Poverty is an important and emotional issue. Last year, the Census Bureau released its annual report on poverty in the United States declaring that there were nearly 35 million poor persons living in this country in 2002, a small increase from the preceding year. To understand poverty in America, it is important to look behind these numbers--to look at the actual living conditions of the individuals the government deems to be poor.

For most Americans, the word "poverty" suggests destitution: an inability to provide a family with nutritious food, clothing, and reasonable shelter. But only a small number of the 35 million persons classified as "poor" by the Census Bureau fit that description. While real material hardship certainly does occur, it is limited in scope and severity. Most of America's "poor" live in material conditions that would be judged as comfortable or well-off just a few generations ago. Today, the expenditures per person of the lowest-income one-fifth (or quintile) of households equal those of the median American household in the early 1970s, after adjusting for inflation.1

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.

The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.

Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier that the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II.

While the poor are generally well-nourished, some poor families do experience hunger, meaning a temporary discomfort due to food shortages. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), 13 percent of poor families and 2.6 percent of poor children experience hunger at some point during the year. In most cases, their hunger is short-term. Eighty-nine percent of the poor report their families have "enough" food to eat, while only 2 percent say they "often" do not have enough to eat.

Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family's essential needs. While this individual's life is not opulent, it is equally far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, liberal activists, and politicians.

Of course, the living conditions of the average poor American should not be taken as representing all the poor. There is actually a wide range in living conditions among the poor. For example, over a quarter of poor households have cell phones and telephone answering machines, but, at the other extreme, approximately one-tenth have no phone at all. While the majority of poor households do not experience significant material problems, roughly a third do experience at least one problem such as overcrowding, temporary hunger, or difficulty getting medical care.

The best news is that remaining poverty can readily be reduced further, particularly among children. There are two main reasons that American children are poor: Their parents don't work much, and fathers are absent from the home.

the word HOMELESS did not appear anywhere in the article...

Neither did WORKING POOR.

But "parents won't work" did...

So while the actual issues are glossed over and the victims are blamed for the results of corporate welfare, notice how no meaningful statistics are presented (like the number of poor families who have to work two or more jobs to just keep thier home at all - the working poor)

The number of poor families that can afford to *send thier kids to college*

What the average wage is for them, how the cost of living compares...

Nothing important is brought up, while we're distracted by cheap material possessions.

I repair TV's & VCR's *for* poor people, often for free just because they *can't* afford them at all otherwise. So services people like me provide for free are used to marginalize the poor by implying they buy such appliances new like the middle and upper classes do.

Often they find them in dumpsters or at the curb, bring them to me for free repair, THEN they have those 2 color TV's the article boasts about...

Often they still work, but people with more money then sense throw them away for minor problems like, lost the remote, knobs broken or lost, antenna connector busted, bad belts and idler tires, need cleaned, blown fuse, etc..

If you're poor, you shouldn't have a TV. Running a TV cost money. The electric bill goes up everytime you turn it on. That's money you could use for more important things.

Poor people shouldn't smoke cigarettes. Cigarettes are not a necessity in life. Quit throwing away good money on cigarettes. You don't have it to throw away.

Poor people shouldn't drink beer or liquor. You already have enough issues, don't compound them by throwing away what little you have on drinking.

Poor people don't need to have more kids. Kids don't deserve to be brought into a family that can't afford to take care of them. Think about someone other than yourself for once.

Being poor doesn't mean you have the right to be stupid with what little you do have. It means you live without a lot of things you don't need and you don't bitch about it. TV, smokes, alcohol, and other such things are not necessities. Get rid of them, then come back and tell me how you don't have enough to live on and I'll listen. But, don't tell me your poor while you're pregnant ass is watching TV on your couch smoking a cigarette and drinking a beer. The impact of what you're saying will suddenly diminish.

Yeah, like the Clinton or Bush administrations were gong to put out reports indicating that poverty was growing due to their policies and the deliberate plan by the wealthy classes to deindustrialize, deunionize, and privatize the United States. Or to abolish "welfare as we know it." Or to do away with low cost higher education. Or to keep wages down and military recruitment up by creating a larger reserve of unemployed people.

I don't remember the Census Bureau or anyone else asking me quesions like that . I wonder who they did ask? By the way, owning a home does not rule out poverty - especially if it is a shack in rural Alabama or the mountains of Kentucky or 60 year old bungalo in Watts or Compton. Neither does owning a television - or two televisions. Poverty is having to choose between eating and having a prescription filled.

"Poverty is having to choose between eating and having a prescription filled."

Typical radical leftist exacerbation tactics to say the least.

Health care is expensive, period.

And regardless of what the leftists believe, it is NOT you r God given right to have your medical covered by the taxpayers, cradle-to-grave. If you want that, emigrate to Canada.

