San Clamenta office, stupid asshat, and even if I _did_ live in a white bread town, that _doesn't_ mean I should be a white supremist or don't have the right to oppose you clowns and everything you stand for.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=206767

Strange how you can't address the fact that you've got Nazis and other white supremists on your side applauding, supporting, and defending everything you stand for, huh?

Damn. Guess that's the Republidiot IQ once again in evidence, huh?

Most of the country is actually not very populated yet, and can still maintain growth (look at Iowa, Kansas, hell, even Northern California). Second, the philosophy we were founded on is based on freedom and liberty (Natural Rights of All Humans). This includes (and is foundational to) the liberty of people to move about. The idea was that people had a natural right to move about and that they wanted a government to recognize that right. To change that now, is to tear up the very foundation of our country. On a side note, Thomas Jefferson said that they could create a free and moral government, but all governments always move towards authoritarianism, and the people need to remove the government from time to time to restore justice. Maybe that time grows near.

On a different note, people often say that we have overpopulation in the city and therefore, we can't let people come here. There are a few problems with this. First, I have been to NYC, and I will tell you that a city can accept a LOT of people. Second, if this was a real problem, we would have to tell all people (including Americans) that they could not move to a certain area. The influx of Americans to Southern California is FAR GREATER than illegal aliens. The problem isn't Mexicans, it is Americans. All the arguments they give just don't hold up.

Health Care: Uninsured People are the problem (Millions of Legal Americans). See the GM stories to see where this is going.

Crime: This is a characteristic of economically disadvantaged people. Most the people in jails and prisons are very legal.

Taking Over: Do I even need to say how stupid and racist this sounds.

Apparently the unfortunate dear thinks I live in a white bread gated rich Republican neighborhood and as such that apparently means I don't have the right to oppose white supremists or something.

The way Republican brains work is no mystery; I've seen these clowns accuse me of being female, black, and gay because I advocate equality for everyone; they assume one has to be black before they advocate equality for blacks. Rightards also immediately assume I'm a Socialist because I oppse Bush's fascism and his war crime atrocities against humanity.

It's very telling. No progressive would ever assume such stupid nonsense. It's only Republidiots that exhibit such faulty "thinking," if I may use the term losely.

As for me, the first 19 years of my life were marked by endless hunger until I'd graduated from High School and acquired employment in data entry and was able to purchase food.

I wonder if these white bread Nazis, white supremists, "Save Our State," "Minutemen" clowns _ever_ went hungry a day in their lives. I doubt it: they seem to think hunger is the fault of the people who are hungry; that decimated Republican economies like the one under this fascist regime means nobody ever goes hungry, lives in poverty, ignorance, and abject misery.

Any way, it's very telling that this clown thinks I live in some gated white bread community and that doing so would mean I shouldn't oppose racists.

Because it proves you're such a hypocrite! You deliberately choose to live where there is no diversity to speak of. Diversity! Multiculturalism! Just as long as it's not in my white, gated community. And how come others respond to defend you so quickly, are they your bitches? All you can say is that it does not matter. I don't care that you didn't eat enough until you were 19. Maybe you were malnourished, which explains why your synapses are not connecting well to the present day.

THIS IS HOW THESE SOCIALISTS THINK - Ooops, I said "socialists" so Fred and 1People can ignore and go back to sleep, or take another hit of acid. I provided a link above to a very comprehensive study using sound methodology showing that illegals suck up many more times the amount of money from taxpayer supported social services than they can ever pay in taxes (yes, sales tax AND income tax). They don't earn enough to have much withheld in income tax, and sales tax - come on! How stupid do you think we are. It takes $8,000 to educate ONE child in our public schools. How on earth is an illegal earning minimum wage ever going to pay enough in taxes to cover one child, much less 2 or 3?

SO HERE'S WHAT THE LEFT DOES: Center for Immigration Studies - oh, they're "anti-illegal." Fox News! Fox News! Fox News! Whatever the argument is, just yell these buzzword that liberals salivate to like rats in a box, like "Fox News" or they're anti-illegal. Come on Freddy or 1People, read the report and debate it's merits. No, that's not the socialist way. We just shout slogans, like "Fox News," "No Person is Illegal," or whatever else come to mind. Now you too can read, right?

