I'm gonna repost a quote by Thomas Sowell.

Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it.

And, I have another quote that I read somewhere but don't know who made it originally.

Socialists believe that the only reason socialism has never worked is because the right people haven't been in charge and enough money has not been thrown at it.

And don't ask me which socialist said that it hasn't worked because the right people haven't been in charge. It is obvious to the most casual observer. Why else, in spite of blatant failures of socialism such as the USSR and all the Warsaw pact nations, do we still have people who want to try to implement socialism? It just flat doesn't work!

I've been to Russia. It is a country with vast natural resources including lots of oil. It should be one of the richest nations on earth. Seventy years of socialism turned it into a basket case. On our tour, we had Russians begging us "rich" Americans for money. And when we were leaving the country, the security guards were holding up members of our tour for a "departure tax" on souvenirs. When some members of our tour griped about it they were told that "You rich Americans can afford it!"

This was a country that we were at war with for forty years. The Soviet Union went bankrupt trying to keep up with us. Capitalism triumphed over socialism. Yet we still have people, in spite of the very obvious failure of socialism, who think they can make it work. Amazing!

Here is a list of the California members of the House of Representatives who are also members of the Democratic Socialists of America:



Rep Lynn C Woolsey (CA-06)

Rep George Miller (CA-07)

Rep Nancy Pelosi (CA-08)

Rep Fortney "Pete" Stark (CA-13)

Rep Henry A. Waxman (CA-29)

Rep Xavier Becerra (CA-30)

Rep Julian C. Dixon (CA-32)

Rep Esteban Edward Torres (CA-34)

Rep Maxine Waters (CA-35)

Rep George E. Brown (CA-42)

Rep Bob Filner (CA-50)



That's eleven menbers of the California delegation to the House. I think California has 45 House members. That means 1/4 of the California delegation are avowed socialists. 1/4! 25%! Is it any wonder that California is going down the drain?

When Arnold gets elected next week, I'm sure he's gonna clean house on those Communist, Socialist and Liberal leaders that have demolished the economic foundation of California.

First the Soviet Union bankrupts itself, then California.

Just more evidence that Socialism is a flawed concept...

to you two pinheads that none of these people are "running California." They are members of the U.S. Congress in Washington, DC. I'd also like to point out the California's fiscal crisis was caused by the deregulation of the electricity industry and profiteering by corporations - two problems that right wingers are not famous for addressing. Or perhaps you think that the economic disaster was caused by massive aid to the homeless.

Nice freaking disclaimer. You idiots have an answer for everything.

Riddle me this, Batman:

Why is this overthrow occuring in the (indisputably) most politically liberal state in the entire Union?

Are you claiming that deregulation of the electricity industry and profiteering by corporations has not happened in ANY OTHER state?

The liberals screwed California up. It's a shining beacon for progressive idealogies, isn't it?

What a joke.

California is another failed Communist state...

Have you ever BEEN to California...

...or outside your own backyard, for that matter?

I don't care if you've been to California or not. You have every right to condemn the liberal foolishness of this state. This state is run by a liberal Dem gov, a liberal Dem senate, a liberal Dem house, all the mayors of the major cities are liberal Dems, and the liberal Dems run the city and county councils. But what's their excuse for the budget crisis? The Republicans! The party who hold no majorities anywhere and can enact nothing without garnering Dem support are the ones being blamed by the Party who holds ALL the power. And then when the law is followed for a recall, they scream!! This has been attempted over 30 times in this state, it's the first time it succeeds, and these people are crying. Davis is so desperate he's got his buddies at the LA Times bringing up 11th hour witch-hunts hoping to trash the whole process. These liberals are desperate, they are power-hungry, they are money-hungry, and they are going to do all they can to subvert to will of the people. So yeah. Communist state pretty much sums it up. I call it The People's Communist Hell of California. Feel free to use it.

Yes. It's a terrible place. Disgusting. Beggars all over the place. Trash. Smog. Outrageous gas prices, taxes, everything costs double.