Medical R&D costs BIG BUCKS. High tech medical equipment costs BIG BUCKS. Skilled professional medical training costs BIG BUCKS. Malpractice insurance costs BIG BUCKS. All of which, somebody has to PAY FOR.

Personally, if you can't afford to get quality medical treatment or adequate health insurance, I could not care less. Join the freaking crowd (the other 99% of the people in the world).

Do not equate poverty with not having sufficient health coverage. To do so is a falacious lie.

Poverty is when you have to choose between eating or paying the rent maybe, but not about getting your Paxil or Oxycotin prescriptions refilled.

BTW Meyer, yours are ready for pickup at Vons.

Counting the number of VCRs or how accessible a 99 cent Whopper is to a poor person isn't a good indicator of the nature of poverty.

The main problem facing poor people is not really income, which, while low, is enough to pay some kind of rent, and afford food and clothing. I think the main problems are their ability to weather catostrophic changes, and their ability to participate in the information economy (post-industrial society, knowledge work, whatever you might call it).

There is not a sufficient safety net to protect poor and middle income people from catastrophes, particularly health catastrophes. In most other industrialized nations, health care is socialized and available to everyone equally. In America, there are several different classes of health care based on how able you are to purchase it.

Doctor-based health care in the US is a product targeted toward upper-middle income individuals. For poor people, there are over-the-counter drugs and advice nurses. It's exceedingly unfair, and ultimately leads to poorer people dying younger. Medicine is in dire need of reform to better serve those who cannot pay their own way.

Access to education is also severely divided, particularly with regards to information technology. The internet is used by the poor, but, not as universally as by the middle class. Partly, this is due to the cost, but mostly, it's due to the lack of demand for information-based skills among the poor. Many poor people don't understand that the internet is useful and valuable, because they don't use it at work. Until the net is perceived as having some value, poor individuals are unlikely to save up to buy the computer necessary to use the internet. This is akin to a rural resident who burns wood not investing in a propane tank, because they don't realize that propane will save time, energy, and reduce pollution.

The per-person cost of universal internet in cities is probably around $500 per person to start (including a computer), and probably less than $100 a person per year. The infrastructure could subsidized, and then the service itself be resold by local vendors.

PS - Telling poor people what they should and should not do is patronizing. It's precisely this kind of thinking that allows rich people to get away with murder, embezzlement, and other crimes against society, while the poor get killed over trivial drug deal. This judgmental moralizing is against the spirit of democracy, and smacks of the Church.

Working 2 or 3 jobs just to get by...

I think this is an excellent debate that really gets to the crux of political movements, elections, and revolutions. At what point does someone consider himself poor in America?

I've heard many people (like John Edwards for instance) claim their humble origins AFTER pulling themselves up and finding success. But I've seldom heard someone label himself "poor" in the present tense, without searching for sympathy, and then adequately explaining why it was so.

As a middle class American that has travelled abroad exceedingly, I have seen enough to know that I'm exceptionally wealthy when compared to the stands of the average person in many second and third world nations. Talk about poor. Most people in those parts of the world thrive in squalor, and most Americans are completely oblivious to this. Aside from their Sally Struthers commercials, Americans are shielded from it, and many more simply do not care.

But the subject of what constitutes a condition poverty in America is becoming more and more skewed. Some people here seem to think you're poor if you have to work two jobs or if your can't afford to go to the doctor regularly. From my childhood, I seem to remember a definition of a middleclass American family being on that could afford to take a two week vacation every year.

I think poverty boils down to the essentials and whether or not one can obtain them all. Clean, bacteria free food. Adequate environmentally conditioned shelter. Clean potable water. Clothing. Etc. Pretty much everything else are luxury items. Most Americans are fortunate in that they can afford MANY luxury items. Some are not as fortunate.

It's when people begin to covet what others have that the nature of such things as poverty begin to become skewed.

"Well, the Jones family has full medical coverage...a brand new SUV...a big house...a plasma TV...a 4000 boogahertz computer...and we don't therefore we must be poor". Such nonesense is just that.

Sure, it would be nice if there was enough of everything for everyone, but to think this a reality is pure delusion. Such has never been and is not now. In America one can work for and earn anything he wants badly enough. This process is not so easy in other parts of the world. I consider myself very fortunate for having been born into the good life.

There's only so much of anything to go around, a rich person has by definition *more money than they need*. Anytime someone has too much money it's at the expense of people who don't.

Rich people MAKE poor people



> But I've seldom heard someone label himself "poor" in the present tense, without searching for sympathy, and then adequately explaining why it was so.

I'm poor, I never accept handouts and I choose to be so. I use the freedoom of poverty to spend my time doing what I want - much of which is helping the poor. To me spending my time as I choose and being truely happy from within is more important than having the newest gadget. People who seek money typically are looking to "buy" happyness - which is impossible. Often the drive to become rich causes these people to live a wretched life with no love or friends - they are known as greedy shallow plastic money grubers/gold diggers.

