A Letter from John Buchanan... Buchanan has received hundreds of credible death threats and is now living under 24-hour police protection.

Letter from John Buchanan - Author of Bush - Nazi Link Confirmed
Now living under 24-hour police protection after hundreds
of credible death threats


TO: Jonathan Salant, Associated Press
CC: Sandy Johnson, Joe Magruder, Associated Press
Jonathan,

As you and your colleagues will see below, Geocities.com has noted editorially that AP "spun" the Bush-Nazi story.

I find it interesting and encouraging that such a reputable and generally impartial Web site would take such a clear stance. It turns out, based on the many e-mails I have been receiving from all over the world -- a group of law students in Kenya, a Pakistani office worker, a scholar in England, fellow journalists here in the US -- that a wide berth of readers and thinkers share that view.
I do as well.

The more I have thought about it, the more troubled I am that, given my still dire circumstances in light of my danger and anxiety, you have not even had the decency to contact me and hear my thoughts and feelings by direct interchange, in private. Therefore, I have chosen to "go public" with this communication in the hope of expediting the process of having you and AP acknowledge the truth -- and your own mis-reporting.

This is a vitally important story, as you will soon see, and it will not die and fade away because you and AP deign it so.

I am aware by cc of some of the e-mails being sent to you in defense of me and the New Hampshire Gazette, as well as truth and accuracy in reporting.

I am therefore challenging you and AP, in public view, to do one of two things, as I can see no other possibility now.

1) Either DISPROVE my reporting in the New Hampshire Gazette, by whatever credible means you can, or

2) CORRECT THE RECORD officially with regard to your inexplicably watered down and factually inaccurate story, as related in my e-mail last weekend and forwarded to Steve Fowle at NHG.

Your worst inaccuracy, however, was your general reduction of the seriousness of the facts by the "only one of seven directors" defense.

The Bush family has used that for years. It is NOT TRUE. The facts show that Bush and Harriman ran the day to day operations of UBC and all its clients and related assets, for six more years AFTER THE WAR and involving Switzerland, Panama, Brazil and Argentina, where Thyssen died in 1951.

Your account of Thyssen's war experiences were 100% wrong. You should have asked me or Mr. Loftus as the only true "experts" in the world on this at the moment.
You could have been the third, and done some great and important reporting with regard to this missing history and its clear and present implications.

Instead, you went for a clumsily executed whitewash.


Why?
There will be a National Media Town Hall meeting in Washington in November, after my third story appears, which deals explicitly with the 60-year cover-up, including the two months it took to finally end it with Mr. Fowle, the true hero here in my opinion. Instead of quoting Mr. Fowle on an important point about the fading journalism tradition in this country, you quoted an irrelevant observation from a college professor.

Worse, you limited your entire story to just one seizure
(UBC in October 1942) when there were 22 more between 1942
(prior to UBC) and 1951.

How could you not have reported that?

Mr. Fowle and I and my supporters were concerned you would "scoop" us with our differing news cycles and beat us to the never before reported stuff I have in this Friday's NHG. To not have done so runs counter to any reporter's killer instincts on a big story.

I trust that in due time, you will explain your reasoning on this or that someone will on AP's behalf.
I can be reached at (305) 535-9606 if you'd like to talk. Mr.
Fowle can be reached at (603) 433-9898.

You might also want to contact John Loftus at LoftusHome@cs.com.
I trust you can understand that this is not personal. It is an issue of vital national interest and given my investment to date in it, I can not turn back until the whole truth and nothing but the truth is out.
I hope to hear from you and get your cooperation in that effort.
Thank you.

---------
Background


The Geocities Site Buchanan refers to. (Basically a reprint of the AP story plus a LOT more information. Click on NEXT PAGE at the bottom.)
http://www.geocities.com/bushfamilynazis/

SOURCE:
Disinfotainment Today
http://www.disinfotainmenttoday.com/

adap2k

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BUSH-NAZI LINK CONFIRMED

Documents in National Archives Prove George W. Bush's
Grandfather Traded with Nazis - Even After Pearl Harbor

by John Buchanan (Exclusive to the New Hampshire Gazette)

