Leftists love to call us "Nazis" in one breath and then label us as supporters of Israel and the zionist jew in the next. I ask you, how can I be a Nazi, an ideology notorious for anti-Semitism and bloody massacres of all things Jewish ... and still provide such grand support for the Nation of Israel?? I don't get it. I would think the two would be mutually exclusive. But somehow, in your indymedia leftist minds I am all these things and more. For instance, I am a fascist, because we all know that fascism and National Socialism are the exact same things. Right? And those are the same as capitalism and that is the same as apartheid and by God all that is evil is me.

But Stalinism isn't socialism. And Finland is an example of a great socialist state.

Indymedia leftists are utterly insane.

'How can I be a Nazi and a supporter of Israel?'

Maybe Adolph Eichmann was your mentor...

-In obedience to Himmler's directive I now concentrated on negotiations with the Jewish political officials in Budapest . . . Among them Dr. Rudolph Kastner, authorized representative of the Zionist Movement. This Dr. Kastner was a young man about my age, an ice-cold lawyer and a fanatical Zionist. He agreed to help keep the Jews from resisting deportation - and even keep order in the collection camps - if I could close my eyes and let a few hundred or a few thousand young Jews emigrate illegally to Palestine.-

http://www.geocities.com/aleph135/P2WC.HTML

Eichmann hated the Jewish enemy and was responsible for sending thousands of them to their deaths.

So, are you saying that I hate Jews?

When Israel and South Africa had a defacto but close military alliance during the 1970's and 1980's the South African Government still contained people who had been outright Nazi sympathizers during World War II. These fascists had no problem with being allied with Israel and the Zionists had no problem with being allied with them.

So Nazi sympathizers and Jews are really allies? Gee, that really makes no sense, what with six million dead jews at the hands of the Nazis. I'd have to guess that Meyor London is full of the brown stuff on this one..........

Your problem is that you are missing some of this, Mr. Troll. You are also missing a basic knowledge of what went on in the world prior to a few years ago. Many 9th graders could fill you in on Israel's friendly relationship with South Africa, based on the fact that both were racist settler states and birds of a feather tend to flock together. When the black majority took power in South Africa the country's allegience shifted to the Palestinians; Nelson Mandela publicly expressed his gratitude to Arafat for supporting the black struggle in South Africa.

What does any of that have to do with Nazi's supporting Israel? You fail to explain why you believe that Nazis within the South African government would support the Jewish state of Israel. It doesn't make sense that Nazis wanted to exterminate the entire world population of Jews in the 1940s, then in the 1970s wanted to help them build their own state. You have no facts, only conjecture. Somehow in your twisted brain you have linked the Nazis with Apartheid with Zionism and with Capitalism. That is a very bizzare chain, to say the least. At least you recognize that Apartheid and National Socialism are not good ideologies. That is a plus for you. But your problem is you fail to recognize that capitalism and the Jewish state of Israel the good guys. This is where you fall down miserably. Too bad for you.

I recently heard a great two-part interview with Barry Trachtenberg by Miche Levy. They discussed the history of nationalism in the late 19th century, the formation of different strains of Zionism, and Israel. It was instructive, and I'll dig up the URLs if anyone wants to listen to it.

Russia supported Zionism. They wanted the Jews to leave.

Chances are, given the opportunity, Germans would have supported it too, and the Nazis may have as well. The opportunity to eject Jewish people was appealing to many European nations.

Zionism started out as an socialist experiment, but lately, the socialism has receded, and it's become primarily nationalist. That's what they say in the interview. It seems to jibe with what others tell me -- when they talk about the early days of Israel, it bears no resemblence to what I have read in the news.

Any religious state is a bad idea. It's reactionary.

Recent world history has been marked by the separation of church and state. Then, following that, the demise of the single-ethnicity nation-state. These institutions create and support racism and religious bigotry, and ultimately, wars based around these ideologies.

Going forward, for the sake of humanity, we should try to continue to find regional and interpersonal co-existence. The two-state solution for Israel is no solution at all. It's a prelude to an invasion and conquest of the Palestinian areas, or of a civil war.