I hate it there. It's much nicer here.

It will soon be known as the Fourth Reich if you and your fascist friends get your way. Is it true that you all have posters of Arnold Schwartzenlhitler hanging in your bedrooms and you salute Arny first thing in the morning and last thing at night?

Well, that's better than "East Korea".

Yeah, you found us out. We all want to relive Nazi Germany. It was, you know, the beginning of recorded world history for liberals and anarchists.

It looks like you will soon get your wish.

Just wait for 4 or 5 days.

Just to add simple fact : there was no real socialism in Russia or any other countries.

Sweden is country most similar to the socialism.

In Russia they tried socialism in 1917 but quickly failed when Russia was attacked. Russia and Lenin won the war but they lost socialism and finish with dictatorship of the party and state bureaucracy. Socialism is when every person has freedom and people are able to control what is happening to them. to their everyday life, and are constantly involved in creating the policy that affect them and not give that right to a party or parties or politicians or a state to that for them.

It is difficult to have socialism in any undeveloped country because it will be attacked by USA (economically, politically etc) and it will finish in permanent war to defend itself . In the war condition you cannot building socialism.

Only right place where the socialism can be achieved is USA.

That in 4 or 5 days we Californians will throw off the yoke of our Socialist overlords, and dance in the streets. It'll be like the fall of the Berlin Wall.

"Only right place where the socialism can be achieved is USA."

Right.

Try it.

Never gonna work, buddy.

More like the burning of the Reichstag.

Or maybe the Beer Hall Putsch.

What would the Left do without Hitler references?

3/4 of their political commentary would be silenced.

And what would the right do without Hitler II, otherwise known as Schwartzengroper? As they say, history repeats itself - the first time is tragedy, the second time is farce. At least I hope that the second time is just a farce, and not another tragedy.

Oh goody. Nice to know the keepers of doom and gloom are still dancing their merry dance. The second coming of Hitler, huh!?! Pass the bong, dude!

conservatives never get tired pointing out flaws in socialism, as if it automatically demonstrates the superiority of capitalism by the sole virtue of being its opposite.

Cheap.

And in America, it's the ONLY game in town.

For the immediate, intermediate, and far future.

To think that anything else is possible is wishful thinking.

I suggest that everyone contemplating a (suicidal) revolution put away the molotov cocktails, get a job, and get successful.

Trouble is, the people who believe in socialism usually believe in perpetual motion, too.

Suckers'll fall for anything.

but they still have the highest per capita rate of REAL foreign aid.

An enlightened society with bueatiful people and a rich culture.

Even with this 'oppressive' taxation, the above mentioned corporations seem to be doing well as you said.

'Socialism is baaaaad'

You are all so goddamned brainwashed after 40 years of propaganda against socialism.

Lenin and Stalin's Russia is NOT socialism

They were ruthless dictators, whose politics looked more like fascism than like communism

Socialism DOES work. In the Netherlands it works, in Sweden it works, in Germany it works. Capitalism DOESN'T work. The best example of this: the USA. Beggars, homeless people, trailer parks, ghettos, a completly ruined economy, that is the USA. Sure, capitalism works for the rich.

It is time Americans free themselves from the republican (and democrat) propaganda and see that it is time for change.

Fortunatly there are some enlightened souls in the USA: Michael Franti, Rage against the Machine, etc. There might still be hope.

You are all so goddamned brainwashed after 40 years of propaganda against socialism.

------No. More like we've seen the damaging effects of mediocrity that socialism brings.

Lenin and Stalin's Russia is NOT socialism

------Close enough. Rather than a despot at the top of a murderous pyramid, socialism, when "benevolent" still upholds the false notion that a few hundred "Enlightened" souls are capable of doing the thinking for an entire nation, whose citizens are then treated like children.

---------Socialism "works" until your "free" health care is too much for the budget to handle, and you're cast off like an empty peanut shell. Why don't you read up on the disaster that is Canada's "free" health care system if you need an example of socialism in (in)action?