WASHINGTON - After 60 years of inattention and even denial
by the U.S. media, newly-uncovered government documents in
The National Archives and Library of Congress reveal that
Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush,
served as a business partner of and U.S. banking operative
for the financial architect of the Nazi war machine from 1926 until 1942, when Congress took aggressive action against Bush and his "enemy national" partners.
The documents also show that Bush and his colleagues, according to reports from the U.S. Department of the Treasury, tried to conceal their financial alliance with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, a steel and coal baron who, beginning in the mid-1920s, personally funded Adolf Hitler's rise to power by the subversion of democratic principle and German law.
Furthermore, the declassified records demonstrate that Bush
and his associates, who included E. Roland Harriman, younger
brother of American icon W. Averell Harriman, and George
Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather,
continued their dealings with the German industrial tycoon for nearly a year after the U.S. entered the war.
No Story?
For six decades these historical facts have gone unreported
by the mainstream U.S. media. The essential facts have
appeared on the Internet and in relatively obscure books, but were dismissed by the media and Bush family as undocumented diatribes. This story has also escaped the attention of "official" Bush biographers, Presidential historians and publishers of U.S. history books covering World War II and its aftermath.
The White House did not respond to phone calls seeking comment.
The Summer of '42
The unraveling of the web of Bush-Harriman-Thyssen U.S.
enterprises, all of which operated out of the same suite of
offices at 39 Broadway in New York under the supervision of
Prescott Bush, began with a story that ran simultaneously in
the New York Herald-Tribune and Washington Post on July 31,
1941. By then, the U.S. had been at war with Germany for
nearly eight months.
"Hitler's Angel Has $3 Million in U.S. Bank," declared the front-page Herald-Tribune headline. The lead paragraph characterized Fritz Thyssen as "Adolf Hitler's original patron a decade ago."
In fact, the steel and coal magnate had aggressively supported and funded Hitler since October 1923, according to Thyssen's autobiography, I Paid Hitler. In that book, Thyssen also acknowledges his direct personal relationships with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels and Rudolf Hess.
The Herald-Tribune also cited unnamed sources who suggested
Thyssen's U.S. "nest egg" in fact belonged to "Nazi bigwigs" including Goebbels, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler, or even Hitler himself.
Business is Business
The "bank," founded in 1924 by W. Averell Harriman on behalf of Thyssen and his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V. of Holland, was Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York City. According to government documents, it was in reality a clearing house for a number of Thyssen-controlled enterprises and assets, including as many as a dozen individual businesses. UBC also bought and shipped
overseas gold, steel, coal, and U.S. Treasury bonds. The company's activities were administered for Thyssen by a Netherlands-born, naturalized U.S. citizen named Cornelis Lievense, who served as president of UBC. Roland Harriman was chairman and Prescott Bush a managing director.
The Herald-Tribune article did not identify Bush or Harriman
as executives of UBC, or Brown Brothers Harriman, in which
they were partners, as UBC's private banker. A confidential
FBI memo from that period suggested, without naming the
Bush and Harriman families, that politically prominent individuals were about to come under official U.S. government scrutiny as Hitler's plunder of Europe continued unabated. After the "Hitler's Angel" article was published Bush and Harriman
made no attempts to divest themselves of the controversial
Thyssen financial alliance, nor did they challenge the newspaper report that UBC was, in fact, a de facto Nazi front organization in the U.S.
Instead, the government documents show, Bush and his partners increased their subterfuge to try to conceal the true nature and ownership of their various businesses, particularly after the U.S.
entered the war. The documents also disclose that Cornelis Lievense, Thyssen's personal appointee to oversee U.S. matters for his Rotterdam-based Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V., via UBC for nearly two decades, repeatedly denied to U.S. government investigators any knowledge of the ownership of the Netherlands bank or the role of Thyssen in it. Brown Brothers Harriman sent letters to the government seeking reconsideration of the seizures by using false information.
UBC's original group of business associates included George
Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather,
who had a relationship with the Harriman family that began in
1919. In 1922, Walker and W. Averell Harriman traveled to
Berlin to set up the German branch of their banking and
investment operations, which were largely based on critical
war resources such as steel and coal.
The Walker-Harriman-created German industrial alliance also
included partnership with another German titan who supported
Hitler's rise, Friedrich Flick, who partnered with Thyssen in the German Steel Trust that forged the Nazi war machine. For his role in using slave labor and his own steel, coal and arms resources to build Hitler's war effort, Flick was convicted at the Nuremberg trials and sentenced to prison.
The Family Business
In 1926, after Prescott Bush had married Walker's daughter,
Dorothy, Walker brought Bush in as a vice president of the
private banking and investment firm of W.A. Harriman & Co.,
also located in New York. Bush became a partner in the firm
that later became Brown Brothers Harriman and the largest
private investment bank in the world. Eventually, Bush became a director of and stockholder in UBC.
However, the government documents note that Bush, Harriman,
Lievense and the other UBC stockholders were in fact "nominees," or phantom shareholders, for Thyssen and his Holland bank, meaning that they acted at the direct behest of their German client.
Seized
On October 20, 1942, under authority of the Trading with the
Enemy Act, the U.S. Congress seized UBC and liquidated its
assets after the war. The seizure is confirmed by Vesting
Order No. 248 in the U.S. Office of the Alien Property Custodian and signed by U.S. Alien Property Custodian Leo T. Crowley.
In August, under the same authority, Congress had seized the
first of the Bush-Harriman-managed Thyssen entities,
Hamburg-American Line, under Vesting Order No. 126, also
signed by Crowley. Eight days after the seizure of UBC,
Congress invoked the Trading with the Enemy Act again to
take control of two more Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses
- Holland-American Trading Corp. (Vesting Order No. 261)
and Seamless Steel Equipment Corp. (Vesting Order No. 259).
The documents from the Archives also show that the Bushes
and Harrimans shipped valuable U.S. assets, including gold, coal, steel and U.S. Treasury bonds, to their foreign clients overseas between 1931-33, as Hitler engineered his rise to power.
Still No Story?
Since 1942, the information has not appeared in any U.S. news coverage of any Bush political campaign, nor has it been included in any of the major Bush family biographies. It was, however, covered extensively in George H.W. Bush: The Unauthorized Biography, by Webster Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin. Chaitkin's father served as an attorney in the 1940s for some of the victims of the Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.
The book gave a detailed, accurate accounting of the Bush
family's long Nazi affiliation, but no mainstream U.S. media
entity reported on or even investigated the allegations,
despite careful documentation by the authors. Major
booksellers declined to distribute the book, which was
dismissed by Bush supporters as biased and untrue. Its authors
struggled even to be reviewed in reputable newspapers. That
the book was published by Lyndon LaRouche's organization
undoubtedly made it easier to dismiss, but does not change
the facts.
The essence of the story has been posted for years
on various Internet sites, including BuzzFlash.com and
TakeBackTheMedia.com, but no online media seem to
have independently confirmed it.
In the 1990s, former U.S. Justice Department Nazi war
crimes prosecutor John Loftus, now honorary president
of the Florida Holocaust Museum, wrote a book and launched
a web site (http://www.john-loftus.com) which did breakthrough
reporting, including establishing the link between Prescott
Bush, Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation and forced
labor at Auschwitz. Although the widely-respected Loftus
established a successful international speaking career with
his information, no U.S. newspaper or major TV news
program acknowledged his decade of work, nor did he ever
see many of the recently released documents.
Meanwhile, the mainstream media have apparently made no
attempt since World War II to either verify or disprove the
allegations of Nazi collaboration against the Bush family.
Instead, they have attempted to dismiss or discredit such
Internet sites or "unauthorized" books without any journalistic inquiry or research into their veracity.
Loyal Defenders
The National Review ran an essay on September 1 by their
White House correspondent Byron York, entitled "Annals of
Bush-Hating." It begins mockingly: "Are you aware of the
murderous history of George W. Bush - indeed, of the
entire Bush family? Are you aware of the president's Nazi
sympathies? His crimes against humanity? And do you know,
by the way, that George W. Bush is a certifiable moron?"
York goes on to discredit the "Bush is a moron" IQ hoax,
but fails to disprove the Nazi connection.
The more liberal Boston Globe ran a column September 29
by Reason magazine's Cathy Young in which she referred
to "Bush-o-phobes on the Internet" who "repeat preposterous
claims about the Bush family's alleged Nazi connections."
Poles Tackle the Topic Newsweek Polska, the magazine's Polish edition, published a short piece on the "Bush Nazi past" in its March 5, 2003
edition. The item reported that "the Bush family reaped
rewards from the forced-labor prisoners in the Auschwitz
concentration camp," according to a copyrighted
English-language translation from Scoop Media
(http://www.scoop.co.nz).
The story also reported the seizure of the various
Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.
Still Not Interested
Major U.S. media outlets, including ABC News, NBC News,
CNN, The New York Times, Washington Post, Washington
Times, Los Angeles Times and Miami Herald, as well as
Knight-Ridder Newspapers, have repeatedly declined to
investigate the story when information regarding discovery
of the documents was presented to them beginning Friday,
August 29. Newsweek U.S. correspondent Michael Isikoff,
famous for his reporting of big scoops during the
Clinton-Lewinsky sexual affair of the 1990s, declined twice
to accept an exclusive story based on the documents
from the archives.
Aftermath
In 1952, Prescott Bush was elected to the U.S. Senate,
with no press accounts about his well-concealed Nazi past.
There is no record of any U.S. press coverage of the
Bush-Nazi connection during any political campaigns
conducted by George Herbert Walker Bush, Jeb Bush,
or George W. Bush, with the exception of a brief mention
in an unrelated story in the Sarasota Herald Tribune in
November 2000 and a brief but inaccurate account in
The Boston Globe in 2001.
John Buchanan is an award-winning and internationally
published journalist and investigative reporter with 33
years of experience in New York, Los Angeles, Washington
and Miami. His work has appeared in more than 50
newspapers, magazines and books. He can be reached
by e-mail at: jtwg@bellsouth.net


http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi%20Link


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www.disinfotainmenttoday.com

First they ask you nicely to do this or not to do that. Then they give you a warning, written or otherwise, if this doesn't work. If this fails they send the military, the police, the goons, or the company security officers to do the dirty work and show you that the gloves are off. All authority in this society rests, in the last analysis, upon violence. Ignore this reality at your peril.

In the US all authority rests on the consent of the people to be governed. The people authorise the use of force, ina controlled and reasonable manner, to protect their lives and property.

i don't think anybody has a problem with that - unless they live in a plastic bubble and are unaware of some of the lowlife scum among our species.

>>In the US all authority rests on the consent of the people to be governed. >>:

oh yeah,maybe that's why there's an unelected pres.

maybe that's why 40 to 50 % of the electorate regularly abstains from voting - if they even register at all in the first place.

maybe that's why untold millions of aliens get taxation without representation.

maybe that's why nazi arnold was elected by an amazing...14,5 % of the cali electorate!!!

the us is NOT a democracy - because a democracy's main feature ought to be par condicio - that is,equal daily time amount for ALL opinions where it matters for today's majority-consensus shaping:
on prime time mass tv.

the us is a scheindemkratie - fascism is a simpler name for the game.

Why don't you go to Washington and tell some high-powered lobbyists that. They will be so amused that they might buy you a drink.

try and show up more often if you will - there's a daily war ragin'g here daily against the bushiite moles,and we could use each other's help...

That's right. The fate of the world will depend upon what happens daily at LA-IMC.

not quite indeed - but if busharon hires 2 or 3 multinick shills like you to cycle-spam leftwing thinking on la indy 24/7,than it means it's not so irrelevant to spread freedom here after all...

get the drift moley?

You ARE fucked in the membrane.

...if you think that your ad hominem device is any replacement for your total lack of counteraguments,we have to tell you:

it only makes you more like a stool.

>> oh yeah,maybe that's why there's an unelected pres.

- However you have collectively have given consent to be ruled by your "unelected pres". A good example is that the other candidate admitted he was the president..

>> maybe that's why 40 to 50 % of the electorate regularly abstains from voting - if they even register at all in the first place.

Not voting is effectively giving consent to others to vote on your behalf. However you (collectively) give consent to be ruled by the state in lots of other areas besides just voting.

>> maybe that's why nazi arnold was elected by an amazing...14,5 % of the cali electorate!!!

- Isnt that more democratic than sifting through the candidates until you find two that look basically the same (good for catching the swing voter) and then having an election between them? You should like this method otherwise you dont have a dogs show of getting anyone anywhere near as far left as you into a position of power.

>> the us is NOT a democracy - because a democracy's main feature ought to be par condicio - that is,equal daily time amount for ALL opinions where it matters for today's majority-consensus shaping:on prime time mass tv.

The problem is what do you define as an opinion. there are infinite possibilities for opinions. some are very stupid and some are more logical. deciding which are valid for your equal time on tv will be difficult and even if it was possible there would be a bias towards the theories that have the most variation (and probably the least reliable) because they would get the most air time.

Of course the current system is based on "entertainment value" it isnt all that great but probably just a bit better than the previous method and most others I can think of.

>> the us is a scheindemkratie - fascism is a simpler name for the game.

Look around the world. you should save the word "facism" for states taht are worse.. OR you should admit that you believe ALL states are "facist" (thereby totally devaluing the term)

>>you have collectively have given consent to be ruled by your "unelected pres".>>:

i never did. i dunno who did or how you can assert such a thing.

>>Not voting is effectively giving consent to others to vote on your behalf.>>:

no:

1.many voters at the last presidentials were deleted from the rolls,not only in florida,by bush's thugs.