BTW - Fred, you're about the only person whom goes to teh stormfront website. I don't and won't give those racists the time of day. Neither will I give the meche racists on YOUR SIDE the time of day as well. So you keep posting links to racist websites, the SOS/Minutemen and I will post links to responsible journalism and academic studies like the one from Center for Immigration Studies.

The ruling class just loves to see infighting among the lower classes.

While they're raping and killing children for amusement.

While the masses choke in their own hate and piss.

Ta.

A think tank is basically a research company that's paid to find evidence and justification for a specific policy that the group paying for the research is undertaking.

They arose in the 1960s, and really got going in the 1980s, generally, to justify pro-business public policies. Partly, it's a response to the increasing importance of universities, that, since the late 1800s, have been doing social research that's been used to implement public policy. University research is supposed to help improve the world.

Because the world is not mostly millionaire businessmen (and few researchers are) research tends to support policies that benefit non-millionaires. It was only a matter of time before millionaires figured out how to buy their own research papers that supported public policies millionaires would like. The think tank business grew to tap into this lucrative market.

Basically, the business model is the same as one which college grads may remember: think tanks are like the smart kids who, for a few hundred dollars, will write term papers for the rich kids. It's called lying and cheating.

--------------------------------

The Center for Immigration Studies describes itself as “the nation’s only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States.” Founded in 1985 as a think tank to support the more activist work of the anti-immigrant Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), CIS is dedicated “to expand the base of public knowledge and understanding of the need for an immigration policy that gives first concern to the broad national interest. The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted.”

CIS describes itself as “independent” and “nonpartisan,” but its studies, reports, and media releases consistently support its restrictionist agenda and works closely on Capitol Hill with Republican Party immigration restrictionists. However, CIS has achieved credibility with the media and in think tank circles because of its lack of the kind of strident anti-immigrant rhetoric associated with many restrictionist groups, its willingness to invite pro-immigrant voices to its forums, and the scholarly format of its reports.

>

What the hell are you talking about? NOTHING IS MORE PRO-BUSINESS THAN OPEN BORDERS AND MASSIVE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. WHY ELSE WOULD BUSH BE FOR AMNESTIES AND NOT ENFORCING OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS? CIS studies immigration matters and yes, often find good reason for restrictionist policies - because there just happens to be so many good reason to restrict immigration and control our borders. Not rocket science, Johnny. Also, all think tanks are funded.

<>

Same comment as above. It's the Wall Street Republicans, whom term themselves "internationalists" or "free market" folk that support OPEN BORDERS and a system that exploits illegals since they work so much cheaper than Americans will. THIS REALLY SHOWS THAT YOU'RE JUST BLINDLY STATING WHATEVER SOUNDS GOOD TO YOU, AND YOU REALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. CIS would be making tons of money if it's studies showed illegal immigration in a good light, because of teh big business interests. THIS ALSO SHOWS THAT YOU AND THE OTHER INDYMEDIA IDIOTS ARE PLAYING INTO THE HANDS OF THESE OPEN-BORDERS BIG BUSINESS ELITES. Where do you think MALDEF and the ACLU get their money from? Try George Soros. Don't know who he is? Well, then you have your next research assignment.

...So Indymedia is full of liars...WELL WHY DON'T YOU STOP POSTING, THEN WE WILL HAVE ONE LESS. I agree that MMP and SOS Circle Jerkers ARE ALL LIARS, BECAUSE NOTHING BUT LIES WILL SUPPORT THEIR IMMORAL POSITION. The sooner they disolve back to thier trailerparks and mommy's basements, the better this board will be. CIS research is back-asswards AS THEY START WITH A PREMISE AND SET OUT TO PROVE IT, instead of objectively looking at the facts first. Facts that do not support thier position ARE ROUTINELY IGNORED....and racist rope pisser uppers like MMP and SOS ARE ONLY TOO HAPPY TO ACT AS WILLFULLY IGNORANT DUPE SO THEY CAN CONTINUE TO SPREAD THEIR LIES AND DISTORTIONS.

...gee, that's like scream therapy...I feel all cleansed now...

