U.S., Iraqi police dispute death toll in ambushes

General: Coordinated attacks show little sophistication

Monday, December 1, 2003 Posted: 7:06 PM EST (0006 GMT)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/01/sprj.irq.main/index.html

Kimmitt said the casualty reports were "visual battlefield reports ... from soldiers involved in the engagement.

"That's why we have said all of these are estimated," he said.

Iraqi police in Samarra said they could confirm only eight deaths, including an elderly Iranian man believed to have been on a pilgrimage to a shrine in the town. The Iraqis said at least 50 people were wounded.

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U.S.: New Iraqi currency a lure for attacks

Central Command: GI killed Monday west of Baghdad

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/01/sprj.irq.main/index.html

Iraqi police disputed the U.S. casualty information about the attackers, saying that only eight bodies were in the morgue, including two elderly Iranian pilgrims, and that none wore Fedayeen clothing. Police said 50 people were wounded.

Rudesheim conceded that some of the insurgents reported to be dead may actually have been wounded, because of the method that U.S. forces used to collect information about the firefight.

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U.S. military says 54 Iraqis die in Samarra battle, but residents say death toll is much lower

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/a/2003/12/01/international0612EST0463.DTL

The U.S. military initially said 46 Iraqi fighters died and five American soldiers were injured. But a statement on Monday raised the Iraqi dead to 54.

Residents of Samarra disputed those figures, saying at most eight or nine people died. Three bodies lay in the hospital morgue. There was no way to reconcile the accounts.

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The U.S. Army says that 54 insurgents were killed...

I don't mean to sound morbid but where are the bodies? The press was simply told that 54 guerillas were killed, no bodies, no pictures of bodies, no morgue reports, no bodies in hospitals. So where are the dead fighters?

The U.S. Army is also making the claim that Saddam loyalists mounted the assault, but again, what is

the proof that the guerillas were loyal to Saddam? The U.S. Army also makes the claim that the guerillas were all "dressed in black" like Saddam's feared Fedayeen militia... but if YOU were waging a guerilla war against a powerful adversary, would you dress in a way so as to identify yourself as a combatant?

If you'll remember at the begining of the war, the U.S. claimed the Iraqi fighters were not playing fair by taking off their uniforms and fighting in civilian clothes. Now the U.S. would have you believe that with Iraq under military occupation... Iraqi guerillas are dressing up in black uniforms so as to be easily identified and killed. Nonsense, complete nonsense.

What are you trying to prove??

The bodies may well have been taken away by the other terrorists in order to avoid identification.

Who cares. I'm sorry the elderly Iranian got killed but who killed him?? Do we know if it was a US bullet??

I know for certain he would not ve dead today if those gangsters had not tried to steal the money.

None of our guys were seriously hurt and the Saddam scumbags came away empty handed trailing their dead behind them.

A good day for democracy and peace in Iraq.

Of course, some people would like nothing better than to see America fail and for Saddam to came back to power.

The question is: why?

"The question is: why?"

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I want the U.S. to fail. I also want the Iraqis to get the kind of government that they want. Unless the U.S. occupation fails, they will not get such a government. They will get one made up of flunkies of Bush and flunkies of Israel.

What type of government do you believe the Iraqis want? Are you saying that they do not want a Democratic government that advocates equality and freedom for all? That they would be happier under an iron-fisted dictater like Hussein?

I think if the USA fails in Iraq, that is exactly what type of Government they will get. And I'm pretty certain it's not what they want.

Fuckin' traitor. Pretentious treasonist. You make me sick.

All I have to say to you Meyer London, is that you're in for a lifetime of disappointment.



You know folks, it might be good for America to have a few more Meyer Londons squawkin' and balkin'. We all know that nothing makes an individual or a team more determined to complete its objectives and goals, than when it's detractors start their naysaying.

For me, there's never been anything nearly as motivational. It's like adding fuel to a fire. And it would likely bring the rest of us (the overwhelming and vast majority, who want to see America succeed, closer together.

So maybe we should be thanking Meyer London for his idiocy(?)

Nothing would please me more than to see a Democratic government implemented in that cesspool of the Middle East, if only just to piss off the fifth column scumbags.