2.as for those who CHOOSE not to vote,you better ask THEM why they don't vote - could it be they've lost all faith in the system - especially given the lack of any real alternative?

3.aliens who pay takes but can't vote are a betrayal of the us founding battlecry:
NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!

REMEMBER SCOTTIE?

>>- Isnt that more democratic than sifting through the candidates until you find two that look basically the same (good for catching the swing voter) and then having an election between them? You should like this method otherwise you dont have a dogs show of getting anyone anywhere near as far left as you into a position of power.>>:

i have a much better idea:

1.ban lobbying and soft or hard money - the cancer of democracy

2.give all candidates par condicio,ie equal time amount of daily air time on mass tv

3.state or fed-founded campaigns,free air time

4.let voters choose among all candidates,but invalidate any election that fails to get out at least 50% +1 of the electorate - we want democracy not oligarchy

5.ban computer voting and punching machines
voting in a democracy must be as simple as a 5 year old would understand - go back to paper ballots and pencils

6.last but not least:ban voter registration - it hassles and scares people off elections - just what the power plutocracy wants - because it's an extra filing that allows power pigs to de fact get much closer to figuring out who you voted for.

any citizen older than 18 but for few exceptions ought to be able to go to the polls and fucking vote upon proof of citizenship.

>>The problem is what do you define as an opinion. there are infinite possibilities for opinions. some are very stupid and some are more logical. deciding which are valid for your equal time on tv will be difficult and even if it was possible there would be a bias towards the theories that have the most variation (and probably the least reliable) because they would get the most air time. >>:

it's NOT up to scottie or adrian or anyone single person to decide or preselect which opinions are better than others - it's up to the PEOPLE and that's precisely why there ought to be NO preselection - let the people make their free choice at last.

i think you probably wanted to say that the bias would be towards the opinions with the LEAST variation - but i think there would be a balance between amounts of little-varying opinions and their little-varied contraries,so in the end there would be a certain overall par condicio.

but of course if one side ended up prevailing because of little variation,then this could easily be balanced and compensated by giving an equivalent air time for repetition to the contrary opinions.

and although no system is perfect,mine is certainly way better and closer to what democracy is all about than our current gestapoized and muzzled media shit:

>>Look around the world. you should save the word "facism" for states taht are worse.. OR you should admit that you believe ALL states are "facist" (thereby totally devaluing the term)>>:

certainly i am convinced that democracy has never existyed anywhere and does not now - but i don't think that if i talk as i do of global fascism i devalue the term - i'm just describing reality.

anyway let me again state that although i frontally disagree with you and maintain taht you are a paid shill at the behest of crimininal power pigs,at least you have the dignity and intelligence to construct logical counterarguments that are worth discussing and are sometimes thought-provoking,unlike your moronic colleagues the likes of fresce nonanarchist etc.

i just hope they are your colleagues and not your alyternicks,but your coments sure deserve respect.

acknowledging this also is what democracy is all about for me.

and if debates such as this - where par condicio is ALMOST real - were the standard on massmedia,...

>> I never did. I dunno who did or how you can assert such a thing.

you collectively (I said that so why do you have the confusion) not you singular. you singular don’t give permission to any prez I assume. Unfortunately for you the majority do so your opinion doesn’t matter. Also failure to give permission is de-facto acceptance of other peoples choice just like not voting. that is because true anarchism is a non-option. since a power vacuumed like that is not a stable state. (you may care to dispute that)

>> 1.many voters at the last presidentials were deleted from the rolls, not only in Florida, by bush's thugs.

- many as in "next to 0%". However, no system is perfect so I will accept that probably happened (people where effectively disenfranchised by situation of polling booths or acceptance of certain ballots or arrangement of transport or work etc) in some form or other probably both in favour of republicans and democrats. But at the same time that doesn’t have much implication besides the fact that you should try to fix it next time.
If everyone voted there would probably be a win for the democrats and the country would move a little to the left but it would be undemocratic just to "guess" that also not voting implies a certain amount of not caring and should people who don’t care be putting unconsidered opinions upon the rest of us? (Or maybe you will say yes to that too?)

>> 2.as for those who CHOOSE not to vote, you better ask THEM why they don't vote - could it be they've lost all faith in the system - especially given the lack of any real alternative?

- the logical reason not to vote is that the difference you make by your vote isn’t worth the cost to you (the trip to the booth) For many people in a large country that is the case. this not being worth it may be influenced by not caring and not knowing policies as indicated above.
the reason why you don’t seem to have a "real" alternative that would suit you is because no one supports it besides you and a few fruit cakes.

>> 3.aliens who pay takes but can't vote are a betrayal of the us founding battle cry: NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!

- Exactly where will you draw the line here? does VAT in Britain count as tax that deserves representation? sure the tax on a m&M packet I might have bought from there might be a little bit but morally how can you start attaching amount of tax to ability to vote? from another perspective if I had a house in ever country in the world I could "deserve" 200 odd votes at a country level and many more at state levels (I know not all places have votes). A big country could send a few hundred citizens over to a small county like one of those pacific islands and take over their government... then go home and have a good laugh about it.
I guess you could work out a meaningful system that would work if so go ahead. The US could handle giving the vote to its aliens without any disaster but I’m still not sure if I would do it citizenship is theoretically attached to a certain level of commitment to the state so that decisions might theoretically be made for the good of the state as opposed to short term financial gain etc.

>I have a much better idea:
1.ban lobbying and soft or hard money - the cancer of democracy

- yup sure I'm with you there. lobbying does provide expert (if biased) information on some topics though, I assume you would create a system that prevented the money and the "old boys" part of it.

> 2.give all candidates par condicio,ie equal time amount of daily air time on mass tv

- that’s ok if there are only two candidates. but you can't have "bob the NAZI" getting equal time with the democratic party just because one person supports him.
Do you mean weighting it according to polling or previous vote rates?

3.state or fed-founded campaigns, free air time

- I’m with you there. Again you'll need a system but this is at least partially done elsewhere in the world.

> 4.let voters choose among all candidates, but invalidate any election that fails to get out at least 50% +1 of the electorate - we want democracy not oligarchy

- what if that results in you never getting a government?
what sort of people would start quitting the election so that others could win by default?

> 5.ban computer voting and punching machines
voting in a democracy must be as simple as a 5 year old would understand - go back to paper ballots and pencils

- How about the option to do all of that? by the way would we be enfranchising those five year olds? Age distinctions are arbitrary as anything else.

> 6.last but not least: ban voter registration - it hassles and scares people off elections - just what the power plutocracy wants - because it's an extra filing that allows power pigs to de fact get much closer to figuring out who you voted for.

- hmm sounds like it might get easy to cheat the system if there is no voter registration.

> any citizen older than 18 but for few exceptions ought to be able to go to the polls and fucking vote upon proof of citizenship.

- sure why not.. again concerned your system would be hard to police i.e. prevent fraud though.

>> it's NOT up to Scottie or Adrian or anyone single person to decide or preselect which opinions are better than others - it's up to the PEOPLE and that's precisely why there ought to be NO preselection - let the people make their free choice at last.

- your average person (or any person for that matter) cannot consider all possible opinions and make and informed choice. The more choice you give them the worse their final decision will be. Even more importantly they can be F'ed putting that much effort into voting what they want is a relatively simple choice between a limited number of candidates and ideas. If you make there be 1000 candidates all with equal time you can imagine what will happen with most votes assuming that voter turn out trates dont just drop through the floor.
Besides that the elected representatives will form all sorts of unelected coalitions.

>> I think you probably wanted to say that the bias would be towards the opinions with the LEAST variation

maybe I misunderstood you. if you give "ideas" equal time then you will have to give the guys with the wildest ideas equal time to the main stream ideas. since there are more "stupid" ways to look at something than there are correct ways then stupid ideas will get more air time. However maybe you don’t mean equal time for ideas instead equal time for ideas considering the amount of people who support those ideas or representatives who support them. if that is the case then sure I’m behind that too, although there is a certain argument for weighting time towards those who would know and care about an issue. for example the nthern Ireland issue is most important to the Irish so their opinion on the issue is a bit more important than that of your average Indian even though there are almost a billion more Indians.

> but I think there would be a balance between amounts of little-varying opinions and their little-varied contraries,so in the end there would be a certain overall par condicio.

- The good thing about big parties is that they have to appeal to a wide section of the comunity without alienating too much of it. a 100 small parties could each alienate everone except for their own interest group.

> but of course if one side ended up prevailing because of little variation, then this could easily be balanced and compensated by giving an equivalent air time for repetition to the contrary opinions.

- question is what is the pivot on which you are balancing these opinions. the person who picks the pivot controls the country.

>> and although no system is perfect, mine is certainly way better and closer to what democracy is all about than our current gestapoized and muzzled media shit:

some of it might be. But in my opinion it wont change the world all that much if you put it into action.