Mommy's basements? Trailerparks? Funny thing KFC, all the little children at Bardwin Park 1 were on your side, the open-borders, we love meche and will ignore their racism, go back to Europe side. And by the trailer park remark, surely you're are not making fun of those whom are of less economic means that those whom can purchase homes, are you? That would be mean and reveal you as a hypocrite whom claims to stand for economic justice, but really means to say "fuck the poor." Is there an alternative explanation for your apparrent disdain for those whom cannot afford stationary (non-mobile) housing? Boy, the contradictions. By the way, I don't live in a trailer park.

You just don't like CIS as they don't come up with the conclusions you want them to. Never mind debating the contents or methodology of their studies - you just don't like them and that's good enough. Why let logic get in the way of your reality?

I THINK I'LL KEEP RIGHT ON POSTING HERE. IT'S JUST TOO MUCH FUN. I'LL STOP THE DAY SOMEONE OFFERS ME A REASONABLE, FACT-BASED, NON-EMOTIONAL ARGUMENT SUPPORTING ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION THAT TOPS WHATEVER I CAN THINK OF. I WOULDN'T HOLD YOUR BREATH.

redneck: :"And by the trailer park remark, surely you're are not making fun of those whom are of less economic means "

...no, I'm making fun of you.

redneck: "I WOULDN'T HOLD YOUR BREATH."

...OK, WANNA HOLD MY DICK INSTEAD?

Now what's all this?

Someone else handing your ass to you in my stead?

I guess kpc'll bend over for just about anyone here.

A regular masochist.

shitpile "Someone else handing your ass to you in my stead? "



Actually, shitpile...offering to hold my dick.

...but my gate don't swing that way.

In your stead?

I thought all of the loonies were you in a different nick.

Oh well.

Last week they were in Fallbrook, with Gilcrest and Chase there. They are keeping the real locations secret to avoid us.

Someone else is posting with a different name.

Well, since they are using the internet to network, that means a lot of their supporters will also show up to the wrong location, meaning that there will be two small protests. You can't really do the covert stuf in the age of the internet, and remain effective. If the progressive minded people force them into hiding, then they grow weaker, and the people begin to win the war against racism (yes, I said racism, because even if you won't admit it to yourself, it is still a racist goal, by a racist organization, with a racist website..cease pool and all). So, go for it!

Gilcrest and Chase even showed.

Do you have any pictures? I know we all want to believe you, but I have been monitoring SOS's website, and have not seen posts to that effect (they are not very good at keeping their mouths shut there). For alls we know, you are Joe and are trying to get people not to show up. Before the GG protest, someone came on here and said it was canceled. Unfortunatly (like GG), calls have already gone out, so people are going to show. I there isn't a protest, they can hang out for a while....

The below is some hate mail sent to a true American hero, Mr. Gilchrist, Minuteman founder. Notice how this girl can't even write. [And we’re called racists when we point out that the public schools are a mess and recent immigrants cannot read or write at the level they should be at.] She's so dumb she thinks everything is like IM. Well, this dumbass will not be able to get a job if this is the best she can do.

Oh no - there are no racists over here at Indymedia!. We socialists stand for economic and racial harmony and justice. WHAT BULLSH*T! There's some massive racism underlying so many of you so-called "progressives" and ironically you're the first to call everyone else racists. Guess that makes you giant hypocrites as well. The below speaks for itself.

Come on 1Person-HalfABrain, Poncho, Freddy old-timer, KFC -- just ignore the painful truths and keep telling yourselves that your side is not racist.

----- Original Message -----

From: Daniela Ortiz

To: Century21Minuteman

Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 4:12 PM

Subject: Re: why dont u take ur white asses 2 a different place u bitches!

u really wanna know whos a disgrace 2 every1!?!? white people r! u guys think ur so good and better than any1else! guess wat u white people r good at! u guys r good at suckin diks and ur prostitudes tds! u guys r a disgrace to humanity and the rest of the world! this land belongs 2 us mexicans and u guys just wanna take over it! u guys r starting a war that u guys asked 4!



2:minueman/women/white bitches! from:a angel , me wish_bear_11!

Seems that our dear friend, Freddy Rice, is obsessed with Scientologists. Was there some cult-inspired child abuse in your past, Fred?