Poverty like anything else in life can either be a curse or a blessing, it all depends on YOU - how you handle problems, not by a lack of them.

Many people make a very serious mistake in life in assuming happyness is the absence of problems. Such an attitude is doomed to failure (they will never find happyness) because this externalizes the process of building happyness, causing the person to search for it in other things and people. True happyness comes from within, and is NOT effected by lifes ups & downs. Up's and downs are the very heart of where happyness comes from. If everyone got what they want happyness would wither & die as there would be nothing to strive for and no problems to overcome. Life is about growing. Once growth stops you are only dying. The only way to grow is to have challenges to overcome, otherwise you become so weak that any little thing becomes a source of unhappyness.

People often have a very shallow understanding of life and the process of living, this is due to many things like culture, exposure to happyness defeating instruments like TV and just general stupidity.

Ignorance it'self is the root cause of unhappyness. Unhappy people do evil things and fail to aquire knowledge. This becomes a downward spiral. The trolls on here are a classic example of this. You can see the misery between the lines of what they write. They try to cover it up by acting like they are laughing (and so they may be) but the time and energy they spend trying to tear other people down in order to raise themselves up is a dead giveaway. They do this both on a personal level and generally (racist). While we search for both answers and solutions born out of a deep desire to help other people and make the world a better place, they spend thier time avoiding problems and blaming others for them, (often the victims themselves) while failing to address the root sources of the problems as they see on a personal level that the root causes of other people's problems are thier salvation. So thier version of happyness is external and comes at the expense of others.

Also I don't consider the label "poor" to be bad as due to my values and religion it's better to be poor anyway.

Old Arab proverb ;

It's easyer for a camel to go through the eye of a needle -

than it is for a rich man to get into heaven.

Hex, apparently you have somewhat of an ambiguous circular definition of poverty. You said that poor people are made poor by rich people. And rich people are rich because they have more money than they need. So one could infer from that, that poor people have less money than they need. All of which I'd agree with.

But you never explain what the "needs" are. Then you say that you are poor.

Do you eat regular meals? Do you have clothes, shelter, running water? What needs of yours are not being met that define your impoverished status?

Just like you, many financially impoverished Americans choose to be so. I could only make an educated guess and say, roughly, half. I'd say that's a substantially fair and conservative guess too. So if their are 35 million poor people in America and half of them actively choose to be poor for one reason or another, that leaves (breaks out calculator) 17.5 million really poor people. What 's the population of America these days? Last time I heard I think it was like 450 million? Is that accurate? Okay, assuming it is then what are we looking at percentage-wise? (crunching numbers...) ....... 3.8%! That seems pretty low to me. 1 person out of every 25 people in America are really poor by American standards. I'd love to see how that percentage compares on a global scale....

"I'm poor, I never accept handouts and I choose to be so. I use the freedoom of poverty to spend my time doing what I want.... To me spending my time as I choose and being truely happy from within is more important than having the newest gadget. People who seek money typically are looking to "buy" happyness - which is impossible. Often the drive to become rich causes these people to live a wretched life with no love or friends - they are known as greedy shallow plastic money grubers/gold diggers."



Somepeople are working in the hopes that one day they can be similar to you: Retired and doing whatever they want.

The difference of course being that they don't want to be poor and in need. They work while they are young and able, pay off their homes and save up a nest-egg so that one day they can spend their days on the internet ranting about nothing or making perf boards or biking the country or whatever.

Hex, you're like the squirrel that refused to store up the nuts for the winter. One day you're gonna find your youth has gone and you're unable to do so. It will be too late for you. You'll starve and in your hunger pangs while gasping your last breath, you'll blame your damned misery on those other bastard squirrels that bogarted all the acorns...

When stuck within the framework of people who have a vested interest in keeping people poor one tends to go in circles - by design.

I reject most of the framework so my "answers" are largely meaningless to people stuck within.

Or as spock would say -

I would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference.

Since my definition of happyness falls outside of the markers you layed out and in fact comes strictly from within, in order to attempt to answer your questions in a way that's meaningful to you, I would have to compromise my own framework and therefore any answer I could give you would either not accurately reflect my true values on this matter or would be misleading in the context you percieve them in...

Apparenlty for once in his life hex anon w/ encryption is at a loss for words!

Glory be the day!!!!!!!



to short again.............................................................

I'm not retired, I'm way too young for retirement. I've *always* spent my time doing what I wanted - I've always lived this way. I have a saying I like -

Neccessity is the mother of invention

Happyness and ability to overcome problems are separate issues from income level. My future security lies in my knowledge - knowledge I've aquired BY spending my time doing what I wanted which is mostly research - even as a kid I was a "bookworm". One of the biggest thrills was finding a new library for example. Not reading everything, I'm very picky and selective about what I spend my time reading (mostly technical books) and not just a bookworm to be sure, as I've traveled extensively - on bicycle - over much of the country. It's important to be physically fit too...