> anyway let me again state that although I frontally disagree with you and maintain that you are a paid shill at the behest of crimininal power pigs,at least you have the dignity and intelligence to construct logical counterarguments.

hahaha you crack me up.. er thanks I guess.
I wish they would actually start honoring the pay cheques Im supposed to be getting

>>Also failure to give permission is de-facto acceptance of other peoples choice just like not voting.>>:not in a blocked,no-alternative,no-par-condicio ttotalinarianism like the us or the rest of the west and the world for that matter.

politics in the us are limited by antidemocratic factors like banning communists,big business support,massmedia muzzling and monopoly.

no wonder most people have long since stopped voting or registering - even setting aside electoral fraud.

what's the sense of voting in nazi germany?

what's the sense of vorting in nazi us?

"">> 1.many voters at the last presidentials were deleted from the rolls, not only in Florida, by bush's thugs.

- many as in "next to 0%".>>:

percentages are in dispute,but were it as you said,it would have made a helluva lot of difference in a narrowly contested election.

>>disenfranchised by situation of polling booths or acceptance of certain ballots or arrangement of transport or work etc) in some form or other probably both in favour of republicans and democrats>>:

not at all:in florida for instance,most people maliciously scrapped from the rolls were blacks who are known to vote democrat in that neckadawoods.

i see no difference of substance whatsoever in today's democrats or reps - both being the interface between wall street criminals and gullible or helpless masses.

>>the reason why you don’t seem to have a "real" alternative that would suit you is because no one supports it besides you and a few fruit cakes.>>:

really? what a well-argued assertion indeed...

have you taken a poll?

i hereby withdraw all residual respect for you as being any different from your paid-shill colleagues in not using ad hominem devices.

but your baseless insults do nothing but backfire in your face.

>>does VAT in Britain count as tax that deserves representation?>>:

1.many countries have arrangements for refunding vat

2.comparing a few bucks you might contribute to england on a trip with the large sums a tax-paying alien contributes to the us by slaving all his life is not only ludicrous and preposterous but also offensive.

such talk woulda gotten you hanged in 1776.

>>but you can't have "bob the NAZI" getting equal time with the democratic party just because one person supports him. >>:

democracy is NOT about majority power - were it so,hitler would have been a democratic leader because he got elected more or less by a relative majority.

no,democracy is precisely about giving equal airtime to minorities,in order to give em a chance to become in their turn majority at the next elections.

bob the nazi has as much of a right to equal air time as his colleague bush or me or you.

and then let the people cast their vote and decide.

democracy is precisely about that one person who supports bob the nazi or scottie the mole - even on the level of pure logic,noone can say for sure whether a majority is more right than the minority - the relative majority of germans that elected hitler in 1933 was more wrong than all other minority parties.

or maybe you'd disagree?...

logic tells us that one single person might be right where one million were wrong.

>>let voters choose among all candidates, but invalidate any election that fails to get out at least 50% +1 of the electorate - we want democracy not oligarchy

- what if that results in you never getting a government? >>:

then ask the majority who hasn't voted why they abstained,and they'll tell us the way out of the doldrums - not the 14,5% fucked up nazi pigs who now rule cali thru an SS groper.

..that a truly democratic system with par condicio and no lobbying would not fail to get out the vote - as the scheindemokratie we're livin' in obviously fails to do.

sure they may be arbitrary - but that's a matter for psychologists to assess maybe not for laymen as me or you.

18 sounds pretty fair to me from life experience.

>>hmm sounds like it might get easy to cheat the system if there is no voter registration.>>:

why?

>>- your average person (or any person for that matter) cannot consider all possible opinions and make and informed choice. The more choice you give them the worse their final decision will be.>>:

another baseless assertion.

there are dozens if not hundreds of car brands and typer on the merket,and it seems that the average person is perfectly able to choose what they want.

moreover i don't see from experience that at any given time in history there's been millions of radically different political programs competing at the same time,so your assertion is abstract at best.

>>since there are more "stupid" ways to look at something than there are correct ways then stupid ideas will get more air time. >>:

unsubstantiated allegation.

>>there is a certain argument for weighting time towards those who would know and care about an issue. for example the nthern Ireland issue is most important to the Irish so their opinion on the issue is a bit more important than that of your average Indian even though there are almost a billion more Indians.>>:

this is not ad rem - we're talkin' about general elections with general poiotical programs in any given nation - indians don't vote in ireland or the us.

moreover,logic tells us that an indian might have gotten interested in northern ireland and,with a fresh perspective,figured out a way to end the bloodshed .

i think true democracy is not about interest groups - i think for true democracy the only interest groups that really counts is the entire humanity - and especially the oppressed part of it.

i don't see a party representing only southern cali strawberry growers vying for a presidential election - but if they so wished,they'd get equal airtime as anyone else provided they are able to formulate a program not just about strawberries but about progress for all 300 million us inhabitants.

and the people alone - it's up to them to watch all the par condicio,take part in it if they so wish,and choose .

choose a majority for 4 or 5 years and guard against this majority overruling the par condicio rights of the minority during those 4 or 5 years.

guard against democracy not sliding back into...today's us.

Afrian, or should I call you the obsessive spammer.

You do realize that you spent a full hour posting 16 posts, with no responses, one after another.

You are obviously getting paid to come here and clog up the board.

16 unanswered posts.

>>You are obviously getting paid to come here and clog up the board.

16 unanswered posts.>>:

actually,my posts were replies to your colleague or alternick scottie's baseless assertions above.

if he or anyone else hasn't counterreplies it's not my fault.

as for me getting paid,provide arguments or fuck off.

it's ludicrous to be accused by a busharon nazi shill who's been spamming la on behalf of criminal pigs for years to accuse ME of being paid !!!

i wish i were being paid by the way for it costs money.

but will you please tell us who in the world would sponsor ideas such as mine?

thanx asshole.

whereas it's all too clear to anyone reading la who's behind YOUR self-multiplied stalking,you blowjobber.

if not,just fuck off.

"but will you please tell us who in the world would sponsor ideas such as mine?"

Any right wing organization. Freerepublic for one.

Your views are so assinine and such a parody of leftist gibberish that you've obviously been sent here to make the left look ridiculous.

Fine with me, but you're technique is a bit ham-fisted.

>>Your views are so assinine and such a parody of leftist gibberish>>:

because you ass don't even know how to spell english - asinine not assinine you dumbass.

and:so much evidence for your false accusations...

typical indy rightwing mole...

i'm crazy in love fresco,i'm hot,i'm da baddest babe you ever welcomed up your ass...cmon...now...oh yeah...

"because you ass don't even know how to spell english "

You didn't actually just post that did you?

"spell English"?!?

"you ass"?!?

ROFL!

you filed this false spelling violation?
May I see your license?
Please take it out first. Stand by, I think we have a list of your violations, unpaid, for two years.....
Your mistake. We've been looking for you.
You should have called in the typo police.

"as for me getting paid,provide arguments or fuck off."

"whereas it's all too clear to anyone reading la who's behind YOUR self-multiplied stalking,you blowjobber."

Childish profanity aside ("Oooh! Look at me! I typed DIRTY WORDS on the INTERNET!"), can anyone see the incredible hypocrisy evident in these two statements?

I know adrain can't.

>> not in a blocked,no-alternative,no-par-condicio ttotalinarianism like the us or the rest of the west and the world for that matter.

- they are refusing to make a small improvement because you want a large improvement.. how dumb is that?

>> politics in the us are limited by antidemocratic factors like banning communists,big business support,massmedia muzzling and monopoly.

- comunism is an undemocratic factor - anyway the key aspect of democracy is the long term protection of rights and representation not an ends in itself. You want to protect agaisnt sliding back into US democracy but not stalinist comunism hmmm...

>> percentages are in dispute,but were it as you said,it would have made a helluva lot of difference in a narrowly contested election.

- but you said that it doesnt matter because the parties are the same. If you want another system then go throught the system and change it. Im fine with state based democracy becoming a more pue democracy etc etc. In the end it will result in jsut a minor shift of both parties.

>> not at all:in florida for instance,most people maliciously scrapped from the rolls were blacks who are known to vote democrat in that neckadawoods.

- That is irrelevant. what is relevant is if this scrapping constituted a breach of the system. If so ok, I dunno, I was supporting gore.

>> have you taken a poll?

Dont you have some far left party over there in the US? Those greenies with nader or somthing?

> 1.many countries have arrangements for refunding vat

A) morons
B) just an example

>> 2.comparing a few bucks you might contribute to england on a trip with the large sums a tax-paying alien contributes to the us by slaving all his life is not only ludicrous and preposterous but also offensive.

Its just an example. besides it would be easy for a rich person to pay more VAT than the alien could pay.

>> no,democracy is precisely about giving equal airtime to minorities,in order to give em a chance to become in their turn majority at the next elections.