Likewise, the current ethnic and religious parties we're creating in Iraq will come to hurt us in the end (more than they are hurting us now). When you institutionalize religion and ethnicity, the only way to participate is to *become* one of these things. It's one thing to recognize difference. It's another to write them into law. And it's yet another thing to institutionalize them as political parties.

American history has followed a path of opening politics to more people. Then, of removing laws that discriminate against certain people, replacing them with laws which only vaguely deal with "equality".

Simultaneously, we've supported apartheid in South Africa (by "we" I mean the US government), separatism in Israel, ethnic cleansing in Indonesia, and ignored racist genocide around the world. This just reflects a fact about American policy: domestic policy is generally liberal (in the classic liberal sense) but not very socialist, and foreign policy is archly conservative.

I didn't ask why Nazis would support the deportation of Jews to Israel. It's obvious that they would.

I asked why you leftist think Nazis would prop up the present day state of Israel financially, militarily, and with words. It's not a matter of getting the Jews out of any country. They're already gone (for all practical purposes).

I want to know how, if you think me a Nazi, I could be a Nazi and support the state of Israel.

I think that's about as clear as as I can make this question. And the deafening silence of you leftists on this lays bare you allegation that present day rightwingers are Nazis.

I agree with you on this, more rational.

in WW2 a nazi was a particular german killing jews and waging war,etc.

today, NAZI cuts a larger swath.

Some leftists at another website called me a racist Nazi because I argued for reducing native social assistance, heh. figure that one!

Nazis don't really exist anymore.

What we're accusing some people of, possibly including you, Jack, is fascism. Not with a capital-F as in Italian Fasicsm, but the generic fascism which is a combination of captialism and nationalism, to the extent that an oligopoly is created, and government and business collaborate.

One characteristic of fascism is that the capitalists end up supporting not only the ethnic (or religious) nation but support the oppression and destruction of "others". This is happening, partially, in Israel. The capitalists (and neolibs) are aligned against the Palestinians, are invading their areas, and creating apartheid.

Look at similar situations in South Africa, Latin America, and Europe. The people who side with the Nazis, and even adopt Nazi-like imagery, usually side with the conservatives. They're siding with the nationalistic capitalists.

This doesn't mean that capitalism is inherently racist. (It's no more racist than Communism, which can become racist.) It's just an economic system.

What's happening is that the forces of nationalism increase. One effect is that one group, usually the Europeans, has dominance, and creates a racist situation. The capitalists align with this group, and increase the effects of nationalist racism.

Capitalists generally oppose the poor. More accurately, they create and maintain some level of unemployment, so that labor is cheap. The side effect is widespread poverty. Also, rapacious profit-taking tends to lower the overall wealth in society, and leads to poverty.

When the nationalists align themselves with the capitalists -- and nationalism comes out against the poorer minorities, and offers to grant specific capitalists preferences... you've got fascism.

It's pretty simple.

Haliburton + Bush economics + Arab and Muslim scapegoating = creeping fascism.

The difference between this incipient American fascism and the old German fascism is that American fascism might become multicultural and somewhat socially liberal. Early American fascism was multiculturally white -- it wasn't just the Anglos, but all "white" people, who were supporters of groups like the KKK. It's not that much of a stretch to incorporate all non-immigrant Christians into some kind of multicultural fascism. Particularly because different forms of fascism have existed for a while in Asia and Latin America.

plato said 'poets lie" but he himself was lying.

in one crazy but utterly telling little bit (pure comedy -- god humorless geeks are so much fun to tease) you manage to say what it is really all about -- that lefty "socialists' cannot really oppose the NWo -- they are on the same side only separated by a few years. it was atrip it had a funky beat and i could bug out to it. i give it a 95 out of a possible 100

There are many different positions.

Bill Clinton was globalization's best friend. He cut welfare, and opened trade, doing two things that Reagan and Bush could not.

Bush 2 is also globalization's best friend. He's using fear as a knife, and destroying the social fabric.

The future resistance comes from the indigenous, the pagans, the pre-moderns, and global villagers.