CHECK THESE OUT: Fredric Rice's most recent postings reflect an imagined viciousness - http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/fr2.htm

Freddy's Own Site: http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/Fredric_L_Rice_Sitemap.html

You are a nut, Fred. Sure the Scientologists are nuts, but so are you. Why are you so obsessed with them? Most people just laugh them off and go about their business. Not you. What gives?

...sounds like somebody's got a crush on Fred....

Rather pathetic! I offer you proof that you idiots are being manipulated by career radicals/agitators, and that’s all you can think of?

I’ll see you losers in Baldwin Hell 2. Bring all your freak show sidekicks with you, like the toothless Arab “gringo killer” and those angry lesbian femi-nazis. We have no interest in those silly suggestions that we have a community taco (get to know your radical neighbors) festival. I think poncho came up with that one. And be angry, very angry. It makes for great video to show middle-America, the people that vote - remember them? Oh, you don't know them. You just stay confined within your "community." Try ASSIMILATION if you want to achieve the political and economic progress you seek.

...are you flirting with me?

...sorry, sailor, but my gate don't swing that way...

...not that there is anything WRONG with it...

> Because it proves you're such a hypocrite! You

> deliberately choose to live where there is no diversity

> to speak of.

This racist still wants to pretend I live in San Clamenta and that if I did it means I can't oppose white supremists. Amazing.

This is the typical Republican IQ.

They got their asses kicked in Fallbrook, just as they got their white bread asses kicked in Baldwin Park and Garden Grove.

But we're talking people with IQs around 80 -- just like their Fuhrer George W. Bush -- so that's not surprising.

>

So I'm a racist? That's amazing. I'm proven time and time again that so many on your side are racist, and you simply ignore what you don't want to hear. But you do want to hear about Scientologists, cults and other wachos like yourself, huh?

Per the registry database, your Skeptic Tank website is registered as follows: Fredric L. Rice, The Skeptic Tank, 723 Calle Casita, San Clemente, CA 92673. That would put you squarely in San Clemente, in an ultra-white community, in a gated community, far away from the diversity you claim you so love. You've never denied the above, have you?

I, the so-called "racist", since I don't agree with your anti-white racism, live in a truly diverse neighborhood of Highland Park, just below Eagle Rock in East L.A. From my vantage point, I see first hand the negative effects of massive uncontrolled illegal immigration. From the vantage point of your house, you see the neighbor's mercedes and fences that keep the Latinos out (unless they're there to cut your lawn). You're such a lying hypocrite.

Well, I want to know why the Hispanic population is so willing to allow their people to be exploited by American big business? You all say that your countrymen come here for a better life and that is great, though is it worth one person’s life to make a dangerous journey and lose your life? No and that isn’t acceptable to anyone no matter your ethnic background and in the international arena. The other issue is why live in a constant fear of being deported? That isn’t a life, and it would seem to be a lot simpler to apply legally and become a citizen and then bring other family members here. The simple fact that coming here in the first place is in act of breaking the law, and then the possibility of expecting something isn’t right. There are others that say that well Americans wont do the jobs that Illegal immigrates wont, well how do we know? We don’t, and it is the fault of big business and their getting richer and keeping people in poverty for a buck and the need exploit another nations people.

Condoning such actions for another nations people is unacceptable in doing what they are doing by US law, and even in International law. What is rather hard for me is that many people that come here want freedoms of all sorts though if that is what they want, then why not try and do what so many of you claim that illegals want? The others issue is that the Mexican government needs to do more for its people than dumping them as if they are a stateless people, which they are not. Mexico is a rich country in natural resources, though the government is to corrupt and needs to give that wealth to the people, instead of forcing a prideful people to leave their homeland. I think the focus needs to be shifted to that of Mexico and the government, it their government and what they are forcing their people to do is wrong. Is it that hopeless to rise up and force change instead of allowing that forced change to force you to leave your homeland? No, I don’t think anyone believes that, so we need ask why isn’t the Mexican people willing to make that change?

Some also say that the Mexican people have a right under Human rights, which is a very twisted interpretation of what Human rights are and tying them with crossing a border of a sovereign nation is simple not acceptable period.