-everyone is a minority of one. arbitrarily dividing them into groups is the job of the anti social politician.

>> bob the nazi has as much of a right to equal air time as his colleague bush or me or you.

- hmmm lucky bob as long as your system can stand it.

> even on the level of pure logic,noone can say for sure whether a majority is more right than the minority - the relative majority of germans that elected hitler in 1933 was more wrong than all other minority parties.
or maybe you'd disagree?...

- Yes a majority isnt always smarter than a minority but you do need a system for reducing the number of ideas that are given equal weight otherwise people will stop making decisions based on important issues and just become confused and make it on instinctive things like looks.

>> then ask the majority who hasn't voted why they abstained,and they'll tell us the way out of the doldrums - not the 14,5% fucked up nazi pigs who now rule cali thru an SS groper.

- They will tell you for the most part because they couldnt be stuffed going to the polling booth or they were too busy. how are you going to use that information?

>18 sounds pretty fair to me from life experience.

If its a psychology question maybe you need a test to determine if a person is good enough to vote?

>>hmm sounds like it might get easy to cheat the system if there is no voter registration.>>:
why?

If you wanted to cheat that system how would you do it? I can think of some ways but then again Im not sure what protections against that you have in mind. If you can make the system work then I think its good it reduces some beurocracy. Most systems will alow a fairly good database to be built up.

>> another baseless assertion.

No it isnt your head big as it is cant hold an infinite amount of information. you are suggesting 250 million odd people get equal air time minus all the people who abdicate their rights.

there are dozens if not hundreds of car brands and typer on the merket,and it seems that the average person is perfectly able to choose what they want.

- If you havent noticed they A) rarely make good decisions on those things unless they have already reduced their options down to a couple of types and B) they generally care at the time of decision what car they have more than what government rules them.
and C) trying out a NAZI "car" could well be a one way trip. one bad decision totally wipes out your system.

>>since there are more "stupid" ways to look at something than there are correct ways then stupid ideas will get more air time. >>:unsubstantiated allegation.

- OK lets make it simple.. 1+1 = now how nmany correct answers are ther and how many wrong answers are there? If you ask a million people some will get it wrong and they will get it wrong in all sorts of interesting ways.

>> this is not ad rem - we're talkin' about general elections with general poiotical programs in any given nation - indians don't vote in ireland or the us.

- it is jsut an example Im sure you can extrapolate it. besides can you imagine an election that was so individual based that it came down to each issue that was important to each person and that would probably be a local issue.

>> moreover,logic tells us that an indian might have gotten interested in northern ireland and,with a fresh perspective,figured out a way to end the bloodshed .

- possible and good on him for telling people but puting the decision to a vote in india would still probably be a bad idea.

>> i don't see a party representing only southern cali strawberry growers vying for a presidential election - but if they so wished,they'd get equal airtime as anyone else provided they are able to formulate a program not just about strawberries but about progress for all 300 million us inhabitants.

- how are you going to decide that? Again your promoting some one to a sort of a undercover despot position.

of the new hampshire gazette,for finally bringing up the bushes' nazi ties from the net underground to some sort of overground.

you risked your life it is told - and now pigs all around you are supposed to be protecting you...
couldn't get any worse.

i sure wish to express to you all of my solidarity but - i know it'll do little to relieve you from your present misery.

see mr buchanan - what are we antinazis really up to?
what are we risking our lives for and - does it make any practical sense?

how many martyrs have we already had?

thousands of afghanis,iraqis,people of many different nationalities on 911,countless WW2 dead because of the bushes and their accomplices.

it is high time to rethink our strategies mr buchanan.
die a martyr if you so wish - maybe i'll follw suit in a short while,for i've had my share of death theats too.

but - are we fighting a common enemy for a common goal?

my goal is worldwide economic equality and the abolishment of nations.

what's yours?

and:i intend to fight for my political objective by all means necessary - in legitimate defense .

are you among the naives who think an article or 2 will bring down world imperialism?

anyway you are a man of courage,mr buchanan - if all i've read about you is true.

my respect.i'm doing what i can to spread awareness of your case.

but it was pascal - certainly not a commie - who said that there is no justice without the sword.

the word and the sword - either is powerless without the other.

"you risked your life it is told - and now pigs all around you are supposed to be protecting you..."

You actually *believe* this nut has to have police protection for printing his story? You're as looney as he is.

without wall street there would have been no hitler,no german rearmement,no WW2,no holocaust.

hitler was just the puppet.
his paymasters were in new york city,and they were both christians and jews.

here's how antony c sutton in his 1976 study wall street and the rise of hitler details wall street's funding of german cartel construction:

>>German Cartel Wall Street
Syndicate Amount Issued
Allgemeine
Elektrizitats-
Gesellschaft (A.E.G.)
(German General
Electric) National City
Co. $35,000,000
Vereinigte Stahlwerke
(United Steelworks) Dillon, Read &
Co. $70,225,000
American I.G.
Chemical (I.G.
Farben) National City
Co. $30,000,000 >>


guess who directed the board of america IG farben - the jewish american magnate paul warburg...

jew gasses jews.

or better:

plutochrat sucks the blood of the poor.

actually,maybe a better term to define judeonazis is judeoplutochrat s- but since we're talking here about both jewish and christian magnates in the us who financed and thus created hitler and the nazis,even apter is the term judeochristoplutochrats - the bushes,the warburgs,etc.

now for 58 years judeochristoplutochratic propaganda has been brainwashing the planet starting with school with a pack of lies:

for instance,the dichotomy evil germans versus good jews - it's the concept of collective guilt which was imposed on germany as a race.

a concept by which germans are still paying war reparations to israel after 58 years!!!!!!!!!

but it is indeed a false and racist mystification of history via baseless generalization of the sort of goldhagen's willing executioners bullcrap:

1.at the last elections held in germany in 1933 hitler only got about 40% or less of the votes - dreadful state terror before and during the election notwithstanding -
therefore we may mathematically conclude that 60% that is the MAJORITY of germans were NOT nazis and were NOT responsible for the rise of hitler and for the holocaust - which makes the judeochristoplutochratic concept of collective guilt and its economic implications NULL AND VOID.

2.seldom remembered martyrs of german antinazi resistance like the weisse rose bonhoeffer von stauffenberg etc also render the concept of collective guilt and its economic implications NULL AND VOID.

another huge lie with huge economic implications is the greatest and most effective judeochristoplutochratic lie of all - the mother of all lies:

the 6-million-dead- jews lie.

victors' history has been brainwashing us for 58 years with the infamous lie that 6 million jews were murdered in the holocaust - when in fact the yad vashem institute in jerusalem - the only archive in the world known to have a complete documented filing for jewish holocaust victims - is said to have 3 million names - a half.

and i say is said to have because i could in no way independently verify this 3 million total,not even on yad vashem's web site which uses a format i don't have.

actually i used to remember an even lower total from an article by a jewish reporter who'd visited vashem in jerusalem a few years ago.

but in any way the 6 million lie is what it is:

a colossal imposture for speculative purposes,both financial and geopolitical.

i'll discuss such montruous purposes shortly.

Ladies and Gentlemen, meet adrian more, brought to you courtesy of the National Alliance.

the 6-million lie was carefully fabricated by judeochristonazi pseudohistorians in order to assert a moral primacy for jewish victims of the holocaust as opposed to say russian or polish or communist or gypsy victims:

because considering the other dogmatic estimate of 11 million jews present in the areas subjected to the holocaust in 1939 plus the final dogma of 5 million jews left on may 9,1945 in those same areas - god only knows how these counts were made - what we get is not only the 6-million lie,BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY THE FALSE CERTAINTY THAT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF JEWS WAS MURDERERD BY THE NAZIS THAN SAY OF POLES RUSSIANS OR ANY OTHER GIVEN ETHNIC OR WHATEVER GROUP GENOCIDED IN THE HOLOCAUST.

therefore jews have become the "chosen" people with moral primacy - the people no one has the right to even slightly criticize because who could be as monstruous as to syndicate what the jews are doing to the palestinians when compared to the colossally superior suffering jews endured in WW2.

therefore the 6-million myth has become a cornerstone of massmurderous sionist policy for 58 years down to the present day.

again from the great 1976 study by antony c sutton,wall street and the rise of hitler,mostly available online at:

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/

>>Moreover, American assistance to Nazi war efforts extended into other areas.17 The two largest tank producers in Hitler's Germany were Opel, a wholly owned subsidiary of General Motors (controlled by the J.P. Morgan firm), and the Ford A. G. subsidiary of the Ford Motor Company of Detroit. The Nazis granted tax-exempt status to Opel in 1936, to enable General Motors to expand its production facilities. General Motors obligingly reinvested the resulting profits into German industry. Henry Ford was decorated by the Nazis for his services to Naziism. (See p. 93.) Alcoa and Dow Chemical worked closely with Nazi industry with numerous transfers of their domestic U.S. technology. Bendix Aviation, in which the J.P. Morgan-controlled General Motors firm had a major stock interest, supplied Siemens & Halske A. G. in Germany with data on automatic pilots and aircraft instruments. As late as 1940, in the "unofficial war," Bendix Aviation supplied complete technical data to Robert Bosch for aircraft and diesel engine starters and received royalty payments in return.>>:

no mr ford,no holocaust.

now hitler sure was a beast but - who's more responsible?

the puppet or his puppet masters?