If you knew anything about electronics you would know that perf-board is the most common form of assembly outside of fabricated PCB's and for custom built circuits quite acceptable. Only a troll bent on tearing other's down combined with ignorance of this fact would even keep bringing it up...

When your smart people need you everywhere

The only way my future would not be assured is if I suffered brain damage and lost my abilities & knowledge. But thanks for your warm heartfelt concern ;)

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playing mr. dictionary (shallow), spending his time trolling (non-productive) and trying to put other's down to raise himself up (futile) while searching for happyness from without.

Searched the web for happyness. Results 1 - 10 of about 39,100.

Searched the web for neccessity. Results 1 - 10 of about 36,300.

We've been down this road before - people spell it both ways...

When all else fails nit pick the spelling.

Jerry lawson of chesnee, NC is a good example of what I was saying about people who try to attain happyness by putting other people down. His blogs, his posts on LGF and here clearly show that.

His form of "happyness" is spewing hate towards other people he see's as easy targets, Muslims, Palestinians, Mexicans, the poor. Within a group of like-minded haters this disease festers and spreads as they feed on eachother's hateful dysfunctions.

Being the perfect stooges they are they blame just the people the global elite brainwash them into blaming - the very victims themselves. What better way to keep the focus off of the real source of the world's problems, no nothing constructive and find an outlet for thier internal state of hell. And outlet they found only SINCE 9-11 for Muslims as it's now the path of least resistance.

With information comes knowledge. Knowledge combined with experience builds wisdom. They reject the first step - absorbing information (timestamps reveal) and are only interested in presenting thier ignorant and perverted version of reality. They become locked in a pattern of ignoring truth choosing thier own unreal world where they are free to blame all thier problems - and by extension - all the world's problems on the very victims. It's easyer that way since it requires no change (or threat of change) which is frightening to people who think happyness is a lack of problems.

Being completely steeped in thier own world of illusion they cannot see outside the bubble (and don't want to) as evidenced by thier refusal to ever step outside themselves and see the world in other people's eyes.

They simply lack this ability.

The continual retreat into thier fantasy world even in the face of pictures showing otherwise is a solid sign of this dysfunction.

This is way they keep repeating the same lies over & over even when proven wrong by factual data. They not only don't want to know the truth - they don't want US to know either, wishing to drag us down into the pit of hate they've dug for themselves so that they can feel good about themselves as they equate any quality they don't have as bad and something to be destroyed.

The concepts of diversity and live and let live have no meaning to them because they owe thier very esteem to tearing down that which they don't have.



They kill what they fear

They fear what they don't understand

That lil' spelling hint sure did hit a nerve.

Settle down there tiger.

And it's fine to get upset with me, but why take it out on this Jerry character?



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"The concepts of diversity and live and let live have no meaning to them because they owe thier very esteem to tearing down that which they don't have. "

Au contraire. I live by that code. Up to the point where the other guy is living to kill me, as is the case with Islamists.

But you know that.

"We've been down this road before - people spell it both ways... "

Sure they do.

Some spell it correctly and some don't.

It's an "i" no matter what your search revealed.

who places so much emphasis on happyness (sic), not know how to spell it? And he professes tobe so smart!

The comment was indeed too short.

The comment was indeed too short.

The comment was indeed too short.

The comment was indeed too short.

The comment was indeed too short.

Peepl mispel werds all thah tiem so frum now on Ime gunnah spell my werds any dam wey I choooose toooo.



© 2000-2003 Los Angeles Independent Media Center. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by the Los Angeles Independent Media Center. Disclaimer | Privacy

"This is way they keep repeating the same lies over & over even when proven wrong by factual data."

Happyness is a word!

Happyness is a word!

Happyness is a word!

Happyness is a word!

Happyness is a word!

Happyness is a word!

citing game playing becomes "hit a nerve", interesting characterization...

And this "jerry" - one would almost think he didn't even exist by the minimalizing. Must be nice to be able to forget the nearly 2,000 posts on boards that show the IP I checked, with dozens leading *directly to jerry*.

All the "J" troll posts on the main IMC, with the exact same "J" on LGF posting the exact same troll trash (kill all Muslims and so on), then his blog URL's where all the "J"'s are signed at the bottom JERRY LAWSON.

Then those IP's I mentioned above trace to the same geographical area where JERRY LAWSON lives according to his blogs...

Then the IP that was presented ALSO tracing back to the same area.

5 parallel connections...

Then in those IP's we see YOU posting as various kobe handles, with ned lyle ALSO posting as various kobe handles... As shown by IP.

You can't sweep these skeletons under the rug, and I'm not one to forget.

Our attention spans aren't quite as short as you seem to think they are TROLL.

You can't even spell "happiness". And you expect us to take you seriously!

Surely you jest!