Please explain to me the question I ask because I not here to start some type of racial issue, which isn’t a solution and only deviates from the real questions and problems.

Well that is my two cents on the issue.

Acidrain

http://chatterlounge.trek-online.com

"it would seem to be a lot simpler to apply legally and become a citizen and then bring other family members here."

If it were that simple, they would be doing it. A Vietnames brother of mine has been trying to get his citizenship FOR TWO FUCKIN' YEARS!!! At one point, they even tried to deport him to Vietnam! He is a refugee who came here with his family in '73 (when he was 3). His father was a pilot in the ARVN. He has been here legally since then. A simple application error lead to deportation proceding and red tape stretching far into the future.

So before you proclaim something "simple" or "easy", try to learn a little bit about what you are talking about.

Let me ask you something, wouldn't YOU lay your life on the line just to give your children a better future?

What can I say; you guys are pissing off a lot of people INCLUDING racists. When your group does what it is doing, expect resistance from all sides. Many whites and Americans are against you, progressives are against you, Latino/Hispanic/Mexican civil rights groups are against you, and yes, even racists are against you. You are very unpopular. I don't (nor does anyone here) have a monopoly of the MM/SOS resistance. There are thousands of groups, and millions of people against you. For every one person that sees you on the news and decides to go to the next pro-mm/sos event, hundreds more come out to oppose it. The GG event was the largest resistance event I have seen since the beginning of the Iraqi war in Orange County. It was several times bigger than the anti-war protests. I would not want to be you...

...and jesus FUCKING christ, will you stop it with Mexico/Mexicans....illegal immigrants come from all over the world!

...FUCK! And you wonder why people think you guys are narrow minded racist when you can't even get this simple fact into your skulls!

"...and jesus FUCKING christ, will you stop it with Mexico/Mexicans....illegal immigrants come from all over the world!"

You are absolutely correct.

And as soon as they deal with the tens of millions of Mexican illegals they'll be sure and round up the 8 or 9 swedish kids who've managed to sneak in.

...spread a little racist bait and da dancing shitpile is bound to show up...



...actually....

Hardly bait, as everything out of your mouth is some nonsensical indictment of racism, facism or imperialis.

No, it's just another opportunity to school you.

The issue with Mexican illegals as opposed to other nationalities couldn't possibly be more obvious.

Even a diehard idiot apologist like yourself can do THIS math.

..even and admitted racist like you should see the pitfalls of labling immigration as a "Mexican" problem...or crime a "Black" problem....or terrorism an "iIslamist" problem...

...it narrows the scope of solution options and ends up missing the point entirely...

...but you already knew that...

...absolutely....

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SONY VAIO B100B08 60GB HD-- 512MB RAM-- XP---------------$250