You think that the US wants governments in the Middle East that advocate freedom and equality for all? From what solar system did you just arrive? Is that why the US is supporting Mubarik in Egypt? Why it supported the Shah of Iraq and a whole series of brutal thugs in Turkey? Not to mention Sharon in Israel. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he supports freedom and equality for all, especially if they are Arabs.

You didn't answer my questions.

If the Iraqis want the Baath Party back it should be back. It is no concern of yours. The main thing right now for anyone who believes in independence and self-determination for third world nations is to get the US out of Iraq and Israel out of the West Bank and Gaza.

>I also want the Iraqis to get the kind of government that they want.

A lie. Cut and dry.

If you wanted the Iraqis to get the kind of government they want, you would want the coalition forces to stay put, otherwise the extremist who would take the country back into forced dictatorship will do just that.

Are you saying they want to be slaves to dictators? If you are desiring the removal of coalition forces, that's exactly what you're saying, and you're saying that's the kind of govenment that they want.

You can't look a cold and hungry person in the face and say "Be ye warmed and filled", then walk away and say "I sure do hope he gets what he wants." That's heartless. But you're a marxist, so I expect foolishness like that from you.

You were previously inferring that the Iraqis don't want the US in Iraq. But you've stated not even the smallest iota of evidence or fact to support your position.

On the contrary, you wen't off on an unjustified harangue about the US supposedly propping up dictators in Turkey, Egypt, and Iran (of all places). All you've done is prove yourself to be a fringe nutcase.

Now you're inferring that the Iraqis want the Ba'ath party back in power, but again nothing to support this position.

Polls of Iraqi citizens indicate an overwhelming support for American efforts.

Granted, there are a moderate number of radical dissenters, all of whom have far more courage than any American activist. And many of whom are being forcibly put down, as well they should.

Now you suggest we should leave Iraq with the mission incompleted, Hussein still at large, and Iraq in a turbulent and susceptible condition.

You are obviously insane.

You want to see America fail; you said this yourself.

Why would anyone want to see an organization fail?

Answer: Because they hate that organization.

Why would you want to see America fail?

Answer: You hate America, and you hate Americans.

Why would you remain in a country you hate?

You're turn to answer.

"The main thing right now for anyone who believes in independence and self-determination for third world nations is to get the US out of Iraq and Israel out of the West Bank and Gaza."

Did it ever occur to you that maybe these counbtries are third world for a reason? Like, perhaps they are simply not ready for self determination and independance as illustrated by the glorious failures that many of their societies are.

And why would we ever leave Iraq before it's to our long term benefit to do so?

And how is it that Israel is supposed to "get out" of itself, as the West Bank, Gaza and the Golen Heights are absolutely legitimate areas of the state of Israel?

"None of our guys were seriously hurt and the Saddam scumbags came away empty handed trailing their dead behind them. " Your sure about this?

Yep we showed that little kid Ali Abdullah Amin that "Saddam scumbag" not to play in the street when the US army comes to town! "Many civilians killed and injured from random U.S. fire in recent fight with 'guerrillas'" news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=469253

Another possible reason they can't "find" the bodies is they didn't kill any "attackers". So if if they can't get thier story straight on the people that were killed why do you think they wouldn't lie about how serouisly our guys got hurt or if any were killed?

As far as wanting to see our guys hurt thats b.s., pro war people are the wons who want to see people killed, the whole thing about not going to war was so women, kids, old people and our guys wouldn't get killed for a bunch of lies. Now wer'e supposed to say leave them there for years, and send more, so more can die just so Mr. "bring them on" can pretend he is a tough talking Texas Cowboy?

How do you know these civilians weren't killed by the terrorists?

They have guns and rockets too and judging by the number of iraqis their carbombs have killed already (remember the Red Cross) they don't give a damn about civilian casualties.

These "resistance fighters" you and Meyer are rooting for are scumbags but to you they're heroes because they hate America just as much as you do.

Ozzy, I really wish you were clever enough to understand how wrong you are but I fear you will never know.