"no mr ford,no holocaust."

The paragraph you posted has nothing to do with your claim.

Is that the closest thing you could find to back up your ridiculous assertion? Dude...give it up.

"now hitler sure was a beast..."

Did it hurt to say that?

..."who's more responsible?

the puppet or his puppet masters?"

Sure, Hitler never had an original idea. There he was, minding his own business, when the powers-that-be thrust him onto the world stage and insisted he try to kill as many Jews as he could...so the shadow people could sell starters.

Could you GET any more ridiculous?

Your cue, adrain...post 7 replies to my one post.

"Could you GET any more ridiculous? "


My money is on "yes he can".

>>"no mr ford,no holocaust."

The paragraph you posted has nothing to do with your claim. >>:

sure it does:

if wall street from the bushes to ford etc hadn't financed hitler's rise to power in the first place and subsequently his rearmement and done business with him throughout the 30ies and well into WW2,there would have been no nazis and thus no holocaust.

get outa here narcoholic shill.

notice reader please how the shill usually comes in typical nonanarchist/fresca duplication within minutes - could it be that it's one and the same person?

If it makes you less afraid to think we're all just one person, go right ahead.

For a complete indepth version of the Bush-Nazi funding read the following site:
http://www.john-loftus.com/Thyssen.asp

Adrian's story about John Buchanan is just the tip of the iceburg. This is a very old, ugly, complicated story which I have been following for a flong long time. Friends in Europe worked at the banks where all these deals were originally made starting in 1924. To jump on Buchanan this many years later makes no sense.

This _real story_ is that this information is seeing the light of day during an election year. It is an expose of the Bush clans modus operandi going back many years. Pattern recognition anyone?

What 's important in this discussion is to keep digging... to continue following Bushco's paper trail; un-cover all the dead bodies, and get to the many documents that Bushco has been hiding from the public for too long. A smart person never follows any leader blindly, regardless of their politics.

Calling someone a Nazi is just a way to end a discussion. It is not a good use of one's time or resources.

More on Bush family values:
http://www.newtopiamagazine.net/issues/v2issue3/features/bushempire.shtml

> but it was pascal - certainly not a commie - who said that there is no justice without the sword.

- what else would pascal say about what you have written here ? Basically he would tell you your a fool so its funny that you would quote him.

> without wall street there would have been no hitler,no german rearmement,no WW2,no holocaust.

- it is lucky that before Wall street there was no war and no violence. Oh wait a minute there was.. forget that.

> hitler was just the puppet. his paymasters were in new york city,and they were both christians and jews.

- paymasters eh hmm when Im the most powerful man on earth Ill make sure I get some of those too.

> jew gasses jews.

this was just so good I had to quote it again.
Amongst the possible stupid implications there are
"i can draw a very convoluted line back to a jew so thats cool"
"its ok to kill your own people case closed"
"collective responsibility for jews because a jew might vaguely be assocaited with killing jews" (moron there would be much more direct examples than this)
Come on what moronic implication are you trying to make?

> collective guilt

You take an unlooseable argument and somehow manage to screw it up.. now how did you do that?

> the 6-million-dead- jews lie.

-It is bait.
-Everytime we see some one pick it up we know the process of thought that would lead them to being that type of person. normal peopel would either not concernthemselves with eactly how many people were killed, not look for ways to reduce that number or not bring it up in conversation (as if some arbitrary number like 3 million people dying would somehow make hitler a good guy).
It says alot about you.

> BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY THE FALSE CERTAINTY THAT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF JEWS WAS MURDERERD BY THE NAZIS THAN SAY OF POLES RUSSIANS OR ANY OTHER GIVEN ETHNIC OR WHATEVER GROUP GENOCIDED IN THE HOLOCAUST.

- Are you aware of the NAZI party charter and what they stood for and what they said after they got power? I see a desperate attempt to accept any evidence that might agree with your point no-matter how pathetically.

>>Moreover, American assistance to Nazi war efforts extended into other areas.

- It is a sign of the world today that basically everyone supports everyone else in some way and everyone also opposes everyone else in another way.
Besides until germany actually started war (actually well after) firms did not as a matter of fact know that germany was planning on killing jews. Maybe Hitler would have turned out to be a good buffer for communism.

>> if wall street from the bushes to ford etc hadn't financed hitler's rise to power in the first place and subsequently his rearmement and done business with him throughout the 30ies and well into WW2,there would have been no nazis and thus no holocaust.

- it was the states job to stop him. bloody isolationists and chicken liberals who are the firms elected representitives on these sort of issues. no individual or even organized group of firms could have stopped hitler. besides the conclusion is only relevant to the formation of the nazi party at which point they would have needed psycic abilities to know they would cause a holocaust or even have any sort of ability to take on the surrounding countries (even though they were obviously not nice fellows). AND did the american companies cripple the soviet union by not doing business with them eh??
maybe your theory has a massive hole in it?

>>Besides until germany actually started war (actually well after) firms did not as a matter of fact know that germany was planning on killing jews.>>:

as if mein kampf hadn't sold 10 million copies in the thirties

as if kristall nacht never happened

quite a denier,our wall street lawyer...

>>no individual or even organized group of firms could have stopped hitler.>>:

hitler without money?

auschwitz trains without IBM punchcards?

wehrmacht without ford motors?

und so weiter und so fort...

again from the wonderful antony c sutton book wall street and the rise of hitler:

>>On the eve of World War II the German chemical complex of I.G. Farben was the largest chemical manufacturing enterprise in the world, with extraordinary political and economic power and influence within the Hitlerian Nazi state. I. G. has been aptly described as "a state within a state."

The Farben cartel dated from 1925, when organizing genius Hermann Schmitz (with Wall Street financial assistance) created the super-giant chemical enterprise out of six already giant German chemical companies — Badische Anilin, Bayer, Agfa, Hoechst, Weiler-ter-Meer, and Griesheim-Elektron. These companies were merged to become Inter-nationale Gesellschaft Farbenindustrie A.G. — or I.G. Farben for short. Twenty years later the same Hermann Schmitz was put on trial at Nuremburg for war crimes committed by the I. G. cartel. Other I. G. Farben directors were placed on trial but the American affiliates of I. G. Farben and the American directors of I. G. itself were quietly forgotten; the truth was buried in the archives.

It is these U.S. connections in Wall Street that concern us. Without the capital supplied by Wall Street, there would have been no I. G. Farben in the first place and almost certainly no Adolf Hitler and World War II.>>:

and let us remember who the us director for us IG farben was:the jewish magnate paul warburg - jew gasses jews...

or better said:rich pig gasses the poor,for the rich capitalist's pig's only religion is money.

Man, you Marxist wackos are really brainwashed, aren't you?

Too bad.

But there may be hope for you yet.

All you have to do is grow up.

Here's your problem there adrian.

Seeing as how it's common knowledge that as a communist (how embarrassing) you must loathe all things wallstreet, yet, on the other hand, you've made it clear that you loathe Jews as well, it would seem that your conspiracy theory puts you at odds with yourself.

So which is it? Who do you despise more?

Wallstreet or Jews?

Everybody knows the filthy JOOOOS own Wall Street!

So our little Red Menace isn't conflicted at all.

again from antony c sutton's marvellous wall street and the rise of hitler:

>>CHAPTER TWO

The Empire of I.G. Farben


Farben was Hitler and Hitler was Farben. (Senator Homer T. Bone to Senate Committee on Military Affairs, June 4, 1943.)


On the eve of World War II the German chemical complex of I.G. Farben was the largest chemical manufacturing enterprise in the world, with extraordinary political and economic power and influence within the Hitlerian Nazi state. I. G. has been aptly described as "a state within a state."

The Farben cartel dated from 1925, when organizing genius Hermann Schmitz (with Wall Street financial assistance) created the super-giant chemical enterprise out of six already giant German chemical companies — Badische Anilin, Bayer, Agfa, Hoechst, Weiler-ter-Meer, and Griesheim-Elektron. These companies were merged to become Inter-nationale Gesellschaft Farbenindustrie A.G. — or I.G. Farben for short. Twenty years later the same Hermann Schmitz was put on trial at Nuremburg for war crimes committed by the I. G. cartel. Other I. G. Farben directors were placed on trial but the American affiliates of I. G. Farben and the American directors of I. G. itself were quietly forgotten; the truth was buried in the archives.