So now I'm a fascist? This is bizarre. Why not just call me what I am: a patriotic capitalist. Why do you have to attribute qualities to modern day patriotic capitalists that they do not possess? The Fascists and the Nazis killed thousands of their own people. American capitalists have never committed such attrocities on their own people. You leftists will predictably claim that we have committed attrocities on the rest of the world, but that hyperbole, much like your labeling us "fascists" and "nazis" is without merit.

And this:

"Capitalists generally oppose the poor. More accurately, they create and maintain some level of unemployment, so that labor is cheap. The side effect is widespread poverty. Also, rapacious profit-taking tends to lower the overall wealth in society, and leads to poverty."

America is the wealthiest nation in history, and the American people are the wealthiest people on the planet. There is no wide spread poverty in America. That claim is ridiculous and without merit. Look to the communist and socialist nations for widespread poverty.

And don't predictably try to claim that the USA is responsible for the world's widespread poverty either. There was global poverty long before the USA came into existence. We already provide more in foreign aid than most other countries combined, and we import goods and services at such a rate that our trade deficits are yawning gaps.

Jaggoff- "I want to know how, if you think me a Nazi, I could be a Nazi and support the state of Israel."

...yeah, and he doesn't wear jackboots,either!

...god, you couldn't be any fuckin' dumber...

...could you?

KPC would be first in line for the showers.

...as long as you get those hard to reach spots, sailor!

You mean, like you spleen, liver, gallbladder, and small intestine? We'll just make chapeaux , some galoshes and a nice belt out of those...

... and pop goes the fascist.

I'm an independent, middle of the road, mainstream American voter.

...gee, I am quaking in my shoes 'cause some pud-pounding Cheeto-eater wants to make me into soap...

Nah, you ain't good enough to wash my ass with.

A lampshade, maybe.

Jaggoff: "Nah, you ain't good enough to wash my ass with. "

...flirting AGAIN, sailor?

...and on duty, too...

...well, if you don't tell then I won't ask.

The Nazis did not kill "their own people". They killed Jews, Communists, gays, and Gypsies who resided within the borders of Germany, as defined by the previous administration. The nationalists define an "in group" and the "out groups" and then proceed with killing.

That's the character of extreme nationalism. Read up on the founding of Turkye and the ejection and killing of Armenians and Greeks. That was a leftist nationalist effort.

The common problem in these two situation is nationalism, not economics. They had two different economic (and social) visions... but it was nationalism that turned into murder.

Economics is a whole other problem.

Patriotic capitalism *is* closely aligned with fascism. It just is.

Globalization is anti-national capitalism. Nations are destroyed and replaced with capitalist-controlled regions. That's why fascists oppose globalization. Pat Buchanan opposes globalization, and he's probably our most popular fascist-like person.

In contrast, the anti-globalization movement is mostly anti-nationalist, and anti-capitalist. They want a globalization based around anti-capitalism (opposing capitalism).

There's a lot of poverty in America. Just go to 8th street and see the people living in tents on the sidewalk. Go check out a motel and see how many people live there.

You don't see that in Cuba, a poor country that tries to alleviate poverty. I'm not a Castro fan, but there's really no denying that Cuba is a well-educated country where people don't starve and can see a doctor when they get sick. They "export" doctors to Venezuela to get oil in return. Can't say the same about America. We have to import our doctors.

And don't even get into comparing about "freedom". I agree with most right-wingers that Cuba is unfree. It's a legit criticism.

Also, we don't spend that much on foreign aid. I think we're supposed to spend 0.7% of our GDP, and we never manage to do it. We must not have gotten to be the richest country by giving the money away.

"In his testament, drafted in a underground bunker just hours before his suicide in Berlin, Hitler returns again to this hatred of the Jewish people that had never left him. But in the same testament, he settles his score with the German people. He wants them to be sacked, destroyed, reduced to misery and shame for having failed him by denying him his glory. The former corporal become commander in chief of all his armies and convinced of his strategic and political genius was not prepared to recognize his own responsibility for the defeat of his Reich."

That's patently absurd. If Cuba was such a great country and treated it's citizens so well, they wouldn't be fleeing in rowboats for Miami.

Opinions like those are exactly why the left is so marginalized. Anyone who thinks the Cuban government gives a crap about it's citizenry, his opinions are not much worth considering.