The comment was rejected because it was too long.

The comment was rejected because it was too long.

The comment was rejected because it was too long.

then rest assured I will be spelling any/everything wrong

and get over it

playing spelling games is for people with nothing better to do

nothing better to do - the reason why you're here

He's a real guy. No one is creative enough to make an online personna that ridiculous.

Hex, as far as spelling goes, you utilized a search engine to prove your point that "happyness" is a correct spelling.

But you have to use the right tool for the job. Do you solder with a cigarette lighter? Why not? Lighters and soldering irons both produce heat; so what's the difference?

The difference is: one is not designed to provide the utility of the other. You can't light cigarettes with a soldering iron, neither can you accurately solder with a lighter. You have to use the right tool for the job.

You should have used one of the many online references like www.dictionary.com. If you had, you would have found:

"No entry found for happyness.

Did you mean happiness?"

You didn't use the right tool for the job. All you proved with your search is that many other people (besides you) misspell "happiness".

That does not make them right. The prevalence of a mistaken notion does not make it correct.

700 years ago most everybody thought the world was flat. Did that make it so? By your reasoning, yes, it did.

I have no problem with spelling errors. I make them myself. You can tell when I click "Publish" before I've had a chance to proofread my posts; I type faster than my internal spellchecker works.

I do, however, have a problem with people trying to defend ridiculous notions by twisting reality to suit their premise.

And you do that with more than just spelling errors.

*** This comment was posted from an IP associated with a disruptive poster. The MD5 hash of their IP is dcbfebfbdce. This value is the same even if the user uses another name. Only posters deemed disruptive by the editorial collective will have this text appended to their posts. We apologize for any erroneous misidentifications.

I thought I was Jerry Lawson!

Make up your mind, Hex.

nonanarchist

This comment was rejected because it was too funny.

This comment was rejected because it was too funny.

This comment was rejected because it was too funny.

*** This comment was posted from an IP associated with a disruptive poster. The MD5 hash of their IP is dcbfebfbdce. This value is the same even if the user uses another name. Only posters deemed disruptive by the editorial collective will have this text appended to their posts. We apologize for any erroneous misidentifications.

Feel free to check out the spelling of anything you might be confused about.

Why not start with "happyness"?

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I said people spell it both ways, the words right or wrong were never typed by me, that's a black & white reality of your own making.

How many posts does this make now about - spelling ?

What happened to the article's subject of poverty ?

distraction anyone ?

We're so trying to make everyone forget about poverty in America by pointing out your poor literary skills.

You know, if you tried just a little harder, you could sound even sillier.

nonanarchist

This comment was rejected because it is too sarcastic.

This comment was rejected because it is too sarcastic.

This comment was rejected because it is too sarcastic.

*** This comment was posted from an IP associated with a disruptive poster. The MD5 hash of their IP is dcbfebfbdce. This value is the same even if the user uses another name. Only posters deemed disruptive by the editorial collective will have this text appended to their posts. We apologize for any erroneous misidentifications.

he paid far more attention to spelling, grammar, and punctuation.

Yes Dorothy, a monkey can indeed be trained.

extra words not needed.

extra words not needed.

extra words not needed.

extra words not needed.

Oh you'd like to think it was a distraction wouldn't you?

No chance trekkie.

Now let's get back to the spelling lesson.

There IS a black and white.

Some words may have multiple accepted spellings.

Happiness isn't one of them.

BTW, the idea that the rich cause poverty is inane.

That implies that the rich OWE a portion of their wealth to others who have done nothing to earn it.

The world does NOT owe us a living.

But, nevermind....your atrocious spelling (not typo's mind you) is the issue here.

I realize endless banter is where your "skills" really shine however you don't have the disruptive poster under your posts for no reason...

While the facts, data and values I've presented on poverty are ignored the lies are repeated. Not being able to discern the difference between opinion and fact is the hallmark of a troll, because in thier world there IS none.

Notice how the question of poverty degrades right back down to money. While I stated money has *nothing* to do with it. In fact my definition of poverty is completely different than yours. Poverty to me means lacking in *internal* qualities like a thirst for knowledge and experience as with those poverty is impossible...

But naturally all this is above your level of understanding so you focus insted on me/money - shallow attacks and worthless bits of green paper, which is all you understand.

Your replies prove my points...

And we see how well you grasp diversity and spell and let spell by your inability to accept that due to differences in culture/languages people do in fact spell things differently. The internet being global you're bound to see this, however you concentrate you time & energy on AMERICAN SPELLING ONLY because your world-wide travels have taught you so much about respecting different cultures, languages and people.

One has to wonder what you spent your time doing in those other countries - rotting on a military base perhaps ? Or it's just another out of the countless LIES you post to prop up your otherwise dismal world view.

It never seems to sink in that I post for the benefit of IMC PATRONS and NOT trolls. Even my exchanges with you are but learning tools to show other's how to deal with trolls.