These are not legal and legitimate parts of Israel; not even the right-wing, nutcase Reagan administration claimed that. The drivel about Iraq not being ready for self-determination and needing the guidance from white people like Bushy Tail is racist, 19th century style colonialism. Most people don't even know that crackpots like you clowns still exist outside the John Birch Society or the Association of Retired S. African Police Chiefs.

...STILL hasn't answered any questions.

The one I'd like to see answered:

"Why would you remain in a country you hate?"

C'mon, Oscar Meyer. Give us the answer.

>These are not legal and legitimate parts of Israel

The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it.

And No, there's still not a damn one of you who have ever made an argument to prove this statement otherwise. History always comes back and bites you liberal wingnuts right in the ass.

I don't hate any countries. First of all, "countries" are physically just masses of soil, rock and water. As for the people who live in them, in most cases they don't have any real say in how the country is run; it is run by the ruling class regardless or not or whether corporate-financed "elections" to determine which millionaire will become head of state are held. The US is a prime example of that. The people who do seem to hate the country are the billionaires of the ruling class who see it as just an instrument for the accumulation of money, and the right-wing fanatics like you who do their bidding.

Why does it have to be *exclusively* "rightwing fanatics" that are doing the bidding of the ruling class?

You do however make some excellent points. Many people, especially in America, do not have any real say in how they are governed by the "ruling elite". I think we need to explore this further.

Why do you suppose that is, Meyer, that many Americans have no say in how they are governed by the ruling elite?

I personally believe it is because most Americans simply do not care. They are not interested in politics, perhaps believe as you do that the system is rigged, or whatever. There could be any number of reasons for their apathy, but the bottom line is that, and what it ultimately boils down to is, that most people just don't care enough. They don't care enough to vote, or to challenge the system if they believe it wrong, to write a Congressman or a Corporation or whomever necessary to make things right.

Apathy.

So now, why are we as Americans not more vigilant about controlling our Government?

I believe it boils down to a lot of reasons. Many Americans think the government is doing a fine job and some do not. Those that do not, however, pass their days complacently whining and doing nothing really to change the situation.

Americans are well fed, clothed, sheltered, and, in general, wealthy people. They're innovative and smart and the corporations that you hate, well they do far more good than harm.

No one in America is *really* oppressed, there are no mass graves, no concentration camps, no ovens, no Gestapo, and no Communistic genocide of millions.

You own your own body and your own mind, and the Government can't take those from you. If there's ever been a freer nation than the USA in all of history, which I wholly and sincerely doubt, I'd love to know of it.

No matter where you go in the world, and I personally have been to a LOT of places, everyone recognizes the American flag when they see it, and mostly it commands respect. I've been treated like a king in South America and Africa, and even the Middle East, not because I did anything to deserve such treatment, but simply because I'm an American.

You do have some righteous points, but the truth of the matter is that your little internet tantrums are likened to pissing into a brisk spring breeze.

Your tone is one of anger and disgust, and people really don't hear what you have to say, unless of course they are as bitter as you, because bitterness turns off even the most open mind.

The biggest problem I've seen in my time on IMC is not the arguments, flamewars, trolling, namecalling and other inane crap that goes on around here.

It is the fact that most times the people doing the complaining offer absolutely no feasable solutions.

Take yourself for instance. I have read perhaps a hundred or more of your comments, which have almost exclusively been griping and hot tempered anti-rightwing vitriol, but I don't ever recall ever reading even a single solution proposed by you, that I would consider reasonable.

And for that reason alone, I can't take you or your opinions seriously. In my mind, you are a caricature of Socialist thought, and that makes your positions mostly repulsive.

"he people who do seem to hate the country are the billionaires of the ruling class who see it as just an instrument for the accumulation of money, and the right-wing fanatics like you who do their bidding."

Let's see. According to Meyer London, most Americans hate America.

Does this not sound like the ravings of complete and utter lunatic? I mean, most people become disatisfied or disillusioned from time to time, but it is a fact that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Americans love their country. That's rightwing, leftwing, AND centrists.

Only the fringe radicals, such as Meyer London and many of the other IMC freaks, seem to hate America in my opinion.

Meyer, buddy, you need to open your eyes. America is a great nation that has and continues to accomplish many great things. If you hate America so much, then please leave.

It would be a much nicer place without people like you. Of that fact, I have no doubt.