It is these U.S. connections in Wall Street that concern us. Without the capital supplied by Wall Street, there would have been no I. G. Farben in the first place and almost certainly no Adolf Hitler and World War II.

German bankers on the Farben Aufsichsrat (the supervisory Board of Directors)1 in the late 1920s included the Hamburg banker Max War-burg, whose brother Paul Warburg was a founder of the Federal Reserve System in the United States. Not coincidentally, Paul Warburg was also on the board of American I. G., Farben's wholly owned U.S. subsidiary. In addition to Max Warburg and Hermann Schmitz, the guiding hand in the creation of the Farben empire, the early Farben Vorstand included Carl Bosch, Fritz ter Meer, Kurt Oppenheim and George von Schnitzler.2 All except Max Warburg were charged as "war criminals" after World War II.

In 1928 the American holdings of I. G. Farben (i.e., the Bayer Company, General Aniline Works, Agfa Ansco, and Winthrop Chemical Company) were organized into a Swiss holding company, i. G. Chemic (Inter-nationale Gesellschaft fur Chemisehe Unternehmungen A. G.), controlled by I. G. Farben in Germany. In the following year these American firms merged to become American I. G. Chemical Corporation, later renamed General Aniline & Film. Hermann Schmitz, the organizer of I. G. Farben in 1925, became a prominent early Nazi and supporter of Hitler, as well as chairman of the Swiss I. G. Chemic and president of American I. G. The Farben complex both in Germany and the United States then developed into an integral part of the formation and operation of the Nazi state machine, the Wehrmacht and the S.S.

I. G. Farben is of peculiar interest in the formation of the Nazi state because Farben directors materially helped. Hitler and the Nazis to power in 1933. We have photographic evidence (see page 60) that I.G. Farben contributed 400,000 RM to Hitler's political "slush fund." It was this secret fund which financed the Nazi seizure of control in March 1933. Many years earlier Farben had obtained Wall Street funds for the 1925 cartelization and expansion in Germany and $30 million for American I. G. in 1929, and had Wall Street directors on the Farben board. It has to be noted that these funds were raised and directors appointed years before Hitler was promoted as the German dictator.>>:

so again what we see here at work is judeochristonazi war profiteers and holocaust perofiteers dealing and wheelin' with hitler - no wall street,no hitler!

and also notice reader how the german jewish magnate max warburg and his american counterpart paul warburg director of us IG farben were jews:

JEWS GAS JEWS!!!!!!!!!!

OR BETTER SAID:

RICH JEWISH PIGS GAS POOR JEWISH HOLOCAUST VICTIMS.

no warburgs,no hitler.

no warburgs,no holocaust.

no rich jewish and chiristian pigs like bush's grandparents,no holocaust.

now who's more responsible for the holocaust reader:
the puppet hitler who didn't have a penny to start with or his creators ,the bushes the warburgs and wall street?

I told you Dennis the Red Menace wouldn't have a problem tying JOOOS and Wall Street together with a pretty hate ribbon.

He's so predictable!

You know, adrian, I gotta get a copy of The Little Red Book so I can figure out what the hell's wrong with you.

Don't get excited; it won't have a chance of converting me. The Force gives me power over weak minds.

See my 0538 Friday post for proof.

no wall street,no hitler.

no bushes,no WW2.

no jewish warburgs,no holocaust.

continuing with sutton's excellent analysis:

>>The Economic Power of I. G. Farben

Qualified observers have argued that Germany could not have gone to war in 1939 without I. G. Farben. Between 1927 and the beginning of World War II, I.G. Farben doubled in size, an expansion made possible in great part by American technical assistance and by American bond issues, such as the one for $30 million offered by National City Bank. By 1939 I. G. acquired a participation and managerial influence in some 380 other German firms and over 500 foreign firms. The Farben empire owned its own coal mines, its own electric power plants, iron and steel units, banks, research units, and numerous commercial enterprises. There were over 2,000 cartel agreements between I. G. and foreign firms — including Standard Oil of New Jersey, DuPont, Alcoa, Dow Chemical, and others in the United States, The full story of I,G, Farben and its world-wide ae-tivities before World War II can never be known, as key German records were destroyed in 1945 in anticipation of Allied victory. However, one post-war investigation by the U.S, War Department concluded that:

Without I. G.'s immense productive facilities, its intense re. search, and vast international affiliations, Germany's prosecution of the war would have been unthinkable and impossible; Farben not only directed its energies toward arming Germany, but concentrated on weakening her intended victims, and this double-barreled attempt to expand the German industrial potential for war and to restrict that of the rest of the world was not conceived and executed "in the normal course of business." The proof is overwhelming that I. G. Farben officials had full prior knowledge of Germany's plan for world conquest and of each specific aggressive act later undertaken ....3>>:

for 58 long years reader we've been sold the lie that hitler acted alone with the support of the "collectively guilty" germans.

now you and i know better reader:the lie is blown:

it's the wall street and world JUDEOCHRISTONAZI plutocracy that generated hitler and WW2 and the holocaust.

except that jew-gassing jew paul warburg and his german counterpart max were never hanged at nuremberg along with ribbentrop...too bad.

but we won't let it happen again shall we?

YET IT'S HAPPENIN' IN IRAQ ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!

Adrian - You need to go turn yourself in.

There are psychiatric hospitals all over L.A. One of them might be able to help with your paranoia.

Everyone's crazy BUT adrain.

Just ask him.

no wall street,no hitler.

no wall street,no holocaust.

who's more responsible - the puppet or his puppetmasters?

hitler or his financiers,the jew paul warburg and the christonazi bushes?

more from sutton:

>>The process for manufacturing tetra-ethyl lead? essential for aviation gasoline, was obtained by I. G. Farben from the United States, and in 1939 I.G. was sold $20 million of high-grade aviation gasoline by Standard Oil of New Jersey. Even before Germany manufactured tetra-ethyl lead by the American process it was able to "borrow" 500 tons from the Ethyl Corporation. This loan of vital tetra-ethyl lead was not repaid and I.G. forfeited the $1 million security. Further, I.G. purchased large stocks of magnesium from Dow Chemical for incendiary bombs and stockpiled explosives, stabilizers, phosphorus, and cyanides from the outside world.>>:

THE WAAL STREET JUDEOCHRISTONAZIS SUCH AS THE BUSHES AND THE JEW-GASSING JEW PAUL WARBURG ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HOLOCAUST AND FOR ALL WW2 DEATHS,ALONGSIDE THEIR GERMAN COLLEAGUES AND PUPPETS.

You're a nut!

I realize this is not a rebuttal to your argument, yet I just had to make this observation.

Carry on.

who was producing auschwitz's lethal zyclon b gas used for the holocaust of millions?

IG farben,the main financial and industrial powerhouse behind hitler's rise to power and holocaust:

sutton again:

>>In 1939, out of 43 major products manufactured by I.G., 28 were of "primary concern" to the German armed forces. Farben's ultimate control of the German war economy, acquired during the 1920s and 1930s with Wall Street assistance, can best be assessed by examining the percentage of German war material output produced by Farben plants in 1945. Farben at that time produced 100 percent of German synthetic rubber, 95 percent of German poison gas (including all the Zyklon B gas used in the concentration camps), 90 percent of German plastics, 88 percent of German magnesium, 84 percent of German explosives, 70 percent of German gunpowder, 46 percent of German high octane (aviation) gasoline, and 33 percent of German synthetic gasoline.5 (See Chart 2-1 and Table 2-1.)>>:

and who was on the board of us Ig farben?

the american jewish magnate paul warburg.

jew gasses jew.

no judeochristonazi financial support for hitler,no holocaust.

capitalist massmurdering pigs gas their fellow poor kin.

just like 911 massmurderer bush - nephew of hitler -creator grandparents- knocked off 3000 americans.

"JEWS GAS JEWS!!!!!!!!!!

OR BETTER SAID:

RICH JEWISH PIGS GAS POOR JEWISH HOLOCAUST VICTIMS.
"

I think that'll clear up any lingering doubt about adrian's hatred of Jews.

By the way Nonanarchist.

Good call.

Right on the nailhead.

Still though, it makes you wonder why he cares at all, since whatever or whoever it takes to kill Jews is fine with him.

With all that "evil Jews killing dirty Jews" stuff, that must be why he keeps refferring to that book as "
marvelous", "great", "wonderful", "beuatiful" and "excellent".

What a fruit.