The most importance you have on here is what you delude yourself into believing you have.

Delusions also being a hallmark of the troll mentality.

Surely the record is clear on this - looking back over older threads we see repeated attempts to keep the trolling going with you always getting in the last word (usually 3 or 4 times over) and yet the discussion stops when *I* choose, when I feel there's nothing further constructive to be gained from the *lession*.

How my cutting off your trolling ways became me jumping through hoops could only enjoy existence in the deluded mind of a fool. But then again to whatever extent you manage to get anyone here to buy into your shallow transparent attempts to control other people, you actually succeed. I could run off a few handles that have fallen for this game however it's not a constructive activity in the present context.

Since my definition of poverty clearly escapes you and you therefore insist on dealing only with your shallow version of it, it's a waste of time to engage you on this issue - an issue I suspect you planted here in the first place and are simply having sour grapes on the idea that such a shallow definition could be so thoughly trashed on all fronts.

Maybe you should think twice before posting more troll bait threads in the future - no ?

"you don't have the disruptive poster under your posts for no reason... "

Those of us who have it are those who refuse to tow the silly, deluded, lemming like line of leftist fascism and IMC groupthink.

There's no getting around this. There are certain beliefs that will immediately get one banded as a troll on IMC.

To suggest that Israel has a right to exist and defend itself against consistent acts of terrorism is one.

To suggest that America was attacked by ISLAMISTS (I still doubt that you even know what that term really means) and should defend herself AND eliminate as many future attacks by ELIMINATING the enemy is another.

To suggest that, while it is good and fair and righteous for a society to help those who have little, society does NOT bear the responsibility of keeping all of it's members fat and happy, is yet another. Society does NOT owe anyone a living. Furthermore, to suggest that being successful and even "rich" is not inherently evil and not always a product of greed and exploitation will alaso get you the MD5 hash.

Finally, to disagree with the conspiracy theory that the GOVERNMENT, especially the US government exists to ultimately oppress and kill us all will certainly brand you.

Face it. The "disruptive poster" tag is the same sort of tag given to every dissident of an oppresive regime since time immemorable.

You are on the absolute wrong side of the concept of free speech here.

And another thing. You waste some much of your time obsessing on trying to identify us that one wonders if you actually do ANY of the things you say. You are simply not even CLOSE to identifying any of us. Well, certainly not me. And I'm not even hiding. I've posted MANY details about my life on here. I don't use proxies or any of that shit, and the only reason I don't give out an email is because of asses like you. The last thing I want is some middleaged trekkie spamming me. Forget you audit fantasy, emails from you would be wayyyy more annoying.

You are a figure of fun.

You need to belive that those who see through you're silly cyber sleuth charade are somehow evil arch- rightwingers, filled with hate and racism.

It's nonsense. We're all just normal people who don't agree with your conspiracies.

The fact of the matter is that you simply hate. Alot.

Well that was my second laugh today. I actually choked a bit just now..

Your all encompassing perfect explaination failed to mention why you use the terms "sub-humans" and "animals" to refer to over a billion people you don't even know.

Why you are here insted of free republic where such views are accepted and why you hide all your personal data even from whoswhere [removed]

Then when a man of peace and love who has no room or energy for hate in his life defends the defenseless, helps the helpless and addresses lies and corruption with simply truth you actually have the gall to brand HIM a hater. Hell I don't even hate people like YOU much less "normal" people.

Normal - that's a good one, an extreme right-wing-nut who spews hate at every turn, spends all his free time trolling NEWSWIRES where he's not only unwanted but actually banned AND disclaimed as a troll, and continues to do nothing but lie, distract, disrupt and deny.

And yet he's a perfect pure as the driven snow angel here to "save" us from the terrible "liberals" who are to blame for all the world's problems even though they are almost always the victims.

This assumes of course that he's "smarter and better than we are" and knows what's best for us as we're not able to do our own research (that's "finding data to fit pre-conceived bias") our own thinking (we're the one's out of touch with reality so we need his "help") and reach our own conclusions (again we need his "help" to show us the way because only he has the golden key to the crapper of knowledge)

And this is diversity, this is live and let live - cramming YOUR version of reality down our throats OR ELSE you'll throw a tantrum and troll endlessly to "teach us a lession" for the good of IMC and us.

Does that about cover it ?

"Your all encompassing perfect explaination failed to mention why you use the terms "sub-humans" and "animals" to refer to over a billion people you don't even know. "

I don't. And I never have.

I assume you are trying to say that I've reffered to ALL Arabs and Muslims as this.

I haven't.

I've often reffered to ISLAMISTS and TERRORISTS and those that SUPPORT and DEFEND them as "subhuman" and "savage".

Much like you refer to those who see through your bullshit as "trolls".

Face it. You're beat. Do I hate ALL Arabs and Muslims? Absolutely not.