Socialism DOES work. In the Netherlands it works, in Sweden it works, in Germany it works. Capitalism DOESN'T work. The best example of this: the USA. Beggars, homeless people, trailer parks, ghettos, a completly ruined economy, that is the USA. Sure, capitalism works for the rich.

-----If capitalism "doesn't" work, why is the USA, even in hard times, an economic powerhouse, with a economic output greater than all of the EU combined?

It is time Americans free themselves from the republican (and democrat) propaganda and see that it is time for change.

------It's time for change all right. Time to change the quasi-socialist republicrat leviathan we have now back into the lean, fat-free government intended by the Constitution.

I can't sleep. I'll just get cranked on indymedia! I'll put my "liberal hat" on for this one.

The system in the US and the ones in Europe are a reformed capitalism. They're both sliding back to plain-old capitalism, though, as they dismantle their welfare systems and implement more "supply side" taxation.

These reforms were brought about because capitalism was failing worldwide, because it didn't adequately protect workers against the various problems of capitalism, including: elderly poverty, child labor, cycles of booms and depressions, and worker rights. (I'm forgetting a bunch I'm sure.)

It was inevitable that a democracy would attempt to vote social welfare for itself. Given the opportunity, it often does. (Which is why the anti-welfare movement needs to craft it's welfare take-backs as "reform" or create deceptive law like the Medicare prescription drug benefit [another welfare take-back]. They also re-word anti-welfare as tax cuts and spending cuts. Could you imagine a "Medicare Benefits Reduction Law" or a "Public Services Cessation Act" ever passing by referendum? Of course not!)

The relative prosperity of America, as well as the fact that we outdo the EU, is probably much due to WW2. WW2 destroyed Europe (and Japan) and gave America the responsibility to rebuild them. The upshot is that American companies made the profits from the reconstruction, and Europe and Japan were, basically, going to lag behind the US for a while. Europe was slowed down by being stuck in a cold war with Russia, and, now, integration with the former Eastern Bloc states is probably a drag as well.

Besides, the EU and Asia are going through a slump. We're probably seeing a lot of investment in America as a result. The dollar was pumped up for a long time, until this last war.

You don't need to be a genius to figure *this* out.

The system in the US and the ones in Europe are a reformed capitalism. They're both sliding back to plain-old capitalism, though, as they dismantle their welfare systems and implement more "supply side" taxation.

These reforms were brought about because capitalism was failing worldwide, because it didn't adequately protect workers against the various problems of capitalism, including: elderly poverty, child labor, cycles of booms and depressions, and worker rights. (I'm forgetting a bunch I'm sure.)

^^^^^^^^ In your first statement, you claim there’s a slide back to “plain” capitalism. The “reformed” capitalism is the real slide. “Plain” capitalism is the most efficient model outside of the black market. The short term gains of coddling those that contribute little by choice or by circumstance become a larger and larger drain on the producers of wealth. The inevitable result is a corral of animals perfectly capable of walking on their own, being towed by unfortunate oxen. Only someone with little understanding of the long-term effects of overregulation and the inefficiency and corruption of Big Government would want more of it.

It was inevitable that a democracy would attempt to vote social welfare for itself. Given the opportunity, it often does. (Which is why the anti-welfare movement needs to craft it's welfare take-backs as "reform" or create deceptive law like the Medicare prescription drug benefit [another welfare take-back]. They also re-word anti-welfare as tax cuts and spending cuts. Could you imagine a "Medicare Benefits Reduction Law" or a "Public Services Cessation Act" ever passing by referendum? Of course not!)

^^^^^^^^^ I’m in total agreement that democracies always slip into a social welfare role, but where you find this to be “progress” I defer to it as a weakening. Government always wants expanded power and finds new ways to create problems which it can then throw billions at to sustain (but never eliminate). It’s a never-ending battle between the painful self-reliance of the few and the guiltless self-aggrandizement of self-described leaders of the disenfranchised.