SONY VAIO B100B08 60GB HD-- 512MB RAM-- XP---------------$400

SONY VAIO FS295VP 80GB HD-- 512MB RAM-- XP---------------$350

SONY VAIO FS215Z 100GB HD-- 512MB RAM-- XP---------------$350

SONY VAIO A417M 80GB HD-- 512MB RAM-- XP-----------------$450

SONY VAIO B1VP-- 40GB HD-- 512MB RAM-- XP PRO-------------$200

SONY VAIO T370P/L-- 60GB HD-- 512MB RAM-- XP PRO----------$400

SONY VAIO LAPTOP-- VGN-A117S---------------$400

phones

Nokia N91 220$

Nokia 6060 145$

Nokia 6111 132$

Nokia 6270 125$

Nokia 6270 115$

Nokia 6280 125$

Nokia N90 115$

Nokia N70 115$

Nokia Vertu 155$

Nokia 5140i 125$

Nokia 6230i 115$

Nokia 8800 105$

Nokia 6021 105$

Nokia 6030 115$

Nokia 6680 125$

Nokia 6681 120$

Nokia 6101 110$

Nokia 6822 110$

Nokia 7710 110$

Nokia 6170 145$

Nokia 6260 145$

Nokia 3510i 95$

Nokia 6630 120$

Nokia 9300 110$

Nokia 7260 120$

Nokia 7270 110$

Nokia 7280 120$

Nokia 6670 110$

Nokia 6020 120$

Nokia 3220 65$

Nokia N-GAGE QD 75$

Nokia 7610 120$

Nokia 9500 145$

Nokia 5140 85$

Nokia 6610i 120$

Nokia 7200 133$

Nokia 6230 145$

Nokia 6820 120$

Nokia 7600 105$

Nokia 6600 120$

Nokia 6800 105$

Nokia 6220 120$

Nokia 6620 120$

Nokia 7250i 65$

Nokia 8910i 120$

Nokia 6100 95$

SAMSUNG D600 155$

SAMSUNG P860 165$

SAMSUNG P850

sidekick 1 $110

sidekick 2 $100

Sony Ericsson K500i.....130 USD

Sony Ericsson P800......200 USD

Sony Ericsson P900......260 USD

Sony Ericsson P910i.....270 USD

Sony Ericsson T230......80 USD

Sony Ericsson T310......80 USD

Sony Ericsson T610......100 USD

Sony Ericsson Z1010.....180 USD

Sony Ericsson Z200......90 USD

Sony Ericsson Z600......130 USD

Sony Ericssson T630.....130 USD

Sony Ericsson S700i.....170 USD

Sony Ericsson S750i.....170 USD

9806LL/A) MP3 Player = USD$110

Motorola A388C......170 USD

Motorola A760.......250 USD

Motorola A768.......260 USD

Motorola A768i......200 USD

Motorola A780.......290 USD

Motorola C550.......90 USD

Motorola C650.......100 USD

Motorola E365.......100 USD

Motorola E398.......120 USD

Motorola E680.......240 USD

Motorola RAZR V3....270 USD

Motorola V220.......170 USD

Motorola V303.......100 USD

Motorola V400.......150 USD

Motorola V500.......150 USD

Motorola V501.......200 USD

Motorola V525.......150 USD

Motorola V600 (OEM) w/ Bluetooth Headset..260 USD

Motorola V600 OEM...180 USD

Motorola V690.....170 USD

Motorola V750.....180 USD

Motorola V80......200 USD

Motorola V80 with Bluetooth...260 USD

Motorola V872.....200 USD

Motorola V878....180 USD

Motorola V300....150 USD

Samsung D500...240 USD

Samsung E600...140 USD

Samsung E800...180 USD

Samsung P510...120 USD

Samsung SGH-D410.200 USD

Samsung SGH-D500..270 USD

Samsung SGH-E700..150 USD

Samsung SGH-E715..170 USD

Samsung SGH-P100..130 USD

Samsung SGH-P400..95 USD

Samsung SGH-P408..240 USD

Samsung SGH-P730..150 USD

Samsung SGH-S200..90 USD

Samsung SGH-S300..70 USD

Samsung SGH-S300M..100 USD

Samsung SGH-S500...100 USD

Samsung SGH-V200...110 USD

Samsung SGH-X400...100 USD

Samsung SGH-X430...100 USD

Samsung SGH-X600...100 USD

Samsung X450.......100 USD

ipods

Apple iPod from hp 40GB = USD$150 Apple iPod from HP 20GB = USD$120 Apple iPod U2 Special Edition 20GB = USD$130 HP Apple iPod / 40GB / Click Wheel / MP3 Player = USD$170 Apple iPod MP3 Player, 20gb = USD$115 Apple iPod Shuffle1GB MP3 Player = USD$85 Apple iPod for Windows - Digital player - 10GB Hard Drive = USD$130 Apple iPod 40GB 3rd Gen M9245LL/A A1040 = USD$140 Hewlett Packard Apple iPod from HP 20GB With Click Wheel = USD$95 Apple Ipod 20GB 4th Generation = USD$130 APPLE iPod mini Player 4G Light Blue Model M9802ZP/A = USD$93 Kingston Apple iPod from hp 40GB with Click Wheel = USD$140 iPod Mini 6GB = USD$145 iPod 60GB = USD$170 iPod Mini 4GB = USD$105 Apple iPod shuffle (512 MB - M9724LL/A) MP3 Player = USD$80 Apple iPod mini Green Second Gen. (4 GB - M9806LL/A) MP3 Player = USD$110

(ericsonlajastoreinc@yahoo.com)(+2348025623329)