Do I hate those who happen to be Muslim and/or Arab and commit hatecrimes and atrocities in the name of their religion. Absolutely.

To refer to these PARTICULAR Muslims and/or Arabs as subhuman and savage is merely an observation. Much like the obvious observation that members of the KKK, Aryan Nation and any other hate group whether they are white, Jewish, Black or Brown are subhuman savages.

> I hate / absolutely

> Much like the / KKK, Aryan Nation and any other hate group

ok....but......you HAVE said "450 american lives are worth more than the entire arab world". that's not quite up there w/ "savages and subhuman" but....

hmm....

"450 american lives are worth more than the entire arab world". "

Some impassioned hyperbole, granted.

As much as I DO value the lives of American soldiers, I should have refrained from this comment, knowing how upset people get around here about patriotism.

My apologies.

> how upset people get around here about patriotism

"how upset people get around here about patriotism"

That's the one thing that drives IMCer's the most crazy.

Showing ANY sign of patriotism.

Just ask "kollektiv" leader, intrepid johnk. He'll be the first to tell you that patriotism is wayyyyyy uncool and fascist.

By the way Hex...how about that gentle "palestinian" SUBHUMAN who blew up at the checkpoint. What a great mother! HAMAS -They breed like rats and they're no better.

maybe fresca should just turn us all in then - oh I forgot, he can't - he has no idea who we are

nevermind

I did nt spend enough time to read actually all 50 comments . But I m really astonished to read that half of these comments attack "hex anon" on the issue of his spelling capacity. Plus, it s even more impressin to see how much time he has to waste to defend himself from such stupid attacks.

Everyone understoodthe word "happyness". Every body tend to misspell, I even very often write english words the french way, and when that happens, I say "conspiration" and people understand "conspiracy".

But normal people don t bother point it out. And remember the sayin ; "Dont feed the trolls" (I have to remember it too)

There's the difference between us "trolls" and the regulars here.

Trolls see America as a great nation, the literal land of opportunity, sought out by immigrants worldwide as a place to come and better their lot in life.

IMCers see America as a fascist hellhole, the Fourth Reich, a place where dissent is not allowed, where protestors are shot and taken to re-education camps.

Trolls may passionately disagree with what IMCers say, but will spend the rest of our lives fighting for their right to say it...to the death if necessary.

IMCers would not cross the street to help a troll.

Trolls see the danger to America and indeed the entire world posed by radical Islam.

IMCers see any statement exposing that danger as "racism" and "intolerance".

Trolls recognize and support the state of Israel and her right to self-defense.

IMCers will not be happy until the Hamas charter is fullfilled: One Arab state, from the River to the Sea...and if all the Jews happen to get murdered, that's okay.

Trolls support the American military, and see them as individuals with unique thought sand feelings, bound together by a vow to protect their country.

IMCers see brainwashed and programmed baby-eating killbots.



We're separated by such a vast gulf in our viewpoints. Neither side will change the minds of the other.

Why do us trolls visit and post here?

We're outraged about the lies you tell in here, and do not want to see you get a free pass with it. We're going to call you on them.

You cannot stop us. You will dismantle this site trying, though.

Say, Hex: I have said several times I will defend your right to say what you do with my life.

Will you defend mine? Or do you subscribe to the common IMC idea "Free speech for me but not for thee"?

nonanarchist

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700 years ago, they probably spelled "happiness" with a "y".

What happened to the poverty discussion?

There's one thing that I think is very true - there are different kinds of poverty. That might be the gist of my original rant. You can be rich in food, but poor in health care. You can be rich in television, but poor in internet. You can have a lot of money, but have an impoverished soul.

There are dollar values on everything, and those things most vital to existence seem to increase in price exponentially with the probability of death from lacking these things.

That brings us to "fear".

If there's one thing insurance companies and the Bush administration have in common, it's manipulating people with fear. Once people are scared, they'll spend money until they feel safe again, whether it's more life insurance, or more deficit spending on the occupation of Iraq, or more Homeland Security.

It's probably no coincidence that the people who clamor for war also fight against fear-reduction social policies like free health care, free welfare housing, and low cost internet. They're out to remove the safety net from under our tightrope; it's probably going to be used to ensnare some terrorists.

"fear-reduction social policies like ... low cost internet."

What the fuck are you talking about?

Do you simply think that EVERYTHING should be free and paid for by those who earn enough to carry your ass.

How did you ever become so incredibly lazy and entitled?

Your "fear-reduction social policies" are simply methods for lowering societies LCD down to a....forget it...you'll never understand.

> Everyone understood the word "happyness"



People really do spell it that way too - google it and see for yourself. The whole point of language is to *convey meaning* and nothing more, as long as the reader understands the meaning who cares how it's spelled - I switch between American english, "English" english and other languages at will. Happy-ness simply looks better than happ-in-ess. They tried to pull the same stunt with chemistry and several chemical names awhile back - and I pointed out exactly the same points then too. This continued tactic is nothing more than spin-cycling.