He probably rollerblades too.

judeochristonazi history has the pennyless hitler engineering world wars and holocaust of millions - now we know better:

no wall street financial backing,no hitler,no holocaust.

again from sutton's book:

>>One of the more horrifying aspects of I.G. Farben's cartel was the invention, production, and distribution of the Zyklon B gas, used in Nazi concentration camps. Zyklon B was pure Prussic acid, a lethal poison produced by I.G. Farben Leverkusen and sold from the Bayer sales office through Degesch, an independent license holder. Sales of Zyklon B amounted to almost three-quarters of Degesch business; enough gas to kill 200 million humans was produced and sold by I.G. Farben. The Kilgore Committee report of 1942 makes it clear that the I.G. Farben directors had precise knowledge of the Nazi concentration camps and the use of I.G. chemicals. This prior knowledge becomes significant when we later consider the role of the American directors in I.G.'s American subsidiary>>:

among whom there was the jewish magnate paul warburg,while his german jewish counterpart max ran the german side of this bloodthirsty biz - making millions out of the gassing of millions.

capitalist pigs created hitler - hitler was their puppet,and the real culprits were not hanged at nuremberg as they ought to have been - guess why...:

always ask yourself reader the brechtian questions:

who payed for WW2?

who payed for hitler's rise to power?

who payed for - and reaped the most profits for - the holocaust?

now you know the answer reader.

and you know where the power of current unpresident state terrorist bush comes from...

JEWS GAS JEWS!!!!!!!!!!

OR BETTER SAID:

RICH JEWISH PIGS GAS POOR JEWISH HOLOCAUST VICTIMS.
"

I think that'll clear up any lingering doubt about adrian's hatred of Jews.

And the scary thing?

As a Marxist, he want to do the same thing to everyone who disagrees with him, too.

Not that he'll EVER get the chance...

keep in mind reader:

it's NOT germans versus jews - it's rich capitalist pigs who created hitler to profit from WW2 and the holocaust.

just like sharon created hamas to profit from endless war.

germans versus jews,collective guilt...marx's superstructures,dust chucked into the people's eyes...

you know better now reader.

A) your connections are pretty weak at best. and even if they were strong connections all they would show is that there was a bad jewish person in the world (wow congradulations!). We already knew that.

Making special note of a jewish person who in some convoluted way assisted to kill jews is really jsut a sort of racism as in why do you note the jew in particular? were there not other board memmbers? other incidents? but somehow you imply it was the jews work ahah.

...in the scary, hate-filled pit that adrian is using instead of a brain, one bad Jew is an indictment of the entire Jewish faith...and the Christian faith by extension.

Yet what escapes his notice is that religion is responsible for more good than all the Marxists in the world...multiplied.

who ought to have been hanged at nuremberg but weren't:again from sutton's book wall street and the rise of hitler,1976:

>>The Berlin N.W. 7 office of I.G. Farben was the key Nazi overseas espionage center. The unit operated under Farben director Max Ilgner, nephew of I.G. Farben president Hermann Schmitz. Max Ilgner and Hermann Schmitz were on the board of American I.G., with fellow directors Henry Ford of Ford Motor Company, Paul Warburg of Bank of Manhattan, and Charles E. Mitchell of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.>>:

notice reader the us collaborators of the german nazis:

henry ford - a christonazi,who kept on building up the german war machine well into WW2,killing hundreds of thousands of us soldiers in the process:

why wasn't henry ford hanged at nuremberg?
no henry fords,no WW2 and no holocaust.

-the us jew paul warburg,a jew-gassing jew just like his german counterpart max warburg -

why weren't paul warburg and max warburg hanged at nuremberg,their assets seized and donated to holocaust victims?

-the christonazi charles mitchell - why wasn't he hanged at nuremberg alongside with ribbentropp?

no wall street judeochristonazis,no WW2 and no holocaust.

so there you have a few examples of war criminals against humanity:

the judeochristonazis from the us henry ford,paul warburg.charles mitchell.

why isn't the adl filing a class action law suit against the descendants of those massmurderers?

why is wall street untouchable for the adl?

why wasn't henry ford hanged at nuremberg?

- if you hung everyone who was at least somewhat guilty there would be almost noone left in germany (or austria or most of the other countries in the area). You have to stop the killing somwhere.

> why isn't the adl filing a class action law suit against the descendants of those massmurderers?

Because the only target for such a law suit would be the state (USA) And that is a case they would loose. As you are well aware it is not acceptable to punish the children for the crimes of their grandparents.

>>Charles Ward, a former assistant of the leading Kennedy murder conspiracy theorist, Jim Garrison, described the way this method works as follows: "Garrison drew a conclusion and then organized the facts. And when the facts didn't fit, he liked to say that they'd been changed by the CIA."
care of http://mckinneysucks.blogspot.com/
read it all
just like adrian.. and hex for that matter.

if it's not acceptable to punish children for the sins of their fathers,then why are today's germans still paying reparations to israel?

...have been paying for their fathers' sins for 58 years,so should bush's assets,which originate from holocaust blood,be seized and devolved to holocaust victims relatives.

>> if it's not acceptable to punish children for the sins of their fathers,then why are today's germans still paying reparations to israel?

A) their STATE was responsible for that event not the individuals so the same body (the state) is paying reparations. For example of my government borrows money the next government had to pay it back (generally) but if my dad borrows money I dont have to pay it back.
However when it comes down to it It should have been sorted out, full and final, straight after WWII. However if it is "we feel guilty donations" (which I think it is) then it is not reparations its donations just like the US donates to ethiopia or similar countries when michael jackson has an appeal. So then the answer to "why" is "because they want to"

OK here we go
"The Luxembourg Agreement obligated the West German government to pay three billion German marks to the State of Israel"
They have already paid that back LONG ago. I suggest they vote to stop paying now that they have paid off their initial obligation. Unless they really want to... in which case, hey, they can do whatever they want with their money.

...too for failing to prevent wall street's support of hitler,WW2 and the holocaust.

therefore today's us state should be made to pay.

and the corps like IBM,FORD etc just like their german counterparts have been made to pay.

>>They have already paid that back LONG ago. >>:

source?

notice reader how the adl or equivalent jewish body NEVER files a class action law suit on behalf of holocaust victims against us corps who aided and profited from hitler WW2 and the holocaust,like IBM FORD etc -

could it be that the adl cares more about its wall street paymasters than about justice for holocaust survivors?

"notice reader how the adl ... NEVER files a class action law suit on behalf of holocaust victims against us corps who aided and profited from hitler WW2 and the holocaust,like IBM FORD etc -"

Why should they? We've got the ACLU for ridiculous and frivolous lawsuits such as that!

law suits against germany or switzerland are ok while law suits against IBM aren't?

the only ridiculous thing here is you "max".

"law suits against germany or switzerland are ok while law suits against IBM aren't?"

Yeah. That's exactly what I said.


Which part did you not understand.


idiot.

there's no logic to your obvious bullcrap,assmole.

Yo momma is illogical, Mr. Spock, you half-breed Vulcan twit.


Obviously you didn't read what I wrote. Try going back and sounding out the words...

>>They have already paid that back LONG ago. >>:

source?

- take "amount they owed" and subtract "amount they paid" geezz do I have to do everything for you?
If you want to look up the original agreement do it yourself, it is a famous enough document.

- I sugest before you open your fat mouth next time you do your research.

>> notice reader how the adl or equivalent Jewish body NEVER files a class action law suit on behalf of holocaust victims against us corps who aided and profited from Hitler WW2 and the holocaust, like IBM FORD etc -

How would you construct such a case using points of law? Just for starters they would probably need to prove that the company could reasonably have known its actions would have negative effects to Jews since they were not aware of the holocaust something the majority of the US did not accept as fact until they entered the war
You could say well if anyone declares war on England then they are the enemy of the world and the US should not do business with them but I don’t think you want to say that.
The next problem is a policy issue. If you can take the money of someone who was someone who did business with someone who in the future would be found to have committed a crime then you could be charged for doing business with a murderer a few years ago that you had no possibility of knowing about. the court would say "he was ugly and he had a bad attitude so Adrian should have known he was funding a murderer!!"
That and your case is getting kind of old unless you have a specific piece of money that you are interested in retrieving. There are lots of old companies you could sue for slavery crimes or whatever and you would have a much better case.

Now if you have a stronger argument such as that IBM knowingly funded and owned a gas chamber or hand picked who died or something then we might have a law suit.

this is an easy case against the state of Germany and an impossible one against most US corps. basically the reason they don’t apply for that action is that they would loose on multiple grounds.

> could it be that the adl cares more about its wall street paymasters than about justice for holocaust survivors?

No they just don’t want to start frivolous lawsuits

> law suits against Germany or Switzerland are ok while law suits against IBM aren't?

If they cant be won, yeah...

Anarchy is their goal and martial law is their design. Who will it be Kerry or Bush? Who will it be, us or them?

The LA VA is doing forced experiments and subversive procedures. The National Treasury Employees Union is their tool and their premise. Dump the NTEU...Take a look at the website.

Some of my ancestors fled Europe for what? More of this Shee-it? Tick Tock Gotta Rock, Four Five Take a Dive, Six Seven America's No heaven, Eight Nine Bush Sr. is the devils behind, Ten Eleven Goin to Heaven...Abroad Baby

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/democracyordeath/