> IMCers see America as...

> IMCers would not...

> IMCers see...

> IMCers will not...

> IMCers see...

Here we go with the putting words in our mouths and thoughts in our minds game again. These rhetorical statements are designed to discredit what they can't attack with factual data - since they have none. Somehow our posting FACTS gets twisted into mere opinion/attitudes - which they attempt to frame to thier own choosing, while all they post ARE opinion/attitude and that tripe is elevated to fact.

But this rhetorical statement stands out;



> IMCers see brainwashed and programmed baby-eating killbots

WRONG - cameras see it.

Try as you might, there is only one way to spell happiness..."dictionary" it and you'll see.

Spelling mistakes are common and irrelevant.

Stubborn denial of a simple mistake speaks volumes.



By the way, I've always loved that pic. I'm sure you realize that it shows the IDF arresting a known Hamas leader and having the restraint not to use their weapons on him.



orleans north carolina north texas ny capital nyc oklahoma philadelphia pittsburgh portland richmond rochester rocky mountain rogue valley san diego san francisco bay area santa cruz, ca seattle st louis tallahassee-red hills tennessee urbana-champaign utah vermont western mass west asia: beirut israel palestine process: discussion fbi/legal updates indymedia faq mailing lists process & imc docs tech volunteer projects: oceania print radio satellite tv video

pretty sounding lies - like when you said it wasn't the IDF but other Palestinians who shot the kid next to his father...

denial at all costs

Funny too how every picture is either framed as "showing baby killers" as if showing the TRUTH was somehow bad when it's children or infants, OR any older victim becomes a "Hamas leader"

Speaking of "restraint" I suppose the Russians are showing "restraint" in not vaporizing israel too ?

God knows they can easyly - wanna see the data ?

If LCD means "lowest common denominator", fresca, you're mistaken. Widening access to services increases the LCD, standard of living, or whatever you want to call it.

A range of "free" things have improve societies. Here are some "free" things that have benefitted society. They aren't free, but paid for with taxes:

- roads

- schools

- libraries

- parks

There are also a few things that are semi-privatized:

- water

- electricity

- phones

- adult school

- public transit

I think the internet and health care can be added to this second list. The private systems are growing, and reaching some limits. By shifting the responsiblity to local publicly owned companies, the private companies can focus on innovation rather than increasingly elaborate marketing schemes to capture market share.

Then, there's the debacle of a regulated utility that has become increasingly privatized, and has people complaining more about it than they will about any other utility:

- cable tv

Also, another increasingly privatized service:

- broadcast television

"Here we go with the putting words in our mouths and thoughts in our minds game again. These rhetorical statements are designed to discredit what they can't attack with factual data - since they have none. Somehow our posting FACTS gets twisted into mere opinion/attitudes - which they attempt to frame to thier own choosing, while all they post ARE opinion/attitude and that tripe is elevated to fact."

Every idea I attributed to IMCers is directly observable here at la-imc. To think otherwise is simply wishful thinking. Are you really that oblivious, Hexie Boy? Sure looks like.

Yep, I knew it...you blend in perfectly with the "killbot seers", don't you? You've never even spoken face-to-face with a military member, have you? Of course not. It's so much easier when you don't even recognize they're human, isn't it? Heaven forbid you might have to adjust your worldview.

That's it, Hex. I class you officially as stupid. I was waiting to see if you had any redeeming values, but I sure haven't seen any. You've had numerous opportunities to denounce terrorism, but all you do is keep supporting the efforts of those who want to kill Jews. One can only conclude that you want Jews dead. If you weren't such a coward, you'd put on a Hamas headband and a Semtex vest yourself, wouldn't you?

But no, not Hexie Boy. He's saving the world by posting photographs on a little-used message board.

Ooooh.

nonanarchist

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oh the black & white web we spin

Thanks for confirming my conclusion.

You really DO hate Jews.

Oh, you try to disguise it as "anti-Zionism", but it's all too obvious.

I knew it all along.

nonanarchist

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I guess he can't see the pictures

good thing everyone else can..

Fuck these ignorant motherfuckin republican liars.

The are chickenhawks. thats all they are. They are not even smart.

I will be lookin for you jerry.

"Fuck these ignorant motherfuckin republican liars."

Amazing! Such profound and insightful commentary!

"The are chickenhawks. thats all they are. They are not even smart."

I'm smart enough to put a "y" at the end of "they" and to capitalize the first word of a sentence.

"I will be lookin for you jerry."

And, assuming you find jerry (who is not me), what, exactly, will you do to him, tough guy? Hmmm?

Posting Tom Tomorrow cartoons does little to enhance your efforts at intimidation. Said efforts fail miserably.

nonanarchist (who is shaking with laughter, not fear)

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